Best Of: Jill Scott / Riz Ahmed

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From W-H-Y-Y in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tonya Mosley. Today, musician Jill Scott.

She shares some of the lessons she learned from the legends who came before her, including the moment she first met Aretha Franklin and what the queen of soul asked her to do.

Go to the corner and get me two high dogs with cooked onions and mustard. And I went.

Also, actor Riz Ahmed talks about his new series, Bate. He plays a British Pakistani actor, auditioning to be the next James Bond.

When writing the script, he drew for moments in his own life. Like the time he got kicked out of a supermarket, the same week it was revealed he was in Star Wars.

And we get into a back-and-forth and I'm so frustrated at one point. I go, dude, I'm not shoplifting. I'm Star Wars, man. And they go, okay, this person is definitely crazy. And you're back. You're never coming back here.

That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.

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This is Fresh Air Weekend, I'm Tanya Mosley. My first guest today is singer, songwriter and actor, Jill Scott.

She released her six studio album to whom this may concern last month, her first new music in a decade.

Here's a single from the album called Pressha.

But do you believe it to hide me?

I'm not sure.

Don't sit right.

I wasn't de-stated.

I guess I guess I catered.

So much pressure to appear just like them.

The song recently went to number one on the Billboard Adult R&B Airplay chart.

And it's about the weight of being asked to look sound and move through the world a certain way and being desired in private but not claimed in public.

Jill Scott has been making music for more than 25 years.

The story goes that Questlove of the Roots first discovered her is part of Philadelphia's spoken word scene.

Her 2000 debut, Who Is Jill Scott?

Words and sounds, volume one, answered its own question with double platinum sales, three Grammy nominations and a sound that is helped to find neo-soul.

Since then, Scott has won three Grammys, written a best-selling book of poetry and built an acting career that has spanned from HBO's The Number One Ladies Detective Agency, BET Plus's First Wives Club, and the role of Sheila and Tyler Perry's Why Did I Get Married.

A character so beloved, Tyler Perry is bringing her back this year and why did I get married again for Netflix.

And Jill Scott, welcome to Fresh Air.

Thank you.

It's a pleasure to have you.

I feel the same way. I'm so happy to be here.

That song, Pressha, what a song for your first single in 13 years.

Yes.

You've been gone living life and doing your own thing and when you say you've been pining it, you've been wanting it, what do you mean?

Was that break intentional or was it also a mix of you just trying to find your way back in some way to get to that thing that you're talking about?

I've literally loved writing from the very first time I read Nikki Giovanni's poetry.

I loved it.

How old was that?

When was that?

I was, I think 12 or 13.

Uh-huh.

Loved it.

Never really saw myself on paper before.

I could smell the lotion between my grandmother's legs when she would break my hair, when I read Nikki Giovanni.

Like, I love that.

I want to write like that.

And when you say you want to write like that, I think for me one of the most powerful things about Nikki Giovanni is she, she made the ordinary so beautiful.

It was the place you wanted to be talking about the joy of killing a pregnant roach, you know?

Yes.

Yes, I know that joy.

There's actually a song on the album called Ode to Nikki.

That's right.

And what's really powerful about it is it's in the cadence of the way Nikki wrote.

I want to play a little bit of it and we'll talk a little bit more about it on the other side.

She is not trapped in a perpetual loop.

They are not doing what they are used to.

He is not sitting on the same concrete wishing.

She is a living, alive, cellistine prophecy.

He can actually taste his own vibrancy.

She is swaying to her symphony.

Rocking, rocking, her hammock.

Feeling the breeze.

Self-motivating.

Self-satisfactioning.

Wonderville curiosity.

Exciting.

Pages crumble.

Much pride.

Much humble.

Much bubble.

No more dumbing down for what?

For whom?

Exquisite views.

Intentional luxury.

Mind bending the spoon.

Complex simplicity.

Sympathical.

Beautiful beings.

Touched by their sun.

Redefining shining.

Vibrating sonically.

That was my guest, Jill Scott.

And that's a cut from her latest album.

To whom this may concern.

And that cut is called,

Oh, to Nikki.

And you were really young.

So you were about 12 or 13 when you first found out.

Do you remember what it was you were reading?

No.

I honestly don't remember what it was.

I should.

I remember the pictures.

And I remember how I felt.

It was a book of poetry.

But my English teacher named was Fran Danish.

She gave us a list of people to do essay about.

And I landed on Nikki Giovanni.

And I just thought it was probably like some Italian guy.

Some Italian lady.

Yes.

And I found this poet.

Ego tripping obviously.

You know, was was big for me,

particularly in the quote unquote neo soul era.

We were all discovering poets and having poetry slams.

In college, I tried to get into our class and couldn't.

Yeah.

Oh, I tried.

Couldn't get in that class.

I never actually had a chance to shake her hand.

You never matter.

I never matter.

But the impact is massive.

Let's talk a little bit about growing up in Philadelphia.

You grew up primarily with your mom and your grandmother in North Philly.

Yes.

And this is not always the case,

but the thing that I've been thinking about is some of the lessons that you learn

by being in a multi-generational home of women.

You're someone who exudes very much femininity

and softness, but also kind of a way of being.

You set this intention with every piece of music that you put out there.

What was your multi-generational household like?

Good question.

First of all, full of love and humor.

My mother and my grandmother both competed for my attention.

Yep.

Through humor.

Sometimes.

Yes.

Sometimes.

I've been beloved.

Okay.

So they competed for my attention.

My grandmother was born in 1917.

She had a whole bunch of stories.

Bunches and bunches of stories.

She's brown, so brown.

And her skin texture was like a soft peach.

Oh, stunning.

She looks very much like the actress.

I think her name is Wummi.

Oh, from centers.

Yes.

Uh-huh.

That's what my grandmother looked like.

She's the one that gave me God.

My grandmother.

She introduced you to God here.

Well, she also was single herself.

Yes.

But only in private.

I think I've heard you say she sounded like Mahalia Jackson.

Something like that.

It's just sincere.

What were the other ways that your mom and grandma tried to get your attention, compete for

your attention?

That's an interesting thing because typically it's the other way around.

The kid is trying to get the attention of the adults.

No.

My grandmother was in the front room.

My mother was in the back.

And I could go and visit one.

And then I had to go and visit the other.

And then go visit the other.

And that was my days.

You know, going back and forth.

They wouldn't come together.

Now they worked together beautifully in creating a home.

A home was very, very important to my grandmother and became very important to my mother as well.

We lived in North Philadelphia.

There were lots of ROD and T.S.s.

My mother fought them hand in nail.

Like literally.

Literally.

Literally.

Yes.

Yes.

They fought them hard.

And she won.

She got the house next door to us.

It had been abandoned.

It was one of the reasons why there was so much going on.

Got that house clean that house up.

Do you remember when she decided I'm going to buy that house next door and I'm going to

clean it up?

And what you thought as a young girl watching your mom do that?

I just thought it was dope.

These are the things I expect out of her.

My mother will make you appear pants, you know.

She could do that.

Make your great soup that will keep you full all day long, you know.

She could do that.

She started doing drywall with people.

You know, a way to make money but also to learn how to put up drywall.

And then she started learning how to put down hardwood floors and then some plumbing.

So she was hanging around some people that knew how to do some things.

Was this all in her day job because she was a dental hygienist, too, right?

Right.

For a while.

She was a dental hygienist till I was about 14.

And then, you know, after that it was, I'm going to do whatever I want.

And that was a little tough because we didn't know, you know, how we were eating.

But she did what she wanted to do.

And one of the things she wanted to do was clean up this house.

It was important to her.

And that's what she did.

Because all those rotons and then abandoned houses making it their way to your house.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Was there a lot of music in your home?

There was some.

Uh-huh.

There were nights when my mother wanted to talk and she would play Millie Jackson.

And we would list, uh, drink Man of Shepherds.

That was a thing.

What is that?

Man of Shepherds is like a Jewish wine.

I think it's, it's not very good.

It's very sweet.

And hold for you.

Uh-huh.

I don't know.

Maybe 15, 16.

Yeah.

But having a little Man of Shepherds and listening to Millie Jackson or to point her sisters.

My mother's music was very rooted in womanhood.

My grandmother's music was very rooted in Jehovah God.

And my music was rooted in like verses hip-hop, hip-hop, storytelling.

Yes.

Nicky Giovanni.

She's open a door.

I've never turned back.

Our guest today is Grammy Award-winning artist Jill Scott.

We'll be back after a short break.

I'm Tonya Mosley.

And this is Fresh Air Weekend.

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This is Fresh Air Weekend.

I'm Tanya Mosley.

Let's get back to my conversation with Grammy Award-winning singer and actress Jill Scott.

Her latest album is To Whom This May Concern.

When did you realize you could sing?

I think I always knew.

It was just mine.

This wonderful thing that will calm me down and give me peace and make me laugh and get

the feelings out.

How do you remember when other people?

Yes.

Yeah.

I was 9th grade.

I did Freshman Day and the initial audition, I had a drummer and it was me and a drummer.

We were doing theme from Mahogany and all the kids were like, oh, because it felt like

that.

Mr. Murphy, who gave me so much, did not like that and played the piano.

I was so disappointed because I really liked the fact that the kids went to all girls

school.

All the girls were like, yeah, that's cool, but he took it and played the piano.

I sang it from a different place.

It was so sincere.

I remember feeling so sincere about those words and then the place erupted.

It was quiet first and I finished the line and then silent and then that was it.

That was the moment like, oh, you like it too.

Because before then, you had been singing but just singing to yourself, not in front

of other people.

Not in front of other people.

Where would you sing?

Where my grandma sang in the tub.

And when you clean in, you know, or all my way to school, or, you know, on a bus or

every says while plain wrote, like, you know, everywhere.

Use this story that Questlove from the roots discovered you as part of the spoken

word seen in Philadelphia.

How do you remember it?

I was in a poetry reading.

I had been doing it quite a bit.

I had my feelings heard of my girlfriends were like, repoetry and I was like, okay.

So I wrote and my girlfriends were like, you're a poet.

And I was like, I'm a poet, like Nicky T. Avon.

I'm going to do it more so I did it more.

And started to make a little bit of a name for myself and then Questlove came to a poetry

reading.

I think he was DJing.

You might have been, I don't know.

But he was there and he asked me if I ever wrote songs.

And I was like, yeah, I do.

But I did.

I lied.

What was it in you in that moment that made you say, yeah, I can.

And how did that feel knowing that, oh, you, you might be able to enter this world?

I didn't really think about the world.

I just honestly enjoyed what I was doing.

And you mean there could be more of that?

Oh, I would like more of that.

So yeah, I went, you know, when he invited me to the studio to write a hook for them, sure.

I'll go.

I have been listening to Do You Want More faithfully.

It's one of my favorite albums still is to this day.

So, you know, this is a big deal to be asked by Questlove, you know, but it's also like

Philly.

Because this is the guy that played, you know, on the street corner.

Right.

You knew him at that time.

I didn't know him.

I wanted to.

I knew them.

I knew of them.

Yeah.

You know, but I don't, I don't necessarily assert myself in these places.

It has to be organic for me so that it's real.

So you entered that studio and then you started writing.

Yeah.

What is this song you got me was your first real song writing credit, a song that you

sang for the roots.

But the version that we heard was Erica Badu's version.

Take us back to that moment.

Did you record the track?

Yes.

It all happened in one day, like one afternoon.

I went to the studio, Sigma Sound, and Scott Storch and I were talking, hanging out.

It was that just for folks who don't know.

Scott Storch is a big time producer now, okay, big time.

And at the time he was playing keys for the roots.

So we go into the studio and it was very simple.

He started playing a melody.

I sang the words.

He said, can you record that?

And I said, okay, recorded it.

And we went to lunch.

We went to an Italian restaurant.

I kind of forgot all about it.

I don't know why, but I did.

You know, either they liked it or they didn't.

And they liked it.

So I heard through the grapevine.

I was told that they liked it, that they were going to use it.

Then I heard it was a single.

I was like, get some single.

Oh my God, that's crazy.

I can't believe this is happening to me.

And then I was on 22nd Street.

I was looking for like beauty supplies or walking by the beauty supply places.

And I heard the song and I was like, oh, this is the song.

And it wasn't my voice.

And I was like, what is cool?

And then I knew who it was.

You know, I listened to Luma.

I was like, that's Erica, if I do, that's Erica, if I do.

I made it.

So you were feeling like, why isn't that my voice?

You were feeling, oh my gosh,

Erica, if I do, is singing my words.

I got about 14 good seconds.

Wait a minute.

What happened?

That's not me.

And then I realized it was way bigger than that.

Like way bigger.

This is a door.

A door has opened.

You know, and Erica will tell you herself, she doesn't sing anybody else's music.

I didn't know that either.

So that knowing that, what does that mean to you?

Knowing that she doesn't sing anyone else's music.

But she was singing your words.

I'm telling you, it's really ridiculous.

Well, you eventually ended up turning.

Feeling fresh to death, I'm selfless.

Yes, yes.

Like, well, you eventually ended up touring with the roots.

And yes, then you were singing every night, every city that you went to.

You got me got a chance to learn and almost lost that job

because I had a manager who wanted to make money.

And it's not that I didn't want to make money.

But I'm seeing one hook on one song, you know what I mean?

How much can you really ask somebody to pay you to sing one hook?

And I'm getting an opportunity to see places I've never been.

I haven't traveled much, I've had a lot of money.

You know, but now I'm getting to go from city to city and see these venues.

And I'm performing in front of people.

And it's a lot more than poetry readings.

You know, Jill, your first album came out in 2000 when I was coming into myself as a woman.

And I just want to thank you for all of what you have put out in the world.

You've allowed me to see myself.

And it's a beautiful thing.

And I can't even, I don't even have the words to tell you.

I'm telling you, I really love this anti-life.

Yeah, I really, wherever I can help, I am into it, wherever I can help.

Especially when it comes to, I've learned this,

when somebody wants something from you, you give them a task.

If they handle the task and do it well, then you can proceed.

But other than that, you know, people talk a lot.

Oh, I want to do this, I want to be this, I want to go here.

Let me see what you do.

Do you do that?

Because I'm sure you have a lot of young artists and singers who come to you

because they want to, they want advice from you.

Is that what you do?

That's what I do.

Yeah.

Let me see what you do.

This is how I've learned to navigate.

What do you have them do?

Whatever I need them to do.

Yes.

Whether it is to learn an album or listen to an album,

whether it is a wreath of Franklin sent me to get her two hot dogs

with cooked onions and mustard.

You met her, you told her you loved her.

Yes.

And then she said, what?

Go to the corner and get me two hot dogs with cooked onions and mustard.

And I went.

Yes.

OK, I think I had the number one album in the country at the time.

Yes.

And I went to the corner and I got those hot dogs and I brought them back.

And I, you know, just waited.

I don't think she ate them.

What did that teach you?

Well, I would once they'd be nicer to people.

But too.

You got to earn your stripes.

Then I was like, oh, you know, I want

it her to be nicer to me, to embrace me, to tell me that, you know,

give me some advice and hold my hand a little bit.

But that's not what happened, OK?

Now I'm in a, now I am that woman to a certain degree.

And now I just have a task for you.

I want to see what you're going to do.

Don't waste it.

Don't waste my time.

Don't waste your time.

It's too valuable.

And I like this.

This is, this is the auntie portion she's a little tougher.

And I like that part.

This is good for me.

It's good for you, too, if you want it.

Absolutely.

If you want it, I'm very grateful to be a part of so many people's maturation.

There's nothing wrong with being mature.

There is nothing wrong with growing up.

Jill Scott, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you.

Thank you so much for your time and for your music and your art.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Jill Scott's new album is called To Whom This May Concern.

OK, here's a setup for Bate, a new prime video series.

A struggling British Pakistani actor

lands the audition of a lifetime as James Bond.

Work gets out.

The internet goes wild.

And suddenly, his life starts to resemble the very character

he's auditioning to play.

He's in a chase sequence, except he's not chasing a villain.

He's chasing acceptance.

The series is part spy thriller, part family comedy,

part psychological unraveling, and entirely

unlike anything else on television right now.

My guest today, Riz Ahmed, created it, wrote it, and produced it,

and stars as the lead character Shah Latif.

Bate opens with Shah in a tuxedo doing a James Bond screen test.

He's devonaire, commanding, in control, James Bond personified.

And then he forgets his lines.

Tell me, when it's just you all alone, how do you live with yourself?

Do you even know who you are?

Sorry.

Sorry, Helm.

It's all good, it's all good.

It's just right around a bit of a schedule.

Yes, that's why I was thinking,

quick reset back to what's on there at this time.

How are you blowing this audition?

I know the speech.

I know it, I know it.

Yeah, you f***ing up every time.

Yeah.

I know it.

I know it.

I know it.

I know it.

You f**k up every time at the exact same moment.

What is this, a prank show?

Wearing a hit in the camera.

It's funny.

I just have a very particular process.

I've got my head around it now.

I'm ready.

Sorry guys, we just have...

Yeah, well, just a minute...

Sorry.

How was your weekend?

That's good, thanks.

How was yours?

Great.

What did you do?

Thanks, Jim.

You're my son.

But I just...

Stop it.

Sorry.

You know what?

I didn't want to see you.

I had to convince them, so this is on me.

I've got a confession to make.

I'm light-headed from fasting.

It's the holy, muslim month.

It's called Ramadan.

It involves no eating and drinking.

In the day, I'm light-headed from a bit of a cultural understanding.

Well, I've just seen you drink apple juice.

Six takes in a row.

I tried.

It's just a shame you didn't.

No.

This moment is the beginning of a wild ride

as we watch this character unravel.

And Riz has said,

Embedded in this show is a hunger to belong.

And what it costs someone when they finally get close to the thing

that they've been chasing their whole lives.

Riz is an Emmy Award-winning and Oscar-nominated actor

who is known for many roles, including The Night of,

an HBO crime drama, and which he plays a college student

whose life shatters after being accused of murder.

And sound of metal, he played a punk drummer

grappling with sudden hearing loss.

And in the long goodbye, he's part of a British Pakistani family

whose ordinary Sunday is shattered by a far-right militia.

Riz Ahmed earned an Oscar for Best Live Action Short Film.

This spring, his adaptation of Shakespeare's Hamlet

opens in theaters, and Riz, welcome back to Fresh Air.

Thank you so much for having me back.

What did Bond, in particular, represent to you

as a British Pakistani kid growing up in London?

Yeah, well, I wanted to do with the first part

what you said first, which is Riz playing character playing himself.

And if you don't mind, I want to say something that you said to me

just before we start recording the interview.

I said, look, how did you like the show?

And you said, I feel like I'm Shaw.

You said that, Tanya.

You said, I feel like, damn, I'm that person.

If you don't mind me saying, so many people have been saying that,

and yes, there's a lot of me and Shaw,

but I think actually there's a lot of shine all of us,

more than we like to admit.

And really, the show is about this feeling that life sometimes feels like one big audition.

We all feel like we have to perform this version of ourselves

that knows the script that, as you said, is commanding a decisive and desirable.

The best public version of ourselves, we're performing that.

But actually, the gap between that public self and the massive vulnerability of our private selves

is often huge.

And that's true, whether you're talking about how your life is actually going

versus the Instagram post you just got to put up or that you saw of someone else,

or how professional and put together you're seeing on a Zoom call,

when actually you're not wearing any pants, just out of the frame.

And so, just on to your question, I feel like I'm playing,

I'm trying to draw on a feeling that is personal to me,

but I think it's personal to a lot of people.

And then that extra component, though, of playing the man, James Bond,

he is considered the ultimate in every way.

Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

I mean, the show isn't really about James Bond,

but James Bond is a very important symbol,

because he is the ultimate symbol of success.

Yes, sure, as an actor, he is, you know,

a pinnacle of cinematic achievement.

And yet, it's also just, you know, for any of us,

he's this archetype of like, like I said, decisiveness, desirability,

being in control, being unflappable, or being invulnerable.

And so, I wanted the character of James Bond to serve as this symbol

of aspiration, this unattainable kind of self,

that Shah is hunting down almost.

And in chasing this symbol, is he abandoning himself?

Is he abandoning where he's from?

Is he abandoning his family?

Has he forgotten actually who he really is?

And so, the show is trying to deal with that.

And I think that that's something that, you know,

we all kind of go through where we're often pulled between

the people we were and the people we want to be.

And actually, the healthy equilibrium is probably somewhere in the middle, you know?

Probably that thing you want to be is like an attempt to escape yourself.

And that thing you were is maybe, you know, a version of yourself

you need to evolve out of.

But we often feel pulled between those two polaris.

We're listening to my conversation with Riz Ahmed.

He stars in the new Prime Video Series bait,

as well as Hamlet, a modern reimagining of Shakespeare's classic,

set in London, South Asian community, and theaters April 10th.

We'll hear more of our conversation after short break.

This is Fresh Air Weekend.

This message comes from Comcast.

Nothing brings people together quite like Team USA

at the Olympic Winter Games,

from NBC Universal's iconic storytelling

to the innovative technology across Xfinity and Peacock.

Comcast brings the Olympic Games home to America,

sharing every moment with millions.

When Team USA steps on to the world stage,

people are not just watching, they're cheering together.

This winter, everyone's on the same team.

Comcast, proud partner of Team USA.

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Don't actually ask them to do those things,

just let them get the job done well.

Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust,

find a pro for your projects at Angie.com.

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This is Fresh Air Weekend.

I'm Tonya Mosley.

Let's get back to my interview with Riz Ahmed.

He stars in the new Prime Video Series bait.

He plays a British Pakistani actor,

auditioning to be the next James Bond.

How long did it take for you to work on this concept,

this idea, and come to what is a genre,

bending series?

Oh, man, I started kind of scrambling down ideas

for this show in 2014.

I started doing that because they said that

gap between my public and private self started becoming so big

and so stressful.

They actually started feeling kind of hilarious.

Give you an example.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

The week that it got revealed that, you know,

okay, I'm in the new Star Wars

and they released a cast photograph of us all on set.

That same week I got banned from my local supermarket

for suspected shoplifting because my washing machine had broken.

Only clean clothes I had were flip flops,

bright pink swim shorts and bright green puffer jacket

and a tank top.

I'm dragging a massive bag of dirty clothes around

to the laundromat.

I remember it's my brother's birthday.

I haven't got him a cake.

I go to Tesco's.

I'm trying to get him a cake.

They got no cake.

I buy a frozen pizza with birthday candles.

I'm a checkout.

It seems like an insane thing.

I'm buying anyway.

It's like, yeah, but the candles and pizza.

I'm dressed insanely.

I've got this massive laundry bag.

And I forgot to beep it properly on the checkout

and another pizza.

And it goes off and security like, yeah.

You look, this person looked kind of shady.

And we get into a back and forth.

And I'm so frustrated at one point.

I go, dude, I'm not shoplifting.

I'm a Star Wars man.

And they go, okay, this person is definitely crazy.

And you're banned.

You're never coming back here.

It's just an example about like the messy chaos

of who we really are versus the image of success

that's somewhere out there publicly.

And again, that's not just true for an actor.

That's true of everyone who's posting

their best selfie on Instagram, you know?

So I started jotting down these little stories

to try and just process them and make sense of them.

I knew there was something in these contradictions

and juxtapositions that was about me making sense

of my own experience.

But also that just felt kind of universal.

If I could just get a handle on it.

And so I spent many years jotting down these ideas.

And then it was when I met my co-show runner, Ben Carlyen.

We put the writers rooms together and all this kind of stuff.

We realized actually the perfect symbol for this show

is James Bond.

And that was partly also because my name had been mentioned

in relation to James Bond casting and some articles

and stuff over the years.

So in the meta kind of spirit of this show,

we're trying to be as meta as possible

and have fun with that.

Actually, that's a perfect symbol.

It's a perfect symbol for a character

who wants to be anything other than himself.

Who would he want to be?

He'd want to be James Bond.

I'm Marvel at the multi-nature of this series.

As I'm watching it, I'm just thinking,

how did he pitch this?

How does one pitch something like this and get it greenlit?

Because it's so well done.

But it also can't really be explained in one line.

It's interesting you say it can't be explained in one line

because throughout the whole process,

we struggled with that, right?

And then when we got to the very end of the process,

we actually found a way of summing up the whole show

in one word.

And that word is bait.

Yes, and what does that mean?

I want to unpack it for a minute, right?

So bait is a British slang word,

which means being blatant and in your face

and attention-seeking.

There we go.

That's what my character is doing for much of the series.

Bait is an online term about trolling

or provoking people online.

That's a big part of our show as well, that element.

Bait in Urdu means your loyalty or your allegiance.

And that is something that Shah is contending with,

home versus ambition, east versus west.

Bait in Arabic and Hebrew means home.

And so much of this show is a love letter to home

and it's about family and how far do you travel from home

in order to please home or help home, you know?

And then of course there's a big spy thriller element

to our show and bait is something that's used as part of a trap.

And so it's a weird thing where only in retrospect

we realize like, oh my god, we accidentally stumbled

on the perfect title for this that actually communicates

the entire layer cake of this show.

It is all those flavors and the word bait means all those things.

Riz, let's talk a little bit about Shakespeare

because it wasn't really your thing as a kid

until a teacher I hear introduced you to Hamlet.

What do you remember about that first encounter with the play

and what did it kind of unlock for you?

Yeah, it's really interesting.

I'm like, many people felt like Shakespeare is there,

pitching me everything I'm on the outside of.

It doesn't belong to me, it's stuffy, it's elitist.

I got a government assisted place to a private school

where I felt like an outsider for many different reasons.

And I was lucky enough to have an English teacher called Mr. Roseblade

who was a white Jewish middle aged man

from a different place in the UK.

I thought we had nothing in common, but he spoke fluent Punjabi

and he brought me Hamlet and said, you know, this thing,

this story, this character, it's at the heart of the establishment

that you feel so alienated from.

In many ways, but have a read of it.

You might recognize yourself in this character

and I did, like millions of people have, right?

Hamlet being a character who feels out of place.

Hamlet himself feels like an outsider.

He feels like he doesn't belong.

Like no one understands.

And it really spoke to me as a teenager.

But more than that, what I realized was, how long is it?

This family story set in, you know, medieval Denmark.

Actually, is exactly like growing up in Wembley.

This is about who you can and can't marry.

This is about everyone squabbling over the family business.

This is about the reality and lived experience

of spirituality, ghosts and spirit possession,

which is par for the course.

It's part of our lived experience culturally.

And this is also actually kind of pivots

on a story point of marrying one's sister-in-law

if your brother dies, which is a cultural tradition.

I think it's actually a Jewish tradition

and an ancient Hindu and South Asian tradition.

I've actually grown up with people who've had to do that.

If their brother has died tragically, they themselves are unmarried

with the consent, obviously, of their sister-in-law

and of the conversation that they have, they go,

shall we get married?

It's a way of protecting the orphans and protecting the widow.

So this didn't feel like this antiquated, kind of,

slightly out of touch piece to me.

I was like, if you put it in my community, in my experience,

this is right now.

This is completely vivid and completely urgent.

And it was then at the age of 17

that I very precautionsly had the idea that, man,

I want to make a movie of this one day

and I want to set it in that place.

And in doing so, I hope to kind of render this story

more vividly and a more urgent, modern way

than maybe I've seen it and make it just make it feel real

because all those things are so real in that environment.

What did you have to kind of work through to get to this adaptation

because you could have just played Hamlet

and put on a movie adaptation of Hamlet as it is?

You know, I really believe that the amount of time

it took was kind of quite divinely guided in a way.

That's because I feel that this is the moment for this story.

You know, it's a story, Hamlet is a story,

and it's a character who is grieving the illusion

that the world was ever a fair place.

And I think that's how we're all feeling now.

We're all grieving and reeling from this realization

that, okay, I knew the world was unfair,

but now the shameless brazen unfairness of it

is just kind of laid bare.

And it's about grieving that illusion

and it's also about feeling powerless

in the face of how unfair it is

and it's actually feeling kind of complicit in it

and guess it about it.

And that's what the play is about.

And I think that this is when it was meant to be told,

but for us creatively,

the part that we were struggling to unlock

is how do you not make this feel just like a Shakespeare performance

and a poetry recital?

How do you not make this feel like a kind of self-congratulatory

like actor wants to take on the classic?

And actually, that was the opposite

of how we wanted it to feel.

And it really took us meeting a Neil Carrier, the director.

And it was after I collaborated with him

on the short film The Long Goodbye,

for which he won an Oscar,

that I was like, oh, I think we know how to do this.

We need a director who's worked a lot in rap music videos.

We need a director who has actually

can render poetry in a very raw way

and give us raw action in a very poetic way.

And that's what he did in that short film.

And that's what he does in his films.

And we connected and we had a long conversation

about how this has to feel like music, you know?

There's the classic line from Hamlet

to be or not to be, that is the question.

And in your version,

Hamlet delivers this famous solidically,

basically speeding through the rain

at a hundred miles an hour.

And I want to play a little bit of it.

Let's listen.

To be or not to be?

That is the question.

Whether it's nobler in the mind to suffer,

the sings and arrows of outrageous fortune

and what to take arms against the sea of troubles.

But by opposing and dying to sleep.

No more.

Or by asleep to say we are not.

Take a thousand natural shots that flashes air to

the consummation that felt we need to be wish to die.

To sleep.

To sleep, we chose to dream.

Oh, there's the rub.

That is my guest, Riz Ahmed,

and his latest film adaptation of Hamlet.

And Riz, you've talked about this before,

but for most of us,

we're kind of taught that this speech is about suicide.

Basically, Hamlet is weighing whether life is worth living.

And you came to believe something entirely different

is happening in those lines.

What do you think Hamlet is actually asking?

Yeah, I don't think it's about suicide at all.

It's about fighting back against oppression,

even if you know that you will lose everything,

possibly even your life.

It's actually very clear in black and white in the text,

the active verb here is about taking up,

it's about to take up arms.

You know, what he's saying is,

there's two choices.

You can carry on being,

and it's very interesting.

He says, be.

Not living. Just be.

You can exist.

And you can exist.

And just suffer all the oppression and all the unfairness

and all the injustice of the world

and all the insults that life throws at you.

Or you can fight back.

But fighting back might mean you will no longer be.

So it's really about whether we are willing to pay the price

of true resistance, you know.

And it's actually a very, very radical speech.

It's very confronting.

It's tackling a taboo subject really,

you know, the idea of taking up arms and resisting oppression

and the powers that be, it's dangerous idea.

Actually, you can get you arrested,

you can discuss that openly to this day.

I mean Shakespeare was a wordsmith.

He's working in verse and rhythm,

and I'm thinking about your background in rap

and your politically charged album,

and I'm wondering,

did that hip-hop instinct shape at all

how you heard and deliver these lines?

Yeah, very, very much so, very much so.

Here's my take on it.

A lot of people find a block with Shakespeare

because they find it difficult to understand what the words mean.

I totally get it.

I often feel the same way.

Here's the thing,

people in Shakespeare's day themselves

did not speak like that.

They didn't say that.

Shakespeare made up like between three and five thousand new words.

I think there's some estimates.

The word eyeball is a word that he made up.

You imagine hearing that for the first time?

Or what ball?

And I, what?

He made that up.

And one thing that he played with all the time was rhythm.

Rhythm, rhythm, rhythm, rhythm.

And so, in the same way that when I listen to

some of my favorite rappers, new songs,

I don't know what they say the first time around,

but I am totally wrapped.

I'm totally leaning in.

I'm engaged.

I feel it emotionally.

It's the same way.

Your first experience of this thing is supposed to be like music.

You didn't catch all of the words.

But that word there felt weird enough to make you sit up.

And what you're supposed to do is receive an electric charge

of rhythm and melody and musicality,

just like rap music.

But that's not the actual experience of these plays.

So I wish more people spoke about Shakespeare in that way

because to me it is much more like music

than it is like in English class.

Did you come to this understanding as that 17-year-old

whose teacher introduced you?

Did you see that connection?

Because you were kind of deep in rap at that moment at that time.

Yeah, it's such an interesting connection to me.

You know, I think it's an inevitable one to make really.

If you're interested in poetry, if you're interested in lyricism,

if you're interested in rhythm, like Shakespeare is doing that,

he's playing in all those arenas.

And so it was clear to me very early on.

But something that isn't also lost on me

is at the same time I was studying under Rob Claire

and doing a Master's in Classical Acting,

which is essentially just a Master's in just in Shakespeare performance.

That's when I started on the rap battle circuit in London

and things like Jumper from Battle Scars and Bombay Bronx

and competing in all these championships.

And so it did somehow in my mind feel like it's one thing.

As you've mentioned, Riz, you grew up in Wembley and Northwest London.

The son of Pakistani parents who immigrated in the 1970s.

Take me back to when you were a teenage Riz

and you were DJing and rapping.

You started on Pirate Radio.

How did you discover Pirate Radio?

So I grew up in the, you know, in the 90s in the UK.

I grew up in Wembley.

Wembley is both, you know, the site of England's greatest triumph

in the 1966 World Cup.

And also in the shadow of that stadium,

I'd go every Sunday to Wembley Market, which is where you'd buy,

you know, by the Chinese Spring Roll and the immigrant kind of food stalls

and the fake design and clothes that we'd buy and sell over there,

you know, amongst that kind of working class and immigrant community.

And Pirate Radio Station culture was just everywhere, you know.

Yes, you'd have, you know, the BBC Radio stations

and the other London stations, but in between all those airwaves,

the one that's all the FM frequencies that were not spoken for,

you'd hear faint crackle and then the voice of MCs or microphones

that were broadcasting from the roofs of the housing projects locally.

And that's Pirate Radio culture.

So it was there that I was kind of exposed more and more to drum and bass and garage,

particularly when I was too young to actually go to the raves themselves.

You know, as I was old enough to kind of try and hack off whatever faint facial hair I had

and try and like grow it back.

I think I, you know, I was at the raves themselves and, you know, I just love the music.

I love the specificity of London's musical subculture and the UK,

I think does that so well, you know, because of the clash and the mix of different cultures

and different sounds and influences.

So yeah, I was exposed to it and then I started doing it myself,

both at raves and on Pirate Radio.

And I remember when I went to Oxford and I got in there,

I felt like I'd lost something, I'd lost this thing that I loved.

And so I was eager to kind of keep it going and that's when I started, you know,

promoting my own club nights and it became a really invaluable place

where every week without fail, I could hon my craft, I could try out new lyrics,

I could gain confidence as a performer.

And I think it helped me not just as an MC, but as an actor.

Well, Riz, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me and thank you for the wonderful conversation.

Riz Ahmed stars in a reimagining of Hamlet,

which opens in theaters in April and the new Prime Video Series Bate.

Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden.

Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger.

Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.

With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Moosley.

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