Best Six Nations Ever?

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1:01In 15 years, he's a billionaire. This is Total Wolf, Formula One's most powerful team boss, and the breakout star of Drive to Survive. This week on Good Bad Billionaire, how Total Wolf made his billions. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts. That's it. Six Nations wrapped. Wales got the win. France got the championship. What an iconic finale. To a brilliant, brilliant tournament this year. Lauren is here. Alex Baywater. How are we, Alex? Yeah, good. Thank you. Scott Baldwin. Good, thank you. Yeah, this is our review of the tournament. We're going to keep it up beat. Might be a little bit of politics at the end, but if you want that fix, there's an interview recorded with Dave Redden post-match, against Italy, which is in the feed. Right then. Who wants to start with their Six Nations highlight? I'll start because I worry that others will have the same highlight, which is obviously the final moment, the final kick,

2:02ice cold by Ramos to slot it. I just pictured the Ireland squad looking on, knowing if he misses this, the title's ours. Slots it, and there are wild celebrations in Paris. Unless, yeah, Alex Baywater, who wasn't actually doing the match report, but would have been surrounded by other journalists, which is an absolute nightmare. When the titles on the line during the final kick of the game, that could involve a massive rewrite. But what a moment. Even the lead up to it, the fact that Pollock was shushing the crowd after the Freeman try, then was responsible for the knockout. I mean, who was theatre? Entertainment. And that was rugby on the weekend. Yeah, I was at the start of France, and it was just incredibly stressful from a journalistic perspective, but also just an amazing sporting occasion to witness life. The drama, the twos and throws, like just a privilege to be there, really. I think it is worth clarifying, because some of our listeners go,

3:02well, why is it stressful? Just explain that article you will read on the BBC Sport Daily Mail website will drop within seconds of the final whistle. Yeah, I mean, this is a bit sort of journalism nuance, but just, yes, the work that I had to do, I had to file it on 70 minutes. So you had to file what was it? Yeah, so to hit newspaper deadlines, obviously, it was an 8-10 kickoff UK time, 9-10 French time. Not the match report. My colleague had to do the match report, and then retop it, yeah. But so I was doing player ratings. And I had to send them at 70 minutes. So it has to be with them, assembling, so make print, the old-school print. Yeah, so the only change they can make is just the top of it. So if you read an article 80% of it's been written in 70 minutes, and then you just have to change the French way. Yeah, so for example, my player rating for Thomas Rammers, I can't remember, I think, you know, I'm off 7 or 8, whatever it was. But like, it didn't mention the last kick.

4:03It's good. This is a question. Obviously, you can change it then a second time around, but to hit the initial print deadlines on an evening game like that, I mean, it's, yeah, it's mental. That's why it's just incredibly stressful. That's a bit of an anomaly. That's quite right, I think, to have a 70-minute deadline. And just because the France kick-offs are so late, and you're thinking about the Sunday paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Usually, you're writing something. It's in sight into the idea of how stressful the situation was for you. Is that your highlight as well? Of the whole tournament, I mean, as Lauren said, you know, there's so many to pick from, which is why it was the greatest situations. The game on Saturday night was one obviously, Reese Carriage Troubles. Just one, please, just one, never. Because other people have come up with it. Okay, come on. My one is Italy's win over England. Come on. Yeah, like it. And the reason I've picked that is because I think what made this tournament the best one was not just because there were so many incredible sort of individual moments, but the fact that the tournament's really leveled up,

5:04you know, if Italy can be England, I think that's just brilliant for the tournament that it shows how competitive it is now across the board. Obviously, Italy for so long couldn't buy a win. England is supposed to be the juggernaut powerhouse of the competition. And I just thought that was an amazing, and I was at that game as well. And the atmosphere when they booted the ball out was incredible. My one was Scotland beat in England. You look at a group and it would have been quite easy after that first game to the group not to have stayed tight and connected. There was a lot of chat about Gregor being out there and just the performance in Aliens, but then also Tuapalato's interview post. I thought was really, really strong in how they backed their group and their coaches together. I thought, and then you look at how they kicked on through the campaign. It probably shown that the first game didn't reflect where they are as a group, but what it did show, and you go to the Wales game when Scotland beat Wales, it was they know to win ugly now,

6:05which they have and previously known. So I think that was a massive, massive tuning point for them mentally. Mahin, well, I'm going to have to revise mine because I deliberately avoided one because I thought you'd pick it up on it. Carey. Yeah. Yeah, that was a close second for me. Just the most shareable moment in the era of Virals and the era where Gregor needs to cross over to the site of one of the greatest front row drives of all time. And I don't know. I just love it. I'm not smiling. I'm thinking about it. What do you think of it as a front row? Do you think I make too much of it or not enough of it? I think we'll reach this maybe a little bit because reach to be fair has them quite regularly for Sarasons. Reach has big barnstorm in runs and he is an ex-factor player, an absolute powerhouse. I remember being in camp with him and he had 15 mill studs on. I was like, mate, you can't with them to play. You need 18s, but it'll affect my ballcarian. And I was like, mate, they're three millimetres. And just those little things will be.

7:06That would have been work gone against him in the scrum because you wouldn't have been able to get much purchase. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, okay. But it is one thing doing it club level. And you see, maybe see it more often in Super Rugby. I think it's another thing doing it on an international stage after a public dropping as well. Like he had. He's clearly now in an environment that can get the best sort of him. And at that moment reflected all of that, didn't it? Yeah, and I think that's probably where, and they spoke about this around Steve and his connection with players and understanding what makes players tick. And I've always sought from, I was only in one or two campaigns with Reese. He's a very different character. But that can, if you can get him on board, he isn't as we've seen this campaign. He is an X-Factor player and a massive point of difference for Wales over the last five games. He's been huge for us. So to see him can drink and I would say it was a close sec. The coaching head on, I look at the group against this, this Scotland win. But from a pure meme perspective, I suppose,

8:08it's got to be Carrie's runners now. And I've just got to drop one more, which summarises Welsh rugby to a tee. Half-time, Wales Italy. The finest, most relaxing 40 minutes of rugby of experience in three or four years. I just walk up for a little break to just enjoy the fact that I've decompressed completely and a friend by Matthew, who will be listening, sort of callers me and says, Wales a 21L app, right? You know how bad Welsh rugby has been for the past three or four years? He goes, as I was wrong mate, how bad are Italy? That's so, that's so well. It reminds me a bit of, there's a, well, Phil Steele says this story quite well. He was in a bar after Wales Grand Slam. I might have been 2013, 33-year-game and somebody just turns him and goes, we'll never get a taxi home now. It's a mindset.

9:10By 10, that's the highlight. Should we digest Wales's win against Italy and then look further deeper into the campaign as a whole? Scott, with your coaching hat on, that first half was it just the bounce of the ball literally and metaphorically all went in Wales's favour? Or did you see significant improvements? Tell me about what you saw in that game, Wales. I think there's been huge improvements, specifically, defensively, and Dave Jenkins spoke about it after the game. Something they really value was the hustle off the ball. Now, there was a moment in the first half, Men and Chelo was down the short side and Zamit just works back, covers that tackle. There was multiple ones in the second half and I heard a lot of people saying around Italy dimplay well. Italy had a lot of entries into our 22 and ended up five metres out multiple times and there was a desperation at which there has been probably since the Scotland game. Not just from the front five, from the back row,

10:10Ellis me holding a mall up over the line, scrambled tackles on edges. Italy had loads of entries and multiple opportunities. Another day they score those tries and there was a point, I think it was the one Ellis me holding at 59 minutes. I think it was 31-12 at that point. And I remember I was in a box of the stadium and saying, if Italy score here, this is going to be really tight because last 20 minutes, the second half was probably a flip of the first. We had a lot of entries, a lot of opportunity. But that desperation was huge and I think when you look at belief and the psychological growth they've had from Scotland into Ireland into the weekend, that was the performance Steve's been talking about. He hasn't been talking about results, internally the obviously will have been, but externally it's performance, performance, performance. And I think he got exactly what he wanted on Saturday, both sides of the board. Can I just push back on that just from an obvious reply? Why isn't that desperation, that belief not there

11:11at all times when playing international rugby? And I know it sounds like I'm just a chef making, but I think you can explain properly what is the difference in mindset sometimes. Well, it's like anything. It's like throwing a ball into a line out. You go in and you've been flying in two, three games. You're an auto-pilot. You know, I think when you get there, just being a muscle man, we're going through getting there throwing the ball in. If you've had a game where whether it was your fault or the opposition's being good, that then will subconsciously get into your psyche. And when you look at the Scotland performance, that's probably the first time since Steve's been in his role where they're reviewing that, that should have been a win. And they know that as players then, then that transfers to the island game. When you're reviewing the island game, refor would pass away from potentially being within three points with a couple of minutes to go. That's a referee in decision. That's not a performance reflection. So then you take that into the Italy week. So they've built against Scotland, who put 50 points on France.

12:12They've built against Ireland, who other than the game in France at the start of the six nations have gone on to be the juggernaut we know they are. And we're within a whisper of them if that forward pass is called. You then build in thinking, you've got your bit about you because Italy will always challenge I felt. They will challenge our wide channels more than Ireland did because Ireland kind of come front door locked, which fed into our defence and our confidence built. Then going into that Italy game, there was a belief there. We started fast and we just kept building on that momentum. And I thought our big players stood up in that, that game against Italy in big moments, just got like a wane right that. Like you had no right to bust through the score they're trying. But he was intent and everything he'd done and his confidence was there then to ride the tackle, get out of it and go through. And I think it's the same defensively when you're looking and there's that it's not at desperation. It's probably the wrong word, but it's the understanding of the impact it has in that moment. I'm just giving that a little bit more.

13:13I also think it's not just about work written out at it. It's actually taking time to build foundations in defence. Again, used to a defensive system. Again, used to a new set piece coach, for example, in Paul James coming in. Again, used to new combinations. You've seen for that, you know, Eddie James and Joe Hawkins finally have a run of stats together. And I get and Scott can pick up on this. But the balance of the pack, are you seeing the likes of late crack, no, carry, carry in? And then, you know, there's been more mobile, like, you know, like James, both Francis freeing them up to hit rucks. Yeah, making the big parts of the game, the big parts of the game. Look at Dave Jenkins, the work rate that he's gone through. It's great that Aaron Wayne, right there, we can carry, can have these carries, but they can only do that. If there's other people, hit in 30 plus rucks a game and Tom Francis, locking the scrum, I think Tom Francis has been a massive positive for this group. As much as Paul James, oh, Paul James's mindset would have been,

14:14we're going to scrum, scrum for panties, we're scrumming for outcomes. And just hearing that difference in language in and around the environment consistently, naturally feeds into the players. And I look back to my career when I was playing. A coach can make a six out of 10 if you're looking at eight out of 10, just from how their messaging is to you and how their delivery is. And I think that's where Steve's been brilliant this campaign, as he's constantly been building up through performance. Yeah, I wanted to flag Tom Francis. I think he's the underrated asset that's been brought here. He is in the prime of his career, playing second division rugby, but what a call to bring him back. And I know you only played 30 minutes on the weekend, but he's been so important, isn't he? Just having him in and around the environment, though, is a big thing, because you've got someone with 70 caps. He's won Grand Slam, he's won six nations. He's in and around the environment then. Again, you had Paul James in, who's been in, I know it's not, he's not a player now, but his mindset will always be as a winner, winner, winner. And those little things,

15:16little conversation, microcharts of how we can go after teams. They probably haven't added in there, because they're talking about how do we survive? How do we do X? How do we do Y? When these players are coming in, thinking, well, no, this is how we win. It's just a different language around where they are now, from where they were first game of the six nations. Yeah, I think the increase in physicality has been a really big one for me in the last three games. I know in the autumn, they played against some incredibly tough opposition, but I was watching some of those games, thinking I don't actually see how Wales can compete up front against some of these teams. But fair play, they've shown a lot of physicality in the Scotland, Ireland, and Italy games. I thought the Italy match showed, as Lauren alluded to, they're like a real increase in how well coached they are, and how that's paid off. They accuracy off their starter plays, like they're rolling more, tried the way in right try that Scott alluded to. I thought that showed a real level of detail that seems to be coming through.

16:17And just the final point I'd like to make, I think Scott said there about, you know, coaching can make a six-hour 10 player into an eight-hour 10 player. I loved that when Dan Edwards scored the drop goal, how he sort of ran back, punched the air, said a load of words that you can't say on this pop cast. But I just thought that showed that there's confidence, a bit of confidence now in these players, and I've never been an international player, but I've reported on seeing a lot of players that have struggled with confidence, and I've conversely seen what confidence can do to a player. And I think it's understandable that perhaps that confidence has been low in Wales, given what's happened in the last two or three years, but hopefully that can be the start of the players playing with a bit of confidence, because it can make a huge difference. I mean, maybe a former hooker is in the person to ask how tough that drop goal was. I meant to as hooky post-match, but it was all a bit rushed on Saturday. When asked Steve Tandy, he said, you know, for the first three moments, I was thinking, what the heck are you doing? But then, what a strike.

17:18Again, it's all down to confidence, isn't it? And I look back and people mention around what changed. I don't care what anyone says. They have 100% going into our Scotland week, because Steve, obviously, understanding Scotland the way he did. They have 100% but more than emphasis on defence. It's black and white. You can see this spacing around the rack, and just they look more connected, easier making decisions. And that can breed into your attack, because naturally, the best attacks now aren't there. It's not the structure. You've got three phases, probably off a line now, to a scrim to score if you don't. It becomes about winning collisions. And as Alex said, then, you look at the collision winners, we've had over the last three games in Carrey, Derby, Wainwrights, Eddie James, Zammett. Like, they are X-Factor players. You just need to give them one-on-ones. Now, that all comes with momentum. And when you've got someone like Thomas Williams, then, who is, like, world class at making those right decisions, picking the right players, that's where we've got our entries.

18:19But I also don't think we overplayed in those last three games, but we were really clinical, and we got into those spaces in the 22. That's a big thing for me. But coming back to the drop goal, again, I just think it's a confidence thing. Like, he probably doesn't hit that two weeks before. Yeah, it is. He may be not even play in, because Castelo had such a good game against Scotland. So, one end to the tournament has been for him, Matt and Johnson, even called that moment one of the highlights of his six nations. Can you give some context into Derby Lake? Where do you see him in the standing of international hookers? No. I would say after the six nations, I think he's either form hooker in the six nations, personally. And I'd say he's up there with Dan Shea. That is different, different point the difference like Dan Shea's ability to play in the wide channels. But I think Derby has that, what I've liked to Derby is Derby has always had the ability to go front door, running to a brick wall and making meter. But I think with the subtleties, the way the shape they look into bring into the game now is going to create the ability to give him space

19:20either side of the defender way. He can look to get into, which is something probably which hasn't been focused on with him. But the biggest thing for me with Derby is he come under a lot of, a lot of flag probably after that first game and wrongly so. And I think he just managed that and come through and what it's shown is how good a leader he is. I'm going to interrupt you. Do you remember me and you were sharing a pint in Durban after an offsprays game? Three years ago and we got deep into Derby Lake and you were telling me like how much of a ceiling you had and how late it would have been that he'd gone into the hooker position and how much work he had. But you were like, I mean, you were a couple deep by now. But you were, yes, I was a couple of deep tactics, right? But you were convinced. But you're not this morning. You were convinced by his potential and you saw that he was quite heavily criticised from not being acting up with the darts early doors. But I remember you saying, no, if he can and he will, you said, but it's a long journey for him

20:21because you were saying, he's three or four years behind the curve in terms of line-outs and he's got there, is he? Yeah, I remember when I left the offsprays to go to Harlequins and having the conversation with Andrew Melwood at the time around you're going to go through some pain with this kid but you're going to get the reward from it and he has to give in that confidence of you are going to play the next eight games. So don't worry if you have a game where you lose a couple. It's how you bounce back the next game and I think we've seen that through the campaign and I'm not talking about bouncing back because there was only one line at which was his fault in the first game but how he's just, he's true to himself back to his process, back to his delivery and also he's grown as a player through this campaign. I think in his actions as well, not just his leadership but not just his set piece but his defensive work. There was a moment. I think he was, you are on the edge and he was a one-on-one with Derry, Derry tackles him, gets back to his feet, gets back on the ball and gets a penalty. Like there's not many hookers in World Rugby would have a one-on-one with a winger in 10 meters of space

21:22let alone the tackle. I've got back to his feet and got back on the ball and created that turn over up to 2nd D. There the moment you look for to get momentum shifts in games and I think he's having more and more of those in games which is what we need as a nation. And on that, I mean, penalty count has been a massive difference. Talked about defends. They started the tournament by concealing 16 against England. It's only two in that first half. But again, I think that comes from confidence. You're not feeling like I have to because they're very comfortable on how in the defensive system they've got this basin. The biggest thing I looked at on the weekend I thought they won the pitcher defensively. They weren't showing Italy any clear and obvious pitches to play into so they were winning the pitcher defensively. Look set, Italy were having to play on that and just make decisions without anything which was given us the ability to react on our terms opposed to probably earlier in the campaign when teams were getting bends on edges with us. It was a clear pitcher because of how narrow you were and it was putting a lot of stress on a young 13 and Eddie.

22:23Later in the campaign, we haven't, teams didn't see that which gives confidence to the defense then. And conversely, when we had the ball because when we had momentum, we kept momentum. We had pitchers because they were either narrow or they was big spacing, which was allowing us to get our ball players like Kare, Derry and Wainwright into big holes where they can be effective. Alex, you know a lot of the players well, you know Steve Tandy. Well, it's been really interesting seeing the journey of Tandy coming in. Such a point of difference between him and Juan Gatlin and an immediate change of environment. I think Farmo connected, Farmo empathetic, a lot to talk about listening to the players giving you the players a voice. But by post-France, there were murmurs coming through that maybe the system wasn't working because the results weren't there. But it's really interesting how he's persevered with this idea and maybe it's quite a modern way of coaching and thinking

23:25compared to the old school, which is basically can be 50 press ups and get on with that type of thing. Yeah, and I think given where Wales are at, like the players did need a little bit of love, didn't they? You know, there's only so many times they can be told, you know, get better or do this, do that or have the hard shoulder. So I think a bit of love and a bit of support was the right thing to do. I was really pleased for Lake who talked about here and the players that they kind of just got the monkey off their back. Obviously first time since 2023 to win a six nations game. So that was really positive. And I think the job that Tandy's done as you alluded to there and the way he's got the best out of the players has to be applauded, given the backdrop of everything that's been going on. It doesn't seem to have had too much of a tangible impact and I think he deserved a lot of credit. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over one billion professionals,

24:27including 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn ads generate the highest B2B return on ad spend of major ad networks. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. That's LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. It's 2009 and we're in the German mountains. A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself. It's time to put my balls on the dashboard. As he starts the engine. In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance unconscious. In 15 years, he's a billionaire. This is Total Wolf, Formula One's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive to Survive. This week on Good Bad Billionaire, how Total Wolf made his billions. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

25:29I'll do it for that. I think you touched upon it. And I keep repeating the fact that whilst rugby is produced, a collective of plays were not used to winning. And you put the inverted commas losers. And it's really difficult to get out of that cycle when it happens, not just at international level, but a domestic level as well. So wins, victories, small wins, even if it's not the doubly at the end, can make a difference. What your coaches publicly, I don't care what anyone says, definitely filters into the environment. And I remember, it won't say which region got to a knockout game a few years ago. And they spoke a lot swinging the bat, going away and swinging the bat. And I was looking at the team, and I was like, that's a team you should be talking about. We're going there to win. And if you listen to all of Steve's press conferences, yes, he hasn't spoken about results, but he's been speaking positively about their performances. But he also was factually and quite hard on him after that England game.

26:30So that's not where we've been. We've probably gone backwards, but since then his message in both publicly and privately has been about building buildings, a group building, not just a 23 than on 23, how the environment is as you spoke about. And then that transition on to the pitch, I really think that is undervalued. And what Steve Dennis Steve's taken a job, which he knows is going to be extremely difficult. But at the end of the campaign now, I'm sure Saturday night, the other beer thinking, we're on the right path now. And we've got the performance. We've got, but more importantly, as important, they've got that result now to always go back. The island game was, as I said, a forward pass away. So it's decisions opposed to, we're reflecting, looking at what we got wrong. We're looking at how much we've got right now. And I remember Steve, when he was coaching at the Ospreys, we'd come in, I think we'd put 40 points on Elster. And you'd left the reveal thinking, did we lose that game?

27:32And there was a massive turning point just before Steve lost his job at the Ospreys around how he flipped it. And everything we were reviewing was, look how good we are when we do this. And I think when you look at the group now, when he's reflecting on the games, he's going to be looking at all, and instilling all the positives in the reveal, as opposed to picking up what we didn't get right. Now we're obviously going to have those conversations around stuff. But the biggest thing for me is picking up positive, positive, positive. And it's not about a false positive. It's the line out the scrim. Exceptional. The starter plays. The red zone efficiency in the last three games. It's been up there. Maybe not getting the scores all the time. But keeping ball, keeping momentum, and knocking the ball on, maybe over the line, for example. You can look at that as a positive or negative, and he's looking at as a positive. And I think that shows his growth as a coach over the last 10 years. I think what's pleased me most about Wales over the last three rounds is the narrative that we were responsible for, and the press hasn't been deemed by small margins.

28:36So whilst the competition of the Six Nations means that no team has been able to put kind of five consistent performances on the park. If you look at some of the other teams, and their Six Nations narrative has been decided by, like, Frances Ramoskeck, that doesn't go over. The French press are writing completely different articles the following day. Scotland, if that try wasn't given when the eight joined them all, then that Scotland's Six Nations arguably looks different. The liner try in the Ireland Italy game. Whereas for Wales, we haven't really been talking about small moments of the last three games. We've just been talking about what an improved Wales, kind of one trajectory, and there was evidence there from the Scotland and Ireland games to make everyone believe they could have beaten Italy. And that's what they did. Best Six Nations ever? Absolutely, yeah, 100%. I did a piece on that last week saying it was the best ever, so I'm feeling a bit smug about that, to be honest.

29:37And this weekend, just kind of... Well, it's rather stunted, didn't it? Oh, what was... Yeah, you could summarize. Why is it the best championship of all time? I think because it's the swings that Lauren just alluded to, either the bounce of the ball, things going different ways, you know, maybe you can make the argument that the quality of rugby in other tournaments would have been better or perhaps that there's been better teams in other tournaments. But how things swung back and forth, you know, how Scotland went from Gregor being on the verge of being sacked to beating England, and then pushing for the title, how Ireland were written off as being over the hill after one game and then bounce back. How Wales went from the England game to show that gradual improvement, and when at the end, how England went from 11 on the spin going into the tournament to what we saw from them, I just think, you know, if you take out national allegiances, the fact that all of these teams had ups and downs was just incredible sporting drama, to be honest. Only three away wins throughout the tournament.

30:38Loads more tries. I've seen some people say that six nations is now turning into super rugby, which is a good and a bad thing. 111 tries, which is a record, 29 on SuperSac. Some of us, purists, always used to say, no, I prefer my rugby to be dour and set peace based. I don't want basketball, I want rugby, but now that you're living in the moment, it's quite enjoyable as well, isn't it? I think it's brilliant. And again, go back to the word mindset. I think there's been a massive mindset, chef from the players. Look at England. It's very similar players that lost the week before, but this week they've gone out and said, we need to score tries. We want to deliver. We want to excite our fans. And they've gone out and produced seven tries against France and the Stad de France. Like Sean Edwards probably pulling that one here, he's gone his head out even more. They can see the 50 points a week before and 40, 40 plus this weekend. But that's the reality of where the game is in this entertainment. And you have to look at that. And we're now looking at the tries

31:39that teams are scoring now. The defenders are forcing them to be world class to score those tries. It's not as if we're being passive and there's lots of soft tries. There's lots of world class moments. You go over the games from the weekend. There's multiple world class moments on top of moments. I've seen a clip of England training in the week and then the transfer at the exact same play on a Saturday. And it's pattern recognition and just getting used to it over and over and over, I think the shapes all look the same. It's the decision making which has gone to another level, in my opinion. Look at the tournament. I also just on that. I think the Six Nations maybe more than any other sporting tournament. When you meet the team, really matters. If Wales had been playing England in round four, low on confidence, pressure building on both wick, don't tell me that wouldn't have been a different game. But they might have lost to Italy in the first game. Yeah. I mean, it's really intriguing. Sorry, I was just going to ask.

32:40Play of the tournament. Is anybody going to go against the favourite? So Louis BLBRA, nine tries, most ever in the Six Nations, eight last year, scoring 10 consecutive matches and he's only 22. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if the official play of the tournament is given to him again. But there are arguments to be made for others for forwards, maybe Scott, who have, I guess, more all-round contributions to a game. I think he's a standout and he'll win it. But I do think that the team of the Six Nations is going to have a widespread. I think I don't think he'd be surprised to see one or two Welsh men in there, specifically for me. If you're looking at Welsh team only, Aaron Wainwright can be an absolute standout for me. And if there's a British Lions tour this year, he's probably on that plane already. Well, I was criticised a few weeks ago for suggesting, I think, in commentary, that Wainwright has suffered from being in poor teams. But being with the Dragons and with Wales,

33:40yes, he's been a standout, but he's not had the opportunity to shine. I can imagine Wainwright just ripping it up in the premiership next season. Oh, I think he's going to, he's going to have a juggernaut of a parkour list and playing with Chesem is going to benefit him as well, I think. He's got the physical, the arm of the footwork, isn't he? Oh, he's got everything. I think he was in Cardiff City. He's football academy, he was 17 or 16. He can't say that he then knew puttin then. Yeah. So, like, he's transitioned late, but he's an X-factor player. The biggest thing we'll know is, like, he's full of confidence and he doesn't let things get to him. And I think if you look at actually his performance is over the last two, three years, there's probably not a massive up or down, but what he's got now is people are getting him on the front for to allow him to have these one-on-ones that he had on the weekend where he was probably running into brick walls for the last two years and still making meters. Because he's always had the physicality as well, yeah? Yeah. Not that I'm saying he's soft, but, you know, we've known about his footwork, but he's got the physicality, he'll hit hard and he can go past me. 100%, and you look at it though, you can be as physical as you want.

34:41If you're one player in the team, I don't give you a hardy surveyor. If you're playing in a team that hasn't got other people to create space for you to get one-on-ones, you're not going to bust through tackles. But I think what this campaign has showed, and I remember speaking at the start of the campaign around it, we were saying we're a small nation, we haven't got powerful athletes. Well, the campaign has showed that we have, but we need them to align to create opportunities for each other opposed to just think we can give the ball to Eddie James and he's going to make a line break. It's got to be Eddie James, James creates momentum. Then Wainwright comes on the second carry, and if Wainwright doesn't get on the second carry, he just keeps them in. And then Zamic gets a potential on the third, and it's about getting those players in positions to allow them to get multiple opportunities of gain line. We've agreed on Pierre-Bierre, we've now moved on to Wales, stand-up play. You go Wainwright or Tom Francis, or Joneses, or Laker, just name one. One, Wainwright. I think that, can I just throw a few more contenders out there for play over the tournament? Because I think there are a fit, like Rammart's top point scorer.

35:44I think Menon Cello, Maclosky for Ireland, have maybe been two of the most consistent. Maclosky for work, and I think what's interesting about Ireland is that the players we're talking about for them aren't the ones we usually have been. So, Otuel, Timony, Balakoon, Crowley back, so having to run a tank, because going into the tournament, we were all talking about their age and profile, but we're not actually talking about the likes of Arki, or well, I guess Bern had a very good game to do against Scotland and the weekend, but I feel like there are, there's a new group of Irish players that deserve a lot of praise. Gibson Park? Yeah, I mean, he's, I guess, just been consistently great for eight years. Greg got Greg on Menon Cello. Oh my gosh, like the size in him. He's just ginormous. Anyway, Alex. I'll have to go with LB. Are we still talking better? Yeah, we going back and forth. Yeah, we're all over the shop. Yeah, I'll go with LBB.

36:46Another one just a bit of an outside. It could be Kyle Stain. I think he had a good tournament for Scotland. But I did do a little bit of research on LBB stats just to kind of try and back this up. So, you want it last year with eight tries. Nine this year, which is a record. Third on most metres made. Four assists. Obviously four tries against England. Fourteen brains. Top of regained kicks. Fourth most points. Which is quite impressive for obviously for a non-kicker. And third on metres per carry. He scored three drives on the weekend, where I'll beat in a defender as well, doesn't he? Just through kick chase. And I believe on the kick chase. To watch it live, as I was in Paris, it's like a cheat code. You know, like in schools, but you have the kid who's faster than everyone else. But you don't expect to see that, obviously, at the highest level. But Ramos and Jelly Bear both identified that if they just kick into space, you can... I don't know, it's just a no-brainer, and it's incredible to see life. Who's your Welsh player?

37:47Wayne Wright. I could have gone Wayne Wright. Given you've gone Wayne Wright, I will go... I'll go dab Jenkins. I think you could make a case for him, actually. It was a lock in play of the tournament, particularly as the French locks rotated. Yeah, I think... His work. Pooley for his work, right? Unsung heroes, Ben Carter and Thomas Francis, for two very different reasons. Thomas Francis, because we realise what we'd lost. They're now important, tight it is. Ben Carter, for that player, who has told me for five years that he is going to be the real deal. Never quite, sort of, stepped up to it, lived up to it. Maybe he'd been asked to do things that he's not necessarily capable of, but as an absolute workhorse in a warrior, he's fit to write then. I think that's probably... He's the player I probably didn't think going in would be a starter. When I look back on the campaign, probably him and Alex Mann, their work really has been exceptional and so undervalued. 32 tackles against Ireland. It's unbelievable statistics.

38:48And Ben Carter would be probably my answer. I think the same as you. I'd always heard things. Yeah, hadn't seen it, but again, maybe he's been... Every coach should be with... He'd be the one, you know, and I mean, Gatlin, Bernard Jackman, Dave Flanagan, spent time in their company and they go, he's the boy. Yeah. He's the boy and I was like, okay. That said, as a Wales fan, there's one clear player I wouldn't want to lose now, above anyone else. Lake O'Carrie. No. And for all the praise we've given the pack, it's not a forward. Thomas, because I think... Did he play well in the first three games? Well, I just don't think we've got the depth at nine that we have in other positions. I find it really strange this, that even on the weekend, I didn't put Kiran on till the late 70 minutes. I don't understand that. Thomas has been subbed for a total of five minutes in this whole six nations. That's not from Ross Patty. He did have a yellow card, but apart from the yellow card, he's Tandy's chosen to take him off for a total of five minutes.

39:51So what happens if Wales lose their nine? I mean, so you've got quite, I guess, Kiran Hardy and Ruben Morgan Williams' older, more experienced. There isn't a clear young night. I mean, Shay Hope may be the one, but he's injured till the end of the season. I was just... Just to be clear by this, much bonus is, are they the same if you come on or don't come on and just worry if you're Kiran Hardy? They'd be the same. Poor thing. I did read some of them. He's gone down though, because they're up at the top 10. Yeah. I haven't asked anyone, because it's all subject, but... Yeah, and that's nothing against Hardy. He just hasn't been given an opportunity. Like a Dan Edwards has been given that opportunity. Yeah, yeah. He hasn't. And that's something Tandy has to, I guess, manage quite carefully. Want to develop combinations and depth. They played together as well, though. That's what Dan and Kiran played together, the other place, was kind of a stranger. And I guess Ruben Morgan Williams played a lot with Dan, but he just, you know, I guess it's...

40:52It's pretty obvious. Maybe why he's keeping Thomas Arnie's British and Irish Lion. And one of Wales's best players. Do you think he had a good championship, Thomas? I thought he was consistent. I thought probably first two games, again, it's hard, which was by 50 points, to have a good game. What I did think is I thought he controlled momentum really well in the last couple of games. Has he been the Thomas Williams we used to see in? Probably not, but I do think he's been the steady part of the ship from, and again, you look at the backline he's got. It's a young backline, so he's had to be that captain almost as a back. I know he's got Josh out there, but Josh is very much on the outskirts of the pitchways. He's in the thick of it. He's got to make the right decisions, whereas he looked previously when Thomas was playing, he would have had Dan bigger outside him, Dan would have took a lot of that type of weight of his shoulders and lamb to his players. Gameways probably having to think a lot more in the game at the moment. Yeah, maybe if Fraser wrongs in the one play you wouldn't want to lose.

41:54I just think it's the one position we don't really have a plan B for. No, interesting. This is the time, they do it on radio sometimes with us, if you don't want any spoilers, or if you've got young kids, please switch off your radio now. This is the final 5-10 minutes. I just want to follow up on Dave Redden's interview on the weekend. We promise you we'll give you loads more politics, on this podcast for months to come, because that's what we specialise in. That's what Weltsrugby specialises in, but we have to touch upon it. Dave Redden, of course, spoke to this grand podcast after the game. I want to clear one thing up, because I think there's been a lot of reporting, especially, but a lot of people on social media, people saying, oh, well, he pops up only when Wales win. In our case, the BBC they'd agreed to the interview pretty much, regardless of what would happen. That's fair, a lot of the day. Wales had lost all one of the weekend, Dave Redden, would have spoken to the ScrumFive podcast. I think that's a point worth making.

42:55Yeah, and he was doing BBC TV as well, regardless, because he's the director of Rugby's, the end of the Six Nations. It's an obvious time to speak to him. Now, some people will say we would have liked to have heard more from him, they're allowed to have that opinion. We'd like to have heard from Dave between November and now. But it wasn't a case of Dave Redden coming on, because Wales have won. 100% not. And I think it's worth mentioning. And I also think the incident with Alan Wind Jones. I don't think he could hear it. No, only I'm still in that position so many times. And if you haven't got talk back, it is so loud that it is completely plausible that he did hear it. I agree with you, yeah. Because everybody else in that conversation would have had a mic. Would have had a little earpiece so they could hear it. And the PA system is very loud. So I don't think there's conspiracy in both of these things. Just what did you make of Dave Redden's interview and what he's come out and said, Alex? It's a difficult one.

43:56This isn't it. My opinion is that whether it was always going to, if it was always going to happen regardless of when or lost, that's fair enough. But I just thought it was a bit of a shame that it almost took the gloss away from the players and Steve Tandy and their achievement. That's just my personal opinion. I think the political stuff has been going on for so long and there have been more important times that I think he should have fronted up. And I think to kind of come on live TV and after the win took something away from the on-field action in my opinion. But yeah, I mean, he is responsible for first and foremost for the on-feet, like his role as director of rugby and elite performance. So whilst he is there to, I guess, address all the questions around the Osprey's future, it is really the chair Richard Collier-Cuewood

44:57and Abitini who I'm involved in those meetings with Wai-11, isn't it? Yeah, yes, yeah. I just want to make one point, I think, and what struck me from the interview, he can listen back to BBC Sounds. He repeated once again, there's no guarantee that the team will be cut will be the Ospreys. The union keeps saying this publicly and I think it sits slightly awkwardly with most people inside whilst rugby understandably the likely outcome. Because if you follow logically the pan that we understand is happening, it's very clearly pointing towards the Ospreys going. And just a bit of a bit of context on into this. So the smoothest route for the WIU to cut to three teams and Dave Redden said it, he wants to go to three teams is for Wai-11 to buy Cardiff. If that happens ownership structure changes overnight. Cardiff, our private backers, Wai-11 would effectively step away from the Ospreys. At that point unless someone incredibly wealthy steps in,

46:00we can't see the Ospreys continue. But the question is why aren't they saying it publicly? Saying this publicly? Well, I think it's because the WIU can't completely guarantee that pathway right now. And I think they're also aware if WILN don't buy Cardiff, the union will have to put it to a tender process. And if they put it a tender process from four to three, you cannot be seen having already decided which team is going. So there's this really awkward position where the union are not saying the Ospreys will be going because they don't want to be seen having pre-judge the position if the tender is reopened again. If WILN's completion doesn't go through. Now I think it's a logical thought process, but it doesn't help the conspirators and those who think that the WIU has been pretty vague and not clear on what the pathway want to follow. Yeah, and the legal question issues around this,

47:00the crucial part is, do WILN want to keep on in the Ospreys and put money in and if they don't, is there somewhere out there that does? Because if there isn't someone out there that can commit to doing that for however many years, there's a huge hole in the solution of this. Yes. The Thospreys fans. I was told though that WILN have been given authority to own two teams in the same league, not sure to him as long as... So do they want to do that? Yeah, that could be because... That's the question. And we have been told time and time is getting off the record that they don't. Oh, okay, there we are. So I think the crux of that's the point here around the messaging that you said there from the union is the legal action that is currently taking place against them from Swansea Council and then also you've got the separate case from Scarlett's against the WIU. The law is other winners and we'll show you right now there's no doubt about that. When you look at how much money's been spent or reportedly spent on the Scarlett's case.

48:03But that's why they can't say publicly that WILN buying Cardiff means that the Ospreys will definitely go. They can't admit to that publicly because that will prejudice the legal case that... Yeah. Swansea Council have against them at the moment and then therefore would leave them open to losing that case. And also, if the WILN deal for Cardiff collapses, the union will still have Cardiff on their books and they will have big issues to solve in terms of if even if they want to go to three, they will need owners for at least two of those, or at least they need public back, at least one of those teams to come from somewhere because as they've explained time and time again they still want private backing for all these teams. I hope that's made it slightly clearer to you at home why people aren't saying things in public. But unfortunately it does look like it's going to be a really challenging road ahead for Ospreys supporters and for WILN as a whole. Apology can't give you more clarity but I'm not sure if anybody has clarity including the World's Drug Union and as to how they solve this particular puzzle

49:04and how do they get to their end game which as repeated by Dave Redden is to go from four to three. Right then, has the politics done? What are six nations, huh? What are six nations? Are you sad? It's over. I am, but I also kind of relieved as well like when you've finished a half marathon. All the training was worth it and also at the same time you're a bit like, I wish I could do it again because in the moment the enjoyment was brilliant but also I just need to sit down and decompress. I think it's good to be finishing on a win isn't it? Absolutely. Everything that was spoken about the start of the six nations to the end it's built, built, built and we've got the result in the performance now to be excited about the summer and the tests which we've got to come. So I think it's sad in terms of Saturdays aren't full now with international rugby but back to domestic competitions now. Do you think that any of the teams would beat South Africa? I was watching that France game on Saturday night

50:05thinking this franchise isn't beaten South Africa and if the World Cup was played this year that winning do you agree or disagree? I think France are the only six nations team that can beat South Africa. I mean obviously they played in the autumn and they did but I didn't see enough in their six nations to make me think they would if they played again. Well having predicted that I mean having predicted like 12 wrong predictions in this six nations I don't think they're good but yeah I sort of agree with you sad but I was just going to pick up on something Scott said there it's his twendon away and I think something that Wales really need to look into now is to make sure they build on that momentum it seems quite clear that they've got better and improved with the more coaching that they've got the more time that they've spent in camps if I was Steve Tundee or I was in the WIU or the the Wales National Squad I'd be looking to see how they can get more time with the players over the next few months they've got obviously you know we've got Cardiff and hopefully the Ospreys will make the playoffs the other two teams won't obviously this complications

51:07with the number of English based players they can't get released and all that sort of stuff but I just wonder is there any way that where they can spend more time in camp because clearly they need it and it's has been really beneficial but Wales are playing catch up on all the other nations they have made strides but the more time they can spend together in my opinion in the next couple of months ahead of the nation's championship games they'll be all the better for it Steve wants to to my understanding get full-time skills coaches who go to the regions for example be a throwing coach who would go to a region a day and work with the senior players we have it in place at the moment for the transition players but there's nowhere in place for the senior international again I think that's only positive in terms of if you can get them and you can get a little bit of touch time and contact time again you build in relationships every week then with these players if you're out for an example and you're throwing coach you work in with Derby Ryan Elias LED these these players you'll then build in a rapport with them which then in the tough times when you're in campaign and this pressure moment you have that empathy and that understanding for each other

52:09of what makes each other tick just finally looking back at the tournament as a whole you can make a case for every team by one to have had a good six nations right so France won the title dominated all attacking stats Ireland finished second had a shot of winning it on the final day Scotland there you know they finished third in five out of 26 tournaments still maybe inconsistent but had two huge results and Italy winning with expectation and delivered England whichever ranking system you use it's a low mark for their six nations Alex I'm just wondering someone who covers them a bit more closely how much of a difference will those 80 minutes those final 80 minutes make to the path there are no other coming months I think it's I think it's shown a bit of a positive of to how good they can be to me that has to be the way

53:09England play moving forward Stuart Barnes in the times where a really good piece I think where he said basically when the pressure comes on with England they revert to type and the kicking game but they've clearly shown against France that if they can play with that pace and power they can be almost any team but there's a lot of pressure on Steve Bortwick now going into the summer worst ever six nations finish most points conceded most tries conceded ever for England you know so can you make sense of it I think the big thing to look at is Steve from my understanding is very stats driven but stats tell you how to win test matches so statistically probably luck and it'd be France and South Africa statistically France won all the stats and six nations but you haven't got France's players and they haven't got South Africa's players so being stats driven doesn't necessarily look at the team England have got me in stats driven and yes all the metrics will tell you kicking the ball

54:10the most and playing territory is going to win you test matches it's not going to with that England squad they've shown it when they play that heads up decision making rugby they are a threat to any team in the world and it's really strange if there is one team or I think could be going back to point earlier Lauren around could beats of Africa it sounds mad but England could be the team there could be South Africa but they have to work with the playing group they've got and the game model has to be built around their squad profile opposed to what stats tell you because you can manipulate stats however you want but it has to be to work for the group of players you've got not what you want to have because you haven't got it reminds me when the Welsh rugby union said that all the data they had supported the decision to keep war and that land three games later he was gone so stats and data only give you so much don't they? sometimes you just need to take a step back from the stats and data and

55:11anyone who has any knowledge of rugby and even the passing fan could watch England against Scotland Island and Italy and go that wasn't very good and then you watch something in France and you go blind me that was very good I only lost the game but the way they played was very very good and to me if they if they go back to the previous kick heavy game plan bought action be the coach if if he can show that he can adapt and play that way as Scott said that that that way of playing is capable of beating the best teams which is what any England side should be doing what's the stats on the data saying about Thursday's warm up? I thought you were going to say yes I'll see you game then are you playing it? we're playing this again to our fund every year a much needed win last week. this week's warm up we've got Aleman Jones joining us so maybe I'll get his take on whether Dave Redden did actually hear him or not there we go or test him by asking him a question really quietly

56:13yeah okay we'll start let's start the pod like that yeah there we go Aleman Jones on the on the warm up we will be back with the falls from pod on next Monday until then thank you for coming throughout the six nations it's been a blast and Wales have got to win as well thank you et cetera it's 2009 and we're in the German mountains Aleman straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack he whispers to himself it's time to put my balls on the dashboard as he starts the engine in 15 minutes he's in an ambulance on conscious in 15 years he's a billionaire this is total wolf formula one's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of drive to survive this week on good bad billionaire how total wolf made his billions listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts