Bonds Are Warning Of A Global Inflation Crisis

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2:05Download today. Welcome to ProfG markets. I'm Ed Elson. It is September 3rd. Let's check in on yesterday's market vitals. The major indices rose, halting a sell-off. Treasurer yields remained at multi-year highs more on that in just a moment. Brent crude's rally slowed, but it did stay above $90 per barrel. And finally, Dell shares saw 16% after posting record revenue due to AI server demand. Okay. What else is happening? Around the world, bond markets are having their worst stretch in years. Japan's 10-year yield hit 3% for the first time in three decades. Germany's is at its highest since 2011. France's is at its highest since 2008. British 30-year

3:09borrowing costs are back at levels last seen in the 1990s. And the US 30-year yield recently hit its highest level since before the financial crisis. This global sell-off reflects the countless worries that investors are now forced to reckon with, including climbing energy prices and hot inflation due to the war in Iran. Unsustainable levels of government debt, hawkish sentiment from the Federal Reserve. And also the enormous amounts of debt that is now being issued to fund the AI build out as we discussed earlier this week. Secretary Scott Bessent tried to bring yields down and failed. And so the big question for investors is the following. What will happen if yields keep rising? It helped answer this question. We are speaking with John Maori Chief Investment Officer at NFJ Investment Group. John, it's great to see you again. I'll just start with kind of a broad question, which is when you look at the bond markets right now, when you look at this sell-off, which continued into the week, what do you think the bond market is really trying to tell us right now?

4:14That's great to see you. So I think there's really, you know, there's two scoreboards. There's the equity market and there's the bond market. And they both have interactions on the bond market side. There's clicking start about deficits and debt. But what I would say is that, you know, the deficits and debt levels were pretty high 15 years ago as well relative to nominal GDP across Switzerland, Japan, the US. I think the real difference today has been a regime shift because for so long, investor thought inflation was dead. And globalization really had kind of quench that. And today, we have a shift that's going on at. And I think we move from the cheapest being the most important to the safest. And that's not that it's a binary situation, but there's a continuum. And I think that as that trickles into supply chains, you know, inflation is part of kind of the new, the new normal a little bit because it's almost like we skipped the insurance premium for getting everything so cheap

5:18in years past. So what extent is the war in Iran have a role to play in this new normal of higher elevated inflation? Is it that or is it multiple things at the same time? Well, I think the war in Iran is one key component of it. I mean, energy prices are definitely affecting so many components of the economy. There's something that touches the consumer very directly. But, you know, the high oil prices is just one part of this. You know, again, I'd kind of go back to the reordering of supply chains. And I mean, if you think about, you know, we used to rely heavily on China for cheap exports, cheap labor, that was basically importing labor deflation to the US. So there's a lot of things that are that are pulling up inflation today. Oil's definitely part of that. I think the challenge for investors and for the Fed is raising rates won't necessarily fix the straight-of-four moves. It doesn't necessarily fix the supply chains in China. So there's no doubt that what's going on in Iran is pushing inflation higher. But I think it's a bigger phenomenon

6:23that's going on when you look at bond yields across the globe. We look at the prediction markets. There's now a 77% chance of a rate hike this year. We're getting increasingly hawker sentiment from Kevin Warschen, the Federal Reserve. Is your expectation that he's going to raise rates and is the plan to essentially try to get to 2% it seems kind of crazy at this point. We've been so far from the target for so long. But are we actually going to continue to try to get to that Federal Reserve target? You know, it's a great question. You know, the bond markets have done a lot tightening for the Fed. I mean, you know, you had negative rates right back in COVID. Now you've got the highest rates going back to in some cases like in Japan since 96 as you cited. So, you know, what I would say about, you know, the Fed's decision coming up with the rates is yes, they are in a tough spot because the 2-year bond yield is roughly 60 basis points ahead of the Fed funds rate. It's not the signal for them. But I think they know the complication. And that is that if they raise rates that is going

7:28to definitely increase the cost of capital. But the cost of capital is already up. I mean, everyone knows what the mortgage rates are. Everyone knows what it's cost of going to buy a new car today. So you already have cost of capital higher. I think the real fascinating dynamic in the market is cost of capital is up. And that's a headwind. But earnings resiliency and earnings growth is a tailwind. And right now the earnings growth is beating the headwind, if you will, from the cost of capital. So, you know, it's plausible for sure that they could raise your rates. But my expectation would be that it's going to be a tough outcome for them because I don't think that's actually going to fix the problem. And maybe if I can share one other observation, you think back to where rates were negative. And I just want to make kind of evaluation comment around this. I don't think people fully appreciated what they were paying. We just went through a bond bubble bursting. Okay. When you have the 10-year bond yield at 50 basis points, that's like paying 200 times cash

8:32for that asset. So people were paying enormous multiples for bonds. And so what we've really done is normalize the bond market. Everyone thought it was going to stay that way forever. But inflation has kind of woken up. And it's really re-rated bond yields back to levels that are really more normal if you look at history. I mean, you say that basically Ken Worsh is trying to fix this, but he might not be able to fix it. There's not much that you can do at the Federal Reserve to fix what's happening in Iran. But Scott Besson has tried to fix it. And he tried to fix it with buybacks. And it didn't really work. Or maybe it did for a couple of days. And then it didn't. What do you make of the buyback strategy as a means to lower borrowing costs in America? Is it the right strategies, the wrong strategy? What do you think of it?

9:32Treasury's job is to finance America. But there's no rulebook on where on the curve the Treasury can issue that debt. They're really fascinating topic. How many 30-year bonds is the right number? How many 10-year? What the Treasury is effectively doing? Is they're saying, okay, we would rather finance more of America's debt at the short end of the curve. So it's basically like taking out an arm on America's debt and adjusting or hitting mortgage. You have to refining it's more versus a 30-year fixed. So it's their prerogative. They can do it. You know, I think that it's a relatively small compared to what was Operation Twist back in 2011 when the Fed stepped in and said, hey, we're going to buy bonds back on the long end and sell short term. So it's a relatively small move from two to four billion when you think about the total size of the balance sheet of the U.S. government. But it's in his prerogative to do so. He's getting criticized for it. But I guess I would just kind of throw out again kind of the thought piece on what's the right number for 30-year

10:36bonds that the U.S. government should hold. And whenever he decides he's going to go on and buy back those bonds, what he's effectively doing is he's buying those back and he is exchanging what was at a lower interest rate for something into the higher interest rate. So that could be good of rates fall, but it looks a little bit like active management to me, which is an interesting role for the treasury to be in. You mentioned earlier that the debt situation in America and kind of across the rest of the advanced world isn't that much different compared to what it was on an nominal basis or compared to GDP at least. I wonder if perhaps part of the concern for investors is that it seems like the longer this drags on, the clearer it becomes that our government just doesn't really care about fiscal responsibility. I give we get to the higher numbers we get to, now we're at $40 trillion in U.S. national debt. The longer this goes on, the more we start to

11:39realize, okay, no one's going to fix this. This is never going to change. And perhaps that might be the concern that is being priced in. Is that a concern to you? Do you see our debt and our rising deficit under this administration? After he said that this was an important thing to balance the budget at least, that was part of his platform, is that a real concern for you? No doubt. I mean, look, I mean, the debt continues to expand. But if you think about how we deal with debt in kind of the modern economy, it's through inflation. I mean, the reality is that we repay our debt with many dollars because the dollar and all currencies continue to appreciate over time. And everyone understands that. Everyone knows that a couple of coffee costs 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. So the way that we deal with this is inflation. It's the most insidious tax on the global population that's ever been invented. And you can see it very slowly. And it's a regressive tax ad. So

12:45it taxes everyone. So are we going to be able to contain it? I mean, if you look at the keger of the national debt, it's about 7.6 percent. And that keger is pretty consistent. So we like to spend money. And unfortunately, when you don't pull enough in taxes and you spend more than you bring in, you've got to issue debt. And the markets tolerate it. And particularly in the U.S., they tolerate it because we're the strongest, most liquid, deepest market in the world. But the way that it's paid for is through inflation. And I think that I think that for years at it was masked by globalization. And now that that's being reordered, I think that it's revealing that, hey, maybe that was temporary. Maybe inflation is permanently in the system. And it's a byproduct of what we've done fiscally and monetarily. But it's also the price that you should pay for convenience. I mean, if you look again, going back to what you said about what's going on in Iran, yeah, the oil markets are probably going to price in a new risk premium because it's like,

13:46hey, if a straight gets shut down, that's a big problem. And when you have a just in time supply chain where everyone was used to getting things just when they needed them for their distributors and for their production, everyone got used to no inflation. I think that's what created kind of a bond bubble. You have no inflation. You can spend more than you need and you can issue debt very cheaply. And now we are having to pay that bill. And what's fascinating though is if you told me that rates on JGBs would go from negative to three over the course of three or four years, I would have thought the market would have had a really tough time. The knee case at all time highs, the S&Ps at all time highs, why is that? It's because earnings are overpowering what's going on with the cost of capital. And so I think the Fed needs to pay close attention to that because at the extent they raise rates and at the extent they slow down growth in the economy, it could be a much more challenging situation because it's ultimately the US companies that employ

14:48all the people. Say yields continue to rise even higher. They've been rising all week, practically a month. Say it continues. What does that mean for investors? And then what does it mean for everyday Americans? Well, I think that if you look at the continual rise in the cost of capital, there's no question that that is again a regressive tax, if you will, because that's affecting everyone up and down the economic scale. In terms of how it affects the market, though, Ed, it's really going to come down to when does the cost of capital start to pull away the earnings resilience. And the reason that the market has tolerated higher rates is because we're probably sitting inside the biggest capex cycle in history. And so that's trickling to so many areas of the economy. And it's absolutely tied to the AI build out. And so that is allowed the economy to tolerate higher rates. So no one knows exactly what that number will be when that starts to kind of

15:50erode the durability of earnings. But as long as we continue in this capex cycle, then that's going to allow earnings to be resilient. And that's going to allow the market to be resilient. And so that's really the tug of war right now between cost of capital and earnings resiliency. And to be honest, you know, the way you deal with it is you invest because you want to be on the side of the company is that can pass through that inflation. That's really the best gift that Americans have. We have a very open and liberalized market. And anybody can do it. Kids can do it. You can open an account. You can stick in $500 when she gets that saved up. You can start it. Not done that with my kids. I've started investment accounts and I've shown them when it's up and down. So I think that that is how Americans should try to tackle again, going back to the most insidious tax I've ever put up on on the global economy, which is inflation. You need to be an investor and get on the right side of the equation. John Murray is Chief Investment Officer at NFJ Investment Group. John's always good to see you. Thank you for your time. Thank you Ed.

16:54Off to the break. An inside look at Open AI. Support for the show comes from Vanta. When you run security for your company that's scaling fast, the stakes just keep climbing. More compliance frameworks, more vendors, more risks, and a board that wants to see it all in one place. But your compliance data can be all low for the place. Controls in one tool, vendor risk in another, customer commitments, parroting contracts. Your team has to spend more time stitching it all together and less time running the program. And every quarter, you're basing decisions on last quarter's data. Vanta connects it all. It's market leading agentic trust platforms built for enterprise scale with 400 plus integrations and continuous monitoring. Vanta automates evidence collection services the risk and matter and organizes your audit around your auditor's requirements. And that Vanta agent works around the clock from full program context. So nothing slips through the cracks. The numbers back this up. Vanta delivers a 526% return on investment over three years and

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19:59telling a federal judge that open AI is actively destroying evidence. Meanwhile, 30 new lawsuits were filed this week over a school shooting in British Columbia, which killed eight people. The suits alleged that open AI could have helped to prevent this as this suspected shooter had heavily interacted with chat GBT. This all comes amid the anticipated release of open AI's newest model, Astra, which is reportedly the first to have critical cyber abilities. So to get into all of this, open AI news, we are speaking with Alex Heath, who just sat down for multiple one-on-one interviews with the CEO of open AI Sam Altman. He also spoke to more than 20 people at the company for a cover story. He just wrote for Time Magazine. Few people know more about what's going on at open AI than Alex. Alex is the author of the sources newsletter and he just launched the new sources podcast. Alex, thank you for joining us. Good to see you. Let's just start with your interview with Sam, which was just released this week. I watched the interview

21:03fascinating on many levels. We'll get into it. But what were your top takeaways? Oh, man. Thank you, Ed. I appreciate that. Yeah, I've been spending a lot of time at open AI and with Sam. And we covered a lot of ground in the conversation. A couple of things stood out. They are really slowing down front to your research in a way that is unprecedented in the industry, speaks to the capabilities they're seeing that have not yet been released. They have Astra, their next family of models coming, which I've gotten to see as part of my reporting process for the time cover story you were talking about. But no one externally has used yet. What they saw, and I was actually in the office as this was happening, was even further frontier training runs that they have after Astra were showing, as Sam put it to me, various degrees of misalignment, which is AI speak for the AI is not doing what it's supposed to. And you see that with hugging face, the hack on hugging face that everyone knows about.

22:05But I think it speaks to as these models become more agentic, doing things in browsers, taking over computers, the security risks go way up. And open AI's research team decided, which that company is still very much a research culture led company, even with all the commercial stuff that we'll get into. That team has pushed them to slow down and they are that said, they're also in this fierce model race. They want to get Astra out the door as soon as possible. I think it's going to be any day now. It's going to be a very powerful, capable model. And then we touched on a bunch of stuff. We touched on recent leadership departures. We touched on the IPO and through our competition, the device work with Johnny Ive. He told me they're going to make a humanoid robot. There's a lot to go over. You all stem about the hugging face incident and the extent to which it was a security breach and accident. He is what he had to say in response.

23:06It's a safety failure for sure. There's a question of how much you're supposed to understand that as a security issue or a line of an issue. I think it's mostly been reported on as a security issue. I think I understand it personally more as an alignment issue. But in any case, yes, that was a bad thing. I don't want us to make excuses for that because I don't believe that's how we fix it. The more we're like, oh, our nice little model. He would never do anything bad. It was just a little e-vails, harness, misconfiguration, no problem, nice little model. That would be a very, if I said something like that, then I think you should be like, oh, this is really bad. It seemed as though his view is we're recognizing the problem. We've admitted the problem. So it's not that much of a problem. What did you make of his comments? I can see that take. I think he was throwing a little shade at other labs who hype up the capabilities of the models and then when stuff happens, don't really talk about it or kind of throw it under the rug. I think that was more of the meaning behind that statement when he was explaining that.

24:09There's another part of the interview. He's like, people call me the yellow CEO. He was referring to something that Dario Amade said at a conference last year. Which you acknowledged and then he sort of refused to admit that that's what he was saying, which I also thought was interesting. I won't acknowledge or deny or not deny who I'm talking about. You're talking about him. Well, Sam and Dario, I think, live rent-free in each other's heads. Always. It's very apparent. But I think, I'm not saying this for a fact, but I think if you were Sam and Thropics about to have maybe the biggest IPO of all time in the coming weeks, if I'm Sam and you're slowing down front to research for a good reason because you have concerns about the alignment risks, it's probably like a good PR move to go out there and be the safety company. That's what anthropics whole claim to fame is. That's how the company began.

25:10It was a bunch of safety people left open AI. I think there's a genuineness in that open AI really does see capabilities internally that frighten them in terms of their ability to align them. I also think, look, it's convenient timing. I think both can be true. Something I've been wondering about this hug and face incident, which I feel like is people weren't talking about and suddenly everyone's talking about it. To me, I can't tell whether maybe they're proud of it because it's this example of their agents being very capable and going out there and doing something that is very sci-fi-e. Then also, they get to say, oh, we're addressing the problem. Part of me wonders, on the one hand, I feel like maybe they want us to see it as evidence of how capable the agents are. Then part of me thinks, the cynical part of me thinks, well, maybe you guys just aren't really doing a good job with your own security. It doesn't say that much about the advanced capabilities of the models as much as it says about that you're

26:12a scrappy start-up and you're not doing your job when it comes to cyber security. How did you see that incident? Do you see it as a serious statement? Does it say something big about where AI is headed right now? I think it does. I would encourage everyone listening or watching this to go watch open AI's black hat presentation where their researchers, I cite it in the interview with Sam, where their researchers walk through how the model actually escaped and hacked hugging face. It's remarkable. It's the first incident of this happening. At the same time, I think you're right to point out, opening AI didn't have the safeguards in place. If this is a company, one of the two main companies were trusting with the future of AI, upending everything. How should we feel about the fact they didn't have the safeguards in place to keep this from happening? They didn't foresee what would happen. I talked to the chief scientist and head of research and a bunch of people, ahead of alignment about this. They had safeguards that they had developed that would have stopped this.

27:18They didn't implement them for the training run that led to the hugging face breach because they didn't think the model was going to be that capable. There is a sense of what's happening inside these labs at the frontier is the model capability is getting ahead of the human researcher's ability to foresee what's happening, which is you get into this concept of an AI recursive self-improvement RSI, which Sam and I also talk about in the interview, particularly around the IPO, which is, I thought interesting the way he framed it around the IPO. People in the frontier labs really feel like they're on the edge of like a precipice that's like potentially amazing and also cataclysmic in the sense of AI that can build itself recursively self-improve, not need a human in the loop even the chief scientist of open AI. That's already starting to happen. People talk about RSI as a thing that hasn't happened yet. It's definitely starting to happen. Then you get into this AI people talk about this concept of takeoff and there's no going back. It can get very spooky, very

28:20sci-fi. Sam said that in the interview too. It feels like sci-fi. It is when you see what happened with hugging face. At the same time, to your point, yes, opening AI should have had safeguards in place. One of the big themes we talk about on this show is the profitability of AI or the lack thereof among the AI labs open AI included. You guys talked a little bit about the AI build out and the extent to which it is or isn't profitable. I thought it was coming through really interesting. Here's what he said. No. I'm worried about our compute build out plans. I am worried about the world's compute build out plans. I think we are going to be able to use all of the compute very profitably that we are planning to build. I am seeing the first signs of what feels to me like unsustainable silliness of random new NeoCloud, probably not people claiming that they're going to build gigantic massive compute next year that I think they don't have the revenue to support or a buyer. I definitely feel like some fear about what the world is doing as a whole.

29:24Although I think we feel very good about what we've committed to. What were your reactions to those comments? It's interesting. There are a bunch of Neo Clouds that are making gigantic contractual commitments. That was the position of OpenAI I was in last year with Stargate and Sam with Larry Ellsson in the White House. These trillion-dollar headlines that were flying around. You could look at a lot of companies making huge commitments and just do basic math and math of what revenue do they have to support those commitments. OpenAI obviously is not public yet. We don't have an S1. I, Ed, I got to be honest. I know you've had people on the show that are very critical of the finances and you have been to and I get that. Until we see it, you kind of have to be into job. I've walked away from the reporting process and I talked to Sarah Fryer. I talked to all the computers. I talked to everyone. Feeling a lot more confident that this isn't as fragile as maybe people think it is. At least with OpenAI and Anthropic. I mean, OpenAI is at about a 40-billion in-run rate. Enterprise has passed consumer in terms of the revenue mix. The most interesting part

30:28about OpenAI's business from the interview that I actually wanted to talk about with you was was A. That is comment about the NeoClouds. But B, there was a moment where I was asking you about Chatty PT growth because they hit a billion users recently. But it took a long time. There was an incredible ramp up to hundreds of millions of users and then a day they teetered on a billion for months and months and months and I thought that was unusual and suggested maybe more competition in the market is chat losing its luster. He very matter of factly was like, well, we decided to put our compute into codex, into coding to compete with Anthropic. And I was like, wait, so your revenue is a direct function of where you can put the compute? And he's like, yeah, completely. So they're kind of like these labs are like alchemists in a sense of how they control their business because they are so compute constrained that it's not like a normal business where there's demand that you can forecast and control. They're just they don't have enough. They don't have enough compute to serve the demand at any given point. And so open I made a decision to shift compute

31:34that then slowed its consumer growth to grow its enterprise growth. So yeah, these labs are a little bit like alchemists right now and I don't think that's I don't know if there's precedent in the history of modern capitalism, especially for two companies that are about to have trillion plus IPOs. Like I don't think there's precedent for that. And I found that very interesting. What parts of your interactions with particularly Sarah Frey are made you feel more confident in the financial sustainability and the financial health of this company? Well, look, they're not profitable. I think if they stopped training today, they could be. I think that's been the case, by the way, for a while. What happens to the multiple on the company on the valuation if they stop training, if there's no more frontier to chase, that's a bigger question, obviously. The economics of just like inference are actually really good. The frontier labs operate at incredible margins on inference. Inference meaning running the models themselves that people are using versus trying to build these incredible frontier models for the future. Correct. And if you look at what open eyes done with token efficiency driving the cost down of tokens

32:38even for the sole family, it's most recent one with Luna and the smaller ones. This is not the behavior of a company that is tearing. And they're building a real machine and house that is, you know, they're still growing up. They're still startup even though they're huge. Like the culture is a startup, right? Like that company operates on like a 12 hour horizon. I didn't even give them point. I can just tell you from being on there for a couple of weeks. At the same time, like, they're starting to become more regimented about spending and the inference business is going to be very good. I think I've no doubt about it. Now look, like if training continues to balloon, maybe that's an issue. I think a lot of people and I think RSI will lead to training costs declining. Also like the chip gains that they're making with their custom chip, jalapeno, like lowering the cost of compute is a big focus for them. And I think they see a line of side to it. So look, it's unprofitable. I think that's a choice.

33:39I don't think that's like a, that's because they have no choice. But, you know, we'll see. We don't have an S1 yet. Just to wrap up here, you asked him about the growing anti-AI sentiment and the data-centered backlash. I'm not sure he gave you much on how he actually felt about that. What do you think he thinks about the fact that so many people hate AI and not just AI, but open AI? I was really curious to hear how you thought about this, especially with the recent attacks on his home personally, right? And the data-centered backlash is stronger than ever. I thought his response to me was, you know, it was interesting. It was basically like if we make a better product, they'll like it. And, you know, I kind of respected the sense that it puts the pressure on them to deliver. You know, I've had some pretty magical moments. I'm not going to lie with AI in the last few weeks, HTTP work, Cloud Co-Work,

34:43doing basic stuff. I mentioned in the interview, but like filling out a post office web form, so a package gets picked up. It would have taken me 20 minutes. I just did a prompt, did it, and I put the package out and it was gone the next day. Little stuff. But it starts to add up and you're like, wow, this is like, this is a nice value. Like I'll pay $100 a month for this. Most people do not use chat that way. They use the basic free model. It's better Google search. You can do some other things, but it's like people look at it as like insanely expensive Google search. That's like detrimental to the environment. That's how most people think about AI. And I think what he was trying to say there is like as we move into this agent world, which like Astra, the next model, it's trying to use enterprise software faster than humans. So like as we move into this world, we're like, you hate using your expense software and you just tell chat to go do it for you. Like maybe you start to feel differently about AI. If it's like actually making a meaningful positive change in your life. And I think that's what he's banking will happen. That's a prediction by him. I'm not saying that's going to happen. But that was his answer. And yeah, I don't know. I

35:48don't know if people will find that answer fulfilling or not. I think people are going to keep hating AI. Alex Heath is the author of the sources newsletter and a host of the sources podcast. Alex, appreciate your time. Thank you. Always thanks. Circling back to our discussion with John, it appears that the bond markets have finally reached the end of their line with the administration. Turns out that if you drive up inflation with tariffs ended up just being returned to corporations. And if you double that inflation with another forever war that just so happened to choke off a fifth of global oil supplies. And if you rack up $2 trillion in annual deficits and if you explode our total debt to $40 trillion. And if you show the world that you don't really care about any of this, nor do you think that any of it even matters, then eventually yeah, investors will price that in. The yields on the 10 year has risen to

36:53more than 4.8%. It's highest level since 2023. The yield on the 30 year recently hit 5.3%. It's highest level since the financial crisis and the yields on foreign bonds from Japan to the UK to Germany and France have all hit multi decade highs borrowing costs around the world are soaring. As the bond market speaks out about an impending inflation crisis. Now keep in mind this is all in spite of the fact that Scott Bessent used the Treasury Department to try to muzzle the bond market. He issued billions of dollars in long dated bond buybacks. That was his attempt to fix the price of US bonds to bring yields down and as his former colleagues, Stanley Druckermiller put it to prevent the bond market from speaking. But you can only shut investors up for so long. And in his case, it was a couple of days. Eventually reality has to catch up. Now has the full force of our fiscal

37:56reality and our inflationary reality fully set into the markets yet, I think probably not. But it appears that it is beginning to. Whatever appetite investors used to have for this administration's BS is clearly beginning to weigh. They are fed up with it. And if you can't tell from the sound of my voice, I am fed up with it too. Okay, that's it for today. This episode was produced by Claire Miller, analysis and vice and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our video editor is Brad Williams. Our research team is Dan Shalon, Cristino Donahue and Mia Silverio and our social producer is Jake McPherson. Thank you for listening to Property Markets from Property Media. If you liked what you heard, give us a follow. I'm Ed Elson, tune in tomorrow for our conversation with Tyler Cowan. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project, one after accounting another for inventory another for sales and somehow none of them talk to each other.

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