BREAKING: Lindsay Clancy Mistrial

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1:00Welcome to LemonLive at 5. We're glad that you're here and we have a very big show for you. So I'm not going to talk to you that much because I want to get to what's happening. So thank you for joining us. Hit the like and the thumbs up. It is our first order of business here. And let me know where you're streaming from. So let's get to it. So I don't know if you guys have been following this Lindsey Clancy story out of Massachusetts. We talked about it a little bit on the program. We covered it yesterday because it looks like the jury was going to be deadlocked in a hung jury. And it was all the things that we accept. There was a twist in it. The judge had declared a mistrial. Then the defense attorney asked for a special, made a special appeal to take it to a higher court to try to get them to go back in and deliberate or do whatever it is.

2:06We'll get our legal experts are going to explain to us what, what all of that meant and what was happening. But then they came back after all of that and this is what happened. I have members of the jury. At this point, I'm going to declare that the jury is deadlocked and I'm going to declare a mistrial. All right. I just wanted to make a comment. So his comment was about Churchill and some other things that I don't know. It was just it was a bit odd after that. But anyway, he said mistrial, the special dispensation for like an hour to go and a higher court. I believe it was appeals court. I'm not an attorney. I'll talk to the attorneys. We're actually going to have a judge in. So again, like it thumbs up, it is very important. Someone says this is wrong in the comments. Let me know. Millie Walker says that. Let me know what you think in the comments. LA is here and others. Okay. So here we go. Look, everybody has an opinion about this. You know what really bothers me about this Lindsey Clancy case.

3:12One is that there have been women who are, you know, what not white women who have been in this position and they have gotten harsher treatment. And I'm sure there have been other white women who have probably gotten harsher treatment than her. But there seems to be an army of supporters for this woman and many say for good reason because of this postpartum psychosis. But somewhere along the way for me. Three dead children almost became secondary to this story. And the story became about their mother instead of them. Everybody has an opinion about Lindsey Clancy. Everybody, right? If you have been following the story, everybody, including it has become part in the political realm. You've got prominent conservatives talking about this Fox News is is talking about this. I am told that Sean Hannity is obsessed. I don't know that second hand. Was she sick? Was she evil? Did she know what what she was doing? Was it postpartum psychosis? Which most people had never heard of especially men women know about it.

4:12Especially if you are had to bear children, you know about it. Should she be in prison? Should she be in a hospital? Okay. But Danette for me, what about the kids? It's like in the Nolan Well story like we keep forgetting, you know, like the friends are like, oh my god, my reputation, all those things. And I say, what about the family? So in this, I'm saying, what about the real victims in all of this? That's the kids. Look at their faces. Just so you know, those are the kids. Kora was five years old. God, God. Dawson was three. Cowan was eight months old. Eight months old. A baby. Really all of them to me were babies. I mean, it breaks your heart. It breaks my heart. Look at that. I have a bigger monitor over here.

5:26You guys wonder what I'm looking at when I look over here. I have a larger monitor over here. I should probably move it closer. But look at those beautiful faces. All three of them now are dead. Now, I understand. Don't get me wrong. Why the case itself is complicated. I do her lawyer say that she was suffering from severe postpartum mental illness and wasn't criminally responsible for what she did. Prosecutors, well, they say that she knew exactly basically she knew what she was doing according to them. Those are huge questions that I mentioned and they matter mental illness matters. You guys know how I wanted to distinguish off of mental illness. So I certainly understand that this is a complicated case. Postpartum psychosis is real. It is terrifying. And yes, we absolutely should be talking about whether women are getting the help that they need when they are in that kind of psych psychiatric crisis. I'm not brushing any of that aside. What bothers me though is what we have done with all of this. This thing is turned into a damp sporting event. Team Lindsay, team prosecution.

6:37People online diagnosing a woman that they have never met arguing over whether she is a monster or a victim picking apart every piece of testimony, every horrible detail like we're all waiting around for the finale of some Netflix limited series Netflix doc. Three children died here. Can we just can we just remember them for at least five minutes? Can we do that? Because Korra and Dawson and Callan didn't know what postpartum psychosis was. They just, oh my gosh. They just knew mommy and daddy and wanted to be kids. They didn't know what criminal responsibility meant. They didn't know there would be some day psychiatrist and lawyers and commentators arguing over what was happening inside their mother's mind when they died. They knew their mother.

7:38They knew the person who was supposed to keep them safe. And I mean, sorry, but not sorry. That's part of this. That's the part of this. It is just so damn dark to me. And now we have a mistrial. We may do all of this again. Another trial, more testimony, more experts, more arguments, more people picking sides and Korra and Dawson and Callan. Those babies risk becoming those three pictures that somebody puts up on the screen for a few seconds before everybody goes right back to talking about Lindsay. And oh my gosh, it's crazy what happened with legally. And that's important too. And I want to talk about that. But I just want to, I said at the beginning of the show, can we just take five minutes to remember the kids here? Because I think they're being forgotten.

8:40And so I don't want to forget them. I don't want to do that today. I want to save their names. Korra Dawson, Callan. Because everybody else in this case still gets something. The lawyers get another argument to make. The experts get another chance to explain what they believe happened. And you have the commentators are going to get another segment. Lindsay Clancy may get another trial, another defense, another jury trying to figure out what was happening inside her head. And she will get something. I mean, she will either get prison or she'll get acquitted. She'll be found not guilty. And she's still alive. But those kids get nothing. Nothing. Korra never gets to grow up. Dawson never gets a first day of middle school.

9:40And the littlest one, Callan never even gets to become a little boy. Just a little baby. No birthdays, no drivers licenses, no stupid teenage mistakes, acne, oh my gosh, crushes on girls and boys and falling in love. None of that. And I do think that gets lost from the case like this becomes a spectacle, which it has become. And yes, talk about post-aparocycosis. We should we should do that. Talk about that. Again, I'm a big proponent of getting mental health, taking care of, taking the stigma off and ask whether the mental health system failed Lindsay Clancy. That is legitimate. Let a court figure out what criminal responsibility looks like when severe mental illness is involved. But please spare me pardon my language. I spare me that I'm not, I'm just say the epic circus and all of this. Spare me the succession with deciding whether Lindsay Clancy is a monster or a martyr while three children that she killed and admitted.

10:44Right? Slowly become supporting characters in this story. They were not supporting characters. Korra, Dawson and Callan, with a reason there was a courtroom in the first place. I just wished that we would act like we know what's going on. So I want to bring someone in who can talk about this at the highest level and that is Diane Kessel. She's retired after 25 years as a judge on the New York Supreme Court. Judge, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Thank you. And look, I'm sure you'll understand that I think the children should be remembered in there and we should say their names, but there is a legal battle at the heart of this. And so judge, after everything that has happened with this case, all the coverage, all the commentary, how confident are you that they're actually going to find 12 people who are truly impartial for a second trial after this trial has gotten so much attention?

11:52I'm not sure the question is whether they will find people who are truly impartial. I think this case really signifies the limits of the justice system, if you will. Your commentary about remembering these children is absolutely correct and valid and our concerns about mental health, correct and valid everything you said. But you know, we look to the justice system appropriately so to write all wrongs and you know, it's imperfect. And I frankly don't think there's going to be another trial. I would be very surprised and the reason being both sides are probably going to talk to those jurors who are willing to talk at this point. Right. They're all the lid is off. They can speak to anyone they want. And they're going to find out the dynamic of what happened in that jury room. And I seriously doubt if it's the way it's been presented now, which is you've got 11 people saying she's not criminally responsible and you've got one person holding out saying she is.

13:00Is the prosecution really going to devote the kind of time and energy to what feels like such an uphill battle? I suspect that both sides will get together and reach some kind of compromise that will result in a plea in which there will be some accountability. I don't know what kind I don't know, but I would be very surprised. This isn't a, this isn't a, you know, a seven five decision or, you know, it's 11 to one. Yeah. It's hard to fathom that the, that the G A would, he isn't going to say that now and he didn't say that outside the courthouse early the day, but I don't know, I'd be surprised. I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. You know what I should put my glasses on because now I recognize you because I before I didn't and it's Kizel. I don't know if I called you Kessel, but it's Kizel.

14:00It is. And he spent a lot of time together. I know when I saw you, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is just Kizel. It's good to see you. I don't have the monitor up here in my camera. It's down below, which is why I'm always looking down and people are like, what are you looking at? I'm like, I'm looking at my monitor. It's below the screen. So we'll fix that. So you kind of answer my next question because I'm wondering is there, there's my question that I had that I, in my head was, is there going to get a point where this case just becomes too famous where too many people have already formed an opinion and jury selection can't really fix it, but you're saying it's not really even about the jury selection. It's about what the legal system will decide without before they even get to a jury and they may say this is not worth it. Right. You should also know that most judges in the courses of their career have had press trials are very well known trials. And there, you can still select a jury, even if everybody's ever heard the case.

15:00I tried the case of Anna Delvie, the woman who was charged with fraud a number of years ago, she was a Netflix series about her, everybody who walked into that courtroom had heard about the Anna Delvie case. Now obviously that's not on the level of this terrible, terrible tragedy. And, nonetheless, you can go through each and every person on the panel and ask specific enough and pointed enough questions that you can get to the heart of whether they can be fair, just because you know something about a case doesn't mean you can't fundamentally be fair. So let me ask you this and let's because you said you don't think it's going to, there's going to be a retrial. Let's just say there is, okay? Okay, okay, you said they're might you could be wrong. If you were the judge handling a retrial, what would you be worried about most people coming in with their minds already made up, people who think that they're, you know, that they can be fair when they really can't or just the sheer amount of information that's already out there and all of the press and.

16:07Everything that you're going to have to deal with because it is a circus, whether we want to admit it or not. Well, there's a couple things you worry about. First of all, people. One accepts as one must, jurors under oaths, weren't to tell the truth says they can be fair, they can be fair. There's outside influences these days on trials that I find terribly problematic. Social media, people having agendas, if you will. I'm sure you saw that news conference today when the prosecutor came out and right behind him, someone was criticizing him for not having, not caring about the woman and her mental state. And everybody's taking pictures with their cell phones. Well, let's play there. There was he spoke out. Let's play a little bit of that and then I want you to talk about it here. Okay. Okay. This is the defensive. Oh, sorry. No, this was with the prosecutor came out. Oh, no, okay. I don't think we have the prosecutor.

17:12Okay, the defense attorney was out there. So go ahead. But my point being there's a lot of outside noise that surrounds the trial like this. And as a judge, you can instruct the jury all you want. Look, you know, don't listen to anything. Don't post anything on social media. Don't read anything. But how do we put ourself in a bubble once we're on the jury? And I find that a very disturbing, you know, 21st century trend, you know. So insulating the jury from the outside noise, I almost find more problematic than trying to get 12 fair and impartial people. It's what happens after you get them, you know, and people want to get their input. So judge, I know this is probably not the part that you like, but I'm going to bring in some lawyers for you. Oh, I love lawyers. They get to argue with me. Dean of dollars here. She's legal analyst, Midas Touch host, as well as Monique Pressy, friend of the show, an attorney and also joining us on our journey into network.

18:20We'll have her own show on our fast channel. So congratulations to that Monique. We'll talk about that later. But thank you for joining us. We have Judge Diane Kiesel with us. And she's saying, I don't know if you guys will agree. She's saying, and I'm going to ask Monique because Monique is always very opinionated. She doubts that there will be a retrial, but she says she could be wrong. Now I have to agree with that. I hope everybody can hear me. I'm on the road, but didn't want to miss this important conversation. I think that that would be the right decision for the prosecution, especially given the information we learned toward the end of the trial about what was going on with the jury and what happened with this one juror and the expensive trial. And I talk about that all the time, gone, the millions of dollars just in time and man hours and commitment from government and taxpayer dollars in order to do these things.

19:20And it does not seem to me, based on what happened in this trial, that there would be a better outcome for the prosecution. So I just don't see a reason for them to go through that and put everyone else family friends through that again. So Dana doll opinionated as well. I mean, what attorney is not. What do you think? Do you agree with Monique and Judge Kiesel? I think that the political ramifications of this case have gotten huge and almost become not just a true crime trial. And I don't think you can discount that usually a retrial benefits prosecutors because they have seen what works and doesn't work and time again when you have a retrial it often does get a conviction. That's a considerate. You also have the DA here in this case, Timothy Cruz, who already probably you could say overcharged this case. He could have not gone with a premeditation to begin with.

20:24He was trying to signal that they were going to get justice for the children and did and probably put his prosecutors into the box that ended up with this result. So we have somebody like that who is already feeling as if he was going to maybe make a point. And then now you have these Republican conservative talking points talking about, you know, making it even more political. I think that he is the type of a person who probably based on also his rhetoric. What he has been saying lately about this about how we aren't focused enough on the children. I don't see him backing down. I think that this is going to get retried. Okay, so having said that, I'm glad you brought that up because you talked about the political part of this, which is, should we be shocked? Everything is political, but I mean real quickly, judge, does it matter if the news is talking about the politicians are talking about it, if it's become political conservative or liberal? Does that play into any of this as far as you being the judge, are you aware of that?

21:31Well, you know, judges don't live under a rock, but it's not the judges politics that matter here. It's the politics of the elected district attorney of the county in which you're being charged. And it's my understanding this is the only Republican district attorney in any county in Massachusetts. Am I correct about that? I heard that somewhere today, but gee, that is it may. He's got political considerations that he's got to take into consideration. I have to assume just like we're reading about this everywhere and everybody on social media is talking about it. His office is probably not parted with phone calls and emails from people who think you're insensitive to women who have mental health issues. And I'm not sure you're not being tough enough and fighting for these deceased children. And he's got a way that I don't know what is anybody challenging him in the next election who knows, but certainly politics for the DA, I think is a big factor.

22:34I don't know. I don't know, but I know he is a Republican who serves in that district. I'm not sure if he's the only one. I have not followed this one as close as I follow and following the Nolan Wells case. I am aware of it. But look, Monique, excuse me. I'm just wondering, you know, Dina talked about this becoming political. I'm told that it is a major story on that's out there, especially in conservative media like Fox News. I think Sean Hannity is, it's become a bit obsessed with it. I don't know that for sure because I don't really partake in Fox News. And high profile Republicans are commenting on it like Megan McCain and others. Right. But you know what, when you think about retrial and you think about politics and you think about the way something is going to look, I agree with everything that's been said so far. Especially the part about overcharging in the first place.

23:38And more so when you think about the fancy family, you know, the father and family did not want this prosecution and they did it anyway. And so when you look toward victim impact and you look toward what you have to put victims through in order to try it again, I think that's what should be top of mind with the prosecutors. And frankly, if they hadn't overcharged, if they hadn't, you know, to me oversold their hand, then perhaps there would have been a different outcome at least. But offended is Clancy would be perhaps getting the mental help that she obviously needs based on all the testimony that came in at trial. And that's not what's happening now and it may not be what happens in the future. You're muted done.

24:39I was muted because there's an ambulance going by. I'm sure you guys heard that for a little bit. So pardon me. I wanted to get this in to take you outside of what it's like outside of the courtroom. And I guess sometimes inside of the courtroom, except there are no antics there. But there are the supporters of this woman of Lindsey Clancy outside of the courtroom. Let's look at it. It's like, hold you the ambulance and I'll show you guys. Show me how I'm flinty with the mental health. I know if you'll ever have this many women in one place at one time, you may have scanned all of us on a level that others don't. And look, postpartum psychosis is a tough thing. I can't speak to if you engage in case you guys have not noticed, they're all women on this program today for a reason because I'm not going to pretend to know about a woman's physiology because I just don't.

25:40And that's why I have you there. This is very personal, whether you agree with them or not, how they feel about the mother, but this is very personal for women and women do deal with postpartum psychosis, right, judge? Sure. Absolutely. I mean, I don't think there's any question that this woman was suffering from some type of mental health crisis. Certainly the evidence that we've heard. I'm basing what I have to say, obviously on what I've read and watched in the court. And that's real. The issue becomes, is it so real that she was incapable of premeditation, planning, and knew what she was doing when she sent her husband out for dinner or something. She sent him on an errand as I understand it sent them to the CVS to pick up some items to give herself allegedly according to the prosecution sufficient time to kill her children.

26:48So the fact, what, how do you say you can have two different things and they don't, two things can be true at the same time. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. She can be suffering and really suffering yet at the same time still form the legal intent to kill her children. That's the big hurdle that the DA has to jump over. So we are going to speak to doctors who can speak more specifically about this. But, you know, this is, this comment, Dina, where was all the support for those innocent children, which was my monologue. I'm not saying that those women shouldn't be out there, but we forget that the children are dead in this because we keep talking about what, you know, the mother and was she ill and, you know, her legal strategy and a mistrial and all of that. I don't think that the female support she's getting online is discounting the tragic death and killing of the children because she herself is not claiming she didn't do it.

27:48So in a way, that's why the focuses on her mental health, not because the killings are not tragic, but it became about her and the prosecutors made it about her. You know, I have followed true crime cases and the idea that even a woman on trial to kill her children has even a shred of support around females is unprecedented. I mean, and her eights is the recent high profile case. I mean, usually they have no shot. But because she tried to get help multiple times and was failed by the doctor she was seeking help for. Because she told the family and people around her, she felt like she was going to harm the children and perhaps wasn't taken seriously enough. This is why there's a shred of compassion for her. And I think there's a difference between compassion for her and discounting the really tragic and awful death of her children. And I think that's why that she even has any support among women. That in itself is shocking. Most females, females would usually be the worst juror in this kind of case because they would put themselves in the shoes and say, I as a mother wouldn't kill my children.

28:58And the fact that you even have some women saying, gosh, I think perhaps she was clinical definition of insanity. I think this goes to show that how badly the mental health system and frankly medical care has failed women in general. And you could pull a statistic out of statistic as a statistic and talk about the fact that female medical care is just vastly inferior to male medical care. There was not the same kind of funding and research. And I think that's kind of really the underpinning of this is that so many women, perhaps that's not even postpartum. But so many women have said, yeah, me too, my depression maybe looks different than a male depression. And I wasn't taken seriously. And this is why it shocks me that Republicans are turning this into a culture war because I think females feel as if the medical system gaslit Lindsey Clancy they didn't take her seriously enough and then Republicans are really doubling down on that and acting as if women do not have a genuine issue with the fact that the mental health system does not properly care for women.

30:01And to me, that's a losing argument and the culture war and really disgusting to turn this into politics. I think that's a disgusting thing, not that maybe some females understand and can sympathize with her. Yeah, I don't think that women out there are discounting that. I think people just want to know where it's not equal the discussion of that. And I get your point. Also, you know, you and I talked about this. It was one of our topics, one of our main topics yesterday. And that's about the disparaging it in treatment for healthcare and mental health care and all of it between with white women and women of color. There was a Lindsey Clancy that who was very a very similar case as Lindsey Clancy, and her name is Natasha, Natasha Sanders and others. Natasha Sanders in 2022, she had a murder conviction that she killed two of her children. Her medical records were not allowed in evidence. They were excluded from evidence. The same judge is handling this case.

31:02And now the highest court in Massachusetts have overturned her case and she's going to get a new trial. What does that say to you? Do you think that this case is helping her to get a new trial? Do you think that there is a disparaging treatment? She got two life sentences and Lindsey Clancy may, you know, she may get acquitted? Oh, I'm sorry. I got disconnected for a minute. I didn't know that question was for me. I can't say necessarily that this case is what led to that. This obviously was, you know, working its way through the court system. And I do believe that we do still have judges from trial court judges all the way through court of appeals.

32:19But the one thing I also wanted to add on because I dropped off for a minute is that I think one of the positives of why you see so many women stepping up in support is because, frankly, over the past couple of decades, many in the public at large have a better understanding of mental illness and the seriousness of it. I think that the one thing that can be spoken about publicly is something that people don't have as much shame around sharing, even journalists like you who have spoken about it written about it, interviewed people about it. Every time we do that, that is helpful. I think that that is ignoring the children are not caring for the children at all. I think it's the opposite. I think what many of these women are saying and I stand with them is that if we do not ignore women when they are trying to reach out and begging for help, then we don't just help them and save them. We are saving children. We are we are bringing safety for everyone.

33:29Well, Monique, thank you. We got the sentiment of what you were saying. Thank you very much. Monique, Presley, thank you, Dean and all. And thank you so much. Just Diane Keesle. And it's good to see all of you again. We appreciate it. Thank you so much. And I also want to thank Rose Devaro and thank you. I don't know why I'm so tired Rose who say when I said disparagement, I meant disparity. And I am someone who does not mind correction if I got something wrong. So thank you for correcting me on that. Okay, with me. Let's bring in the doctors. Dr. Frida is here. Dr. Judith is here. Hello, Dr. Judith Joseph is here and Dr. Frida, they're both here. And we're so happy we're going to talk about this. This is a very important story. I need to get a word in from our sponsors and I can't I can't wait to hear from you guys. Pardon me, I'm a little bit late because I got so tied up in the legal aspect of it now. Let's dig deeper into the medical part of it. First of word from our sponsors. We spend a lot of time in the show talking about numbers, whole numbers, prices, interest rates, approval ratings coming out of Washington, right? All day long. That's all you hear.

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35:39Thank you sponsors. Dr. Frida is a triple board certified medical doctor with certificates in mythology, hypertension and diabetes. And Dr. Judith Joseph is a board certified psychiatrist and researcher specializing in mental health and trauma. And also the author of this new book called High Functioning Overcome Your Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy. Thank you. I did get it. You asked me to get it. Thank you for joining. I said that we should in the beginning of the show in my monologue. We should not forget the children here and it's true. And that's why have you noticed we have all women on this program and that is by choice. Sometimes it just works out that way. I wanted to make sure that I hear it from women because I didn't need some guys up here explaining to me what a woman's mental health and what her body is about because they don't know I'm just saying. Maybe you know as a medical doctor, but you don't live in that body. Thank you for joining as someone who is, you know, who deals with psychiatry and mental health. Dr. Joseph. What's going on here and today is what's to say, I don't know if you qualified that way, a win for mental, you know, I don't know if there's a win in any of this. But yeah, I think you know what I'm asking.

36:55It is a tragedy and it's unfortunate what has happened here, but there is this positive that has come out of it. We're talking about mental health issues. And I think that what's so confusing for people is that, okay, on one hand this person says that she was psychotic, she had these delusions, these hallucinations. And on the other hand, she sent her husband out. It looks, there are elements that look premeditated. But here's the thing about psychosis, especially in the postpartum, it's very different than what you would think a psychosis looks like in a primary schizophrenia. There can be periods of lucidity where you're clear and there are periods where you are completely overwhelmed and lost with reality, you've lost touch with reality. And that's why it's important to understand that there's something called capacity. Medical capacity is when you understand what's happening, you're able to incorporate the facts, you're able to appreciate how the what's happening applies to you. You're able to, you know, weigh the risk versus the benefit you're able to make a decision. But when you have a psychosis and hallucinations and these command auditory hallucinations are telling you what to do and you truly believe that if you hurt your children, things will get better.

38:10Then you don't have capacity. And I think that's what people are struggling with here because this person, Lindsey Clancy, looks all put together, she looks, quote unquote, normal. But we're starting to challenge our idea of what we think mental health issues, like what we think mental illness looks like. Dr. Frida, you've been paying attention to this trial. She tried to take her own life as she jumped out of a window. She's in a wheelchair now. When you sit and watch her in that courtroom and and and think about the things that she's charged with what's gone, what she's gone through, what are you as a medical doctor feeling and thinking? As a medical doctor, I'm thinking how difficult it is for women to be heard and specifically when it comes around motherhood, there are so many expectations, so many stereotypes, oh, a mother's instinct. And so it's difficult, I think for many women to sympathize and empathize with someone who actually does something so drastic.

39:14But stepping back and in the bigger lens, the fact that we do know that so many women experience postpartum blues, I think they can understand that if you're feeling a little sad, a little depressed, but the part about psychosis, I think it's difficult for people to understand. So as I sit back and I look at her, all I can think is how difficult it is for women to be heard, how difficult it is to empathize in how there is no win. There is no win. This is a tragedy and it's just really a tough case non this one. Yeah, how do you decide? How do you decide? The legal part is deciding the punishment, but how then do you really decide if this person, look, I would say in order to do that to your kids, there has to be something wrong. There has to be something mentally wrong with you because people just don't decide to do that. And look, I don't know if I'm being massage and sick or not, but especially a woman or mother, usually women do not obviously do that. I think that's what they're doing, and I think that's the reason why I'm talking about that with their kids. And look, I say, speaking to D.O. Hugley and he said that that happened to a man that's this whole different story, but a man did that it would be a whole different story, people wouldn't think twice.

40:23But if it happened to a woman, people think twice about it because that's just not usually in a woman's nature. Is that clear to say, doctor? Well, actually, you know, with postpartum blues, 80% of women experience the blues. And the blues could be sad. And the demarcation is that, okay, with postpartum depression, it's more severe. You lose your functioning. But the blues, 80%, so I think what we're seeing here is this power social relationship where a lot of these women are connecting to Lindsey because they themselves have experienced the blues. But yet there is this dichotomy, right? Like, you're happy to be a mother, but you're also experienced sadness. So it's a conflict. And I think that this is giving people a lot of courage to speak up about what it's truly like to be giving birth. When women give birth, they have to go through things like breastfeeding, sometimes infections of their breasts, sometimes dealing with C-section, sometimes not even able to go to the bathroom. There's all this pain that as a mother, you're not feeling as if you can share because you're supposed to be happy. So I think there's that power social relationship.

41:23And Lindsey Cleanser, she was a medical professional. This is someone who went to a good hospital, went to good doctors, was supposed to get the right treatment yet the system failed her. And the judge was talking earlier about medical mistrust. Unfortunately, these days there's a lot of medical mistrust. And so rather than looking at Lindsey as the villain, a lot of people have switched their focus to the medical system as failing women. They become the villains in this situation, which was unfortunate because I think that this case could have happened to anyone. Postpartum psychosis is rare, but when it happens, it's an emergency and very good doctors can miss it because it is very different than other forms of psychosis. It's Dr. Frida, I see you wanting to weigh in on that because I was going to say when you come in, do you get women with the blues and do you get women with the psychosis? And yeah, go ahead. But for me, yeah, no, you're good. Sorry. Yeah, as an effrologist as a kidney doctor, I take care of many pregnant women who are dealing with preeclampsia or kidney related issues and high blood pressure. And so with a case that's so complicated, I do think that the best thing to do is to take it and see where we can learn.

42:29And so, yes, we know that over 80% of women do deal with postpartum blues, and so that's understandable. And then I believe something like one in seven women actually deal with postpartum depression. And so you have people who deal with that. But when it comes to the psychosis, it's so extreme that sometimes it's hard to take in and digest. But here is what I believe a good learning point would be. It would be not just with obstetricians, not just with family doctors, not just with internists, but for everyone to start to recognize the signs and the symptoms. Right? If a mother is telling you that she's overwhelmed, if she's telling you that she has the inability to experience pleasure, she's telling you, or if you see that her hygiene has gone, she's not bathing. She's not eating. And then if you catch it then, I believe that all of us should be screening, you know, especially physicians, but even just love the ones checking in. And if you start to see signs and symptoms, then act then right now, you know, it feels almost like, you know, an overwhelmed because we're talking about something so extreme, someone taking the lives of her children, you know,

43:29it's letting her throat, her wrist, and so it's hard to deal with it there. But if we go back to the early stages and prevention, and all of us start to look around and instead of just assuming, oh, you're so lucky, you have that bundle of joy. Oh, you have, you know, a husband and 2.5 children. If we start checking in and checking in on the strong friends, checking in on the women, especially if they're their firstborn child, checking in on women who already have a mental health history, right? So like, because if you have bipolar disease, for example, you are at an increased risk. So I think this is something for us to not have to try not to have to be at a point where we're dealing with this case where it's so far gone with psychosis, but to start taking it upon ourselves instead of just buying pink and blue booties for new moms, really start doing mental check-ins in order to catch them at the postpartum blues depression to nip it in the bud when we can so they get the proper help. So it's pretty much all that we can do, I think. Check out Dr. Frida's on the Dr. Frida show on YouTube. And it's a great show. Close to a million subscribers or have you hit it?

44:32We have over a million. We have over a million. We have over 70,000. Oh, okay. And we're very proud of you. And it's a good place to get information. Also, Dr. Judith Joseph is a social, you're on social. You don't have a YouTube show, right? But you have social media. You do your things on social media. And her reports, that's where I found her. I was like, well, these reports are really good. And don't forget to check out high functioning by Dr. Judith Joseph. Thank you, doctors. I appreciate it. And thank you for being so nice to me. Your bedside manner was great. Because I'm just a dumb dude. I don't know about this. I'm just trying to offer some assistance and guidance and information to the audience. And you guys did a great job of helping me. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Thank you very much. We're not done yet. I'm worried from our sponsors. We're sponsored by Cover On. So I want you to pick up your phone for a second. I want you to think about what's actually on there. Think about that. Your email, your bank account, your password, your photos, your contacts, probably more personal information than you even realize.

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46:34Look, I have to be honest with you. I wasn't following it that much. One I have because this happened the same time during the Nolan Wells trial and that took up all of my attention here, not that it wasn't an important story. But I'm our the interest of our audience sometimes lies elsewhere when this one when it got closer to the information around what this being or mental health and women's health and all that. Then I it was worth covering. But not just because everybody else was intrigued by it. This is a really big story to have those women's if you can show the ladies outside of the court room again. This is what indicative of how people the public sentiment at least in some quarters around this particular story. These women are out supporting Lindsey Clancy because they think that the system failed her. And as Monique said,

47:40it's perhaps she had better care and people took women's health a bit more seriously and especially postpartum psychosis and depression and all of those things as the doctors call the blues. Perhaps these children would still be here. And so these women. And it's not it's not often I have to be honest that you get to see this kind of support. Especially with the number of women who we featured in our earlier show and that we featured today on this show. Other women who have dealt with this and did not get this kind of encouragement and support from women. And a lot of the folks who did not are black women who did not get the support. And we know about the disparity. Thank you very much for correcting me on that in health treatment among women and men versus men and then also women of color versus white women. So that's where we are right now on this particular story. And I think we need to think about that.

48:47I don't know. But as the judge said, she doesn't believe that there's going to be a retrial. Monique Pressy agreed. Dean Adal said she she disagrees because it's such a high profile that's become so political. It's so high profile and it's become so political. I don't know. I don't care about you know the hoop law rounded and whether it gets ratings or not. It doesn't matter. Some stories are just important where you need to open yourself up and sit back and do more listening than talking. And I would say that especially for my conservative friends who are on the right and for my liberal friends who are on the left. I think that we should do more listening to these women than talking about what we think and this and this legal thing. Let's just listen for a bit. That's the best way to learn. You don't hear people when you're talking. So I'm going to shut up for now. And we said we're going to have DL on DL by the way, DL roasts officer Tatum.

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