Bregman Or Cabrera?! Who Makes the Bigger Impact in Chicago? | CHGO Cubs Podcast

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Hey Chicago, what do you say it's the CHGO Cubs podcast?

It is Monday by Thursday will be in the sun of Arizona.

Luke Stuckmire, Joey Kostopoulos, Justin Roman Sarah,

running the ones and two.

Go Cubs, yes, there it is.

Thank you.

And a guy, Michael Sirami, for bleach your nation.

First of all, Michael, I know you're gonna want to hear this

because anytime anybody can go to sunshine,

we're just gonna promote this trip real quick.

Real quick, okay?

Here it is, we leave Thursday and we get out there,

and we go to a Cubs game.

We're gonna be the Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

I've been to spring training since when?

2016.

2016.

And what happened to charm is back.

The good luck charm is back.

What happened to 2016?

They're sending the old buzzard back out to Arizona

and we got a chance to win a world series.

You're like Maverick.

That's right.

They're sending you back to top gun.

We need you Maverick.

I have an aged like Tom Cruise.

I don't have the surgeries.

Anyways, we're going out.

We got the golf outing.

You can still sign up for that's coming up on Friday.

We have a meet and greet after the golf outing.

It's a happy hour at Poor Intentions, P-O-U-R.

Poor decisions.

Poor decisions.

You have poor intentions.

You have poor intentions.

I have poor intentions with everything I do.

These are poor decisions.

Poor decisions in Scottsdale.

Hey, it's seven to ten.

There's gonna be drink deal.

There's gonna be food and we're gonna talk Chicago sports.

So if you're in Phoenix or you wanna go or you know somebody

that's gonna be there, let them know about it.

All right.

Let's go to our guest, Michael Cerrami.

I know Michael back from the old NBC sports Chicago days.

When then he was called an outsider on his show.

Now he's one of the ultimate insiders in baseball.

And he breaks news.

He talks cubs.

Bleach your nation.

How you doing, Mike?

I'm doing good.

Thanks for having me.

I'm glad you're getting back out to spring training too.

We obviously need you out there.

Sure, yeah.

It's definitely about me.

No question about it.

So first things first, how do you just feel?

If you had to give the off season a grade,

that's what we've been asking anybody we talked to.

Like if you had to give the off season a grade,

where would you go?

What was your expectation going into it?

You know, honestly, I struggle not to give the cubs an A.

I don't know if they deserve an A plus, you know,

let's say if we're gonna split hairs.

But the way I sort of break it down is they accomplished

three main things.

And the first is they got a bat to replace Kyle Tucker.

You're not going to necessarily replace the first half

of Kyle Tucker with anybody who was out there, right?

But they got as sure fire of as an upgrade

to the lineup as they possibly could in Alex Breggman.

They got rotational upside, which is something

we wanted to make sure that they, that box that they checked

that was Edward Cabrera.

There was a few different ways they could have gone about that.

But they did it that way.

And then as a second sort of starter,

I'm sort of categorizing Shota Yamanaga as that guy.

I mean, I think they needed another starter.

He was sort of a free agent there for like a day

when the options were declined and everything.

I don't know, you know, in terms of if he were my first pick

for that second starter spot,

I don't think that's necessarily true,

but he fits the sort of category of guy

where, which is to say he has the upside.

And I think that's all that the Cubs really needed to capture

in that second starter.

I think there was a lot of different ways

they could have gone with that.

Some of those guys ended up accepting deals

before the offices and even began.

And then lastly, it was addressing the bullpen, right?

And there was a ton of closures available

in free agency this winter.

And they didn't really go out and get one.

However, you know, we've seen the Cubs build bullpen

bends in their way before.

I don't think that's what they did this winter.

I think they went up a tier, right?

They spent almost 30 million on their bullpen

a bunch of established arms.

And if what they're doing is sort of attacking

it the same way they have in the past,

but a tier up of certainty or floor

with the same amount of upside

as the breadcallers of the world,

then I think they did really well.

And so you look at it in totality

and it's like they got their starter, they got their bat,

they improved the bullpen.

How else do you really want them to have gone about it,

right?

That was pretty good.

That was probably the best I've felt

about an offseason feeling complete as I do right now.

And again, actually, I'll add,

even though this has been a long-winded answer to give us a grade.

I think that they upgraded the bench

pretty significantly too, mostly by way of Matt Shaw,

but they have a lot of really, you know,

interesting borderline guys for that fourth spot,

guys that have either done it in the big leagues already

like Chasmacormick or Michael Conforto

or guys like Dylan Carlson

who sort of have that prospect pedigree upside is still young.

Like, so there's just they did a lot and it feels good.

It feels very complete for once.

I'm not entering spring training.

We're not sitting here waiting for some guy

to find a deal that it wasn't there.

Or, you know, if only we had also done this,

it feels like, hey, we got a complete team.

I'm ready to go out and see what they can do.

So for that, they get nay.

Well, that's what Michael has made this spring training.

Refreshing and interesting, right?

We're using words in our lexicon that I don't think we

as Cup's fans have used the last couple of years,

like six man rotation possibility.

Who is the fifth outfielder, right?

And credit to Jed as you've already illustrated about the depth

that they've created and the roster competition

from the top of the organization on the roster all the way down.

So rolling it forward, I know it's early in spring training,

but I do think there were some definite winners of the weekend

when we talk about the Cubs and some of the games

were played.

So if you can name one, it doesn't have to be there's several, right?

But who, in your opinion, was the big winner of this last weekend

of Cup Spring Games?

You know, I think it was nice to see Alex Pregman hit a homer, right?

I mean, listen, I don't know.

He's a really interesting guy to follow.

I think that no matter what his presence on this team

is going to make a big impact this year.

We know he plays solid defense at third.

We know that even when he's not his best,

he'll be an above average hitter, a great leader, all that stuff.

But I also think that we sort of let ourselves

forget how crazy offensive, how crazy impactful he was offensively

in the first half of last season before his injuries.

I mean, this is still a guy who has been one of the best hitters

in baseball at points in his career.

And so I, you know, I'm letting myself believe a little bit

that he has one more like very legit season at him

before just being a very useful, very valuable part

of the team for the remaining years of his contract.

And so to see him hit that homer with that,

like such a simple, sweet, right handed swing.

It was nice to be reminded of like, yeah, you know,

maybe he's not hitting 40 homers.

But this is a guy that can hit 300.

He's a guy that can hit 25 homers who can slug,

who can get on base, who could, you know, I don't know.

I just, I think that we've kind of glossed over his potential

offensive impact for the, for the overall picture.

That is Alex Breckman, and I understand that.

But, you know, that was exciting.

I kind of reminded me of it.

So I'll go, Breck, piggybacking on that.

You know, Breckman was one of the best hitters in baseball

last year before the injuries kind of took over.

So it was Kyle Tucker and you saw what this lineup did

when a healthy Kyle Tucker was in the lineup of a better PCA,

a better CS Suzuki.

Do you think we're going to kind of see the same similar

production from those guys with a healthy Alex Breckman

in the middle of their lineup?

Or is it going to be at all different

when it comes to Breckman versus Tucker?

Well, you know, I, I think that it's possible.

I think what the one benefit of Alex Breckman is that he's a

righty, and I think this lineup needed another right handed,

like a legitimate right handed bat for the top half of the order.

We don't really know what Moises by the Starros is going to be.

He's a lefty, but I'm just saying, you know, we don't know

what he's going to be.

We don't really know how often Matt Shaw is going to contribute.

Another thing that we don't know is Nico Horner.

He's always been a good hitter, right?

But I think again, I think we sleep on that in the second half

of last year.

He was actually slugging a lot more than normal for him.

That's like 430, but if he's slugging 430,

I mean, that's a transformative piece of the lineup,

but I still think we needed a right handed bat.

And I think Alex Breckman bids that really nicely.

I also think that say as Suzuki is probably in store for a big

season, especially if he ends up taking advantage of the ABS.

I think I saw it today.

I can't remember exactly who put it out, but he was the guy who had

the most balls, called strikes and baseball.

It's like, geez, I mean, if he can use that to his advantage

successfully, I mean, boy, that could completely change his

entire slash line.

I mean, overnight without any changes, otherwise.

And just a quick follow up on Breckman, you did a great piece.

If anyone out there isn't following bleach or nation, like what are

you doing?

Just really fast, but I think you came up with a great piece and

something that I've been racking my head on.

And I think it's fun to talk about right now early in spring when

we asked the question with Breckman, where do you see him hitting

in the lineup?

And conversely, then where does Nico Horner slide into this?

Is Michael Bush the lead off hitter?

Is he the three, four, five guy?

And this is again, what's fun about this Cubs team and the

possibility and potential of this team is I can come up with four,

five different combinations.

I would, I'd probably thumbs up, right?

But for you right now, where do you see Breckman hitting in the

lineup if you had, if you were making the lineup?

Yeah, well, I'll answer this sort of two ways.

One, the way that I think the Cubs are going and that to me seems

pretty clear that they're thinking about batting him second.

They got Michael Bush leading off against most varieties, I think,

is going to be the way that this plays out.

And I think Nico Horner is going to lead off against all the lefties,

but the one through line throughout every spring training lineup,

which has followed those lead off hitter paths, depending on the

opposing starter, which is not always what you see from

manager, but he has had Nico leading off against lefties and Bush leading

off against righties is Alex Breckman has always hit second.

And I just, I'm not sure that they're doing that to get a

extra reps.

I think that's probably where he's going to hit this year.

Now, whether he should hit second is a different question,

but it sort of is an interesting one in that we, I don't know which

say us as Zuki were getting this year.

So set aside the ABS thing that I brought up is two years ago when he

sort of peaked offensively.

He was more of a well rounded overall hitter.

Last year, he leaned into the slugging a lot more, right?

Career high homers and a career high slugging percentage.

And it's possible that you want that guy just bad and clean up with, again,

depending on obviously the, the handiness of the starting picture.

But I could also see say a Suzuki being the team's best hitter,

maybe outside of Bush, who will be leading off.

And so if that's the case, you probably do want him batting second instead

of Breckman, right?

But then so many other factors come into play because again,

if Boyce Spiceros hits as well as I think he can and I,

I'm like a pretty high on him.

I'm very excited about him this year.

Then you might want him a little higher in the lineup and you can talk about

moving him as the top lefty after Bush and moving Breckman and Suzuki

around him.

I don't think we're going to start there though.

I think I think if he is the, quote unquote, everyday DH start the year

by a seros is going to start low in the order.

And then that changes the top of the order quite a bit.

But for now, it looks like Breckman's going to bat second.

And I think that's a perfectly fine way to start.

I think there's a lot of guys on the team where you could say, well,

if they do this this season, it could change the team.

But also the floor is pretty high for a lot of those guys too.

So that much, I think the Cubs have improved.

You also wrote on Bleach or Nation,

Braggman or Cabrera, who makes the bigger impact this off season.

And that's because both have, while they were great additions to this team,

both have some question marks like Breckman's not the guy that he was.

And Cabrera has been a guy.

The fastball has been a little bit of property hasn't put it all together yet.

So which one, if you had to put all your money down on it,

which one makes the bigger impact this season, Braggman or Cabrera?

You know, I wrote that headline.

I don't even remember where I landed because I remember being so 50,

50 about it when I was writing it.

And I was like, God, I could see like there's a lot of ways you could say,

Braggman's going to impact its team in ways that we don't see necessarily.

But for me, I think the Cubs front office and entire pitching infrastructure

has been locked in on Edward Cabrera for a couple of years now.

I think they got the guy they wanted the most.

And I think they're, I think they're pretty good about unlocking

the potential of guys like this.

And so I think it's going to be Cabrera who ends up making the biggest impact

because to me, he has true ace upside.

And I made this distinction on our site the other day.

Whereas Justin Steele has number one upside, he can lead any rotation.

I think what Cabrera has is ace upside.

And I sort of differentiate between who are the true aces in the game,

of which I think there are like six or seven, you know, like at any one season.

Whereas number one, there's a lot of guys, I can't believe I said six, seven

and didn't do it.

I didn't even need to do that.

I have an 11 year old.

Sorry.

I can't help you.

Hell you.

No, that's that's hilarious.

But I do think that where Cabrera has a chance to be like a legitimate ace

starting pitcher.

And so for me, that's going to be the guy that ends up making the biggest difference.

Um, because I think the rest of the lineup, the Cubs lineup can do well with

Alex Breckman being like a 130 WRC plus guy or like a 110 with great defense

and all the other things he does.

Whereas I work a bearer, I think can be truly like carrying this pitching staff,

especially in October, if he stays healthy and, you know, unlocks,

whatever the Cubs are trying to change or not change about him this year.

All right.

We're going to take a quick break.

When we come back, I want to ask Michael about this great children's book he has

coming out next month.

So it's barely like a month away.

You can pre-order it now.

Um, I want to get a bold prediction out of him.

And I want to ask him a little bit about maybe Ben Brown, if we have time.

So the wild car, the wild car, yeah, that's all coming up next on the CHGO Cubs podcast.

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Meet the new Greek and chicken heroes back with juicy season meats and cool

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Feeling classic?

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Want to mix it up?

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Either way, your lunch just leveled up.

Order online at jimmyjohns.com or on the app today.

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And participating locations for a limited time while supplies last trademark

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Jimmy Johns Franchise or SPV LLC.

Back on the CHGO Cubs podcast with Michael Sirami from Bleacher Nation.

We've been peppering him with questions about the Cubs for their off season.

But he also has something special coming.

I mentioned we work together at NBC.

Then he's at Bleacher Nation and he's breaking stories in the off season.

And in the meantime, he's now an author of a children's book.

Awesome.

Where did you come up with the idea for my first trip to the bleachers, which comes out?

I believe you said April 7th.

Where did this idea come from, Michael?

So, you know, some of you guys, some of your listeners might be black hawks fans.

We have a black hawks writer at our site, Tab Bamford, who had written the counterbredard

book recently and some other books.

And I had always sort of kicked around the idea of doing a children's book.

Then once I had a son of my own, he's now three and a half years old.

The wheels really started turning because we're reading a thousand books a month, right?

And I'm like, man, I could do this.

Like, come on.

I got to come up with something.

So, I asked Tab to put me in contact with some of his other publishers, pitched a couple

ideas.

We sort of landed on this one.

And my wife, funny enough, was a second grade teacher and then a behavioral specialist.

And so, she's sort of introduced the idea of like the feelings and senses and emotions

and things that you deal with when you are doing anything new, right?

And so, we were taking my son to Riggly last, or to July's ago, excuse me, for the like

family day event.

And it sort of got my wheels turning about that sort of book.

And so I came up with this idea where it's a story about a little boy who gets surprised

with tickets to go to CS First Cubs game ever.

And the actual story itself, although it contains the events of the game, is really more about

the things he experiences along the way.

It's like from being bored in the car and traffic, you know, on the way there to having to

go and use the troughs in the bathroom and those being disgusting.

Like, every one of us was at one point, a little kid and you walk up into those Riggly

bathrooms and you're like, it's like intimidating, right?

And you're like, oh, my God.

Or the other team hits a home run and someone throws the ball back and you're confused

about why that happened.

And that's sort of the point of this book is, before you go take your kids to their

first Cubs game or their 10th Cubs game, you could read this to them and they'll get

the confidence and expectations settled ahead of time.

It's sort of an old Mr. Rogers principle where you talk about what you're going to do before

you do it, right?

And that's sort of where this book is headed and what the idea is.

And it's, you know, it's a little funny.

There's some, there's some little Easter eggs for like the dads and moms that are

be reading this book.

Anyone who's been to Riggly is going to recognize these things right away.

And that was really the idea.

And so yes, it's available to pre-order now, but it's coming out in April 7th, so a

little over a month.

And I'm just really excited about it.

It's really cool.

The illustrator we got, Nora Reiter is a, she used to work at Murphy's.

She's a muralist.

So she does a lot of those like murals inside the cool restaurants in the city here on the

outside of those walls, like she's an awesome artist, also a local Chicago person.

So it's really like, it just was a fun thing to put together a cool little side project.

And, you know, the little boys like modeled after my son, Leo.

And now I have a daughter though, of course, so I have to come up with a second book,

unless I'd be reminded of that for the rest of my life.

So yeah, that's the idea.

And I hope anyone who has kids or nephews or nieces or birthday presents to give or Christmas

presents considers getting it because I think it's, I think it's fun, but I also think

it's, you know, it could be pretty useful for the, for the parents out there.

So yeah, my first trip to the bleachers.

Awesome.

I cannot wait to order it because I have a, I have an 11 year old, but also have a two

year old.

So perfect for my two year old, you know, and the whole night, I got to say though, you have

a daughter.

Here's a little idea, free idea, okay?

The sequels are riding themselves.

My first time to the UC, my first time to, you know, all that stuff, like there's your

sequels, man, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

My first trip to Texas.

I would be lying if the publisher had brought that up, yeah, the publisher was like, what

about soldier field?

I was like, all right, let's get this one out first and we'll see what's next.

I already know it's going to be a great book because everything he touches turns to

gold.

And number two, you mentioned the troughs.

And as I know with my kids, anything that involves a page with a potty incident is a

winner.

That's it.

That's a winner.

Any kind of potty page is always the best page on the book.

Michael Dad to Dad, when was the first time you brought Leo to, uh, really feel how

was he?

So, so it was last, not last July, the July before.

So I guess he must have been around two years old.

I mean, he was pretty young.

It was, it was, there's a picture of us in the book, actually.

We did that, the tour and stuff and we got to sit in the media room and I put that picture

in there of the both of us.

He ran the bases, did all that.

But I'm definitely excited to get him back there this year.

He feels like the first, he like watched the whole bear season with me this winter.

And it sort of knows what's going on.

You know, a couple of times he cheered when the other team got in the end zone.

We didn't quite clarify that we want the bears to get in the end zone.

You just knew that someone scored.

But I will say that I'm excited to bring him this year and this was not me pushing it

on him, but it's a good reminder.

The players that he has gravitated towards so far is PCA.

I don't know if they just mentioned his name a lot or it's easy to say or when he had

his blue hair that stuck with him, whatever it was.

And then Kevin El Contra, because they kept calling him the Jaguar and he had like bright

red shoes.

And it was like a good reminder for me, it was like, man, baseball, this was a blind spot

to me.

The things that kids might latch onto or connect with and you're talking about two guys with

huge personalities, fan favorites in their own sort of way, but they might attract a different

audience.

It was just a good reminder that for all the love we give to the, you know, Nico Horner,

Nancy Swanson, Ian Habs, like Kyle Hendrix of the world, the kids that we're trying

to make fall in love with baseball at their age are going to fall in love with different

things than we're going to fall in love with.

And so I'm just excited to see who he gravitates towards this year.

And if it's anything different as he gets older, you're leading me really quick into a

question I wanted to ask you because one, I'm excited for the adult Easter eggs of my

first day at the bleachers.

This is the drunk tank.

We don't go in there.

Right.

It was in the dough and fear snakes, but no, but also like I think this is such a great

book for young kids to have just because I don't know if you'd experienced this writing

it that did it harken back to when you were a kid going to games because I think it's

so perfect when you talk about all the senses and the stimulation of Wrigley field for

me.

I don't know what it is, but just the clock is the kid as a kid going to my first Cubs

game.

The clock was such a huge vivid memory of mine.

Do you know like what your vivid memory of Wrigley field is because there's so many

for kids to lash on to whether it is the red shoes, whether it is the ivy, whatever

that may be?

Yeah.

I think I definitely blended sort of my experience in my memories of my experiences with the ones

that I created and have created with my son.

I definitely remember and I put this in the book.

Some of the earliest Cubs games I went to and going and sitting out in the bleachers and

the seats being cold and everyone seeming to act like they knew each other in the bleachers

because that's just like the magic of the Wrigley bleachers.

And I definitely incorporated that into the book where it's sort of like why is everyone

high-fiving?

Like do they all know each other or why everyone knows the words to this song and it's

the seventh inning stretch or whatever it's going to be.

And so I definitely, I would say that.

I also say that I'm not trying to bring it back to those, but the troughs in the bathroom

were definitely a big part of it when you're a little kid.

I mean, we're all little boys at one point and you go into that bathroom, you've got to

stand next to people, shoulder to shoulder, and it's like this is gross, you know, now

it's like part of the fun and I wouldn't have it any other way.

But that was definitely had to be a part of the book, you know, for that reason.

And yeah, I'm trying to think of what else that I included from my memories.

I mean, again, the traffic on the way there being bored, that sucks and it's a part of

the experience.

And you know, if you're taking the train, it's a different experience or a boss or whatever.

For me, it was getting out 90 and sitting in the back seat of the car waiting for the

Addison exit to show up, right?

And so I sort of incorporated that into the book because again, it's not just about,

you know, hey, going to see a baseball game is fun.

It's like there's parts of this that are less fun, but it's the overall experience that

you're about to get that I'm trying to teach you about beforehand.

And then hopefully that makes the entire, you know, again, the entire Cubs viewing experience

better for the parents that bring their kids.

Like Antonio Alfonsoca, not, you know, or Rick Aculera or six fingers, like, why is he

a six fingers?

Why is he a six fingers?

Why is he a six finger?

Really catch, sure.

When you're old, I don't know.

Kevin Craig or Milton Bradley.

So PCI get that being a favorite.

My kid loves Shota because he sings in the shower on the commercials throughout the game

over and over and over.

How about a bold prediction for one of those Cubs players that you could, you could, you

could go to Leon say, well, I'm going to tell you what, if this happens for this guy,

this is my bold prediction.

You know what my bold prediction is going to be this year?

Man, I got a couple of fun ones, but I think one I believe in is I think PCI goes 30,

30 again.

I think he's, I think I think people have way overshot on how far the pendulum swung

back.

I know he struggled in the second half, but he also had an incredible second half of 2024

leading into the great first half of 2025.

And it's like that's completely erased from everyone's memory as though he only had

one good month or something.

No, he had like a full season spread over two seasons of elite performance.

And I think that he's the type of hard worker and immensely talented athlete that the Cubs

are going to be staring down another 30, 30 season from him and he'll join Sosa with

his second one, right?

But setting that aside, I think the one that no one again talks about enough is I think

Miguel Amaya is going to have a nice year.

I think we, I think he, the swing changes he made July of 2024 again, really started

to show the second half of that year and when he was healthy last season, he was really

good.

And he's, he's a former top prospect who has been, you know, just injured over and over

and that may or may not always be a part of his story.

But some of these injuries were not, you know, chronic things.

There are fluke injuries, things that happen down the field that aren't, as they are unpredictable

or they aren't necessarily, you know, indicative of things that are going to come.

But he could say healthy.

I think Miguel Amaya is going to, going to maybe take over the starting catcher role,

even if it's always going to be balanced with Carson Kelly, you know, a 60, 40, his favorite

thing by the end of the season, I really believe in him.

All right.

We got one more question from Mike before we got a lot of go.

Who wants to fire it?

You want me to do it?

Wait, are we inviting him to Arizona?

Well, yeah, hey, man, if you want to get out to Arizona, yeah, he, jump on board, right?

That's, uh, Mark.

Why are we doing it so good?

Hey, Ben Brown, the sinker.

Is that the most, what's the most exciting thing that we've had happened so far in the spring?

Is the, is that me?

The sinker.

The sinker development, I mean, obviously, is such a critical piece for him.

I think, I think it, I think it can be understated how much

one more effective pitch can completely transform Ben Brown.

He doesn't need his other pitches to improve.

He needs to keep hitters from sitting on the one or two

that he is only able to throw at this point.

Didn't quite work with the change up last year, obviously.

And so he's trying this new sinker this year

that has a lot of different movement of his four seamer.

So if that can be unlocked, boy, that could be

a difference maker, right?

But I think like, have you guys seen Gavin Hollowell pitch

this spring?

He's looked pretty good.

And I'm kind of like, I kick myself over and over

because last spring, Brett kept saying like,

have you been watching Brad Keller?

Like, Brad Keller looks awesome.

Brad Keller looks awesome.

And I was like, yeah, whatever brought him in on like a minor

weak deal, battling for bullpen's fight.

We'll see.

Obviously wound up being one of the most important pitchers

on the team last year out of the bullpen.

You know, Hollowell has looked pretty good.

And I'm trying not to get ahead of myself

has nothing to do with the results.

It's just the Christmas of his offerings, the velocity.

It's just like, boy, if he's figuring out his command

a little bit, you're talking about a very real weapon

to add to this bullpen, which is already a pretty nice mix.

But yeah, Ben Brown, I think that's probably more likely

to be an impactful thing.

And regardless of if he is, you know,

starts the year out in Iowa or is a reliever by the end

of the season, we're going to see him in Chicago.

We're going to see a lot of him.

He's an optional young arm with a lively fastball.

Like he's going to be around.

So if that third pitch develops, who knows what you've unlocked

and who you can have for not just this year,

but the years to come.

So that's probably the biggest development

this spring without a doubt.

All right, Michael, thank you.

Of the book, again, available now pre-order on Amazon.

It is my first trip to the bleachers.

You can also read Michael's work of course,

bleacher nation, great follow.

He and Brett do a spectacular job there.

And part of the Cubs nation.

So, hey, man, we appreciate your time.

Let's do this again in like a month when the book comes out

because I want to go page by page through this.

And I want to be the one to read.

I want to, can I do the audio for it?

I want to do the audio book.

Luke does the audio for it.

Oh, I know.

I'm here again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Let's do it.

All right, Michael, thanks for your time.

Appreciate it and have a good rest of the week.

Thanks, guys.

Good talk to you.

And we'll talk more about Cubs baseball, including Ben Brown

and some of the other things and our big takeaway.

Coming up next on the CHGO Cubs podcast.

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Back on the CHGO Cubs podcast,

Michael Ceramic, great from Bleacher Nation.

Now we're gonna do our big takeaway presented

by Xfinity, imagine that.

What's our big takeaway from over the weekend?

Well, there were plenty of opportunities,

but the big takeaway, Mr. Justin Steele,

cleared by doctors to go back to start ramping up

for a regular season with the Chicago Cubs.

This is happening fast.

Yes, it is.

Real fast.

And he's cleared.

That doesn't mean he's gonna break camp

and start the season at Riggly Field.

He's not, right.

It's gonna be Mayor June still on target

for what he said, Mayor June.

But he feels great.

There's nothing he can't throw.

He can start as if this is the beginning

of his spring training and start getting ready.

What is the impact of this?

And how excited are you to see what will happen

for Justin Steele?

For me, I don't expect a ton in the first half of the season.

I think they could be very cautious about it.

But this is just a terrific sign

and I'm super happy for him.

Yeah, I think it's a testament to his work ethic

and the fact that he didn't solve.

He's like, you know, I mean, listen,

it's sucked for him.

Suck for us cup fans, but like he got after it.

And he's been doing those videos.

His wife's been filming, I mean,

he's really all in on the rehab.

And so it's a testament to him and his work ethic.

So I'm very, very excited.

I'm with you.

I don't even want to think of Justin Steele

in the first half of the season.

Jed built a pitching staff that was

stand not having Justin Steele for the first half, right?

So, but once he comes back and if he shows

that he's a Justin Steele of old,

I mean, man, it's an embarrassment of riches at that point

because we just talked about Ben Brown as well.

I mean, like we, it's a great place to be

if you're a Cubs fan because we have pitching depth,

but man, adding a dog like Justin Steele,

let's say half way through the season.

Sky's a limit.

Yeah, first impressions, congratulations to Justin Steele.

Like this is the hurdle that you want to declare

when the doctor gives you the thumbs up and the green light.

I mean, that's music to his ears

and I think also to Cubs fans as well.

I'm curious about what the next steps are, right?

He had kind of intimated that bullpen sessions

were going to increase to 35 to 40 pitches.

He was going to start spinning the ball a little bit more

for Cubs fans out there.

Again, I think we continue to just caution that he's cleared

to now basically begin spring training now

or maybe even free spring training,

free spring training like February throwing now.

So when he says May's last June,

I personally, when all this happened,

I said, if we get him back in July,

I think that's a bonus.

So May June is ahead of that prediction.

And if that happens, I think that's great for him.

The question Luke is twofold.

One is starting to throw that curve ball a little bit more.

And then the one that I have is that once he gets that pitch

count up a little bit more,

of course, he's going to begin to throw a few rehab starts.

And if you see anything with spring training,

these guys typically need sometimes,

not just three, but sometimes four or five,

maybe even six starts at the rehab level to come back.

My question is, is Justin Steele going to take all those

at the triple A level or could you utilize some Justin Steele

at the major league level in a very much

a protracted pitch count?

Like, is Justin Steele coming back to the major leagues

and throwing 80 pitches in his first start?

Or we bring in Justin Steele back to maybe throw

40 or 50, which leads a little bit into what you've

like to talk about all winter long with a six-man rotation

or a piggyback situation?

I would not want to bring him back,

and I don't think they're thinking this,

but I would not want to bring him back in clean inning,

give us two innings in the bullpen.

I would like him to see him be, quote unquote,

an opener, but like a three inning opener.

That's what I would like to see.

Give him the pitch count when they finally decide

to put him in a game, say, okay,

you're going to do three to four innings,

depend, or this amount of pitches,

hopefully that gets us to three or four innings,

and then Ben Brown is going to finish it

on the other side or two, totally different pitchers.

It's a nice matchup, and that's how we're going to go.

You know, you look at, and Michael talked about this

about the, you know, you can easily come up

with one through nine now in the rotation.

And that's when Steele comes back,

but it's not including Wix, it's not including Colin Rae

most likely to start a nine-to-five,

like Sloan Park gun.

The Cubs have these opportunities.

Now, if, let's say he comes back,

let's just be conservative and say it's,

all right, it's more like end of June,

pushing towards Fourth of July,

and then it's definitely before the trade deadline.

If you can see some positive results,

it allows you to do some creative things

at a trade deadline if everybody's healthy.

And if everybody's not healthy,

which is the way more likely scenario,

just based on the health of some of these guys

and the way baseball has started to trend

over the last five, six, seven years,

it's all gonna iron itself out.

But I'm fascinated to think, okay, when season starts,

these are the five or six starters they're going with.

And then at the end of the year,

these are the five or six starters that they're going with.

And then when you get to the postseason,

these are the four guys they're going with.

Like, how will that all work out because of health?

How will that work out because of effectiveness

and still even mention?

This is going to be like,

it's not important at the beginning of the season.

It is, you want to win the games,

you got to win the division,

but the most important stuff's at the end.

So I wonder if he gave away the Cubs plan of,

really trying to ease some of these guys in early

in the season and that might not even involve him yet.

I just feel like, you know,

I want, obviously we all want a healthy Justin Steele,

but every season is sacred.

And I don't want any like teetering happening during the season,

meaning like, I want steel rehab starts, let loose, let loose.

I don't want to change the flow of our rotation.

And I want him to come up and be ready to win ball games.

And all the injury rehab stuff and all like the building up,

I want that down in the farm, okay?

I feel like we have enough depth to not need to do that.

You need a healthy Justin Steele for October

because if all things go exactly to plan,

having a healthy and ace like Cade Horton,

having a healthy and ace like Edward Carrera,

and having a dog and a former ace of the,

of the staff Justin Steele going in October,

that's, that's the goal, that's what you want.

I don't really care about June, July until he's ready.

And I would actually err on the side of like caution

versus like speeding him up.

So that's what I think is really fascinating

because these are all human beings

and they're all heavy, heavy competitors, right?

So, you know, what do you say?

You start every fifth day, okay?

So just do the math.

Four starts is about 20 days.

If Justin Steele goes to AAA and he has four starts,

and let's just say the final two are like immaculate.

After the 20th day, but he's only thrown in maybe 50,

55 pitches.

After the 20th day, the Cubs will have to make a decision.

Because he's not necessarily ready to go deep into a game

and give you 70 or 80, but it's also, it's Justin Steele.

He's chomping at the pit, no offense to AAA,

but living in Chicago and with the Bentley Club,

it's just better.

Yeah.

So if he's rocking and rolling after that four starts, right?

And that's the part where you want to be cautious

where you're like, no, Justin,

we need you to do two more starts

and we need you to get to pitch 60, pitch 70

before we bring you back.

That's the part that I'm just kind of like,

I'm just really curious to see how they play it.

And Luke, I think to your point, we're talking about it now,

but baseball has a weird way of figuring itself out with this stuff,

but I don't know, you know, if he's, if he's twirling,

but it's only 50, 55 pitches and he's like,

I'm ready.

What do the Cubs do?

And then again, how do they implement him back into the season?

What's the best case scenario for four starters

as you get down to the end of the season?

Not a, not the very end of the season

but as you're heading towards the playoffs

and you're looking at St. Man,

if these four guys are all gunning at the same time,

what's the best case scenario?

I think Matthew Boyd will be the opening day starter.

Okay.

I think that's who they're going to give it to.

He was an all star last year.

He was a veteran last year.

He showed up for him at the end of the season.

I don't think they're going to be like tie on to it.

I don't think they're doing showed up on opening day.

Hard enough.

And I don't think it's going to be Kate Horton

because he's a young player.

And that's usually a tip of the cap to a veteran guy

where you say, thank you for what you're doing

and for what you've done.

I'd actually, I'd actually wouldn't be surprised

if it was tie-on instead of Horton,

like in order of impeccant or I think it's going to be Boyd.

That's just my guess.

But at the end of the season,

the four guys I want to see are Boyd,

Steele, Horton, and then I sit there and go,

hmm, where's the next best option?

Like who?

Cabrero.

Cabrero, right?

That wasn't for a second.

I mean, he could be, he could be an,

he's a big ticket acquisition, you know,

he's got to be Cabrero.

Otherwise, if anybody wants to substitute out though,

because I do, I do have dreams of this sinker fixes Ben Brown

and now I've got fire there.

And where's he going to be best shoes?

I do have a dream of, yeah, the league did kind of figure out

the show to, but now he's going to come back and maybe

the spring training homers mean nothing.

And what if he did come back?

I still think it's Cabrero, Horton, Boyd, and Steele are the four

that I would want to see in a perfect world

pitching in the postseason.

And then a buddy of mine said to me, well, yeah.

But what if Jackson Wiggins is the real deal?

That's an argument.

Would you rather see him emerge at the end of the season

like Horton did and then say, he is ready.

I still think it's those four.

If I had to pick right now, those would be my four I want to see.

It's a great conversation.

It's a fun conversation to have versus back in the day

when we're like, oh, who's this guy throwing in?

Tyrone's a hard guy to ignore.

That's what we said.

But a good team should ignore a Tyrone.

You know what I'm saying?

Because they have so many better options.

Like Tyrone is awesome.

But if Tyrone is your ace, you got problems.

And I love James and Tyrone.

But I'm saying like a good team should be able to be like,

yeah, Tyrone, you're the fifth guy.

You know, like a good team, a good rotation

should have better options.

And the Cubs, if all goes well, they do.

And none of this should be a surprise to any of the players

because we had these conversations last year

where as you are entering July,

you're like, no, show us still on the rotation.

Show us, earn the spot.

But showed up pitched his way out of that contention

and honestly a lot of the Cubs fans confidence.

So the way that the rosters built this year specifically

is that these guys are going to have to produce and perform,

right?

They're going to have to compete a little bit against each other

to see you gets the ball.

Luke, I like your idea of Matthew Boyd pitching opening day

for two reasons.

The first one is, if he goes off and pitches in the WBC,

you can, cause they have the day off on that Friday,

you can sort of reset Matthew Boyd

and give you that extra day, however you want.

And then in theory, right?

That Saturday, starting that Saturday, Justin,

you're rolling out Kate Horton and Edward Cabrera

or whatever it is.

And then that's the true order of your rotation moving forward.

You get Boyd that extra day, he pitches on opening day

cause he deserves it.

He's a veteran, he can handle it day off on Friday,

come back on Saturday, it's Kate Horton on the mound

and Sunday, it's Edward Cabrera, your rotation's lined up

and then rock and roll.

And the depth of the rotation is really good.

And you want a bold prediction for me.

Yeah, let's go.

They're going to, they're going to need 10 starter.

They're going to need at least 10 of those starters, right?

That's just the way it goes.

Somebody's not going to pitch well.

Somebody's going to have a little 10 to 90s in the yellow.

Somebody's going to have a sore shoulder for a month.

Like that just goes that way.

I bet you we see people that'll start games

as you're not an opener, right?

OK.

Steel will start a game.

Boyd will start a game.

Showed all started game.

Cabrera is going to start a game.

Horton's going to start a game.

Ben Brown's going to start a game.

Feel good, Colin Rae will start it.

Colin Rae is going to start a game.

Assad.

I think Assad will start a game before it's all said and done.

Yeah.

And the other part about it, Jason Wiggins, I mean, he's going down the list.

The other part about that too is I'm not going to sit here and say, like, let's say

pick Tyrone, pick any of these pictures.

And let's say that they they falter.

They struggle out of the gate.

Chef Kevin Pender, yes, chef.

Tyrone has given up six runs and an inning and two thirds.

We can have the conversation about how you like to take your spring training.

I don't think he cares about it.

He's one of those veteran guys that's just working on like today.

I want to see if I can control the fastball and they don't care about the results.

But the question is when we get into the regular season, if one of these guys falters,

I think when we talk about the leash, when Craig Council, I don't think it's going

to be like, if you're bad for two starts, you're out of the rotation.

I don't think that's how it's going to go.

I think he's going to run his veterans pretty hard.

But if a guy is struggling or if Shota continues to have the home run bug, I could see the

leash getting a little bit shorter in game, where you're just not, maybe there's some

days where like, if Shota doesn't have it after two innings and a third, his day is

just done in late May, because they can bring someone else in.

Yeah.

When you talk about the embarrassment of riches of the inventory of the depth or whatever

it is, it allows Craig the flexibility to say, look, man, I just don't think you have

it today.

You're not losing your spot in the rotation.

But if you don't have it today, where it comes Ben Brown, it comes out of your side.

Let's get in a different look.

Let's try and salvage this game and that might be a luxury that Craig Council will be

able to afford this year.

And Corey Seacrest is a very good point.

Having depth will definitely help in a world baseball classic year.

Who knows how they'll impact everything in some health.

I mean, you got some guys that are that are that are throwing some guys that are playing.

So obviously, yeah, I mean, it's good to have depth and that is one thing about the

clubs and not just in our rotation on this team, we have depth.

We have infield depth, you know, we got a bunch of guys trying to then calls his back.

Your guy, your guys call us, I don't even know, but he's got no idea what did we do without

him for 11 days, you know, but he was gone from a human standpoint, like, how does that?

You're at home.

Like, what are you doing?

Are you at home?

Are you flying back before?

He flew and then he was back to stay in the plane, hover over the city and just wait

for the landing.

He's getting paid.

He's a ball player.

But man, where is he going to end up?

You know, it's been the water, right?

Yeah.

Okay, so let's, let's go to what we're talking about the depth.

Let's go back to what we were talking about with Michael, more impact, Cabrera or

Braggman.

I don't have a hard take on this one.

This is one where I would love to come up with like five categories before the season

starts or five players each.

I wouldn't mind picking them on a scale, but, but I also think you could, you know,

just divide into categories and be like, all right, you get Braggman.

I get Cabrera.

And at the end of the season, say, all right, who has more stars on their lives, even

if we didn't pick them because this one is, I think Braggman is the more likely got,

he's the more certain of the two players because his career has been more proven track

record.

He also had injuries last year and Cabrera has probably higher upside because of the age.

Because of the track record, I'm going to say Braggman.

Yeah.

I mean, you guys know how high I'm on Edgar Cabrera.

I think Edgar Cabrera could possibly be like one A, one B with Kate Horton for us for

years to come.

Not just this year for years to come.

I'm that high on Cabrera.

I think 2026 Chicago Cubs, the bigger impact, I think it's going to be Alex Braggman.

I think that we've talked about him being an actual better fit than Kyle Tucker on this

team.

I think that you saw with a healthy bat like Kyle Tucker in last year's lineup for the

first half.

You saw everybody else rise.

You saw production on a PCA Suzuki.

Everybody that the offense was the best offense in baseball with a solid Kyle Tucker.

Well, Alex Braggman could be that solid, solid veteran bat and everybody's better because

of it.

It seems you're lying.

But Danzby Swanson's batten, you know, seven eight nine, you're in good shape, you

know?

So I really do think Alex Braggman plus I just, again, when I talk about the fit, he wants

to be here.

He's embracing Chicago.

He loves Cubs fans.

It's like everything about it is like, good juju and I think that Alex Braggman will have

the bigger impact on this team, Ben Cabrera.

And I love Cabrera, by the way.

So yeah.

It's a clean sweep.

I'm with you on on Braggman just in terms of a bankable bigger, bigger impact because

I know the stuff is there with Edward Cabrera and it's the potential is really tantalizing.

But the, what is, what is the ceiling for him?

It is hard for me to project because, as you said, he's never really reached any sort

of, I mean, last year he had 26 starts.

He looked good in the second half, but we don't really know is he a 20 game winner, right?

Is he a scion candidate?

I think he can be an all star, right?

And his stuff definitely speaks for itself.

We can all see that with our own eyes, especially over the weekend and we were like, yep.

That checks out.

That looks pretty good.

But I'm like, I'm a little bit like smaller goals with Edward Cabrera this year.

You know, stay healthy, control the zone.

Maybe don't let everybody get 200 in in.

So I'm winning 25 games.

I got 300.

You know, be a little Bob, be a little Gibson.

You know what I mean, put them together.

We're, and I'm with Michael Sirami.

I'm with you guys that I do think, I think Alex Breggman has at least one really ultra elite

season left in him.

I don't think he's going to hit 41 bombs like he did in 2019, but he threw the word 300 out

there.

I, I, I, I could see Alex Breggman hitting pretty close to 300.

And you mentioned it too about how the success that he had in Boston before the quad injury

last year.

I think he was saying close to 290.

It was a 290 something when that happened really good for a full season.

The good vibes.

And of course, all those intangibles of the leadership, the day in and day out.

He's really solid.

Third base.

He's a guy.

If he does hit number two in the lineup, that's going to be pretty damn important in terms

of impact.

So Breggman seems like the easy call on this one.

I just think people are really excited to see, frankly, the unknown of Edward Cabrera out

there.

I just want to see him out there, right?

Like him throwing 96,000 or change ups over the weekend was cool.

More of that, please.

And I'll just be happy with that for now.

If he is the bona fide ace that Michael was talking about, then that would push him

over.

They listen, the, as Cory mentioned in the chat, the everyday player, right, six days

a week, seven days a week is generally going to have more impact than a guy who might throw

every six days, unless that guy is one of the seven elite starters in all of baseball.

Now that's what it would take for Cabrera to push ahead.

But the flip side can be true of Breggman.

We talk about everyday players.

If he's playing six, seven days a week, and it's just meh, well, then the impact isn't

the same.

So I guess it depends on how they're specifically playing.

But I would stick with the everyday player in Breggman and the proven track record in Breggman.

But I'm as far as most exciting player going into season like guy that could, you know,

we'll do an X factor podcast.

I'm sure Cabrera's on that list.

PCA is on that list.

Matt Shaw could be on that list, Kate Horton, Mo Baller, Kate Horton, Kujaks and Wiggins

Latens season beyond that list, could steal beyond that list.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, I give you 10 guys that could be on the list, and the cool part about pictures really

fast, Justin is just like, and I've done this as a kid, like you pulled the Chicago Tribune

and you look at all the pitching matchups for the day.

And it isn't so much as like, hey, do you want to watch the Cubs game tonight?

It's like, hey, Cubs are on tonight because Horton is on the mound.

Right.

And Cabrera can be like that guy of like, it isn't just a normal Tuesday night Cubs game.

It's a Cubs game Cabrera is on the mound.

That's kind of the potential that we want for him.

And that's what can also make him interesting and entertaining.

We got that last year when Horton pitched.

Yeah.

Horton on the mound.

That was watching.

What do you do?

Well, Luke, when you were breaking down like the excitement level or whatever, like

you were, you really were kind of splitting up veterans and young guys.

And it's such a great place to be right now as a Cubs fan because we have the veterans.

Braggman, Swanson, Nico, Ian Haps, Suzuki.

And then you got these young studs, the PCAs, I put Michael Bush in there, Kate Horton,

and Cabrera, Palencia, like we kind of have created like the perfect balance of veterans

versus young guys.

So there's still a lot of like, we don't know their ceilings yet of like the certain

young guns that we have were like the veterans give you kind of a floor.

So I don't know, man, I'm really excited about this season.

I think it's almost like a perfect balance of the veterans and the young guys.

We're running out of time, but a fun one also is who needs to have a bigger impact.

The veterans being the veterans or the young guys taking the step forward.

The OGs.

The OGs versus the new youth or the young punks, the young punks, the Zoomers, apparently

we got in the comments too as well.

I hope to see all of them out in Arizona because we'll be there starting Thursday.

You guys will be at the Cubs game at Sloan Park on Thursday.

I get there a little bit later.

Listen, this is crazy.

Joey and I, you get to sleep in a little bit, you know, hanging out with the kids, you

know, I'll have the kids up and you know, I'll be up, pulling me, I'll be up.

Joey and I are up in like what, 435 in the morning, we're taking a 7 a.m.

flight.

You watch the Phoenix and we're going to the Cubs game that day and then we're meeting

up a Luke and then we're going to the Bulls game that night.

My nap after your nap and then I mean, then there's a golf out in the next day, then

there's two more Cubs games and we're going to be like, we are like, what is it sports

over everything?

I mean, it is literally sports over everything that you cannot wait.

So here's the deal.

It's presented by shady race again.

Some of this stuff is sold out, but it's all ala cart.

So you can go to whatever you want as long as there's tickets available.

I believe the Bulls game is now sold out.

Bulls suns game event is sold out, but I believe you can still get tickets to Thursday's

Cubs game, Saturday's Cubs game, Sunday's Cubs game, Sunday's Cubs game, Friday's

White Sox game.

The golf outing I believe is still available to come golf with us during the afternoon.

And the big one is we have a happy hour on Friday night.

Where's it at?

Where's it at?

Poor decision.

Poor ramifications.

Poor ramifications.

Now, before you Google it, it's P-O-U-O-S.

Yes, it's a poor decision.

Decisions.

It's a great spot.

A lot of Chicago people are going to be there.

We're going to be there.

We cannot wait to that.

Like, that's the solution.

We're going to hang out into guys seven to ten, seven to ten.

We're going to hang out with y'all the games is going to be great, but like poor decisions

that Friday meet up, that mean, it's like, that's where we're going to get to really

like let loose, you know, eat some food, drink some drinks, mingle.

That's going to be a lot of fun.

Phoenix is like Arizona is like a very, it's like Chicago light, right?

So a lot of Chicago ones are going to be there.

That's going to be a real fun night.

Yeah, it'd be like it tastes to Chicago.

So a bunch of Chicago Cubs fans and Chicago and hanging out all of us there.

It's a Friday night.

I think we have a soft confirmed that Lance Briggs may go to this.

Lance may come out and you know, and you know, we'll sit on stage and we'll talk sports

and all that stuff.

And we'll tackle Briggs.

And we're going to get their Thursday.

Yeah.

And maybe we could talk some other people in to come on on over there.

Maybe we'll get a pretty good group.

That'd be great.

Chicago sports bills.

So come on down.

Drink deal.

There's going to be some food.

And it's going to be a good time.

Seven to ten at poor decisions.

Yeah.

It's locked in.

He's locked in.

Oh, man.

How many times there's there's a poor decisions guy Matt Peck's going to be there.

Yeah, man.

Poor decisions.

He's made it out.

I'm in his life.

And yeah, it is.

It's spelled P.O.

You are.

So it's a poor.

The decisions for what you're going to pour.

Not you have bad intentions.

No, it's not.

Maybe a dumb name.

That's not it.

That's not it.

But it's going to be fun.

Hey guys, I mean, like we're a couple days away from like 80 degree weather.

Yeah.

Poor decision would be forgetting your sunscreen.

Listen, normally I don't do sunscreen.

Okay.

I'm half my skin.

I don't do.

But I am going to bring it down there because it's my first exposure.

I'm going to be a baby.

I'm going to be a baby.

Look at the cameras.

They're doing it.

It's like one of the women.

I can't reflect anything.

These babies.

Put a filter on that.

Please, sir.

There's just a ring I'm seeing in my sightline now.

I'm ready to try all the food, huh?

That's great.

All right.

So check that out on our website and make sure you pick out your all the car.

Thanks for checking out the CHGO COS podcast.

We're back tomorrow at two o'clock.

We'll be here Wednesday as well.

And then we'll see you in the desert on Thursday.

Until then.

Thanks for watching and fly the W.

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