BTC Hits $80K Then Dumps… Trap or Setup? #CryptoTownHall

0:00Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Crypto Town Hall every other day here on Exit 10, 15 a.m. Eastern Standard Time Bitcoin. Once again, take a shot at $80,000 and was rejected. I think no surprise here. If you take a look though, there's a lot happening under the surface yet another near record breaking week for Bitcoin spot ETF inflows now have to my knowledge. I haven't looked at this morning, but those be heavily led by BlackRock. Actually, BlackRock options now have once again surpassed there, but options in open interest, which is, I think, pretty telling of the institutional involvement in the space. Of course, we had the Trump meme coin gala on Saturday, which I know is very exciting for everybody here, because you probably all attended. And just a lot to a lot of unpack here, but I guess we could talk about sort of how Bitcoin is found.

1:00But at home here in the highest 70,000, I think that makes sense. Funding is flat. I think whatever technical move in shorts, there were to be squeezed, have largely been squeezed. And now we find ourselves sort of at that make a break point where, you know, 74 to 76 area below is support that was previous major resistance. Now we're kind of eyeing 80. So anybody on the panel jump in thoughts. Let's get it going. Somebody saved me. That's going to give a monologue. Yeah, I was looking at earlier today, you know, it still looks like we're in that bear flag going up. I see some liquidity above, you know, we kind of talked about this before. We hit over a couple of areas that we discussed in the previous shows. Yeah, I can see going as high as like maybe 87, you know, 86, 87 area if it's stretching for that liquidity. And then we're still in that range. And I still see a lot of liquidity building up below, you know, 65 area. And even if, you know, you want to look at the lower possibility areas, you know, 50 is some more liquidity down there as well.

2:15If there's some kind of capitulation event there that people want to consider. So that's kind of like the ranges I'm looking at. I see both of the 65 and 87 is being 78 to 87 is the range. But I see that being possible for being touched on both sides. Tom, I know you were jumping in there. I was going to say, you know, we're grinding up slowly. It's occasionally a setback, sometimes going sideways, but that hit from January that waived all the way down to 60 and then kind of stabilized at 66 is now $11,000 in the rear view mirror. And for me, the real question is, when are we going to start seeing the movements to take us back north of 100 K. And is that going to be this summer is going to be this year. And I think the positive and encouraging side like there's two fronts that are driving people's decision making who aren't just high frequency momentum traders who I don't think impact the long term price, which is on the one hand, you've got things like strategies stretch.

3:26Generating a lot of money that probably wasn't going to come into Bitcoin into Bitcoin. So that's that's upon the positive side. And it really is like a freight train running or a rocket ship heading into launching its second stage booster. So it's very significant. And on the downside, you have all this fight. You have the quantum fight. You have the and you have the exploits in defy that are getting people to question to be confused about the distinction between Bitcoin and crypto or to look at the whole space and say, you know, this is none of the none of the self sovereignty with all of the scaminess. So there's there's a tug of war. And I guess there's always a tug of war. But in this case, to me, it's one of secondary considerations to Bitcoin, right? It's not people buying Bitcoin directly. It's Michael sailor has invented a product that's getting people to give them money to buy Bitcoin indirectly.

4:27And it's also all sorts of speculative stuff that's driven by incentives that aren't in the incentives to pump the price or dump the price of Bitcoin, but it's to get a get an exit on a on VC thing or raise capital on a VC thing. So it's it's a noisy time. And but I think the one that seems more fundamental between those two forces that I described would be Michael sailor buying Bitcoin. And indeed. What what he can cause to catch fires, if his buying of Bitcoin is driving up the price of Bitcoin, that's going to drive a lot more people to be interested in Bitcoin. The secondary stuff around crypto. I'm not an expert in. I don't pretend to be and I don't really. I don't really come in. And you're the perfect person to ask about a meme coin, Gala. Yeah, I wouldn't go to one of those things even if they were safe to go to. Okay, so here's the thing to tell me. So this is what I find interesting and actually I can use you guys as research for my daily wealth show at noon because I was looking at this that I wrote a newsletter about it actually this morning.

5:31That's kind of the angle that I find interesting is that. So first of all, it was a meme coin down on Saturday. I think it's the 297 top holders of Trump meme coin are invited. But you had Kathy Wood there and pomp and Grand Cardone and Tony Robbins and Mike Tyson, right? I mean, which is like a pretty eclectic cast of characters. Palo Arduino from Tether was there. So I think I understand. You know, they had the world Liberty Financial Conference at Mar-a-Lago a couple months ago and everybody was there, right? Nobody I don't think was afraid. Richard, were you there? You were there, right? I was indeed. Okay, so I definitely see why everyone's like I would go to that. That was also before all the world Liberty Financial sort of controversy we have now, but like. Kathy Wood showing up at a meme coin gala feels destroyed it to me. So as it's like, yeah, they'll go to anything Trump because there's access and you know did kiss the ring or some people who can't avoid a party and there are some people who can't avoid a.

6:31You know, who believe that they can't avoid it's not because of their egos, but because of their professions, they think it's really important to show up to someplace where there's a big network and political connections and you don't want to snub someone who can pause you irrational harm. So some people might. Sorry. So I think that there are many reasons to drive people to come to these things, not necessarily because they think mean points are a great investment platform and should be promoted. Well, no opportunity. So I guess I should show up or else. Unless you have a really good excuse because this is, you know, the president of the United States holding down what was doing. She's doing her hair. I was doing my hair. My dog gave my homework. Good quality old school excuses to miss it because you know that the optics of this one obviously are politically charged.

7:32Right. I mean, this comes in the same weeks that we're talking about ethics clauses with the clarity act and, you know, the mean point gala certainly not going to help get the clarity act passed. And if this is one of I think actually what is even more interesting is we're giving I think for the first time some legitimate fodder to the anti crypto army. Right. I mean, I think we had four years of the anti crypto army and it was all irrational. Right. You were just endless attacks on the industry regulation by enforcement operation choke point 2.0 literally trying to kill it. But this time I think plenty of people are going to even though the intentions are wrong, going to see the Elizabeth Warrens and all them saying, hey. Trump shouldn't be profiting from mean coin Dallas. Yeah. So on something he's trying to legislate on and maybe people are going to actually start to align with the anti crypto army here, which I think is sad. But I guess there's a part of it, which is which is the better outcome or maybe the inevitable outcome. I either way, is it an outcome where.

8:32Mean coins, which are scams get a green light and that advances everything, but a lot of people get burned and remain very confused about the nature of what the technology here is and and capability or on the other hand. Everything gets slowed down, but you know, and some of these things get stopped at in the tracks, but Bitcoin of course marches on because it's decentralized and autonomous and unstoppable. I know like which outcome. I prefer as a pride on a pragmatic level, but on a principle level, it's like, no, Bitcoin, this industry needs to be attacked as far as it can be attacked. And the anti fragile indestructible parts of it need to survive and the rest of it can go that that would be my view. So I don't mind. If some of this bad stuff happens, I think people need to be informed, but if you're betting on something that's worthless and hoping that for regulatory support, because there's conflicts of interest.

9:34Then we'll pump the thing. You know what game you're playing and you know what the outcome is going to be. Yeah, so you do now, but even if you didn't at the beginning, you certainly do now. Yeah, so you do not. Yeah, and listen, I mean, there's an irony to the fact that meme coins partially rose so dramatically during the last administration, because they're the one thing that kind of had regulatory clarity, because you could say they had no till no utility or we're not a security for everybody bet on those, right? So it's sort of a focused funnel toward the meme coins, which is an interesting nuance. I'm going to go ahead. Yeah, interesting or very sad and disappointing, right? I was like, who paid for this thing, right? Like who paid for the Trump meme coin? I mean, I'm assuming it's from the tickets, all the crazy expenses that all these ticket sales that they were using for these top spots to attend. And it was clearly a poster billboard style event for the who's who's to draw people in.

10:35But I agree here that a couple steps forward, many steps back, and we just tend to be on repeat. I just feel like, yeah, I mean, if you want to do another crypto event for the sake of clarity and you want to tie it to the stupid meme coin, that's fine. But to have this kind of invite only exclusive thing and then center it around what's also had terrible performance, dying and in all practical purposes in many ways disowned after launch. It just seems completely backwards. So it just seems more backwards on backwards. I'm pretty disheartened with the fact that this is the thing that's getting all the glaring attention when there's so much innovation happening and so much critical legislature that's hanging in the balance. And I think we should all feel that way in the industry.

11:36Yeah, the only way I can frame all of this right now is kind of this push and pull between institutional adoption and the legitimate side of the industry growing while like the clown car on the other side is just as bad as ever. And it's like the own goals, endlessly, that we squar in ourselves, the meme coin, dialogue one. But I mean, even if you dig into or maybe you have more perspective on this, but I saw the debate over a big coin fork coming in August. Literally at the exact same time as they're already talking about potentially freezing Satoshi's coins and e-cash fork. And the developer says that the basically mirror of Satoshi's coins should not go to the Satoshi wallet, but should be used to fund the new fork and all of this because of quantum resistance. I mean, these are just not. We have all this infighting even in Bitcoin right now, Toma, right? So I mean, that looks like a clown show to the to the world too. Right. Yeah. So I think this is it. There's a lot of noise. You know, it's not related to the fundamentals of Bitcoin like a hard fork of Bitcoin is not is not Bitcoin and different people will have different perspectives, although most people have the same perspective of what it means to confiscate and we and seize Satoshi's coins in a hard for the generally apoplectic about it.

12:55But just to be clear, it's not his actual coins. It's the newly minted mirror of the coins. Oh, yes. It's not a lot of people think a lot of people are very confused about that. You're right. So even rather than calling them newly minted, it's like the copied coins in the in the non Bitcoin blockchain that is a duplicate of the Bitcoin blockchain with the exception now hard, hard coded in that those coins can be spent by the creator of this hard fork rather than by someone possessing the private keys. Namely Satoshi. So it's it's kind of a violation of the very first promise of property rights in Bitcoin that your coin your keys your coins. This is someone else's coins, not no keys, but I'm overriding it. So I think, you know, and this is attached to controversial idea that Bitcoiners and Bitcoin generally rejected called drive chains. So the individual behind it wants to launch his idea of drive chains. And he announced he's going to go ahead with it because he's tired of waiting for Bitcoin to adopt it as a soft fork. So he's going to implement a hard for it, which air drops one of these new coins. He's calling it e cash, which air drops one of these coins to everyone who holds a Bitcoin. So exact at the exact same address. He says he'll launch some kind of splitting mechanism eventually.

14:14But I don't what why you care so much is not obviously the first time that Bitcoin has been for it. Yeah, I mean, it's yeah, I'm just saying I'm just saying the optics. I'm talking about the optics. Yeah, that's not not a fundamental. It's the noise in the press right like on the margin, but there's but there's always noise. I really know that there is always noise. The focus on the noise when when it's not going up. The noise is around when it's going up. That's a good point. That's a good point. I mean, I do, I do feel like and maybe I need to just check my memory because the recency biases, which affecting this, but I feel like Bitcoins getting hit left right and center kind of in the way that it was when it was going up in 2017, right. There was blockchain 2.0 and ICOs and higher beta stocks or coins and Bitcoin test. Yeah, and there were hard folks. So there was all this other stuff. And it was all saying Bitcoin is dead. Bitcoin has a security budget problem. This and today we have. We have people within Bitcoin who are saying if we don't soft fork to prevent spam. We've got a problem. We've got people saying quantum computing is going to destroy Bitcoin. We've got still people talking about a city like there is a kind of noise that's getting press attention, which is spooking new entrance that.

15:29But your problem is always that we have an immense number of new entrance coming in. I don't think so. Who is selling. We just talked about all the money that was coming into the ETFs. Yeah, I think I was thinking about this this morning. Actually, we were talking about on macro Monday. I think that when you align the ETF flows, which I do think are very bullish. Obviously, that is some new entrance, but I think because if you look at the size of options on Ibit, which actually just surpassed open interest on. There are a bit you have to imagine that the bulk of Ibit buying is a part of a trade and not a fundamental belief. It's the carry trade. Right. So they buy you buy Ibit and then you short the futures and you earn a basically. And even so I think the question sell that was a trade. Who's who's buying with an intent to hold until at least 100 or maybe 200 or so. Right. And that's a question because people who are in and out and they're pretty sure sailor is. Yes, yes. That's the best argument. Yeah.

16:31But who else is right because if it's only him, he just ends up buying at the margin and setting the price himself and the price doesn't sustain so that we need. For enough people at some point to be buying for anyone. There we go. Okay. So problem solved. It's me. Hi. I'm the problem. It's me lawyer. Go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, historically, thought has been pretty a pretty good time to buy. Like there's always been fun. And it's always been pretty horrible. We usually have to think, okay, maybe it will go to zero. I think we don't have to worry about that now, but it is, you know, it is the time the price is going up and getting hammered if you compare to where it could be. And a lot of that is because of what we're seeing. Unfortunately, we did, like he said, we got rid of the crypto, the anti crypto army and then slowly sort of turned ourselves into it with what Trump and his family has done. Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot of sentiment hammering it down, but there's also institutional interest, which never used to be there. Like actual holdings.

17:37So if you like Bitcoin for the long term, fun is great. Fuzz when you can load up. If you were just holding and hoping it would keep going up them. You know, I don't know in the foreseeable future when the sentiment is going to flip. I think in two to three years when like we know who the next president is and this whole thing has played through. There's going to be a lot of people with significant money who said, Holy shit, that thing is going that that thing Bitcoin, which is part of this crypto thing, the whole thing is going to hell in a hand basket. It's going to be gone. I'm not touching it. Look at what Donald Trump is doing. Look at this. Look at, you know, look at all these terrible things happening in the space. The exploits in defi. There's a Toshi, the threat of quantified and they'll look at it in a few years time and say that thing's still around and it's. It's trading at or near all time highs. It's worth another look because I think that's what like the fun. The fun scares people away and cause them to dismiss it, you know, without doing research. And the fact that it's it turned out to not be catastrophic or even harmful when they revisit it a few years later seems to be a pattern with.

18:40You know, both small and large buyers who say, okay, I thought this thing was going well, you look even sailor himself dismissed Bitcoin in 2013 and said it's going the way of online poker. And then seven years later, it's like it's still here. Let me have a closer look and I mean, he's the poster child for having a closer look and changing your perspective. Yeah, and the fundamentals that got us looking in the first place are only growing right there's not like that some front has not come in and ramped down in, you know, inflation and the destruction of the dollar. It's or somehow made it so that you can print more big points all the fundamentals are there. People will become interested in again for the same reason. So much noise that I think that's the best best point. But I do think that this materially could impact the clarity act, which I think is dead in the water anyway. So I guess half the material impacts something that's already dead anyone else other thoughts on this topic.

19:45Today, if you attend the meme coin gala. Richard, I mean, having attended a similar gala. Not the soft target. I didn't go. I'm still in Africa, baby. The only way to the one you went to was basically a meme coin gala. I'm just kidding. Go ahead. We were we were live with Mike Alfred and Grant card on right after the incident that happened and they were just kind of describing what was going on and that was interesting. It was definitely at the core of spot and stinner. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Crazy. We live in wild times that those two things could happen in the same day, but I, you know, was Grant. Terry was grant wasn't at the correspondence dinner. He was at the meme coin gala, right? Yeah, he didn't. I didn't understand that last comment. I don't think they that action happened in more. Yeah, just clarify. Yeah, yeah. I think he went into the inside baseball on the gala. You know, I don't think he stayed.

20:48I think he went gave a speech and then left because he doesn't like the. He says when Trump shows up turns into a circus and it does, you know, you've been there. You see it. So I'm just glad I wasn't there. It either one of them. Yeah, it's a 12. It doesn't look like we're going to get a crypto bill here, huh? No, man. It's it's a Russia's going to pass a bill before we are. It's absolutely shocking how incompetent this group of people are can't get anything done. I think that that's one angle for sure. I think the other is just maybe they didn't handicap how many parties would feel deeply affected by any legislation or that like the banks and crypto industry would go to battle so hard. And I don't think they also I don't think anybody thought that the anti crypto army was going to have legs again personally like we thought they were dead, you know.

21:52So like you get the ethics clause and then you get stable coin yields and you have some pretty massive divided interests that have no like real reason to come together. Who did you have a comment? I saw your mic left and then you came up to the top. Yeah, Gary. I don't know how much time you have, but I was going to I got Charles Hoskinson had a event last night. I popped in because I like Charles. I think he's decent human being. And I was I did not realize the battle that was going on there. It caught down. And then you know also about, huh? You're in Vegas? No, no, no, I'm in there. I mean, I guess it. Okay. I thought maybe that was in Vegas. No, I didn't want to go that so. I mean, that's a waste time. Yeah, just for the record, it's Hodgkin's not Hodgkinsons. One is one is Austin. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, but it's also.

22:57Yeah, there's no Charles age. How's that? Cause I like the age. Go ahead. Yeah, continue age. But man, he's really like, you know, I heard a founder that's just pretty beaten up at this point. 40, 42 years old. And he was telling the community, hey, you know, you guys don't want me to leave this. Let me know and I'll move on. I got plenty of things to do, but I can't do a half cook job. I mean, for the first time, I heard an altcoin guy going, hey, this is fucking difficult, which I thought was really like, you know, the audience had to hear that. I can't imagine they didn't like hear it. I heard it. There's a key man. There's a key man. That's a Toshie. Well, it's going to be written all those. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's quite an interesting dynamic.

23:57And you got to believe that's present and more than just ADA, right? Probably present. These people have made a lot of money and they're putting up with a lot of bullshit. They're like, hey, why am I putting up with this bullshit? Right. I don't need this anyway. It's people saying, why have I lost 98% of my money complaining? And it's the person who lost 98% of their money saying, I don't have to put up with your post. It's all the money that you lost. So there's two sides to this, every one of these stories. And I think it's really, it's the problem with so much of what's wrong with crypto. You have founders who given themselves huge pre-mines. They, they made their money and even and the story is kind of long forgotten as to why it was hot in its day, Cardano being smart contracts with UTXO with proof of stake, like before everything else had proof of stake. And its story is just old and I don't know if it's salvageable or not. I don't, I don't pay a lot of interest. I mean, just to give the rounded picture of Charles Hodgkins.

25:04He did a time. Hodgkins, he did at one point claim that it elude that he was. Yeah. And thanks for being prepared and think me too. That's so. I just, you know, I'd be very careful about what's going on there too. I think he's of my experiences. He's a very smooth talker, a very calm talker, very convincing. But the track record of Cardano is one where a lot of stuff has been released and it hasn't really had a market uptake utility. It's price at one point pumped on the story of we do scientific research and white papers for everything and we have forks that you predictable intervals. But all of that doesn't really matter because it's not getting used for defying any meaningful sense by any, by anyone. And the founder who's still the in control of it is, as you say, sound tired and making vague threats to leave the project.

26:14Unless people treat them nicer. Well, welcome to the. I will say that he was on my show a couple months ago and he was very. Very convicted that the clarity act was a disaster that wasn't going to happen. So got that one right. It's seemingly or we'll see. But yeah, I mean, how can you not be just out of gas if you're like a founder of a 2017 to 2021 crypto project? I would imagine that when they started 17. I don't know when did Cardano launch later, I think. A later than that. Wow. Raising money for a long time before their launch, because they were one of these, you know, we need to raise money to do the research to do the white papers test test net. So if you're going to. That was the launch of the chain for that was the announcement. Looking officially launched its main net on September 27th, 2017.

27:15ICO took place between September 15 and January 16. I mean, 2017 is almost 10 years ago, you know, and this is non-specific to them or anything, but it doesn't seem that long because that's kind of when I got in 16, 17 and I still feel like I'm 20 years old. But this is this is really important. Exactly. They're all hitting their seven and 10 year term and like 10 years, you get really hard forward of the business, dude. It's like, especially if it's not growing, it's just so painful. And you've been in it, you know, so long, all the meetings are the same meetings, same problems over and over and over. And you're worth a shitload of money and you're like, hey, why am I doing this? And plus he had come in three or four years earlier than that with Ethereum, you know, growing that. So, you know, prior to that, he was in this as well.

28:16So he's definitely, definitely had a season, you know, and going through the trials for sure I grew that. Part of this drama is like infighting within the development organizations that build and operate Cardano as they're looking for grants, right? So this is just a more systemic problem throughout the industry as you have these, as we're talking about decade, nearly a decade old protocols that essentially in order to stay current in order to drive a deviation in order to try to get more traction. They're, they have a need for greater implementation, but to fund that implementation requires money and that requires more token distribution and that requires approval, especially if you have like a decentralized governance protocol. I mean, we saw last week that Ethereum Foundation sold, I don't know, like 10,000 ETH directly to Bitmine, the OTC.

29:20And this is kind of the dilemma that a lot of these projects are in in order to keep having same power. But I do think that like if you're at this late stage of the game and you still in our place where you're like battling to try to keep building. That's just a complete recipe for burnout and it's just tough. I mean, it's really tough out there for these legacy projects to continue. And I'm fighting gravity, right? And they're finding, they're writing gravity and the very structure that like enriched them in the first place. Like even if you have the greatest tech in the world, everybody already hates you because the tokens down and the incentives for misaligned. So what's really the upside like the token doubles and you lose 90% of your money. Right. I mean, the value doesn't necessarily even accrue to the token. So like structurally everything from that era is just some degree broken. I'm not saying they can't go back up or they can't perform, but you basically like are building against just a wall of like hatred and obstacles.

30:27Yeah, I can't disagree with you there. I mean, I think that's just compounded with the fact that we haven't had sustained movement in these assets because of the structural asymmetry for going on five years. Which is just toxified the sentiment for these builders to try to create and develop it. And it just continues to be increasingly difficult as that gravity over time creates just more, more downward pressure and just beats up everybody. I think this really helps people see that one of the major distinctions between Bitcoin and all of these other projects. Bitcoin does operate without a leader without a foundation. The incentive to secure it is the block rewards that leads to that has led to huge amounts of energy and the lots of public companies and private individuals securing the ongoing decentralized continuity of the antifree.

31:29It's not there's no one who can intervene and interfere with master keys. And that's what causes people to store tremendous amounts of value in it and then take have a lot of skin in the game and take and take a lot of care with what happens in big points so that like the forks that Scott mentioned earlier, get evaluated and dismissed really quickly. There's a lot of people pay extremely close attention to what's happening in Bitcoin that allegations of quantum quantum, cryptographically relevant quantum computers, so for that mouthful gets analyzed very, very thoroughly. False claims get pushed back on not by some funded entity, but by individuals with skin in the game and no other connection to one another. So you get this chaos, but this continuity that's unstoppable and people ensure that the promises that were made in the white paper continue to get capped because nobody can change the code and have lots of other people running.

32:31This is so different from everything else that we're talking about, right? There's nobody who can threaten to leave Bitcoin that would stop a Bitcoin. I mean, Michael Taylor could say I'm going to sell all my Bitcoin. In one giant whale move, it would be incredibly self destructive to him. So he's also, you know, he's got skin in the game to go the opposite direction. But aside from moving the price arena, nobody can stop Bitcoin and nobody can intervene in Bitcoin's operation on its promises, which creates this virtuous circle, which means that as people realize that they're like, I don't want anyone to stop me. I wouldn't be able to own what I own. Bitcoin seems to be the thing to do. They put some of their skin in the game. And now they're involved in the activity of understanding Bitcoin, securing Bitcoin, storing Bitcoin, ensuring that it keeps its promises, preventing the attackers from undermining its integrity. It's very different from all these other things, right? There's no Bitcoin foundation that sells 10,000 Bitcoin to Michael Taylor to keep the pump going of his stock. There's only Bitcoiners.

33:40Hey, just staying on Bitcoin, I want to go back to something that you and I think Gary said, because I am actually in Vegas for, you know, BTC Vegas. And I was just wondering why you guys think it's a, I don't know if you called it a joke, but what your views on it. Mark, so I'm just here just to tell you what consensus is not I could tell you what hearing not because of me. I'm going to consensus in Miami because it's closer and Vegas. I thought I was very disillusioned by Vegas last year, not specific to the conference itself, but. I think Bitcoiners have just flown had flown the group with treasury companies. And I was in there and disbelief just literally fighting with everyone I told talk to telling them what a bad idea everything they were telling you was. And luckily I've been vindicated on that. I think over the past year, but I think that there's, you know, like I walked in the door with Gary and like we were pitched like seven treasury companies. I mean, I got off the plane, right? So. And so I would say for media, I can just tell you why a it's just a big trip. I don't need to take.

34:44B I don't give a, I don't want to hear speeches from every politician and all the headliners are like trumps and government officials and such and kind of not what I came for. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but like I don't give a shit what Eric Trump has to say anymore ever period. Right. It'll be a consensus too. And I agree with everything. And I think there's a massive like and this is non like this is not my personal view, but like there's a lot of people who are disillusioned with the organization of Bitcoin conference, right? The Nakamoto ties and Bailey and all that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I'm saying that's not I hate saying that I think, you know, because it's not like I have a, but I think that those are the reasons that there's a lot of disillusionment. And I think, you know, consensus was like dead in Toronto last year. Now everybody's like, well, maybe I just want to go to Miami. I'm just having a lot of that, right? So I don't know. I wasn't going to do both.

35:46Yeah. I mean, that, that seems like a boon for Bitcoin conference and say we're the same week, right? Let me, let me bounce in here. Lou, I look. Scott and I know almost everybody in the industry. It's not like we need to go to have a meeting with somebody we don't know, right? The other thing is for me going to a trade show and being one of 50 meetings is not a good use of my time and energy. However, I will say because I don't want to just poo poo on the convention. If you're new to this industry and you're trying to make context, it is most certainly. Oh, yeah, awesome centralized location where you can everybody can meet together and do their deals. Even if you can't afford the big deal, like go to these parties for 20 bucks, dude, you will not need to eat all week. And it's really fun. It is really fun. I mean, you meet some awesome, awesome people and you get a sense of what's going on.

36:50And you know, like you see, you see all companies here and you're like, wow, what the hell are you doing here, man? Yeah, it is interesting watching the composition. Yeah, watching the composition of the attendees over the years is very interesting to that point, right? You like just retail the last year was like foods and politicians and whatever. And if I didn't go to the Bitcoin conference last year, I would have never had the experience of playing double down blackjack with Gary and John Deaton until three o'clock in the morning. This is the most degenerate gambling stupid dam in districts. No, the most degenerate is me and fondly. That is happening there. I don't know that story. That story. DGN to different level, bro. We were, we were. I walked up to his Asian table. It's the encore. It must have been two o'clock in the morning. And that on that trip. Oh, yeah, like right there on that trip. And I, I'm standing behind him. He notices me. He said, hey, sit down. I said, well, you sure, man, because I'm the only whitey here.

37:54So I started my joke with those guys is a race and it's joking. Anyway, they all leave. Fogs on first base. I'm on third base. It's just he and I. He looks at the, he looked. It's a $10,000 max table. We're playing for 30 minutes. And guys says, hey, can we double the max on the table? I'm like, bro, we're already playing 10,000. We're maxing our hands out every time like crazy people laughing our asses off thinking it's just so hilarious. We ended up walking back to the hotel at like five o'clock in the morning. It was a blast. I'm just with Gary. I miss the architect of STRC, buddy. Come on. I just wanted to make sure. Okay. Hey, I do not hold anyone's 2 a.m. degenerate gambling gambling against them in business affairs. I hold it. I give it as a credit. Separate the two. It was most fun. It was most certainly was fun.

38:57That's awesome. Well, guys, we hit time here for me because I needed to wrap the shows when Dave's not here at 11 to go prep for the next thing. So I appreciate the whole panel and everybody great insights. You gave me some good lines to steal, which is all I really come for now. So thank you. I appreciate that Richard. I'm going to tell everybody about your experience with the meme coin gala. So thank you for that. I really appreciate it. Just kidding. All right, guys. That's all we got. We'll see you Wednesday. Thanks.