Can ADHD Keep Us Happy? A Return Visit with Dr. Esme Fuller-Thompson

Professor Esme Fuller-Thomson is cross-appointed to the Faculties of Social Work, Medicine, and Nursing at the University of Toronto. She is also Director of the Institute for Life Course & Aging.  She has published more than 170 articles in peer-reviewed journals including the New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet, and Cancer. Her research examines ADHD and mental health, the association between early adversities and adult physical and health outcomes, and disparities in health. She has recently been focused on resilience and flourishing mental health.  Her work has widely cited in the media including the New York Times, Forbes, Wall Street Journal, Time Magazine and CNN. We're thrilled to welcome her back and hear about her latest research in our last episode of 2022. Thank you for joining us all year long! We hope you have a happy, healthy and safe holiday season, everyone. Enjoy! 

In this episode Peter and Professor Esme Fuller-Thomson discuss:  

01:20 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:15 - Intro and welcome back Dr. Esme Fuller-Thomson!

01:57 - Since our last visit HERE, she has completed some new research on Anxiety and ADHD

03:00 - Women with ADHD were 5x more prone to anxiety, compared to women without ADHD

04:20 - What is the percentage of researchers who study ADHD and Anxiety?

05:45 - On budget, finance and anxiety + ADHD

07:17 - Are you one of the people perhaps more at risk for anxiety? Ref: Research Aug. 31, 2021

08:00 - ADHD and finding moderation with controlled substances/impulse control

09:40 - And now for the new good news! 

11:00 - Ref: Corey Keys at Emory University and his three pillars of "Excellent Mental Health"

13:00 - More than 2 out of 5 are flourishing w/ excellent mental health; how do we get more of us here?

15:12 - On keeping perspective and not hyper-focusing on the bad stuff.

17:25 - A look at the factors in the study of those flourishing with ADHD

18:29 - 300 years ago, exercise was a mandatory part our daily life because we needed it to simply exist

19:40 - People who use spirituality to cope w/ their day to day troubles were much more likely to be in complete mental health.

20:43 - Point | Counterpoint on relationships and marriage

21:17 - Happiness and chronic pain

22:00 - Remember, just a few years ago it was still rare for Women to get an ADHD diagnosis

23:56 - What is CBT and can it be helpful? Ref: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy 

00:00 - How can people find more about you?  Just type in Fuller-Thompson + ADHD, HERE on Google Scholar, or via https://socialwork.utoronto.ca/profiles/esme-fuller-thomson/

25:00 - Thank you Esme!

25:18 - "Thank you Peter for what you do for the whole community of people with ADHD. We all appreciate it!!"

25:28 - The Faster Than Normal book is still being printed, and this is awesome, THANK YOU and I'm so happy it's helping!!!!  

26:07 - Happy Holidays!! 

Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Faster Than Normal is for YOU! We want to know what you'd like to hear! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We'd love to learn about, and from them. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at [email protected] or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

26:35 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits.

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat:

[00:00:40] Peter: High, high, high. Hope you're well. This will probably be last episode will be recorded before Christmas and the holiday break. I hope that you are all going somewhere warm or if. You are doing something that keeps you busy or maybe going somewhere cold if you live in a warm area right now, like to all my friends in Australia anyway, I'm not, I'm in New York City, it's 12 degrees or some crap like that. Um, I am getting outta here later in the week for about a week and, and gonna bury my head in the sand somewhere warm. So that's nice. Anyway, we have a g returning guest. We. Esme. Okay, I gotta stop you right here. Cause first of all, you understand I love this person. This person is one of the few people who's out there doing hardcore research on girls, women, and adhd. So I want to welcome back Esme Fuller Thompson, Dr. Esme Fuller Thompson. She's an incredible guest. We had her right, we think about God two or three years ago, I think it was pre pandemic. So it's wonderful to have you back as we welcome and you got tons of new stuff to talk about. 

[00:01:36] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Absolutely. And some of it is really positive because last time I came it was all about the negatives. And I still have some, I remember. Yeah. But I promised you that I had in the works, um, some research on flourishing among h adhd. So do you wanna start with the bad stuff or the good stuff? Which one? 

[00:01:52] Peter: Let's get the bad stuff outta the way. 

[00:01:54] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Okay, so, um, when I was with you, which I think was about two years ago, we were talking a lot about women with h ADHD which is dear to my heart. Um, I think it's a neglected population. People really haven't been looking at it, but we, we, in that time we talked about, um, depression and suicidality. But we didn't really know very much about anxiety. So I worked on a paper that came out, um, uh, almost a year ago on generalized anxiety disorder among A D H D and life. It, it's not too surprising that the rates are higher among people, um, with adhd cause life is anxiety producing because things are sometimes quite chaotic, right? So yes, indeed. Um, We found that people with A D H D had four times higher odds of anxiety disorders compared to their peers without

[00:02:52] Peter: Wow. Four times higher odds of anxiety disorders when you have ADHD. Wow. 

[00:02:57] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Yes. Yeah, so I mean, I was expecting maybe double, but. Four times and it's women. Insane. Were even worse. Women, women with a adhd were five times compared to women without h adhd. Now these are young, relatively young, like 20 to 39 year olds. And um, ooh, you know, that, that, that's hard. It's hard to, to manage. Uh, that doesn't mean that they actually have it necessarily at this moment, but they've had anxiety disorders. So some have overcome it, but, but it's, um, it's a significant barrier that, that a lot of people with a d h ADHD have to go through. And as I said, women have, um, a harder time with it even than men, even though women in general have higher anxiety., Women with ADHD proportionately are doing worse than women without ADHD compared to men with ADHD versus men without, so interesting. It's, it's, uh, it's a real issue and I think it's neglected. I don't think, I think the other behaviors, you know, the, the depression and substance abuse, those ones tend to get more attention, but anxiety can be crippling. And I think we need to think about it as, as clinicians and also as as people with A D H D and, and also people who love people with A D H D, that keeping an eye on that anxiety and thinking about interventions to help with it because there are some really good interventions. 

[00:04:18] Peter: I know for a lot of people who are getting help with A D H D and they're getting help, uh, you know, whether it's medication, whether it's, uh, D B T or whatever, you know, there are a lot of. What do you think the percentage of of psychologists or or therapists are that put together the link between ADHD and anxiety? 

[00:04:38] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Well, certainly I know with, um, some of my research on women and other people's research that women are much less likely to get the correct diagnosis and Right. So they might have, they, so sometimes they might be that anxiety or the depression or flagged and they haven't put it together that it's A D H D. If people are brought in young, uh, be maybe because of school related stuff for A D H D, they may not be screening for, um, depression or anxiety. So it's, I what I, my plug is if you have people presenting with anxiety and depression, think about A D H D. If you have, um, have patients or clients with a D H D think about depression and anxiety. Not that everybody has it, and we'll get the good news at the end. But it is more, much more likely to occur. And among those with, uh, among women are more vulnerable than men. But there's other things too. Um, low income is very anxiety producing, whether you have ADHD or not. 

[00:05:40] Peter: Wondering, and I completely, I mean that, that's a given. There's no question about that. 

[00:05:43] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Absolutely. But, People with A D H D may have harder time managing budgets and, and making sure that the money makes it all the way through to the end of the month. And so that, that's very anxiety producing. So now going from middle class to upper class, that doesn't make a huge difference. But being really close to the line and not having enough to make ends meet is desperately anxiety Produc. Yep. 

[00:06:11] Peter: I believe it. And what's interesting is that I think, you know, especially now in this sort of worldwide financial crisis we're in, you know, that certainly doesn't help. It's, it's tough enough when, when we're all doing moderately well,

[00:06:22] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Yes. Yeah. So, uh, I, now, my, I should have comment that my research is based on, uh, representative samples, but before the pandemic, right? So everybody got more anxious, more depressed, and more, you know, during the depress the, um, pandemic and being locked at home is. Great for people who like a lot of the stimulation and activities. So I'm guessing that these estimates are perhaps, um, underestimates of the magnitude of the problem in probably, yeah. The pandemic. So I, I, as I said, there'll be a while before we get that kind of information out, but it seems logical to think it's not getting better anyway. 

[00:07:06] Peter: Hmm. Unreal. Unreal. , but you said you had good news.

[00:07:11] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: All right, well let me just finish the other people at risk, cuz those are kind of Okay. More, more bad news. Let's go over that. More bad news. Okay. Um, so the, uh, people who had more close relationships were much less likely to have anxiety. So almost every study I've done in ADHD, social support, having a confidant, having, uh, a spouse on your side. All of those things are really, really protective. So, um, the idea of building and building a so social support network and reaching out to that network and investing in it really helps on all those fronts. Um, . And then the, uh, the other negative news in August in 2021, I published on substance use disorder. And we touched on this briefly, I think two years ago when we talked about it, but some people, uh, uh, we found that people with A D H D were much more likely to have had a substance use disorder at some point in their life. And we're looking at 20 to 39 year olds and. Almost half had a substance use disorder. I don't think that'll be too surprising to you having talked with so many of your guests, but Yeah, not at all. So the issue is, I mean, some people are able to consume in moderation, but people with A D H D are probably many of them. find Moderation a hard piece. It's kind of an all nothing piece. 

[00:08:35] Peter: People are able to, people with ADHD are some are able to consume with, what'd you say?

[00:08:39] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: With moderation? Say, oh, I'll just have a glass. But that's, 

[00:08:42] Peter: why are you, why are you making up words? I've never heard this word. Moderation. What is that? 

[00:08:48] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: So my point is that, um, among people with substance use issues and a D H D and impulse control issues, perhaps abstinence is a good strategy. Not, you know, some people can do it without the abstinence kind of piece, but, um, You know, it, it can get you into, if you have impulse control and drinking and drink, this is all types, uh, it's higher for everything, cannabis, uh, heavy drugs and alcohol. So, um, generally the. The idea is that, uh, A D H D makes it harder to manage, uh, substances in general and makes you more vulnerable to, um, addictions. So that makes perfect sense. Yeah, totally makes sense. So those are the bad news, but can I get to the good news? Can I share with you, 

[00:09:39] Peter: for God's sake? Yes.

[00:09:40] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: After all of this. Okay. So, So, uh, you know, I'm, I'm more than a quarter century into my career, and so I, I have spent the first 20 some years looking at negative things, depression, anxiety, um, uh, suicidality, and, you know, that's a bit of a Debbie Downer. When you go to parties and you say, oh, what do you do? I'm looking at depression, anxiety, thanks, geez. But, and then, but it's a little bit of. Whack-a-Mole Pro, uh, uh, problems, you know, that little kid's game where it's politics of course. Yeah. Very, uh, politically incorrect, where just spit poor moles on the head and yeah, one goes down and the other pops up. So, you know, here I am, I'm like, okay, I'm focusing on say A D H D and anxiety. And so, you know, you think about interventions and many really good interventions and maybe anxiety goes down, but depression pops up or maybe depression goes down and substance abuse pops up. So, um, I, I started thinking, well, I need to really look at it holistically. And if I said to you, how are you doing today? And you said, I'm not suicidal. Well, that's not really where we want you to be. We want you to be flourishing, right? So, um, I started looking around and there's an amazing researcher at Emory University called Corey Keys, and he came up with this concept. Excellent mental health. So when I ask you what does mental health mean to you? Not just it's, it's the absence of mental illness. Sure. But that's not really enough. Just not being suicidal or not being depressed. It's really more than that. So his idea has, Three pillars. The first one is, no mental illness in the past year. No substance dependence, no um, depression, no anxiety, no bipolar, and no serious suicidal thought. So that's a great place that's getting you to, that's pillar one is getting you to neutral, which is great. Um, and certainly if people are, are, are, have any of those issues, getting them out of that is, is your first plan as a clinician or as a family member. But then, then pillar two. How often in the last month have you been happy? And you have to say every day or almost every day. Like if you're just happy twice a week, it doesn't make it. And they also ask how, how often you are satisfied with your life and you have to be daily or almost daily. So you can see that one of you have to be at least one of these. So pillar two is happy or satisfied on an almost daily level. So no mental illness and you're happy and satisfied. And then pillar three is about psychological wellbeing and social wellbeing. I have warm and supportive relationships. Life is getting better for peace pull. Like me, I like most parts of my personality. And in the last month you have to agree to the majority of those six of the 11 questions. at least, uh, daily or almost daily. You have to agree to that. So this is really, really, really high, right? You're not mentally ill. You have no substance dependence, you have no suicidal thoughts. You're happy and or satisfied, and you have warm and you, you have great social or psych and or psychological wellbeing. Like, isn't this what we're hoping for? 

[00:12:54] Peter: Yeah, one would think, 

[00:12:56] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: all right, so among those with ADHD, this is a really, really high bar. More than two and five are flourishing, are absolutely flourishing, are hitting this incredibly high bar. 

[00:13:12] Peter: Interesting, interesting. That's more than two and okay. . I wouldn't, I would not have thought that , 

[00:13:20] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: neither would I. And in fact, when I talk to anybody else, they all say, oh no, it's gotta be 10% or something like that. But, and you know, some of the blame is to us who are researchers, cuz we've just focused on the negatives. Like I started the conversation with, but without looking at, well there are some people who are completely free of mental illness and are flourishing, and why don't we spend more time thinking about who those people are and how they got there and how can we help more people get to that point. 

[00:13:51] Peter: Really, really interesting thoughts. I, you know, it's interesting. I think that a lot of, and I mean, look, I, I'm not the doctor you are, but I think there's, I wonder if a part of the reason that people with A D H D tend to find themselves in positive spaces more often is because, , we're very, very good at changing the subject. In other words, we're in a bad mood for as long as that bad mood can hold our attention. . 

[00:14:16] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Okay, well, so fine. But, but at least, at least, uh, almost daily in the past month, uh, past week, months, uh, you have to have been happy. So you're saying the, it's the, uh,

[00:14:28] Peter: well, cause you have, you have to be happy 24 7. I mean, no one's happy.

No, no, 

[00:14:32] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: no, no. You have, just have to have happy. Right. Yeah. Or you have, you have happy moments. Oh, well then, now I have to admit that people with a d, ADHD have a much lower rate than people without H adhd. But I, my, what I was focusing on, and I think, I think partly as we said, because we do all this negative research about all the negatives, people feel that they are, they don't have in front of them our potential to flourish. That they, you know, that, that that is not a trajectory for them. And I'm saying, wow, many, many, many people are getting to that incredibly high level of functioning and just, you know, life is good. 

[00:15:12] Peter: Yeah. It's really, you know, it's fascinating. I think that that, you know, we spend a lot of time complaining. Oh, this is this and this. I mean, we got on the phone today, Peter, how you been? Oh my God, these last six months. You know, but, but in retrospect it's not bad. It's, there's day-to-day annoyances in the minutiae, but. , I'm here. I have my health. I'm, I'm, I'm my kid's doing well, you know, all those kinda things. I'm happy and, and I think that I at least look. Again, I'm, I'm looking at a sample of, of one or maybe two here, but I think that A D H D helps you stay happy because there's constantly something exciting. Something shiny just over the next hill. I know it sounds ridiculous.

[00:15:59] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: No, but life is, I mean, let's be honest, it's fun to hang around with people with adhd, life, Ising. Right? 

[00:16:06] Peter: Well, it's fun to hang around with people with adhd as long as those people with ADHD are on the right path or understand their path. I think that that there have been times when I've hung out with people who were probably undiagnosed adhd. You know, I take, I, I, I turn my head for a second. I look back and everyone's railing fat lines of cocaine. So I think that ADHD does have some negatives there in terms of the fun of hanging out with them. But yes, I mean, you know, my, my girlfriend tells me constantly that the reason, one of the reasons she, she, she loves hanging out is she never knows what's gonna happen next. You know, we're, we're sitting in a cafe one day and the next day we're flying somewhere because I read an article about a waterpark or whatever. So I think. You know, you have to, you have to sort of know yourself, but yes, I totally get that. 

[00:16:53] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Mm-hmm. , so, so again, this was based on a sample, a representative sample of Canadians prior to the pandemic. So I'm pretty confident that the way that data was gathered, it's a really solid national study. So I'm, I'm, I'm confident with those numbers. But I wanted to talk a little bit about what was a hindrance or a help. Apparently I looked at what, what we call the factors associated with A D H D. So what are the characteristics of those, sorry, factors associated with flourishing among those with A D H D. Okay. And so, alright, right, let's just talk about it.

Physical activity. I know this is one of your things. If you were pH physically active, they were four times more likely to be in the state of flourishing four times. 

[00:17:40] Peter: I'm sorry that that's just a, that's just duh. Of course you, you, you, you box for an hour. You go for a run, you're chock full of do you're high as a kite. Of course you're gonna be happier and at the very least you're gonna be happier. Cause, cause it's over, You did it, 

[00:17:54] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: but our, our lifestyle is not conducive to exercise. It's an effort. It's an organi. You have to be organized, you have to get out, you have to do exercise. The, the way you know modern life is it's easier to sit on your couch and it's hard to get that momentum to get up and out, but, Boy, oh boy. Four times the odds. This is, this is a winner. do not pass Go without exercise. Right. 

[00:18:21] Peter: Well, you know what's interesting and that brings up a whole nother series of, of questions. One of the reasons that A D H D you might argue, and again, uh, this could be an argument. One of the reasons a d ADHD has flourished in the past a hundred years, um, is because 300 years ago, 400 years ago, exercise was part of our daily life because we needed to exist. Right. We exercised cause we'd exercise, we wouldn't catch. The, the, the, the, the, the Saber tooth tiger and have dinner. Right? And then we discovered farming, and then we realized we didn't have to walk so much. So the the premise of, you know, having all your food delivered by a messenger, by a, by a, by a GrubHub, um, that's a relatively new concept for our brains. Our brains are, are very, very slow creatures. So that, that's a very, very big part of it. You know, I would be willing to argue that that ADHD or, you know, People were probably a bit happier back then because they had to exercise, they had to work out, or they didn't exist. 

[00:19:09] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Yeah, absolutely. So now it's an effort you have to put . Structured in your day that you're gonna get to exercise. But this is, you know, I almost never see odds this high, like do this four times. You know, usually something improves it maybe 20%. If you're really, really lucky, it doubles it. But four times. Wow. This is a keeper for sure. You know? Now. Um, the other thing that was really interesting, and I haven't done much research on it, but um, I'd love to do more people who use spirituality to cope with their day to day troubles. Were much more likely to be in complete mental health. 

[00:19:51] Peter: Say it. Say that again, slower. 

[00:19:53] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: So, people who use spirituality or religion, so it may be an organized religion, or it might be spirituality as well. Okay. And if it was very protective. So people who use spirituality were much more likely to be in this happy sat life, satisfied, mentally healthy space.

[00:20:10] Peter: Okay. I believe that if you think there's something bigger than you, regardless of what it is, 

[00:20:15] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: all right, now, the and. And also that you have something to turn to, right? So that you have some right, and it, it's concenter as well. I mean, I don't know exactly why. I just know when you had do these sort of survey research, you don't know the reasons, you just know the association. So, but, um, being married is very protective and I think that's getting back to the confidant, having people on your side, um, and possibly to stabilize you too . 

[00:20:43] Peter: Well, and you know.. There, there are, there, there are outliers of all different studies. Yes. Some not as, some, not as accurate as others, but No, I hear what you're saying. Um, I don't, I don't fit into that. But, um, I would, I would argue the caveat of with the right person., 

[00:20:59] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: right? I would definitely, um, and also, and I mean, being married or being in a, in a committed relationship kind of thing is helpful. Um, if it's, if you're right, if it's with the right person. And the thing is, when you do rep representative samples, usually the ones who aren't with the right person may no longer be with them. So I you don't see them in your analysis. Right. Um, now, Not, again, this is another no-brainer, but people who were in chronic pain were less likely to be in complete mental health. Now that seems completely obvious, but I was surprised how many people, these are relatively young people with ADHD are in chronic pain, perhaps because it risk taking behaviors or i, I don't know why, but, um, that's worth getting treated. You know, you've got your mental health stuff going on, but there's, if there's physical pain, Life is really hard and it's hard to be happy with it. Right. Um, and, uh, again, my poor women with h d they're less likely to be flourishing than men with h d, which is in keeping with all the, the higher prevalence of the negative things that we talked about earlier. Right. Um, so they're less likely to be all, um, completely flourishing. , you know, still many women were, but it's just, um, women with ADHD seem to be struggling more. Um, but there's a couple reasons for that. It's because, so remember I, this study was done almost 10 years ago, so women with a d d were not diagnosed very often. So I have a feeling that the women in my study who were diagnosed with adhd, they were probably fairly far along the spectrum with ADHD to actually get the diagnosis. So they may be. They may be, um, worse off than the av the average woman who would be worse off than the average man just because the people with milder symptoms would, uh, women can often, uh, mask the symptoms better than men because, especially girls, and so they were less likely to be diagnosed. So I have a feeling the women that we have, We're, we're pretty far along, and maybe that's why they're doing poorly. But it may be, it's just there may be less acceptance for women with ADHD related symptoms in society too. Um, we're still working on why women are vulnerable and trying to get a picture of that. But, uh, when more and more women are getting, um, diagnosed, I think there'll be, um, There'll be more understanding and more interventions. And then the other thing I just wanted to talk about, and I, I plugged this ev every time I talk to, uh, uh, you know, people with, uh, ADHD and any mental health CRI crisis. So even though though two 42% were doing really well that means that, you know, a little bit more than half had at least one of these other problems that that wasn't flourishing to the extent that they would like to, or we would all like them to. So, um, I just wanted to suggest that cognitive behavioral therapy, it's also called CBT is relatively short, relatively in inexpensive. It's a, it's a form of talk therapy. You can have it in a group session, eight weeks to 16 weeks, and it's been shown with people with A D H D and people with depression and people with anxiety and people with substance dependence. It's really, really helpful and what it does is it helps you capture your dysfunctional thoughts. So if you're telling yourself negative messages, which you may have heard in childhood, oh, you can't do this. You know, you're never gonna achieve. You tell yourself these types of messages many times an hour, that is gonna pull your, your mood down, your ability to function. So it helps you grab these thoughts and look at them objectively and reevaluate. And it can, it's, it really is kind of almost like you're reprogramming your own brain with more positive messaging, and that is helpful for, for almost every negative mental health outcome and certainly promotes better mental health. 

[00:25:02] Peter: No question about it. What a phenomenal interview. We're well passed our time but that was totally worth it. Thank you, Esme it's wonderful to have you back. As always,

[00:25:11] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: my pleasure. 

[00:25:11] Peter: You're welcome here anytime you want. Really, really good stuff. Thank you again for taking the time. It's, it's great to talk to you again

[00:25:18] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: And thank you Peter for what you do for the whole community of people with ADHD. We all appreciate it. 

[00:25:24] Peter: That means a lot. Thank you. Okay guys. Fast than normal is for you. And I got some good news actually. So it turns out that Faster Than Normal, the book, which most of you know about and have read and probably brought you here, um, is still printing. It's, it's gone into like it's fourth or something, printing, and I've written five books and all five books I've gotten advances on, right? Uh, progressively more and more money. And then this Faster Than Normal I get a really nice advance and I thought, wow, there's a really nice advance. There's no way I'll ever make it back because I've never made an advance back in any of my previous. I beat my advance for Faster Than Normal. So, so finally, like five years later, I am actually earning royalties and, and I owe that to everyone who has ever listened to everyone who has ever bought a copy of Fast Than Normal. Thank you. It means the world to me. 

We will see you again next week. We actually probably won't because next week is a holiday. We're probably gonna take a couple weeks off and we'll be back in the new year. We have, uh, sponsors coming up. We have new sponsors for the for the podcast. Lot of cool stuff. New guests, amazing guests, amazing repeat guests like Esme. Lots of people coming on the podcast, so, so stay tuned. As always, Faster Than Normal is for you. A D H D. All sorts of neurodiversity can be gifts as long as you know how to use them. Have a safe and wonderful holiday guys. We will see you soon.

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you in January- Happy Holidays!!