Canada’s ‘pivot’ away from U.S. easier said than done

0:00Canada is complicated. And help Berda? Well, it has opinions. I'm Kathleen Betty, the host of West of Center. If you're wondering about separation or the many ways Alberta marches to its own drum, our show will help you understand what's going on out West. Tune in for a no-nonsense conversation about the politics that drive this place. Find and follow West of Center wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Nielko Exhal. Good evening. I'm Chris Houdon. This is as it happens. Tonight. On defense in the midst of a fierce trade war, Ottawa wants to reduce its reliance on the U.S., but a former Canadian defense minister says pivoting away from American military hardware is a challenge the government hasn't quite figured out.

1:00Settling for less, a former UN special report who appraises Canada for joining a ban on imports from Israeli settlements, but he says that move is just a start. A powerhouse on a powerhouse. Soon deliberations will begin over designs for a revitalized Prime Minister's residence. The head of the jury, celebrated architect Mocha Safdi, tells us what the future could hold for 24 Sussex. Three Wolley. It was in the Smithsonian for more than 150 years, but now the last known pout of an extinct Wolley dog has finally been returned temporarily to Vancouver in its former Pacific habitat. He put the pie in pyrotechnics, remembering self-described anarcho-confectioner Noel Gozane, the prankster who insured the rich and famous Scott there just deserts right in the face. And their sincere corn congratulations. Inter, if you dare, the corn maze of one new Brunswick farm, which this year celebrates the corn-sistant, corn-tributions of PWHL-Great Marie-Philippe Poulin by being in the shape of

2:03her face. As it happens, the Tuesday edition radio that's always looking at the broader corn text. Mark Carney says the country must pivot away from the United States, even though that will come at a cost. Today, Canada's retaliatory tariffs on billions of dollars of US goods have taken effect, and the Prime Minister is standing firm on the decision to walk away from the negotiations without a deal. The most fundamental issue is that the cumulative US demands revealed that they wanted us to become even more reliant on them, not less. In too many areas, they wanted dependency, not a true economic partnership. In the spring of last year, I warned that America is trying to break us so they can own us.

3:05And I promise that that will never, ever happen. Mark Carney speaking in a video released by the Prime Minister's office today. But even as the government says it's moving away from its reliance on our southern neighbor, the numbers suggest it might not be that easy. A recent report by the Hill Times found that the US remains the top foreign supplier to Canada. And revealed that so far this year, the federal government has spent nearly $253 million on contracts with American suppliers. And as the Canadian government ramps up its investment in the military, US defense contracts make up the bulk of that spending. Peter McKay served as Canada's Minister of Defense under Stephen Harper. We reached him in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia. Peter McKay, how do you think Canada's government can reconcile the buy Canada mantra with the fact the reality, as our listeners heard, the Hill Times are pouring, that so much of Canada's defense procurement spending is still going to companies in the US? Well, it's hard to reconcile as the short answer, Neil.

4:06It's going to take time. It's going to take a much greater effort to increase Canadian defense manufacturing capacity. And it is subject to change, I guess, because I think much of the current strife and strain that we are experiencing Canada is subject to the geopolitical winds that are blowing, certainly coming at us from the United States, but elsewhere. And historically, I need to point out that defense policy and economic policy have, for much of our history, operated in very separate conversations. Now we are seeing a much different approach, possibly a better approach, and in large part driven by the Canadian public who seem to have accepted very much the need of increased defense spending. And we've seen it before in various times. The Secretary of State for Defense Procurement Stephen Führer was on our show back in February, after the government released its new defense strategy, focusing on more military equipment

5:09being built here in Canada and more defense contracts being awarded to Canadian firms. Here's what he said then about why he thinks that that strategy can meet the military's needs. I mean, we can build world-class ships and we do, and we're buying them from ourselves. You know, global 5,500, and it's class, it's one of the best airplanes you can get your hands on. So, where things are super obvious, we're just going to get on with it. Where we can't do that in a regional amount of time here in Canada, we'll partner with other nations. Is that the kind of strategy, a winning strategy from where you sit and knowing what you know, could it get Canada to a place where it does not rely on US military contracts? It could, but it'll take a very, very long time on talking decades. And I like the minister, I respectfully disagree, though, that the strategy that was announced in terms of Phi Bill partner thus far has been predominantly by.

6:12And by that, I mean the submarine contract, which is gone to Germany, the global I Arctic surveillance contract, which went to Sweden. Yes, there will be and silvery benefits to Canada, but these are projects that are mostly being built, supplied, and the labor is going to be outside of Canada. And by the way, those those contracts, those projects are not solidified as of yet. They're beyond the MOU stage, but they're not locked in. And the benefits, whatever they may be, and their minuscule compared to the entire billions of dollars that will be spent on the contract, are not going to come to Canada for a long, long time. So it's a great, you know, talking point, and it's a wonderful strategy in the face of an impending trade war that has escalated, trade conflict, but it is not going to really land or impact the Canadian economy for a very, very long time.

7:15What would you do differently? Well, I think it back to the bargaining table, which is your answer. Not overly depend on big, big contracts like this that really I think in the longer term are not going to achieve the intended result. I say that reluctantly, settle on some of the contracts that are already underway in terms of increasing Canadian content. National Shipbuilding Procurement was mentioned by the minister. That contract, of course, predates this government by more than a decade. It goes back to the Harper area, and this is not a partisan comment. It's fact-not-feelings. And so, you know, I'm just pointing out some of the realities about building Canadian industry in the different space. There's of course the F-35 jets procurement from Lockheed Martin. The deal was signed in 2023. The procurement has been under review for more than a year now. I mean, the government's not

8:18going to walk away from that. That contract began and earnest in the late 90s, and has gone through several iterations. Political machinations, quite frankly, much like we saw with the Seeking Replacement Contractor, what has really been, what has hindered Canada buying a fifth generation fighter jet. And now, once again, we see for political reasons this hedging of bets where we're talking about buying two fleets. And by the way, there's other considerations, including defending the airspace over Canada and North America, which is the primary consideration, not to mention getting the best plane that will ensure mission success and young Canadian pilots coming home safe to their families. So politics has, in my view, for far too long, very much plagued military procurement, as has been a cross-threaded bureaucracy is how I describe it.

9:19And just finally, Peter, I wonder, you know, if, if when relations with the United States improve, there's a change in decision-making, change in leadership, do you think that things will snap back to the way we were, or have we come to a point where that diversification has to has to stay and grow? Well, practically speaking, I think it won't go back, or snap back to your words. There's also the, you know, the harm that has been done reputationally here at home. I was thinking a lot about this as we prepare to commemorate 9-11. And what would Canada do in the face of a horrible, I mean, is a terrible thing to even contemplate, but if we had an incident similar to that. And my thought is the Canadian character would say, of course, we're going to help America, as before. We're going to do everything and more that we can to support them in a time of need. I'm not sure in the current climate that that could be reciprocated on the other side of the

10:22border, and I hope I'm wrong in that assessment. But I will say that military to military, the leadership there, the security apparatus, our joint membership and NORAD, of course, NATO, fly lies, that institutional cooperation and common cause remains very strong. And if there's anything that's a high point in all of this, it's that reality. Peter McKay, I appreciate this. Thank you. It's my pleasure. Thank you, Neil. Peter McKay is Canada's former Minister of Defense. We reached him in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia. If you're hoping to pitch a design for the revitalization of 24 Sussex, you better get to work. You have just two weeks to submit your qualifications to be considered for the short list of architects, hoping to bring the long and neglected currently unlivable Prime Minister's residents in Ottawa back to life. To get on that short list,

11:25you will need to impress Mocha Safty, the Canadian architect who designed Habitat at Expo 67 in his 20s, the National Gallery of Canada in the 1980s, and in more recent years, redefined the Singapore skyline. Mr. Safty was personally recruited by Prime Minister Karney to serve as the head of the jury evaluating 24 Sussex proposals. We reached him today at his offices in Boston, Massachusetts. Mocha Safty, this is a complex assignment. Certainly 24 Sussex, you know, we're talking about a family home, a diplomatic destination, and also a symbol of an entire nation. What are you hoping to see in the proposals that you get? Well, I think above all this being an extraordinary site with wonderful views and very strategically located an opportunity to create a building that contributes to Canadian identity, to our sense of national pride. You've toured 24 Sussex in its current

12:30form. From what you've seen, is it worth saving the bones of it? Well, it's very important to clarify that this is not being defined as a restoration. The building is there, it's gutted, it has debatable architectural quality. On the other hand, it has tremendous sentimental value. The assignment is to accommodate the spaces needed, which is the ceremonial parts, and the residential parts, not unlike the White House, for example. And the combined space needed cannot be accommodated in the shell of the existing building. How much of the existing building is preserved is left open to the competitors. There are some thought that perhaps the entry elevations with the doorway where press conferences occurred in the past might be an element to preserve, as part of

13:35the memory of that building. But it's an open question that's left to the competitors to consider. So it sounds like you're saying definitely a new building of some sort and maybe multiple buildings. Am I hearing you correctly? It could be a building, it could be multiple connected buildings. What I'm emphasizing is that it's not something that could be stuffed into the existing shell of 24 Sussex. Whatever components of 24 Sussex existing building is to the consideration of the competitors. Also in the time we're living in certainly Canadians right across the country are dealing with affordability issues, specifically a housing affordability crisis. The Prime Minister in the video he posted just this morning warned this trade war with the United States could mean things get tough for everyone. So he's signaling that already. We know the project is going to rely on donations, private donations, but is that a

14:36consideration that the jury will look at? How much all of this is going to cost in the end? I think that the submissions being designed build would be made with the estimated cost of construction. And so we will certainly be aware and consider the cost being proposed with different proposals. That does not mean that we will pick the lowest price. This is a building for generations to come. And so quality of construction, quality of design are the leading components in consideration, but cost is a factor and we would have to consider it carefully. There is a $50 million fund raising goal. If I if I'm not mistaken and people have donated since late July more than $700,000 dollars so far. There is a long way to go. Do you imagine? I mean the debates as you try to come to a decision once the proposals come in. Do you think it's going to get heated? I think that if we

15:38are lucky and fortunate enough to have a design that's compelling and that at least it's public support that the funds would be raised enthusiastically, but it will take I think the present, the presentation of a compelling design would be an essential component of having successful fund raising. For you personally having done the work you've done, is there any part of you that wishes you were submitting your own proposal instead of heading up the jury? Well my reaction when the Prime Minister probably was, oh I'd love to do that, that a better use of my time might be actually to help select the best you. There's a lot that some people will be very excited about this, others will be worried. Some might be not thinking about it so far as much as you and your colleagues are or as we are, but there's also a lot of risks with it. Is this in this moment that we're in when the Prime Minister

16:39is talking about Canadians to think big and also redefine our place in the world, nation building projects, that sort of thing, is this project at 24 Cessix, Cessix, something of a metaphor or a test case for that goal? I think that the times are right for realizing the project. I think what's happening in the last few months or the last couple of years are making us think about our place as a nation. So I think the timing is appropriate. I remember the discussions when Prime Minister Pierre Tudot announced the two museums, civilization and the national gallery, and everybody said there's risks in this and that. Today we know that they were very significant contributions to auto-warn to the capital. You're very experienced, you've seen and done a lot. Does something like this make you nervous? Making this decision? No, I think when if something great and good is put forward that

17:44we will recognize it quite easily. Moshe Safdi, thank you for that. Thank you very much. We reached architect Moshe Safdi in Boston. What do blue rodeo, tarry fox and marifili pula have in common? Yes, they're all Canadian legends, of course, but significantly they're Canadian legends who have had corn mazes created in their honor. Every fall the hunter brothers farm in New Brunswick picks something or someone to commemorate with a six acre corn maze. And this year visitors will get lost inside the likeness of hockey star and Montreal Victoria captain Marie Philippe Poulain and the Montreal Victoria logo. Shelley Hunter came up with the idea we reached her in Florenceville Bristol, New Brunswick. Shelley, a logo is one thing, but to try and recreate someone's face in this medium, is it intimidating? Well, it's not

18:47really intimidating for me, but you'd have to ask our graphic designer. He's had to do a few faces. Two years ago when he did Gardner McDougal, a coach of UND Reds, it was spitting image. Last year, he had Jim Cuddy from the blue rodeo and it went well. So we throw him out the challenge of, you know, can you do Marie Philippe Poulain now? And your daughter certainly weighed in. She's a fan. She had some notes, right? She's a inner girl. Yeah, she's an inner girl friend or a big fan. So I kind of come up with the idea of what we wanted on it. And initially, I was thinking of the Walter Cup, but it's really hard to reproduce that trophy too dimensionally. So we decided to go with Marie Philippe Poulain. And again, always sending the design drafts to my daughter for a feedback. And the first design actually didn't have her face because he was, maybe he was chickening out

19:50or something. He just had her name and number. And we said, no, we really want her image. And so he did her image. And my daughter, instantly, is like, the hair is off. She doesn't wear a button like that anymore. Her eyes look like cartoons. But you know, everything else was fine. So he's very good. And he tweaked it till we got the image that we have today. So yeah. And I was just looking at it. It described it before I listened. It's remarkable. Yeah. So at the top, it has a PWHL logo. And then it has the word champions on. And I tried to use the font from the Victoria. I found it on a website somewhere. And then it's really up again to the graphic designer to make it work. I have the easy, you know, the easy job of just, this is what I want. You make it happen. And anyhow, so and then we wanted the year 2026. And then Marie Philippe's image on the right hand side.

20:50And then the big, big twire logo on the left hand side. He's got to worry about all the past that connect these ideas. I don't. I just say, you know, this is a text and images I want. And then he's got to join them with past. So you're the visionary. Was this decision made, you know, as you decide to who you're going to do or what you're going to cover in the maze. Did you decide this after they won the Walter Cup? Well, it was quite quite a few weeks after then won the Walter Cup because we are also Montreal Canadian fans. So if you look at what was happening, yes, we talked about it on the show. Championship, the championship, you know, May 14th, really tight games, winning an overtime for Ottawa. So we were, although we were happy with the big twire, when we were in the midst of the losses from the Canadian. So we were kind of down in the dumps after. And a girlfriend and Ottawa said, why don't you do the big twire? Because, you know, she knows we're hockey fans. And I thought,

21:53yes, absolutely, we'll do the big twire. So it just made perfect sense. So start to finish idea to execution, to a maze ready to accept visitors. How long is that an old process? And is it the same every year or does it depend on the art? It's probably pretty close to the same every year. So once we decided the big twire and I kind of had the initial, this is what I want on it and start communicating with the graphic artist. It's just shy of a month from initial idea to final design. And then that design goes to our survey engineer and he has a couple of weeks to get the GPS coordinates basically making a giant connect the dots with GPS coordinates. And then once that's done, they physically come to the field, which has already been planted by Chip and Not Tom Hunter. But the corn's only a couple inches tall at that point. And they spray paint using the GPS coordinates that design onto the land. And then my brother-in-law has the arduous task of

22:58going in and removing the corn that make up the pathways and design. And that takes several weeks. Now that we have drone technology, it's made much easier. Take the drone up. Let's see what's, you know, if there's weeds or the crows were eating a lot of the seed this year. So he had to go and replant certain sections with corn. So the decad get the plants growing and then obviously corn that needs to be removed or weeds. Murray Phillips image had a lot of weeds on her forehead, a little green acne there. That would not do. Yeah. How to get rid of that. If she would expect nothing less, excellence only. Are you excited? I mean, I wonder if you've been doing this for so long. Is it still exciting to see people show up? It's exciting. It's exciting. We're very excited because we know PWHL fans are fanatics and they will go anywhere for games and what have you. So we're very fingers crossed. Hopefully we get a lot of not only Victoria fans,

24:02but just fans of women hockey coming to see the maze. Just a seven hour drive from Montreal, four and a half from Quebec City, six hours from Halifax. So weekend. We did reach out to to Mary Phillip Poulan's team. We have not yet heard back. Are you hoping? They're in the zone. We're hoping. We're hoping. I know she's recovering and where else would you want to recover and then outdoor in the fresh air? In Florenceville, we're still new bronze wick. I'm so glad we could chat, Shelley. Thank you for this. No problem, Neil. Nice talking to you. Shelley Hunter works at Hunter Brothers Farm. We reached her in Florenceville, Bristol, New Brunswick. Police and security guards in Belgium were caught flat-footed today by a cowardly sneak attack on one of the world's wealthiest men. The target was Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates arriving for

25:05meeting with community leaders. Watch what happens when a team of Hitmen meet him first with a pie in the face. From 1998, an indignant Dan Rather reporting with extreme seriousness on an extremely unseurious incident, the Pying of Bill Gates, a non-rudel act by the un-synastor international Petisserie brigade led by a not particularly nefarious figure. Belgian prankster and anarcho-confectioner Noel Gaudin, who has pied his last, Mr. Gaudin died last month at the age of 80. For more than 50 years, he cooked up slapstick attacks on public figures. He did not cook up the pies themselves. He once told the observer, quote, we only use the finest Petisserie ordered at the last minute from small local bakers. Quality is everything. If things go wrong, we eat them. Unquote. His targets were famous, rich, and or in his estimation, pompous. They included author Margaret Durat, director Jean-Luc

26:09Gaudin, former French president Nicolas Sarkozy, and self-styled public intellectual Bernat Henri Levy, who once described himself as the most gifted writer of my generation. The first time Noel Gaudin pied him because he was pretentious. Then he pied Mr. Levy several more times because he had reacted so patchalantly to getting pied. That was one of eight times Noel Gaudin, his colleagues, slapped a pie on Bernat's Henri Levy's head in public. You heard Mr. Gaudin yelling, gloup-gloup. That's the rally and cry of the international Petisserie brigade. He said what he did was, quote, a burlesque form of pacifism and aggressive pacifism, obviously, but we only bruise our victims' egos, unquote, which, despite Dan Rathers' withering description, is certainly a kind of heroism.

27:11And if you haven't bid farewell to Mr. Gaudin, now is the time to say your good pies. We're going to take a short break now. When we return, we'll take a closer look at the ban imposed by Canada, the UK and France, on all imports from Israeli settlements. A former UN official tells us whether he believes that joint measure actually measures up. And they really made the fur fly, or maybe it arrived by truck. I'll check that. But what's important is that the rare pelt of an extinct woolly dog, a one-time mainstay of First Nations in the Pacific region, has finally been returned to the land at once roamed. Stay tuned, I'm Chris Houten. And I'm Ylko Ksul.

28:17The nation is watching Alberta and we know it. I'm Kathleen Petty, host of West of Center. Every week I speak with the people shaping Alberta politics from pipelines to separation, to help you understand what's going on here and why it matters to the entire country. Pull up a chair and join me, West of Center. Find us and follow wherever you get your podcasts. Today, Canada, France and Britain had some of their harshest words yet for Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank. And the three countries announced their intention to ban imports from the illegal settlements. In a joint statement, Prime Minister Mark Carney reiterated his support for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, writing that settlement expansion and settler violence quote pose a direct and urgent threat to that vision for peace, unquote. And UK foreign secretary Ed Miliband went a step further, rising in the British House of Commons to condemn settlers

29:18to the actions. The British government agrees that there is ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in areas of the West Bank, perpetrated by settler terrorists. And all too often, the Israeli government has turned a blind eye to this and worse members of it have made statements and taken actions to support the forced displacement of Palestinians. Now Madam Deputy Speaker, I recognise the gravity of saying this, but the truth is it is the least the people who face such suffering deserve. It should be the prelude to justice. Now for a long time, the British government has rightly said settlements are illegal, but we have remained silent on the question of the legality of the occupation as a whole. Today I announce that the official view of the British government is that the occupation is unlawful. That's British Foreign Secretary Ed Miliband. In addition to promising a ban on goods imported from settlements, today's joint statement also announced unspecified measures against those who quote, facilitate them or profit from them. Unquote, Michael Link is an associate professor at Western University and a former United Nations

30:23special rapporteur for the human rights situation in the Palestinian territories. We reached him in London, Ontario. Michael Link, did you ever think you would hear the British Foreign Secretary say those words to say ethnic cleansing? Or to say that the occupation is illegal. No, I didn't. I had obviously hopes every time I hear a Western government talk about its commitment to international law. I was hoping that there would follow that they would say the settlements are illegal. In fact, there are war crime and that the occupation itself is illegal because that's been declared by the international court of justice. But it all comes true today with Edward Miliband's statement. And I'm hoping that's a turning of the corner for countries in Europe and North America. Why do you think these countries are doing this now, Michael? I think two things that are related to each other. One is the creasing degrees of settler violence against Palestinians living in the occupied West Bank. But second as well, the very

31:27clearly stated goal of the Israeli government that they're building settlements in order to forestall any hope of a Palestinian state. But will it make a difference? Could it make a difference when we're talking about the expansion of settlements, the violence we've seen over and over again and certainly recently and we've covered all of that on our show in the past or is this symbolic at this point? Not insignificant perhaps, but can it actually stop what's happening? Well, there's a good argument made that this is too little too late. Let's keep in mind that in 1993 when the Oslo agreements were signed on the White House law, there are approximately 270,000 Israeli settlers in the occupied Palestinian territory. In 2014, there were around 550,000 settlers in Easter Island in the West Bank. Today, as Foreign Secretary Miliband acknowledged, there are around 770,000 Israeli settlers living in Easter Island in the West Bank. That means over the last 10 or

32:29so years, there's been an addition of about 20,000 more settlers every year into the West Bank. And it's hard to see how a Palestinian state is going to emerge from Easter, Islam, and the West Bank, let alone Gaza. That's going to be secure, contiguous, and economically prosperous and yet try to remove all of those settlers. When you look at the at the language in the joint statement, the France and Canada have signed on to it as well, alongside the UK. When you look at that language, what do you make of it? What else would you like to see specifically from Canada here? I'd like to see a much more with respect to what they're going to be doing. We allow millions of dollars every year to go from individuals, from corporations, and from charities to Israel, some of which winds up in the West Bank. We allow property exposed to be held in Canada, where they promote the sale of West Bank settlement housing to Canadians. We give charitable tax breaks for money going

33:35to the settlements. We provide the tear-free import of goods and services coming from the West Bank settlements, which gives these settlements some of their financial oxygen that allows them to thrive and to grow. All of this, I think, is illegal not only under international law, but also illegal under Canadian law. We passed legislation in the 1980s and again in 2000, which said that these ready settlements are war crimes under international law, yet Canada until now has never taken any steps to actually put that into action to stop all relations with these really settlements and to allow the possibility of a Palestinian state to want to emerge. Israeli officials, including the president, are condemning what these countries are saying and doing Israel's ambassador to Canada, Yidou Moed, has said in his statement, in part, quote, every move of this nature only serves to push intervening nations out of any meaningful regional

34:36influence, unquote, and goes on to talk about concerns about more hate directed to the Canadian Jewish community. And essentially, he's saying in his statement that this is going to cause more problems in the region. Is there a danger, though, that these bands could end up leading to more support for the more extreme or far-right elements inside Israel's government? My answer would be no. The greatest danger of all is what's been happening over the last 30, let alone the last 60 years, which is the influential countries in the international community, Europe and North America, doing absolutely nothing or very little with respect to trying to stem the growth and expansion of these settlements. These settlements forced all any possibility of a Palestinian state, and yet that is the stated goal of virtually every country in the global North. They say there will be no peace and no prosperity for Israelis and Palestinians, unless there is a Palestinian state that we know the whole purpose of the expansion of these

35:37settlements is to ensure that there is no Palestinian state emerging. So unless I think Israel, and the Israeli economy, winds up feeling actual pain, these settlements will continue to grow and inspire. And I think that offers the best chance for changing the minds of a number of Israelis as to where they're headed with this continual expansion of settlements. As long as they think that there'll be no price to be paid for another 50,000 or another 100,000 settlers, then I'm afraid we're reaching a roadmap of continual conflict and domination. You've underlined this throughout our conversation, but as these countries in these statements today, are you to rate their support for a two-state solution? Is there meaning to that given what you've already said? I'm an eternal optimist, so let's hope that there is. But as I said before, I fear that we're very late in the game with respect to imposing more serious sanctions against

36:38Israeli goods. And we have to remember, it's not settlements alone that are producing the growth in settlements. It's Israeli government themselves. The settlement enterprise is the largest single political and economic enterprise of the Israeli government through its entire history. And it's financing and support of these settlements through building roads, through providing utilities, through the financing of these settlements, ensures that they're stable and they're going to continue to grow and continue to be an attractive place for Israeli Jews to wind up settling. And what it does, in fact, is ensure what the future holds is more annexation, more repression of the Palestinians. Michael Link, I thank you for this. Thank you very much for having me. Michael Link is an associate professor at Western University and a former United Nations special rapporteur for the human rights situation in the Palestinian territories. We reached him in London, Ontario.

37:43For generations, the woolly dog was a fierce and loyal companion to indigenous people across the Pacific region. In Salish and Makkah cultures, women would tend to woolly dogs and use the thick fur that gave them their name for weaving. But the arrival of European settlers, residential schools, and the potlatch ban caused the dogs to go extinct. For the last 160 years, the only known remaining woolly dog Pelt has been in storage at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C. But now it's been transported to the Museum of Anthropology at UBC, where it'll be temporarily displayed on the same land where the animal once roamed. Athena Peacca is a Coast Salish artist who got to see the Pelt at a private event for members of the indigenous community. We reached her in Vancouver, B.C. Athena, what will you remember about being there seeing this Pelt for the first time and among the first to see it since its return? I think what stood out to me the most was just being able to

38:45be part of a group to introduce ourselves to Mutton again. I know that when people return to our communities, we gather and welcome them back home. And Violet Elliott, a weave from Sonanayama, who I believe, suggested that we do the same to welcome this woolly dog back. And so it was a really beautiful hearing everybody introduce themselves, tell them, share with each other what communities they're tied to, share their history to weaving and who they remember in their families, having seen or spent time with or connected to the woolly dog as well. And any stories that they heard about the woolly dogs. It was a really powerful moment for me. It brought up a lot of emotions for many people, but I just remember the pride I had. Yes, so proud to be salish right now. Oh, that's beautiful. Where does that emotion and that pride? How is it tied to what you were

39:46looking at? Any law done in Coast Salish Country, any legal thing that happens includes weaving in some capacity. And the weavings come from the fibers from this land, from the animal fibers, plant fibers that dies everything from this territory. And obviously it's changed due to colonialism, due to the impacts on our environment, the impacts on our territory, everything, and impacts on our language. All these things like change how we do things, but we still continue to use blankets and weavings in different capacities. This dog coming home is a reflection of that. Like he traveled like post-mortem out east. Now down to Seattle and up here wouldn't surprise me if you makes a visit back to home home up in Chilohac. But I'm so happy that using Coast Salish territory again and that we get to learn from him again. So what I hear in your voice is that this is this is

40:47about connection and validation as well. Oh yeah, big time. What I love about the woolly dog is it's validation of oral history. The dogs brought a lot of resources to our people. But one of the biggest resources is like love and care. They were part of our families. And that's something that came up a lot during the community visit on Friday is how these dogs are closely connected to our families. And if any emergency happens, you get the kids, get the dogs. And it still is like that. Nowadays in a lot of different families. And I think about how if I was using my dogs for for my well-being, for the well-being of my family to create wealth, to create like warmth everything, did you get to touch the Pope? Oh yeah. But I mean with with a glove hand because he's sort of, you know, old museum practices, they would use pretty harsh chemicals and poisons to

41:53preserve these like for any like taxidermy material, any natural fiber. They, because he was collected in the 1800s. So they tested them and he's covered in arsenic and lead and mercury. And I thought, oh my gosh, it's like three of the big four of like heavy metal poisoning. So we have to be really cautious about how we handle these natural fibers, which is really unfortunate because like how how we look after a button in the future, we have to think about what has been done to them in the past. And it's really unfortunate that if you know if for some reason we decide, okay, it's time to return them to the earth, we can't really do that because he's loaded with so many chemicals and things. And I think it addresses a lot with museum practices and I know that they've improved a lot over the years, but it is something I think about. And this is this is just a temporary loan. It's not going to stay at UBC permanently. How does that sit with you?

42:57I have a very love-hate relationship with museums. They're a really important place for people to learn about different cultures in an accessible way and a really beautiful place for stories to be shared. And I see a lot of that conversation happening all the time at the Museum of Anthropology. So I'm really glad that button is going to be looked after at the Museum of Anthropology for this next year. I think it would be beautiful if button got to be here permanently, whether it's at the Museum of Anthropology or one of the museums up in Chilowac. Because I know that there is a lot of beautiful places where he could be looked after and shared and the story about how he came here could be shared and people can connect with that and learn about why this dog is significant to this place, why it's significant to makers and creators, why it's significant to dog lovers in

43:58general, but also why it's significant to Coastalish way of being and like governance structure, everything. It's connected to everything with us. Athena, I'm so glad we could speak. Thank you. No problem. Thank you for this opportunity. Athena Peacca is a Coastalish artist. We reached her in Vancouver, BC. It looks bad. I mean, it looks unpleasant, but I also mean it looks slightly evil. It's grayish, bluish black. There are unsightly growths protruding from beneath the husk. Honestly, it looks not like the main horror movie monster, but definitely like the small henchmen of a horror movie monster. That's the bad news. The good news is that gross-looking cob of corn is apparently delicious.

45:00A traditional delicacy called Wheatlacocce, which has been popular in Mexican culture since Aztec times. It's the result of a fungus that only grows under very specific weather conditions. And in the U.S., this particular blight was historically feared, earning it the nickname devil's corn. But things are changing. Wheatlacocce has started popping up in artisan markets and restaurants around Missouri. Adrian Maldenado is the executive chef of Mallow, an upscale Mexican restaurant in St. Louis, Missouri, and that's where we reached him. Adrian, our listeners, as they heard, it has many names. It's also known as Corn Smot. I think I like Wheatlacocce the best, but what does it taste like? Yeah, so Wheatlacocce, when I describe it, I always like to say corn truffle or Mexican truffle, but it has this unique flavor. It's somewhat sweet, but overall, it provides like an earthy smokiness to it. And to really bring out that flavor, you got to cook it, prepare it in some kind of way. Otherwise, it's just this earthy, chalky smite. Does it compare to anything else

46:06you've eaten? Do you remember when you first tried it? Yeah, I mean, it compares to truffles, and I think nowadays, it's treated as the like the centerpiece to a dish. It's really taking a hitch-stried in the last year or two. When did you first taste it? I believe I first had Wheatlacocce roughly around 10 years ago. I was in culinary school. I had just started at a restaurant called St. Louis Cafe. My chef at the time, he brought in some Wheatlacocce, and I just remember like reading about it and knowing about it, but never actually trying it. And it was a lot of fun. And how are you serving it at your restaurant? Right now at Mallow, we're preparing it. Just picking it up in some butter, letting it rest, and all we do is we whip it into cold butter. We're just adding some fat to it, essentially, treating it with a decent amount of salt and lime. We're using it as a welcome bite. We're using its natural umami with that smoky, that earthiness,

47:07and cutting through some acidity. And it kind of acts as like a palant stimulator. It kind of gets your saliva going and gets you to wanting that first course right off the bat. Well, my mouth is watering already, and I have no Wheatlacocce nearby, so to bed for me, what are customers saying? How are they reacting? I think they're definitely learning curve, funny enough, because like the Midwest corn capital of the world, yet Wheatlacocce hasn't been widely adopted yet. We don't want only to create an excellent meal or an excellent service. We want there to be like little anecdotes, little like lessons that come with a dish or two. People are really enjoying like the story behind it, the wise and the house. Our Wheatlacocce comes from a small metadite farm in Central Missouri. Well, looking, I think for a lot of people, and if they just saw the photograph of what it looks like, you know, on the husk of corn, or they hear plant cancer, they hear all of these things, it looks like a blight, not a delicacy,

48:11right? So how has it shifted from that to for people in St. Louis to become more popular, do you think? What was the shift in understanding? I would say a shift in weather as well. People just mentioning like how the mid bus has become more and more humid, which creates idea that Wheatlacocce is more widespread and becoming more and more apparent. The fungus, like it naturally lives in the soil, anyway, it can kind of get in there and contaminate like the ear corn, which is it's happening more and more. Farmers are dealing with it a lot more. In a way, it can ruin a crop. So then it was the idea of like, okay, how do we make a profit off of this? Well, Wheatlacocce is edible. Do you think in the past? So it would have just been thrown out all of that corn? Possibly, but especially like how it was discovered, you know, days back to the Aztecs and you can only imagine like the thaw process, you know, it's trying to survive, it's trying to stretch food and it doesn't look that edible right off the bat. It has like this bluish gray

49:18tone to it. It looks like almost like as if a styrofoam is growing off a corn. So who started teaching people more about it? Restaurants like yours, of course, but were there other chefs or other people who said, hey, you just have to look to history and what the Aztecs were doing. This is a delicacy. I think for me personally, it was reading a few books by Enrique Alvera. He owns Pujo and a few other restaurants, Damien and Los Angeles. It is something that is used. It's making its way into that gastronomy world and it's a lot of fun. And the idea of like, it comes full circle to try and use every iteration of a food no matter what it is without waste. And how much does it cost? I mean, is it how do you get your hands on it? How are you harvesting it or acquiring it? It's fairly cheap, in my opinion, especially because it's becoming more and more abundant. People are trying to figure out how to make a profit off of it. But I like to always

50:20say we have kind of like a Wheel of Cocha dealer. It's basically like an industry friend throughout St. Louis. And he travels around and he gets Wheel of Cocha from farms and he comes back to St. Louis. He tries to sell it to us whether we need it, whether, you know, if we have ideas to use it. Just like a fun exchange. You mentioned, you know, the stories and the teaching that's part of the menu and the curiosity of your customers. You're trying to tell a bigger story here as well about Mexican food and Mexican culture. Yeah, exactly. Food and drink is the epicenter of social gathering. Food is a huge way to share culture and tradition. We're trying to present Mexican food in a way that usually isn't presented. We wholeheartedly believe that it's up there with French and Italian cuisine in terms of technique and elegance. Mexican food is kind of looked over. A lot of people think about the Mexican street food, which is delicious, but expect

51:21any and all Mexican food to be cheap. Mexican food can be dressed up in a certain way. It could be just as elegant. It could be presented a certain way. It is a beautiful cuisine. Are you experimenting beyond that introductory bite? Are you incorporating? Are you planning to incorporate wheat le coche in other dishes? Oh, 100%. Wheel of Cocha season's probably coming to an end over here. And so now it's idea like, do we bring some in, preserve it and use it throughout the fall? We kind of do have our fall mini locked in. So it's the matter of like, all right, where can we throw wheel of Cocha in to have some fun? Adrian, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you for this. Yeah, no problem. Thank you for having me. Adrian, Maldenado is the executive chef of the Mexican restaurant Malo, which serves Wheatland Cocha. We reach to him in St. Louis, Missouri.

52:23Sweden's government wants to dig up more rare earth minerals. And it has a tantalizing opportunity to do that underground near the mining city of Kiranam, hundreds of miles north of Stockholm is a deposit that's believed to hold one of Europe's biggest known reserves of rare earth elements. But that land is also home to indigenous Sami communities who have heard it reindeer across it for centuries. For months, tensions have been simmering. And now in the days before, Swedes head to the polls on Sunday, the debate and the rhetoric around Sami land rights and proposed mining expansion led by state owned mining company LKAB is at a boiling point. Lars Markus Kultmanen is a Sami reindeer herder and the chairperson of the Gabna community, which is located near Kiranam, we reached him in Gabna, Sweden. Lars Markus across Sweden people are certainly worried ahead of the selection about healthcare, security, where you are though, is the mining expansion the main issue for voters? For the Sami people, yes, I think they are really worried about because mines

53:28takes a lot of land and exploitation. So they are really worried about what is going to happen to this land. It's the early stages of planning for this particular expansion. Those plans are being reviewed. If the expansion goes ahead, what would it mean for your reindeer and your land? Lars Markus Kultmanen that's a very hard question because that will mean that we are not connected to our winter grazing lands and disconnected from Sami grazing and that will in the end be the stop of existence for this Sami community in this part of Sweden. We will cut off the reindeer. We need to go to the winter grazing areas in the winter because in the mountains it's really harsh winds and powerful snowfalls and really cold and the calves doesn't like it there

54:33during winter. They need the forests and deep forests that we also have and this mine is just in between and cutting us off. This is personal for you and many others. Yeah, it's very personal. Our way of life is threatened to existence. So it's really a really hard question for us. Can you imagine not being able to carry on that way of life? I will continue to fight. My grandfather, he has also fought against the existing mine, Elkaby and my father. He also fought very hard and now it was hard for him and for them for the previous generations to always lose the battles. A lot of Sami are quite tear down because of these industries. That history that you mentioned and the difficulties

55:43and the defeats, the mining debate is not new there. Is this time different? Actually, my grandfather, he said these mines will be, we will cease to exist because of these mines. He said that. But his son and the sons after we have all fought and we are fighting and we do this for future generations, my children and the communities, children as well. So we are quite powerful in that sense. We can't be bought with money because our way of life and our life since time immemorial is precious to us and we want to continue to do that. In May, you may have heard, but to let our listeners know, the Deputy Prime Minister of Sweden, Eba Bush said, reindeer husbandry is, quote, an industry that affects very large areas but has limited economic significance. Her party has said it supports Sami rights but also suggests that

56:48reindeer husbandry should no longer be considered a, quote, national interest. I'm quote, what do you make of that position and what she has said? Well, it's, as you say, Deputy Prime Minister of Sweden saying that she has said a lot of things that makes the Sami people be worried. I don't know why she does that but I think is to collect votes. Have you received a visit from the Deputy Prime Minister to your community or other Sami communities nearby or from other officials? Do you get the sense that they might be willing to cooperate or listen or compromise? Yes, she was in Kirona but then she visited the LKAB and not us. We are of no importance for her, I think. Six of Sweden's eight parliamentary parties say they want to have mining development and they

57:49talk about the importance of rare earth minerals, quote, strategically, important, unquote, for Sweden and Europe. We're hearing this from other countries as well, you know, in the shift to green energy, how necessary they are. Do you understand that push and that reasoning for access to these minerals? Yeah, we feel it every day when we are in the mountains and we are around Kirona, we feel it literally when we are out in the bush. We know the consequences of the mines. And when we follow media and they're reporting, there is a reporting that we don't exist, that we don't have lives here, but we have. We are an indigenous people and we are protected by conventions that this Swedish state has ratified and should follow, but they don't follow it.

58:53You mentioned your grandfather, your father, you've been living with the existing mine for more than a century now. How if this goes ahead, do you see the future for what you do and your community? What will you do? We are dependent on the reindeer enterprise. We are. We have always been in my family and in the Islamic community as I hold. And all our knowledge about the nature, the mountains, the rivers, the wind, the snow is very found around the reindeer. They are like the basis for our culture. What is going on now is some kind of cultural genocide that we are facing and that is really a shame

59:55that they are doing this to us. Lars Markus, I appreciate this. Thank you. Thank you. Lars Markus Kuhmanin as a Sami reindeer herder and the chairperson of the Gabna community. That's where we reached him. You've been listening to the As It Happens podcast. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio 1 after your world tonight. And you can of course also listen to our show online at cbc.ca slash a i h or on the cbc. Listen up or of course wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Neil Kuhmanin. And I'm Chris Houten. For more CBC podcasts go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.