Carol Burnett: A favorite conversation

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I'm Alan Olver, and this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating.

You look at our show. You can see me supporting Tim Conway,

or supporting Harvey, or Harvey supporting Vicki, or Vicki supporting me.

I mean, it was a true rep company, which is what I wanted.

So that everybody could shine, everybody could score a touchdown.

That's of course Carol Burnett, in a conversation we had back in 2019.

Carol is still enjoying a long and happy career, with a regular role in the Apple TV series, Palm Royale,

and guest appearances lately in Hacks and Frazier.

But as she said in a recent interview, the Carol Burnett show is the one project she'd like to be remembered for.

That landmark series started in 1967, and ran for 11 years.

We thought it would be fun to revisit our 2019 conversation when we explored what made her show so special.

And when we had a chance to reminisce about the times we've worked together,

including the times she played my wife in one of my favorite movies, The Four Seasons.

Carol, I am so happy to have you on the other end of the microphone here. This is so great.

I'm happy to be with you and to see you. It's been too long.

I know it. It's talk about how long it's been.

Once when we were working together, I don't know whether it was in six rooms review

or when we were making four seasons or on your show,

we figured out that we grew up together and didn't know it.

That's right. I lived in one room and a part of the building was my grandmother.

One block north of Hollywood Boulevard.

I lived one block north of Hollywood. This is one song like this.

I lived in the block north of Hollywood Boulevard and it was Yucca Street.

Yucca and Wilcox. And we used to, as a kid, I was around 10 or 11.

And as a kid, we would roller skate up and down, you know,

going towards Hollywood Boulevard and back and around the block and everything.

And then you and I got to talking about that years ago when we first started to work together.

And you said that you remember hearing us or seeing us out of a window,

you know, roller skating because your dad, Robert Alda,

was making a movie at Warner Brothers called The Gershwin Story.

It was called The Rhapsody in Blue, but he was playing Gershwin.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

And we were still living in this little bungalow with no light coming through the windows

because all the banana trees were blocking the window.

Oh my gosh.

It was just a little potassium.

A little cottage, you know.

And I always wanted, because I remember a girl in the yard when I was about seven or eight.

And I always wondered if that was you.

I don't know. It could have been.

I don't remember her roller skates, so probably wasn't you.

Well, we were roller skated.

Then we would run and play hopscotch and stuff on the street, you know.

That was way, way back in the covered wagon days.

But you were ill at the time and couldn't come out to play.

That's right. I had polio and I was in bed for months.

And I remember looking out the window, standing on my bed and looking out the window

with kids playing outside.

That was us.

Yeah.

You know, we could have been childhood buddies.

Yeah. Well, we got to be buddies later.

Better late than never.

Some of the best times I've had acting have been with you.

You're such a positive presence.

And it shows in your work.

And it shows in the preparation to work.

And my impression is, you know, we talk about communicating,

relating all the time on the show.

And one of the aspects of that is how a person manages a group.

And you had a group that for how many, 11, 12 years your show was on the air.

11?

And there was a sense of community that the actors had among themselves.

And that you had with the audience.

And that I think comes from your ability to relate to the people around you.

I remember you told me once.

Did they get this right?

That you wanted to work with people on the show who would be good to work with.

Oh, absolutely.

They were all talented.

But I think one of the aspects that came first was,

would they be good collaborators?

Well, you look at our show.

You can see me supporting Tim Conway.

Or supporting Harvey.

Harvey supporting Vicki or Vicki supporting me.

I mean, it was a true rep company, which is what I wanted.

So that everybody could shine.

Everybody could score a touchdown.

And you had amazing talents.

Oh, my gosh.

And guest stars.

You.

You know, I came across on YouTube.

The two of us singing a song.

Yeah.

I was dressed up as a Santa Claus.

That was, um, nobody does it better.

Yeah.

Nobody does it better.

I couldn't sing it now without a lot of preparation.

In fact, when I saw it, I thought,

oh, my God, I'm singing in tune.

You sang up a storm.

If you're the right one, I'll know it.

Oh, what if I blow it?

Nobody does it like me.

If you're the right one, I'll guess it.

If we click, bet I mess it up.

Nobody does it like me.

But all at once, I'm feeling lucky.

All my butterflies are gone.

Look at me, they hardly ducklings.

Suddenly, a lovely swan.

If there's a wrong way to tie a knot.

A right way to care a lot.

Nobody does it like me.

Oh, nobody does it.

Nobody does it.

Nobody does it.

Here.

You and me.

You and me.

So I got a question for you.

How did the iconic moment when you come down the stairs?

Gone with the wind?

Gone with the wind.

Did you know that was going to stop the show for the next generation?

I wasn't surprised because originally the writers had written

that I would run up the stairs as Starlet, O'Hara,

and just come down with the draperies hanging on me.

And Bob Mackie, our brilliant costume designer,

who designed every costume we wore.

He designed average of 65 costumes a week.

Oh, my God, how did he do that?

I don't know, in 11 years, that's a little over 17,000 costumes.

Oh, my God.

And he would come up with all these comedy, wonderful looks.

So I went into costume fitting that Wednesday.

We're going to tape on Friday.

And he said, you know, the draperies hanging,

that's not as funny as it could be.

He said, come here.

I want to show you what I have in mind.

And I walked into the dressing room.

And there it was on the curtain rod.

And I said, Bob, this is going to go down in history

as one of the funniest sight gags ever in television.

And it sure did.

And it has.

I never see it without laughing.

And the line, too, he says that gown is gorgeous.

And she says, I saw it in the window,

and I just couldn't resist it.

It was a great, great punchline today.

How much improvising was there in rehearsal

or on camera during the show?

Well, Tim totally improvised.

He would love to surprise people

and make you laugh.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

You know, sometimes we were criticized

because you shouldn't be doing laughing like that.

But it wasn't as often as people think.

Because they just remember it.

Right.

And it's involuntary, right?

I mean, you can't stop it once you start to break up.

Yeah.

And the more you try to stop it, the worse it gets.

Tim was merciless.

Totally merciless.

Like in the dentist sketch.

Half of that stuff he did on air,

which he didn't do in the dress rehearsal.

Oh, wow.

That's why Harvey was...

Tim swears, Harvey wet his pants.

And Harvey prided himself

on being very serious about his comedy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He did not like it when he broke up.

He was not a happy camper.

But...

He broke up at the...

At Tim.

Also at you with the pole over your shoulders.

No, he was...

No.

It looked like he was holding it back.

No, he was...

That's the thing.

We...

We impute breaking up when it doesn't even happen

because we knew once a while it did.

I almost started to break up coming down the stairs

and I was biting the inside of my sheet.

Oh, God.

To keep from laughing.

But you knew how great this was.

The audience went nuts.

Did...

Did you ever get...

If you've mentioned program practices...

Yes, I did once.

The euphemism for censorship on the network.

What...

What was it they didn't like you did?

We were...

Harvey...

And Harvey and I were doing a sketch.

And he was interviewing me voice over.

Kind of like Edward Armero, you know.

Yeah.

And I'm a nudist.

And I'm behind a fence that says keep out.

And my shoulders and arms are bare.

And I'm kind of leaning over the fence.

And my legs are shown from...

Just above the knee down with high-top sneakers.

I mean, it's a funny look.

Yeah.

And it was...

Nothing but jokes about being in a nudist colony.

Great.

So one of the lines was...

Harvey said, so what do you nudist do for recreation?

And my line was...

Well, we have dances every Saturday night.

Oh, well, how do you nudist dance?

Very carefully.

So now...

So for some unknown reason...

Program practices thought that was too dirty to get...

Oh my god.

Now a days they'd show it.

Tell me.

So they said come up with something else.

Okay.

This was what we wanted to say in the first place.

But we didn't think they'd let it go.

But they did.

Okay.

We have dances every Saturday night.

Oh, how do you nudist dance?

Cheek to cheek.

And that was okay.

That was okay.

You wonder what goes on in the dirty minds of the Sensors.

I don't know.

We had a similar thing on magic.

A Margaret of formerly known as Hotlips.

Yeah, yeah.

It came into the tent and...

Caught out of the corner of her eye, a jock strap on the table.

And berated Hawkeye for parading that thing around in front of her.

They sent us a note.

You cannot have a jock strap on the table.

And you cannot even have a white piece of cloth representing it.

What?

Because there's something so sacred about male genitals like this.

You can't refer to it in any way.

But previously on programs, I'd be playing Hawkeye in a scene that was totally uncensored.

I'd walk into a clothesline full of braziers and panties.

Yeah, nothing sacred about those.

Nothing sacred about that.

That was fine.

Oh, that's funny.

I'm so caught up in talking with you.

I never have a conversation like this with anybody else who I forget what I wanted to know.

Because I get so tied up in what you're telling me.

Oh, I think sometimes about criticism.

When you have a bit of something critical to say to somebody,

you want them to do something differently or better or something like that.

You know, they often say you should start with something positive.

Sometimes I'm so sensitive to criticism.

I hear the positive part and I think, oh, here comes the bad stuff.

You know, but I always, when I think about giving criticism,

I always think of that story you told me.

Were you at the upstairs at the downstairs when you were starting out?

No, the Blue Angel.

The Blue Angel.

I think the first night and you had a song about John Foster Dulles.

John Foster Dulles.

Tell me that story again.

I love that story.

Oh, well, I had this nightclub act.

It's 20 minutes long.

And the Blue Angel was a very in nightclub in New York.

And there were always four acts for performers.

And each act was 20 minutes and then there'd be a break in between and so forth.

So the writer that I worked with Ken Welch,

he later wrote all my specials and wrote on my show,

did a special material number.

And this was at the height of Elvis Presley's popularity in 1957.

So he said, and then Secretary of State was John Foster Dulles,

aptly named.

He was quite dull.

You know, you had no sense of humor or anything like that.

And Worf a Dora and I always had this down expression.

So Kenny said, I'm going to write a song about you, a young girl,

not crazy over Elvis, but crazy over John Foster Dulles.

And I said, that is really funny.

So he wrote it and is a very funny song.

And I did it at the Blue Angel.

I opened with it and the audience loved it.

And I went on the Jack Pars show.

I sang it on the Pars show.

And then I had to go back to do the midnight show at the Blue Angel.

And the phones were ringing off the hook.

And one of the calls was from John Waters or David Waters.

I can't remember who was Mr. Dulles' television adviser.

And he said, I saw this.

And Mr. Dulles didn't, could you go back on the Jack Pars show and do it maybe Thursday night?

So he can see it.

So yeah, so I went back and did it on Thursday night, the par, people,

then I did it on its Sullivan, the Sunday night.

So three in a row.

And I have two stories.

So I'm on one and then I'll get to yours.

So the following Sunday, I'm watching Meet the Press.

And Dulles is on.

And it's all very serious until they're going to sign off.

And the one last question is Mr. Dulles, what is this thing going on between you and that young girl

who sings that love song about you?

And I'm sitting there watching it.

Oh my Lord.

And he got a twinkle in his eye.

And he said, I make it a policy never to discuss matters of the heart in public.

Oh great.

Was it a grade?

Great.

So now I feel I get cocky.

I get cocky because I've got, you know, I've been on television three times in one week.

And I'm doing the Blue Angel.

And everybody's coming to see me.

And I got two full of myself.

Yeah.

You know, and I thought, oh, boy, I've got it nailed.

So this one night, and I opened with the Dulles number and I come out to do my act.

And I do the Dulles number.

And the audience is like an oil painting.

They're just staring at me.

No laughs.

All right.

And then I had the rest of my 20 minutes to go.

And the flop sweat was just horrible.

And I think, oh my God.

And I barely got this when I finished my act.

And so now I had another show to do because that was an early show.

And then there was another one at midnight.

So I go up the stairs and I'm headed down the hall towards my dressing room.

And I'm crying.

And I thought, oh my God.

What did I do wrong?

What did I, you know, I was just too sure of myself.

Anyway, so there's this man coming towards me to go to the gentleman's room.

And he's kind of had a little too much.

He's, he tippled a bit.

And he was, he was drunk.

And so he cut, and you know, and I had to pass him in the hall.

And as he was going into the men's room, he looked at me.

He said, hey, weren't you that little lady who was just on the stage down there just now?

And I said, yes.

And I think once he, and he said, boy, you stink.

That's the example of giving criticism.

I always think of, well, it was the best thing that ever happened.

Because from then on, I never was cock sure about myself.

And so I didn't come out with that old, hey, aren't you lucky to see me?

You know, that's the worst impression to give an audience.

You're so lucky to be here looking at me.

Exactly.

And I see a performer do that.

I just cringe.

Well, you turn off.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's any kind of slickness, you know.

Ilya Kazan used to say he liked to work with actors before they got slick and looked like actors.

Oh.

And we don't all have to do that.

But it takes work not to get slick.

Yeah.

Because it's, there is something about it as glorious as it is not to know what the next moment

is going to be.

That's right.

You can take refuge in doing it over and over and know you have a way to accomplish it and avoid

the fear of the unknown.

Exactly.

But I think the best way to avoid the fear of the unknown is not to be afraid of it.

There you go.

To welcome it.

You know, it is something wonderful about it.

When we come back from our break, I reminisce with Carol Burnett about the time we worked together

in the movie I Wrote and Directed in 1981, The Four Seasons.

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This is clear and vivid.

And now back to my conversation with Carol Burnett.

Recorded in 2019.

You had this sense of community with the actors

that is, I think we all want to believe that

when we're having fun watching a show that's so much fun,

we want to believe they're a family.

Yeah, we were.

Yeah, and if you really are, that makes a big difference.

I think it shows in the electric flight.

Well, it showed in MASH.

It showed in MASH.

And you know, Mary Tyler Moore.

Yeah, and when we, when you and I made four seasons.

Yeah, absolutely.

We had, that was a movie.

And in a movie, you don't get a chance to rehearse.

Right.

Almost never.

But we rehearsed.

I don't know if you remember my saying this as the director.

I said, we have, we have three weeks to rehearse.

And we'll go over the lines and we'll rehearse the scenes.

But the most important thing we can do during these three weeks

is become close friends.

Right.

Because it was a movie about six close friends in friendship.

And the ups and downs of it.

And as soon as I said that, everybody was such a good camper.

Everybody started telling embarrassing stories about themselves.

So that we opened up to what?

Do you remember that?

Oh, my God.

And remember Jack Weston, who was such a good actor.

Oh, yeah.

And he, every time we, we got to a different season in the movie

where there was a different physical activity to do.

Like he had to ski.

Yeah.

He'd say, I don't ski.

I can't.

I'll just pretend to be skiing.

I'm not skiing.

But we don't wait till we get to the motorcycles in the next season.

I love motorcycles.

We get to the motorcycle season.

He'd say, I don't really ride a motorcycle.

I'm no good at it.

But boating is my thing.

When we get to the summer sequence and boy, he never did anything.

I don't.

Oh, that was a, that was a funny scene.

I remember the one where we were all, where you and I started laughing.

When we were hearing the characters of Best Armstrong and Lynn making love.

And the next compartment.

And the next compartment.

And you and I got, we, we improvised that.

That's right.

The whole scene was improvised.

Yeah.

And the laughter was so genuine.

And the sounds from the other room were so genuine.

They were over in the corner, improvising, love making.

Which was already a peculiar thing to stand in the corner of your eye.

You see them at a microphone.

Yeah, yeah.

It just occurred to me.

I know this is from left field, but it occurred to me.

How many characters you created on your show?

And what a sense of character you had.

Even though they were often exaggerated characters, when I asked you if you wanted to do four seasons

with me, you were so kind and thoughtful about the way you said, yes, I'd like to do it.

But how about if we talk about making the character a little deeper?

I forget the exact words you used, but that was the intention.

And you had such good ideas about what made that woman different from all the other characters in the piece.

Oh, thank you.

And it was very helpful.

I remember I wanted us as the characters to have a fight.

Yeah, yeah.

And that...

And she was too perfect.

And that was the thing.

I thought she was a little too perfect.

Yeah.

So to have some flaws so that you and I could...

Right.

Because my character had plenty of flaws.

You're the one who organizes these trips.

And I hate it.

It doesn't ever occur to you that sometimes I'd like to be the one with the sore knee.

No.

You handle everything like three of the most efficient people I know.

I know that they can do what you do.

Like, God, you're perfect.

How dare you call me that?

How dare I call you perfect?

Yes, that's what you said.

I was gonna have what I heard.

What's wrong with perfect?

How come you get upset about that?

Because when I'm perfect, I cease to exist.

You don't have to hug me when I'm low.

You don't have to cheer me up with a bunch of $2 daffodils.

Nothing.

I don't surprise you with daffodils.

Oh, I do.

You know I do.

When you feel like it.

But it makes you feel good, but not when I need them.

The reality is you're married to a middle-aged woman with a good sense of humor and dry skin.

And if you don't like it, then go find yourself a nymph.

Just do me the courtesy of telling me.

In other words, and I mean this in the most loving way.

Shit or get off the pot.

I was working very hard on the script writing it.

One day, you know how when you're in the shower, your mind ranges over all your work.

And I came out of the shower and I said to Arlene, you know, I finally realized who this character is.

I'm writing.

I understand that with all his flaws, he's my father.

And Arlene said to me, you're kidding, right?

I said, no, what do you mean?

She said, it's you.

Oh, no wonder you've been married so long.

I'm so successfully.

It really interests me a lot.

The durability to open yourself up.

It's very generous.

I'm thinking, for instance, of the book you wrote about your daughter, Carrie.

Tell about that.

Well, years ago, before she got sick with cancer, she took a road trip.

She was writing a screenplay about a girl, a kind of Bohemian young girl who from Hollywood gets in a car with a mysterious cowboy.

And she wants to go to Graceland.

But it's her adventures along the way.

And you don't know who this mysterious cowboy is until the end.

And so she would write me, she would email me scenes as she was taking this road trip.

And I would comment on them and everything.

So she had the beginning and the ending and the middle needed work.

So when she was sick, she asked me, she said, Ma, could you finish my screenplay for me?

I said, honey, I don't know. They're your characters to write.

She said, that's okay.

So that had been living with me for about 10 years after she died.

And I thought, I can't do that.

But what I can do is write about her and my relationship going through because she had tumultuous teenage years when she was into drugs.

And then she got sober when she was 17.

And then she went on to become a writer, a singer, a songwriter, an actress.

And she did so much stuff.

And in fact, she did this cult movie called Tokyo Pop that got great reviews.

Marla Brando called her.

He said, I'd like to talk to you about a project.

And she said, no, thank you.

What?

That's what I said.

Are you crazy?

She said, Mom, I already did.

I want to concentrate on my music.

So she wanted to do, she didn't care about being famous or a star or anything.

And so I thought, well, I want to write about how we coped with the drugs.

How finally I had to love her enough to let her hate me.

Because she did when I slapped her into rehab places and stuff like that.

You know, oh my god, she called me every name in the book.

But then she got well.

And she started, as I say, performing and rehearsing and so forth.

And then she got sick.

And she had an amazing attitude about it.

And she at first is the fear, the anger, the why me.

But then she kind of settled into some sort of a zen moment.

And she, she still had a sense of humor.

She was in and out of the hospital a few times.

The last time she was in the hospital, the nurse came up to me.

I was headed for Carrie's room.

And she said, I have to tell you something about Carrie.

I said, what?

She said, she cheers us up when we go in to the room.

You know, she bald headed and all of that from chemo and everything.

And I said, Carrie, the nurse said, I said to her, I said, Carrie,

how come you're always so cheerful?

You know, and Carrie said, every day I wake up and decide.

And that's a key word, decide.

Every day I wake up and decide, today I'm going to love my life.

That was it.

So I thought about all of this.

And then I thought, you know what?

I'm going to write a book about us, Carrie and me.

The first part of it.

And then the last part will be her half finished screenplay.

We do what's thing on the show where we end every conversation with seven quick questions

and yeah, I know, but they're very mild, don't worry.

They're not embarrassing.

And we invite seven quick answers.

And they're sort of about roughly to do with relating and communicating.

You'll see what I mean.

And they're not intrusive.

Okay.

What do you wish you really understood?

Life.

Okay. That was quick.

What do you wish other people understood about you?

That I...

That's a tough one.

Yeah. I always found it tough too.

Yeah.

That it's okay to come up and say hello.

That's nice.

Because you...

I welcome it.

You're who you are.

You're not the icon.

Yeah.

What's the strangest question anyone has ever asked you?

One odd question that I got when I was doing my Q&A show.

You have to remember it was 10 years ago.

And I called on this lady and she said, Carol,

if you could be a member of the opposite sex for 24 hours

and then pop back into being yourself again,

who would you be and what would you do?

And the audience would woo.

And I thought, and I said a little prayer.

I said, okay, God.

I'm going to open my mouth and whatever comes out

is going to be your fault.

And I swear, Alan,

I didn't know I was going to say this until it came out.

I said, remember, it's 10 years ago.

I'd be Osama bin Laden and I killed myself.

The audience screamed with laughter and applause.

And I just said, thank you, God.

I was going to say that until I opened my mouth.

Now, how do you stop a compulsive talker?

I think I yawn.

You do, you literally yawn.

I definitely really mean that.

But you said, how would you do it?

That's what I guess I would do.

Yeah.

You could really give what to.

If empathy is figuring out what the other person's point of view

is, what they're going through,

is there anyone from whom you just can't feel empathy?

You want me to say it?

You don't have to name anybody.

Oh, well then.

Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

And that is because that person has no empathy.

I got you.

Ah, so a lack of empathy would inspire the same thing in you.

Yeah.

How do you like to deliver bad news in person on the phone

or by carrier pigeon?

Well, it depends.

I guess in person, if that would be allowable,

if it's bad news and the person is 3,000 miles away,

it would be either carrier pigeon or the telephone.

Nobody uses a telephone anymore.

I hate the telephone.

I've always been nervous on the phone.

So I was very glad when email came in.

I don't text.

Do you text?

I do the whole thing.

Yeah.

But you know, if it had been texting first

and there had been no telephones

and then the telephone would be invented,

everybody would say, oh my gosh.

You could do a voice.

You could hear a voice.

I know.

You're right.

They came in the wrong order.

Exactly.

So what if anything would make you into friendship?

Oh.

Cruelty.

Toward you or anybody else?

Anybody else?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Well, I hope nothing ever happens

that ends our friendship.

I've threatened it in any way.

No way.

You're terrific.

I love you.

Thank you so much.

I love you too, Carol.

Thank you.

And our lean sends her love.

Back at you.

And it's great.

Thanks.

Thank you.

This has been Clearing Vivid.

At least I hope so.

My thanks to the sponsor of this podcast

and to all of you who support our show on Patreon.

You keep Clearing Vivid up and running.

And after we pay expenses,

whatever is left over goes to the

all the Center for Communicating Science

at Stony Brook University.

So your support is contributing

to the better communication of science.

We're very grateful.

For her 70 plus years of brilliance

on television and film,

Carol Burnett has been awarded seven Emmys

and seven Golden Globes,

as well as a dozen people's Choice Awards,

a Tony and a Grammy.

And that's just a few of the accolades

that include the Screen Actors Guild's

Life Achievement Award in 2015.

And the best news is

you can still catch her masterpiece

the Carol Burnett Show on Me TV.

This episode was edited and produced

by our executive producer,

Graham Shed,

with help from our associate producer,

Gene Shume.

Our publicist is Sarah Hill.

Our researcher is Elizabeth O'Haney

and the sound engineer is Eric Ahwan.

The music is courtesy of the

Stefan Kernig Trio.

Next week, we look into the future.

When executive producer,

Graham Shed and I preview clips

from some of our upcoming shows

in Clear and Vivid's Season 33,

hope you'll join us then.

For more details about Clear and Vivid

and to sign up for my newsletter,

please visit allenolda.com.

And you can also find us on Facebook

and Instagram at Clear and Vivid.

Thanks for listening.

Bye-bye.

Hey everybody,

Ted Danson here to tell you about my

podcast with my long-time friend

and sometimes co-host,

Woody Harrelson.

It's called,

where everybody knows your name

and we're back for another season.

I'm so excited to be joined this season

by friends like John Mulaney,

David Spade, Sarah Silverman,

Ed Helms, and many more.

You don't want to miss it.

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