Catherine Fitts: Epstein, CIA Black Budget, the Control Grid, and the Banks’ Role in War

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Katherine Austin fits. Thank you for doing this. Hucker. Thank you for doing this.

The first time we did an interview over a year ago, different worlds completely.

And I remember thinking, wow, I've really spoken to anyone who thinks in such big terms.

I mean, that is a compliment. I wonder if this is all true. I think time has proven.

We've had a couple of meals in the subsequent months.

And so I'm just, I just want to say, I think you're really wise and I'm grateful to have you.

So I want you to know it was only 10 months ago, but it seems like it's a very long time.

Man, time is flying. Yeah, I meet people in airports all the time.

I used to think I was a conspiracy theorist, but I was right, you know, but it's kind of a variety of

that. But last time we had lunch a couple months ago, you were telling me about, and I wish we

had this on tape. I mean, we can recreate it here about the control grid, a concept that you

had explained when we last did an interview, and how it was, as you said, on snapping into place.

Can you, can you just, for people who haven't seen your previous talk, explain what the control

grid is, what it looks like and what it means? So the control grid is a process or an infrastructure

that allows digital technology to be used to assert phenomenal surveillance and control of

people. And at the very heart of it is what I call programmable money. So it's money that is no

longer just a currency. It's money that comes with a set of rules that can be surveilled and forced.

So imagine back in the pandemic, if, if you're money, if I said, okay, you've got to lock down and

your money won't work if you leave your house. You can't buy gas in your car because your money

is programmed with AI and software to enforce a whole set of centralized rules. And, and programmable

money allows the bankers who've been running monetary policy to now control fiscal policy and

essentially replace legislatures and executive branch by making and enforcing the rules to the

money. Now that requires a large infrastructure of surveillance. So you need digital IDs and then

you need the hardware locally and globally to, to do the surveillance and implementation. So for

example, if you look at the local hardware and now people are seeing it, you know, now that it's

material, they're beginning to see it snap into place. So I don't know if you know a flock

cameras, but there are many communities across the United States that are entering into contracts

paid by the taxpayers to put up cameras all around their neighborhood that track license plates and

keep that data and share it with a variety of people. Or you have the FCC is trying to overrule

local controls on cell towers so they can literally put cell towers every 400 to 700 feet so that they

can have the kind of invasive surveillance you need or you have satellites now that can literally

beam in Wi-Fi so that whether you have Wi-Fi in your home or not, they can start to track you.

And all those systems come, put you in what I call the panopticon. So we saw in the Middle East

with the first war with Iran. We saw 11 leaders out of 12 sort of top leaders in science and

and government assassinated because they're literally tracking everyone and they can identify

them and track them and then you have invisible weaponry that can then take them out or,

you know, can identify missile strikes. So-

I'm asking about, so you're talking about the 12-day war against Iran in June of 2025.

We were led to believe just as newspaper readers or news consumers that those 11

Iranian officials were targeted with human intelligence. You know that Israel had spies inside

of Iran but you're saying that was done digitally. That's probably, I would assume that that's

probably true because you always want to get human confirmation of what the systems are telling

you. It's always better if you're both. But we are now moving into building out the kind of

surveillance systems that can literally track, identify and integrate with not only our existing

weaponry but ultimately autonomous weaponry. So anyway, so let me step back. You've got three

parts to the control grid. One is the local hardware and infrastructure and that includes the data

centers because if you- The data, I thought those were for AI. They are. Because if you look at what it

takes to apply the equivalent of a social credit system to people's money, so the social credit

system I applied to you is different than the one I applied to me. And if you look at the

data I need to track you and test whether or not you're following the rules I've given you and

enforce those rules, it's an explosive amount of data particularly because you're looking not

just at financial control but spatial control. So what is AI good at Tucker? AI is here-

Is spatial control movement control? Yeah, so turn off the car. So Congressman Amassius trying to

kill the kill switch in your car. That's because spatial control means I can turn off your car

or I can set it so your money won't work more than a mile from your home or a 15-minute city.

So you literally, you're not allowed to leave your 15-minute city and your transportation and

your money won't work outside of that area. So let me step back. So what is AI good at? AI is

very good at tracking things that can be expressed mathematically and financial transactions and

spatial movement can be expressed mathematically. And so what the AI centers are for primarily

is to build that digital control grid and to manage that data. So and now it can be used for

many other purposes too. So it's not just going to be used for control but to me that's the primary

purpose and that if you look at the cameras, if you look at the cell towers, if you look at the

satellites and then the AI, the data centers, those are all component pieces of the local hardware.

So there are three sort of pillars that I track. One is the programmable money and that's what we

at Solaria trying to stop. The second is the digital ID because you need a global, you need

digital ID systems that are interoperable globally and then the local hardware. And those are sort of

the three pillars and what's interesting is there's phenomenal development of all three. We have

commentary at Solaria where we track. It's called the fast approaching digital control grid and

every week we update all the things they're being done to build those three pillars and have

them integrate with each other. And ever since the inauguration, it's been moving very, very quickly.

Now it's both sides of the unit party. They come at it in different ways and they do different things.

But but this is, you know, ultimately what this is doing is this is going to a point where

the central bankers, whether they do it with a central bank digital currency or private stable

coins and asset tokens, are setting the world up so that they can control your financial

transactions literally in real time with the equivalent of a social credit system.

I have so many questions. I've probably been in six or seven eight countries in the last month

and I think in every single country I had biometrics taken. Right. Either fingerprint or facial

recognition. Right. What role do biometrics play in the control grid? That's part of the digital

ID system. And that facilitates the surveillance. And it's interesting. So we do a lot to promote cash

because I think there are many things we can do to slow down or stop the digital control system.

But one of it is by embracing analog and keeping analog alive because to go to a really

serious programmable money, you need an old digital financial system. So we do a lot with cash.

But people will tell you if you go to Walmart, you leave your phone in the car and you use cash,

you come out having made a purchase. And the next thing you know, the next day on your phone,

you get a text from the company of the product you bought at Walmart. So they were able to

identify you. It's because of the biometrics. They have your facial recognition.

I had a crazy experience with cash. I thought if you, right before Christmas, I wanted to pay

employees a bonus in cash, which I always do. And so I asked my wife to go to the bank. She did

a Wells Fargo branch not far from her house. I want to take out this amount. Pretty large

amount, but not crazy, right? And they said, no, we can't give you the money. And why? Because

we think that you are being scammed. That there's probably someone outside with a gun demanding

that you withdraw cash. And she's like, what? No. So they called me. Anyway, I finally went into

the bank and got upset. It wasn't their fault. They were being told. I think my federal regulators

not to give me cash. And I said, I thought the point of a bank was to hold my money. You loaned

out of interest. I get less interest from you. So you make the money, but my money is safe,

but I get it when I want because I made it at my job. And they're like, we're so sorry. We're so

sorry, but they wouldn't give me the cash took two weeks to get the cash. What is that? It's called

nudging. Do you know what nudging is? Oh, there's all science of nudging. So if you're the central

bankers and you want to take cash down to zero, what you do is you create lots of different kinds

of rules and regulations that nudge people in that direction. Okay. So that's one of the things

that's happening. And you use these things as an excuse. Now, there's something else happening.

So that's not my imagination. That's part of a strategy. Part of part of what was happening was

nudging. Now, if you look at the person who implemented that, they're getting a role. They're

just doing their job. And one of the reasons they're getting the role and one of the things they

use to do the nudging with is you, if you look at the amount of cyber crime and financial fraud that's

happening that is causing people to go down and get cash, it's real. And the banks are losing a great

deal of money on it. And it's a serious problem, particularly because if you look at the technology

used to using it to be implemented, you know, I believe they're using our warfare. So they get

these people very addicted online and they get them doing sort of crazy financial things.

I was trying to wire. I was in the Netherlands. I tried to wire 5,000 euros to one of the people

who works for me. And my bank stopped it because they felt that I was a victim of a romance.

Romance. Right. I said, no, I assure you, this person writes my loving art column. It's not a

room. I mean, it's there's a romance with art here, but it's not with each other.

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think that banks beset by cyber crime would want to encourage the use of cash.

So, you know, the banks are in a movement for more and more central control. Again,

the financial system for 20 plus years has been steadily moving in all different layers from

regulatory to these kinds of things from a world where the bankers control monetary policy

to a world where they control fiscal policy. And that's all the nudging is all part of moving

there. Can you explain the difference for those of us who are not economically flowing? Okay, so

so since 1913, the United States has have a governmental structure where the central bank,

the Federal Reserve, which is the board of governors in Washington and the 12 central banks,

managed monetary policy. So they basically working with the banks, run the financial transactions,

the New York Fed runs the governmental accounts, they control the government bank accounts,

and their policies of Fed funds interest rate and money onto the reserve tracks affects the money

supply and the, you know, and basically the money supply and how the money works. Okay, so it's

more complicated than that because they have lots of regulatory functions. But the people vote for

their representatives. So whether it's the State House or the Congress, they vote for elected

representatives from their jurisdiction in the area. And those people decide fiscal policy,

which is what taxes do we collect, what tariffs do we collect, what bonds do we sell and raise money,

and how does that money get spent. So my representatives, your representatives are determining

fiscal policy and the bankers are determining a monetary policy and it's a balance of power

between the people and the bankers. Now with the digital control grid and and programmable money,

the bankers can assert control of fiscal policy and they can set, they can just decide what the

taxes are and take them out of your account and they can essentially determine the rules of how

it all gets spent. And so it's a very, you know, it's sort of a financial coup d'etat that over time,

you know, they want to assert complete control of fiscal and monetary policy. And essentially,

the legislatures will go to being sort of show and tell or, you know, go out of business.

We're we're moving quickly in that direction where the legislatures in every country are becoming

less powerful in many cases irrelevant. So here's my theory though, if you go back to 9-11

and when Wesley Clark said we're going to we're going to invade seven countries in five years,

what you were talking about were the countries where those central banks were not on board to

do programmable money. And their governance structures were not on board with essentially, you know,

because of Epstein, I'll call it the Rockefeller Rothschild model. There was an effort to say, okay,

we're going to basically assert control of the central banks in those countries. That's my

interpretation. And I think one of the reasons we're seeing so much tension around Iran is because

Iran right now is the big leakage in the system. How so please not about their nukes. No. So well,

you know, Iran's central bank counts. One of the reasons it counts is because their oil and

energy is very important, including for China. And that's very important in the brick system. What

the brick system is trying to do is to create independent payment systems. But if you're going to come

out with programmable money with digital IDs that are interoperable globally and programmable money

that that controls in each jurisdiction centrally, you can't afford leakage. And so you've got way

too much leakage in the system to proceed with what they're trying to do. And Iran is and the

brick nations are a sticking point. And certainly Iran's oil, you know, feeding China gives China

greater independence. So you think that one of the motives behind toppling all these governments

was the creation of the control grid we're talking about now. Right. So if you go back, so you had

the wonderful Richard Warner on your show. And Richard has a book called The Princess of the N,

which is about the sort of effort to take over the the Japanese central bank. And I think what

you're looking at, I think part of the state of play with both Russia and Iran is how are you

going to make sure that those central banks are entirely in the system? So yeah, that was an amazing

interview. And he told the story about writing this book on the Japanese central bank. I can't

imagine a more obscure topic for my non-economically minded standpoint. It'd be like writing a book on

postcards from the Faulk on Islands. It's like, it's just like, okay, a book on the Japanese central

bank. And he said, well, actually, they suppressed it. I couldn't get it published in the United

States. And you can't get a copy. And that's like checkable. So I checked it. You can't get a copy of

that book. It's really hard. You can, I think you can order from his publisher right now. Okay. Right.

But I mean, that like, why would someone try to suppress? Because it shows you the truth. It takes

you right into the secret government system. And it shows you the mech, the primary mechanism by which

they implement policy. Yeah. Well, it's always the things you're not allowed to say are probably

the important things, right? I mean, whenever they penalize you for having a thought, you're probably

on the right track. Well, it's it's one of the critical train tracks of control. So it's what I call

the third rail. So I used to finance transit systems and train systems. So, you know, a lot of these

systems have two tracks that the wheels go on. And then they have a third rail that the power line

runs on. And you get a trend trap that flips over and sucks the energy from the third rail.

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So back to programmable digital currency of all the features that you've described so far

of the control grid, that's the one that has not been fully implemented. Would that be fair to say?

So, so let me describe, yeah, as a not at all. And it's important to be talking about this now

because if imagine a tsunami approaching us, there is a tsunami approaching us. Right now,

if you look at the the traditional financial system, we're talking about hundreds of

trades of dollars, stocks, bonds, global stocks, and bonds market. The crypto marketer or money

is issued on a distributed ledger. It's tiny. So maybe it's four trillion dollars compared to

250 trillion, just counting stocks and bonds. And then we have the currency market, which is bigger.

So most people in the traditional financial system look at the distributed ledger system and say,

you know, it's tiny. It's tokens. Last year, we passed the Genius Act. So have you heard of the

Genius Act? Okay. So so people was quite a bitter, quite a bitter fight over it too. There's a

there's a there was a bitter fight. The big bitter fight right now is over the Clarity Act. So

the Genius Act created a regulatory framework for stablecoins. And I'll explain stablecoins

in a second. The Clarity Act was passed in the house last year. It's complement in the Senate

is called it's a discussion draft called the Responsible Financial Innovation Act. And so the

final act's name, I'll call it the Clarity Act, but I don't know which it will be. The Senate and

the House have not agreed. And that has become a very bitter fight. And I can explain what that's

about. The reason the Genius Act and the Clarity Act are are very, very important is there has been

a push to say we don't want central bank digital currency because we don't want the central banks

putting the banks out of business and controlling centrally. What has happened though is now they're

doing a form of private could think of it as private CBDC, stablecoins and digital assets and tokens

that can essentially implement the same social credit and control system, but through private

issuers. So, so let me turn to stablecoins for a second because the Genius Act has passed

they're working on regulations that'll come out at the end of this year, the beginning of next year.

If a stablecoin is issued, it's a crypto issued on a distributive ledger and it's basically the money

that is received to buy the stablecoin is reinvested in either treasury bills that are 93 days

or shorter in maturity or high quality bank deposits so cash. So, so basically it's 100% collateralized.

So, when you have a stablecoin, it's like having a little treasury bill, a dollar of treasury bill.

Okay, so think of yourself as using a treasury bill. It's not so different from US currency.

No, no, it's certainly in terms of value. And the reason you call it a stablecoin is you're hoping,

you know, theoretically a stablecoin could be done on other currencies as well, but you're hoping

that a dollar stablecoin will not be valid in the price, the way many cryptos are volatile in price.

So, it's it's designed so the price is stable. Okay, so so one of the hopes and one of the reasons

that we're issuing stablecoins is as foreign purchases of treasuries to finish, we're hoping

that you can put out stablecoins worldwide and attract retail money into the treasury market.

So, the wholesale market is rejecting you. And so, now through the mobile payment systems,

you can put out stablecoins. So, it's another way of propping up US debt.

It's another way of preserving US dominance, dollar dominance. Okay, and but the danger of course

is they're two dangers. One is if everyone in your town and main pulls their money out of the bank

and puts it on their mobile payment stablecoin, all the loan market and the credit creation

market in your town is going to collapse, right? Because they're leaving your local economy

and going into the treasury market to finance the feds. So, what Amazon did to retailers in town

stablecoin could do to banks and towns? To community banks and credit unions.

Now, they can also issue stablecoins, but again, that money's going to go into the treasury market

rather than, then, you know, multiply on Main Street. There's been a real

quiet war over the last 20, 30 years because the federal regulators have pushed the community

banks and credit unions to not make loans on Main Street, but put their money in the investment

portfolio where they do buy treasuries. Okay, and this is all part of getting your local economy

more and more dependent on federal money. I'm seeing this. Yes. All to there are only like four

trends in the modern world and there this is one of them. Power money, centralized, go to the

national capital away from the provinces. It's like it's happening. Well, but here's the thing.

And this is the little secret to real solutions. If if you look at the last 50 years or 70 years

since World War II, every effort has been made through taxes or credit or various financial

mechanisms to get all the money to go into central and come back down. Right. And now, if you go

into most communities, so America's 3,100 counties, most counties, 40 or 50 percent of the income

in that county is coming through, you know, it goes up to Wall Street or Washington and comes back

down. And so you end up with more and more central control. Now, here's the little secret. It's

economically insane. If you could do more money going around, you could make the pie much bigger.

Well, of course, right. Just like power transmission, the longer you have to move power along lines,

the more power you lose. Exactly. And technology should advantage the little guy, not the big guy.

So, you know, go back to. We can use pause there that thank you for, I mean, it just shows how old I

am that I know what you're talking about because that was the original promise. Right.

That, I mean, it's hard to believe now, but 30 years ago when the internet was being introduced

to the public, the idea was this is empowering for the, for the average person.

So when that happened, that was when my company, this was the fight I had with the Department of

Justice. We built software tools. We had one software tool called Community IPO on a box

to help everybody locally facilitate equity, you know, stock markets for local areas.

But we built a software tool called Community Wizard. And you could dial in and say,

my neighborhood is my county or my zip code or my congressional district. And you could map out

the sources and uses of all federal credit and money in your community. So you could get the

equivalent of a financial statement for the jurisdictions in which you vote for political representation.

So you could really hold your congressman accountable because you could see a financial statement

for your jurisdiction. And the Department of Justice Caesar offices seized the software,

put it, it took me six years to get it out from the courts. And when I got it out from the courts,

it was missing all the most important pieces. It's funny they'd want to discourage accountability.

Well, what I discovered when I was in the, in the administration was that if the local business

people could see how the money works around them, they could get back in the game.

So, you know, we regularly saw, I told you this before, we regularly saw communities where

HUD was spending 250,000 per unit to build public housing. And 50,000 would buy and rehab a single

family for close property in the same four block area. So, and I literally, but it was the same

with jobs. We were paying a contractor in Washington 125 per hour to do something that we could

keep local. You didn't need to set it all the way up there. So that a big contractor could,

corporate contractor could do it. You know, so there was a great story during the financial crisis

where a woman lost her job, very responsible hardworking, couldn't find another job,

ultimately had to take food stamps, which was a matter of great shame for her. And so she had a

problem with them and called tech support and got a woman in India working for JP Morgan Chase,

who had, at that point, 37 of the state food stamp, you know, programs they were managing.

And, and she said, wait a minute, you know, I could do this job. And if I was doing this job,

I wouldn't need food stamps. So why are we sending it to India with a big markup for a big bag,

when I could just do this job and then I wouldn't need food stamps?

It's hard not to see mallas in there somewhere.

Oh, there's total mallas. So, I mean, here's the thing. If, if I have a publicly traded stock,

and it's trading at a price earnings ratio of 10, just make it simple. If I make a dollar,

my stock goes up $10, right? Okay. Now, if government intervenes to take a million dollars

of income to, you know, the main street is making and shift it into a publicly traded stock,

that stock will go up $10 million. What's the biggest source of political contributions?

Capital gains, right? So, so the more I shift money out of Main Street into publicly traded stocks,

the more I get the pop on the stock and the more investors of real estate capital gains or

or company enterprise capital gains, the more money they'll get. So, you know, so in Washington,

there's this giant sucking sound. So, let's go back to the pandemic. Remember the pandemic?

Yeah, vaguely. You shut down Main Street, which is not publicly traded. And suddenly,

all their market share has to go to publicly traded stocks, either online companies or the big box

stores. So, never forget, there's a wonderful moment during the pandemic when Rick Santilli standing

on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, and he's saying, and Andrew Sorkin is up in the studio.

And Santilli says, this makes no sense. I'm going to the mall. All the little companies are closed,

Costco's next door, and the parking lot's packed, and Costco's packed. It doesn't make any sense.

Why are the little guys have to be shut down for the virus? But, you know, it's okay next door,

you know, because the parking lot's packed, people are all congregated in, you know, they're all

together. And Sorkin says, the virus can't go in Costco. It can't go on the big box stores.

That's science. Well, because Sorkin believes in science.

But here's the thing. If you look at how much money was made by Wall Street, it was a giant

sucking sound of market share, and publicly traded stocks, and then the capital gains go back around,

you know, for the political contributions. So I told you, I have an online book that explains

how this works, which I've tried to publish three times, and each time it's gotten sabotaged

the last time they threatened somebody in my family. So I backed off and never published. It's

online. It's, you know, it's not censored, but I've never put it in hard back. And I'm waiting

for everybody to die, and then I'll publish it again. I'll try again. I'll try for the fourth time.

But it shows you exactly how the game works on a private prison company that my old firm had

financed. So I show you, I get out all the SEC documents, and I show you the game and how it works,

how it translates into capital gains. Could you just summarize it really quickly?

Yeah. So we started a movement in the early nine days to privatize a portion of the prison system.

I remember. And it's economically insane. I think I was for it for the record.

I've had so many dumb positions over the years that I think I was for that.

So at the time that I wrote the analysis, the best figures I could get from general accounting

office was it was costing the whole criminal justice system was costing 154,000 per person per year.

And one of the reasons was the construction of all these private facilities is one of my theories.

But what I showed you was the stocks were trading on a per bed basis.

So if you could get a law passed that mandated longer census, the stocks would go up

because you get to get a bigger PE per bed. Okay.

Yeah. And literally what they did was they started the companies and then they started a program

to drop SWAT teams into neighborhoods to literally drop in and round up kids, you know,

who could be dealing drugs or not. You know, who was stealing the bringing in the drugs.

It wasn't the kids. And literally they cut off in DC. They cut off the money to the public

defenders office of the kids had to all call please. And that would stuff the prisons.

And at the same time, what they did is they created a company at the Department of Justice

called Unicorn that could market prison labor to corporations for tiny dollars.

No, really. It's a slavery system. Obviously. It's a slavery system. And the book describes

it's called Dillon Read in the Aristocracy of Stock Profits and explains how the whole system works

who made money, how they made money. And what's sad about it is, you know, my, my guess from doing

that analysis is that many of the people making money on it are the same people who are making

money bringing in the drugs. And I describe all those things. So and the power of the book, it took

me a year to write it. And I had a, I was living in Montana and you couldn't walk in my house. You

could only step on piles of SEC documents. And there are literally hundreds of thousands of pages

of documentation behind it because I had to prove all the different pieces of the financial

ecosystem. And so we put up all the documentation. And it was, you know, it was quite astonishing

because it really helped people who had trouble understanding the growing central control.

It helped them to see that it was very intentional. The saddest fact the moment we're living in

is that the American dream itself is evaporating for a lot of young people. And how do you know that

because they can't afford to buy homes? Owning property, something that was completely normal.

It was America's generation ago is now a dream for so many people. People are using by now paid

later apps to buy food, dinner, on credit. So what you're watching is the slow failure of systems

that don't work anymore. This isn't nostalgia. Things really are getting worse and you can feel it.

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Slash Tucker. In order to implement any big society wide change, and I think your COVID

example is a perfect one, you really have to construct a crisis and the change is a solution

to whatever the problem you created is. So like if you, I don't know, want to create a new

federal agency, you probably need a 9-11. If you want to make biometrics the rule, you probably

have to push AI and make the case that like, we don't know who anybody is because everything's

a deep fake. So you have to have biometrics and, you know, in your Twitter handle, etc.

What will be the crisis that justifies digital currency?

So let me sit back for a second because what I see is the crisis is only the apex and the third act.

To get the crisis working, you have to get thousands of things in place.

So for example, coming into COVID, I don't think you could have done COVID without, for example,

getting federal accounting standards advisory board statement 56 into place in 2018,

and then having the central bankers meet and approve the going director. I'm not familiar with that.

I will, I would be delighted to tell you about that because this is one of those things that

sounds very boring. That is like a, you know, a 10-rector earthquake. So for many, many years,

there was a group of us who were trying to bring as much transparency to the fact that there was

serious criminality going on in the federal counts and 21 trillion dollars was missing.

And, and that was happening because the federal government refused to obey the financial

management laws. So they're required, you're a citizen, you pay your taxes, they're required to give

you, you know, you give them your 1040 and they're required to give you back and says, okay,

here's how we spent your money. And that's required in the constitution, the financial management

laws. The federal government has, has said the mid 90s been in complete violation of those laws.

So there was a lot of pressure that was brought to bear when Dr. Mark Skidmore with

Celery published his report on the 21 trillion missing. And, and so pressure, pressure, pressure,

the DOD keeps saying, you know, we can't pass an audit, we're not going to pass an audit.

And then 2018, remember the Kavanaugh hearings? Very well. Okay, everybody was very busy,

you know, watching the Kavanaugh hearings. The federal government, the House, the Senate,

and the White House all together, October 2018, published an administrative policy called

FASB 56 that basically said, in violation of the constitution, the financial management laws

and the financial management regulations that they could set up a secret group of people by a secret

process and pull things out of the government's financial statements and keep them secret,

not just for the 24 covered agencies, but for 150 plus related governmental entities.

And when you take in the national security and classification laws,

that means also that the big banks and contractors working for the federal government can do the same.

Right, that's delayed in JP Morgan too. Right. And what that means is basically the entire

large cap stock and bond market in the United States is secret. The disclosure is meaningless.

It doesn't mean anything. And if you go to Salary, we have a missing money section,

and we have extensive, not only descriptions of FASB 56, but what it means to investors.

On what grounds could the federal government declare private businesses, the whole of itself,

all kind of off limits to disclosure? They have no legal basis because this is in violation of

the Constitution, the financial management laws, and the financial management regulations.

We have a section at missing money with seven briefing papers. It took me two years working

with our attorneys to do it that describe all the financial management laws of the United States,

so that you can see. And luckily, one of the interesting things that happened when FASB 56 passed

is Matt Taiibi picked up on it and wrote an article about it. It's funny. He emailed me,

he said, okay, I got the briefing papers. Thank God. Because it's very, you know, if you're

someone like Matt Taiibi, it's very hard to sit down and learn the financial management laws

in the United States. That's why we did the briefing papers so that any reporter could, you know,

get into this and master it in a reasonable period of time. Was this a, or just a regulation?

Was this, this is administrative policy. So in, in, in, in law, there's the Constitution,

there's the financial management laws, there's a regulation, and then there's the administrative

policy. So this is the total inversion. This is an administrative policy saying we can break

the Constitution, the financial management laws and the regulations by administrative policy,

but the House, the Senate, and the, and the White House all agreed. So it was a joint,

and they tried to sneak it through. And I was very lucky because there was a guy at the time who

worked for the American Federation of Scientists who literally read the Federal, Federal Register.

And I had signed up his, his newsletter because I didn't want to, but I trusted him to do it.

And he would keep an eye on the black budget issues of a guy named Steve Aftergood, very good.

And he, in his newsletter, he read it and he understood what it meant because it's so boring.

Nobody would understand that. That's exactly right. Right. What's not boring, and I just,

I'm sorry to keep interrupting, but I don't want anything to fall through the cracks,

the black budget issues, what black budget, what is the black budget, and what was he looking at,

and why should we care? So, so we have an over economy, we have a covert economy.

The covert economy is driven by a series of pools of money and cash flows. The first one,

Joseph Farrick calls it the hidden system of finance. The first one started with all the seizures

during the wars. So during World War II, a great amount of assets were seized and that created

a pool of money that was available for covert operations. So there's a wonderful story in

Christopher Simpson's first book about how the money they had seized had been moved into the

exchange stabilization fund, which is the mother of all slush funds that's managed by the secretary

of trade, managed by the New York Fed for the Secretary of Treasury. So the money had been moved in,

and the Dulles brothers are sending itself in a Cromwell and and they use that money to rig the

48 elections in in Europe at the request of the Vatican. Anyway, so so so so this is the, you know,

so we have these the seizure pool. Then what happened, we passed the National Security Act in 47,

and then in 49, we passed the CIA Act, which was very fractious. It literally took

assassinating forestall to get that done. Who was thrown out of a window? Yeah. Yeah, so that's

if that's a enabled hospital. Right. He'd been the Secretary of War. And he was very opposed to

the creation of the black budget and the creation of Israel. And so who killed him? And why don't

people understand that the the defense secretary of the secretary of war was murdered? So I don't

think one and a hundred people know that. So we, you know, he was a Dillon Reed partner. So I knew

that because I used to stare at his painting in the partner's board room and or dining room and

they would, you know, they would always train you by telling you if you're not careful in Washington.

It's funny. There are two books that I have read on it, but both of which cost like a hundred

bucks a piece on eBay. Because it's just, have you read David Martin's book? I don't know. I have

two. They're in my office. I read them. You want to read David Martin. We have a great interview

with Dave Martin. And let me finish telling you both are written in the 60s, but really quickly do,

I mean, say his murder, his murder was part of a deal to get the 49 act passed is my theory.

Okay. And and that and to create the creation of Israel. So it was both the black budget and Israel

that were and they needed to get him out of the way. So we have a big interview on it,

Salary, and I've looked very into it very deeply. I was very interested in forests. Anyway, so

the, but the 49 act was the CIA act. So you have the National Security Act 47, the CIA act,

what the CIA act authorized was the ability to appropriate money to different agencies and

then claw it back secretly to a black budget. So now we have the hidden system of finance with

pools of seized money. And we add to that a layer of money that can be appropriated and clawed

and used secretly only subject to very limited oversight by a committee in Congress. So,

so the appropriations committees wouldn't see that money only this one committee that oversaw the

black budget. Okay. And and if you look at those two pools, the next step happened in 81 when

Bush comes in. Bush comes in as vice president under Reagan and his deal with the Reagan folks

during the campaign was he'll, because he'd run the CIA, he'll run intelligence and enforcement.

And the Bushes were very, very good at the nuts and bolts of sort of the mechanics of government

and the legal system and money. He got an executive order done that said essentially,

you can use this secret money, the black budget money, and you can use it to hire corporate

contractors who can now do highly classified projects. Now let me explain what this means as a

financial matter. So we were talking about stock market going up. You can now take the most

secret powerful technology in the world and pay corporations to learn and end up owning that

technology secretly in a way that drives their stock to the moon. So now you've corrected the

US Treasury market directly like a pipe into companies and and drive their stock up almost to an

infinite map. It's quite as a financial mechanism. It's one of the most powerful things that ever

happened in our history. What percent? So we have the federal budget, which we can look up online.

But after FASB 56, it's totally meaningless. Okay, so it's meaningless because we don't know

where the money is actually going. Is that why? No, because the most important piece is the money.

But we don't know what's been taken out. We don't know what's been made secret.

So you can see what's there and you can see, for example, I can see by looking at the HHS

budget, how much we're spending to poison America. So I can see a lot. A lot. Yeah, no, it's huge.

And we're bankrupt in the country, poison America. But I don't know what's not there.

In other words, a secret group of people by a secret process have taken out whatever they want.

And I don't know what they've taken out. I don't know. Doesn't mean anything to me.

I mean, would it be possible to audit the federal budget?

You would have to audit the bank statements. You would have to audit. People say we want to audit

the Fed. No, you want to audit the federal accounts at the New York Fed. And you want to audit

the exchange stabilization fund at the New York Fed. That's what you want to audit. And what you

want to find out is where did the 21 trillion go or come in? You know, all the federal government

has refused to balance its accounts since the mid 90s. And we know that there are

inexplicable, undocumented adjustments of enormous amounts. And the only way you can figure out

what happened is to go into those bank accounts and figure out what came in and what went out

and to actually map out the actual cash. And you have to do it not just in the, you know,

so the New York Fed is depository for the OS government. So you have to do it in those accounts.

But you also have to look at the borrowing accounts and the slush fund accounts, which is the

exchange stabilization. Does anyone attempt to do any of that? So, so, you know, Rand Paul and his

father and Congressman Massey have talked about auditing the accounts. And it's funny because

Massey and I were at a great conference once. And he was talking about shutting down the Fed. And I

kept saying, no, no, you don't shut it down until you get the 21 trillion back. Otherwise,

they get to keep the 21 trillion. So Thomas was giving a wonderful speech. And he said,

you know, I think we should shut shut down the Fed. And then he looked at me and he said,

after we get Catherine's money back. Can I ask just quick about Massey? He's obviously got into a

very personal altercation with the president ongoing. There's the question of APAC. He was one of

the few people who didn't take APAC money. But the all out effort to destroy him, I just feel like

there's something more than just getting in a tiff with Trump for not taking APAC money.

So here's what's at the heart of Massey's fight. And, you know, are we going to be run

by the rule of law? Are we going to be run by a secret governance system essentially consolidating

things into what I would call the mega rich who are above the law? You know, are we, you know,

this is fundamentally about is there going to be the rule of law or not? And, and, you know,

the thing I love about Massey, he's an engineer. And if you talk with him or listen to him about

a wide range of subjects, you know, starting with food and agriculture, he is ruthlessly focused

on what is productive, on what makes economic sense. And what he knows is that the centralization

of control is destroying productivity. It's destroying wealth. And he knows that, you know,

whether it's family wealth or community wealth, you cannot, you cannot have a civilization.

You know, you cannot have a civilization if you have a society that is this enormously destructive

of individual sovereignty and individual and family wealth. And so he's literally, if you look

at all these different areas, he's just constantly moving out, making, you know, trying to do what

makes sense. And, and his understanding, because he's been an entrepreneur in a small businessman

and a farmer and a rancher, he understands the, the economics bottom up. One of my favorite Thomas

Massey stories I heard on your show, which was an amazing interview. I always make young people

watch at least the second half of your interview with Massey. The off-grid part. Yeah, when he's

talking about how he figures, he gets, he, he, he busts the, he's the county mayor essentially.

And he busts the prisoners out of the jail to help him install a new hot water heater,

because they can't afford to buy, you know, they have to buy used one, they can't afford to buy new one.

Okay, so that's, you know, that's exactly the story. That's a building well story, right?

Yeah. Yeah. What's, what's happened is so sad. It's hard to believe.

It's one of the finest people I've ever met in Washington. And I was just gone in this

direction. That's not helping anybody. You think? Well, you know, I tend to have a pretty shallow

analysis. So when I say it's helping no one, I, I'm not confident. I'm helping no one.

Our number one problem is the secret governance system. I grew that. And he's going right at the

heart of the issue, not because he, he wanted to, but because he's trying to do all these

fundamentally predictive things and five or 10 different none of us wanted any of these fights

actually. Right. I think it's fair to say he didn't really want these fights either.

Right. Well, here's the thing. So if I was, you know, if suddenly tomorrow, you know, I got,

I was in charge, you know, I was the dictator in charge. First thing I do is I'd outlaw dual citizenship,

you know, in an important governmental position. Obviously. Right. And, and, and, you know,

and that goes to the heart of the secret governance system and backdoor control. How does

dual citizenship go to the heart of secret governance? Because, because the secret governance system

controls through allowing people to operate above the law or have different incentives

that put the mouse out of the system. And I think the dual citizenship is part of that,

of that process. At the most obvious level, you can be indicted for a crime in the United States

and flee to the other country whose passport you hold. Right. So look at the sex offenders who

literally have, have done terrible things with children in this country who've flee to Israel

and are protecting dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of them. It's not just a few. We had a

high profile example this recently, but it's been going on a really long time. That's the obvious,

that's the most shocking kind of way. Wait, how do you get to, you know, try to molest a child

and then flee to our closest ally and stay safe? But you're saying that this same principle applies

to financial crimes and governance. So I suspect one of the things I've never known is what is

the full benefits of dual citizenship, but I suspect there are financial benefits as well.

Tell me what that means. So it could mean many things. It could be the ability to keep money

in Israel or through Israel off books, not subject to taxes. It could mean many things. It could just

mean financial rewards that are completely on the face of it legal. But I'll give you an example.

We've just seen two arrests in the UK coming out of the Epstein files, not for anything to do with sex,

but the fact that they had compromised state secrets. But presumably they did that in exchange for

you know, various benefits of being part of the network.

Then what is the network? In that case, I would, well, I would call it the Epstein network,

but I'd really call it the Rothschild network. So big picture that take away from my perspective

from the Epstein cursory reading of two million pages is that there's a government or a governance

structure above governments. So I would say that there are investment networks.

And if you look at what Epstein, if you come to Salary, we have a commentary up called,

was Jeffrey Epstein, the father of programmable money, which I believe, you know,

the answer is yes, or certainly one of them. And if you read, we're pointing to a sub-stacks series

written by a guy who writes anonymously under the name ESC as an escape ESC. And it's a marvelous

thing, very well documented back to the Epstein files that we've now received, describing how Epstein,

who I believe was laundering money, was allocating that money to all these different projects that

help develop crypto and programmable money. But what he describes in the process of one of those

sub-stacks is traditionally, historically, for the last 150 years, how the Rothschild networks,

and I would include Rockefeller and Rothschild as a sort of central banking network together,

how they operate both the family and then people who are sort of as calls in the switchboard,

the agents who sort of coordinate between the different houses and the network. And in one

sense, it's a very informal network, but it, because it has the blessing of the central bankers,

it receives a lot of protection from the intelligence agencies. And, you know, it's a networking

function. And he does a very good job of describing how it operates as a functional matter. And that's

a, everything he writes is exactly what I saw in Washington Wall Street. You have a layer of equity

pools in and around the central banks that are engaged in trying to build forward

in a variety of ways and position money and manage risk. And they are literally increasingly above

the law. And they don't seem directly tied to any particular country. They're sort of above

countries. Yeah, they're, you know, they, they, they can operate within a country sphere.

You know, but Epstein was basically global. And if you look at the programmable money and

what he was doing to build programmable money, that required operation in both Europe,

the United States, and around the world. Can I ask you a question that occurs? So if you,

China's economies now bigger than the United States is clearly China is going to be,

at some point, likely the dominant world power. I don't necessarily believe that. You don't.

No. Okay. Well, the, I, the nature of the Chinese government and civilizations seem to make it

kind of impervious to this sort of stuff. Like China is an ethno state. Right.

A Han Chinese ethno state. So I don't think they're going to be doing a lot of

dual citizenship type stuff in China. No. And I don't believe the Chinese government

is going to allow its authority to be challenged by international pools of capital, at least in the

east. Right. It's going to control the east. Right. I think. Right. So China is like a roadblock

to these forces. So the question is, you know, China was developed by

Europe and US capital. Right. And so the question is, you know, what obligations to China have to

European and US capital. And I don't know the answer. China's strength is if you look at what

they're doing with technology, their innovation and speed is astonishing and very, very impressive.

And it's racing by the United States right now. If you look at their demographic issues and they're

they have very serious demographic issues and they have a very serious real estate crisis

to be managed that has profound implications with the demographic problem because a lot of the

retirement savings put in real estate and now that real estate is down and they have an aging

population, they've got some real issues. So they have a lot to manage and a lot of how they do

depends on how successful their silk road innovation and you know, sort of investments work out

for them. So, but I'm not convinced that they necessarily have to end up as the dominant world

power. If you if you, you know, they've worked very hard for the last 10 to 15 years to make their

currency acceptable as one of the basket of reserve currencies. And yet, if you look at how much

the market share it's limited. And I think one reason is the distrust of the Chinese is

extraordinary because they are deeply, deeply committed to the superiority of the Han people.

And so, if you look at different experiences people have had with the Chinese, I think

you they have a real challenge to build trust. Now, the US was able to build that kind of trust

now we're blowing it. So, you know, the question is how fast can they build it versus how

faster are we going to blow it? I want to get back to programmable digital currency really quick.

How far are we from like universal adoption in the West? And when and if that comes, what will it

mean for like the average person? Okay, so let's go back to the clarity act. So,

stable coins are the, you know, trading the treasury bills. And the, I think, treasury's hope

is that they can attract, you know, several billion anywhere from four to 10 billion trillion

dollars into the treasury market with this mechanism by offering it globally. And if it's very

successful at a retail level, it's going to pull a lot of money out of local banking systems

all over the world. What's the advantage to using a stable coin?

You know, I can't, stable coin proponents will say that it lowers transaction fees,

which will probably be too internationally. But frankly, I can't think of one reason why I

would ever, I have no intention of using any of them. So, the last thing I,

Well, you're against it like philosophically and for, you know, for the reasons you've articulated,

but it's like Amazon, Amazon's obviously bad, but everyone uses it because they're clear benefits.

It's like, it's cheap. It's fast. Right. Are there clear benefits to the consumer in this,

in stable coin? So, what really come down is if you want to use a system on your mobile

payment phone, you know, which will be better Venmo or the stable coin. And, and it, it depends,

a lot of that depends on what comes out in the negotiation next. And I'll get to that in a second.

If the FinTech firms can offer rewards and interest, interest, then, then they can make it very

attractive to use a stable coin. And, but it's not clear, it's not clear how that's going to sort out.

Sounds like the US government needs the stable coin in order to keep treasuries selling.

You know, if, if you look at how much they say they're hoping to get, it's not that,

it, it, it's not going to make the big difference. Okay. Now, let's talk about asset tokens,

because that's where the big float is going to come. So, uh, the clarity act is what is,

is creating the, as, as the genius act created the framework for stable coins, the clarity act

and, and its senate version is creating the framework for digital assets and digital tokens.

Now, Larry Fink and BlackRock have said they're planning on trading all stocks and bonds

using tokens or digital assets. So, they have not been clear operationally exact, exactly how

this is going to work. But what it means is this is going to be, you know, potentially a 100,

200, 300 trillion dollar market if they do it. And what that means is they want to be able to trade

all financial assets worldwide on a distributive ledger that can be turned into programmable money.

Now, if you talk to the people who are issuing stable coins now or working on the clarity act,

they say, Oh, we would never do that. That's CBDC. But in fact, if you look at the stable coin bill,

the genius act, it is set up and we have a big article about this on Salary. It is set up

so that all stable coin issuers have to plug into the treasury's pipe where the treasury applies.

It's know your customer money laundering and sanctions. And if you look at that pipe,

that pipe can be integrated with the full social credit system. So whereas CBDC applies the rules

through the central bank, the stable coin to apply the rules through the treasury. And so

if we are working with states, we have Salary has model legislation on stopping programmable

money from being misused. And what we are saying to the states is, look, before the horse leaves the

barn, you have to put the bridal in the saddle on the horse. And so states cannot law this. And

we're trying to get the states to make sure, because treasury saying, Oh, we would never do that.

Or the stable companies are saying, Oh, we would never do that. And we're saying, if you would

never do that, you don't mind if we pass a law that says you can't do that, right? Do they mind?

They don't seem to be enthusiastic about it. And one of the interesting things is the Clarity Act

has a provision that outlaws central bank digital currency. It's been thrown out of the Senate

version. Apparently they want to reserve the right of the central bank to do that. And apparently

congressmen have said that both in the NDA and another piece of legislation, the speaker speaker

Johnson has stopped their amendments to stop central bank digital currency. They said he promised

them that he would outlaw it. You know, the president had an executive order promised they

were believe they were promised that it would be turned into law. Johnson is blocked at both times.

So I'm deeply suspicious because if you look at what you can do with stable coins and digital

tokens and digital assets, you can implement all programmable money. But if you leave the authority

open to do CBDC at some point, the central banks can come along once the system has gotten going.

And so my attitude is, look, if you guys say you're not going to do this, we can outlaw it now.

Again, put the bridal and the, you know, the saddle on the horse before you leave the barn and the

barn. You know, if you end up with 250 trillion outstanding and you haven't put the bridal and

saddle on, you got a problem. What would be the effect if we wind up with digital programmable currency?

So if we wind up with a 100% digital system, no cash, no paper money. We're moving there fast.

We're moving there, although we're trying to slow down. So remember, if, you know, if millions of

Americans start using cash in size, it can absolutely revolutionize what happens. So I recommend it.

But if we move there, then if I want you to not be able to leave your home, your money won't

work if you leave your home. If I want you to only be able to eat certain foods, and if I

want you to be able to eat foods made within sex and not be able to buy real meat, your money won't

work to buy real meat. If I want you to take a vaccine a month and I mandate vaccines for you and

your family, if you don't, I'll turn off your money. So I have complete control of your food,

your health care, your spatial travel, everything. So you were no longer in a democracy or a democratic

republic. You were in a slavery system. If I want your kids to leave their home and go to a

boring school where I control their education, if you don't agree, I turn off your money.

Can I ask the dumbest question? Why would anybody in authority want that level of control? Why,

what's the impulse there? Why would you want to do that to people?

With that kind of control, I can bring out phenomenally powerful technology without worrying about

it being weaponized. So I can bring out breakthrough energy technology and not worry that I can't

control how it gets used. I can manage a large population in a world where technology is changing

without losing control. So I can, a small group of people can control the many.

And also, if I believe that with life science, I can live forever or for much longer lifetimes,

I can either depopulate or control people who are angry that I'm living to be 145 and they're not.

And I can basically keep them in check even though, so the mega-rich can live a very

different, luxurious life and control or shrink the rest of the population without fear because

they have complete control. So bottom line in a time of radical technological change, which we're

living through right now, the obvious, the first result is like societal chaos and revolutions and

wars. And that's why I got the Bolsheviks, et cetera, et cetera. The people pushing this technological

change or watching it from positions of authority know this and so the control grid would allow

the transition to whatever this technological future is without the downside of like a Bolshevik

revolution. So in my experience, the people who run the financial system are first and foremost

risk managers. They don't think in terms of making money. They print money out of thin air.

But they're very deeply careful about risk and they're very afraid of the guillotine. They're

very afraid of the crowd. They should be. They should be. But it's hard. It's hard to manage

people. And if you look at coming into the development of digital technology and globalization,

they had two choices. They could use this technology to build something that allowed explosive

new decentralized well to be created. At which point, how did they make sure they stay in control?

Especially because you have so much going on that secret. So how do you stay in control? And

can you create a bottom-up structure that will behave responsibly? And the hard part of

behaving responsibly is you as a manager of society have to turn the aircraft carrier before

you hit the iceberg. You don't trust the crowd to care until you hit the iceberg and then it's too

late. So you decide, okay, we need a meritocracy. We can't trust the people. Now I disagree with that.

But so that was the model I was working on when I was making all this software. So I was saying,

we can have a bottom-up structure that does the risk management, but builds the explosive wealth

and it can work. But then you don't have an Uber class. No, you don't.

But I think they decided, okay, the only way we find managing the general population very

frustrating and it's back to the red button story. We find them very hypocritical and irresponsible

and frustrating. We are very frustrated. We are just going to go to complete control. And they

had to choose one or the other. And so they chose complete control. The problem is once you get into

complete control, you get an Uber class of people who literally think of themselves as a different

species. And they may be actually, sorry, excuse me. I have my suspicions partly confirmed.

But anyway, but you're absolutely right. The attitudes change when you go from being in a

egalitarian society or at least society that sees a egalitarianism as the goal of Christian society

to something else, then the attitudes of the people in charge become so bad. I see it.

But here's what's interesting because I have had a very unique life. And so I've had the privilege

of living at the top in the middle and the bottom. And what's amazing when you go back and forth

between these different groups, the people at the top have no clue why the people at the bottom

are behaving the way they're being. It's just the ignorance between the different groups is

unbelievable. It's funny. I've spent my whole life in that group, but with, you know,

sojurns into other groups. And the people at the top, especially now more than ever, believe that

all criticism of them is hate. It's unreasonable. It's fundamentally unreasonable. They hate us because

they always hate us because they're hateful people. And that hate is basically envy because we're

so great. We're so successful. We're so smart that successful people are always hated because of

their success. So, you know, what's funny about that? It's like those divorces you see where like

one person is totally convinced it's the 100% the other person's fault. And you're like, no,

it's a marriage. It's both your fault. Well, but here's what's funny because, you know, I live in

the United States. I live in Hickory Valley, Tennessee. And I will tell you, I've said many times,

if I have to go down the river, I want to go with people from Hickory Valley, Tennessee instead of

Of course, I agree. There's a whole world of people who've got 180 IQ and Silicon Valley. And

they are stupid as attack because they float on it on rigged black budget and federal government

money. They have no insight into fundamental economics. That's why I love Massie because

Massie understands bottom up economics. And these we have such a huge, you know, we have

recycled brilliant people through universities and put them into places where they are so divorced

from fundamental economics or the math of time and money because they're floating on a sea of

black budget and government money. I completely agree. And it does have a corrosive effect on that

class. And then it reaches its kind of ugliest conclusion with the Epstein who like in addition to

everything else is like kind of dumb. I read EBS or a literate, certainly a literate. I mean,

I read his emails that I'm like, this guy wouldn't hire someone like that under any circumstances.

These are the people who are telling us they're geniuses and we're mad at them because they're so smart.

I don't think so. Well, but I think they think, you know, here's the thing. They think that many people

are stupid because they let them get away with it. You know, they there hasn't been the pushback.

And so they the more we allow it to go on, the less they respect. Now, I'll tell you something

is that such a deep point where you just said there was a magical moment when Pam Bondy was

testifying the attorney general was testifying on Epstein. And she said we should be talking about

the doubt being over 50,000. Let me correct you. She said over 50,000 dollars. Yeah.

So what does that mean? The doubt at 50,000 dollars. What she meant was. So I don't know if you

mean she doesn't know what the doubt is, right? I mean, like it's not 50,000 dollars, is it?

Right. Right. But I'd forgotten that she said dollars. But yeah. But here's what was magical about that.

So do you remember the red button story I told you about? Yeah. Okay. So she was basically saying

as long as we keep your 401k's up, we can do all this stuff. And it's okay with you because

historically, that is the truth. God bless her. The problem is, no, I'm not, you know, I feel,

I feel sad for Pam Bondy. I don't think she's thriving. I don't think she's happy. No, I'm not guessing.

But, you know, live by the doubt, die by the doubt. I mean, so if that's the, if that's the measure,

if all things are okay in a bull market, then like, what is a bear market? What does that suggest?

Like, if that's, do you know what I mean? Right. But here, here's the message of what she brought up.

If people will allow you to poison and abuse and rape their children in exchange for keeping

their 401k's up, you have no reason to respect them. I agree. And I don't, I don't respect them.

So I'll say that I feel the same way. Right. So, so, and in that sense, we all got ourselves

into this mess together. I totally agree with that. I completely agree. I think that about China,

I think that about Epstein, there's a lot of, you know, hate toward this or that group. And it's like,

no, no, it's like a marriage. We're all implicated in this. Right. And here's the most frightening thing

that I find because, you know, it's one thing to be in your town and make a mess. It's another

thing to make a mess and not notice that the enemies at the gate. So if you look at how we've allowed

ourselves to fall behind in technology and in national security and in all the areas that matter

to be strong on the outside, you know, we've put ourselves, it's one thing to have a corrupt

leadership. It's another thing to have a corrupt incompetent leadership. And what I would say is

our leadership has not done, you know, if you disrespect the Hoi Poloi and you say, okay,

I want to be the elite and have total control, well, then you need to be competent at your job.

Right. And they're not. And the question is why? And I vehemently agree with you, I gave this

speech at dinner the other night to a bunch of people. You know, every society and history is run

by, you know, a tiny elite. Often they're foreigners, by the way, that's true now. And millions

of many different countries. Right. I mean, El Salvador is run by a Palestinian. Peru was run

by a Japanese guy. I mean, this is, you know, okay, that's not uncommon. And there's always a

Brahman class always. I'm not mad about any of that, actually. What makes the West so different,

the English-speaking countries is that their populations are all dying. So it does seem like

it's more than incompetence. It seems like hate to me, at least as measured by its results.

Right. Right. So there is definitely a targeting and a destruction of that.

That's the way it seems to me. It's like, okay, so you're in charge. We make a bunch of money,

you get the most of it because you're in charge. That's corrupt, yes. But it's also just the rule.

I can live with that. But if you're trying to kill me, even as you're extracting the fruit of

my toil, then it's like, no, no, this is an undeclared war against me. That's what I perceive.

That war is on. But if you look at who's, who's implementing that war, they don't have a culture

and ethic or a Mandarin class that can go the distance. I agree with that. So I mean, can you flesh

that a little bit? Yes. That ruling class isn't designed to survive and thrive. Is that what you're

saying? They're going to fail. I'm sure they're going to fail. Now, I don't underestimate the damage

they can do before they fail. But one thing I will say about China, if there's an argument for China's

success, it is because it has a Mandarin class and it has a tradition of hundreds of years of

that Mandarin class. And that's what you need. The reason I left Washington in 1998 and I said

I'm out, these guys are going to fail. Whether it's the group destroying the

R equivalent of the Mandarin class or the Mandarin class itself, they did not have a culture and

ethic of vision that could go the distance. They weren't good to build an advanced civilization.

They didn't have what it took. What an interesting observation. So what does a successful ruling class

have? What is the culture that we don't have that China does? It has a culture, it has a commitment

to the long term. So it has a long term arc and it has the discipline to achieve that by keeping

each and making each individual sovereign with integrity, but discipline to the vision and the order.

So it doesn't let the power go to its head. I'll never forget when I first went to Washington,

I had been trained my whole life to deal with massive amounts of financial power

without letting it go to my head. And you got to Washington and you could look around the room

and you could see the people who also had that training. They knew this was not their money or

their credit. It belonged to the country and they were there as a fiduciary for a temporary

period of time to manage it. And they took the time to understand the laws and the rules and to

collaborate with other people to do so. You got other people who were there didn't have that

background or training and suddenly it's my money, it's my portfolio, it goes to their head and they

literally, you know, they get drunk on power and they can't handle it. It's like looking

in an electrical system that can handle that voltage and they, you know, they melt out.

It burns the house down. It burns the house down. And what you had, you've gone through a

process in Washington where I saw all the people who had been trained the way I had been trained

who got pushed out because they wouldn't break the law and they wouldn't do stupid things and

they got pushed out and you just got yes men, yes men, yes men. And now you've got something that

has no, it doesn't have a culture that can handle the voltage. So I feel like you see this even now.

I noticed this during the trans thing, you know, I felt like our leaders were pushing the trans

gender lunacy on everybody. Right. But then I noticed that their own children probably in higher

proportion were also falling prey to it. Same with drugs. Right. They push drugs in the population

but they're kids O.D. too. Right. So it's like, hmm, they kind of believe these lies. It's not

just an effort to genocide the population, which it is as well. Well, because you're not talking

about the top guys, you're talking about the sort of the middle, the implement. Right. So yeah,

they're in the trans too. And everybody's thinking they're a genius, you know, because they're

where does this go over the next 10 years? You know, something we are, we are in a very interesting

position. I said it to the salary team at the beginning of the year, our motto for this year

is rock and roll, because the disruption is not only so chaotic and unpredictable, you know,

it's impossible to predict it, because when you have, if you go back and you look at when

information technology innovates dramatically, like, you know, the telephone or the telegraph,

what happens is you not only dramatically improve the or speed up the innovation in each area,

but the connections and integration between areas and ways that, you know, it's beyond our.

You couldn't anticipate. You can't anticipate. You can't predict it. And, um, and so if you look at

this speed of change, it's, but I think if you look at every group I watch, you know, geopolitically

or financially, events are going to outrun us all and they're going to surprise us all. And so

we're going into an out of control situation. Now, the, the people who run, in my experience,

the people who run the financial system always have a plan BCD and have thought things ahead.

How they're going to manage this? I don't know. So how does the average person respond to it?

With faith. With faith. Yeah. Faith in faith. So I believe, so I told you I was going to give you

some homework. So here's my welcome. Here's my favorite new book. It's called, and we're just

about to publish an amazing interview with, with the author. It's called a new science of heaven

by Robert Temple. Okay. And it's about plasma. Our annual wrap up is, and we'll send you a copy

is on plasma. I'm writing it down. Okay. Now 99% of the universe is made up of plasma. And if you

go back, I confess, I don't do it. Plasma. Don't ask me to explain it. Oh, it's about 90% of the

universe. 99. 99%. And if you go back and listen to people like David Baum, the great physicist,

they would sort of intimate this, but Temple, Dr. Robert Temple, has now written a book that

really goes through all the science of it. And what Temple says is that plasma is alive and

intelligent. Okay. Which brings all new meaning to the notion of he lives. What he's saying is

the universe is alive and intelligent. Now, I throughout my history and it's clear. I feel that,

don't you? It is true. I'm sure it's true. It's yeah. The universe is alive. The universe is

intelligent. You know, whether it's the plants, the animals, the people, we share intelligence.

And it's not through our brain. It's through our whole body, through our energy, everything.

So anyway, but the new science of heaven is really about plasma and how it's alive and intelligent.

Now, what I'm going to tell you, I don't care how much programmable money you have,

how many biometrics you have, how many digital IDs you have, how many drones, you know,

DOD is going to buy a million drones a year. How many drones you have flying overhead? I don't care.

There's no way you can control the entire universe. Do you know what I mean? And if you understand

what what Temple and bomb in these guys are saying about how the universe works,

it's out of control. Now, what you can do is you can interact with it, with love and

intention and integrity. You know, but it's out of control. And I absolutely believe that. And

that's why I think this whole digital control model is going to fail. I just want to make sure.

You're describing the tarot Babel. You're describing like the limits of human power

and forces and technology, technology. It just if you understand life, the whole thing is nuts.

Now, if you if you look at the leadership, I can absolutely because they're hyper materialists,

I can absolutely believe that they would think they can control it. And I can understand

as risk managers why you might want to. What's a hyper materialist? A hyper materialist is

somebody. So if you and I were going to make a taxonomy of all knowledge in our world,

there is knowledge that relates to things that we can see. So this table or this wall or this

painting, you know, it's real. We can see it. It's concrete. Okay. So there's a material world.

But then there's a whole world that's invisibly either because it's spiritual or it may be material,

but it's like the Wi-Fi in the room. We can't see it. So there's a whole part of our reality,

whether it's what I call the morphogenic field, so shared intelligence or your energetic body

or my energetic body or, you know, or the Wi-Fi in the room, whether it's material or spiritual,

there's a whole world that's invisible. And what you see in sort of in the American culture

and my lifetime is people become more and more focused on what they can see that's material.

The only invisible thing they relate to is money. You know, money isn't invisible, finances

and so money is their God. Only a hyper materialist could allow money to become their God,

because if you understand. But if it's the only invisible thing you believe in,

it's your God. But they don't know, they literally don't know how intelligence works

and how power works in the universe. They are completely ignorant of the real power lines

because they can't see the invisible. It's phenomenal. It's like walking around in a,

so imagine an orchestra trying to play music and everybody's in the dark and nobody can see the score.

That's what, and that's why it sounds like that. That's why it's so discordant.

Yeah, yeah, it's just completely. Stop it with the kettle drum. It's time for the strings.

So we have, you know, so we're very excited because we're doing this program called The Young

Builders. It's one of the reasons I'm in Florida. And one of our challenges is, can we help this

group of young people to get a good enough map of both the visible and the invisible so that they

can, you know, they have a balanced map and can live a balanced life and access the power to be

accessed from, you know, from really understanding and seeing the invisible and knowing that it's

very real and not falling prey to being a hyper materialist. What are the power lines that you just

described? So our freedom comes to us by divine authority. And if you look at what, you know,

there's one of my favorite scriptures in the Bible is the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

And one of the things I've learned in my life is that, you know, so I was an investment advisor.

And all my clients would show up and say, we want you to help us use our money to keep them safe.

And what I would tell you is in this kind of environment, with this kind of change,

you can only be safe if you have spiritual protection. If you have spiritual intelligence,

if you have spiritual authority. And if you can relate with other people in a way that you can

build relationships of trust, and that kind of integrity and trust is invisible.

You know, but if you look at what can indoor during periods like this, that's what indoors. That's

what you can. You know, Corinthian says, faith, hope, and charity. Those are the things that

endure that you can't lose. And they're real. It just takes many years of living and living

around people who do it to see that it's real. So I know you know what I mean by this.

I know exactly what you mean. And I agree so vehemently. I wish I was as articulate as you were.

Well, but I literally had experiences where I was going to be dead in five seconds.

And a miracle happened. And it saved me. And it was, it was, you know, so I used to always say,

I had one amazing deposition where I had a major spiritual protection and experience. It was one

of the most amazing experiences my life. It's happened on several occasions. And I said to,

you know, I call the people who, you know, so I'm assuming it's angels or guardians or whatever

you want to call it. And I said, I call them the guys with the blue light. And I said, don't worry

about protecting yourself against the bad guys. Worry about getting in good with the guys with

the blue light. So yes. Yeah. If you, if you just, you know, there's not enough time to do all

that risk management events. The bad guys, if you just focus your energy on getting in good with

the good guys, you will get protected. I think this is like the gospel, basically. Yeah.

So it's, I took, I once, I, you know, when the litigation began, I took a full one year Bible

course, which was one of the most amazing courses I ever took in my life because the teachers were

fantastic. And it was riveting. It was on Monday night after work. And I, when I first got there,

there were like 200 people and I thought, this is never going to last. Nobody in Washington's going

to show up on Monday night again and again during the winter. Every week it got bigger. The class

grew because it was, the teaching was so amazing. But it really is all in the Bible. It's, it's amazing.

My favorite parable, I think is the, the guy who was a good, a good year with his crops,

so he builds new storehouses to store him. And then he finishes him, fills him full of crops and

says, I'm going to take a year off and just enjoy my bounty. And then he drops dead.

So you made reference a minute to go to art. And that you're just ran a piece on art,

appreciating art, loving art. Given your background in monetary policy, finance,

why are you commissioning pieces about art? What does art have to do with anything?

Okay, so I'm going to go way out and come back in. If you want to have a successful society

and a successful financial system, one of the most important questions in a financial system is

who or what enforces? You know, who makes the rules? Yes, the only way to have a sick,

a really successful financial system is to have enforcement done primarily by culture.

Yes. Okay. So the question, self-restraint, as opposed to restraint. Right. And respect for

the rules and respect, respect, you know, I am, I give you an example from Bible class.

I once had my teacher in Bible class ask me about the salary model. And I explained it to her,

and she said, Oh, you're making it much too complicated. It's in Leviticus. It says,

we have to take care of ourselves. We have to take care of the land and we have to take care of

each other. And I said, that's it. There you go. So she was right. But that's an example of

enforcement by culture. The obligation that I have to take care of myself, but I also have to

take care of the land and the people around me. Okay. So, so that's an example of enforcement

by culture. Anyway, so, so I decided, okay, at the Salary Report, we have to do something to help

build the culture. And I brought you the coming clean book and that is a sort of overview of all

the things we think are important. If you want to build a culture that will do a really good

job of taking care of yourself, but in a way that takes care of others and the land. So, so,

but I was thinking, okay, what can we do with the Salary Report to help people really

understand and relate to culture. So, I was out in California and I had a dear friend, Nina Hein,

who had just left this big high-power job as publicity of one of the studios. And I said to her,

she was thinking about, what do I do next? And I said, if you could do anything you wanted, what would

you do? And she said, I would travel the world going to museums and writing about it. And I said,

you're hired. So, she started a column called Food for the Soul. And she started writing these

columns. We would pay her budget to go travel the world and see the museum. She has a, she's Polish,

and so she has an apartment in Warsaw and goes back and forth between Europe and California.

And she started writing these columns and it turns out Nina is absolutely brilliant. I mean,

just off the charts brilliant and understands the economic and the history of all the different

archies writing about in the periods. And these columns are absolutely fascinating. And we started

to write it. And after a couple years, all these sort of major periodicals started to do the same

thing. Nina would get very upset. She said, they're copying me. And I said, that's a compliment,

Nina. That's great. Anyway, so it grew and grew. And what happened is the Salary team would start

going to the museums with her when she was in town. So, you know, when she came to the,

she came to Europe when we were celebrating the Year of Da Vinci in 2019. I'm a huge Da Vinci fan.

And so we, the Reichs Museum in Amsterdam had all the Rembrandts. And then we went to all the

things in Italy and then to the Louvre for Da Vinci. And the Salary team started coming. And then

their wives started, or husband started coming. And, you know, we all started going with her.

And so we started doing interviews about art and why it was relevant or why Da Vinci was relevant

or why Vermeer was relevant or the golden age of the Dutch painter. So we have a, you know,

we have a company in the Netherlands. Anyway, it grew and grew. And finally, we said, let's,

we did a wrap up called Visions of Freedom, which she wrote of all the art that that inspired

freedom and talked about freedom and encouraged freedom. And that was very, very successful. And so

we decided now we would roll it up into loving art. And the young builder, she's teaching one of

the courses for the young builders because we think art is incredibly important to encourage

and culture and helping people, you know, sort of connect to both the material and the non-material.

Anyway, so what is the bridge, right? I mean, that's, it's one of, you know, I love music too. So

every week we have a music of the week on the Salary Report. I think music is a bridge.

But I think art is a bridge. She, because of her history and the movie industry, she also is

one of the people who votes for the Academy Awards. So she sees everything. And she's very good at

tipping us off to what movies we want to show if, if art can edify an uplift to culture,

it can also degrade and fracture a culture, I would think. So very famous story. I had a dear friend

in Washington who ran the Confederate Museum. And he was giving a speech on Southern culture

of the Smithsonian and right in the middle of some young man stood up and said, why should I

care about any of this? And John Edward said, young man, culture is the integration of the divine

in everyday life. And I later said to him, I came back and I said, John Edward, you forgot to warn

me, it could also be the integration of the demonic in everyday life, right? And that's, if you

read Come and Clean, the critical issue is, are you doing everything you can to remove the demonic

from your everyday life and integrate the divine in your everyday life? And the more people who do

that, by doing that, I protect myself and my family. And as I detox the evil from my life, I deny

the evil, the energy and the food I'm giving it, which helps everybody else. Well, that's my favorite

principle ever. So it just to reduce it to its tritist form, change starts with you.

The power we have, I'm not saying that the political mechanism isn't an opportunity to make

change because I think an election year it is. The greatest power we have is how we use our time,

how we use our attention and how we use our money in our daily lives. And if we will revolutionize

that by coming clean, think of this as a detox. If you will get, you know, I call the system,

the centralizing system, the tapeworm. If you will get the tapeworm out of your life, not only will

you get stronger, but you will help everybody else get stronger because you're denying the energy

to the tapeworm. So what kind of daily rituals make that work? So the first thing you do is you start

with faith because everybody's different. And so if you read Come and Clean, and I should say it's

up on our website. It's public. Anybody can get the PDF. Everybody's different. And so it's very

important that you apply the mathematics of your time and money in a way which is energizing for

you. It's got to be practical. But the first thing you can start to do, for example, and I'll talk

money because that's my love. You can use cash, okay? And you can stop shop. You can stop using the

banks. So if you're banking with one of the big banks that created the great financial crisis,

that's an opportunity for you to get your money out of those. But you can bank with a bank that

didn't cause the good financial right and is helping your local community, you know, be successful.

So they're good banks and they're bad banks. You can shift your money into a good bank.

You cannot shop with the companies that are basically, you know, building the control grid.

And you cannot finance them. If you look at most people's 401ks right now, they're very over

concentrated in seven to 10 stocks that are basically making money by building the control grid.

Now, you know, many, many years ago, I was an investment advisor and I changed my company to

investment screen. And we were very quiet about it because I wanted to make sure that we could

find plenty of companies that are not engaged in what I would call systemic organized crime or

building the control grid. There are hundreds of them. There are hundreds of great companies that

are just doing the work of the world and are not engaged in organized crime. You can invest in

them. You can invest in local farmers to get your food. You know, there are many different things

you can do. But you can make sure your time and money is going to support the things that are

good for you. One of the most important is health. So if you look at what bankruptcy families in

America, it's poor health. And that comes from poor nutrition. And from getting involved in the

medical system in a way that's unhealthy for you. And what I used to find when I was an investment

advisor is people would tell me, you know, who were millionaires and had a fortune. They would

tell me, I can't afford biodynamic or organic food. I was like, you can't not afford that. You

know, you're crazy. If you if you have millions of dollars in your brokerage account and you were

eating cheap food, you know, you're making a terrible financial decision. Anyway, so if you they're

25 items and coming clean and you can go through all of them. But they're all about whether it's your

time, your money. One of them, of course, is getting good intelligence. So if they're watching

Tucker Girls and they already know what to do. But I can't tell you how many times I had clients

who would watch the major networks and just, you know, they would have a bad map of the world and

make terrible mistakes because they weren't getting good intelligence. I know very smart, very

successful people who have no idea what's happening. Right. So can I I've interrupted you like a

hundred times during this conversation, but it's just so many interesting places to pause.

Information and the means by which it's disseminated and we consume it, like it's worth a period

of real openness right now because the old media have collapsed. How long can that last

where you can say whatever you think on the internet and read other people's unfiltered views

on the internet? That's such a challenge to power that I'm skeptical. It can last for much longer.

So if you look at the infrastructure that's being put into place. So DOD says that they're

going to buy a million drones a year. If you look at the what has been, I don't know if you saw

the latest testimony about ICE, whistleblower claiming that he was trained to teach ICE agents how

to break the law. So if you look at the drones, if you look at the what's happening with the local

control grid with the flat cameras, the satellites, everything, they're looking to put into place the

hardware where they can shut down free speech. Now, are we going to let it go into place? If you look

at the pushback, the pushback is extraordinary. And so it's not clear to me that they'll succeed

to do that. I don't know, but I will tell you now if we don't push back hard now and keep pushing

back, they will shut down free speech. They'll shut down. Well, the control grid will shut down

the first amendment, the second amendment and rip the constitution of shreds. It seems like

the reason that everyone you run into at this point is like reassessing all previous assumptions

is because you can read whatever you want now online. It does seem like that has been the pivotal

change in the last 10 years. Nobody watches CNN. Everyone reads X and that makes the difference.

Well, I think what happened, I think most people, so I call it this way, if I have a computer

and I have 50 databases and you bring me a database that says I've got to change my operating

system, that's too hard because I've got to change 50 databases and everything. I think

when you a friend of mine used to call it getting hit by the smite button, when the system betrays

you in a way that it's very harmful to you, whether because you're injured by pharmaceuticals or

the medical system or your money is stolen in the financial crisis, when the system does something

that really harms you, it forces you to change your operating system. And I think the pandemic,

I think the financial crisis harmed a lot of people, but then the pandemic really harmed a lot of

people. That's right. And I will tell you, Tucker, we were warning people from the beginning,

don't take the shot, don't take the shot, don't take the shot. And then at the end of 2022,

I were big Wim Hof fans, you know who Wim Hof is in another one. So we're here to Wim Hof fans.

Yeah, we're pro Northern Europe in my house, yes, of course. So at the end of 2022, Wim Hof had

just published the Wim Hof method. And I said to, I sent an email to everybody at Christmas time and

I said, if you've been harmed by COVID, let us know. And we will send you a free copy of the Wim Hof

method because we think this can really help. And we ended up giving away 250 copies because we

would get these letters, they would write in and they would say what had happened to them as a result

of the lockdowns and losing their job or the shot. Tucker, I'm not a sentimental person. I would

personally, here's reading these stories. It was so horrible. And we just kept buying books and

giving them away because, you know, I would get these letters that say, this is the first time anybody

has done anything nice to me for three years, you know, and it was so helpful to people. And

you know, Wim Hof is such a loving presence in people's lives and he makes you laugh and he

and the method really helps. So we just kept getting more books and giving them away because it was

so horrible. And I think the pandemic shifted a lot of people because they realized

our leaders not only don't care about us, they are absolutely willing to kill us.

Yeah, I think they, you know, it imbues them with the feeling of God-like strength.

They like it. Yeah, people love killing. I mean, that's what they always have. That's why they

continue to do it. They pretend they don't love it, but they do love it. And I know people who do it.

And they love it. Yeah, but I have to tell you that, you know, if you look at the joy that comes

from that kind of power, if you look at the joy that I've created in life, it's so much more

powerful. I couldn't agree more. Right. Last question. You got to plug into that and visible

to discover it and use it and know it. Yeah, God creates Satan destroys this really simple,

but you know, pick God's team. You said at the outset of this year, I think a lot of people

approached it with trepidation feeling like, ooh, the foundations are definitely trembling.

In the West, do you approach it with like excitement? You said rock and roll with you. Rock and roll.

So what, what's that? Why are you optimistic at ever else's panicked?

This is the year of the fire horse in Chinese New Year. So we're right in Chinese New Year now.

It's the year of the fire horse. And the fire horse is a symbol of great change, but it's great

strength. So I just bought a new mug that's the fire horse mug from, you know, one of these

British porcelain companies makes beautiful China. But so I live in Friesland and the Netherlands

in the North and the horses of the Friesgenhorses that the beautiful black stallions. So every year in

La Ward now is up with Michael Yan and his wife Musako in, in La Warden for the, for the Friesgenh

stallion show. And these horses are just beautiful. So that's my image for this year because

I was with Michael Yan at the Friesgenhors stallion show. No, you know, I missed that one.

Put it on your bucket list. Most, these horses are the most beautiful horses in the world. And

it's an amazing, amazing show. It's every January in La Warden. I will take you.

I'm so conventional. I think of myself as free thinking. I didn't even think about the Friesgenh

stallion show. Oh, well, but, but the Friesgenhs are, you know, these are the horses that

knights would ride. They're chargers. They're, you know, they have huge hearts. They're very

powerful. And, and that's the energy you have to go into this year because remember,

if the, if the world is alive and intelligent with, you know, if it's a plasma world,

then we have to attract to us the energy we need to build. Everything's thrown up. And now we

have to build it. We have to create it. That's why we're calling the young builders builders.

You know, everything's being thrown up in the air. And the question is, what will you build?

So, I love it. Catherine Austin Fitz, thank you very much.

God bless you. God bless you.