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0:00Propel Fitness Water With Gatorade Electrolites, Zero Sugar, and Vitamins, Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolites. I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox on a botch alignem toxin A prevents headaches and adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. A lurcher doctor right away is difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. A lurchic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease,

1:00myasthenia Gravis or Lambert Eaton Syndrome, and medications, including botch alignem toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit BotoxCronicMyGreen.com or call 1-800-44 Botox to learn more. Visible puts unlimited 5G data in hotspot in the palm of your hand, powered by Verizon's 5G network, with no contract holding you back. And for a limited time, you can get visible for just $19 a month for 12 months when you use promo code Save6. All the features of Big Wireless Service, for half the cost. Tap the banner to switch today. Terms apply, standard rate applies at month 13, see visible.com for plan features and network management details. Hello there, pray.com listener. I'm Terry and it's great to have you here with us on CC Podcasts. We're here to share the truth of God's Word and proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. Please visit our profile and click that follow button

2:02to keep up with us right here at pray.com or jump over to our website, ccpodcasts.com to download our free mobile app. There you can access thousands of episodes of our Christ-centered Bible-based content. On today's episode, you'll be hearing a selection from each of our three types of content. First, you'll hear Matt Research share one of our briefs daily dose devotions, where we'll working through an overview of the entire Bible. Second, Pastor Tim Budker will share a 16 to 18-minute sermon from the CC Podcast, which has been airing on the radio weekly since 1936. And third, you'll hear an inspiring interview with an interesting Christian from our CC podcast Conversations. Before we get going, why don't I say a quick prayer? God, thank you for loving us enough to send your son, Jesus Christ, to save us. I pray that you would speak through the content, wind up for today, so that people would be encouraged and inspired by you and your word, amen. Okay, here's Matt Rees,

3:02sir executive director of CC Podcasts with our daily dose devotion. Today we're gonna be in John Chapter 11, who's 38th and 44th. This is gonna be our fourth and final devotion on the narrative covering the resurrection of Lazarus. And in fact, today's text will include Lazarus' resurrection. So before we go any further, I wanna thank the family leader for being our 2023 daily dose devotion sponsor. You can learn more about the family leader and the announcements at the end of this devotion. And as always, thank you to the family leader for their support. So in yesterday's text, we talked about Jesus weeping and the significance of that shortest verse of the Bible. Let's continue on in verse 38. Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, take away the stone. Now I wanna stop right there and refer to something I said in yesterday's devotion. I asked the question, why did Jesus weep? Or in the case of this text that we just read, why was he deeply moved again? And I gave a few specific reasons

4:03that he may have wept or been deeply moved. And we generally know, but we don't know specifically what it was that moved him. And I learned something since recording that last devotion that could be added to the list of reasons that Jesus may have wept or been deeply moved. And these first two verses that we read of today's text remind me of it. It said he was deeply moved again. He came to the tomb. The tomb was a cave. There was a stone that lay against it. And Jesus said, take away the stone. Another reason that Jesus may have wept in addition to those presented yesterday might have had something to do with him being filled with a deep sense of awe at the power of God regarding what he's gonna do with Lazarus. And even more what he knows that God is gonna do with him. I mean, imagine this. Jesus is approaching a tomb where a dead man lays. There's even a stone in front of this tomb. Very similar to the tomb that he's gonna be in in just a short while. It might be that being in this setting, Jesus is touched in a deep way by what God is able to do. Not just that he's gonna raise his friend Lazarus,

5:05but that he himself is gonna be raised. And the significance of that resurrection has cosmic ramifications. When Jesus rises, sin will be defeated forever. Death will be defeated forever. The power of Satan and the spiritual forces of darkness will be defeated forever. And here, just a couple short months, maybe a few short weeks before his own resurrection, he gets to be part of this event with Lazarus that for shadows what's gonna happen and highlights the power of God. So his tears or his being deeply moved may have been out of a place of awe. Let's continue. After Jesus said, take away the stone. Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, Lord, by this time there will be an odor for he has been dead for four days. Jesus said to her, did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God? So they took away the stone and Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around that they may believe that you sent me. I think that's an interesting comment by Jesus.

6:06He didn't say what he said to God to tell God something God didn't know. He said what he said to God so that the people around would hear him speak to God in that way. And when Lazarus is raised, they would believe that he and the Father are one, that he is from the Father, that he is the Messiah. It makes me wonder how many things that are said in scripture by Jesus were actually said for the people around who were observing and listening. Even the people who would read these narratives 2000 years later like you and I. That's pretty cool. Verse 43, when he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, Lazarus, come out. The man who had died came out. His hands and feet bound with linen strips and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, unbind him and let him go. And there it is, the resurrection of Lazarus. Now I did a little bit of research and discovered that there are six miracles of Jesus recorded in the book of John prior to his raising Lazarus. And I'm talking about miracles where Jesus does something miraculous or supernatural. I'm not referring to something like in John 2

7:06when it says that Jesus knows what is in a man, which could be considered as miraculous or in John 4 when Jesus talks to the woman at the well and knows that she's been married five times and that the man she's living with now is not her husband. That could be considered miraculous because he knows something supernatural that wasn't told him by the woman. I'm not talking about that kind of stuff. I'm talking about actual miracles. In John 2 we saw Jesus turn water into wine at the wedding in Cana. In John 4 he healed an official son. In John 5 he healed an invalid at Bethesda. John 6, he fed 5,000 plus women and children. He also walked on water in John 6. In John 9 he healed a man born blind and now in John 11. He is put on display not just his ability to overpower the natural world, not just his ability to heal someone who's sick or blind, but to raise a guy who's been dead for four days. As we're gonna see in the text that follows this, this raises quite a stir. Jesus is not a circus side show. He's not some kind of magician. This is a guy who has claimed over and over

8:08to be from the Father, to be one with the Father, to be the only way to the Father and now you got him raised in dead people. The line is drawn more clearly and starkly than it has been before. It's becoming harder and harder for the Jewish people around him and the observers of these things to take a middle road with regard to Jesus. You're gonna either be all in or all out. I guess an application for us today is to be reminded that we have no justification for being in the middle either. If based on the claims and the track record of Jesus, you and I can't be all in, then we might as well be all out. So it's a good time for some self-reflection. What does all in look like for you and me? Come back for more next time. Thanks for tuning in and have a great day. Hi, I'm Andrew Nordstrom, technical director for the CC podcast. Thanks for listening here on Pray.com. Please visit our profile and follow us right here or head over to ccpodcast.com where we've archived thousands of episodes with our content and you can access our free mobile app.

9:11Next we're going to hear a sermon from Pastor Tim Bucker who preaches on our weekly radio program, the CC broadcast, which has been on the air since 1936. Thanks for tuning in and may God richly bless you. As Paul continues to describe the grace of God given to us and all that it does for us, it just unfolds before us in all of its beauty. Paul has been describing how through Christ we have now come out from under the law and we're under grace. God's unmerited favor, just his good grace and gifts and mercy to us, his kindness to us in so many ways through the forgiving of our sin through Jesus and then adopting us into his eternal family, born again, not of the flesh, not of the will of man, but born of the Spirit of God. And then we're now serving not in a compelling way

10:11but serving in a new way under the power of the Spirit. Romans 7, verse 6 says, we're released from the law, having died to that which held us captive so that we serve in a new way of the Spirit. This is the Spirit of Christ, the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead. We don't serve in an old way of the written code. What God has done is he's given us an entirely new nature in Jesus. When we place our faith in Jesus, we're born again and the old part of us is put away, put to death on the cross and a new part of us, a very new core in our nature is born of the Spirit of God that gives us new desires and new power to want to live the way God designed us to live. And now Paul is gonna get very honest in Romans 7 about the battle we experience moving from the old nature to the new nature. The old nature is sometimes described as our flesh and it's not just the physical desires

11:13but it's the desires of our soul that pull us away from God. And that part of us has been crucified with Christ but we're living now theologians, the study of God, those who study this say we're living now in an era between the now and the not yet that as we're being born into these new people in the power of Christ, that process will continue to happen this side of heaven until the day we die and we shed this what is referred to as a body of death and then we receive a new resurrected body and will be completely free from the flesh. But for now God has empowered us with a new nature, with new power that has new desires and these desires start to wage war against the old desires, the desires of our flesh. And this is very honest Christianity. What Paul is saying here is that he struggles and he describes this struggle as a war.

12:14He says it this way, I find this law at work although I want to do good evil or wrong is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law. I want to do that's the new nature. I want to serve God, I want to live right, I want to be honored by Him, I want to be blessed by Him. But he says I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind that wants to do right. And this law is making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. Now what's happening here is this tug of war inside of a person once they're given the new nature of the power of Christ. It wages war against our old nature and that tension is constantly there and we're constantly deciding are we gonna move upward towards heaven's way or downward towards hell's way. It can be described as a battle between a lot of think godliness and sinfulness, heaven or hell, right or wrong. It's like now there's two motors in us.

13:15God has put a new motor in us that wants us to fly. It wants us to soar with Him. It wants us to experience the supernatural, victorious life and the old motor, the sinful motor, is still in us and it wants us to sink. It wants to drive us downward. It literally wants to drown us. So you could picture yourself as a boat with one engine that could help you fly and another engine that wants to drive you under the water. And it's not neutral friends, whichever engine gets the most power, gets the most attention, gets fed the most, that engine, fueled the strongest is gonna win. And this is the battle of the Christian life internally and Paul is being so honest about it. So often in Christian communities we don't get to the level of honesty that the Bible is exposing right here about what we really struggle with. I wanna give you a simple example today from my life and see if you can relate.

14:16In Romans seven, verse 18, Paul says, I have the desire to do what is right, to do what is good. A number of years ago, after growing up eating whatever I wanted for many years, lots of pizza, lots of fast food, lots of pop, I decided after learning from my wife more about health and nutrition and wellness and all of this and how what we eat affects our attitude and our spirit and our body in so many different ways. I decided it was right to eat more clean, to eat more in the way God designed us to eat, to eat more vegetables and fruits and clean proteins and drink more water. And that was my desire. I mean, it was just welling up in me. I wanted to feel better. I wanted to feel more energy. I wanted to sleep better. I wanted to feel more whole and not just sluggish because I was eating so much junk. And so that desire was born in me and I would discipline myself to do it.

15:16And I ate well for some time. But so often, what would happen to me is I'd be walking through a mall somewhere, passing by the candy bars at the checkout counter or driving by one of my old favorite restaurants like Taco Bell or Hardies or something. And I'd get this fleshy urge to return to my old ways just maybe have just one cookie, her one small potato o'lays from Taco Bell. And of course, I'd do that. I'd have a cookie and it would taste so good, I would think, well, a second one, probably not gonna hurt too much. And you know the slope and you start to feed that and you make excuses and then all of a sudden your flesh is winning again. And you wanna eat right. You really wanna do it right. But there's this other law working me that just pulls me downward into bad decisions and friends, this happens on so many fronts.

16:18I mean, I can't even describe to you how much this battle ensues in people's hearts around so many issues. Consider the issue of greed. You wanna live a contented life. You wanna be gracious and generous in life. And you want God's blessing in what we do. But the Bible says greed is idolatry and the whole culture feeds us messages about wanting more. And then all of a sudden get rich, quick opportunities come or the opportunity to seize something comes and greed wells up within us. And it pulls us away and can capture our heart in this war-thin ensues. Should I go after temporary things or should I trust God with my life? Should I raise up to heaven's way or should I pursue after guarding myself and taking care of myself in life? Considered the issues of sensuality when God has told us to live lives of purity before him, but constantly around us, there are temptations that come.

17:18Central temptations, we've mentioned food already, but there's sexual temptations. There's lustful temptations for slothfulness, for over-recreating and wasting our lives away. And all of these things pull us away from the life that is truly life if they capture our flesh and get ahold of us. And so there's this challenge within us now, how to live the full life and the tug of war towards doing it God's way and being blessed by him and full of the spirit of life and peace and joy and hope. And being captured by the things of the flesh that lure us and they wage war against each other. Paul says, I have the desire to do what is good. That's part of my new nature. The Holy Spirit is stirring that in me. I want to live a pure holy life before God and just the freedom and joy of that. But I cannot carry it out. He says, I do not do the good I want to do, but the wrong I do not want to do this I keep doing.

18:19Can you feel this in your soul, friends? Millions and millions of self-help books are sold to try and solve this problem. As a matter of fact, there are counselors and any kind of counselor will talk about this hidden self, this secret self that we have around that we have to get ahold of and master with the Bible says, self-help is not gonna help us, friends. We need more help than what we ourselves can provide. Listen further to Paul's honesty here. I find this law at work. Although I want to do good, wrong evil is right there with me. In my inner being, I delight in God's law. That's what God has stirred in me. But I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a mess I am. What a wretched man I am. You know, all of us have this, friends, and we don't talk about it openly, but we have this inner self that wages war against God's way

19:23and God has asked us to be open and honest with him about it. And as he exposes this in us and lets us see it for what it is, it's designed, this war is designed to do something in us. It's designed to drive us to him, to cry out to him so that we might get his power. More of it, more of his grace, more of his spirit, working in us so that we could be more and more victorious in this challenge, in this war, in this battle. So what does Paul say? As he comes to this point, as I can't do it myself, he says, what a mess I am, what a wretched man I am. Who will rescue me from this body of death? And then he says this, thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let me summarize this for you, friends. Paul is saying here, outside of Christ, you and I are under the law.

20:24We're judged by all of God's perfect standards and we all fall short and we have no ability to measure up, to do them all right, to live into God's law in a perfect way. And so God sent his son to pay the penalty for us of our violations of God's law. He went to the cross on our behalf and he took our sin there in the punishment for our sin, the wage of sin is death. He took our sin there on the cross. And as we put our faith in him, he absorbs the penalty for our sin and even starts to have our own flesh crucified there with him and done away with. And the moment we believe we're born again into the family of God in a supernatural way and God places his spirit within us, to awaken in us a new nature that now wants to please him, desires to please him and even now has the power to please him. But our old self before heaven is still there,

21:26waging war against the new nature. Even though it's been crucified with Christ, it's still flailing around in us, it still presents its desires, it still has its own strength to it. And we have to weaken that by denying our flesh and fixing our minds on the things of the spirit. And as we do this, then we can be more and more victorious in the power of the spirit. But this war is there and we find this war work within us. And it should drive us deeper and deeper into dependence upon Jesus because he's the only one who can ultimately give us the power and strength to overcome that pole towards sin, that pole towards hell, that pole towards wrong. And if we surrender more and more to Jesus and we humble ourselves before him, what does the scripture say? As we draw near to him, he draws near to us. He opposes the proud, but he gives more and more grace to the humble

22:28and his grace will empower us through the work of his spirit to be victorious. Paul, as he's driven into... Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade Electrolites, Zero Sugar and Vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolites. Chronic Migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life. Botox, on a botulinum toxin A, prevents headaches and adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. A lurcher doctor right away is difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. A lurchic reactions can include rash,

23:30welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lugeric's disease, myasthenia, gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxCronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44 Botox to learn more. Visible puts unlimited 5G data in hotspot in the palm of your hand, powered by Verizon's 5G network, with no contract holding you back. And for a limited time, you can get visible for just $19 a month for 12 months when you use promo code Save6. All the features of big wireless service, for half the cost. Tap the banner to switch today. In terms of apply, standard rate applies at month 13. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. Seeing the depth of his sinfulness as who will save me from this body of death, and then his thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ, our Lord,

24:31and how does he do this? He puts a new nature within us, which has new desires, and then he stirs in us by the power of his spirit, the same spirit that resurrected Christ from the dead, that spirit to give us the strength to live right before him. And this is the process of sanctification, friends, being made more and more clean before God, as we approach heaven. And of course, we'll not fully arrive before we transfer from this life into the next, but we're called to continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling before him, be cooperative with his spirit. And that's where Paul is heading now in the Romans 8, as he describes this process of change in the new nature and the battle that exists. Now he's gonna start coaching us up on how to live in the strength of the new nature. And all of this comes to us through Jesus, friends.

25:32What he said in John 15 is so true. Apart from me, you can do nothing. I mean, we can do a lot of things in the world in our flesh, but nothing in the spirit, apart from the work of God and the power of his spirit, bringing it about in us. Friends, I hope you're grasping this. You've been given, if you're a believer in Christ, you've been given a new nature that quickens you to want to please God. And we have to cooperate with him over the course of our lives to become more and more pure and holy before him in how we live. And if you've never opened your heart to Christ, friends, I mean, this is our great hope. This is not only the diagnosis of the human problem, but it's also the answer to the human problem. And that is the power of Christ working in our hearts to cleanse us and purify us and heal us and strengthen us to do exactly what he designed us to do.

26:36Let's pray together, Father, thank you. For opening up your word to us through the revelation of your spirit. Give us ears to hear and eyes to see what you're saying to us today about being made new in you through faith in Jesus Christ. It is in his name we pray. Amen. That was Pastor Tim Butler, the radio preacher for the CC broadcast, one of our four podcasts. If you enjoyed Pastor Tim's message, you might want to check out our newest podcast, Homer Larson Live. This new podcast features a series of passionate, biblically based messages delivered by Pastor Homer Larson between 1953 and 2006. Live from the pulpit at Nazareth Lutheran Church in Cedar Falls, Iowa. Pastor Larson also preached until 2014 here at the CC broadcast. And you can hear many of those episodes on our website or wherever you listen to podcasts by searching for the CC broadcast. Before I get you to more great content,

27:36I want to remind you about our profile here at Pray.com. If you haven't already, go check it out and follow us. You can also visit our website, ccpodcasts.com, where we've archived thousands of episodes of content and where you can find a link to our free mobile app that's ccpodcasts.com, ccpodcasts.com. Next we'll be listening to our executive director, Matt Reister, as he conducts an interview on another of our podcasts, the CC podcast conversations, inspiring interviews with interesting Christians. Hey everybody, Matt Reister with the CC podcast, and I am at the Federated Fellowship Bible Conference, Mark. This is your first one ever. inaugural. inaugural. I'm here at a conference, we're excited. Which implies a second, a third. That's the prayer. 103rd. 103rd? Well, we've some catching up to do. But we're excited. So, you guys have left a great template for us. Tell us how this whole thing was born. So, really this is a vision or a brainchild

28:39of our senior pastor, Joel Reich. And so, for as long as I've only been a pastor here for a year, I've been in a tender for 10 years here at Federated. And for the entirety of that time, our pastors, and even some of our elders, make an appointment to attend a pastor's conference, or just something to get fed. And then the old saying, if you want to feed people, you have to be fed yourself. And so they've been just very diligent in doing that. And just really in the last couple of years, coming back from some great conference experiences elsewhere, they've just felt a nudge from the spirit. Hey, we need to provide something like that here for lay people in South Central Iowa, because nothing like that exists, at least in our neck of the woods. And so that's why we're here. It's weekend. You feel good about it? We do. I mean, I'd say for your first time, and out here in Pella, you got 50, 60s plus people. I think we had, yeah, but low 60s registration, and I think we've had just over 70 walk in the door. I think that's great. Yeah. I mean, that's hard to do even in Cedar Falls, which has got more population.

29:39Yeah, I mean, we're like, I mean, the Pella area is only 10,000 people. So it's something we have a giant population to draw from, but it's great. That's great. So we've got a guest here, Mike Wagner. Mike, thanks for being with us. Glad to be here. So I'm already curious. You said you used to be in radio. What'd you do? I was just chocky. Yeah. Like what kind of music? I'm just a cool thing to do. What kind of music? Well, I got my radio operator's license, so it goes way, way back because you had to have one. And it was two channels in FMAM station. The FM station was back to back radio, Christian Broadcasting. OK. So think back to the Bible and Haven of Rest and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, good old days. And then the FM station was beautiful music. And then we did kind of have to sync them up for the news at the top of the hour. I thought you were going to say something cool, like classic rock or country. I didn't do that. But when I was in college, I worked for KBHL, which was one of the first contemporary Christian readers. Oh, that's awesome. So it's part of how I got through college. Where was that at? In Lincoln, Nebraska.

30:39Huskers? Yes, of all things. So I mean, the Hawkeyes. Are you a football fan? Oh, yes, of course. OK. Well, all we got to do is grow corn and play football there. So one of these days, the worm's going to turn. And I was going to be on the butt kicking end of the equation sooner than you imagine. Well, I'd like to. I'm not an optimism. Give me a last two decades. We always hope for the best. Yeah, yeah. So Mike, what are you doing here, like at this conference? Oh, when I poor security let me end. We need to improve on that. Hi. I did a breakout session on disciple making. Some of the practices that I've been able to be part of at our church and some of the application that comes out of second Timothy. So that's what I talked about today in the breakout session. And you run an organization, a group of business. Yeah, I started a business 20 years ago called the White Rabbit Group. So White Rabbit Group. Tell me about that. It's just a, you picked a good title or a good name because it

31:40just kind of makes go, what's that? Yeah, I could have called it Wagner consulting for that. Just been one more smart ally who thinks you know it's everything. Now it's a smart ally who thinks you know it's everything, but it's shrouded under our cute title. Yeah, well, I'll get you all back. You know what we, you know, one of the things that's true in general is that if you do something that's out that ordinary gets people to ask. Yeah. And a White Rabbit gets people to ask almost all the time. So what's, where did you get the name? What's it about? And so that opens up the door for us to talk about it. So what are you about? Well, my son and I are part of this group. We started it together. And we developed leadership systems for companies and our focus in terms of leadership is on the space between leaders and their direct reports. And it turns out that if you can improve the relationship between managers, supervisors, leaders and the people that report to them, people stay longer. So there's good retention. They're more engaged and they're more productive.

32:41And so companies engage us because they want to improve retention, engagement and productivity. So you get to work with your son? I do. It's amazing. That's awesome. Never would have anticipated it, but it worked out that way. So it's great. And you're still based in Lincoln? Oh, no. I'm in Iowa, in Des Moines, Iowa. And my son is based in Colorado because he likes to ride bicycles up and down mountains. And doesn't matter in this day and age where there is. So he's there. Yeah, that's great. So one thing that's intriguing about your bio is you were a pastor for a long time. Yeah, I'm an accidental business guy. So I started off in the ministry. So tell us about that. So the reason I even went to college was because I had a college scholarship play football. No one in my family had ever gone to school. We're at university up Nebraska is where I finished. But I started at Shadron State, which is a small state college. Danny Wood had played there. So somebody who's held people with Danny. Don BB would be another one, my more modern generation. Yeah, Bill's right. Yeah, yeah.

33:42BB was a stud. Little slot receiver was. And I think he later on became a Congressman. Did he? Yeah. Yeah, I'd Oklahoma, I believe. Anyhow, so my early experience was I went to college just because football, yeah. And then ended up liking history in classical Greek. And then my friends said, hey, how many football players are in the history in classical Greek? One of my history professors found out I was on the football team. He didn't even know it. And he said, I'm really disappointed in you, Mr. Wagner, because he thought, what a waste. So that's a compliment. Yeah, I totally remember. He says, man, I'm really disappointed you're a jog. Yeah. So that was pretty fun. I loved it. So yeah, I ended up getting a master's degree from Dallas, the Lenskull Seminary. Pastored for about 14 years, mostly in Nebraska. Most of the time. Did you cross paths with Haddon Robbins in it, Dallas? Yes, I did. He taught my homilocks course. And I just interviewed Tori.

34:42Yeah, we've talked a little bit about that. His son, who is at this conference, Haddon Robbins was a regular at the Cedar Falls Bible conference, which is where I kind of cut my teeth on appreciating and learning what good preaching was. And now that I understand who he was and how good he was, I'm like, why did the Lord have him in Cedar Falls Iowa every three years at this conference? Phenomenal preacher. Yeah. I cannot imagine I've got his textbook. I can't imagine what it would have been like to sit in his homilocks class. But I mean, it was great. I mean, it was all new. It was things that I didn't ever, I'd never heard before. And the emphasis, he did all the homilocks lectures. The real terror though was the labs, where you would preach kind of a mini sermon. And it was like listening to a golf tournament on TV. So in one ear, you would hear your message that you're preaching. And then in the other ear, you would hear the homilocks professor giving you feedback in real time.

35:43While you're preaching? Well, after you come in after having preaches, so it was recorded. And you come in this. It'd be things like, I don't think you believe what you're saying. You're on your heels leaning back. Oh, but they're giving you, they're like recording this while you're preaching. Right. So you could just turn down or sermon. That's wild. And listen to their commentary. That is wild. It was great. I loved it. And I didn't love it. So yeah. So yeah, it was like these whisperings on the 19th of, you know, eight years. So it was that kind of thing. And you were just, it was great. It was a good way to learn. So you're fully expecting a full life career in ministry at that point. And then, so what happened after seminary? Well, the biggest, biggest thing was that my mom and dad died pretty close to each other in time. OK. And it really affected me. And I just didn't have the emotional wherewith all the continued pastry. And so I asked myself, what can I do if I don't do this?

36:46I was the oldest of three boys. And it was just something that really hit me. And so I asked my brother, this guy, so what do you think I could do that people would pay for? And they said, well, you have no marketable skills. So no one needs homework translated. So that's kind of out the window. So my youngest brother said, go work for Saturn. So I ended up working for Saturn, the car company in the 90s. And ended up doing training, especially sales training. Is that kind of when they first started? So they started in 1990. I was in the mid 90s when we got there. It was great. And it was a tremendous first experience in the marketplace. After that, I ended up, I was a little baseball game and watched my son play ball. And one of the owners of a startup web development company said, what do you do? And I told him. And he said, we're really good at what we do. We're really bad at telling people about it. Could you join our team? So I joined a company that had about six or seven people.

37:48And I found out how bad business presentations really are. Death by PowerPoints are real thing. And because Hayden Robinson and others like him had taught us never to bore people with the truth. Yeah. I used the things I'd learned at Dow Seminary. And it just took off. And so I ended up speaking around the country on how to build internet business models. Wells Fargo was a client of mine, AOL time Warner was a client of mine. And not because I really knew more, but just because I knew how to explain it to people. Yeah. And so they could actually act on it. So Mark, how did you get connected to Mike? What's that source? I was just telling him when I was opening his session here in the morning to break out, I was telling the audience, how does Mike know our church, right? And really, it's because Mike reached out. I think it was a year or two before COVID, as a cold LinkedIn message of all things. And so I noticed, I did not know Mike from Adam at the time, but I looked at his profile. I was like, oh, we did similar work at the time. So before I became a pastor,

38:49I spent a decade in talent development or learning in development, which is right up what Mike's firm does. I was like, oh, a guy who does this. And then Mike had noticed on my bio that part of my educational background is my 700 degrees in historical theology. And there's only so many nerds out there. And so he's like, oh, it's somebody like me. And we do the same thing for a living. And so he reached out and I think we met for Coffee or Lunch one day. And it would've been a, not only just a collegial partnership, but even a friendship since then. So now we sit down, I don't know how, it's four or five months and have lunch or coffee and talk about business, talk about life, talk about ministry, and it's great, because Mike understands all of those worlds that I've lived in. We do long-form lunches. Just like a long-form podcast. We're deeply committed eating. Yes. So they go 90 minutes. You got to go through a buffet. And you can get a way to keep wondering how to get rid of this. So all you can eat, they said. I mean, yeah. So one of the things Mark told me about you, Mike,

39:50in your business is that you're taking, obviously, and you mentioned one example of this, something you learned at seminary from, had Robinson about, don't bore people with this truth. So like make, make marketable things interesting. But what are other ways that you've incorporated your faith in the marketplace? And how's that going? Well, because we focus on the relationship between leaders and direct reports, one thing that's really been remarkable is just to, and this was an original with me. Other people have seen this, other commentators have seen this. But if you look at the way leaders are presented in the scriptures, there's always two components to every great leadership story. One has to do with the challenge. I want you to liberate my people from Egypt. So there's that challenge. I want you to make disciples of all the nations. That's that challenge. So there's always a immense challenge. But correspondingly, there's always a promise of presence and support. And I'll be with you always, even to the ends of the world.

40:51And so when you look at that, we actually see that as kind of the biblical leadership operating system, if you will. And it helps us explain to people why people are leaving their organizations. They may give them a great challenge, but there's no relational connection. So they feel like they're stressed out and surviving barely. And so they said, I choose not to live this way. And so we're helping companies kind of look at a biblical model of diagnostics and say, we need to be both challenging and supportive at the same time. How do we build connection with our team, with our employees? And that's really where we get a lot of biblical conversations going. How do you walk the line? And this would apply to a lot of people in our audience, I think. How do you walk the line of being a Christ follower who, really, you're calling as a kingdom calling? But you're in environments where you can't necessarily wear that on your sleeve, maybe unless you're invited into it.

41:51I'm sure that White Rabbit Group doesn't, you know, on the front of your web page say, the great commission is this verse, therefore we started this business to use marketplace to reach the world for Christ. So what kind of, what have you learned about how to be effective in the marketplace as a Christian and intentional kingdom-minded Christian? You know, wise is serpents, foolish, innocent as dubs, type stuff. Yeah, it's true. Part of it is that right now in the marketplace, people are so struggling and broken, relationally. The effects of our overall society show up in these businesses and corporations that when you introduce wisdom, people ask, where did you get that? Wow. Where did you get that? Where, what's going on there? So it's a kind of a natural opportunity that arises from having something that is so biblically relevant and so satisfying to people that, for example, one of the big things I teach and train

42:53is how to have conversations with other people. And the brothers laugh and say, you get paid to tell people how to talk to one another. Yeah, because they can't talk to one another. And if they can't do that, they can't collaborate. And if they can't collaborate, they can't do complex things. And that's what business is about. And it's just something. I want to stop there a second. Is this something that has been going on for a while? Or there's a version of this that I'm hearing from people and I'm noticing myself among younger generations. I'm trying to think where we just were. My daughter. My daughter is a junior in high school. She just took a job at a little local cafe bar and happy. Oh, sure. You've been there. And the owner of it is a good friend of ours. And she's just like, man, we got to get these, especially when they hire young people. We need people who can actually, like, if you can talk to an adult, you get the job, basically. And so is this phenomenon of teaching people how to talk something that we've needed help with for the last 100 years?

43:53Or is it especially exacerbated right now, this issue? Well, it's easy to say that it's more amplified, you know, essentially. Yeah. And in part, I think that's true. I mean, social media. For example, I was in December. I was teaching a class. I had 14 leaders. And we had breaks. And we had lunch. There's 14 leaders trying to learn how to lead their teams. And at breaks and at lunch, they're picking up their phones. And every one of them literally is looking at their phone. Yep. And these are all people who have the same struggles, could learn from one another. Yeah. Because how do you deal with this when this happens? They weren't doing any of that. So we live in a society where the devices are designed to optimize attention, but not connection. And what's scary to me about that, and my wife, hopefully she doesn't hear this, could she be like, I've been trying to tell you this. But I see us. I mean, and we're trying to be, A, we're not digital natives.

44:54B, we really are people who value real life interaction. C, we're trying to have impact for the kingdom. Yet I see us being drawn to our phone. I mean, and so it's like a lot. It's like in our house, rather than having conversations as a family, here we are. And so it's like, man, we're trying to be intentionally not that way, and we're still being that way. So what's it like for the people who aren't trying to intentionally not be that way? And what's it doing to, I mean, our relationships, our society, but corporations? Yeah. So for example, one of the measurable impacts is that a ton of rework is happening. That is people thinking they know what they were supposed to deliver and not delivering it. So rework is costing, I had one client that was costing millions

45:54of dollars. Wow. Because people weren't hearing each other. So they're going off and doing something. No, that's not what I asked for. Back and forth. Wow. So you have a lot of internal waste and rework going on. And then when it comes to client relationships, you have a lot of escalations. Why did you have Wagner work with me? Didn't listen. Didn't understand anything. And now we spent a million dollars with him. We still haven't got what we wanted. So escalations of clients, we're unhappy. So rework and escalations are, well, that's a measurable problem. And it comes from not being able to collaborate and talk and listen and solve problems together. Yeah. It's how I make a living. Mark, you've been in that environment as a trainer. I mean, how does any of this resonate with you? I mean, Mike and I agree on a lot, which is fun. So on a good day. On a good day, we agree on a lot. And I mean, I would wholeheartedly echo everything he's saying. I told people when I was in that line of work,

46:55people ask you what you did for a living. And I'm learning in development, especially, it's like, what does that mean? And so I tell him, all of those lessons your kindergarten teacher taught you about how to interact with your classmates. I reteach those two adults. And that's a very simplified and almost almost right description. I mean, to me, it blows my mind that that's actually a thing. Absolutely. Well, I mean, you think about the society we live in today too, whether you know, I don't care what your background is. If you're a member of a church, or you've never stepped foot in church in your life, we have an ethical deficit in our workplaces, right? And so we're having to reteach or sometimes teach for the first time how are you to operate with your fellow man or woman in a workplace setting? And that seems ludicrous, but until you work in corporate America for 20 years. Can either of you give an example, like what's a real life example from the corporate workplace where people don't know how to communicate? And how it, like I'm talking about getting the weeds

47:57a little bit? Well, I mean, one for example is that there's a basic business model called SAS, which is Cloud-based software. And Cloud-based software makes perfect sense. You build a software model in the Cloud. And the client company comes to you and says, we want your software. But the whole idea behind this is that you can configure the software to meet your needs. So that means there's a client facing team for the company that made the software talking to a client team, and they're supposed to tell each other what I need, what reports I wanted to generate. An example from a client of mine, they were looking at using a Cloud-based software called Salesforce. And in order to do that, there's a company called an integrator that comes in and works with you and helps you configure Salesforce to do what you wanted to do it.

48:57To do. Well, they ended up actually walking away from a million dollar engagement of the client company that was working with Salesforce because they knew this was going to be a disaster. Wow. They knew it was going to be a disaster. This integrator, these people are not hearing what we're saying. They don't fully grasp what we're trying to achieve with the software. We're not going to spend them. They walked away from this. And they'd already spent like a million on it. So this is the kind of insanity that happens when people just can't talk to one another. Well, I would have added that examples, even on a more basic level, how do you operate in a conference room when you're having a meeting together? What does that look like? And I use the example sometimes when I teach, back when I used to teach soft skills classes and business. And even now when I'm teaching Bible classes once in a while in the church, I'll say, I don't talk to my 12 year old digital native son or communicate with him the same way I communicate with my one living grandparent still.

49:58I'm never going to text her. Because that's not a mechanism by which she can listen. I'm going to use a different communication medium. And that's a very simple way of explaining. There's a lot more to it than that. It's like, are you taking into account their personality? When you're interacting with this person, are you taking into account their personal history? Scar tissue they've had from the past and your organization, just their preferences, likes and dislikes. And most organizations never allow space for their employees to get to know each other on that level. And so you're just constantly flying by each other and miscommunicating because you never have a basis of a relationship for communication. And that's incredibly costly. I tell people, if you'd sit down, I used to advocate for what we called partnering meetings in organizations. So you're going to have this new teammate or maybe even a new boss or new employee and sitting down for an hour over lunch and asking really simple questions like, hey, what excites you in the morning? What task has a boss given you before that you couldn't stand?

50:59What's one thing I would do that would make you leave? What's the best way to interrupt you in the course of your work day? And I've known people who work together for 10 years who never know the answer to those questions. Yeah, interesting. Mark's still right, I mean. And that's why sometimes you get these amazing survey results. Like Harvard Business did one where one third of the respondent said, I would forego a pay race if you would fire my boss. Wow. And when I speak, let's say I speak to 100 people. So I'll often share some of these stats in terms of 50% of the reason why people leave is who they report to. So I share that in a maybe a room of 100 people. I'm going to have people literally raise their hand when I say that. And let me tell you about my story. They'll volunteer my story about why they just couldn't talk to one another. And Mark's right, I mean, as believers in Christ, we have spiritual resources that may be an unbelieving world just simply can't access. When we look at people, we see a macodeil. We see the image of God and people.

52:01We see people who deserve honor and are valuable in and of who they're themselves. And they don't. Yeah. Wow. And we understand time and reflection as opposed to reaction. If you look at some of these folks, I mean, their schedules is they're continually booked in meetings constantly. And lots of times overbooked. I talked to colleagues that are saying, well, I have three meetings at this hour. And I usually have to choose which of the three I'm going to go to. So they're flying by each other's. You said that. Absolutely. Totally. And think about how many examples there are in scripture, Mike, of just God pushing the pause people for people. You talk about Jonah in your session. God, OK, sitting at the fish for three days. Yeah, that's the pause button. That's the pause button. I think of Elijah after the incident with Jezebel. I'm thinking of the, I mean, how many times Jesus was interrupted. Going on his way here, kind of the pause button gets pushed in a different way. Like you're going to, Jesus showing us,

53:02you're going to interact with these people I put right in front of you rather than get about whatever you're doing. Well, there's a lesson in how to deal with interruption. Right. Right. And the opportunity of interruption sometimes. Let me turn the corner on this, because we're kind of touching on it a little bit. You just did a breakout session called Calling Reluctant Disciple Makers. Yeah. What's that about? So the last five years have been working with men in disappointing and our church has been trying to be very intentional about that. So I've had a lot of good lessons, a lot of game film if you so. You learn a lot when you get to do it. And so what I did today was I took some of the things I've seen and some of the things I've experienced working with guys over the last five years and mapped it on to second Timothy. And Paul successfully took a reluctant disciple maker. And Timothy? Yes. And got him to engage and worth the glad he did. We wouldn't be sitting here probably if he didn't, became a reproductive model that spans the centuries.

54:06So what can we learn from second Timothy on how to animate somebody and get them moving and keep them on mission, so to speak? Or get them on mission for the first time. What does disciple making look like or mean to you? Well, it's a team sport. So no one meeting, no one group, no one anything makes that happen. But for us, it usually means sitting down with guys, building relationship in an intimate setting, not in a large group setting. So two or three guys sitting at a grocery store, restaurant at 6am in the morning, in my case, going through a book of the Bible, like Gospel of Mark, and teaching them how to read the scriptures, teaching them how to observe and do basic Bible study so that they can get something out of it. That is true to the intention of the author, but the same time is relevant to their lives. And so that's what it means for us right now. That's what I'm doing a lot of.

55:06That's cool. I'm going to shift gears for a second. And then maybe we'll come back to whatever. So one of the things I appreciate about Mike is, again, he's had his foot in two worlds, which I appreciate just ministry and just the marketplace and for a number of years in both. And so I want to ask you, so I love art church has a ministry here called Young Professionals, which is really just a connection and fellowship ministry for folks. I would say just out of school to, let's say, early 30s. And every once in a while, they invite me to come teach, which I'm honored by. There's an old guy that they're going to listen to Pastor Mark, but I'll go into it. And I love just how engaged they all are. They're all on the edge of their seat as you just teach them the Bible, which is really fun. And in fact, they actually came up with a list of questions. But they're asking in life that they would like biblical answers to. Can you give a couple examples? So examples like, and it's across the board, Matt. So it's everything from, I had one person ask about, what is God's will versus my will map out to my life?

56:11What part do I play, even in the matters of salvation? Is it all God? And I don't get a choice, or do I have to choose? Or what does that look like? Things you wrestle with, theologically. Things that are very practical, like, hey, how do I, in trying to interpret God's will for my life, whether it's who I date, or what job I take, or what city I live in, how do I know whether it's God's leading, or the spirit's leading, and stuff like that? And things like, and even things, practically, like, what is the Christian's role in the public sphere in politics? What sort of citizen should I be given what I see on the news every day? Great questions. They're asking. So I want to lob one of those to Mike, right, around here. Another one, actually, Mike, that you'll like. Incoming. Another question. I won't answer this one, but you'll enjoy this one, Mike, is one of them asked, what happened in church history between the book of Acts and the Reformation? Oh, wow. It was like 1,500 years. There's a lot of fun stuff in there that a lot of people just don't know. We don't teach in school, or even in Bible school sometimes. But the one I want to lob to you, Mike, is, you know,

57:11just in general, so you're speaking to, let's say, a 22 to 25-year-old Russian their career there. They want to do well, right? They want to honor a God in their faith, right? They want to be a good churchman or churchwoman, OK? And if the opportunity presents itself, they even want to witness in the workplace, right? What advice would you give them? And on any of those, that's like four questions in the end. But what advice would you give? And so as someone who's, I mean, most of our careers are behind us, you and me now, at least the majority, like, you know, lessons we've learned along the way, Joe. Well, you know, the first thing that came to mind is a statement from Steve Martin's autobiography, oh boy. The comedian. I like Steve Martin. Yeah, I do too. I love Steve Martin. You're young people listening. That's right. You're going to have to Google this, because you know, you don't know who that is. But Steve Martin said the key for him was to be so good they can't ignore you. Interesting. And I think that is to be such a committed follower

58:16of Christ, bring excellence and elite performance to everything you do and be good to people and honoring to people. Now, this seems like, OK, pie in the sky. I'll give you a real practical example. One thing I teach people to do is to use polite language. And you would think, well, OK, it is an incredible attention-gitter when you use polite language. One of my favorite illustrations, I walk into a fast food place at night one time. And I was actually, I think, was an RV or something like that. And the manager was actually taking orders. And I make my order. And I say, may I have one of your Ruben sandwiches? And he just hit pause for him. He just, like, a deer in the headlights, cow looking at a new fence and a new door and a new gate. He was just like, and then a big smile came over his face.

59:17And he said, well, yes, you may. And when he brought me my meal, it was like a dollar. And I said, there's a mistake here. He says, no, not for people like you. Wow, wow. And so I ended up getting a meal for a dollar. And all that did was it just stunned them into silence and attention. And that was just because you're an image bear. You are made an image of a God. And you have value. And I want you to be treated that way. I'm just going to use some polite language. And it just caused a tension. Being a person in the marketplace that knows how to speak, speak with wisdom, to speak thoughtfully, to slow down. And yes, to use mayi and other elements like this is a differentiator. It's a total differentiator. You would be stunned at the vulgar language in the meetings

1:00:17I sometimes attend. I mean, it's stunning. I played linebacker in college. So I have heard some of these things. Yeah. I'm just stunning. So that's it. For sure. That's a recommended. When I would just add to that, too, I think you're spot on. I would say people who have the ability to consistently be kind and have fun with their coworkers, sometimes people will even overlook some of your lack of competency if you just have those qualities. Yes. Yes. And one other that comes to mind that I often use. So the Midwestern, deutiful statement is how you're doing. So this happens that the convenience store and everything. So how you're doing? I actually happened this morning on the way over here back up in Des Moines. How you doing? I'm thankful. It's stunning. And the lady in the back who's doing the books heard that and the guy at the cashier. And she said, that's a great way to be.

1:01:18Yeah. Why? And I said, well, because I know who made the day. Yeah. And the door opened. Yeah. Just gratitude and fun. And being able to delight in the world? I 100% agree with that. But I want to ask kind of a follow up to that. So there's that famous quote. I think it's attributed St. Francis of Assisi out and off he said it or not. Preach always use words only when necessary. There is this, especially I think in even American evangelicalism, that I want to be able to check the box of proclaiming the gospel only with the way I live, never with my words. And so how would you coach people to say, do what I just said, be good enough that they can't ignore you? But then you touched on it a second ago, when the door opened, then you go through it. Yeah. Paul says that in Colossians at the end of the chapter four.

1:02:18I think I want my language to be salty and attractive. Yeah. So that's out totally valid. But today we're in second Timothy four. Preach the word be ready in season and out of season. I think my understanding of the language, the vocabulary that Paul is using, he's saying be ready to preach the word when it's convenient and when it's not convenient. And so there's no getting away from the verbal communication of the gospel. You got to be ready. You got to be looking. And you sometimes have to kind of blow up an opportunity. Like there's a ditch on both sides, right? And one ditch is lifestyle evangelism only. Never a word. And then there's the other style, which is it doesn't count unless I give them the four spiritual laws or whatever. Yeah, I sit them down. And so somehow we got to be discerning. And one of the things that I mean, I'm going further down this rabbit hole than I intended. But one of the things that the church has struggled with

1:03:19is we try to formulate that. We try to, because the thing is, is when you throw those ditches along with my personality, which is different than yours, along with my network and where I kind of rub shoulders with people in the context of all that, along with my, the passages of scripture that have impacted me over my life versus yours, we're very, very different. And there are some general principles we can abide by. But there's not a formula. And I've been with organizations that are over in this ditch or over in this ditch. I've been in those ditches myself. Yeah, if you're trying to have impact in the marketplace. And I wonder what Mark thinks about this, because a lot of what I've really come to appreciate is what I would call rapid recognition skills. Rapidly recognize the moment and act accordingly. Recognize the different kind of personality.

1:04:20Oh, you're not like the 14-year-old that I was just talking to. Rapid recognition skills. And that, to me, is the core skill. I know the message and the core message, but I have to rapidly recognize what is the environment I am. I'm a fan of, for example, a thing a jet fighter pilot created called the Oedaloo. You know the Oedaloo? I don't think I do. I went to University of Iowa, so that's that going for him. His name is Boyd. He's passed away now. But he was an expert at helping fighter pilots win dog fights. Wow. And he taught them this record recognition model called O-O-D-A, the Oedaloo. And just recently, Jamie, who's the guy who's the CEO of... Diamond? Jamie Diamond. Jamie Diamond. There's an article for some magazine just did it on it. He uses the Oedaloo to lead chase.

1:05:20Wow. And JP Morgan Chase. And so the Oedaloo is observed, then orientate, decide and act. And that is...it's a wonderful skill that you only get good at by doing it over and over again. It's like a quarterback reading a defense. Yeah. Just see it over and over and over again. Okay, that's covered too. I see it. Yeah. Well, it's the same thing. Learning as Christians to observe, orientate, decide and act, so that in the moment we can deliver the grace of Christ in the gospel of Christ. And it's such unique every time. I mean, we can't predict it. There may be some patterns. Yeah, like cover two. Yeah, right. Or whatever. Well, they're trying to disguise it, but I see what the... Propel Fitness Water. With Gatorade Electrolites, Zero Sugar and Vitamins, Propel hydrates better than water. To help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolites. I get so many headaches every month.

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1:07:28And for a limited time, you can get visible for just $19 a month for 12 months when you use promo code Save6. All the features of Big Wireless Service for half the cost. Tap the banner to switch today. Terms apply, standard rate applies at month 13. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. This is? Yeah, so there's all kinds of, but we have to have that willingness to learn a rapid response technique as opposed to freezing in the moment and doing nothing. Or pulling out our hammer and just pounding on people. Yeah, or just doing a cookie cutter thing that applies maybe once out of every 10 times. And tools are helpful. We're not here to do that. I'm not an anti-tool. Tools are helpful, but are you flexible enough when the defense changes to tweak your tool? Well, so Mark, as a pastor who's been in the marketplace, and this is, I mean, I'm not a pastor. I'm not, I've been on staff in a church. One of the things that scares me away from church work or being a ministry pastor is how do we use the tools that are good without over emphasizing the tools so that people are incapable of doing the auto loop?

1:08:45Do you know what I mean? I think that's. And you're the pastor of discipleship. So you got to figure this crap out. I think it comes down to what's called. So Mike and I work with a lot of software guys. I used to be, so this is my third career, my first 10 years were an IT. And so there's a concept called so sad. He just can't hold anything down. I can't hold anything down. I'm a decade at a time. It's all I can do. So there's a thing called test driven development. So basically what it means is you build software so that's going to pass a test. Right. And so yeah, well, a lot of people build software because we don't have this feature. It's like, no, I want it to be able to pass a test. Will it do this if I input this? Right. Basically, it's another way of saying begin with the end in mind. Okay. And so I think when it comes to that, as Christians, as we're using either a discipleship tool or an evangelism tool or sort of thing, I think the church's responsibility there is how, what sort of application are you building into your preaching and discipleship? If 50% or more of our sermons or our discipleship time frames or cohorts, what are you going to call them,

1:09:48aren't focused in application? We're doing something wrong. And the reason I say that, look, read the scripture. The scripture is so application heavy. And I think that's where the disconnect happens. We focus too much, sometimes to our detriment, not that you don't want to focus on doctrine. I'm teaching a class on doctrine right now. But I tell people in our class, all good theology is practical theology. And so where does the rubber meet the road in our lives? And if you can't answer that for people, we haven't done our job as the church. I would add one other thing, just kind of a biblical metaphor that comes to mind, especially here in the Midwest. And that is back to the Oedalup. If I'm a farmer, I'm looking at the conditions. I'm going to check what's the soil condition. What's the insect population and what kind of insecticides or herbicides do I need to apply? What do I expect based on my best guess? Is this a 60 day corn or a 90 day corn?

1:10:49So I'm doing that. Do I make the corn grow? No. Right. I never make the corn grow. But I'm always paying attention with my observation orientation. But I know that God causes the increase. Yes. But I can't say, I always do the same thing every season no matter what. Because there's some variability there. Yeah. And I like the fact that God causes the corn to grow and the harvest to happen. But I play a part in it. And it's really the art of being testoral, right? It is. The sheep aren't the same to use another agriculture metaphor. The sheep aren't the same shape every day. No. So I mean, I'm going to leave my... Someone's coming from the crowd, someone from the crevice. Well, yeah, I'm going to leave my flock differently based upon whether the thunderstorms come or we're in a drought or this one's injured or this one's been through this. Exactly. Which, along with the odour, what it does is it says, I have to be dependent on Christ, not every once in a while, but all the time.

1:11:55I don't want to go out and shepherd my sheep. I don't want to go out and pastor today if you want help me, Lord. Yeah. Give me eyes to see, ears to hear. I don't know what I'm looking at. You do. I can't read hearts, but you can. I just can't do this without you. It's interesting. Let's see if I can get back to our marketplace analogies too. Mike, that's the same prayer that I hope anybody who's listening, who's a manager or the leader in the marketplace is praying. Yes. Over their team. God, give me eyes to see from the benefit of leaving my team. I worked for the Canadian arm of campus crusade for Christ as a US director for a digital strategy that they invented. It is confusing. It was great because I worked 1800 miles from my office and, you know, long leash. But it was cool to be part of that. But the reason I went to work for them is because I randomly met their president of the Canadian organization at a dinner and spent the evening talking with him.

1:12:56And he came out of the marketplace. Very successful, farmer, farm implement salesmen from Central Canada. And he was on the board and then they hired him to be the president because they loved what he brought to the board and all this stuff. But one of his concerns was, you know, crew, their hallmark is the four spiritual laws. That's why they referenced that earlier. And his concern was we have trained these kids, these crew people. You go do this beach project during spring break. And you go do these different things and you get, they have the four spiritual laws memorized. You know, exactly how to start a conversation. They know exactly how to get to the four spiritual laws. But the thing is, is like part of, I mean, one of his concerns is we talk a lot about Jesus as Savior. We don't talk a lot about Jesus as Lord. So is the Jesus we're introducing these people to, even the right Jesus? Yes. But second of all, like the four spiritual laws doesn't work every time.

1:14:00And I was just like, man, I hadn't been around crew. But I had seen that in churches. I'd seen that in ministries that I was part of. Another interesting part of this, navigators were a thing at the school that I went to in college. And my wife was very involved. They kind of came and grew right toward the end of my time. And my wife was there a year longer than me. So she really was plugged into a navigator group. And I mean, they're great on fundamentals, Bible, tools, memorization, all this stuff. And so my wife and I, she's very, very structured like that. She loves this stuff. And I love it too. I love the Bible. Okay, I'm not like dogging that out. But I'm a little more like, I'm going to just kind of like we came into this podcast like her. So we're just shooting from the hip. I'm like, yep, so we're just shooting from the hip. That's just how I am. Jen's way more structured. So you got people who are on these different spectrums. And so, you know, another kind of, Mark, maybe I'm thinking about you with discipleship. Another thing to consider is, well, Matt probably needs a little more structure.

1:15:04I need to be encouraged. Maybe. I need to be encouraged to. We've been praying. Yeah. To not because I, yeah. This isn't a podcast. This isn't an intervention. But it's like, I could be in my worst. I could say, I don't need any tools. I'll just wing this thing. And in my wife's very worst, she could say, all I need is tools. I could never weigh anything. And they're both kind of the wrong answer because they don't take the specific contextualization of a circumstance and respond to it in an effective way. I'll let Mike come in on that first. I have a comment. I'll let Mike talk first. Well, you know, that's where we introduce the maturity conversation. Yes, you are predisposed to be this way, whatever that is. Yeah. For example, I'm more open-ness, less structure, see what happens, that type of thing. Okay, that's a great thing. The immaturity shows up when someone says, you know, that's just how I am and you're going

1:16:05to have to deal with it. Yeah, yeah. I won't adjust. I won't make any difference. I won't add something. That's good. I would acquire a discipline that's not a natural thing for me. Yeah. I have got people that are hard-chargers take the ill people and they have a trail of bodies behind them. Yeah. And when they say, well, you know, tough, we just have to ship and make things happen around here. And if they can't handle it and can't move fast enough, well, tough, then they can find some place else to work. Yeah. So, you know what, you've burned through, you've got a trail of bodies here, no one wants to work here anymore. Right. So, that to me is an immaturity problem, not a wiring problem. Yeah. Your pre-disposition is great and God made you that way. Yeah. But we also have to grow up. That's good. I wonder what Mark might do. Well, I think our comments are probably two sides of the same coin. So, I would just say, and I'm going to speak to this from a church and discipleship standpoint. And I close down my session, you know, by just really inviting anybody who is stirred by what he said and wants to invest in the next generation of Christians who's a discipleship, you know, come talk to me. That's my job here at the church. Yeah. But I also shared, you know, in my first year of full-time ministry, the one area of my job that has consumed more of my time

1:17:10and my energy than I ever thought it would, is really Christian matchmaking. Who is the right person, disciple of this person, right? Yeah. And some of the things that I have to take into account, that again, I never thought would be this big a part of my job. And the big part of my prayer life is, okay, Matt isn't super structured, right? And so, on the one hand, maybe he could use a little bit of structure. And so, who of my disciples can give him, on the other hand, who of my disciples is so rigid, they can't account for my personality. I would never lose one second of my kids. They would kill each other. Yeah. And so, that's tough. That's important not only in a discipleship context, but again, in the marketplace with co-workers and subordinates and managers every day. Yeah. And these conversations are, if we just looked at the scriptures, we would say, oh, different strokes for different folks. Yeah. We would do it. Oh, so, uh, Nicodemus, a conversation with Nicodemus late at night versus the woman at the well in Samaria. Right. Wow, why is that so different?

1:18:10Oh, because Jesus recognizes they're not the same. Yeah. And our problems were not omniscient, right? We can't see into hearts. So that makes us dependent. That's very, yeah. Who are the two discerning or whatever term you want to use? Yeah. It was Mark. Didn't Mark and somebody have to part ways? Yes, in the gospel. Or Barnabas. Yeah. And who, who, who was that? Well, it comes full circle in Second Timothy, because he says, hey, bring Mark. He's now of use to me. Yeah. So, he's useless before. That's right. We, we, uh, we parted ways during the Second missionary journey, and he went with Barnabas, and I wasn't going to have anything to do. Yeah. Paul, it can depend on him, you know? So, Paul and Mark parted ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd forgotten who that was. Yeah, absolutely. But that's a, that's an interesting, that'd be an interesting study for anybody who's listening to this going. I wonder where I could go on scripture to, I mean, there's an example of... It's a reconciliation of what didn't work at first and now it works. And, and I think there are sometimes it's okay to just go, we're on the same mission.

1:19:10We're on the same mission. We're on the same cause, but we're just not... Yeah. Yeah, we don't need to call down lightning and thunder and fire on everybody that doesn't do it our way. Right, right. I mean, the disciples were kind of... We found this guy doing this. We decided to go, you know, call down fire on him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Mark, for you, um, we'll maybe kind of wrap up with this, but what has been, um, unless you've got anything else, go ahead. But... Kind of the moment, but maybe this will see something. Yeah. So, you know, with this being you guys' first Bible conference, and with you being relatively new out of the marketplace into ministry, I mean, what's the Lord doing just even these last 24 hours in you through what you've heard or seen? You know, there's a lot of... There's a lot of gratefulness. I'll be honest, man, I don't just be totally transparent to your listeners. This is being a first year, and we expected this, but I'm not sure I expect... This has been a hard conference to pull off. Um, just because we...

1:20:11Our church and our community at large, and I would dare to say maybe even the church at large, we don't have a lot of muscle memory for this sort of thing. Unlike Cedar Falls, where we give 103-year-old thing going on, that even... Even casual Christians, even non-Christians may be aware of, oh, there's this thing that's a conference, that's what they do. Yeah. We don't have... I mean, there's no background for that here. That's right. So, and then also, I would venture to say that, you know, although, you know, we live in a community that has like 40 churches in a town of 10,000, which is crazy. The reason we have... One of the reasons we have 40 churches historically is we're not the most ecumenically-minded people on the planet. Right, and so I'm really grateful. We have a pastor from another church here in town, Pastor Brian Cepher, from first reformed reader who's one of our attenders today, and we love partnering with him to serve college students and other people. But like, that's a rare dynamic unfortunate in our community. So, there's some... There's an uphill climb to pull this off, and if I was being honest, I was probably venting to my wife a little bit this week about some of my frustrations in approaching this weekend.

1:21:11Was my name ever mentioned? No. Okay, we were always thankful that you were coming back. Okay, good, good. You just let me know. No, no, no, no. Shoot straight with me. So, when you say, word marks mine said, I'm just... I sit here with a huge smile on my face today, just incredibly grateful for what God has done. And just it is as a pastor, it is always nice to just sit under God by teaching to be fed for a change. We obviously, a lot of our God is feeding God, doing that, and which is a joy and a privilege. But you've got to be fed once in a while yourself, and this has just been a lot of fun to be at. That's awesome. Yeah. Anything else? I think we covered a lot of... We covered a lot of grout. Mike, can I actually do? Yeah, Rob. Is there anything else you want to bring out of this, Mark? You know, one question. I just... I throw this out there because I appreciate Mike and his friendship so much, and just our discussions that we have. Mike, one of the things I love about Mike, he's one of the most well-read people I know, and we tend to read similar things. Not exactly, but similar things. And so, Mike, I will always just toss out to you. Every conversation we have, I do this.

1:22:11I ask Mike, you know, what are you reading, or do you have a reading recommendation for the listeners? Oh, wow. For the listeners. Well, I think the books that I recommended to you, I didn't show up in one of the elements you were trying to supply with the books to you. Right. Next year, we'll get that off. I think on Worship, Dr. Warren Wierspie's book, Real Worship, I consider... Wierspie, a very, very good book to refocus and reorientate towards true worship. So I think that says something we all could value. And spiritual disciplines, Don Wheatley's book, I think is very helpful, where it's accessible and it's very, very good introduction to the basic spiritual disciplines that have shaped and formed Christians for centuries. You said you're reading, you've got that Steve Martin book. So this brings up another question. Totally, I mean, we could just bat stuff around all day long.

1:23:12But my answers to, like, the first thing, first of all, I don't read that much. I listen to podcasts. Yeah. And I'm just not whatever. But my first honest answers to a, so what are you reading lately or what have you watched? It's usually secular stuff. And I mean, that's not... Sure. I don't feel bad about that. But I think some people would expect that all we do is sit around and read Christian books and read the Bible. So what other stuff outside of the Christian mainstream are you looking at? All quotes, you know, the Greek poets and exes. For sure. He apparently was reading... Familiar with Epicureans. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. Well, I just finished a biography of Tim Keller, and it's one of the things that books speaks to so well. Colin Hansen's biography, which I'd recommend to anybody who's listening, is just all of the non-Christian people that Keller read. And how that really sharpened the hologetic in his ministry is that he... And really just his street cred. Yeah. The workers is that he could reference people they were reading that weren't Christian.

1:24:14Totally. Totally. I think, I think, Cal Newport's book, Deep Work, I would highly recommend. He's a professor at Georgetown. And he addresses the intention and the ability to stay focused for long periods of time and do Deep Work. And he's very, very much a practitioner. He's going to show you how to do it. Wow. Yeah, Deep Work by Cal Newport is a very good one. He has a new book out on, I think, Deep Productivity. So that's his following book. Mark, you mentioned how reading some of this stuff sharpened Tim Keller. Yeah. And what I've noticed, and here's a discipleship idea. I want to do this at the Bible conference, but you could do it here. And I took a class in college called Religion, Ethics, and Film. It was an elective class. And it was taught by a pagan, a great professor. And it was probably one of my top two, three classes in college. What we would do is we would watch a movie on Monday night or Tuesday night in class, two hours. And then we would get together on Thursday having written this four or five page essay,

1:25:16and we would kind of went through the same format for each movie. And we're watching movies like Groundhog Day and the Green Mile and Shawshank Redemption and what's the Holocaust one? Schindler's list. Schindler's list that have deep religious, quote unquote, religious themes. And I've been listening to, first of all, I'd love to do something like that, religion, ethics, and film class. But a more manageable version of that, because not everyone has two hours to give to watch in a movie and then write in a paper. But music. I mean, I already talked to you about, like, I was hoping that you're going to say you're a DJ at a rock and roll station. But I've got a list of eight or ten songs that have deeply spiritual themes. Now, the writers didn't intend them to be Christian. In many cases, they're not even the religious themes in them aren't Christian. But there's something that happens inside me. And I first learned this in that religion, ethics, and film class, that you can take secular things and see the Lord's handprint all over them.

1:26:21You know what I mean? And so that's why I mean, that's even kind of why I raised the question of like, we're also reading stuff that's not just Christian, right? Or we're also looking at stuff that's not just Christian because if we can develop as followers of Christ, the ability to see the handiwork of God, even in a deaf leopard song, which there's no way they wrote it to display the handiwork of God. But it's there. You know what I mean? That's crazy. Yeah, I mean nine inch nails writing hurt. Yeah. Wow. So we're learning how to exegete the culture. Yeah. We know how to exegete the Bible maybe. But we certainly want to be able to speak to the culture. That's I think why Paul was able to quote Greek poets, Acts 17. And it was the right thing to pull out. And he wouldn't have been able to do that without familiarity. So we needed that. Great. Yeah. Guys, this has been great. Mike, great to meet you, Mark. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. And this will be, is there anything we need to link in the show notes?

1:27:22Did I say? You never mentioned the show notes. Oh, I didn't. I don't think this is my third one. We've got show notes. We've got show notes. Okay. That could be your D-shirt. You didn't have got show. Did you record his breakout session? Yes, it is recorded. So we might link that in the show. We can link that. So a federated fellowships media page will eventually have his breakout session. We'll put that in there. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Super. This has been CC Podcasts on Pray.com. Thanks for listening. To hear more of our thousands of pieces of content, please visit CCpodcasts.com for a link to download our free mobile app. All of our CC Podcasts are initiatives of Christian Crusaders Radio and Internet Ministry, which has been an existence since 1936. We are 100% donor funded. So if today's program has been meaningful to you in any way, please consider making a tax-adductable donation online by clicking the give button on our profile or by mailing a donation to Christian Crusaders.

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