‘Chad Powers’ Season 2 Breakdown With Creator Michael Waldron

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1:02and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremphaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit www.tremphayaradio.com. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV Podcast. I'm doing a Robinson. We're doing something a little different today. We're calling it a showrunner special. We've got Michael Waldron of Chad Powers, Loki, etc.

2:02We will talk about his incredible career. Michael Waldron. I'm a big fan of his. So we will talk to Michael Waldron. Molly Rubin is also here to bring the sort of football bonafides to this conversation about a television show about college football. So that was very useful to the conversation because certainly I could not provide that. Rahmahoney will be back next week. We're doing the new season of Slow Hourses episode 1. We've already recorded that episode. So that will be dropping next week after that episode drops. Just a quick preview of our conversation with Michael Waldron. Chad Powers season 2 spoilers obviously. So if you haven't watched all of Chad Powers season 2 is dropped on Hulu last week. You're going to want to do that before you listen to this podcast. So spoiler warning for Chad Powers. We talked about how Chad Powers relates to Michael Waldron's experience doing superhero storytelling for Marvel. We talked about what classic television like Mad Men, V breaking bad and flea bag, etc. How all of those things are in the mix for Chad Powers season 2.

3:04So real prestige TV feed special there. And then our last question for Michael, which I really loved his answer to, is sort of advice for people who want to get into making television. Sort of how he would advise they go about that. So you're going to stay tuned for that answer. So that is what we're doing today. And let's go now to our conversation with Michael Waldron. All right, we are here today with the great Michael Waldron. Michael, welcome to the podcast. Hi guys. We're thrilled to have you here. Thank you for having me. What a treat. What a honor. I'm honored. We're following your career since a Loki season one at the very least. You wrote my first ink in the trades. Yeah, your first ever ink in the trade. Yeah, feature well, vanity fair the big times. That was like fancy photo shoot. I remember I read that and I was like I am not I can't I'm not this guy. Hey, I was like, whoa. It was it was deep pandemic. Yeah. So we spent like four hours on zoom.

4:05And there was nothing else to do. Yeah. And you also showed me the like one million post it's you had from trying to figure out the Loki time loops. And yeah, the things that were going on. Yeah, post it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, not a cork board, not dry erase. No, I'm so dissuaded. So vessel of choice. Yeah, just making it up is all bullshit. What happens when the adhesive fades? The memory is starting to start over. You turn the time on. Yeah, no, no. The TV is really far. All right, we are here to talk about Chad power season two. Among other things, Malarys here is our football expert. I'm here as someone who consult as someone who watches television sometimes. But my first question for you is actually about movies, Michael Waldron, because we work at the ringer. I am legally obliged to start with this question, which is a couple weeks ago when I when I saw you in Chad powers event, you told me that one of the main inspozers season two was the film heat. As well as the dark night, which is also just based on heat. And so my question for you is since we at the ringer are obsessed with heat as well, what do you think it is about that film that is so irresistible to people who love telling stories?

5:13It's just it's so. Is there anything cooler than a guy my age talking about heat on a podcast? We were Christmas. Just finally that's what people get to get to see. You know, I think it's right. We're here. I mean, I think there is just there's something it's just cool. How do you how do you define what that is? The movie is just everybody in it is cool. They're doing cool shit. It's like that. That is kind of what you're what you're what I'm always chasing is, you know, what how do we make this cool Chad powers? How do you make that cool? That's like the highest degree of difficulty possible. But like we're you know, Glenn and I are like let's make it cool. Let's make it awesome. I mean, heat. I think it's two. You know, it's characters who are incredibly driven by, you know, they're chasing something and they'll kind of go down with the ship.

6:17And they're and the guns are really loud. That's probably that. I mean, we it's like there's there's one gunshot in Chad power season two with the 3D printed gun and the sound mix. I was like louder louder. I was like like the gun. It's just it's like the guns and heat. I was like it's Michael man. I was like it's Tom Cruise wasting the guys in the alley in collateral. Like it should be that loud. So I think why is heat so cool? It's because Michael man just cranks the gun shots. Okay. This makes it clear I think that Danny, you know, whiskers is a big heat guy, which I love to know. Well, I mean, and obviously, you know, heat was the inspiration for Toby Hus in his Howard powers. Get off. It's like the we are like deliver spots that you know, they Toby has fans are really living this year. I know we're thriving and chat powers. We're thriving. The jump scare when he first appeared in the full prosthetic was really something.

7:18And I was so invested that as he's talking to the, you know, the ride share driver. I was like, don't. Don't do it. Don't lift the wig. Don't feel the face. You know, you talked in and it could explain in your love for heat. About the chase, the pursuit, the thing you're working toward. And something that I think is like an undeniable parallel between Chad in Chad powers. And should we refer to him as Chad or Russ? Should we just see what feels right in the moment? Maybe that'll be. Yeah. That's what we do in the script. It's like if he's dressed as Chad, he's Chad. But then I have to demarcate speaking as Russ. So it gets glens like. It's like Chad phase, Russ voice. Yeah. You know, one of the things that feels like connective tissue between Chad and Loki is the idea of the do over. Right. And like, why is that so interesting to you not only as a person, but as a creator as a showrunner, why is that something that you want your protagonist to be pursuing?

8:21Like not just some sort of achievement, right? Some sort of level of excellence, but a redo on a mistake that they made. Audience's love stories that are about some kind of wish fulfillment. And I think that's probably a wish fulfillment for a lot, you know, for a lot of us is. Yeah. You know, well, I wish I could be a different kind of person in this way. Now we're probably not all as flawed as Loki or as maybe as Russ holiday. But there is a real fun fantasy element to that of what if what if I got to to change things up, you know, be somebody else. And so I don't know. I think audiences hook into that. Why do I keep telling that story? I actually kind of like, I'm like, I think my wife sometimes looks at me like, what's going on? And I'm like, no, I'm happy. I'm happy with who I am. I find it compelling.

9:21It's probably, you know, madman's my favorite show ever. And maybe it's, then maybe that's why it's just I, there's something about those characters who are just. They want to, they want to start over. And I think what's interesting is that you don't really fix yourself in doing that. You know, the answer is always you got to go back to the original version of yourself and just do the work. And so there's just, it's a story that is particularly well suited for TV, which, you know, if movies are about characters really being transformed. I feel like great TV is about characters taking incremental steps. Yeah, maybe toward, yeah, becoming better people or just becoming aware of how they're like shitty people. And so maybe, maybe that's why maybe that's why I keep doing this. We love a character on an arc. We do have a character on a related question. I don't think it's the exact same question.

10:21And I think it's related, which is like, I feel like you almost take a relish in presenting a challenge to the audience of, here's a guy. You mentioned flawed. You're like, here's a guy. He's tough. I'm going to make you love him anyway. Do you feel like that's true of something you, you do in storytelling? Yeah, I'd agree of this one's really tough. This is, this is, yeah. I mean, the shirt he's wearing and the pilot and the cyber truck, like, you know, and that's, by the way, that's just, it's like it's glint. You know, we, it's like when you've got Glenn Powell, I was like, okay, this guy is so likable. We can go maximum asshole. Like, let's really push it. And, you know, I mean, you can go too far. Like, I do, I do think that like that can repel audiences. And maybe that's, there's a lesson in that. But to me, it does make the, the journey so much more satisfying when they, if you get to watch them arc. Yeah. Into a decent person.

11:22Loki, fortunately, the great work, he'd are, you know, Avengers had him pull somebody's eyeball out as he like, grand. Yeah. So, so like that. Yeah, we had so much history with Loki, but we have, you know, we've got the Rose Bowl. Yeah, we got. Yeah. Ross does, which like, you know, there's a, I think a generous read of it that's like, boy, you're worse moment in this like real pressure cooker of visibility and feeling like everything in your life led to this moment. And then you made a terrible mistake, but to like establish for us so quickly that then he just kept doing everything wrong. And I love over the course of, you know, it's six episodes per season, two seasons. And they're, they're compact episodes, right? Somewhere between 30 to 40 minutes each. And like, that's not a lot of time. But we've, and we're in one season, two seasons of television. Yeah. One season of college football, right? So it's just a few months of Chad's new life. And I love, well, yeah. Yeah. How, you know, we've learned so much about how he sees himself, like what you were saying about, well, you can't, you don't actually like you get to do everybody.

12:22You don't really get to do every, you have to go back to like learning to be okay with Ross. And that's very fun to watch. Yeah, it's very fun to watch. I mean, when you meet him, it's the, you know, the original sin, I think in his mind is, well, I dropped. Right. My life went to shit because I dropped the ball. Maybe that's true. Maybe that, maybe that isn't. But that is what he is told to himself. But really, and I think the first season interrogates this and gets, he vocalizes it at the end. It's like, it's that he can't take accountability for that. Yeah. You know, and he's, he's able to, he spends the whole season, blaming everyone else. And finally, at the end of that first season, he just says, I'm sorry, I just got excited. And I, I think it's, I'm, you know, I, characters who can't take accountability. People who can't take accountability, like, are, are fascinating to me.

13:22And, and so that, I don't know, it's, again, it's just a great character to go on the ride with. Accountability is a fascinating lens, actually, and to something I wanted to ask, sort of another superhero comp with, you know, a mask and, and fake secret identities, like fake names. We've got a literal back cave comp here, right? To be able to walk that line where learning to take accountability and show some sort of, not only like acknowledgement of, but contrition for the things that Russ has done, while perpetuating this vast lie is kind of an amazing bit of context to watch a character grow inside of. And the only one of the things that unlocks that is who else is in cahoots with him. So how do you, this is such a classic superhero condon drill brought over into a sports story where like, how have you thought about finding and maintaining the balance where like it is crucial. Obviously, Danny learning is like from the word go because he's got to be the partner in crime.

14:22And then, bringing Ricky into the circle of awareness is very painful, very fraught. What Ricky says to chat at the end of season one is like, you could say the most hurtful thing anybody says to another character at any point in the run of the show. But then we build from there and Ricky has chances to step away, but decides to remain complicit in perpetuating this lie. And then we figure out what the sweet spot is where enough people know so that Chad slash Russ can live some degree of an honest truth with those characters he's moving forward with, while not having every other character know so that like even a show that, you know, in a very fun winquig way pushes the balance of the credulity like doesn't have that tip into all right, does coach Hudson know. Well, yeah, I mean, you know, it's each season one character has it's like Danny finds out at the beginning, but Danny's Alfred, you know, it's like he's and the superhero thing maybe last season I wasn't thinking about it this season I was like run straight at it like because it's it is a superhero story it's how it in it, you know, and it's kind of goes back and forth from being Batman, you know, Bruce Wayne Batman or Peter.

15:42Spider-Man depending on, you know, I think all the love story stuff is probably much more Peter and Spidey and then he said you had your Joker this season obviously we have our we have our Joker, but but but the as far as who do you bring in on it, I think the show and the and I think the reason that people are having a great time with season two is the show becomes it's fully realized version of itself when Ricky's in on it because Ricky is the eyes of the world. The audience really Ricky is the one who can say, this basement work two men are creak good cooking skin like this is insane, you know, she can constantly call them on their on their BS and it's and Perry Macphill. So she's so funny. She's great I think that just that unlocks it in many ways she's the only one you need in on it and you know just from like the romance angle she becomes sort of the conscience of the show and it's like well if you can redeem Russ in her eyes yeah.

16:48Then he can be redeemed perhaps in the eyes the world and so I think that's that's the journey that season to starts starts in from like a sure runner perspective curious what's the difference between approaching a first season and. Second season of a show that you're working on I mean season one you're you're finding especially with something like this where you're really. You know creating it out of thin air like you're finding your footing and. Kind of figuring out the tone it's tone you know and I think season two is the show I always wanted to be making season one I was like. Could I can we make that I like that's you know and and that's certainly not the show that nested it I didn't walk in and pitch this is a psychotic thriller drama like comedy drama like that's. Heat was not on the vision was not yeah yeah silence the land you know so the show kind of finds its way into what it wants to be I think that happens a lot of times especially with the best comedies.

17:54Because you're just settling into tone and you know and certainly you're figuring out your actor strengths and everything and by season two I knew I was like well let's like let's send it like let's the bus scene when I think about season one I'm like the scene on the bus between them is the show yeah that's that's Chad powers so let's just yeah and I'm like yeah because that's. Because that's because that's Loki to it's like that's and it's like that's I think for me it was also maybe accepting. That no matter what I'm an end up turning something into a drama yeah yeah and so not running away. Did you know that psoriatic arthritis may progress over time and could cause permanent joint damage if left untreated. Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

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19:59I guess I'll let myself out congratulations. I mean it buyers rejoice by your car today on Carvana limitations and exclusions may apply see our seven day return policy at Carvana.com. Gray roots entering the chat uninvited. Garnier's got you. Garnier color sensation re-reattached covers up to 100% of grays in just 10 minutes. No ammonia no mess and the color last up to four weeks it's as easy to apply as shampoo plus it's vegan and cruelty free 10 minutes sensational color sensational price with those savings your next girls night is basically free. Find your perfect match at walmart.com or to store near you. Ton is evolving tone is cementing something else that is evolving in real time is the NIL era of college football which Joanna told me I was allowed to ask about. Yeah so I think you were like rapidly trying to stay relevant. This is what I wanted to ask you about because this is a show there's a version of chat powers that exists.

21:02I'll soon into the pilot you say I was mentioned I think 10 minutes yeah yeah and I had said to you I was like there's this is a this is an NIL era like peach tree dish show and obviously you know the the connection to you lies places. Yeah the origin of the show like there's a version of chat powers that you can do pre NIL where like all of the secrets and the things that go into like the money and the boosters and everything. Make sense it's just happening even further in the shadows the fact that we're now in the era of. Open crux and the options out the open yeah I can't really try show in an NIL era show is like cocaine right. I'm just unbelievable to watch she's the best my queen even something on the plot front like it is plausible to a modern college football audience that. Chad powers having the season he has is having would go up there and say i'm coming back because it's not just the emotional decision. You know that the boosters will be paying him as much as he'd make in the pros right so. My question then is.

22:03Got a real kick it out of the specifically on the link if in front because you guys wonder chef's kiss stuff got multiple link. And then like we're right now yeah the college football season's beginning link if in is in like active legislation about whether guys who declare for the pros can go back and play college football just like on what a time to. It's like season one we hit on the cyber truck season two we hit on lane i'm like i don't know what it's going to be season three. It's like the the effect when that happens do you just feel like this is this is promo for our show i mean yes but also it's not we don't i don't feel like a genius it's like you can do with lane kiffin it's like that's any season for the as long as you've been. Yeah he's always entertaining do you feel then like you have to because something that would have been nefarious before in the sport and like to be clear. Terrible things illicit things scandalous things have always happened in college for great but something that would have happened in the shadows before is now permissible like you have to try even harder to push the boundaries of what your characters would feel compelled to do in secret totally totally i mean i think that's the.

23:13It is it is like and beeps a good or it's like the bars. Yeah i mean it's like now you watch the you're like this is. And i'm when i watch it i was like what a biting satire could you imagine if it was like this optimistically we are living through like a snapshot of time in the in the history of college football where it's like it's really the wild west yeah. Maybe in five to ten years we'll look back on this and almost feel like the steroid air of just like that was nuts like can you believe how crazy that was. But this is the world where the audience is watching the show you know and it's like so i think i mean the show is taking place in 2026 or whatever it is it's like it's taking place right now yes. So we to us we are like let's reflect the reality of it right now and so it's good for us that they can pay players like because that that's like you know when trisha is like i'm you're going to be Chad powers for a long long time like you know if she's.

24:23Gus ring it's like she can be Gus even more easily right yeah it's like because her power is just out in the open now it's like i love trisha buddy charity steroids in the best way i love it exactly a reality of running a show. For any network is that there's the vision you have and then there's a larger apparatus around the show and i'm curious how you as a creator handle getting notes that contradict maybe your core idea of what you wanted the show to be. I really am appreciative of my partners at hulu and 20th because i think that when they heard adaptation of Chad powers with Glenn power they were like alright this is going to be so sweet and it's like you imagine i know what you imagine yeah. And i was like this is going to be.

25:24I'm going to do weird and and then this season it was like we're it's you know especially with me directing a lot of it is like it's going to be a thriller like that's just how we want to do it and the network was like. Great you know they they got behind it and his cuts came in they were like okay. So it's a thriller and i was like well it's a romance. But kind of like a romantic thriller yeah they're like but it's a comedy i was like i'm laughing. And they're like okay yeah we are to like yes in this season especially like marketed it like exactly how. I feel like we made it and and so. They they came along for the ride and that's all that's really what you dream of and I think probably harder on a show like this you're not always so lucky so. Yeah i mean you know Craig and Carrie and everybody runs runs things over there you know they've been great partners friend of a different pod that we do house of our Ryan condol house the dragon show runner.

26:34He's fond of saying that like whenever he gets a note that says great first draft that just means this sucks so i'm curious like. Are there any coded notes or or notes that you've gotten where you're sort of like you had to learn on the job all that's what this means. This is really interesting i'm like oh you hate it yeah oh interesting. I thought it was a really interesting choice to have. Jerry in his jockstrap doing karate incredible. In general you're genuinely proud of this season. Yeah i mean oh my god what a. But um both times we've wound up kind of having to shoot this thing like on the run we're not. I mean i'm you know we're kind of shooting i'm not doing a ton of rewrites so it's like you know we're all it's the glens of movies we're so lucky to have. So you know but but there yeah there's there's definitely plenty of like. What's uh maybe maybe just pace this up maybe pace it i'm like that's code for okay it's not as seen as it is funny as i think it is.

27:40I mean i love it because it also just sounds like perfectly mapped on to. The coach is giving Chad feedback on how to run the office totally but it's like. There are plenty of times it's like in our words like people have these adversarial relationships a show like this. Cannot get on to television with like a huge marketing apparatus behind it without the network the studio getting it so i'm. Yeah you know i'm i am lucky that's because this is crazy it's like for the show i look at the shit that these characters are saying and i'm like that's. This is so specifically me i'm like. But like at a certain point having had the career trajectory trajectory you've had do you still say wow this is luck or do you say wow i'm like a Waldron i must be pretty good at this. To add a wrap about the Invanity Fair. If i said that to my wife it would be the funniest story is amazing like it's an incredible.

28:43I've been i've been super fortunate and to work on the stuff that i've that i've worked on but nothing's guaranteed you know and it's like. Even the show last last season i mean it didn't it's not like it set the world on fire you know and i i think. That was a like oh yeah you know just it's one thing when you make stuff from our world the whole world's going to watch but it's like you go out there on your own try and make something. It's tough it's like you know it's me it's Glenn but like the audience has to find it and they have they have to want it. And thank god this you know it feels like this season that maybe that's happening but it's like there's you know it's a tough it's a tough business. And so the longer you do this the more you actually do feel fortunate when you're working on something that is connected. That is like incredibly healthy and measured perspective and it strikes me that it is quite distinct from how a lot of the characters in this show think about their life which is like measuring it which is how I actually.

29:47Don't I mean believe we all do right this is the way I wanted to ask you about because it's really your sports fan right you're a your Bulldogs fan go. Yeah curious how you feel about their chances this season i've got some thoughts. But um okay is there a year it's always are you. And it's always it's always there you're to at least spend the next. Yeah must be nice chat powers heels like sports and the pursuit inside of sports is something you're really interested in but you're not focusing on. So much you're focusing on the figure who is seeking something and then does not know how to like navigate their own circumstances absent that outcome which is like an incredibly rich text because it is whether or not somebody is like the head football coach of the catfish or. Suddenly the star quarterback or the backup shout out Jerry wants to bring a mention Jerry as often as we can today yes we should. I quite agree but I love this because you have Chad like the bad choice the lack of accountability that we already talked about the question of whether that kind of emerges over the course of the two seasons so far of like all right i'm just like I got to do the I got to do it the one time and it's like.

30:55Would that be enough actually right is the thing that you really need the love of everybody telling you that you're worth something you have coach Hudson who's like got his version of. I just need the one he's made me the only one I believe it from so far actually Jerry it Jerry again he's fascinating to me as a figure for this because like he goes from aw shucks how lucky am I just to breathe the catfish locker room air and now he's like I got a taste of it for a second and nothing else will ever measure up right so this idea of like the pursuit of excellence great spread. So I think that's a great way to get to the point of excellence great sports story like the thing we all love. Feeling to reach the pinnacle like what does that do to a person and how do they exist in the face of that that's like really central to what you're exploring here a I just love. I'm always do a love story love stories it's like it's like that's my favorite thing to write to film to edit it's it's the best feeling on film it and and so that can be to people in love it can also be characters yearning for success that is alluded them.

32:11In terms it's what you're saying is is so interesting that idea of like if I just win this championship then I'll be happy I'll tell you a story I remember when I was out here just I hadn't been in LA very long been lucky enough to get an internship on Rick and Morty first season and i'm I'm like changing toilet seats for Dan. I always say to my wife my my then girlfriend at the time I would say if I could just sell a script it's like that was the thing sell a script usually write these pilots so I would really said this come in sit down on the couch and it's like I just be happy then I went I and I get a little deeper in my career it was a pa on community and I'd written the pilot for heels shout out D W I sold it I sold it to paramount television and stars. And you know sign my deal and everything and came home and sat on the couch and felt probably maybe for the first time in my life incredibly depressed because I had this feeling of this did not transform me.

33:24I am I am who I was yesterday and so when working through that I do think it was transformative because I was like oh yeah that's not you can't attach your happiness never going to come from one outcome but I am fascinated by characters. And who think who think that and but and because I it's like I think all of us who are creative people we we build to a thing it's like you know in the release of a thing and it's well this thing and it's like the response and it's easy to be like well that's going to make you happy yeah it's but it's not it's like it's you know it's it's it's the totality of life and the people in it that can make you happy. So I feel about you. Can I ask you a yearning question yes who do you feel are like this is not a plan question but like what is the epitome of year and free like film television story telling wise who's who's our best yearner

34:28is our bet like the best yearning story like the person who's best at performing yearning I mean brokavak mountain is like that's like some of the best yearning it's a good answer. Ever ghost ghost ghost is like sneakily like that's in my letter box like it's like that the yearning there is so it's wavy agree a great year. Yeah you can't touch the person yeah devastating yeah yeah it's like the love that that cannot be bridges of Madison County. This is a tremendous answer for me that's the message that is your is oh my god that's like the greatest high octane yearning that movie is a lecture. That's that movie is so when they're in the rain they're driving at the end that's that's like that's like I'm like I'll make stuff like that my whole life be happy.

35:33Do you have a favorite off the top of your head like a favorite madman episode and does it what are we yearning for in madman i love the suitcase obviously it's great I always think about I think it's the strategy it's in the first half of season the final season it's were done and Peggy dance. But then it ends but then it ends on that amazing shot of dawn peaton Peggy sitting at burger chef yeah and it's like of course the great madman pull out which we try to do at the end of season or episode two of chat powers that when they're in the when they're in the basement and Russ is really sad I was like it's the madman pull out I was like we got to go further I was like they pull into another room and we're on the stage they're like we're going to be on the fucking stage I was like we got a building. Building a room. Trishel. But it's just that amazing of it because the whole episode is about you know there's you you go and you eat with a family whatever and it's done Pete and Peggy as their own little family and it's their framed in the window that's the one that comes to mind because it's just like I just love I mean I just love those characters and it's so amazing.

36:52I'm too for a rewatch let's do it sign me up okay twist my arm yeah let's stick on yearning let's stick on romance with Ricky's come up a few times I this is this is often true when I ask a question but this time I'm going to concede in advance there's not really a question here just going to work through something in real time with you. Perfect. Okay so Ricky and Chad slash Ross I have really really really loved watching their relationship and have found myself like I was having one of those physical experiences in the closing scene of the season to finale where you realize you're like actually you're away from the back season two yeah exactly that's by the way yearning yeah that's back to the back season to lean that's the yearning yeah let's get a fox into Chad power yes at some point I would have had that homily read it my wedding oh my god so really I think it's like season two just it's under Scott season Elson or it always it'll pass it's always under Scott's son okay so like we know that there are problems right we know that it's bad

37:58we're women watching the show and there's a part of my mind that's just like Ricky is going to be held to a certain standard here is a woman in sports and that's like not something I can stop thinking about is I'm watching it right also Ricky is a coach and Chad despite secretly being a 30 year old and the rest is her player right so all that's there to me the key is that the show is hyper conscious of all that and the characters engage with that that's not there's no disconnect between the show and us as viewers right the characters are like what do we do about all of these variables that are very present in our lives because we like want to fuck each other we're falling in love with each other and you're just so swept up and watching that and when Russ finally says at the end like I say something I love you and then they kiss it's just like magical and all of the parts of your brain that are running through the reasons why it's not something that's like wise just cease to matter and so I find myself incredibly invested in their romantic relationship

39:02while very concerned all of that means for that it's characters you have the obvious like additional delicious elements of Ricky's dad you know the door opening at the end there the fact that like we're going to do it the fact that like Ricky has made this decision go orange to go to queues but then we have Jay and his like you know guiding puppeteering hand there so I don't trust it because fuck that guy he's the threat to Ricky and Chad right and then we have coach Hudson saying I'm going to step away and here's how it's going to go Ricky QB coach and there's a part of me that's like I want them to be together and then there's a part of me that's like season three she needs to be in Syracuse or somewhere else and then they meet up like oh let's do the heated rivalry it's okay to fuck at the all star game get them at the high Smanceramony you know moments like that where there's like a way to make it possible when it shouldn't be incredible year and also and yeah that's a good one audiences want yearning they're just getting it on TV right now yeah and so that's why it's like blowing up so

40:07which of those variables all of which are present is like most dominant right the desire for them to be together certainly well I mean first off I guess maybe I'll I'll answer that question without an answer great because it wasn't a question perfect I'll answer that non-question with a non-answer the conversation about she you know just how complicated that it's like forget the fact that he's a guy in a mask and that he slept with her dad's wife that's right yeah it's like forget that except you didn't even mention that in your laundry list of reasons this is fucked up but but that that she is his coach and she is a woman in sports we you know we talked about that the writers were sure and we were like do do we go there and I kept having this intense feeling of we have to it's like it's there we have and and so we were like how do we make sure we

41:13go there and we don't sell sell her out and we were like we just have to play it out realistically like like it's just in the tragedy of that scene and when all that happens is she is put in this situation where in order to keep up the lie she has to just let her dad think that she has been letting something romantic go so it's like that is preferable right to the awful truth and it was that's that's great that to me that's delicious and that's that's kind of the the name of the game with the show I've talked about it plenty like that it's trying to do what they did in breaking bad which is just like if there's a problem that seems impossible for us to get out of yeah in the in the writers room the gun the truck I'm like we have to do it yeah like like that whenever we're like we can't do that because that's impossible it's always like that's what we have to do yeah because then then you've got the audience in free fall

42:21and they're not ahead of you that's what I've loved most about it other than the fact that they just have wonderful chemistry and it's very compelling to watch I feel complicit in a good way like I want the thing they want and I know the path to that is not clean yeah I have even though this is a Michael Walden interview I have a malar urban question which is how did a horny prosthetic like rate on your scale of like one to 10 of of hornyness on screen thanks for asking so when we think about taking somebody's clothes off if that person we're wearing a home coach prosthetic mask yeah you would start there it's funny because I did actually think do I want their first kiss to be with the mask on or off and I was very tortured about it I'm like I think rip it off right away but I was glad I was glad that didn't happen you know we have kind of the like Chad into Russ emerging from the cocoon I don't know if I should do this while we're talking about those it was a beer I mean that was like you know it's there's like a major reset when we tear that

43:28on my face so when we were shooting that we really just got like two bites of the apple and it was like we're going to do it one time and close up in one time and are like too shot and and so it's like we do several takes where it doesn't rip and then finally and then I was going to call I'm tucked away in a corner calling face and it was like time for to do it very sexy yeah but but in the one that's in the one that's in the show in the one that's in the show Perry just she just did it she like jumped the gun yeah and did it and I and I think that that it feel it feels like there wasn't like a pervert in the corner being like here's what to do you get scheduled the year yeah but there I mean yeah it's amazing I really love that moment it was very thematically like okay she fell in love with Chad initially but it is like working to Russ and also it was hot just

44:32just worked across the board I was I was trying to remember what I'm just going to keep that circling back to yearning I was trying to remember what show it was that like really unlocked the you can't touch the yearning and it's pushing daisies of course right well the piling day is it no they I mean you in a frillie pace you would love it deeply in love they literally cannot touch and so what is one of them will die those are the stakes that's it's a wrap yeah it's true yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so you mentioned Rick and Morty you mentioned heels we've talked about Loki across all of these TV experiences you've had what do you feel like is was the most instructive to you on this is how I want to watch how I want to run a show I mean probably heels just because it was my first and it was and it was the one where I had no idea what I was doing I mean I was like 29 maybe and

45:32running that writers room with a bunch of brilliant writers and had no clue how to do and had to really like fumble my way through it and wrote the season show kind of got put on a shelf and that's I went back to Rick and Morty is a as a writer and a producer and then then got the Loki job and then when I got Loki I was like okay I'm gonna learn from all my mistakes you know just just all of the like not not having a strong enough point of view on things and and so I think heels the most instructive just because it was the first and I was an idiot but but that's you know now it's like you you know what you realize is that these things they need somebody at the top you know and everybody wants they want it to be your vision you know that's your job I think I also want to ask do you want to craft one person perfect

46:35to doobstay question that Michael Waldron might actually answer tell us everything about doobstay leave nothing out fade in yeah there's an animated graphic of the marvel look have you seen this oh the sound of pages that's great for anyone who's who's listening to this or watching this who wants to get into making television what's your one piece of advice watch madman watch find things that you love find the show I mean it could just stop I like I just like I was hoping that's what you would say I feel like the Michael Waldron answer is watch things yeah yeah it's watch things and then read them if it's not madman if there's a show you like more fine chat powers or heels or Loki but find a show that you love that the pilot script is available online and get download that script watch the pilot read the script watch the pilot read the

47:41script understand you know if this is just from like how do you start writing TV but understand how something you know makes it because every you know there's the Game of Thrones pilot was just pages you know it's like that that's all these things are and anybody can write completely reshore so yeah that's you know watch madman or watch chat if you watch chat powers really everything it's the same as watching madman yeah it's honestly very similar text text yeah yeah yeah excellent uh Michael Waldron thank you thank you all for having me what a treat yeah what a treat go dogs go fish go fish this is us banks cozy cash formations with your chief financial playmaker for Nando Mendoza you are

48:41worthy of financial security budgeting is now restriction it's freedom you are smart you are capable you are giving your money a purpose you are learning the language of saving of growing now streaming member FDIC copyright 2026 US bank this episode is brought to by Whole Foods who has your back to school eats sorted wow we're going back to score already they've got your fast and easy breakfast covered with frozen waffles and pancakes lunch boxes are looking tasty with organic seedless grapes and baby carrots and essentials like cheese sticks then for dinner you can build your own meal choose from a variety of entrees like chicken's cow pinion two sides and it's all good too whole foods is more than 300 food degree the in store wide shop back to school must have that whole foods market in store around line