CJ SPIRAL: Mica Miller

0:00Hi, Crime Junkies. It's spread. If this show has taught us anything, it's that the truth is not always the version people tell you first. That's what makes Camillean so good. Each week, host Josh Jean digs into real stories of people pretending to be someone they're not, from elaborate scams to cons that somehow keep going long after they should have fallen apart. It's true crime, but with a different kind of danger, manipulation, deception, and lies that actually worked. Listen to Camillean every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. You know those stories where the more you learn, the less sure you are about what actually happened, where everyone seems to have their own version of the truth. If that's what keeps you hooked, the new film Variety from Amazon MGM Studios should absolutely be on your radar. Adapted from the best-selling novel by Colling Hoover, Variety is a psychological thriller starring Dakota Johnson as Lohan Ashley, a struggling writer hired to ghost write for renowned author Variety Crawford, played by Anne Hathaway. Lohan relocates to Variety's remote estate, where she discovers what appears to be Variety's

1:01autobiographical notes, revealing disturbing conventions that completely change what she thought she knew about Variety and her husband Jeremy, played by Josh Hartnett. I read the book and I swear I was analyzing every detail, trying to figure out what actually happened. But every answer leads Lohan to another question, until she's forced to consider what's real, what's manipulation, and whether she has enough of the story to know the truth at all. In peace together the truth, see Variety only in theaters October 2nd. Get your tickets now. Hi, Grime Jenkies. I'm your host Ashley Flowers. And I'm Fritz. And today's episode is going to be very different. This is a bonus episode because I just need to talk about what I just watched. So badly that you texted me, Alyssa. My sister. And Kate. Who works here? Who works here? I like nine o'clock at night after nine and said, M, 9.20. My evangelical gals. All caps. Did the Lord magically sink her phone? OMG, I believe in God again, if he redirects all his energy out to out dirty pastors.

2:06And Alyssa goes, what are you talking about? And then you disregard that question and you push into JP arrived at the scene. The pastor's wife on Netflix. And she goes, stop. I haven't watched it yet. I also hadn't watched it. But I was like, oh my God, I know this case. This is the my Camilla case. The pastor's wife just dropped on Netflix. I stayed up to like, it's like the death of the pastor's wife is like the actual title or something. So this is the story of my Camilla, who is alleged to have taken her own life in April of 2024. Like I stayed up, binged it to like midnight. It was a school night. Yes. Everyone else was apparently like going to going to bed. But I could not look away. This case is unbelievable. And I know it's what everyone is talking about so many of the crime going to be talking about it. I want to just have a discussion about everything that was in this documentary. And also I couldn't help myself.

3:06I in 24 hours have just gone on a rampage on the internet and found everything that I think the documentary also left out. Okay. I just want to talk to my best friend about this doc, especially because like this case feels very close to home because you and I both grew up together in an evangelical non-denominational church. It's sugar warning. There was a lot here that was like familiar and terrifying. Yeah. Because the best way to just go to my sugar warning to my evangelical gals and also spoiler alert to anyone who hasn't watched this. So you can either trust me, even if you stay here, you're going to want to go see guests for yourself or you can go watch it and come back. But let's just enough. I just want to dive in. Okay. So I have to be totally honest. I have been like I know my Camille is name. I have been kind of following it. One of our reporters had even like reached out to her family and was like we were going to cover it, but they couldn't really talk.

4:08Yeah. Which is when we kind of put everything on pause. So I was never like deep, deep, deep into this case. I knew the allegations. I knew she had bought a gun. I knew she had seen like the announcement from the platform of like him, right? I did never even fully watch that. Like I saw all the news reports that came from that. Okay. Where he basically said, you know, my wife, she was mentally ill. She what self-induced like and I knew that she, again, like I said, I knew she had gone to buy a gun. I knew she had called 911 today, would know her location. But I also knew that there were a lot of questions. Yeah. But I wasn't fully aware of what all of those were. So when I jumped into this doc, I truthfully kind of got in cold. Yes. And didn't even really know I know my Camille's name. Yeah. I didn't even really register like who is the pastor husband? So. Yes.

5:09So when she gets married, when I, yes. So when I go in and I like as soon as she starts at this church and I see jump hall, I, you know, I'm like giving myself my own commentary. And as soon as they like brought him on screen and I was like, yep, creep. And then she gets married to someone else and I was like, I, do I have it all wrong? Yeah. It's my radar broken. It's not. It's not. And then I marked it. 12 minutes and 30 seconds in. Nope. I am correct. Because Micah gets married really young to a guy she meets a church. She like are working in a church together. They get married really young. And she is working at the church and working really closely with jump hall, JP, who is the pastor at the church who has been her pastor since she was 13 or 14, I think. Young. Very young. Yeah. And he put her in like very, very close to him. Like a, she, which I'll get to later when I talk about like kind of some of the stuff I found, it seems to be a little bit of a pattern.

6:09Like, so not only were they close as a couple, like he was married to another woman at the time. She's married to her husband. They like go out all the time, even though there's like a big age gap. But like, this is the dynamic that when you and I grew up in a church, like, isn't that weird? I think it would be strange now thinking about it as like an 18 year old and my boyfriend husband to be like hanging out with a couple that's 15 years older than that. In youth group for some reason. No. And like, I, when I was watching this, I was like, I also, I also like to be clear, was in the church for much longer than you were and was much more heavily involved for much longer. Two pictures of you like on a stage, a hand in the air. When she, when it's like, when in the documentary, they talk about her being in like this leadership role of the church when she was 16, I was put in the same leadership role at my church when I was 18. So like, I'm, it seems incredible and unlikely when you're watching it in the doc, but like, I was like, Oh, I know exactly how that happens.

7:10I know exactly like also like what it feels like to be that young and to get that much responsibility in this place that you love and care about so much and how much of like an honor and a responsibility that feels like to do anything to do anything to do anything to stay in that role and to like something that came through the doc that I'll probably talk about it a million times is how much she cared for people like Micah truly loved people honestly more than I do. Whatever have and like she wanted to keep that role so she could keep helping people like that truly was her heart through it all and knowing like not even knowing, but like assuming how much she had to like give up of herself to be in that role and to keep that is like I'm going to start, I'm going to cry in this episode. I'm just going to tell you guys that. Oh man. It seems like it seems wild to watch it, but like as someone who lived it, it's not unbelievable to me. One of the questions, I don't know who asked me this, but they were like, I don't understand how there's so much video.

8:10And I was like, they're like, is that normal? And I was like, Oh yeah, for some reason, like even in the Tertweiger up in like the document everything. Yeah. And like, I think like logistically the reason is like so you can either like reference back to it when you do Christmas next year or to like be able to distribute it to help other people, right? Like you record sermon so that you can share sermons, but like it is something that like there is a lot of footage of churches, especially nowadays. Treasure trove. Yeah. Having so much video footage. Yeah. I think a what I, okay, first of all, the first thing that I saw that I was like, oh, this one might be hard for me. The banners. Did you see the banners in the bag of the church? And I was like, we had that. Our God is King. One. Do all the banners come from the same place? And like if you, if you like watch the whole documentary and like I've obviously watched it a couple of times now, but like the banners move in the buildings to different places. And like towards the end when they're in like a, like the last location that they show the church meeting in like it's a much smaller room, but the banners are still there. And I'm like, we could just have not packed these.

9:13I don't know. That's just me. The banners, the worship songs. It was like a soundtrack to our youth. Like I have a lot of songs that I recognize. For sure. Yeah, for sure. And the sermons. I think perhaps if someone comes into this documentary who did not grow up the way that we did, these sermons seem, oh yeah, and this, by the way, this episode will probably be explicit. So I don't think we're going to have time to believe it. This, they will seem bashed crazy. Yeah. Because they are. Yes. However, I was like, pretty sure I heard that growing up. Yes. And I will say yes. And they mentioned the documentary. They have like over 500 downloaded sermons of footage of this guy talking. And we saw, I think I counted like four or five, maybe six total actual sermons. Yeah. Not funerals because we do see footage of funerals that he does. And so like, I think the important thing to remember is like, yes, these are all bad.

10:16But these are also selections that are especially bad. There's 1,000% some crazy stuff in the other 500. But like if you sandwich this sort of like interesting content in between things that seem very benign, it's really easy to not realize what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. Like I go your say, or first I thought you were saying like, oh, it's probably, I was like, wait, girl. No. Like, this is one sermon. It's two minutes. It's two minutes of one sermon. In a four minute sermon. In five hundred, yeah. Exactly. And what I find though is the ones that they show, it's what is so clear as you watch the documentary is like, he is preaching to who to her to her. Yeah. It's like, it's less about what the congregation takes away. And I'm sure he wants everyone to think the way that he thinks. Well, as someone in the documentary even says, like he said before that like he only teaches on things that he himself is experiencing or is struggling with. Yeah. And he is trying to so much of what you see, Micah struggling with as they like show her journals and stuff is this idea of like, he isn't.

11:17He's just annoyed by God. I want to follow God. And he, annoyed by God on the stage in front of everyone. So it's not he's just telling me this. He's telling everyone this. So it's not just, it's like, it's good. It's something that can help everybody, including me. Yeah. It's how it's being presented to her. So it starts off like we get like little ones first where he's like, oh, you can still be in love with your spouse and still battle lust. And I was like, okay, you're saying that because clearly there's that's because you are are battling right. And then he gets like, like it goes on from there. Like I don't know if you want to go like episode by episode. So I like, it won't get too far away. But I have like selected the couple of sermons where I am like, he said this out loud. And nobody stood up and walked out. Yes. Now in episode one. So we get a little bit about like not a ton of background necessarily on both of them. I think it starts with a little bit of whatever. But what we find out is that like once this affair happens. So him and him and Micah have this affair. JP and Micah have this affair. They're both married at the time.

12:18It comes out and Micah and her husband get divorced and JP's wife, Ali is having none of it. Like she's out. Yeah. Amazing on her. And he like cannot handle being left. And we get this moment in the dog. And I think this is the first one where I'm like, what hang on? I actually have to play you. So the same way I frantically was texting you. I was desperately looking for any of anyone in my life who was watching this documentary. And I was texting like our reporter Mads, Brianna and Brianna and I at some point Brianna in a completely different time zone. So she was still awake watching. And so I was like, she started sending me voice notes. I just need to play it for you because she the first voice note I got was about the same moment where I'm like, what am I watching? I'm almost done with episode one. But like what was that cell phone video of John Paul like on the ground outside of the car like crying?

13:19What was that? That was so weird. I also like on like a production level. Weird. Like who's shooting it? When is this? What's happening? Who is he talking to? Why is he on the ground? Who's like he's still awake. I think they were saying Mark's coming. Who's Mark? I I. We find out who Mark is. That's like the best man. Oh right. Don't get me started on Mark. We know Mark. But like the woman across the street has Mark's number. Why does she have Mark's number? Because he doesn't have a video. There's ants in his eyes. There's a lot going on in this video. And like they never explain it. I know. I told her I needed a three-part documentary on that clip. On this clip. We don't like go into it. Was he like intoxicated? Did he fall out of his car? But I think what I think it shows that we will get later and later is like his extreme way that he will like be the victim. Right? Like this is about him. Like he had to be a fair.

14:19But he'll do anything to get his family back. Spoiler alert. He does not get his family back. Now one of the things that is said in the documentary is that apparently JP was like now that they're getting divorced. A lot of people like loved his wife. They're hemorrhaging members. And so what you see happen is him and Micah end up getting together. I don't know the ins and outs of their relationship. But you can see happening. And so I don't know who said what or whose idea or whatever. But I think at one point she's like I want something good to come of this. And I wonder how much. Like once we know later how much control he had. And how much coercion and manipulation he was using in their lives. How much he was saying we have to we could turn this into something good. Yeah. And what he ends up using later is like is if she does anything, the whole church will fall apart because of hers. So is there a moment when he's like, oh, we we have to stay together because the only way to stop this bad thing from happening.

15:20This affairs what is breaking apart the church. Only the marriage can bring it back together. So they end up getting together. And it is the perfect example of how everything seems. Picture perfect online. Yes. Like the proposal on the beach with the banner and she's over the moon. And like they seem incredibly happy. Yeah. But I think even from day one, things were not what they seemed. No, like in my opinion, they almost couldn't be. We get a little bit more in episode one as well of like his, his sermons, right? And about the way that he's talking about himself, one of my favorites was he was like, God seen everything you've done, everything you're going to do. And he's already forgiven you. Wild foreshadowing spoiler alert. But it's like, it's fine. God has forgiven him. And then he has his other one that like I like, I feel like most of my moments were just

16:22like listening to him preaching, like, John the four because he has other memories. He says that when you commit adultery on God, he keeps pursuing you and loving you. Every single day. And he likened salvation to marriage. And this is at the point, I think, when Micah and I don't know how early she realized, but at some point is realizing, oh, he is running around on her just like he did before. Like to quote you for you. Is this playing about us? Yes. Yes. And so, but again, he's like using his, his pulpit to just spew this stuff. Okay. And then that everything I think changes and takes this very dramatic turn into where we will end up a couple of years from now is apparently she has this breast augmentation, which her family thinks maybe she got just because I have no idea why she chose to do that. But there's this. I was going to say in simulation, but it's pretty blatant in the doc where they, they say or someone is saying that yeah, they basically, I was going to say imply, but you're

17:22right. They say that the anesthesia, there was a reaction to the anesthesia. And she like began having like, psychotic episode, she was going in and out of psychosis from the anesthesia, which I have like 400 questions about. Yeah. Because we really to like prove this, we really get one video that he is taking of her where she, she isn't making sense. No. But it's strange because like there is another moment in that first episode where you can tell she is taking a video. And it's like, by the way, this is something that I've seen people do in really toxic relationships is they'll like record themselves video audio to like play back later and prove to themselves what's happening. Yeah. Because the other person will like make them feel crazy. Yeah. Gas like them. Right. And so like the first time we see this like moment, she's not recording. She's just kind of talking to him and sounding off. And like you can't even really tell if she knows she's being recorded in that moment.

18:24Like the phone is kind of like off, the shot is kind of like off to the side. And like she's not acknowledging. Yeah. Like that she's being filmed at all. But the second time that you're talking about when she's filming herself, she does acknowledge like, hey, yeah, go ahead, double film me. Like if that's what you want to do. Which I think is interesting that we don't have like her point of her version. We have his, which is the like encapsulation of this entire case. And like the entire last few years of her life, we have his version because of him. Right. Like that's very and very obvious. So at some point like this is 1856. And this is like what I couldn't believe in the documentary. He has her involuntarily committed. Yes. Which I know you can do. And we see some of the medical documents that do state that she's like seemingly delusional. She's having like hyperligious speak like there are things that indicate she has seemingly had some break with reality.

19:26How she got there, why she got there. I have a like I said, 400 questions about. But she gets out of there. They get married six days after she gets out. Which is like, but because he had a time plan. That was the other thing they said. But once they like decided they were going to be together, apparently he gave her some kind of, we're going to get engaged at this point. We're going to be engaged for this long. Then we'll get married. And like her, I wonder if I'm going to have you committed was like in there. I would say her being institutionalized like could have thrown off his schedule. And that was not going to be okay. Not today. The vows I thought were interesting. Did you clock those? She's, they won. She said that they had gone in with a plan to give each other five promises. And she could only come up with one. And her promise was to give 100% of everything she does. 100% of herself. 100% of her encouragement. This is like a kind of broad quote to him. Yeah. Everything I am I give to you. His was like different.

20:26And I don't even know if we heard all of his. I don't know if we heard all of it, but I did take notes. I did it. I'll strive to continuously lead you to Jesus. So she needs to be led. I promise to always support your enthusiastic personality. Which is like timing wise, interesting because he just had her committed for like kind of that. And it's not even like like I love it. It's like I'll support your enthusiastic personality. He'll remain faithful loyal, encouraging spoiler alert. No. And he's going to strive to love you the way Christ loved the church. He'll try. Right. That was like his best thing. She's like, I just couldn't. I agree. I also will say that like in hindsight, those are all like really. Values. But in the moment in that environment, those vows are super normal. Those vows are super normal. I know. Like I like want to be like really clear that we are watching a documentary and we are looking at it. Like a decade or more out of the church.

21:28I don't think those vows would have given me any red flags. Not at the time. But her family. I mean her family. My family was not thrilled because they had they had more background. But and this is where it yet. No, the vows by themselves don't. And to your point of the same thing with the sermons, it's like when you're in it and you're living it, I think this is what can be so hard to like spot abuse in someone else is like you from the outside get these like tiny moments where like something feels off or pushed in between everything else. You're like, well, everything else is like that. What? That's just must just be like a weird them thing. And maybe the vows aren't even that because like I agree with you and the church that wouldn't have registered. But like this is when after they get married, I think their friends start to get those weird moments like the well and her she and I told a couple other people this after I watch it like I am so proud of her for how much she talked to her friends. Yeah. Because I mean you and I see it all the time in episodes where like abuse and coercion

22:29and manipulation is happening and the person experiencing it never says a thing. Yeah. But from their diaries or you find out from their recordings and you don't you don't find out any of that until it's it's too late. And like she she was already doing that, but I can tell you from experience saying those things in that environment about your past about your husband, the pastor impossible. Incredibly brave for her to say the things that she said to anyone. Not alone we have like three of her friends at least plus her plus her family like she was saying things that like I know are really really scary to say in any environment from the work that we do. But like in that environment is honestly almost on her. I know. And I don't know how long it took her to get to that point, but like she does start to drop these little things like at one point she's like I'm not allowed to like get out of bed before him in the morning. And again, her friends are like lots. That's kind of weird, but like your relationship you guys do you.

23:32Yeah. And then it starts getting more concerning where she's like we have sex every single day. Sometimes multiple times a day. And if it doesn't happen, he finds it somewhere else. Every day, which is like all of her friends were like, girl, you okay? Like it's wild. And I think that like I think he must have known that she was starting to share because or this, I mean, we see this in so many abusive relationships, but like this idea that we get in the documentary where he talks about one of her friends talks about how she's not allowed to like hang out for more than like two hours or three hours. And he starts because you start calling and calling and calling. And I think I was thinking about like what that is is like I don't think it's that they want to be with them. It's like in an hour, everyone's catching up, right? Everyone's talking. But like the more time you give them to share and share, it's a comfortable level. Like when my dad would like let us rough house and he's like, okay, but after 15 minutes, like you're going to hurt yourself because you're going to get too comfortable. Like you're going to like push the limits because you're in this place of like you're in

24:33the zone. Yeah. And you will push yourself and push yourself until someone gets hurt. And like that's essentially the same thing, but emotionally. Like she's going to be so comfortable that she's going to open it up and it's going to expose him. Or she's going to eat also like the longer you're out of the bubble and you hear you realize that what your your life is weird. Yeah. Like, oh wait, that's not okay. You and your husband your husband doesn't make you have sex with them every single day. Oh, your husband doesn't make you like, oh my God, maybe there is something. Like I feel like it's wrong, but I'm being told it's not the affirmation that like, yeah, this is so much of why someone in a relationship they'll give you whatever excuse they want to keep you away from people. It's isolation. But yeah, isolation is for a reason. Put the excuses aside. Go out, go beyond the bubbles. What I would suggest to people is spend more time. Time outside and I think you realize what's happening inside is not right. And I think more and more that was starting to happen for her. Now at some point the relationship, like I had to have looked good from the outside,

25:34right? Like they're getting married. People are happy for her. I'm her family showing up to the wedding. The church seems to be doing like well. Yeah. But it starts like really deteriorating and it seems like that began to happen. At least the way they position in the documentary because he starts pushing her more and more. Whatever was happening before in their marriage, he gets to this point where he's pushing her sexually. And like I feel like this breaking point was when he was like asking her like, you know, if you had to kiss any of your friends. And like the way he does this made me want to crawl out of my skin because she's like, what? No, no, I don't. I don't. But he pushes and pushes. And then she says a name of like a very close friend of hers and then he flips the way he put her and him in a group chat with that friend was psychotic. And it's like the way he tried to like control the story of like, okay, I'm going to put you in this friend and I'm going to talk about how you're crazy and you're leaving.

26:37And she's like, I just wanted to go see my sister. Yeah. Like what are you talking about? You are actually crazy. Again, and it's all about God. Like you're not being godly. And no man would stand for this. It was unbelievable. And she's starting to move more and more away. And this is when we get like the first, I don't know how much violence she was experiencing. But the first thing we see in the documentary is like, there's a point where he threatens to come to her sisters with a gun. I mean, I think what he says is I'm armed and ready. In the documentary, I think they show an image of a gun. Yeah. I'm making the end prints. I just talk in affidavits later about him, like, her just going to go and shoot him. So anyways, unbelievable. And so this is where we get that violence that's being threatened. Right. Because up until now, it's like psychological or seems like that's all we know about that. That's all we've seen in the documentary at least. So we really end episode one at that point. Yeah. I was hooked. So episode two, we open with, you know, this like beautiful sermon where he is talking

27:42about obey those who have authority over you because no authority exists without God's permission. And again, this is the theme throughout. God has anointed him. God must have given him authority. And this is the thing that I'm like, I don't know why people believe because like also in the Bible, it's like beware of false profit. And so like, I want to make sure that comes through this. I watched this documentary the first time with your sister, which was, oh, did you really? Yeah. We watched it together because like you came, like you would text this night before we came into work the next day and you were like, we're going to talk about this. You guys should watch them. We're like, well, why not? So we watched it together. And that was something that we both like paused and we're like, so this is kind of like an aura Boris. It's its own tale, right? It's like you're anointed by God because God told you you're anointed. So you're anointed by God because you're like, it was really hard. And I think this might be like a good time to like talk a little bit about what a non-denominable

28:44church is. Like, yeah. Like, to a certain extent in this non-denominational church, that's all he needs, right? Like is the belief that he is anointed by God to do this in a lot of non-denominational churches. And that's just literally a like governing body that like specifically ordains or teaches and trains through a program. Like there are a lot of churches that are non-denominational that like are kind of just started by people and stop. And like that, I don't know J.P. Miller's like theological, seminary educational history. But like, I got some details coming here. I didn't move. But like, I know that like we both kind of sat there and were like, you know, like he's saying this and he's because he's saying he's proving it and that's really the only proof we have. And in this sort of culture, that is a lot of times all there is and enough.

29:45I, yeah. So like we, and we'll get to this a little bit later because we, we kind of get revealed I think in episode two or three that like the structure of their church is just like, oh, I have that written down already. Bro, it's a business like you own a business. Yeah, because we're going to get ahead of ourselves. But yes, essentially, and I can talk more to that as well. But yeah, so it's not like there's this like this body of people who have decided that you are God has told them God told no one but you that you and like maybe there are people in your life who have supported that like, oh, that would have been calling that would have been his father, which we can talk about. I will get to the documents. So like there are likely like people affirming that like feel of calling on his life. But like as far as like were there like things he boxes he had to tick to get there. I would guess not really. So obey those have authority. God only gives authority. A wife should always honor and respect her husbands. And it, he basically is like, and it's not just honor and respect is what all these

30:47be come about is sex sex. If you're not fulfilling your husband, someone else is going to. I don't know when it is that he, I think it's in this one. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. If you like don't meet the needs of your husband, Satan's going to come and give him 20 things. But the end of the day. And I'm like, wait, does Satan not come normally? Or it's like, and I think later he basically is like, but then you don't have the self control to like turn Satan away. And I'm like, bro, that's your grown ass man. And also like putting the mindset in like, but you're a child of God, so shouldn't you? Like by your own, by your own teaching, you actually should have that power. Well, not if your wife doesn't have sex with you that day. So I just like, I, this is what he is. And again, we didn't grow up in a world where this was like that crazy to hear. No. And again, like coming back to this is a tiny little grain of sand that is horrible amongst a thing, a bunch of stuff that is completely like good is like a stretch, but like benign,

31:50right? Like not imminently harmful. And the other stuff, yeah, the other stuff is like, oh, that kind of makes sense. Yeah. Like this, he wouldn't just slip in some weird shit. Yeah. He's a pastor. And like episode two really becomes about what he's like forcing her to do to meet his sexual needs. Because I think the whole episode is how help mate, which I had never heard before. Oh, it's. What? It's like, it could be a translation for like literally Genesis and Adam and Eve. Like in like the help mate or help mate is like what at like in some translations is what Eve is to Adam. Like it, it goes back to like the very core of like humanity in like how like biblical. People in church. I don't want to say biblical scholars because there's like a lot of debate about it. But like it is in translations as like the wife is a help mate or a help mate. And like that is the core of humanity and what partnership is in a lot of translations and in a lot of denominations and non-denominational churches is like that is the wording and that

32:52is the thought process and that is all the way back to the very first book of the Bible. I was a pastor's wife for a long time guys. Oh, yeah. Do people know that? I feel like this is a good time for me. I'm really glad. I guess I didn't. I'm like, obviously, I've known you for 38 years. You want to give like a quick, quick history. Sure. Ashen, I grew up in the same church. The church that we grew up in, my dad had been going to since he was 16. So I like grew up, my dad grew up in a church. My dad was an associate pastor, which like again, where this was like what I would consider a mega church. Especially in like the 80s and 90s. Yeah. I mean, they had the televangelist. They were in other countries. They were like, there was a television network. Our church sat like over 2,000 people. Yeah. And so your parents are deep in it. My dad worked there. I like lived on the property of the church. Yeah, naturally. My mom was the worship leader. My entire childhood. My dad was like, head usher.

33:52I started on a worship team when I was 11. And then was on a worship team. Essentially until I left the church when I was like in my late 20s, I met my husband there. Justin grew up with us as well. His family started going there when he was like two. So we all grew up together. We were on a worship team together. I thankfully cannot sing. So you'll never get a picture of me on stage. I was like, let's get pictures of you guys working together. I was like, oh, no, she wasn't there. No, no. I think you still have like the little bit of the snobby worship team in you. We're like, no, no, no, no, she's not on the team. But our church went through a lot of turmoil around our high school years. I, there were church splits. There were pastors leaving. There was different versions of like the church we grew up in. I dabbled in a little bit of all of them. I, um, I was gone. You were gone. I was out. Justin and I got married also really young.

34:52And we started going to a different church. We stayed there until I was like 29, I think 28 or 29. Um, left for a lot of different reasons. But while we were there, I was also a worship pastor there. He became ordained and he, um, was an associate pastor there for I think four or five years. And so four or five years, he, I was, he was a pastor. I was worship leader. I was a pastor's wife. Um, we like Justin, you guys, Justin's cool. Justin's cool. We're good. No, we're all good. We're good. We're safe. We're safe. Um, but like I, so I, as recently as legitimately 10 years ago, like was, I could close, I could like close my eyes and put myself in solid rock church because I went to a church that was like based on like the videos and pictures that I've seen, like not that rough, not far off. Like this, honestly, like the stage looked really similar. It's the one that I was on most recently. Like the size of the church looked really similar. Um, the comparison, especially as I get into like the structure and like what happened

35:52is kind of wild. So it's not like I, I, I, I think what I was seeing in there and why I felt so like, oh my god, I like, I was in this church. It's because of things that happen that you don't even know about. It's a one for one. Just even the structure and like the, I mean, kind of unbelievable. Oh, also speaking of this is back to the like your, your own authority. You're the one who just told me. So the like head of our church, like founder of our church was a doctor, whatever, whatever. And yeah, and you're like, you know, he wasn't like he didn't actually have like a PhD or anything. And I was like, wait, what? You're like, a couple of years ago. So doctor was in it because like we also called him doctor. Yeah. Like all the time. Um, and you're like, so doctor was in a doctor and I was like, girl, where are you? Where are you? Like she went. Yeah, he made his own Bible college and made himself a doctor. And I was like, you gotta be freaking kidding me. Wait, how did we? I went off on like a tangent about Bible translations and then had to tell people that I helped

36:53me. Yeah. In this episode, the next wild part that we got. So all this is like very much focused on like her meeting his sexual needs. Do you want to talk about the testosterone? This I put in so many levels, including like as a vocalist, the worst leader. Like she's like on stage, she's struggling. She's losing her voice. Her hair is falling out. And everyone's like, oh, she's just like going through it. Well, because also it's like, I'm on, you know, I'm on some med and we, we know he is been very open about like, oh, she has these mental health struggles. I'm sure she was too. And, you know, we all know she had been committed by him before. And so you kind of think, and I think they do this strategically in the documentary. You like think you're like, oh, it must be had to do all that. I don't know what I don't know. I don't know what that is. At some point in time, like some of the medications, like she's concerned about weight gain. And like she's feeling self conscious because of some of the medication she's on. You're like, oh, okay. And then you see her lose her voice. And then someone that was on the team with her and one of her close friends was like,

37:54all of a sudden, like her range was gone. Like when her voice came back, it was like, she had a completely different voice. And I was like, I know like when I'm sick, like my voice can change. And I can lose like, especially when I was singing a lot. Like I could lose like a couple of like high notes or low notes, whatever. No, she lost her range because she was taking testosterone. And her voice was like physically lowering from taking testosterone because he wanted her to take testosterone. So she could keep up with him sexually. Him. I like, I, this is the point where I was like, I mean, I hated him throughout. But I was like, you gotta be like the abuse. She at some point is like, I am physically, sexually, emotionally, financial, like all this type of abuse. And I think it gets lumped into physically, but the medical abuse. Yeah. The way that the medical system was used, they talk about him like withholding her meds. Just say like he was, it's, it's mentioned early when they talk about her initial

38:57diagnosis, but like he like writes to her and you see like a snippet of that, like email or letter or whatever where he's like, you know, this is a lot for me to bear to, you know, like I am now responsible for like making sure you take your meds. And like, I didn't ask you, right? Didn't ask you to do that. But it seems like you're making that your job. And like in making that his job, he also uses it as another tool of manipulation and coercion. And the fact that it's like, like if it's going to be his job, he's going to make it work for him too. Oh, so she could do it every day. How many years was she with him? Right. So now he's injecting her with hormones. And this is the point I, we skipped this early on because they like make it, make a light mention of it. So not only is he forcing her to do this when he makes a parody song about her losing her voice.

39:57I mean, all the parodies were honestly like incredibly crammed, but that one was especially horrific, especially when you like realize that song she's doing it. Like it's not she wanted to do like you forced her to do this thing that she doesn't want to do to do sexual actually. She does. She thinks that she doesn't want to do and then makes her sing about something she doesn't want to do. And yeah, and then you have to like joke about it because she can't like eyes. If that whole parody song thing was so weird and don't worry, it comes back again. Good. Good. Awesome. So this brings me to text message gate, which is, which is where, which is where I got dropped in initially at 926 PM with a text message, which I have extra stories about. So there is this woman who is a pastor at their church as well. She got brought in when the first affair happened like with Micah, right? He like brings in this other pastor. Can use the church needs stability. They need somebody who's just like a seasoned pastor who's going to like help them weather this storm, usher them through these trying times.

41:00And so it seems like she's she's there for a while. Well, she one day is at home, but it sounds like she has like a work, a church phone. And out of nowhere, sounds like this was not a normal thing. The work phone starts blowing up. And she realizes she is seeing a text chain between JP and his best friend, Mark Coughin, right? Now, she's like, JP is in bed with Micah at the time. He's like, I mean, based on based on like based on the messages. While he's instructing Mark to go like pick up this other young woman from the airport, because apparently she is coming to see him, which first introduce this Mark's role. Like, I mean, we know he's his best friend. He uses best man the wedding. But I have a lot of questions about Mark, his loyalty to JP, what he's willing, why he's

42:02willing to do this. He's someone I'm very interested in. But this is when the other pastor realizes like, Oh my God, this thing, this thing that I thought had stopped the reason I came in because it had stopped to fix things has never stopped, which I, this is where I texted you. I was like, I will believe in God again. If like all of his energy can be directed into like exposing dirty pastors because this is not the first time I've seen something weird like this happen. So there are two other stories, one of them personal. I mean, I don't know if you've ever heard the story. So there is this episode of I'm you know I'm obsessed with the podcast betrayal. Oh, yes. Yes. So there is, oh shoot, hang on, I got to find her name. There is an episode that I'm obsessed with. I've listened to it like three times. Oh, Tracy is the episode from September of 2025. And her whole betrayal story is about this church in the south in like the 90s and traces of fake name. You don't get the real names.

43:03But it's, I called the angel Nathan story because her story has to do it. Basically like she finds out her husband who is the pastor was like having this affair because this anonymous angel Nathan starts sending people in the congregation like letters. And he starts out with the pastor is like, you need to admit to this, like come clean to your congregation and like we're good. Otherwise, I've got recordings of you and this other woman. That I'm going to release an angel Nathan does. So like it's another one of these like how did we get this? This next one is less exposing pastors. I know. Yeah. I have so many thoughts on that. Less exposing pastors. And so when my dad worked in a church in South Carolina. Oh, interesting. The brief time in our life we lived in South Carolina. My, there was like this like freak thing where someone in the church was like talking would just shit about my dad. But like the the the the phone lines got crossed or something the machine, the voice no machine started recording and like it recorded the whole thing.

44:07So I don't know what like magical stuff is going on, but there is someone. It's like the opposite of there. It's like the opposite of you messing everything tech up. Yeah. God is here to like actually make tech work weirdly. He's like not in my house. No, no, no, no, no. So I am like all for this. But so this is when she, this is when the other pastor finds out like, oh, you are full of shit. Like you've done a great job at putting on the show, making people think that you are sincere and none of it has been real. She can like see through the mess. And I don't know what's unclear is like how many affairs he's had over the years. Because it's not just one or two based on every implication in the entire documentary. Yes. And keep touching my little, my cute little papers back here. It's like and scare me. It seems like there is a lot happening. And this is just, this is like, it's not like at first, I think it's easy to believe.

45:11Like, oh, he's got these two lives that are conflicting, right? He's, he's, as he says, struggling with lust or whatever. And what you, I think see as you get into episode two and the episode three, is it really feels like this entire church, it's not a guy who's conflicted. The church and the organization, all of that feels like it is made to allow him to just be a TV person. Right. I was going to say because this is the part that I had made some notes on because the pastor who like gets his magical mystical spiritual sink. She does what I think anybody in that position would do. And she calls the elders of the church, which like the elders would be like in theory, not necessarily a governing body, but like a body of people in the church who are like represent the people of the church. Yes. And I think she says like they are the, they are representing the congregation.

46:11Like they are the ones who like in churches that I've been in, like they've been the ones who have been like called to like, hey, like we think this pastor should step down. We're going to have like a congregational vote about it or whatever. And like they're the ones who kind of act in a way as a governing body. Different churches that set up different ways, the nominations specifically have like boards and actual governing bodies, non-denominational again, kind of a free for all. But like, I know I was like, wait, it's not just one guy. Like I thought, like what a church of church. I said, what have a governing, oh, I mean, they have a church has had like a board, but it was all like, it was like all people, including with each other to a certain extent until they stop. Anyway, but this one, like these elders, while they were like represented as a congregation, we're not a governing body in that they had zero power. They were just like, for sure, essentially, like, like not even to support the pastor, just to make it look like he had a governing body almost. Right. It's to like, it's to make, it's why it's like, it's bananas to me.

47:13And now we're getting into like financial stuff, but like, like when I started season of justice. So like the nonprofit has to submit its financials, like every year to be a nonprofit, like you have to know where your money is coming from exactly where it's going to. Like, like how are you using your funds? How much how much of the funds are just sitting there? Who's getting paid? What? What are your expenses? All that is known. It is wild to me. That is not necessary for churches. As a congregant who is tithing, I assume, like giving time the way they use volunteers, I would want to know. And I don't know why more people don't kind of demand this of their churches, especially these mega churches. Where's it going? I would like to as vaguely as possible remind you that the first time our church went through something major, it was because people didn't want those things to come to light. I'll wait. I didn't. Really? Yeah. Like people were a governing body was saying that the church essentially was not functional

48:16at the size that it was for like the space that it was in and like the staff that it had, which like obviously affects you quite a lot. Yes. Or what have affected you quite a lot. And when they ask like, okay, like what does that number need to be? Like, can we have like a financial campaign where we can tell the members where we are? And like let them know that this is the state that the church is in. That was not something that everyone was comfortable. No, being being publicized. Interesting. There was a lot of other things that went into that. But like that was like something that contributed to like why the pastor that we had at the time no longer was at the church. And like we can talk about that more with like actual names and stuff, but like not on Mike. Yeah. I mean, I knew it was like about money and stuff, but like I thought it was a. Yeah. Okay. Follow a conversation. Yeah. So like off bike, but that's kind of like what was I was like so surprised and frustrated and not surprised at all about when she did go to the elders was like, hey.

49:25This size going off. Fix it. And they're like, we can't do anything. Hands are tied. Yeah. Sorry. Too bad. So sad. Now, then we so we get into this idea that like, okay, she's like, well, I'm out. Yeah. Church is still his still yours. What is he doing with this church? What is he? What is he doing as far as like affairs go? Now, I don't know. We have no idea who this young woman was who was coming into town to me in because she's coming from an airport. I assume it is not she's not from around here. Susie Skinner, who we will talk about next. Yeah. So Susie Skinner is his next alleged affair. Susie, of course married and in the congregation and in the congregation, she starts going to the church. I doesn't sound like her husband was really going to the church. I don't know how much autonomy her husband had. Right. So they met because she was like his like, he was in physical therapy and she met him.

50:28He had like an accident where he had lost a lot of mobility. Will chair bound will chair bound. He hired her or like they met in physical therapy or she was like helping him in some way and they hit it off and got married. Yes. So she decides to start going to this church. And again, it might be one of those things where he would come sometimes, whatever, but seems like she was really, really involved. Yeah. And this is the affair like, Mike clearly finds out about this and gives JP multiple ultimatums, multiple chances to end it, which she's telling people he does not. And I don't think they were being secretive about it because right like Mike's brother ends up touching them. And he says in the documentary where they're like holding hands and he's like, oh, he like confront them. And because they're not being secretive, somehow it gets back to Susie's husband, Chris. Yeah. And he also like, again, they're not being secretive. What he says, I think she, the documentary is that she thinks that the pastor has a crush on her.

51:33Yeah. So I don't know what she's framing. I don't know what he has experienced. But at the same time, Chris is sisters in the documentary and she's like, he's feeling like his care is like, oh, yeah, is like lacking. He's not getting showered as much like Susie is clearly distracted by something at that time. And so he makes it a point to go to the church once a day, confront the pastor, basically like leave my wife alone. And I don't know, it doesn't say exactly how long, but like weeks, a month. And we also don't know what happened when he went to the church. We get nothing about that. We just know that his plan was to go to the church and confront JP, which I have a feeling the only people who would be in that room or JP, him, if they allowed their wives, Micah's no longer here to talk about it. And Susie isn't going to talk about it for reasons we'll get to. Anyway, so we know that Chris at least has intentions to go confront JP. And at some point in time, after he states that intention, whether he makes it to church,

52:37talks to him, whether what their conversation is regardless, after that point, he dies. How does he die? Yeah. He drowns at the bottom of his apartment complex or like community swimming pool. He's in his wheelchair and it goes in by some accident, by some intention. The foul play is not suspected in his case. But this was the second text message I sang. So I said, JP was first at the scene. The first people to show up, the first people that Susie called, JP and Micah together, but they show up before Chris's family has any idea that he's side. It's the pastor of your church. That's the thing that I kind of butted up against when I watched it reading your text was like,

53:37I don't not get it in that environment. We're like, I would a thousand percent still call my family, but I think my family's pastor, someone of comfort, someone of like outside the circle, but close enough for like guidance. But I don't know if the one, but like the the pastor that your husband just confronted because that's where I get hung up on it because that's different. Yeah. This is where when Mads first was like, hey, I think maybe we should cover this case, because I'll give everyone I think Arty knows that spoiler alert episode three, Susie's Skinner and JP get married. I was like, so you're telling me that her husband dies and his wife die and now they're married and and everyone's okay with it. What does that? And Mads is like, yes. You got it girl. It's like, okay, okay. So we kind of get, they touch on it so briefly. And I had been reading some articles and stuff like that dug into his death a little bit and

54:39it was like, I guess he had been like, supposedly allegedly making complaints to the community about like they're not being like proper access for people like in wheelchairs to be able to get to the pool. Why the pool? Why that way? Was it an accident? Was it intentional? Because he's not being taken care of. He feels like the one thing he has is like, no one knows. As far as I know, I don't believe he left a note or told anyone. So we're left to just, there's just another strange thing in a case full of strange things. In 2024, a man was killed by the FBI and to this day, the authorities have refused to say why. He was a father, an ex-husband, and a Russian-born American citizen. He just seemed like a lonely guy and he needed a friend and he kind of talked about death, didn't he? He talked about you just never know when it's your time.

55:40I'm CNN investigative reporter Isabel Chapman, host of the new limited series, Civilian or Spy. They noticed that he was communicating with people that were of concern to the FBI. Oh my god, Jesus. Head over to the CNN Presents Feed and listen to our three-part series. Civilian or Spy. Available wherever you get your podcasts. The app seamlessly consolidates checking savings, loans, and investments into one clear dashboard. To give a complete, real-time view of your financial picture. It even sets customizable budgets and

56:40sends instant alerts for upcoming bills, large transactions, or low balances. Stop paying for things that go unused and regain full control of monthly spending. Rocket money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Let Rocket money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at RocketMoney.com slash crime junkie. That's RocketMoney.com slash crime junkie. RocketMoney.com slash crime junkie. The strangest thing of all, though, was the service about him, which I don't know if it happened before or after he died. Right, so it's kind of confusing the documentary because they cut it really close to the funeral service for Chris. Yeah. It's not part of it. The stage is completely different. He's wearing a different outfit, but I think it was a different service. I don't know if it's, again, 3.4 after. But we don't know when it was. Yeah, you want to say what he says? I don't have the direct- Whoa, I do. I just have hot mama quote on my notebook. Yeah, if this guy

57:43can get this hot mama in a wheelchair, you have no excuse. I literally wrote what? Like, like, I think that's the moment when me and Alyssa, I literally just like pause and I was like, let's just sit with that for a minute. What? Maybe that was the moment that he was like, I think this guy might be coming for my wife. Like, especially, again, we don't know when that happened in time, especially if that happened prior to Chris's death. So also like, you don't want people to be self-deprecating, but like, you're being a super. Yes, a super. I can't. So I don't think he's hiding anything. Like, again, if you're looking for it, I think that it's pretty obvious what's going on. And so this is when Micah gives him yet another ultimatum, but she doesn't leave. She does this

58:45contract, which I find heartbreaking because this happens all the time. I've seen this happen. And I don't really understand it. I think like, so she basically says, like, makes this list where it's like, hey, if any of this stuff happens, I'm out. I'm out. I know she told him that before. If you do it again, I'm out. Yeah. It's the line gets crossed, the line gets crossed. Well, I mean, honestly, the expectation is if you are in a committed relationship with someone and you have shared goals and outcomes for the relationship, none of that needs to be set. Yes. That's just the expectation and the social contract between two people who love each other. But it's like the list of five things that's like, if any of this happens again, like the first thing is like, you know, she gets the house. He promises to go on marriage retreats. They're going to do counseling weekly. He's going to honor her in any way with anything, anytime. It says he'd even be willing to adopt a kid. If

59:46that's what she wants, smiley face, I saw that. The thing I, the thing I can appreciate about what she was probably trying to do is one of the ways she was being controlled was financially. If she left as a pastor's wife who had been in the church and she was 18 who had no career outside of the church, she was financially destroyed. She had nothing. So this point number one, where it's like, I want something written down. I mean, this document wouldn't have counted. But like, I think she felt this was some kind of protection for her. And so like, I am sympathetic to that because I think part of me at first when I was like, what's a piece of paper? He doesn't care about your piece of paper marriage or to me. He doesn't care about any of that. Why do this? I think it's really easy to be that. I'm like, she's trying. I think she knows it's going to happen again. And I think what she's trying to do is build herself any sort of life raft she can. Yes, for afterwards. Because she knows it's going to happen again. She knows it's going to be hard. And I think everything she was like

1:00:50scared of and anticipated is ended up like coming to fruition. Oh, this is the moment too, where you get that like weird video of them in the car where he's like speaking in third person. And he's like out of third person, by the way, I like, I a list of us like, why was he speaking in third person when we watched it together? And I was like, huh, yeah. And then when I watched it again, I was like, not all the time because he's like, somebody at the first lady of the church and she's like, who's the first lady? I was like, you're the first lady. And I was like, she, and he's like, she loves the pastor. I was like, what is happening right now? I don't even know what that, to me, that was a little bit like the crying on the grass video where I was like, actually, can we talk about that more? Yeah, I was like, I need, I would love if someone could post the whole video. I give us some context of like, when this happened, what like, yeah, anyway, I don't know. And I don't know if it's in that video or somewhere else, but like we get this idea. And again, this is him being the victim. And I think he, he became an expert at manipulating the people around

1:01:51him. But like only in that bubble, like the congregation, the people who like had his same world, you, a world you that he built, but he makes, make, make, himself the victim because you know, why would you do this? Like you have everything. And he's like, I was scared you were going to leave me. Somehow it's like her fault that he continues to do this. And I like, I only reiterate it because I think this is such a common tactic with abusers is to make themselves the victim over. And I actually think they do see themselves as the victim. Yeah, maybe not carte blanche, maybe not everybody, but like, I think a large part, percent of them for sure. Yeah, I don't, I think there are people who are just blatantly boys and they know it. But I think there are other people who, I like the best way I can describe it is like lie so much they start, they start losing the truth. Like they no longer see the reality

1:02:53of like who isn't is not the victim. Yeah, the reality is completely broken by like the lies that they have not only told other people, but they've told them so many times that they've begun to believe the lies themselves. In that video, she's like, what would you do to like get me back or keep, keep me? And I thought his answer was so interesting. He says that I would put myself in a psych ward until they release me. And I was like, Oh, to you, that's the worst possible punishment. The thing that you've already done to her yet, that is the thing. And I was like, how telling the thing that you keep doing is the thing that you say is like, I would do anything to get you back. I would even put myself in a psych ward because my god, can you imagine? So the rest of the episode really is again, we're diving into like his insatiable sexual appetite. And I would like to point out that we also hear a lot of these stories from mycas friends,

1:03:58which again, like I would like to stress, this is huge, especially the stories that she that like, they tell towards the end of this episode, which are harrowing in a way that I was not expecting. I was not prepared for it. But like we get a lot more of his like preaching in this too. I have a quote, he says, there's incredible danger in unmet needs. A fantastic marriage is simply this. My needs are being met today. Everything is about like his needs being met. When your husband wants sex, God does not send an angel from heaven to take care of that. Like basically it's like, it's your freaking job. And he says the sin that has most, the sin that has the most horrifying results in your life is sexual immorality. And he says denying sex leads to sexual immorality. So like deny sex is leads to one of the greatest sins. Oh, and this is where he was like, don't deny sex. And then Satan won't be able to tempt you because of your lack of self control. And then oh, he's like a man doesn't want to be rejected more than once unless you repent for it. His heart gets hard. And I was like, boo, your hard heart is not the hard thing of you.

1:05:04That I'm right about right now. Like what is happening? No, totally. And then my last quote from this like these like sermons is when he was like, what are you saying? For now, at least for now. The only reason a man would not want to touch or hold a woman is that man because he isn't like her. The only reason he doesn't like her. Her mouth is because of her mouth. Mm hmm. Girl, we talk for a living. Yes. I was shocked. Like I think that up until this point, when we talk about the sexual abuse, I was thinking the abuse of him demanding four times a day, five times a day, sometimes what they talked about every single day. And if not with her, then someone and I, that's terrible abuse. But what is described next is that he basically forces her into encounters with random people that he haze those people, whether that's touching her. One of her friends describes

1:06:08like him paying someone to finish on her. And like the way she said that my could describe it was like she didn't have enough like soap in the world. There was nothing she could do to make herself feel clean after that. In the documentary, they show her like general writings and one time she says at one point, he picked up a couple of unhoused people for a three-some. It's like this was about degrading her. I was controlling her. I was just about say like when I was watching with the list, I was like, this is not inherently sexual for him anymore. This is him exerting his control and his power and showing her how much he can do to her. And she has she can do nothing about it. And a lot of we, we move into episode three and we get this like a little bit of backstory that leaves so many questions to be answered. That pile, right? We'll come back to the pile. But there's this allegation that like maybe JP was abused by his

1:07:08father. And that is what, again, when it comes to like him being a victim, like that is what has caused him to be the way that he is. And so we hear that like his father, who was also a pastor, had gotten into some trouble maybe in the past, but it was like very, very glossed over. Like it was a quick like snippet in the show and then they kind of moved on. So it's one of the things that I like dug into more later. But really episode three is about her leaving, which we know is the most dangerous time. And a person who's being abused life. We get a little bit of the timeline like this finally brings us up to the actual like day. And by this point, she has moved out. Now what I found out is that she had apparently threatened divorce before or he might be even filed, but then like he convinced her to undo it. Which is interesting because of some of like the asset stuff and what was happening convinced her to undo it. Then he goes to this other period where the stalking the harassment doesn't stop. I mean,

1:08:15this is where finding out that he is putting tracking devices on her. He's following her. Sushing her tires. Sushing her tires. And again, like the, you know, there's like 53 calls at one point. I mean, it is nonstop. She ends up moving out. She's going to live with somebody else. He has her committed again. And at this time, they're kind of vague and they're like, they reference like, oh, he's like taking her stuff like maybe he's, oh, he's posting as her on social media to make it seem like hundreds of pictures, they say of them together, making everything seem like beautiful and wonderful and like creating this image. And they don't really talk about the other stuff. Like, what was he doing with her stuff? Why did he take her stuff? Like in the documentary, as I was watching, I was like, oh, this is just about control. I think it was about something else that I'll get to. But he has her committed. She gets out again. Because it sounds like the doctors even realize like, this is more of like the narrative. Yeah, which I, that's what I, again, when I go back to like, what is this 1856? Like back in the day when you're like, oh, my wife's hysterical,

1:09:20just like lock her away. How? And like, you might talk about this later, but like in the documentary, they do confirm that she does get a diagnosis of a form of bipolar, correct? This is what I was like a little, I think so. Because I want to say there is at least one medical document that they show in the documentary that states that. But what I don't know, like, house, what the document is. I know. That's where I was. That's where I, I'm always so cautious, especially in something like this of like, oh, we saw one shot. So many times you can, if someone gives you a medical history to say this person has bipolar and that is not verified. Now she's in these facilities, which should be verified. I mean, on the flip side, like, I'm adopted, my kids are adopted. Medical forms are a lot of fun for us because like, I'm sure there are things in my medical history that I simply do not know about that can never be verified. And I just have to fill the form out as best as I know. And like, that's how it is for my kids too. And on the flip side, like, you can also write that there are issues when no issues exist. And that's where I like,

1:10:22without digging into her medical records, the way that her family spoke on the documentary, it seemed like they believed there was something. They also supported some sort of diagnosis. Yeah, but they're, I mean, they're very open in that like what led her to that? And like, what are the contributing factors that if she had like these diagnosis, like, yeah, let's do it. You get it. So this brings us to she filed, she dismissed, she is now done, done, super done. And this is where we meet my new hero, Regina Ward, Regina Ward. I also loved her. I'm so glad she's here. I think everyone loves Regina Ward. Because she is her lawyer and we get her and she's like, I don't like anyone that tries to take advantage of, I think she said the week, the meek, the poor, and I was like, she's her divorce attorney and she's not

1:11:22putting up with anything. And what she says, I said she made the hero well. So she on behalf of Micah files and JP gets served on April 25, two days later is when Micah dies. And the timeline, this is this is the crux of the case. It's like, everyone did she do it. Her family alleges in the documentary like they don't think that someone else wasn't involved. Like they they cannot let that go. But everyone the police have ruled it a suicide. The um, Sheriff's office put out this like nifty proof, proof PowerPoint that has been shared with everyone that in their eyes explains everything. So what we have is that day she's supposed to go to work at like noon. That's what Diana says in the documentary, Diana's the woman she's living with. What I would love is like verification of that.

1:12:24What time did her shift start? Because what I find so interesting is that why put on your uniform? If you're not going to and like she immediately does not go to work. She leaves at the time. And you can 1138. I said you can correct me at any point in time. She leaves at a time where it's like, oh, depending on how far away her work is, like that's an appropriate time to show up for a 12 o'clock shift. So in her uniform that 1138, like, uh, doorbell cam leaves her apartment. 1212, she pulls into the pawn shop. This pawn shop is where the gun is purchased. Now what I think is interesting is I mapped her apartment to the pawn shop. It's a nine to ten minute drive. But it's 34 minutes before she pulls in. So I don't I don't know where she was. Why like was there another stop? Was it? Did you map where she worked? I didn't do that. Was did yeah, did she just like go to work first and then but it's weird. So but she gets she pulls in. She's at the counter. I mean, she knew exactly what

1:13:27she was going in for. She's at the counter at 1213. 1234. She's leaving the lot. Now again, I don't know did it take time. I assume they have to look at her. I hope they had to look at her ID by this gun. But like at 1234, she has to leave the lot. At 106, we pick her car up on a flock camera and she's like driving in the direction of where she'll ultimately be found. So it's 40 minutes from Dick's to where the flock camera is. 127. She's at a gas station and that like all kind of lines up. And then it's like 39 to 44 minutes from the gas station to the park. So I was like trying to do the math of like when she leaves the gas station. Like does she go directly to the park? Yeah. And it she should arrive if she goes right away. And this is like her or the other calculation. She's driving a little bit faster. But if she goes exactly like the speed limit, she should be getting to the park. And it takes a five minute walk from where her car was to the like the coordinates where

1:14:28she was found. She should be at the coordinates where she's found at 221. The 911 call comes in at 254. There's time. Now there is a witness who has come forward or came forward later that was like I heard crying before I heard a shot. But we know the shot comes after she calls 911. So like I just again, there's like missing time. Is this I'm sitting in my car. I'm building up the courage. I'm just playing sitting with what I'm about to do. Or is it something else? Her family has wondered. I it's what they like say in the documentary. We're like, was she lured there? Because also why go? It seems like I think something that they say in the documentary is like why here? Like why would you go all the way out here? So far that you have to call 911 to make sure people know where you are. I thought what I thought was interesting was it was like right over the state line like it's the north she's in North Carolina. Which causes maybe jurisdictional issues.

1:15:32But I like if what you want is for your family to find you and for this to be easy. Why there? Because she does take the steps to help her family find her. Like she calls 911. So that's what the coordinates are like tracked. You hear her voice on the 911 call. She sounds episode one. Open starts with it. I look the most of the call that I could find the most amount is like two minutes and 30 seconds. So it also isn't just like, Hey, here I am about to do this. Hang up. It's it's two minutes of her trying to figure out where she was at the very end. She says what she's about to do. And apparently hangs up before they can like they don't hear a shot or anything like that. Now they bring up some stuff in the doc that I thought was interesting. Which is like they find her body away from the shell casings. They also mentioned two spent shell casings. Which I can't find a ton of stuff about. But I'm like the witness here's one shot. She has one shot like she didn't shoot

1:16:33herself twice. Where did this other one come from? It is it like obviously then you have all the questions. Like are they casings from the same type of ammunition? Like do they belong to same like that is not in exactly is not in the police's PDF. The other thing what is in here I actually want to show you is a picture of the inside of her car. And there was something that stood out to me. The same thing with like why are you putting on your work uniform if this is your plan for the day? She also packed her lunch. Oh sandwich in a Ziplac like it's a fresh sandwich in a Ziplac bag. Isn't that weird? That's really weird. These are the things that her family it's not making sense to them. So naturally when this happens her family is immediately suspicious because her sister one of her sisters says that Micah said it if I am found with a bullet in my head

1:17:38I didn't do it. J.P. Did. She is found with a bullet in her head that that is like why say that and then do that too. So they have a ton of questions knowing that she the two days before had filed for divorce. The church was going to break apart. Everyone said if the church broke apart again everything that he had built it was it was done done. This is like a very uncrime junky question. But they didn't address it in the doc that J.P. Alibi like I'm sure this is like somewhere in like the PowerPoint but like they don't touch on that at all. At all in the documentary which I found really strange and like it took everything in my being not to Google because I knew you were already working on this. So they don't talk about it at all except for when the reporter from News Nation has like the one sit down with him and he's like I was at like the soccer game of the sporting thing like every 100 people saw me there at that Saturday. Well in this his timeline that we get from the police PowerPoint evidence PowerPoint is from Friday the 26th to Saturday the

1:18:4227th. So Friday he goes to Charleston South Carolina for this sporting event. They say this is supported by eyewitnesses so his claim that a bunch of people are there checks out on Friday though. A bunch of people are there and on Saturday so this is the day that she buys the gun and goes up to the park. What they have with the only thing that they've included is that they have him driving back to Myrtle Beach where they live and they have flock cameras of his truck. Now if you look at those like pictures the windows are like blacked. I cannot see anything. Now did I meticulously map the coordinates and the time for every single flock camera thing I did. I did. I figured you was and where sleep last night did you where this truck was is nowhere like it wasn't near the park like he couldn't have gotten the last flock sighting of the truck was at 222 and it's too far away to

1:19:45get to the park. Okay. So the truck is not there. What I find strange is that if they're saying he has such a solid alibi with they're not including for Saturday the actual day that matters is any phone data any like was anyone with him on that Saturday in that truck when did he get home who saw him after like to me this is all really important stuff and and even beyond him the other people connected to him. Yeah. Like like that he is the only person talked about in this document which I'll find interesting. We've we've mentioned him a few times and had questions but like where is Mark? And I do think that like Mark not Mark whatever there were other people who Micah felt like she was being followed by like it wasn't just JP. So I think this is meant to tell

1:20:46everyone like there's nothing to see here but to me this like I have a lot more questions. It also doesn't include is like Micah's stuff because what it shows is oh she you know like looked how to get to the pawn shop she looked up national parks near me but it doesn't say what time those searches happened it doesn't say what other things happen around there like what call she was making who she was in communication or even like did she like sit in her parking lot in the parking lot at her a part like where she was staying right where was she for those work when she Googled the pawn shop was she sold the pawn shop when she Googled parks like they have to have station when she do that like there's we know that she's in these different places but are these searches happening at those different places or was this like a long plot it out thing and I think again I think people would say well you know we're just worried about it all the evidence proves that only being her why are we even talking about this well then my question is why was he trying to collect like all her

1:21:46immediately the woman she was living with I loved because she seemed so sweet yes and when as soon as JP called was like I'm just gonna come pick up her stuff she's like um I'm not sure if I'll be home essentially I think called her siblings and was like get over there and get it and like I want her Bible I want her writings her journals like and that I could make you can write that off is like oh that's her husband he just wants her things it's when he calls the counselor she had been seeing was like um do you have some do you have any notes can I get I was like that's not that's not the thing you call oh my gosh Alyssa like pause she's like he can't do that because HIPAA and I was like I bet you anything she's a biblical counselor she is she said what it said and I was like as like she could hand them over and then she's like well because I'm a biblical counselor I don't need no you know you know you know that works too that's when I was like oh boo you're trying and the way and then he call well and then we get some of our best quotes from our new hero wall inductee when he called we got to talk about the sermon first yes the second

1:22:52she dies but she doesn't she's notified on a Saturday and on Sunday he's like I'm still going to preach and not only did he preach he preach is the whole sermon I did as usual I didn't realize he didn't tell them to the end yeah and he is acting totally normal totally fine he's on the piano having the time of his life they don't worry do their entire parody song about what was it like not finding something to the middle of your life or like oh in the middle of my life I finally found what I was searching for now it's like what was that and then at the very end he's like we're not gonna have an alter call we're not going to pray with you guys at the end instead I'm going to announce that my wife Micah has died it was self-induced I don't want you guys to no questions please ask questions I want you to leave quietly not talk to each other here on the property and like just know that this happened and like this is this is the point and Justin graciously

1:23:57reminded me that he was the one who was like have you seen the sermon when this case initially happened this is when I remember seeing this case pop up was like what is he doing because like again like I've been in these services like when there's something to say like you you do have to like time it well but this is bonkers the fact that he was on the stage doing music that morning the fact that he was on stage teaching that morning I think this also talks a lot so like speaks a lot to like the structure of the church like no one was going to tell him he couldn't do this yeah and so he got up and did the entire thing because he he had to get out he got out his narrative and then he proceeded to do that with everyone the text messages he was sending people were I mean you like the people talk about all the time catch a liar when they're like over explaining where he's like she is past I've been telling her for months like oh her family got involved I'm like oh no one also there's a moment where like you see him you see some of the text messages that he's sending to like her friends or like people in their circle and it's the same like

1:24:58he's copying pasting because he can't keep telling different like that's the only way he can keep his lies straight right like it was it was just like so calculated so he is used to manipulating everyone in his circle like he can play the victim he has them down but not her he cannot do that with this who as an attorney tapes the call oh my god I love her and the call is so good he calls and is like hey you were her I think you were her lawyer so and before he could even continue with his bizarre request she goes mm-hmm let's stop right there you probably have the exact quote I don't I'm a paraphrase but she's like you don't think she hired me you know she hired me because you got served force papers two days ago so let's just start off with the truth yeah and that's when I was like she is my new I want to be her when I grow up she is my new hero and he's

1:25:58like yeah you know what that I do call I think I did see your name and then he's like I oh he says clearly by the way you've been talking to me you've gotten one side of the story so this is when he's like I I'm gonna get her on my side that does not happen and so when that doesn't work he goes into the tears it's like the same tears that we got on the grass which distinctly I had this moment where I was like oh what I I've seen this before and I want to let I want to play with clip because I I made myself chuckle okay so this is him to her so it's like um have you seen winner lose no but you've talked about this show so many times it's a kid show

1:27:02on Disney that thing is one of the best kids shows it's made and forever and we get this moment as soon as I heard that I was like so he tries the tears the tears don't work he turns those off to be to be clear like coming back to like why he's calling Regina Ward like as divorce attorney is because he's like I really need every single thing that she ever gave you supporting why she wants to divorce me yes like he's like just get just why does she just hand me her file which is like which is an insane thing to think what happened like but a turning client privilege much but yeah I think he still thought he had a lot of authority because they were still married before she died which actually did give him a lot of authority

1:28:03there's been a ton of legal stuff since now luckily she didn't turn her file over to him she turned it over to the FBI along with I mean she downloaded like hundreds 511 sermons and that is when I was like you I love you and that's how I mean I that's how we get this like treasure trove in the documentary and get such like real pictures of who Michael was in life who JP is like what he talks about in his sermons so that it is a little bit how the documentary leaves off is that there is some kind of FBI investigation we hear from people guess I've been talked to I do know the FBI got and I don't know why for sure but jurisdiction because we're talking about two separate cases like it's not surprising to me and and he has no federal charge federal charges and those are for for lying to them during the course their investigation and then for cyber stalking

1:29:04and those are still ongoing because he was just arrested in like December 2025 yeah and they search they did a search of his home so again all like computers phones like all the things that I'm I'm wanting I feel exist somewhere in evidence yes now is there anything else that you want to talk about before I get to like my fun things I don't know if you want to talk about the news nation sit down where he brings out the binder his of his evidence which like evidence for what's our there's that weirdness but it wasn't like hey I kept all her medical records it's like this is my evidence and also like putting those things in those plastic sheet protectors is a pain in the ass he put work in the back I didn't even notice that they were in sheet protectors they're in like those plastic slips for me it was the moment he does the same thing right where he like tries to cry but then I love this guy gets these like what's going on like he's like I'm not going to like call it off just because you're crying like we're gonna like yeah the guy interviewing him is like there's something like your face is doing essentially

1:30:06right so but then he when he's like when he is there anything you would have done differently his reaction is like that's a really good question that's a really good question that's a really good question it's anger and then he goes I would never involve her family in any of her mental health problems yeah okay out of all the things you could have done I mean and knowing what you did to her like the blanket statement of us like I wish I could have been a safe place for her I wish I could like you could have done it any sort of like blanket generic statement and like no one would have batted an eye but you come out with that yeah I mean I could there's like a million more things I want to talk about but what I want to talk about more as that stack of paperwork you just picked up yeah I want to so this stuff is known it's not like I uncovered this but for length purposes or legal purpose I don't know why Netflix didn't include

1:31:09what I think there's a handful of things that I found really interesting so one of the biggest things that I as I was watching this I kept waiting for right like I'm like you get these sit-downs of people and I'm like when are we getting his first wife when are we getting out like we get nothing I understand not having anything about his kids in the documentary like they do nothing percent but I'm like she is like very silent in this so I was like I mean either she's you know without knowing anything I was like is she still like deep in this world is she like scared I'm like a man like this couldn't have been an ideal husband one moment and then a completely different person the next and probably isn't like a joy to co-parent with yeah so she has filed an affidavit back in 2024 so this is when I think they were working out some like custody arrangements when in 2024 because that's also the year that Micah died this is me so this is she's basically saying this

1:32:13is like right after Micah dies she's like I don't feel safe and and some of it is a little bit like hey he's getting all these threats too right I don't want my my kids around that but in doing so she has to talk about all the concerns that she had one of the things that I found really interesting is that she started in 2015 as his assistant to pastoral duties which is the same kind of role that he placed Micah in were they already married at the time I don't know the year that they got it's not in this document I have to look it up so in this she ledges it says this number seven the affidavit jp told me that in addition to his affair with Micah he had employed prostitutes and been sexually inappropriate with several underage female members of our church he blamed his immoral sexual behaviors on the sexual abuse that he experienced for years by his father Wayne Miller she says that when she found out about this like this these miners she actually went to the police

1:33:14and she's they're basically like nobody's going to believe you because these miners don't want to come forward you're like you're divorced from the sky you're talking about custody like that's not going to like hold up so she's like I I couldn't do anything but I did try to report it. I want to pause for like a second and be like miners coming forward with abuse is already incredibly difficult I feel like I'm so that's a lot like everything is very difficult in this circle where your value is placed on your purity where your value is placed on your body and how much you are untouched coming forward is it's how they it's how they keep you quiet that was impressive like as it doesn't matter that you didn't want it right as difficult as this is in general in any circle in these circles it is marking yourself unclean unclean it's marking yourself dirty even if you were assaulted and you kicked and like you know whatever they perceive as no you are still less than yeah whether it's said in those words or not it is heavily implied and so like that's devastating she talks about

1:34:19um an occasion when she was picking up one of their kids that there were holes in their walls there were hinges off the doors and pieces of paper taped to the wall with negative affirmations about mica now he had like set her text that were like oh I just so you know mica punched those holes the walls I'm not like losing it or anything but I'm like oh did she also write those like terrible things about herself doubt it and she also has in here when I talk about guns and stuff and knowing yeah that like he was at least using them there's a point in here where she says that he informed me that he was getting into buying guns and shooting then I read something that I thought was interesting as a convicted felon he is not allowed to have weapons however allegedly he managed to get a police chief from the church to assist with expunging his record further he was given a special police badge that says pastor is that a badge type to utilize if he ever gets pulled over this is deeply

1:35:22concerning when we want to talk about like a relation he has to authorities let's back up he's a convicted felon uh yes for so in 1998 he ran over a woman twice while she was like she had like sand but was doing something with sandbags or whatever and so he got into up for that and he has like other charges like when I look at his like report online there are like background checker yeah there are like other things too but like that's the big one which I was like I we did not even touch on in the documentary I did not realize that this is that man's history the other thing I did not realize is he was married to Ali but and they had their kids he had another relationship I don't know if they were married I don't think so with a woman before that and had another kid who was like a grown man at the time that all of this went down and in right because like

1:36:24just like I want to say they mentioned it in the documentary when Micah and JP got together I don't know if they it was when they got married or not but like the age split was like 21 and 36 yeah 15 yeah he's like 15 years older than her yeah so he has a grown son which I can get to more but like his son has a domestic violence like there I found a news article that he was arrested in like January of 24 for domestic violence so also an interesting person that like we don't even not even mentioned anywhere yeah might not have anything to do with anything but not I was surprised to learn it one of the last things that Allison said that I thought was interesting as she says I was married to JP for 16 years although my story and what I lived through with JP is different in some ways many of the details shared with me by Micah because Micah had been like confiding in her and asking for help are so similar to my own experiences with JP that I know she was being truthful

1:37:24so I'm sure there's someone out there who's like oh you know is she making up these stories or was she as she was trying to get divorced or whatever and you have you have Allison who is saying the same thing I know you're not lying yeah because what you're describing didn't come out of the blue been there done that yeah so she talks about his father Wayne Wayne is super interesting and this goes to like the creation of the church right told you I saw all like the similarities so he starts this church in South Carolina the church ends up going on to have like a television network it has a Bible college it has a ministry overseas which is just like one for one for one when the church was founded and maybe you don't know this was it connected to the domination okay so one of the things that they bring up when when we talk about the structure earlier is this comes up in one of the lawsuit that is I know my favorite one of the lawsuit that is filed in 2025

1:38:31is they're like you'll hear these different entities reference these like three different church names they're like they're all the same thing they're all owned and controlled by Wayne Williams' dad I can think of three different names but that's okay and John Paul and so a lot of the name changes came out of scandal yes because so he had his first church and there were this this big expose where there were these like sexual abuse allegations with young people and when that happens this is like the 80s it's really easy there's no internet so they pack up they move to myrtle beach they call it a different church they started they have some congregation come some new people and they start over and then there is another incident in which Wayne it like exposes himself to an undercover officer and that's the one that we probably see the article about in in the documentary I don't know which one they showed in the documentary but then there's like a

1:39:32news article where like he is named as like the other one was in the news too because there's like this five-part investigative series that was done this one seemed like a little bit more like a sting so that sounds like more like this incident so he gets in trouble for that and then I don't know when like solid rock becomes a thing it's a little bit fuzzy to me but then that's when J.P. which I also think is interesting when they were talking about in the documentary J.P. becoming a pastor was like oh he just wanted to like he's the pastor's son who oh they also had a school which has someone who went to the school owned by my church I was like what in the head and the school they were like isn't wasn't super like accredited it was we'll get into that a second but his dad has faced even in like recent years charges for I think it was like a homeland security what dude I can't make this stuff up hang on just a second you feel like invoices and emails and court docs this isn't safe hmm yes the department of the United States for the District of the South Carolina

1:40:38Florence Division nicely from America either way that he ends up pleading guilty to fraud in foreign labor contracting so basically oh no he was bringing over people from other countries and promising them work within the church and just basically like not providing them it even been in a way they were getting like 25 bucks a day they didn't have proper like housing and he would basically even like the food was expired which like don't get me started on that I know that sounds crazy to people do you know much expired food we had in the church that was just like because it was free yeah but don't share the financials to know how much we're making because we apparently need expired food and he would threaten them that if they deportation yeah yeah so he is like he is a hot mess in and of himself there is this 2007 affidavit from his wife that I am dying to find where it is like referenced in different places where she talks about his control so this would be

1:41:39JP's mom yeah and she was like with him for a very long time but she talks about his control over the family and over the congregation and I would like love her perspective so I get a lot of information about the churches that and how it is structured because in 2025 two Jane Does came forward alleging sexual abuse that was allowed by JP and his dad Wayne basically in the church so so Wayne and JP weren't the abusers yes they were well or they are like JP but like the they brought this to the church and the handled and JP and Wayne owned the church I mean that's the whole problem and so but they do the church too because they're like board members there there's no safety checks you're not doing background checks right there's you know there's nothing to like prevent this from happening or you know when has this history yet

1:42:44you're just allowing him better access to people yeah and not putting anything in place so basically in the Jane Doe number one case she alleges that she has this encounter with him when she's older with John Paul where he like sees her like hugs her like puts his hand down her and she like confront like she like pulls me side after and she's like I mean she's embarrassed she doesn't want it and she's like what was that and he's like oh you know oh god the quote he brings in God again he's like oh God knows like we sin or some and I'll take that paraphrase thank you and so she says that it like brings back the this repressed memory that she had from when she was 15 at the church and JP was 19 and he got her alone and she alleges he raped her in his truck but to your point of how that would be viewed by the church she said she didn't know if anyone

1:43:44would believe her she was mortified she was and eventually completely repressed the memory until it came back so until it came back when she's assaulted again correct so she files that one first and then Jane Doe number two files so this young woman says that JP was 19 or 20 in 1999 and he was a teacher at the school that the church ran and this is what this is where it talks about how literally they say there were people literally taken off the street and passed off as teachers like they didn't have to have according to this like accreditation or anything like that and so JP at 19 is a teacher in this school so in the fall of 1999 plaintiff was just 14 years old when her parents like put her in the school yeah cathedral hall academy it's not a school it's a trap many of the staff were simply members of the church or colleagues with no credentials and she has

1:44:50this interaction with JP where he's like playing the piano he asks if she wants to she declines and as she's turning to leave he pulls her into a hug and she didn't have time to react before his hands moved down her back passed her waist under her clothing and touch her bare butt she's like unsure of what to do she told the teacher instead of receiving help she was sent to Wayne's and when she arrived JP's already there so just to be clear like if she tells a teacher the teacher is not only colleagues with the person that did this but is also their boss right like a teacher is employed by the church by the school that is owned by the person who assaulted her and his father well I don't think you know he's still the pastor's son at that point but yeah it's all in the family yeah so he she gets pulled in the office where Wayne says quote you will not lie about my son and she was forced to write the words I will not lie about John Paul Miller five thousand times and then this gets out and she is essentially bullied by everybody now she you know

1:46:00she is a slut she is this she is that and her life is a living hell she says the horrors of cathedral hall academy were not just physical and sexual they were psychological then this this will hit extra close to home one example she gives is when plaintiff brought a Harry Potter book to school our WM and JPM dragged her into the office they berated her called her a servant of Satan and told her that if she continued down this path she would be ripped by demons then right in front of her they set the book on fire our WM that's Wayne then beat her with a Bible and poured water over her head she was 16 years old and again these are allegations and people wonder why I haven't seen Harry Potter so he makes a counter claim to that to Jane do number two and Jane number one okay he basically has a response and has filed a counter claim saying that these are lies there were apparently social media videos he wanted the judge to like but have those be taken down barney run one from

1:47:03talking about it as far as I can see these are still pending okay now one of the last things that I I want to get to I mentioned was like this idea of why did he take all of her stuff and yes we know where JP was but is JP the only person we should be looking at so one of Micah's sisters filed an affidavit and in here she says Micah told me that there were people following her keeping track of where she went she thought that Mr. Miller had hired people to follow her Mr. Miller later confirmed this during a sermon I watched now they had kind of like briefly touch on this in the documentary yeah because there's like a moment where they find a tracker on her car and they're like at the police and they see a car pull in and then like whip around and leave yeah which might have been him but there this idea that it was people this isn't say John Paul and that he was hiring people to to me says I don't sure I'm glad we know where his truck was but like who are these other

1:48:11people that were involved who else was in his orbit and did police thoroughly look at them too did the FBI we're gonna talk about cyber stalking even if that's the only thing we're talking about like who else touched that case now when she had filed for divorce the first time I don't know I don't know what his mindset was he maybe his narcissistic brain did really did want her back but it also seems very calculated because he convinces her to not do it that first time and then according to her sister's affidavit she is told by my cut that he starts moving assets so if she files for divorce and it stays like right now she still has that she's going to get things while they're still marrying he starts moving assets in his name such as the vehicle he changed the deed to their house to the church transferring interest in and he also transferred interest in crocodile rocks to one of his sons which I think is like this breast on her bar or something so he's making moves

1:49:19now the other thing she says is that prior to her admission to walk them all which I think is the it was the mental health institution where she got institutionalized when she got committed so prior to her admission myka was gathering and sorting the evidence she had to bring an attorney for filing for divorce to support her claims against mr. Miller and as to his abuse character his paramores and associates he paid off or blackmailed while at while at the facility those documents emails files etc were removed from her phone personal laptop vehicle and purse and never recovered further myka was unable to access her iCloud account email or Facebook profile mr. Miller continued using at least one of myka's accounts causing any recipient to believe that it was myka's communications so and that's like in the documentary to reference like where we are in time that's when she's calling she calls like nine one one and is like hey my strange or like we're

1:50:20separated my husband is take I was in the hospital he's taken all of my stuff I need like I can I report the stuff stolen right and so to me that was just like oh he took your stuff it sounds like she was building a case for her divorce against him but mate mate but again I know what this paying off and blackmail like there she was collecting evidence that then disappears because she gets institutionalized the other thing her sister says is that myka was intending to participate in additional missions because she did missions trips she was even planning to live part-time in Kenya myka recently shipped some of her personal items to Kenya in preparation for her stay there I understand why the family is so taken aback by this this is the document where she says that she was fearful that she wouldn't make it to the divorce and she according to her sister said if I end up with a bullet in my head it was not by me it was JP she's making plans she says this she's

1:51:23building this evidence against him that evidence goes missing once she dies he's trying to collect anything else that might remain it's I get I get the questions I've got the questions I've had questions since I heard about this case but I feel like the more that I've learned about it the list of questions has only gotten so what now I don't know his hearing for cybershawking making false statements to an investigator that is set I think right now for October and I think I think a lot of people are going to be watching I know we talked about a ton of like very tough topics so for anyone who is listening or watching we're going to put a bunch of resources in the show notes including something on religious trauma which maybe I should take advantage of and there's also going to be some information about myka's law one of the things that her family is

1:52:28trying to change is how the state of South Carolina views allegations of abuse or harassment like within a married couple because there was a lot of stuff that they felt like police couldn't respond to because of the fact that JP and like a we're married so if you want more information on that you can check out that in the show notes as well and see how you can support crime junkie is an audio check production I think Chuck would approve