[COMT] Matthew Liberatore: Cardinals Ace? + Rotation Battle & Dustin May's St. Louis Future

High-powered fastballs and the kickchange has been the talk of St. Louis Cardinals camp,

but is the rotation competition coming to a conclusion with Ace Matthew Libertor at the

front?

And where does Richard Fitz have to, Nate Schwartz and Thomas Govane are here to give

their takes.

It's good to see you.

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All that and more on Cardinals on my time.

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But back to the task at hand, joining me today are two very familiar faces to Cardinals

on my time, Nate Schwartz from Pitcher List as well as a new podcast called the Approach

Angle, which he said he is an integral veteran.

So he can take over for me here soon.

And with Nate, we got Thomas Govane from Redbird Rance.

And today we are talking pitching, but more specifically the starting rotation.

So welcome on guys.

How we feel in Thomas.

I know it's that time of the year, we're just counting down till spring break.

How are you feeling?

Yeah, pretty good.

I'm actually counting down till state testing after a screen like spring breaks to the

calm.

We got our testing.

And then it's pretty much the year, right?

Like we could throw it.

That's all.

Yeah.

I just got to make it till until end of April, but we can do it Nate.

How are you feeling?

Good.

This I was traveling for like two weeks.

I got back last week and this is the first day where I fully caught up on everything

spring training and real baseball classic and I was blessed.

Oh, so nicely with a very nice Matthew Libertor start the spring.

So I decided to talk about that later.

What a perfect time to just get you all settled just to get you to work a little bit harder

from from today.

So we are a few weeks in.

So I figured now that we are a few weeks in after talking about either everything or

nothing mattering before opening day, I think we're kind of to the point where we've seen

pictures stop kind of tweaking things mid game and they're trying to now build towards

the regular season.

So today, like Nate said, we got a phenomenal performance from Matthew Libertor, which he's

put together a great spring.

And then Richard Fitz, I think I saw top in 99 again today had some game action that gave

us plenty to talk about.

I want to start with Libertor though, because he is really pushing to be not just the

front of the rotation, but to become a top starter, it looks like coming this year.

So he's gone through a roller coaster the career.

We all know he's only 26, but he has a lot of the guy will be experienced in different

places, prize pitching prospect with rotation projections near the front, then struggled

a bit, then found a home in the bullpen last spring.

He's like, Hey, we're going to give him a chance to start.

I don't know about you guys, but I was like, Oh, okay, just add them into the list of

pictures that were in the competition.

Turns out he added a legitimate shot to win it and did and now we had into the 2026 rotation.

He's the go to guy.

So Nate, I'm going to start with you.

We saw Libby break down a little bit last year, but now he's run out of pitchcom buttons.

So he's striking out guys with more frequency as well.

But today was just awesome again.

So Nate, I know you were watching provided some analysis on Twitter.

So share the wealth, dive in.

What did you see from Matthew Libertor today?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing I saw from him, which changed up location.

We saw a lot of the things that he's added over the last year, year and a half has been

all sorts of different breaking pitches, you know, he's gone into the curveball more.

He's turned away from the curveball a little bit.

He's added the cutter, you know, the slider has really blossomed into his go to pitch over

the last year.

And that's what kind of drove him to a lot of success as a starter at last year.

The big thing for a left-handed pitcher is that you need to have a change up.

You need to have something that's vertical.

And while the curveball can work, it would need to be a harder pitch.

And he throws this curveball at like 77, 78 miles an hour and Major League hitters can just sit back

and wait on it.

And it's not, you know, as effective as a two strike offering.

So, you know, we'd seen him throw the change up here and there throughout last year.

And it just was never consistent.

It didn't have good movement.

And today it showed up in kind of perfect, down in a way, location.

It wasn't the pitch that got the most whiffs.

That was actually the slider.

But I think this was a bigger indication of, oh, if he has this pitch in his arsenal

that he can confidently deploy in competitive locations,

that allows the slider to do so much more.

I know there was a lot of talk from Lee Rotary about, oh, maybe he'd have a splitter as well.

And while we haven't seen that two-pitch combination of two off-speed pitches from him,

I think that potentially had a very significant effect on his change up.

And as long as he gets one of those down, I think there's just a really,

I'm not going to say like ace level potential, but very,

a very formidable starter out of Lee Rotary this year.

I think the other thing that I think a lot of people forget

is just really how good he was as a starter through, I don't know,

I think like June or July of last year.

And if you go on to fan graphs and go to the player graphs,

you can pull up just a nice little chart of his ERA and his strikeout rate

over the season last year.

And they literally, both the dissect halfway through or

bisect halfway through as the ERA started low and just slowly crept up.

And the strikeout rate started high and slowly crept down.

So we've heard him talk with some level of maturity this off season

and the tinkering that he's been doing with his arsenal just really gives me a lot of hope

that he's going to find a way to have built up to withstand a full season,

but also make the changes to his arsenal that allow him to succeed

in each app back throughout the season.

Thomas, before I get to you, I want to ask Nate,

like what does fastball velocity play with for Libertor right now?

Like, is that something that we need to be watching?

Is he just going to be 9495?

And that's going to just depend on the secondaries then or like,

do we need to see a jump in fastball usage or movement or anything like that?

I mean, if anything, it'd like to be moving away from the fastball.

The better he can do not throwing it because it's not a particularly good pitch,

the better from a velocity standpoint, obviously more is better.

We all know that.

But it's not he's sitting like 94 right now in spring.

I don't really read into spring velocity too, too much unless it's a new high

or, you know, your three or four takes off the mark.

I think it's something where we can see,

but I think he's starting to create this arsenal and become comfortable as a major league starter

where that velocity isn't going to matter as much.

I think for a guy who is really kind of on the fringe,

might have been out of the cardinals plans coming into last year if it didn't work out.

There's some level of security that allows you to tinker with things

and have more confidence that, oh, this is not do or die.

I don't need to overthrow now.

Like, it's going to be okay.

I can trust myself.

Thomas, have you seen that kind of change in Libertor that might now?

I mean, what do you think?

He was the first cardinal to be featured in the nest.

And then he's been kind of the front runner in some MLB network stuff.

Is he ticketed for opening day?

Or is this just somebody young and exciting

who's a lock for the rotation that they can talk about?

I'd love to see him opening day.

I think you mentioned the nest there as well.

They seem to be searching for their next face of the rotation.

And with Dustin, maybe only a one-year contract with the option.

He's not the most ideal candidate.

He hasn't been in St. Louis for a while.

We've got so many new guys coming in.

You look at Andre Klonte.

It's another guy who's been around,

but I think he's fans of Sauer don't think a little bit.

I think making Libertor the face of the rotation

is the cardinal's next step.

And like you and Nate have been talking about,

he's not going to have the overpowering stuff.

But he's going to have the craftiness.

He's going to have the location that can get him

through endings and through games

that Cardinal's fans have known with the rotation.

I mean, look at guys like Adam Wainwright.

His cardball is what you'd.

But the rest of it was pretty pretty straightforward stuff.

And we fell for Adam Wainwright head over heels.

I'm not saying Libertor can be just like him,

but you look at the cardball.

You look at the height,

the lengthiness, a little bit of a dry sense of humor.

I think you could see Libertor growing into that rotation

and becoming the guy there.

Yeah, we get to see a different little bit of that personality

because we were surrounded by a Michaelis

and you know, the other sunny Gray

and Wilson and Charis,

those other veteran types that know.

We don't have that.

I wonder who that personality is going to be,

whether it be post-game or fiery in the middle of games.

But that's just to talk for another day

before we start talking about that.

So we feel that Libertor is he going to be an ace

or a number one pitcher

or just a friend of the rotation arm

before like you start talking like extensions

and things like that?

What do you think his ultimate potential could be?

So a cardinals number one

a friend of the rotation starter

or like a legitimate ace.

Nate, what do you think?

It's going to be front of this iteration of cardinal starter.

I think the goal

if everyone develops the right way

that he'd be the number three

on the next competitive cardinals team.

You're hoping that like a Quinn Matthews

or Liam Doyle or someone else

takes the step forward to become

oh, they're going to miss bats.

They're going to be that dominant guy

who you're stepping out.

It's like, oh, we're winning today

because someone's who was on the mound.

Libertor is going to be a very comfortable starting pitcher

that you're going to have confidence going out there with.

But I don't think he has that top level

potential that some other guys have.

I do think kind of to get to your

like leadership point.

I think one of the interesting things that came up

over and over again

in interviews with some of the veteran

pitchers last year and the year before

was that they said

Libertor was asking

like talking to these guys heads off

during games in the dugout

in the clubhouse stuff like that.

And even if he's not going to be that loud

and fiery guy,

he seems like the perfect person

that you want to keep around for a while

is going to give wisdom to young

pitchers and help everyone else get better

and create a really good culture

in the on the pitching staff

that I don't think they've had

consistently over the last couple of years.

I think that makes sense, especially

the personality side of it.

If he's the veteran who's been there

but it's just 26 still.

And that's where I like to ask

when I think of potential

the Nate you kind of said

to be the number three on the next

competitive team.

I when I think potential it's

where would they be on a team

that's going for it.

So Thomas, what do you think

in that case Libertor's potential is

and would he be an extension candidate

if he can be that for this cardinals team?

Yeah, I think

Nate at the moment out there

with the number three starter.

You'd hope that a Liam Doyle

or a directional St.

uh, even tender Franklin

like one of those guys leapfrogs

over him.

That would be a true success story

for the development.

That means things have gone

right and exactly as planned

for the next two, three years

for the Cardinals

with that being said.

Libertor is he's not in this first

year of arbitration this year.

Is that right?

He's got one more year.

He's super two.

Okay.

If it was right.

There we go.

So he's so got three more years of control.

I think

an extension potentially

in the next couple of years

just to keep him as that voice

in the rotation.

A guy to go from

last iteration of the Cardinals

to the next round

where they're trying to be competitive

with some continuity

that the rotation might need

with with a lot of flux

over the next couple of years.

Yeah.

I like talking extensions

currently like the 2027 season

is going to happen.

I don't like operating like it's not.

So I still want to just look

at look at things.

There's more fun if he pretend

that they're supposed to happen.

27.

This show would still come out

that you're right.

But Nate, you were talking about

only caring about velocity

if it was new highs

or a couple takes below.

So we talked about Libby being

kind of where he's going to be.

But then we saw Dustin May

touching 99 and then you see

Michael McGreevy hitting 91.

But again, it's spring training.

Guys are working on things.

So

they're both locks.

I've talked about Dustin

maybe before I was kind of

hoping it'd be a two-year deal

or an opt out

or something different to where

if he did pitch well,

he could stick around

and then give you

some options from that.

But what do you take

from those two guys' springs

so far

when we're talking about

it's velocity, but it is spring?

Yeah, I think

starting with Michael McGreevy

because he is an established card

nobody did see him last year.

I'm not worried about him being

like a ticker two down right now.

You know, everyone gets ready

differently.

He's a young guy.

He's had a lot of innings

on his arm before.

You know, I think he knows

how to get ready.

I'm not

not going to raise the red flag

with that one

so far.

I think the interesting thing

from McGreevy is that, you know,

he's still really tinkering

with his arsenal

even as we get into the next kind of,

you know, handful of starts

before it's go time for the season.

In his last start, he was

averaging 27% changeup usage.

That was the most out of any

pitch it.

Any pitch that he throws

and that is, you know,

way outside the norm for him.

And not that it's this new

exciting offering,

but it's more that he's really

trying to find something

that can play off of the

fastball in the sinker.

We know his sinker is a really good

pitch. He commands it

better than almost anyone

in baseball.

The problem is it doesn't

really overpower guys.

It leads to we contact that,

you know, Cardinal fans know

and love when their pitcher

is a we contact inducing guy

only.

So he's been really trying

to find what else works

off of that.

The slider curveball sweeper

have been

intriguing,

albeit not necessarily

commanded the best.

And I think he's really

been trying to hone in on the

change up where,

oh, I can get a right handed

better to ground out more

often than not off the sinker.

How do I get a left handed

hitter out?

And if you pull up any of his

heatmaps on his change up

from last year,

you can see that almost

everything with the change up

is missing, um,

arm side in a way.

So just never competitive,

never really getting many

swings or misses and end up

ultimately just being more

of a waste pitch.

And if you look at the plot

from his last art where he was

throwing the change up more

than anything else,

he was starting to get it

over the plate more.

Was it commanded?

Well, not particularly,

but he was starting to show

control.

So I think he's still

tinkering and I think he,

you know, really benefits

from being in Bush stadium

where he's not going to get

hit too hard by the park

factors.

And I think we're going to

maybe see another repeat

of last year, um,

from him.

Okay, before we get to

May, then I'm going to jump

on that, that week

contact Thomas is

McGreevy at his prime

just a cheaper miles

ducts.

That's all pulled to say.

Michael McGreevy is

an insult.

Yeah, really.

You know,

he's trying to get players

to watch this.

I don't know about that one.

Hey, how about like 20,

20, 22 miles miles?

My greatest or 2018 miles

of my glistening?

I said, I said,

cheaper, my glistening.

Yeah, there we go.

Uh, yeah, probably.

Uh, I'm not going to

fainz know as much about

pitch location and

and his men as Nate does.

But from a pure aesthetic

profile, I think I see a lot

of the same things there.

He's going for ground balls.

He's going for soft contact.

He's going to take advantage

but go stadium keeping balls

in the yard as well.

His velocity is going to be

nothing overpowering.

Like you guys just talked

about we've seen a little bit

of a dip in V11 spring.

Once again,

this is spring training.

He's tinkering that stuff.

He's working on his pitch mix.

There's no red flags there.

From me.

But I do think that we see

him as a back end

in anxiety or soft contact.

Kind of guy.

I yeah, I love him.

I love the personality.

But yeah, he there was 95.

He got the sinker.

He's got the slider to be per whatever.

If he's a number four and number five,

I think that's fine.

But let's go ahead and look at Dustin May.

So Nate, what is best case scenario

for May for the Cardinals this year?

Not just May himself,

but best case scenario for the Cardinals?

The best case for the Cardinals

is that he ends up looking like, you know,

the early, you know, 2021-2022

versions of himself in an extended

way that we really have never seen before.

And the Cardinals are able to get an absolute hall

for him at the trade deadline.

It would be impressive.

But I still think even though

we've gotten into spring and we've seen him in a Cardinal Uniform,

I think a lot of Cardinals fans are still really

you know, over-expecting what Dustin May will provide.

Just because they've seen him through 99,

you see what the sweeper looks like watching on live TV

and you're like, oh, this pitcher

is unbelievable.

And that's kind of plagued him his entire career.

Granted, he's been hurt for a lot of it

and hasn't been able to throw a ton of innings.

But he's had this arsenal for better

where almost six seasons now.

And we haven't seen it really break through

in a repeatable way.

And I think we really need to see what those changes look like.

Is he healthier?

Is he in a way that he can show off some of those skills,

get the results,

but then also do it for, you know,

two months consistently,

because we really have only seen that once from him.

Thomas, would it be organizational male practice

if Dustin May was on this team

after the trade deadline

or was worked out at an extension?

So I think the caveat with that is he's pitching well.

Has he been healthy?

If that's the case,

I think they should absolutely cash in on his trade value.

If he's pitching well,

if he can mingle last year's health

with 2022, 2022, 2023 production.

And we keep him on the roster.

That's dangerous,

especially with the potential for a loss of 2020 season.

They've got a cash in on what they have with him.

If they don't cash in,

I would love we've talked extensions.

I think that they that they could

parlay that option in 2027 into a two or three year extension as well,

just to keep him there,

especially if they see the

best signs of bad health.

They love what they see in the line metrics

with what he's performing.

There's too much of a risk with the player like him,

especially to keep him around in the second half.

You're going to see some drops in his numbers.

You're going to see some drops in his stuff.

And then there's always the injury risk too.

So if he's performing well,

they've got a cash in with that one.

And it's kind of what you both have said earlier

is that you're just hoping that there's going to be somebody else

that's going to just jump in as well.

So if you cash out and get something to rejuvenate

whatever it's the Major League roster

or the Minor League roster,

you got that hopefully that next cash crop of pitching

that's ready to come up as well.

It makes more sense to do that with the cost-controlled rookies

than the Dustin A while you can still get something for it.

So I think Dustin A is kind of the wide range of outcomes

as far as it comes to the rotation that it could

need to be really good or really bad.

But I think there's

a barring injury he's not on the team

past the trade deadline.

All right, so that brings us to the fun stuff.

The rest of the rotation last year

to put it simply, the rotation was poop.

So now three of the five are new arms

with the trade of sunny Gray,

Eric Fettey and Miles Michaelis

are out of here, Stephen Mats.

So none of these guys seem to look

like noticeably worse than what is gone

from the rotation from last year.

Be it any of the four or five guys

fighting for these last two spots.

So Nate, again, starting with you,

who do you see grabbing those final two spots?

And not just that, but how firm is that hold?

Is it theirs to lose and let them run with it as long as possible?

Or is it just going to be just cycling

through as kind of like an organizational plan

to see as many arms as possible?

I think it first of all depends who is there.

But more importantly,

it'll be they want to let these guys find rhythm,

at least I hope.

And I think that's what Hyme's going to do.

I think that one of the things we saw with,

I mean, we can say with Libby,

you could say with Jordan Walker,

you know, name your guy here.

There have been so many instances

where the roster has been in a win-now mode

where you have not let the young players.

Here's two months, go figure it out.

You know, you might fail at first.

Can you adapt to that right now?

Do you really need more time in the minor league

and we saw that can have a pretty damaging effect

on a guy's developmental track?

And for kind of an open season here

and you have a really young rotation

in injury prone rotation,

if that there's going to be room for innings regardless.

So I'm not really worried about needing

to rotate these guys in and out

if after three starts, Kyle Layhe has a, you know, 15 ERA.

Like, let him figure it out.

This is his shot to start.

And if you can unlock something there

that'd be phenomenal surplus value.

But if I had to pick, we can get into it.

If Thomas gives his take as well,

I think I would say that my two front runners here

just on expectation for what I think the Cardinals will do

will be Kyle Layhe and Andre Palante.

Okay, we saw Layhe was perfect through four.

I think that was yesterday.

So I guess based on what the organization will do

plus what you want to do, Thomas,

what do you think those last two are going to be?

Do you want the same as the Cardinals' organization?

Yeah, no, probably not.

But what I want is that.

I think what the Cardinals want is exactly what Nate said.

They're going to get Kyle Layhe a shot

but give you 10 starts, give or take, eight starts.

See what he can do in that time period.

If he shoves, keep him in there.

If not, there's always a way to flex him out of there.

The bullpen, bring up one of the young guys.

And then Andre Palante, it's probably now or never for him.

And if he can't cut it as a starter,

we don't need strikeouts from him.

We just need to not see a nearly six ERA

and the launching pad every other start.

And if he can do that, even if he can tap them to what he was in 2024,

you know, he was probably our best starting pitcher,

at least in the second half, if not the whole season.

I know that he started late that year.

But if you look at the whole body of work,

I think there's an argument that he was our best pitcher in 2024.

If he can get back to those ways,

I think that there's a lot of value in Andre Palante.

It's tough for a guy like Richard Fitz

or even Quinn Matthews, who's at the Exceptional Spring so far.

But those guys have the time that they can spend in AAA

whereas Andre Palante, it's now or never.

And that's kind of the benefit of this year.

You can give the guys who you don't need to perform this year,

timed out in AAA or a spot start year there

to fill in an off day for somebody

and then let the guys that you really want to see in 2026 show what they can do.

Well, then out of those five,

who do you think is the shortest lease?

Do you think it is Palante in this now or never?

Are they going to just try to, is it going to be,

hey, you figure it out because he might just be a trade candidate this year

regardless.

And they just want to get the best out of him.

And his best value might be as an innings eater for a contender.

Nate, what, what do you think for Palante there?

Yes, but I think that's going to be, I think that's going to be mid-May

when they first think about, you know, deciding to make that decision.

I will say this isn't fully last grass for Palante Ehrlich.

He they both have one option year left.

Fitz having two does give him the, you know,

the advantage to starting in AAA just because it gives them more options generally.

But Palante is early tweaking his arsenal pretty,

I don't want to say pretty significantly.

He still is throwing his very outlier fastball and sinker,

primarily, but he's really trying, he's throwing a splitter I now, I believe now.

He's flashed that to left-handed hitters a few times.

And he's also been playing around with his slidershape.

I think he knows that his bread and butter are those two primary pitches,

even though they've been his demise for, you know, most of last year.

They really show that, you know, they generate a lot of weak contact and a lot of ground balls.

And for better or worse, that is a path to succeed, especially when you have,

in theory, a really strong infield defense.

And it's all about, you know, finding the other stuff to make the arsenal come together.

And his willingness to be showing things in spring games, I think, is probably telling the

Cardinals, hey, we're going to give him a shot.

Let him see if he can figure it out and then go from there.

If it really, if you're looking at a six-yard in May, maybe then do we see a transition

of source for him? So Tom, let's say an injury does pop up and we're talking about these guys

that do have the options and, you know, whoever's next is, does it depend on length of time,

or is it going to be any major they got opportunity is going to be, like,

Quinn Matthews or Richard Fitzgerald? Do you think it's going to depend on the length of

the opening for the next man up, or who do you see as the next man up in this situation?

See me in, like, a guy misses two starts, 10-day I.L versus a month or two.

Okay. Yeah, would that be the same guy to you?

No, probably not. I would imagine Richard Fitz would get the the short-term call-up

and then Quinn Matthews would get the, let's give him six starts up here, really throw him

in the fire so we can handle.

I'm going to, okay, I want to, I want to just throw it into one more because I want to talk

about these injuries and I'm going to do the couple spins on injuries, but I want to talk about,

like, is there anybody that you think we need to just see before the injuries really get them?

Like, if they're close, I've been talking about, especially in these years, like, if the person

is close, like, we heard McGreevy was last year, like, just call him up then and let him,

as we've been saying, back-to-back, figure it out. So, like, my guy would be, if he's close and healthy,

would be tank-hence, just get him up as soon as possible. Nate, is there anybody like that where,

as soon as they're ready and healthy, get them up there so that they, if they get hurt, it's at the

major league level. Not really. I'm kind of in favor of being a lot more patient with pitching

prospects, especially with guys who, you know, are good, but not necessarily overpowering in a sense.

It's not like a lot of these guys are missing bats left and right throwing, you know,

like, I think of a good example last year being, like, Peyton Toli, who, for the Red Sox, who was just

overpowering hitters throughout the minor leagues, just complete dominance, and they're like,

we're going to give them a shot to see what happens. And none of the, that current crop of

cardinals pitchers who are right there really possess stuff like that. And it's more of these guys

who are learning, I think, to become pitchers at the minor league level. And as the pipeline has

really kind of built up in the last year or so, like, I don't think many people would have, you know,

really considered Eshon Henderson or Bryson Mouts as legitimate pro pitching prospects a year ago

with a chance to make the major league roster. And you see that, you know, being patients with

these guys as they figure it out might be the move. And it's not like you have a Miles McElis,

who we're like, oh, well, we have to get him out of the Eric Fattie. We have to get them out.

Like, we have a young guy to take their spot. There is all guys, you know, bar dust and may

completely blowing up who are, you know, cardinals, through and through with years who have a little

bit of youth to them where you want to see what they, they have to offer before you pull the plug

on another, on another young pitcher. What about you, Thomas? Is there anybody that you would,

I'm going to put in quotes rush because I'm not saying that they are just somebody with only like

Sanjay, like, who's, you know, trying to learn both sides at, you know, the single A double A level.

Is there somebody that you would quote rush who's seemingly ready at AAA? No, I don't think so.

And this guy's probably not going to be at AAA either, but I'd love to see from the relief

perspective Luis Gaston just with that change up. I think that he could be a sneaky guy

where they give him some time in AAA double A to start the year. And then they need to

really work towards the end of the year and they just throw him in there see what he can do.

Nate, before I get your, your guy to watch for the rest of spring or going into the season,

I want to ask you a question because I was touching on this injury stuff and then we're kind of

building into this pitching development and things. But you mentioned Eshan, we've talked about,

you know, the other guys going down a little bit, but the MLB pitchers didn't get hurt.

And that's what we've seen Dustin Maeve and brought it up like nobody in the major league

organization got hurt. And those are the guys that were built to pitch to contact. And there were

what's 10 guys in the minor leagues that missed long term, like long time because of their injuries.

Is that anything that we should be focused on as that shifts towards velocity and power stuff

where the cardinals are switching from that just pitch to contact sinker slider stuff?

I don't really think so. Generally, my view of it is you're already putting too much

stress on your elbow by throwing 92 miles an hour. Like you're running the risk of something

happening to your elbow anytime you throw a ball as a major league pitcher more or less. And I think,

you know, Tinkhens was always going to be an injury risk. The second they drafted him and the

Cardinals kind of knew that. And I think at times two or three years ago felt like they were playing

with house money. And I think it's definitely something that we're going to see more of where you

might see guys on workload limits and pitch counts stuff like that. But it's one of those things where

it's, you know, almost suffering from success in a sense where the Cardinals have done so great

over the past 10 or 15 years where they can develop these guys who are, you know,

pitched to contact major league pitchers who don't provide real upside. And it's about time they

joined the big boys and, you know, learned to develop an ace because we haven't seen that

in a cardinal uniform in some time. And I think, you know, someone in the org will be that.

I don't know who that is. Maybe it's Quinn Matthews, maybe it's Doyle, maybe it's Sinja.

And like one of those should be one of the guys to break that mold. But you have to,

you have to trust the process with it and can't get too cautious.

All right. Talk about the upside that we can bring this thing home here. Thomas,

one, someone with upside major league roster minor league, whatever that euro are excited to watch

see develop or just get some time this year. I'd love to see Quinn Matthews. I think

last year's he was adjusting to the major league ball. And then he had the injuries as well.

I think to see Quinn Matthews back to his 2024 self. I mean, that was probably the first prospect

that since Jack Flaherty that we produced as an as an organization of like this guy's legit.

He's number two. He's he's mid to top of the rotation. It brought some excitement. So if he can

get back to where he was 2024, which given his spring so far, there seems to be some some belief in

that as well. I think he'd be exciting. All right, Nate. What do you got for us?

So I would generally also say Quinn Matthews as a left handed pitcher enthusiast and left

handed pitcher myself in years past. He's so fun to watch as changeups incredible. And I think he's

going to be have a really big impact on saying Lewis for years to come. But the guy I'm going to

go with a little bit kind of unexpected here is going to be Ryan Stannick. I think he has an

outside chance to become the Cardinals closer this year. The stuff has looked electric in his

few opportunities so far. He's the classic power righty. He touches on. He's got this wipe out

slider. And there's a lot of inexperience in the back of the Cardinals bullpen. I know Riley O'Brien

is still nursing a calf injury. Jojo Ramirez a bit of a untraditional left handed pitcher to be

in the closer role. And then I'm not sure about Matt Sponson's true viability as a closer being a

sinker guy. And I think Stannick's kind of he's 35 and he has some experience in some in late games

and playoff games and stuff like that. And I would not be surprised if he took over closing

duties for this team early in the season. And then they used that to get more trade value out of

him come the deadline. Not too often you hear a 35 year old reliever as the guy to be excited

about from spring training. But I love that because we don't we haven't really heard much about him

but it also comes in fact we've seen four games but again conversation for another day.

Yeah I think I think everyone is so exciting in the sense that it kind of feels like a new beginning

with this roster where I think you could talk about some of the youth that have worked and not

worked for for so long. And I think he might actually be a very important piece to this roster

that I think as you can see maybe not on everyone's radar and should be.

I love it. Well that took us to going through the rotation what we're seeing for the locks so far.

We are all in agreement on who the top three are going to be and what Matthew Libertor's kind of

potential is going to be and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just kind of how the

cookie crumbles and where the development is here. So before we say goodbye I want to give both

of you a chance to do some shout out. So Thomas I know we've seen you many times before and see

all over the place but let everyone know where they can find you. I'm right over at Redwood Rants

try to get a couple articles in a week. It's been a little bit slower given school year but we'll

figure it out in summer and then obviously on Twitter at Thomas Gavane there as well.

Love it. You've been pushing out some good good stuff lately over there on Twitter whether it's

referencing feathers or I try to not roll. It's all in perspective but a good way to look at

this season too as I put the cardinals at plus 3,000 to win the NL Central today.

Holy cash and out easy. Nate where can we find you? Yeah you can find me at Pitcher List where

once we're in season I'll be writing not necessarily cardinals focus stuff but kind of

league wide trends deep dad stuff like that and then you can also find me on the approach angle

podcast. I do it with Kyle Bland the director of analytics at Pitcher List and it's a podcast

that we're just starting up now to teach everyone all things baseball analytics because there's

I think too many too many pitch cards too many numbers out there that I think lose context a

lot of the time and really want to explain that when more people are informed good things happen.

Yeah you see a lot of colors and lines and shapes. Trying to explain though is just a little bit

that's good because I mean even as a pitcher myself I saw the radar gun and I asked my partner if

the ball moved or not and 94% of the time they lied to me but now we get all this stuff that we

get to reference but we don't totally maybe always get the full picture so very excited to see

that and all the stuff that you've been doing over there. So once again if you enjoyed this make

sure that you're following Thomas your following Nate and you're also following Redbird Rundown

podcast on Apple Spotify YouTube and if you want to be entered into our giveaway for the Coca

Cola unlimited tickets you can join our Patreon page for just one dollar for Thomas for Nate

I'm Scott Pleasant at Mr. Plastastic this was Cardinals on my time thanks for hanging