Confronting @HazeltineLLC Controversial Nelson Nash Video

Out of all the videos you could make, why did you choose to make this video?

We owe a debt of gratitude to Nelson Nash, but we also have to be realistic.

You made some pretty strong statements like, man, you're mischaracterizing him,

potentially slandering his character and he's not even alive to back it up.

You keep putting words in my mouth.

I didn't say anything about Nelson's character or his intentions.

It might not have been the best business decision,

but I felt morally obligated to say some things that no one else seems to have the courage.

And someone who's smart is going to value that perspective.

I want to address the thing that I felt like was most extreme.

You've mentioned in your video about the cultish worship of Nelson.

I was kicked out of the Nelson Nash Institute,

reviling exactly zero of their rules.

I think Nelson Nash would have a serious problem with the way that the Nelson

Nash Institute is using government violence or the threat of government violence

to shut people down.

You're staring the pot here because I would not go there with the temp of all.

Do you think if someone is Catholic being a part of the institute is

a problem when it comes to underlying faith and their convictions?

When Nelson's legacy will always be tainted because of some of the

totally inexcusable things that he said about the religion that I hold dear.

And that cannot be excused.

Logan Hertz, welcome back to the Better Wall Show.

Caleb Williams, it's always an honor and a privilege to be on your show.

I'm so happy to be here and thank you again for making the time to have me on your show.

I really appreciate it.

Absolutely, man.

You are staring the pot with your recent video.

The time that we're recording this, your last video that you

posted was, was Nelson Nash wrong, the truth about Nelson Nash.

And I want to read some of the comments that you got.

Very, very lovely comments.

You got the what's with bashing rest and peace, Nelson, for some language orthodoxy.

You had someone come at you just from some of the comments that you made

about the Catholic church.

You had someone say that you are a very sad individual.

So the video got lots of views.

Didn't you miss that?

Your trash comment.

That was in there too.

Your trash.

You can see that one.

Oh, oh, maybe when you when you said,

I didn't see that one.

I don't know if it's maybe it's gone now.

That's sometimes happens.

I don't know.

I don't know if you see that or someone will come at you with like all this garbage.

And then a week later, all the comments are gone and the user is gone.

I don't.

Yeah, I don't know what that means, but I've seen that happen too.

Why don't you talk to me about

why you made this video.

And then what I want is I want to hear before we get into

the at some of the points, because I watch the video.

I have some points that I want to talk with you about.

Maybe challenge you on, but I want to hear why you made that video.

And then I want to talk about what you appreciate about Nelson.

And all because I think that you did mention some of that,

but obviously that gets overlooked with some of the points that you made.

So first and foremost,

out of all the videos you could make,

why did you choose to make this video?

Yeah, it's a good question.

Maybe I shouldn't have.

It might not have been the best business decision,

but I felt morally obligated to say some things that I think needed to be said,

that no one else seems to have the courage to say.

And that to me already indicates there's a problem.

Why does it require courage to say these things?

And I think you've seen based on the reactions that I've got.

Why it does require some courage to say these things.

I just think that we in the infinite banking footprint need to be honest with ourselves.

And I think we owe a debt of gratitude to Nelson Nash,

but we also have to be realistic, that's all.

And so you made this because was there a trigger point that you're just like,

I'm frustrated that people walk around like that people just repeat Nelson to repeat Nelson

was, or is it just something that was kind of like always on your mind?

And it just kind of boiled over like, why did you choose to post it?

Because you posted it right during the symposium,

whether you knew that or not.

I didn't know that.

No, I didn't know that.

It was funny.

You posted it right when people were gathering together.

I didn't know if that was intentional.

No, no, I had no idea.

Yeah, no, it was something I was building.

There was no real trigger point.

And I think that I will say I'm actually pleased with the response that I get.

Because my experience has been when you stand up and speak the truth in a way that requires

courage, 99.9% of the people are going to give you the negative response that you expect.

But there will be the 0.1% of people who are not going to say anything publicly,

but will reach out to you directly to thank you for saying it and explain why they appreciate

what you're doing and how they're now adjusting their behavior.

Because finally, they saw someone who is willing to verbalize what they've been thinking

for a long time.

And so I'm happy about that.

That's what has happened every time Caleb.

Every time I talked about the Nelson Nations in this video, that's been the response.

As I get a whole lot of hatred, a whole lot of negative comments.

But I get a small number of very high quality people reaching out to me saying,

yeah, you know, you nailed it.

I really was thinking exactly the same thing.

And I'm happy that you had the courage to say these things.

Yep.

And we're going to we're going to talk about some of those points.

I think and maybe I have not been as forward.

But I've spoken publicly on how the book is I've had to read it a couple times.

And I think in your in your video, you explain that if everyone has to read something

multiple times, it might not be the best written material so that you mention that.

And I also I've publicly pushed back on on Nelson.

Like just because it says this in our Nelson Nations book doesn't mean that it's like we bow to it.

So I've and you know, and I've gotten maybe I've gotten pushed back on that.

I've gotten you know, maybe pushed back when it comes to yeah, just because that's the way

that we've always done something doesn't mean it's the right way.

And like let's challenge something.

I had someone this is a totally different topic.

I had someone tell me recently they said Caleb, if you 1035 a whole life policy,

you should go to jail.

Like they said that statement.

You know, and I guess I need to go to jail.

I've 1035 exchange a whole life.

It's a funny story.

I 1035 exchange a whole life policy that I designed.

I was the agent on both policies.

Yeah, so, but so that's a statement.

And I my initial reaction is not to jump over it.

I want to seek to understand, but I think those statements are tough

because I like, I personally know of situations where that would be a really,

really hard statement to like back up at all, all times, right?

Do I think it's a general lead?

Like I so, so all in general, I agree.

This is what I responded with.

And this is a, this is a person that's got more industry experience than I've been alive,

heavily respected.

And I said, I appreciate your understanding.

I want to get that same conviction.

Will you show me the numb and can we run through scenarios?

So it wasn't I, you're right.

You're wrong.

Like I'm seeking to understand, but I'm not just going to let your seniority

create a statement and then for me to stop asking questions.

And I think we need to be asking more questions and all.

So I want to preface that.

So there's that on the flip side, I had the pleasure of meeting Nelson a couple times.

Oh, good for you.

Good for you.

I had the pleasure of interviewing Nelson.

I had the pleasure of getting to know him.

I'm also not Catholic by the way.

And so I may be not as triggered by maybe some of the things about using scripture.

And we'll definitely talk about that in his book because I definitely think that rubbed

you the wrong way.

And I want to seek to understand, I think where the video that rubbed me the wrong way when

watching that was like, my producer just told me something wild.

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Like almost like let's attack ideas.

But almost like attacking maybe someone after they passed away.

And especially and again, like it's like he's fair.

He's fair game because you're a public figure.

When you're a public figure, it's not like you're going after someone that has no public following.

So that I just want to talk about that.

I've heard you call Dave Ramsey a hypocrite.

Right, right.

So the, and again, I have no problem with, I've also been very pleasant today from the same point

of what I respect.

And I personally wouldn't go after Dave's character from a sample.

Because I think he's actually got really, really strong character.

I may disagree with his opinions on things,

but I think he's very principled and for that I respect him.

But same thing with Arnelsson Nash.

I look at a man who's insanely principled.

And just from a standpoint of like, yeah, do I disagree with maybe some of the ways

that he explained things?

Absolutely, but he's a man that I see very principled.

And he's playing, he's playing, in my opinion, a bigger game than just insurance.

The insurance was always something that he was like backing into because of some of his principles.

And so even in the podcast that I interviewed, he said some things that, you know,

straight up, you could, you could take as being racist.

Like he literally said some things that we were like, man, if this was taken out of context,

like, I don't think you can say this.

But I looked at it as a, this is, you look at his age, you look at his upbringing.

I judged his character and what I know him.

And I'm like, does Nelson hate someone because they're absolutely not.

So there's maybe some things that he said that, you know, if someone had zero context,

they could maybe put him in a corner.

But like, I, I don't, I don't even feel bad about not even, it's included in the podcast

because it's just like, for those of you that know that you know, kind of deal.

So I just, I prefaced that by saying, I think potentially there's a, we can challenge people from

like the book idea from the maybe like, hey, I disagree with this.

I think the moment you, you maybe go at someone who especially is no longer here,

who's had an impact, you're going to get pushed back regardless around like, hey,

we can, we can challenge the books and stuff, but challenging his character.

And again, you have, I want you to speak to the, the Catholic thing.

You're, you're right to say that, but that's where, that's where I even when I was watching,

I was like, oh boy, Logan, you're, you're stirring the pot here because I'm like, I would not go

there with a 10-foot pole, but you did. And so, and I felt morally obliged to, I felt morally

obliged to. So you say I'm attacking Nelson Nash. I, I think I'm acting in self-defense.

You know, now, did I get emotional about it? Sure, but that's, I think, very understandable,

right? So if someone feels they, that their religion has been insulted, you're going to get

emotional. And so I would give people a lot of leeway for that, just understanding that, yeah,

it's something that is deliberately, deliberately hurtful. I respect the fact that Nelson

has principles. I respect the fact that the Nelson Nash Institute has principles. That's one of

the things I like about them. And in fact, I think you and I would disagree a bit on that because

that's one, some of the criticisms I've heard you throw the way of the Nelson Nash Institute

and Nelson Nash are actually the opposite, right? Where I would actually respect the fact that

they have principles and they live by those principles. I would take a bit more of a practical

approach when it comes to say working with banks, but I respect the fact that they have principles.

And I understand where they're coming from because the banking system is flawed, right?

And I respect the fact that they want to remove their financial energy from the banking system

as much as they realistically can. And I don't think it's fair to characterize Nelson Nash as

saying we're going to overthrow the Fed. I don't think that's a fair characterization of him.

I think he's much more realistic and practical saying, no, we can't do that, but you and I can,

right? Like there are things that you and I can do just like I can't overthrow the IRS,

but you and I can implement some tax strategies where we can reduce our tax burden, right?

So yeah, should I publish the video? Again, I feel like I had no choice and is it going to

rub a lot of people's long way? Yeah, but I don't feel like I was ever attacking Nelson.

Okay. I am talking about externals. I'm not judging anyone's character.

But I can and I must judge someone's external actions. That's the difference,

right? So, you know, I would say if there's been an attack, you know, then Nelson through the first,

you know, through the first shot over the bow, right? More than a shot over the bow,

punch to the face, right? So it was this something that you were aware of when you were a part of

the institute or was it something you like to wear after? I cannot remember when I was when I read

the book and I was shocked at the time and I said, oh, wow, okay. I can't remember exactly when

I read that book, but it was probably after I joined. It's probably when I became aware of it,

right? Okay. And this is by the way, one of the things you said earlier about you not being

cowed by somebody else's seniority. I think that's an important point because in every industry and

in every team, you want a good mix of people, you want a good mix of personalities and you want a

good mix of experience levels. You want the grizzled veteran and you also want the guy who's

totally green. I don't look down on people who have no experience because they come with a unique

perspective and there's always something that they can bring to the table that we shouldn't talk

down to them. Sometimes I think people in our industry gain a lot of experience and then they

they just won't listen to anyone who who is green and I think that's a problem. So I would say

me being an outsider to the Nelson National Institute is very valuable. Most of my career before

becoming an agent was doing consulting and I learned that as a consultant, I bring a very the

most underrated value that a consultant brings is that I'm an outsider. So I can see things that

people from the inside cannot see and they might be incredibly valuable people, but they're

insiders. And so there's certain things they cannot see and there's certain things they cannot

say that I as an outsider can and someone who's smart is going to value that perspective.

Just like when you get feedback from other people, it's valuable because you can't see yourself

from the outside, right? You can't see how you're being perceived. Maybe you're delivering what

you think is the right message, but it's not being received the way you want it to be received.

And so when people give you feedback, it's valuable. Then you can adjust your message without

compromising the the integrity of it. I guess here's my question. Do you because you called out to

people who we don't need to name in this video, but you call out to people that are labeled as

Catholic. I don't know anyone's hard. I don't know there what they're currently doing with their

lives. I'll just say that they they in the past said that they are Catholic and you made some

pretty strong statements about even judgment day and all. Do you do you think if someone is Catholic

being a part of the institute is like problem when it comes to like the underlying faith and

their convictions with it with the church? It's a good question. It's a good question. I don't

know that I have a clear black and white answer, but I would say there is some tension there

that they would need to address. How they address it? I don't know. I personally wouldn't want to

be a member or if I were a member, I would have to make it very clear that I'm not endorsing

this particular statement, this particular language that Nelson used. I have to be very careful

not to give any implicit consent to that sort of language. So I think that if you are a very

prominent well-known member of the Nelson Nash Institute, it's more incumbent upon you to

distance yourself from that rhetoric. How you do that is up to you. Maybe there is a path where

you can still be a member of the Nelson Nash Institute as long as you just make it clear.

I'm following this financial strategy. I'm not following these other writings of Nelson Nash.

Right. And I mean, for the most part, I would say the majority of people do that with almost

anything. I'm not I'm not going to assume that you voted for Donald Trump. I personally did.

And he's someone that I've not I would not agree with across the board. I think this is a common

common question across the board on a lot of people that perceive as being Christians is like you

look at two choices. People might be Duncan with me in the comments. I still, even though I do not,

I'm not quite frankly the biggest fan of especially this term and the things that are going down,

especially from a libertarian view. I chose I chose and I'm not regretting that choice to back

someone because I felt like he was a better choice than the other person. And so that is probably

the most extreme example that a lot of people can relate. And so for me, it's that that's a choice

that is like leading this country, which is arguably a much potentially bigger deal. But we make

these choices a lot. I do I do business. I probably have people on the show that I'm not necessarily

co-signing. And I would be a very miserable person if I was like, hey, I need to make sure

everything. It almost feels like a little bit like woke cancel culture in some cases. Like,

oh, this person said a tweet in 2016. Like now I need it. And so that's where I was just the

more like that's probably the pushback I would give. And again, we don't I again, we share.

And that's fair. And I don't think we're going to resolve that in this conversation. Like,

my intention was just say to those two individuals and to everyone, this is something you need to

consider. Because I think there are people who may not be aware of this, who if they were aware,

might distance themselves some more. And so all I'm saying is in your own mind and with your own

conscience, you need to address this. How you address it is up to you. How you address this

totally up to you. Because yeah, you're right. I certainly do business. I have to hold my nose and do

business with people all the time in our line of work. Because they're adding value to my clients,

I certainly wouldn't wouldn't want to take. I wouldn't want anyone to take that as an

implicit endorsement of everything that they're doing and saying. But I think I do think that

when I listen to those two gentlemen and others talk, it's on another level, right? Like, they

really are, it seems to me raising this man on a pedestal. It's not just, well, I'm a member of

the Nelson Nations, too, for practical reasons. And I don't agree with them on everything, but

I feel like I kind of have to be to do my work, right? So I'm not telling them what to do.

I'm not accusing them of anything. I'm just telling them, this is something you need to address

in your own mind. And I would view it as an act of charity. It's what we call, it's not even

fraternal correction, necessarily, but it's an act of charity is what it is. And what they do with it

is up to them. But I do think that's where an outsider's perspective can be valuable.

Yeah. One thing that you mentioned in your video that you said, Nelson, one thing you

respect about him is he was not into himself. Correct. And the, the people that had the pleasure

of meeting and spending time with them, one of the gentlemen that you called out, it's spent

a lot of time with Nelson. I would, I would consider Nelson was like a father figure to this

person. And when you're around someone who genuinely is not, like, Nelson was not playing

40 chess. He, he was, you got, you got what you got with him. And there was, I remember my first

interaction with him. I'm asking him a question. I had like a list. I was a type A, had a whole list.

I, we're at lunch and I got through two questions because he was giving me the exit

of story around. I'm like, Nelson, I ask you about PUA's. I don't ask you about the Moses

rescuing the, the people from Egypt, kind of deal. But, but again, like, and this is where like,

there's, there's some sage wisdom in that, whereas like, okay, in a world with Track GPT and Google,

everyone's wanting just quick answers. Right. And there's some, there's something really special

about saying, like, listen, you're asking this question. And let me like take 10 steps back,

because the question that you're asking is very a type A question. And you're in the process of

missing the big picture. And I also just, just to be clear, I, I have no problem with the institute

and people deciding on principle. Yes, I don't necessarily think we're, we're going to take over

the banking system and all. But like, if someone does not want to do business with banks, because

they don't want to do business with banks, totally respect that, we want 100%. Just don't gaslight me

and say that this is also great financial decision at the same time. It, it might be, but that's

not according to the numbers, but according to their comfort level or whatever. But yeah, don't

tell me like, so that's where I get passionate and I'll like push back, but I got it. So the,

so that's, so in, in my, I don't think they're gaslight you, by the way, I think they're just

in their own mind. They actually believe it. Believe it. Yeah. And, and so, but, but for me,

I almost give him a pass in some areas, because I'm like, man, when I spend time with Nelson,

like, he genuinely loves people. And like, he, I remember one day in class, I was like playing

phone tag with him and I was like, in college and I get a call from Nelson Nash and I like walk out.

And I just, I, those are the times I cherish. I'm like, I'm like, that's wild. I'm, I'm grateful

that I saw the call. I'm grateful that I had enough courage to like get out of class and take

a phone call. But those are the kind of things he was just checking in. And he was, there's a, so

all that to say, like, I think you even mentioned that, but that's where I go. That's where I think,

like, anyone that knows Nelson, I think, would, if they watch your video, would be, maybe, maybe

offended, just like you were offended by the statements that he made, you know, about. Yeah.

So, couple of things. Yeah. Almost being like, man, you're, you're mischaracterizing him,

or you're maybe potentially, I'm not potentially slandering his character. And he's not even alive

to, to back it up. We don't have to talk anymore, but I want to give you a time to respond. And then

I actually want to talk about what you admire about him before we go into some of the other

points that I think are totally fair game when you talk about his book being written, explaining

people, maybe like, not thinking for themselves, as you would say it, from a standpoint. We can talk

about all of that. I just, I want to address the thing that I felt like was most extreme about your

video. But I also think was the biggest reason you made the video. If I don't want to put words in

your mouth, but I think like that was where I saw the most passion about you speaking. And so

that's, that's what I wanted to start with. Yeah. I mean, I think you're mischaracterizing what I

was saying. I never slandered his character. I'm talking about his external actions, not judging

his internal character, which we have to, because for better or for worse, he is linked to the

infinite banking concept. And I'm talking about perception, right? Like I said, even if what I'm

saying is a hundred percent perception, which I'll grant that it is a hundred percent perception,

zero percent reality, it's still something we need to address, right? Because one of the things I

see with some members of the Nelson Nash Institute is when people try to give them feedback, they just

get frustrated and angry and tell them to shut up and I'm speaking the truth. Maybe you are speaking

the truth. And I'm not telling you to compromise your message or change it at all, but maybe you could

just receive that feedback and realize, okay, maybe there's a better way I can say this without

compromising the integrity of the message. But instead, they just get frustrated and angry and

just repeat themselves, right? And just say you just need to read the book again. Maybe or, you know,

maybe we can do a better job of explaining it. Maybe we should view this feedback as being

valuable. Some of it's not fair, I'm sure, but my experience has been no matter how

trolley someone is being. There's probably at least two percent of what they're saying that is

true and it is valuable. And ironically, Caleb, I'm sure you'll agree with me on this,

the negative feedback you get is way more valuable than the positive feedback that you get. The negative

feedback hurts. It definitely hurts. But if we can kind of take a step back, think about it,

realize, hey, there's actually something that's valuable here. I've always found that to be the

case. And even if it's just a perception issue, that should be good news. It's easier to fix a

perception issue, right? Right. Okay. I appreciate you saying that. Let's go to what you admire

about Arnelsa Nash next. And then we'll go into some of your other points. So if I had to ask you

Logan, list off some things that you really admire about Nelson. What would those be?

So first of all, he is the originator of the infant and banking concept. He is the authority figure,

give him credit for that. Another is I just think he's a really tough persevering,

fortitude and his kind of guy. He was really the lone voice in the wilderness. And he stuck to it,

right? And he didn't give up. He persevered a lot more than I probably would have.

I think he was just a very tough guy. And you have to be when you're in that situation where you're

kind of on your own. And there's something else I was going to say, but I lost it. But he's

certainly the authority figure on the infant and banking concept. I think he's also brilliant

in his own way, right? I mean, I think his his ability to apprehend these ideas and to see

something bigger, right? Obviously, we both know the infant and banking concept is not about

whole life insurance. A lot of people think that it is, but that's because they can't, they're missing

the bigger picture that Nelson would see. And I'll also say that his, you know, telling stories and

using analogies is actually in many ways very helpful, right? There, those can be very powerful

because oftentimes when people ask a question, there's a preconceived notion behind the question

that has to be addressed. So we got to back up. Let's not answer the question directly,

not just trying to dodge the question, but because we got to lay out the principles. Oh,

and that's the other thing. I respect the fact that he had principles and that he lived by those

principles, especially when it requires sacrifice, right? Because some people might have

principles that don't require much sacrifice to live. And okay, they may not be hypocrites,

but they're not exactly people you respect. But when you have principles that you live by

and it requires sacrifice and you're willing to do those sacrifices, I respect that also,

someone who has principles and who lives his life by those principles. I definitely respect that.

Yeah. I agree on the on the principle standpoint. And it's interesting because

I, when I think about his book, all the number portions aren't very clear. It's like clear as

mud in my brain, you know, because it obviously it's hard to comprehend. A lot of the

things. Let me interrupt you quickly say Nelson himself. Nelson himself admitted that if he

were going to write the book again, he wouldn't include any of those illustrations, right? So if

Nelson himself says the book has some flaws to it, then maybe we can acknowledge the book has

some flaws to it. Right. And but I was what I was going to say is like the golden rule or the

airplane analogy or the the shot analogy about volume versus interest or not letting the camel

in the tent. There's like I comp like there's a lot of those pieces that I will have the rest of

my life as like there's a principle tied to all of those. And so when you say, you know,

the book was poorly written and you know, it was clear, it's clear as mud from a standpoint and

not explaining the concept well. I think you said it's just the concept poorly. I want to

hear you out there because I think in a in a in a world you're you might be right depending

on how you're measuring it. But then there is something special about like why do you think his

book has sold so many copies? It's there's still a movement to this day. There's more videos being

made even by non practitioners on this concept. Like it's it's like we can say whatever we want

results speak louder than words. And it's never the the the concept itself. I'm not sure about

book sales, but the concept itself has never been stronger. And so it's so why do you think that is

if it was such if it was a poorly written wasn't explained well. Like right. Would it there be

another movement that would take off way faster? Like I know you probably thought through this. I

just I wanted to challenge you on it. Yeah. It speaks to the power of the message. Nelson Nash

was not the message. He was the messenger. And that's why I appreciate the fact that he didn't

make it about himself. It's about the message, not the messenger. And that's why I think Nelson

Nash, you know, if he could see what the Nelson Nash Institute is doing today, he might say,

guys, stop making it about me. It's not about me. It's about the idea. Let's let's talk about the

idea. That's what it's about. So there are other people I could compare them to that I think are

not the best messengers, but are sincere and are true believers. And if you're a true believer

and your idea is sound, that by itself will overcome a lot of these other deficiencies. Right.

I don't I think we all get sick of seeing the opposite where someone is like very slick. They know

how to talk. They know how to maneuver. Right. They come across so well. They sound so great. But

really what they're trying to do is just manipulate you. Right. And we see a lot of that. Nelson

Nash was a true believer. And I think that has a power all its own. So I still think that the

lack of clear communication hurts us. But still the message and the idea itself is so great that

it can overcome all those things. But I still think we can we can do better. Right. The reason why

I bring this up is because I respect the Nelson Nash Institute. If I didn't respect them,

I wouldn't bother talking about these things. If I didn't believe in the infinite banking concept,

I wouldn't bother talking about these things. If I didn't think Nelson Nash was a great man in

many ways, I wouldn't bother talking about him. Right. So they they should. I hope take it as a

sign of respect that I think it's important enough to talk about these things. I hear you.

When you talk about, you know, the you you said in your video that most practitioners that you

talk to or people in the in the institute can't articulate what infinite banking really is or

the concept itself. If you like, what would you how would you answer that? And I think you even

admitted that you don't necessarily have the right solution for it. I don't have the answer. How would

you answer that? Because I think there's actually some beauty in not having like this is exactly

what you say in the elevator. And it might be one of the reasons why it's still last to this day.

Because it's like, how do you how do you explain your Christian faith? Like that's a there's a

tons of different ways you can answer that. Or it's like you ask how do you explain the gospel?

You could get a hundred priests and pastors in the same room. And there may be a difference in

how someone articulates that. But I'm just curious like, how would you if you were running the

institute, what would you what would be like the key things that you would you would almost have to

be like I'll use the gospel as example. Like there's certain core aspects when you're explaining

the gospel you have to mention for it to be the gospel. But then it then there's a lot of different

flavors. What would be your core message when it comes to infinite banking? So there's a lot

of things there. First of all, in terms of the stated the stated positions of the Nelson

Nations, dude, I would change nothing. I have no problem with what they say. It's more about the

strategy. It's more about the behavior, right? I was kicked out of the Nelson Nations to

providing exactly zero of their rules, right? They're they're written rules anyway. So it's more of

a culture thing, I would say. There's a lot you threw at me there. First of all, I would say that

I disagree with you. When it comes to the Holy Catholic faith, we have very simple, very clear

articulations that you can look up anywhere. St. Thomas Aquinas, the Roman Catechism,

their place you can go to that will very precisely lay out and very concisely. Here's exactly what

we believe. But within that, there is an infinite ultimately mystery. You could spend your whole

life trying to articulate it and you would never plumb the depths, but you can precisely define.

Here's the meaning of life. Here's what we believe. Period. And I think it's similar with the

infinite banking concept. You should be able to clearly precisely articulate what it is. Period.

That doesn't mean that that exhausts everything about it, right? That just means you indicate

here's what it is. And I do not have the answer. I think some people think that I'm saying I have

the answer. I don't, but I can see that there's an issue, right? And I don't know that,

you know, and that's where I think going back to the book so much hurts us a little bit because we

don't come up with, we don't really grow or understanding doesn't grow. We just keep going back

to the book. Okay, we can use that as a starting point. If you want to call it the starting point,

the foundation, I'm fine with that. That doesn't mean our understanding can never grow, right?

I think one of the reasons why Nelson and the book and all have taken off is he truly was,

he wasn't in it for the money. That's really, really clear. And so it's like, okay, if someone were

to write this part two, probably David Sterns would be maybe the only person that could do it

with still. Because there could be lots of people that could participate, but then it's like,

okay, what's the motivation? Is the motivation for money? Is it for fan? Like how? And so I think they,

they, and that's, that's a tricky situation. And so there's been lots of innovation in areas,

but there's also like protection because it's like, hey, we don't want any, even if their

persons are super well intention, they can hijack the, the movement. And that's, that's what's tricky.

And so yeah, I don't have the, the best solution. I will say just again, to give them

their credit, they do require you to take an assessment and test. That's, I've been very

public about that. That's why it took me years to become a practitioner is it's like, I hate tests

and I just never got around to it. But to their credit, you go through a course and, and then you,

you, so they want you to have some basic understanding. Now we could, we could debate the course that

I taught or that I went through and passed. Does that really translate into me helping someone

with when it comes their money? We, we get that that's a debt separate conversation. But they,

they were forward thinking enough to say, hey, we need this, we need to, we can't just co-sign

anyone that wants to pass money. Respect that. They also have a list of reasons. So why co-sign

anyone? Right? I mean, I think that's, again, I don't, I don't have a problem. If they want to have

their officially authorized practitioner problem, I have no problem with that per se. So again,

when it comes to like their officially stated positions, I don't disagree with them. We agree on

all the substantive issues, 100%. It's more about the strategy. To me, you know, I, I don't know

that that's the best strategic move, because now the problem is you are co-signing people who

become officially authorized. And you, now, if those people do something wrong, which at some point,

someone will, now you get caught up in the, in the fallout from that. You know, so I would,

to use a word you, who's, I would, I would take a bit more of a libertarian view and just say,

we're here to support you. Here's what we believe in, but we're not going to co-sign on anyone.

But how do they get paid? What, what, what would be the way that you would, do they need to get paid?

Well, I mean, if they could get donations, right? I mean, people, there are plenty of true believers

in the infinite banking concept who say, yeah, this is a good institution. I want to support them.

But doesn't the idea of donating go, go against free market? Like, it wouldn't that almost be a

slapping the face in itself is if the institution would just rely it on donations?

No, because it's voluntary, right? The, the point of the free market is voluntary. There

doesn't have to be a profit motive, as long as it's voluntary. What does go against the free

market is sending out cease and desist letters, right? Where you're using government, the threat of

government violence to silence people. That's anti free market. That's something I think Nelson

would have serious reservations with because Nelson Nash believed in Austrian economics,

right? Again, he was a very intelligent, well-read man. And he saw that the Austrians, according to him,

have it correct. Bob Murphy is a famous Austrian economist, right? And so I think most of them,

you know, I think Nelson Nash would have a serious problem with the way that the Nelson

Nash Institute is using government violence or the threat of government violence to shut people

down. And even putting aside the morality of it, I just don't think it's productive, you know?

I hear you. You, you mentioned in your, in your video that you, like even the idea of think-long

range is a, is a poor, poor example. You did, you early on when you, you mentioned like Aristotle

in your video, and I'm like, oh my goodness, like we have some high standards. I'm like, I would,

I would fail every, everything's I've read zero on Aristotle, so put me in that category as well.

But I'm just curious, like I actually like the concept of thinking-long range. I get what you're

saying about eternity and all, but what is the problem with thinking 50 years, 70 years down? I mean,

I might not live to 50 years from now or 70 years from now, but what's, what's the problem with

thinking that I, that shouldn't stop there. We should think, hopefully, if, especially if you're

a believer, eternity, but I don't, which is the opposite. So, so you're saying, so that's not

thinking in terms of eternity. First of all, we don't know the world's going to be around 50 years

from now. I don't know when the world is going to end, but it will end. And according to St.

Teresa, obviously, anything that hasn't end shouldn't be thought of as having any valued all.

So we should not think long range, right? Think, some people think that thinking in terms of

eternity means time that just goes on forever. No, it's the opposite. Eternity is the

Stan's nuke, the Stan's nuke, the standing now. It's one moment stretched out forever. It's the

opposite of time. It's not like you go 50 years, 100 years, 500 years, and then once you get far

enough out on the continuum, you get to eternity. No, eternity is the opposite, right? So you cannot

think long range and think in terms of eternity. Those two are conflicting, right? Because whether you

think long range or whether you think short range, you're now thinking in terms of time. But eternity

is not time. It's not time bound, right? So if I think 50, 70 years into the future, there's a lot

of presumption on my part that I know something about the future when I know nothing about the future.

The world might not be here 70 years from now, right? I might not be here. So as far as I'm concerned,

my job is to save my own soul, right? And once I enter into the next life, none of this other stuff

matters at all, right? So I think think long range is not the correct way to articulate it. The

correct way to articulate it is proper financial structure. The medievals who built these magnificent

cathedrals, they were thinking in terms of eternity. They started those cathedrals. Many of them

never saw the completion of the cathedrals, but they weren't. They didn't say, let's think long

range. They just understood that if you want to build a huge structure, you need a large foundation,

and it takes time to build all those things up. But they were just doing it because of eternal

principles. And if they drop dead tomorrow, it will still have merit, not because of the cathedral

itself, because that's going to end with the end of the world, but because I was hopefully doing it

for the right reasons and performing an act of virtue. And that's what ultimately matters.

Try not to get too philosophical. Yeah, no, I just, I'm trying to seek to understand, because I,

it's, so you have a problem with someone, like just because I'm thinking 30 years from now,

how I read that is, is, and it's a very biblical, in my opinion, is due, because you read proverbs,

proverbs is very, there's a ton around like, like delaying gratification, being disciplined,

even building storehouses of wealth. And, and so I, like, I just think of anytime you zoom out,

things, things get a lot more, like maybe your priorities shift a little bit. And just because

I might not be around 50 years from now, it doesn't mean that the decisions won't, won't have a

ripple effect. And yeah, of course, it's like, no one knows, no one knows the hour that, that,

that crisis coming back. So I just, I want to preface that where it's like, I just don't see

them as, uh, contradicting. I don't see thinking, um, about my daughter's, kids, and like,

thinking about what can we establish today as being problematic with attorney? Yeah. In fact,

I, I think one of the most valuable things that you can do is like, be thoughtful about your death,

and, and all because it makes you live more intentionally today. So that's, but, yeah, well,

I don't agree about living intentionally. That's contrary to having faith in divine providence.

It rests on two false presuppositions. One, that I'm in charge of my life. No, I'm not.

Yeah. My life would look completely different. I didn't choose to have all these health issues

that limit me. I'm not in charge of anything. The only thing I'm in charge of is my own

very weak will. That's the only thing I'm in charge of. The other false presupposition behind

living intentionally is that I know what's best for me. No, I don't. Right. Unless the Lord

build the city, they labor and vane who build it. You know, so what I need to do is just focus on

the current, the present moment, live in the present moment, not brewed over the past,

not having anxiety over the future, or the false presumption that I can plan for the future. Right.

So when I lay out, you know, a life insurance illustration, I'm doing it not to say,

this is what's going to happen 30 years from now. I'm doing it to illustrate a concept. So we

understand what's going on. Right. So I'm against living intentionally. What we should be doing

is like the title of a book says, abandonment to divine providence. That's really what we should be

doing, letting somebody else be in charge, not letting me be in charge, not letting me make the

decisions. Because if I make the decisions, first of all, I can't even affect what I want to

affect. There are a lot of things that I want that if I try to get them, I'm just going to be

frustrated. Right. So, you know, I think again, it goes back to proper building proper financial

structure. And the reason why I think thinking long ranges is challenging is that it implies that

infinite banking doesn't make sense today. It only makes sense 30 years from now. Right.

I put the policy in force today, but really what I'm doing doesn't make sense until 30 years from

now. It makes sense today. It doesn't make sense today. It doesn't make sense at all. Right.

Yeah. Look, I hear you and I feel like we should be on a different podcast and we could probably

talk about it. We're getting dry. Do it totally different. And so some of it is just a philosophical,

maybe like, because I do have some disagreements, but it doesn't really have anything to do with

with the topic. Right. Right. I think getting to our articulation of that. But I think Nelson would

appreciate we're talking about first principles. I agree. No, I agree. So do not believe in a

state plan. Like when you a state planning, if someone comes, you know, we do a state plan. Yeah,

no, we do it. But always, but always with a great deal of humility, we do it because we're

called to be responsible stewards of everything that we are given in this life, not because I have

some presumption that I know what the future is going to hold. Right. Yeah. I might die tomorrow when

my state plan might blow up no matter how well I've constructed it. It's always possible.

Some some greedy government bureaucrat or some, you know, slick attorney might blow up my

estate plan. Right. I do it because it's the right thing to do. I could build that cathedral

and a storm could destroy it. Right. I do it because it's the right thing to do not because I have

some presumption that I have any control over events in the future. Okay. All right. We'll move on.

Another point that you made is you're you're not a fan of Nelson using scripture in his book.

And so, you know, I'm come from the Protestant world. I don't have a problem with that. In fact,

I appreciate people that lead with that. But I also want to just cut. I am very wary of people

using scripture to potentially push an agenda. And so maybe I just give Nelson a pass because I

I'm giving him like I can't know anyone's intent. But when you meet him, you're like, okay,

this person's not trying to like play 40 chess and manipulate people. Like he's genuinely,

he wouldn't say anything about his intentions. Yeah. You keep putting words in my mouth. I

didn't say anything about Nelson's character or his intentions. So I'm not saying any I'm not

pushing back on you. I'm just letting you know why for me, I don't have any problems with it.

He's talking about scripture. But I do. I am wary when people use scripture just in period.

I just in business, if someone is really, really public about their faith, be more cautious because

that's just like it's just there's more nightmares. Why do you have a problem with someone like him

in his book using scripture and examples in his writing?

Well, in the way that he does it, I'm not judging anything about his character or his intention,

it is blasphemous. So I'm against blasphemy. scripture can be used in a way that is blasphemous.

And we're not going to repeat any of that. Like I don't I'm not going to

otherwise I'd be spouting blasphemy too. So and I agree with I agree with what you said that

you know the more there's always an inverse. Now I'm not talking about Nelson. I'm extracting

from that, but there's always an inverse relationship between how much somebody talks about something

versus how much they actually do it. So I agree with you, the more someone

leads with scripture, the more you need to be cautious. Like wait a minute, why do you feel the need to

keep saying that? Just live it. And then people will see that you're living it. So yeah, I have

a problem with the way that Nelson uses it in his book. I'm not going to explain any of the

details behind that. Again, I'm not judging his character. I don't know the man. I don't know anything

about his intentions, but there are blasphemous ways of using scripture and those I'm certainly

against. So the definition of blasphemy is the act of showing disrespect essentially.

I know that you don't necessarily want to cover anything because in your opinion, if you cover

cover it, you're also yeah, it's not good to draw attention to it. It's not good to draw attention

to it's not helpful. But those are strong words like showing an act of disrespect. Those are like,

I would say saying that I am blasphemy, which would I would be a part of that because I've

definitely used scripture in talks and all. I'm not sure if I use them in videos. I'm just

curious like, what is this a Catholic thing or is this an opinion thing? I don't think so. No,

I think, I mean, I think, I think, I agree with what you said, I think that there are,

let's abstract from Nelson for the moment. I think that all of this can agree that there are

people, especially in our space, unfortunately, who will use scripture basically as a means to

promote their own business. And we can all agree that's not something you should be doing, right?

I try to avoid using any of the sacred texts in my business at all. I try to avoid it completely.

Because now I do think it's fair to say maybe, I don't even know if this is true, but maybe it's

true that Catholics have an elevated sense of reverence for sacred texts and sacred things such

that we don't even want to mention them. We don't even want to speak them because even to speak

them is just making light of them. Maybe that's a better way to say it. Maybe I shouldn't

say blasphemous. I can, I can maybe take that back a little bit and say maybe making light of

maybe a bit of irreverence might be a better way to say it rather than out and out blasphemy.

But yeah, it always makes me very nervous when I see people quoting scripture unless you're

a priest in the pulpit. I don't know why you would do that. The point is to live it, don't quote it,

right? Otherwise, you're potentially making yourself a hypocrite.

Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll just I'll just say that it really, really, really rubbed me the wrong way.

Yeah. And I'm not the only one. I'm not the only one I can tell you. And for that same reason,

that's attracted people like myself to to the movement, not because I'm like, wow, someone is

willing in a world. Well, you know, how some people like don't bring politics and faith into

something. Again, you got to be careful. And I also, I do appreciate when people, you know,

stand for something. And they, they, you know, but I think you got to be careful. And we're

going to all go before the Lord someday. And he's, he's the only one that can really judge

intentions. And so I just, that was probably the last thing I want to cover. Is there anything

that I didn't ask you about? Is there anything that after reflecting that you're like, hey,

these, these are what I want on record. I, I do appreciate you willing to have this conversation

because I, you know, you all get criticized regardless. I'll, I'll be criticized if I don't comment

on your video. I hope you get criticized for bringing you back on. I, I don't necessarily care

about the whole platform platforming thing. I just don't. I think we should be challenging ideas.

And hopefully in someone watching this gained more. But what else would you like to say before

we land the plane on this topic? I would just say, let's try to focus on the idea. Let's focus

on the ideas. And I think that's what Nelson Nash would want. He wouldn't want us focused on him.

And, you know, I think that his ideas are sound financially speaking. I don't think I would

disagree with Nelson on anything. I think he's brilliant. I think his financial ideas are very

sound and very insightful. And same thing with what the Nelson Nash Institute states publicly,

I 100% agree with their ideas. But maybe, maybe it's more a question of strategy. What's the

best way of promoting these ideas? What's the best way moving forward, right? And I, and again,

I hope that this is, it's probably, it's going to be seen, unfortunately, as bashing people

have used that word. That's not my intention to bash anyone. But I do judge externals. And I think

self-hatred is a bad thing. But self-criticism is a good thing. That's how we move forward.

So I hope that they'll take it as, you know, a helpful series of questions

rather than by being negative. Yeah, you've offered a good question. What would, if you were in

their shoes, would you be leaning towards anything? Like, would you, in your opinion, you think they

should just get rid of the institute, like certifying people and have it be more of a nonprofit,

have people voluntarily give if they like the concept. Like, what do you, what would you do if

you're in their shoes to try to correct some of the things that you see that you don't, you don't like?

Well, it's a good question. I don't have an answer. Let me be clear. I, I think,

precisely identifying the problem is half the battle. What's the solution? I don't know. I don't

have a solution. You know, I haven't thought through. So I'll give an answer that's not thought

through. So I might regret this later, but I probably wouldn't have officially authorized

practitioners. I would more try to promote and encourage the infinite banking concept.

Then there's lots of different ways you could potentially do that, like providing resources for

agents to get trained. And if you want, then you could just charge for the training and saying,

hey, we're not endorsing you. We're not giving you any kind of certificate. But if you want to take

advantage of these resources, you pay us a fee. I think mentorship would be great. And I'll give

them credit. I think that's something they're trying to build. That's really challenging. But having

like apprenticeships would be awesome. And I give them credit. They're trying to build that, but

that's really hard to do that right. But I don't, I don't have the answer. I would just say, yeah,

I probably wouldn't be giving anyone official stamps of approval. I probably wouldn't be doing

that. One last thing because I'm just curious how you would go about it. You've mentioned in your

video about the cultish worship of Nelson. And what there is a fine line between worshiping someone

that's that is, I think that's blasphemy. I think that's a definition of like if you if you it's a

idolatry. It's not blasphemy. It's idolatry. Yeah. You worship someone. So that that just

further record, not and Nelson himself would say not not to do that. There is a fine line between

like honoring somebody and remembering them and holding traditions. And you know, that's one of

the ways that you build build tradition. What right. It's a fine line. I think we both can acknowledge

that anything you want to comment on on that because I've I've come a very full circle here. And

I think it also goes back to the if if someone says like this is the way I do it because Nelson

said in his book or Nelson Nelson had a conversation this is he said I can respect that you're telling

me that but I that does nothing for me because it's like let's let's talk about today. What's the best

let's make the best idea when but I also in the same breath would be like I want to go above and

beyond and honor people that have come before us. I don't know why I'd I have to really think of

like what what about me likes honoring people, especially the people that have passed. Maybe it's

because I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for someone like him or whatnot. So I do think it's

a fine line. I personally don't put him on a pedestal and and would consider worshipping him. But

I but I also spend more time thinking about him than other people because of the impact he's had

on my life. Yeah. So you knew the man personally, right? This is one of the reasons why I think I

can be a bit more objective. I can understand totally why people get emotional and upset if they

knew Nelson personally. And if those people get emotional and upset over what I'm saying, I totally

understand. You know, he was your friend. He was your family member. You knew the man just like I'm

going to get upset and emotional because of some other things that Nelson said that attack

very in a very vicious underhanded way. Things that are near and dear to my heart. So for me,

you know, Nelson's legacy will always be tainted because of some of the totally inexcusable

things that he said about the religion that I hold dear and that cannot be excused. Do I know

his intentions? No. Do I judge his character? No. But that external behavior is completely

inexcusable in one of his published edited works. So for me, I wouldn't honor him. I would honor

the infinite banking concept. And if we want to in a limited sense honor him because he was the

foremost expounder of that, okay, that's fine. But to me, it always would have to have a huge

gigantic asterisk next to it. And there's some analogies I'm thinking of that I won't say because

I'll just make people more angry. But again, honoring people who are gone. Sure, that's a good

valid tradition. It's a it's a good thing to do. But maybe this also comes from me being a Catholic

too, which is that, you know, we have canonized saints. Those are the people that we venerate.

If someone has not been canonized, yes, we need to do what's required of us in charity, but we

need to be careful to not go beyond that, right? Because I think all of us, what we tend to do is

we replace God basically with a person, somebody else, some other thing, person place or thing.

And so we just have to be careful to to avoid that. And I think you'll agree with me that there

are some people who, like you said, they they'll say, well, I I do this because that's what Nelson

Nash said. Okay, that's a starting point. That's weighty that adds authority, but that in itself

is not an argument. Logan, I appreciate you taking the time addressing all these things

and articulating this. And I hope that people have waited till the end to listen to our whole

conversation that you will consider that before you're commenting. And I do appreciate the

thoughtful comments. I think we can learn from all all perspectives. And I have one perspective.

And I do look forward to hearing other people's perspectives on this.

Where I will we'll have you back on again soon and very much appreciate your time.

Yeah, I really appreciate your diplomatic approach. I really appreciate that you're trying to be

a bridge builder. I try to learn from you. And I'm trying to get better at it. I'm not as good as

you. So I definitely, I think one of the reasons why I get more hatred, I'll be honest, like I'll

all apply it to myself as I need to do a better job of being diplomatic. I could say things

better in a way that wouldn't be as emotionally charged. And I need to do a better job of that.

And you've helped me to see that. So when I get negative comments, I try to say, okay,

what about this is true? And invariably there's some kernel of truth to it, right?

And what can I change? I can't control their behavior. So and again, thank you so much for having me

on your show. Obviously, you're someone I respect a lot. If you're an advisor, life insurance agent,

or someone who just loves the life insurance space, we have a must attend event for you.

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