Conversation With John-Michael Liles

Let's bring on our friend of the show, John Michael Liles.

It's been a while since we've seen you.

Everything good, Johnny?

Yeah, everything's good.

Thanks a lot for having me, guys.

Yes, by the way, to your text,

the answer would be yes to that, Johnny.

I do wanna talk about the abs today,

but before we get into the abs,

there's a couple of other topics in the NHL

that I mean, you played in this league

for I don't know, like 50 years or something like that.

So I do always appreciate your opinion.

And I know you're such a sort of a beloved guy

amongst your peers.

And so I wanted to start with the Cole Hudson signing

in conversation and make it more of like a general conversation.

Like I've been watching the island

quite a bit lately and Matthew Schaeffer.

And you know, Lane Hutton is been a guy

who has offensively taken this league by storm.

And so it seems like there's this new resurgence

of the fence men that are under six feet tall.

Skate really well and are basically just accepted

that they don't play a position.

Like you watch Matthew Schaeffer play

and the islanders are so good at having a third forward high.

They just assume one guy is always gonna need to make sure

when he's on the ice.

And by the way, islanders fans,

I'm not knocking your guy right now.

What these guys do is incredible.

I'm just saying it's interesting how the game has sort of now

accepted that with one guy on every team.

And it was really never like that.

Well, you left out one name though, Cole.

But you think Quinn Hughes is a big part of that?

With Hughes too, yeah, I'm not.

All these guys look up the Quinn Hughes though.

You know, like all these guys look like the Quinn Hughes.

I was like, yeah, I mean, listen,

it's super interesting because,

and you can see I'm in a closet here.

We're in a rental house in Denver.

But the, you know, now it feels like,

and I think you hit the nail on the head.

It feels like there's an acceptance of this offensive

defenseman that, you know what,

we're gonna defer to their offense.

And not really like, it used to be that,

hey, you have to play defense, right?

Like you have to play defense first.

And then you can play offense.

And like, I can still remember coaches saying to me,

you need to hit more.

I'm like, okay, I'm 5'10, 185 pounds.

Like, I mean, it's like, I'm bouncing off

of most of these guys, but sure,

I'll try and hit some more.

Like, that's not what I'm really bringing to the table,

but if that's what you think that I'm bringing to the table,

sure, I'm happy to try and provide that.

So now it's more like, okay, you do you,

you be offensive and we're because of your offensive abilities.

And whether that's, you know, Quinn Hughes,

whether that's Lane Hudson, whether that's Matthew Shaffer,

who has been unbelievable, you know,

and I think you can throw Kayle McCarr

in that mix to agree in the sense of like,

how much offense he provides.

Now what I'll say is Kayle McCarr defensively

is really, really good.

And I think the way that coaches now view it is like,

maybe they don't hammer guys in the corner

and maybe they're not, you know, like physically imposing,

but if they get the puck on their stick,

if they're able to create a turnover,

what they bring in transition and then offensively,

you know, inside the offensive zone is well worth the,

you know, I don't want to call it a risk,

but just maybe like not being able to hit

and pin a guy for five seconds like it used to be.

And so it's interesting to see, you know,

the evolution of the game because yeah,

it used to be played defense first

and then join the offense.

Well, now it feels like it's more be offensive first.

And if you are going back and you're in the defensive zone

and somebody's coming to run you through the boards,

maybe don't take that hit

and maybe try and get the puck another way.

And so, you know, it has, it has, you know,

been a change, I think, throughout the NHL.

And when you have these guys, the Quinn Hughes

is the Hudson's, the Shaifers, the McCars,

you know, the Bouchards, the guys that are so good offensively,

it's almost worth that kind of tipping the scales

the other way is the way that, you know, I look at it

versus what it was 15 years ago, 20 years ago

where it was, okay, we are, you know,

we're a physical team and we've got, you know,

one or two guys that provide offense from the blue line.

I think I don't want to like necessarily make this a critique,

but you said Bouchard, right?

Like Bouchard, I think it's still different though.

Like these guys, for me and what you were talking about,

they rely so much on their skating.

Like they're, yeah, they're like,

they're like able to take the risk

because they can get back quickly enough to recover.

Yeah, but Johnny, I'm going to even push back on you there.

Yeah, please do, yeah.

And I played with John Michael Isles

and you would skate like a freaking win.

Imagine if someone literally just said to you,

go play position, let's hockey,

you would have had double the amount of points

that you did have because they still were

thinking you, if you're going to go up and be in the corner,

you got to be the first one back.

Yeah, I watched Quinn Hughes, I watched Shaefer,

I watched Lane Hudson, there's a lot of shifts

where these guys are actually the last guy back

and there's so many other players that are back.

There's no need for them.

Like I've seen Lane wait for a breakout pass

at the far blue line and not come all the way back.

Like it is different, Johnny.

Like I get your point, they skate really well or last,

but like it's just a very different acceptance

of like you're not, you'll have a position and more.

Yeah, and that yes to a degree, yes.

And I'm not, I don't know that I agree

with like you don't have a position.

What it is is you have the freedom if you see it

because of your offensive instincts, you go

and we'll read off of you.

And I think that's frankly, I think coaches

have changed in that regard a little bit.

I just, I feel like they're more accepting

of these young players.

Like hey, would I love to play in this game right now?

Absolutely.

You know, I'd love it to eat your contract

and freedom to do whatever the hell I wanted.

And I'd love to know, I grew up a forward.

I'd love to play D now.

I'd never be hurting watching you go up

and down the ice, Johnny.

I would be like, I didn't wish last watching you go.

Yeah, no, it's, I would have very much enjoyed playing

this game.

But at the same time, like, yeah, I think to a degree,

it is, it's the coaches, it's the general managers,

it's the philosophy of, you know what?

Like these are, when you look at it,

and I guess, you know, underlying numbers come into play,

I think a lot more now than than they used to.

But okay, we're looking at these underlying numbers.

Do they create way more offense

than they potentially, you know, give up going the other way?

And I think when you look at these guys,

the Matthew Shaifers and whatnot,

like they're looking at it saying, okay,

the way that he creates offense

and everybody else can read off of what he's doing.

So even if that's a third forward high,

guess what, Matthew Shaifer may drive the puck

down below the goal line

and still find that third forward high

in the high slot for a scoring chance.

Lane Hudson, the same way, like,

Quinn Hughes, I mean, if I went across the blue line

and back and back and back on a shift,

and I came off, Jacques Cloutier would have sat me down

and said, hey, that's, oh buddy, we don't do that, right?

Like, that's, you know, so, like,

so Vela Faye would have looked at me,

like I had to be hit.

Why is it not a like that?

It's why I would not have liked that.

But now it's like, if you can shake that top forward

and you do it, call it 20 times out of 22, right?

And without losing the puck and without, you know,

the puck going out of the zone,

all of a sudden, now everybody else that's playing D

is like, oh shit, he just beat our top guy.

You know, now we have to read.

And then now everybody's reading all your teammates

are reading off of you.

I just think that the skating ability

of these younger D and the offensive instincts, so good.

I mean, we've seen so many D over the years

that have just amazing offensive instincts.

This to me is a different version, right?

This is a, like you said, it's, I don't want to call it

positionless, but it borderlines on being a fourth forward.

Yeah.

With the ability to skate backwards really well

and be the first guy back if need be with your skating.

So that to me is more of the, if you want to define it,

that to me is what it feels like.

See John Laz, it seems like they're always skating forwards too, right?

These guys are always, they're always surfing.

I mean, even, I'd even throw, like we're talking

about skating ability, Charlie McAvoy.

He's like never skating backwards.

He's always surfing.

He's always pressing up.

He takes away, Quinn Hughes.

He takes away so much time and space

by skating forwards at guys or skating.

It is this new, it really is.

I would agree.

It just looks so much different.

There were, there were guys like Carlson and Latang.

Yeah.

These guys that were insanely gifted offensive defensemen.

There's a whole list of them, right?

Through the, through the 2000s and even the 2010s, 15s.

But now this is like this new shaper,

this new shaper-like defenseman, Quinn Hughes,

shaper-laying, it is just a whole new echelon

Laz of talent.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong here, but it feels like

where the game has changed the most.

It's like 15 years ago, when I was growing up,

you were taught to create offense off the cycle

below the bottoms of the circles.

And now you're creating offense

above the tops of the circles.

You're getting the puck out high

and you're bringing that forward.

You're having the forward climb the wall

and you're almost creating some sort of interchange

up high in the zone, which causes confusion for the D.

So instead of creating offense down low,

you're creating it up high.

And that's where the game has like really changed.

Well, what we're seeing now, I would say,

is you're seeing a five-man cycle.

And coaches have had to go to that.

And maybe part of that is because of the old Boston system,

like I finished with the Bruins,

where the Dean never goes above the hash marks.

And the center always would flex out

the Patrice Berger on days.

And I think part of that was Chara

and they wanted to keep him closer to the net front

and shut down cycles in the corner and Boy Chuck

and guys like that, where now that five-man cycle

almost forces those players to get out

of their comfort zone in the defensive zone.

Because now if you're playing man on man

or even if it's a zone, that five-man cycle,

there's so much more reads and what they're trying to do

is make those defenders uncomfortable

and not just work in half of that offensive zone.

Now they're working in that entire offensive zone,

blue line down and part of that is coaching, part of that

is how do we create more offense

not just below the goal line?

And I think that now you see coaches

that are, I guess, more agreeable to that

and allowing those players to thrive,

especially those offensive defense

in the skate so well and read the play so well.

Yeah, it does make for fascinating conversation.

And by the way, I love the US Olympic team helmet,

the Bauer 4,000 old school.

I love that.

Listen, one thing you had later in your career

when you started warrior and all that,

maybe not as good, but man, when you're a Bauer guy

with Eastern stick, your style with something

that I was like, this is the whole journey right here.

My first training camp with all my CCM stuff,

I remember looking at your snorkel

and that's the way I wanted to look one day

for Bauer 4,000 Bauer 4,000 love,

Eastern stick with the blue bottom.

I mean, you had it going pretty good.

Those are the good old Nike Bauer days too for a while.

So then it was like that was like the top of the style pyramid, right?

But yeah, the Bauer 4,000 kind of faded out on me

when I started getting concussion after concussion.

I had to figure out something that might be,

maybe had a little more padding in there.

People say you got a concussion just from putting it on.

Oh god, it was, yeah.

I mean, like I think, you know, I mean, you guys know,

like all four years of college,

they got the same helmet.

We never, you know, never had a brand new one.

So it was just, it was literally like just concrete.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, the pictures of John Carlson,

wearing that like 4,500.

Yeah.

So unnatural, but I remember you in Boston,

I think that was the first time you went to the bigger helmet

when you were in Boston.

And I remember just seeing that being like,

this just, this looks unnatural to me.

Yeah, it definitely felt a little strange,

but you know, it was, I was just trying to keep my brain

somewhat functioning for another year.

I guess.

I'm looking it up.

It was it was a warrior, I think, at the time.

Yeah, I think I wore an Eastern helmet in Carolina

a little bit, but yeah, I mean, I was, I was,

I was, I was, our 4,000, even into Toronto days.

And then I think as I went down to Carolina,

I think, yeah, all of a sudden,

you're having a family realize you maybe

keep the brain functioning for, you know,

at least try and get to their 18 years old.

You know, someone's got to be able to be able to read

Katz Kanski.

I can't be the only one reading every single night.

All right, we mentioned the Toronto May beliefs.

So I got to ask you, as a guy who spent time in that market,

they are just in the news right now for all the wrong reasons.

And, and, you know, we saw what happened with that hit.

And I loved what Kevin B. Exit had on Hockey Night in Canada

the other night, he said, like, don't we value courage?

And he goes, well, it was really selfish of those guys

not to just jump right in because if you don't jump right in,

you're thinking about, what am I going to,

what's going to happen to me?

Am I going to get suspended when you probably don't think

about anything other than I'm going to commit, you know,

some form of murder on the ice after a play like that.

I mean, were you as feeling as this was as egregious?

Forget the hit. We such a bad hit.

It's a terrible hit.

I think you should have been doing that since he stepped in the league.

Like, it's like, I mean, when somebody said,

Gouda's made a terrible hit.

I was like, I mean, yeah, that's, I've seen it for the last however many years.

I mean, whatever, like I get that he's a, you know, an effective player to a degree.

But like, I remember him coming in, I think he came in with Tampa

and he was doing the same thing.

Like, how maybe it's a little fewer.

Yeah, I've made him a Norfolk in the American way.

He was, he was butchering guys down there too.

And I said it last week off the ice.

He's a teddy bear.

I, the guy is a literal teddy bear off the ice.

I was his neighbor in Philly, but you hate to see that type of play.

But as bad as the hit was, that non-response in the moment is,

is baffling to me, Johnny.

Like, at this point, I mean, yeah, what do you do if you're the main beliefs?

I, that, I mean, that's the, that's the question because for the last couple of years,

everybody pointed that, oh, it's Mitch Mariner, right?

It's Mitch Mariner.

They have to, you know, Mariner's the problem, Mariner's the problem.

Matthews performs and, and Nielander performs well.

Be careful what you wish for, right?

Because now you don't have Mitch Mariner and, and it, it hasn't gotten any better.

I don't know who all was on the ice with Matthews there with that hit.

I think it was Nielander, because I saw him at Riley, and Riley, okay.

And I didn't, I don't know who else was out there.

But yeah, I mean, like,

Cowan and Carlo.

Okay, yeah, I mean, I, like, like, I played with Carlo.

Yeah, he's six foot five and I love him to death.

He's one of my, like, really good friends.

Like, I, I, I'm not saying it's Brandon Carlo that has to jump in there.

I'm saying every guy on the ice should have been jumping in there.

And the bench is a clear.

I mean, it would, yeah, like, that's a, that's a borderline.

Yes, bench clear.

But, but yeah, it's, it's, like, I always look at, like, just the, the teams that, like,

I go to Tampa, right?

You know, like, you've got a couple guys that, that'll fight really.

But when you look at Tampa, like, they always, they're just team tough, right?

Like, you go back to, I think it was Riley on Coutrable a few years ago.

Every guy, like, Brandon Point was the first guy in that scrub.

Brandon Point doesn't, I mean, maybe he fights once every three years at most, right?

Like, occasionally, but he was the first guy jumping on Morgan Riley.

And it was, like, it was a hard hit.

I didn't think it was dirty at the time, but Coutrable went into the board's hard.

And it was like every guy on the ice for Tampa jumped in.

And, and, and I don't even know if there was actually a fight.

There might have been one out of that entire thing.

But yes, like, like, yeah, we, you know, I thought Biaxas said it really well.

Like, if one of the sedines got hit, he said he would fight Andre the giant.

Yeah, it didn't matter, right?

Like, and, and, and let's be honest, Kevin Biaxas is tough as shit.

So, like, like, it was, you knew, and this is, maybe this is a little bit more,

you know, old school, but I still think there are some teams.

Like, when, when, when, when stuff like that happens, it's like,

you know, there's five guys on the ice that are jumping in and to a degree.

Like, what Buffalo's doing now?

Like, Tampa, you know, that Tampa Buffalo game.

I'm sure you guys have talked about it, but it was ridiculous, right?

I was at home watching it, just laughing because it was so insane.

But like, when, Hey, go, what he did to Dolly, in which I, I still don't, you know,

agree with the fact that it was a four minute, right?

You're just sitting there, just shaking your head.

Dolly didn't not tap him though.

That hasn't been talked about yet.

I get it.

Yeah, yeah, I get it.

Like, hey, he not tapped him.

But, um, but like, don't, I think jumped in, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and like that picture of Don with the gloves flying, like now all of a sudden,

Buffalo, I think is starting to, to, you know, get some of that team toughness.

And I think that's where Toronto, it's like, they're just, they've gone a little bit

wrong.

And I don't know if that's, it's definitely not Craig Barubi.

Um, you know, I, I, I just, there's, there's something lacking there in the sense of,

like, it's Austin Matthews.

He's your captain.

He's your, you know, arguably your best player and nobody even looked at you, right?

I know.

Like, I know the ref or whatever the lines went, weren't right over to Lewis.

But like, the other four guys on the ice should have been, like, kamikazeing in at that

point.

Yeah.

It's regardless of like how he looks and whatever.

I mean, I get like the guys on the ice aren't your, your, your four toughest, but still,

like, that to me, uh, it just, it, it felt like there was, there was, it was lacking by

a lot.

Well, we have a common shackled, just if I can, like, Randy, Randy, Reverend just said, this

points out that Matthews might not be, no, and I disagree with that.

I completely disagree with that.

It's a team thing.

I can do Matthews.

And, and you put Matthews on the Olympic team and see if he gets jumped on that.

They're all jumping.

He would happen.

No, no.

They're all jumping in.

They're all jumping in.

Yeah.

I mean, the chucks would be in the penalty box, breaking the glass down, climbing the glass

to get it.

Whoever gets it, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, if it's not a dish, but like Matthews, no, no, it's, I don't think it's a dislike,

but it's, I don't know, it, it is.

It's such a fine line and, and like, I always go back to, you know, watching, you know,

Colorado, just because I, I worked for them and do stuff for them, but like, like, there's,

it's almost like you have to learn that team toughness a little bit.

Like, you have to kind of go through the ringer.

You have to learn to win.

I, I firmly believe that, you know, sometimes you, you have to lose in order to, to kind of

learn to win.

And then you, I think as a, you know, as a team, sometimes you got to learn to be team

tough and, and, and maybe this is, you know, what propels that group forward and maybe,

you know, next year's a, a completely different animal, but you go back to Toronto, like they

bought, brought Ryan Reeves in, I don't know, four years ago, three years ago, as that

guy that was going to change the, you know, the culture you had to be there to step up

for guys.

And then they, they got rid of them and, and, and, you know, not to say, but like, it's

more team tough than just that one guy in my mind.

Yeah.

Great.

And I'm, I'm talking about the Islander down there, did it overnight.

Yeah.

But I'm a Craig Barubi fan and like, I just can't believe how much this team has quit

on Craig Barubi.

I said, after that moment, I feel like you, you're going to have to clear out the front

office.

You're going to have to clear out the coaching staff.

By the way, I've, I've had Craig Barubi's back and I, I, I like Craig Barubi, but there's,

the players have quit for whatever reason.

It's very evident that these players have completely packed it in on this iteration of

Leaves Management and Leaves coaching staff, which again, you know, how many of they

going to go through before it's like, we need to change knee lander.

We need to change the captain.

Who knows, right?

And so, don't forget, they fired, you know, marks of art in December.

Yeah.

He was the pro and Steve Sullivan.

Yeah.

Like, and their power play went nuclear after that.

And all of a sudden, it was like, oh, some art was the problem.

We got it.

No, we're good.

Yeah.

There's a funny, funny comment in our chat that said, I don't remember who I, it,

it's scrolled up here on me, but it said something like, if goodness wasn't suspended,

what could Chuck would have probably run him for doing that when they played against,

whether at which could Chuck?

I don't know which could.

Yeah.

Either I won.

Take your back.

Yeah.

Johnny, you're the best.

Thanks for coming on this morning.

Thank you so much.

You can obviously keep keep keep.

What's the name of your guys podcasts out in Colorado?

What's the actual name of the show?

Puck around and pod out is the podcast.

So we had John Reblesky, who is the head coach of the U.S. women's gold medal team.

I played with him at the program.

We had him on our most recent one.

It was awesome.

Like you could give him a question and he runs for five minutes with an answer.

Like he's so smart.

He's so in depth.

And then we actually, we're filming with the Nazum Kadri tomorrow.

Oh, awesome.

I'll be checking that out.

We'll definitely try to keep reminding people to check that out.

I say this all the time, no one has more fun than the avalanche broadcast crew.

No one has more fun.

Not even close.

Yeah.

It's not even close.

Love him or hate him.

A lot of other fan bases feel like you guys are too homer.

But at the end of the day, you're the avalanche broadcast.

We worked for the abs.

What are you guys doing?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But going as I worked for TNT or ABC, then yes, I'll be less homer, but I worked for the

abs.

Yes.

All right, but you're the best.

Thanks for coming on.

All right.

Appreciate you guys.