Conversation with Randy Woodley on Deconstruction

Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley, PhD is an activist/scholar, distinguished teacher and wisdom keeper who addresses a variety of issues concerning American culture, faith/spirituality, justice, race/diversity, regenerative farming, our relationship with the earth and Indigenous realities. His expertise has been sought in national venues such as Time Magazine, The Huffington Post and Christianity Today. Dr. Woodley currently serves as Distinguished Professor of Faith and Culture at Portland Seminary. He served for several years on the Oregon Dept. of Education, American Indian/Alaska Native Advisory Council. Randy was raised near Detroit, Michigan and is a Cherokee descendent recognized by the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians in Oklahoma. Randy co-hosts the Peacing it all Together  podcast with Bo Sanders.  Author of several books include "Decolonizing Evangelicalism" which we discuss in this episode. 

Connect and support the work that Randy is doing: 

www.randywoodley.com
www.eloheh.org 
www.elohehseeds.com

Randy lives south of Portland in Yam Hill, Oregon where he and his wife have a 10-acre farm where they house the Eloheh Center for Earth Justice. He said it is on the illegally and unethically seated land the Kalapuya People, particularly the Yamhill and Tualatin bands. The Woodleys have been in the area since 2008 and are just “enjoying climate change in Oregon” which is teaching them how to do regenerative farming under stressful conditions. “We’re learning all the time.”

Maggie asked Randy how he has seen the major cultural shift and what he thinks is happening and we’re seeing the response to Breonna Taylor’s murder, the many other lynchings [of men and women of color], and all that is going with people battling against Critical Race Theory. 

The book he wrote “Decolonizing Evangelicalism” with his podcast partner Bo Sanders and it came out during COVID so it hasn’t really been publicized or promoted. It’s written in like a conversation, and they’ve been taking theology and social issues ever since Bo was a seminary student of his back in 2008. They wrote the book this way both because that is how their relationship is (conversation) and in the style of one of his favorite books; “We Make the Road by Walking: Conversations on Education and Social Change” by Myles Horton and Paulo Freire. We talk about Critical Race Theory in the book; Randy says “I do it” and Bo explains it. Our book would now be banned from a number of seminaries and institutions around the country, it will not be allowed to use the book as a reference [because it uses Critical Race Theory to examine theology].

Randy says Critical Race Theory is the current “bugaboo” and it is endemic of all the other right wing, white supremacist reactions to People of Color coming into their own and the popularization of the unjust deaths of members of the BIPOC community. Social media has done a lot to inform people but in our [BIPOC] communities, people have been dying unjustly for hundreds of years. “There’s nothing different it’s just people are finding out about it now.” It’s important, Randy believes, that as we are learning [about the unjust deaths], that what we are finding is that all the systems and our country were founded in white supremacy. Randy acknowledges that there are other things behind that, including the Western worldview and patriarchy, but he says the white supremacy that founded the systems in our country—education, economic and social systems—are all bent towards the benefit and privilege of white males. “So the system itself has not really changed a lot; it looks a little more kinder than it used to under enslavement or genocide but the idea is still the same: People of color, and oftentimes women and others—the cultural or racial or gender other—are [seen as] a subcategory of humanity as opposed to white folks, especially white males of prominence.” Randy says Critical Race Theory gets at the heart of that; it says, there is a systemic problem that we have to deal with. “And a systemic problem means that all of us have to deal with it together. It’s not just up to white folks or People of Color, it’s like we all have to do this together in order change this system.” Randy believes that what the Right has done is taken away the ability for us to talk about that in a systemic way. 

“America by the way is, and we could go into the history of this as well, is one of the most individualistic nations that has probably ever existed in the history of humanity.”

Randy says everyone wants to talk about whether this one person is a racist or not. “I don’t even deal with that... I’m more interested in dismantling the systems that are corrupt with racism.” Randy believes that this Right reaction to everything that is going on is actually a way to stop us from talking about systemic racism. It’s very akin, Randy says, to the 1840 Gag Rules when they wouldn’t allow congress to talk about slavery. “It’s that: you’re not going to fix the problem if you can’t talk about it.” It keeps the homeostasis, security and benefits for those in power. 

Danielle finds herself in the system. She is a licensed Mental Health therapist in the state of Washington, and she believes it’s a system that is created for someone unlike her. When she is caring for a person of color and she expands her care to include the culture and community, because she is located in community, it is a threat to her profession. The psychological structure of the system…. is not created to deal with more than just the individual. She asks, “what do you do when the individual presents symptomology and harm that is happening from the system? How do I move in the world and not address the system and yet say I am caring for my client? And yet to address the system from my position its often say that you’ve stepped out the bounds of therapy.” She feels the bind and it’s excoriating to find paths forward and to know who is safe to talk to and engage. “Being present with my clients is also, I believe for me and my location, is fighting the system that is also harming them.”

Randy adds, “It’s not set up to deal with intergenerational trauma.” He says, some estimate that 100% of Native folks have intergenerational trauma or post-colonial stress syndrome. African American folks have intergenerational trauma from enslavement. “It’s not like these are one-time things; It is the residual from them keeps coming at us time after time after time.” Randy said it’s through people like Danielle, People of Color, who are getting into places of influence and be innovative and can begin to change the system. 

Maggie asks what does it look like to bridge the gap between working with individuals and working with systems? She mentions she thought one interesting and thought-provoking part of his book (Decolonizing Evangelicalism) was about the idea that we have to start with “re-verbaging” some of the terms that we think we are sharing a mutual definition or understanding about, when in fact are not. She was surprised at some of the words on his list. When we thinking about the word Evangelicalism, it encompasses a long history of shifting beliefs. She asks Randy to explore and explain what he means by deconstructing and reconstructing, which he has as almost two sides to the same coin. 

Randy says, “I’m not going to assume anyone’s age here. I wouldn’t do that out of fear. But I will tell you where I’m at: I’m a baby boomer. And my generation has a lot of culpability in some of the things that are going wrong right now. But one of the things that was different in my generations, I’m on one of the younger baby boomers, is that we said we don’t want our parent’s paradigm. That’s a bad paradigm … We were good at critiquing it but we just were very good at fixing it.” He believes one exciting thing we are seeing right now, and one of the other influences in this reaction and why we are seeing so much happen, is how the millennials are giving him a lot of hope. He said they are the first ones to come along and say, “We want a different paradigm! We don’t want what was handed to us by our parents and grandparents! We don’t want racism! We don’t want homophobia! We don’t want women to have 73 cents on the dollar and men to be paid a dollar for their wages. We don’t want a dirty nasty climate changing earth.” He believes that Millennials have the communication tools to actually communicate and critique, they are great at critiquing—maybe sometimes are too cynical but I guess if that’s what it takes to get there that’s okay—but question is; “Are they going be able to fix it?” He does see a lot of activism coming out of millennials and it excites him because he believes that is one of the reasons we are seeing the wide-spread reaction and it’s pulling those Gen Xers and Baby Boomers back in to have hope again. “Our future is depending on that. The government is not going to fix this unless we make the government fix it. And the generation that is the impetus behind this, the catalyst, is the Millennials. 

Maggie says it is easy to sit on one side and criticize but then not offer anything to replace it and grow it. It is the reconstructing after deconstructing then how helpful is that going to be. 

Randy says, “So basically we have to deconstruct everything. We have to look at every system that was created basically by—and I’m simplifying to its simplest terms—white males who sat at the table and said here’s the way it’s going to be for everybody. And now we need to basically over turn the table, build a new table together, and have everybody represented at that table and decide what these systems are going to be.” That reconstruction comes after the critique (deconstruction) and we see resistance to the critique in the like the resistance to critical race theory. Until we can really critique and understand it, listen to the those who have been oppressed etc., we can’t move forward. “It’s not something we can start from the same DNA and end up with a different child. That’s not going to happen. It has to start from a new DNA.” There’s no formula, and this is the scary part. Structures want formulas. They want to know what are the steps. Every step, every community, every law and every system has to become what Randy calls “organizing chaos.” He sees that chaos as a way of moving things that are out there, all the moving parts back together, and it will look different in different places with different people involved. One of the pitfalls, Randy says, is people’s demand to have a basis for reconstruction. That is the scariest part and the part you have to take by faith and say, “If we’re all moving together in the right direction, we’re going to end up with the right thing.” But, Randy says, it’s going to take everyone: insiders and outsiders, lots of diversity, so that we end up with something that is good for all of us, the common good. 

Danielle has been thinking from a psychological perspective about whiteness and what it takes to create the bent towards the “standard,” speaking very generally about the system that is bent towards white male privilege. She recalls a training/immersion program that she attended in the South on the subject of race. She heard a story of a lynching that was after church where entire families were in attendance. She saw a picture of a father with a hat on holding his young child, maybe 2 years old, and then with his other hand attached to another small child on the ground. Knowing from the way we are created, the way that the Creator created us, that those children would know that they were witnessing horror. And in the moment of witnessing horror, to have a caregiver who is celebrating there would be a deep sense of fragmentation and create a legacy that would be enforced in the schools with teaching around race and segregation. Or to have the horror reenforced at church. That fragmentation is then passed down.

With this fragmentation in mind, Danielle wonders about deconstruction. When everything is already so fragmented, what has actually been constructed? Danielle feels like she witnesses lights come on and she sees the fragmentation and asks “how do we welcome those fragments back home? How do we rebuild something that’s so fragmented?” She says it’s the ability to hold things in the air while not knowing how they will land and to wait and see how they will land. It’s that faith component that Randy is talking about. 

Randy says as a nation we have myths about our identity, who we are. Those myths need to be taken apart and deconstructed. He says truth must be interjected into them. Sometimes these myths are partially true, and sometimes they aren’t true at all. But they all fit into our national mythos. When we allow those things to be taught and spread, it does something to our souls. “If you are not in the myth as the winning character, it grinds on your soul.” He believes it will also grind on the winners because it dehumanizes them: It creates in them the sense that others are less than human, and that dehumanizes the person who sees others that way as well. We all need to be freed from those myths. 

In the midst of all this, Randy says he holds on to his faith. “I believe there is a Creator who is ultimately wanting the best for everyone. And while we may disagree about all the theologies and who that is and everything else, I’m still looking at the Creator in faith to say, ‘There is a force beyond humanity that is rooting, if nothing else, for use to treat each as equals and kindly.’” This he says is helpful to him personally.

Maggie says what he is saying harkens back to an idea from his book about hospitality. She was struck by a part in the book where he says hate isn’t the opposite of love; the opposite of love is more like indifference or apathy or disconnection. The Creator that he just talked about wants us to belong to each other, to have a sense of togetherness, and Maggie asked Randy to talk more about the idea of hospitality and what that looks like.

Randy says the Northwest is an interesting place to think about hospitality. He’s heard of “Seattle nice” or “Portland nice.” The saying goes, “People will give you directions to anywhere except for their own home.” Randy believes that it is in our own homes where we reveal ourselves to others and allow them the comfort to reveal themselves to us. Homes are the places where we can build those kinds of relationships that are necessary for us to treat each other as humans. Hospitality, he talks about the Indigenous “Harmony Way,” in the Biblical way it would be called “Shalom.” It is the ethos among Indigenous people all over the world is this sense of hospitality. Randy says there are many cultures in the world [geographically and historically] where you have to feed your enemy: You have to give them a day’s ration and help them on their way. This is the case with Native America as well. The strangers were taken in and feed, given a night’s sleep and sent on their way so they could live another day. Randy thinks it is a really bad sign when we start to see hospitality disappearing out of a culture. He says we really need to get back in each other’s homes again. We all live inside each other’s home. 

Randy mentions one of the crazy theologies that came out of the passage where Jesus said [in Matthew 19:29], Anyone who leaves their father and mother for my sake, will inherit 100-fold mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers and houses and homes. The faith people in the 80s turned that into a “name it and claim it.” But he says all that is talking about is hospitality: we become family when we come into each other’s homes. “The whole New Testament is based on that Shalom principle of hospitality and being there for another and loving one another.” Randy mentions 1 Peter 4:8-9 as one of the best places that talks about this: It says above all love because love covers a multitude of sins. But it’s the next line after this shotgun blast of love is: and don’t neglect to be hospitable to one another. And when you invite people in your home, don’t complain. Everyone has gifts they were given from Creator, share them with one another. He says we see this over and over again in various passage throughout the New Testament. Certainly, he says, followers of Jesus should be practicing this kind of hospitality, but really this is what all human beings should be doing as well. 

Danielle says her husband is Mexican and if you show up, you’re going to get food. They are going to cook if you show up; you will not leave without food. If you say no, that’s not going to be good for you. 

Randy says there’s no such thing as Indians gathering without food. That’s s unheard of. He says, “I know the same is true for many cultures. And we always laugh when we go to a White people’s event because there will be some sort of small hors d’oeuvre or a bunch of desserts.” He laughs and says “You know, people actually get along better when you eat with each other, and actually eat good food. That’s known all over the world except for some cultures in America that’s not the case.” He expands to say that is not true of all ethnic cultures that are white cultures—he has some Italian friends where that is not true. Food and hospitality, Randy believes, are a part of loving one another and building relationships. 

Danielle says there is so much hope in the idea of coming together around a meal. Her family has lived in a lot of tension around identity and she says, “so being familiar with the tension, from ethnicities that hold a lot of tension, we have a lot to offer in leading forward because we have lived a long time in that chaos.” 

Randy said there was a meme going around Native America a year or two ago that said, if we have intergenerational trauma, and we do, then we also hold within our DNA intergenerational hope and survival. We’ve survived and there are reasons we have survived. Randy believes that any persecuted or oppressed minority that has survived has things to teach everyone else and some of those are about hospitality.

Maggie adds there is a vulnerability to having someone in your home, or being in someone else’s home. She recalls in Randy’s book that he mentions that hospitality is not about just having the same people in your homes, the people you like to have meals with. There’s an additional piece—are we going to take in the strangers and feed them so they can live another day? And are we going to have conversations with people that are different than us, that think differently and look differently? Hospitality then is engaging people that are different than us and are we willing to do it in our homes?

Randy says because we are all colonized to one degree or another, there are plenty of people who look differently than us but think exactly like us. And that’s always the challenge and Randy names higher education as one of the major culprits of hiring brown people who think white because it looks like diversity. “That’s not people who think differently than us. Again, if you start with the same DNA you end up with the same kids.”

Danielle says we need to keep having the conversations, keep doing the work, and keep having people in our homes. She says it has to be practical in her own life, it has to be an embodied place that we can pass down. It can’t be paper activism or screen activism. 

Besides all the death and sickness, Randy says the worse part about COVID is that we can’t really be in each other’s homes the way we want to be. For all his married life, and he’s been married for 31 years, he and his wife Edith have had an open home. He said it was always unusual if a month goes by and they’ve not had people in their home eating with them. When people ask him what they do at Eloheh, he replies we just provide hospitality to people. It’s been difficult during COVID but for the first time they gathered people, with masks and distancing, and he and his wife remarked at how nice it was to have people there to visit. He says he can’t wait until COVID is over and there can be a return to some form of normality, though he acknowledges it seems like it won’t ever go back to the way things always have been. 

Maggie adds that while we have the desire to do these things—have people over again—but we need to reimagine what they look like under our current circumstance. And right now that looks like gathering outside or with masks on. We must still be activity seeking to be people, places and homes that are open and hospitable in this season. 

Randy says, I miss that. Danielle does too; “I felt that acutely.”

Randy says it was horrible that in the beginning they went months without seeing their own grandkids. 

Danielle adds, yes that is horrible. There’s a sense of not know whether your body or their bodies are a source of danger. And knowing that you need one another. 

As we wrap up, Danielle asked about Randy’s new books and how can people get in touch with him:

To find out more about what Randy and his wife Edith are doing at the Eloheh Indigenous Center for Earth Justice you can visit: www.eloheh.org 

If you would like to order seeds from them, all organic, open pollinated seeds, you can visit:
www.elohehseeds.com

If you want to book Randy to speak at your event you can go to: www.randywoodley.com

Or connect via email: [email protected] 

If you haven’t read his most recent book that came out: Decolonizing Evangelicalism

New books coming out:

January 4th, 2022: Becoming Rooted: One Hundred Days of Reconnecting with Sacred Earth
April 19th, 2022: Indigenous Theology and the Western Worldview: A Decolonized Approach to Christian Doctrine

No date: Mission and the Cultural Other: A Closer View

“Peaching It All Together” Podcast with Randy Woodley and Bo Sanders

Randy is reading: "Jesus and Non-Violence" by Walter Wink, "Open and Relational Theology" by Thomas Jay Oord, "Prejudential: Black America and the Presidents" by Margaret Kimberley, "Mycelium Running: How mushrooms can save the world" by Paul Stamets

Randy is listening to: All My Relations Podcast hosted by Matika Wilbur (Swinomish and Tulalip) and Adrienne Keene (Cherokee Nation), "Medicine for the Resistance" Podcast hosted by an Anishnaabe kwe and an Afro mystic

Randy is inspired by: Millennials who are giving him hope and his Elders who are passing down shared wisdom. 

Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.