Creating What Needs to Exist, with Invisible Zinc and WelleCo's Andrea Horwood

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Thanks for pressing play on this episode of The Pay Off. My name is Sylvia Jeffries.

Now at the age of 19, I remember I was pulling beers at a pub in Bruise,

I was sometimes rolling the AutoCue at Channel 9 in Queensland,

and I was definitely drinking too many vodka cranberries. There's no doubt about that.

But my next guest on The Pay Off was she was doing things pretty differently

at the age of 19. She looked at the magazine landscape in this country and said,

you know what? I can do better. And she did. She launched Australian Style magazine,

with Kylie Minogue, gracing that very first now iconic glossy cover.

At such a young age, that is some serious ambition and self-belief.

I'm talking about Andrea Horwood, who joins me in the studio today.

Following that legendary magazine launch, she's gone on to build incredible brands.

You would know them. Things like Invisible Zinc, which became a staple in every Australian beach bag.

And the globally successful Wellness brand, Wellcoat. She's a true entrepreneur with a great

business brain. And today we're chatting through all the highs and lows of her career,

things like sitting across the negotiating table with Lockland Murdoch.

The legal action she launched following her business split from Elmick Furson.

And some of the incredible stories behind working in the world of e-commerce

and starting brands from the ground up. There's also some advice in there for our listeners

on carving your own path. So without further ado, here is Andrea Horwood.

Andrea, welcome to The Pay Off. It's great to have you here. It's great to be here.

You have such a rich business story to tell and such an interesting life,

already lived so far. And I want to begin, though, with your very first job.

What was that? What was your first job? Oh, I have, I've always been self-employed.

I think I've had a job once in my life where I work for someone else. But my very first job was

as some Santa's little helper in a Styrofoam snow-covered elf hut in a shopping center

with my friend. And I'd like to say we were just teenagers doing that. But I actually think we're

about 18 doing it. That's great. And what did you learn about, you know, customers and the

business, the workplace? Very stressed mothers wanting you to wrap all their presents

for you, for them. But I think I learned to send the terrariums down to the next hut

because they're very difficult to wrap. Perfect. That's great. See, these are lessons that,

as a mother now, you can employ in your day-to-day life once a year. So it wasn't long before you

then launched your own business in Australian style, a magazine. You were how old when you did that?

I started the magazine in my late teens in Perth. And then by the time it came to Sydney,

you know, it was a very different beast by then. But I like to think we sort of practiced in WA

and then brought it nationally. There aren't many 19-year-olds who are launching their own media

companies. I look back and I think where did I find the courage to do some of these things? And

I think it's a consequence of age and distance as well. In Perth, you're very isolated and you

have to make your own fun and your own career. But it's, for me, it was more about starting something

that was reflective of the lives that we were leading. We're in our 20s or into music and film

and arts and we wanted a magazine that reflected that. So I had friends who were writers and

photographers. And the thing I loved about that whole learning, that really intense learning

experience that the magazine was is that we produced all of our own content. So every photograph,

every word. And that was the fun of it. Completely original. We were in, there was a media

duopoly in Australia at the time and we were an independent voice and we loved that and we're all

young. And so we did whatever we wanted. There was no one to tell us what to do. So when you say

we were these your friends, were you gathering around? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was, no, I mean,

I had the writers and our photographers. A lot of a lot of people in media in Australia today

actually had their start with the magazine in some way or another. We, I like to think that

we were very important in starting as almost like a cadet ship into this creative world.

So I had friends who were fashion designers and we used to photograph their pieces with the

magazine and, you know, photographers and writers and we ended up having walkly award-winning

writers and photographers who ended up going all over the world and doing incredible things. So

I really loved the fact that so many positive things came out of that time and that little

publication in Australia. You provided a great spring award for a lot of people. What was your

first cover? Who was your first cover story? It was Kylie Minogue. So you started right at the top.

It was Kylie photographed by Tony not a baradino for our very first Australian style cover.

It was a great cover too. And I saw a cover of people at her. Yes, we did. Again, that came

through a friend in Perth who said, oh, my friend's son is, you know, as an actor and he's really

good and you should do your story for him in the magazine and by that point, you know, everyone's

got a suggestion. Yeah, but you're pretty happy with that. Yes, sure. Okay. And then I realized

who it was. Do you remember? Did you get to meet him? No, I didn't. I didn't do. I wasn't there

for that one that I can't remember who did the photographs. Maybe I think we could have been

Robyn Select. Did the photographs of him, but it was right at the very beginning of his career

and he was making films in Australia before he went to the US. So at its height, what kind of

reach did Australian style have? As an independent and those times, it was really exciting to get

the kind of cut through that we did get. And I think because there wasn't a lot of youth culture

magazines. And so we were out selling Australian Vogue and, you know, we were very cheeky as well.

We used to go and plaster our posters every time we were coming out, our cover posters on the,

you know, on the doors of 54 park streets. You'd have to cut it to get in and like, we were very

cheeky. And then I ended up being in business with them with Locked and Murdoch. So you ended up

selling what, 50% of the company to the Murdoch, is that right? To Locklin. It was independent.

It was independent of news limited. And so what did you learn sitting across the table

from Locklin Murdoch in a negotiation? We've all seen succession. So we all have ideas of,

you know, what it's like to negotiate with a Murdoch, but in real life, what's it like negotiating

with him? Well, it was actually very easy. Locklin approached me. He'd just come to Sydney Finnish

University in the US and I think his father wanted him to spend some time under Ken Cowley

learning the ropes, the legendary Ken Cowley. And I think the way it happened was I did an Australian

story and it was the same episode where they interviewed Ken Cowley and Locklin was on that. So he

watched that episode. And then I received a phone call the next week saying, I think the magazine

is the coolest thing happening in Australia. And can I talk to you? And I actually thought it was

my friend Mark impersonating. I wasn't nervous. I was like, yes, sure. So no, I was, it was not

something that I expected would happen. But I just went around and to his house and we spoke about

publishing. We spoke about the independent nature of the magazine and what we were trying to do.

And that those media, that duopoly that existed then didn't really cater for youth culture.

There was nothing cool. And so, you know, we had that ground to ourselves. You were right.

Yeah. How did his involvement change the nature of the magazine or the style of the magazine,

if at all? It didn't really change the nature and the style of the magazine too much.

And Locklin was really very fair with that. He said, you're independent. You're going to stay

independent. And even, you know, when we get in trouble with news limited, if I think there was

a skirmish on the end of Willemalupe here over, I think we photographed the wiggles for the first

time, not in their costumes. Oh, no skibbies. No. So apparently this was a huge scoop that our

photographer and editor at the time thought it was important enough to get into a scuffle with

with the photographer, the other photographers who took the picture. So I got hauled up and sort

of like what happened and said, well, they were our pictures. And that was our story. So we

prevent... I'm sure Locklin would appreciate the, you know, the news value in that.

It's funny the things you fight over. Yeah, exactly. No, he was great. He encouraged us to

maintain an independent voice and we did. Well, that was pretty astute investing from him, I'm sure.

So beyond that, you get into obviously beauty and fashion has been a big part of your life,

but in terms of beauty, there was invisible zinc. Yes. Now this is a product that I, when I saw

this in your resume, I thought, oh my gosh, I have so many questions about this because I've

been using this product for probably 15 years. And still now as a runner, I'm out in the sun

every day and I lather it on. And I mean, that is an enduring beauty product. It's a necessary

product in Australia. It's a safety product. And it was just after Locklin, I sold the magazine

to Kerry Stokes and I moved back to Perth. And I think because of my experience in media,

the research scientists at the particle engineering department of University of Western Australia

thought that I could help them publicize or take to market an innovation that they developed.

And that was to reduce the particle size of zinc oxide down till it was invisible to the naked eye.

This was a very compelling safety issue when they explained it to me. They talked to me about

why they'd spent this time developing it. And the way they explained it in layman's terms, if you've

got a pool table and you've got basketballs on it versus marbles, the little gaps in between

are much smaller. So it gives you a physical reflective barrier to the sun and it's zinc oxide.

That was the only active. And so we pioneered bringing that technology to market. There was a lot

of interest from cosmetic companies, globally, sunscreen companies. But this ingredient was about

four times more expensive than the cheap chemical absorbers. So why would industry change if there

wasn't a consumer-led demand? So that's where probably my background in media came in because we

ran an information and educational campaign. And I did learn this thing or two at News Limited

because we would pick up, you know, distress newspaper ads on a Thursday because we were tiny.

We didn't have the same budgets as everyone else. So we ran a distress like a guerrilla marketing

campaign every summer. And we got in early, we would do it month before the big multi-nationals

would start advertising. So we just slowly built this following in Australia. And when we talked

about those safety issues and when we talked about the problems of those chemical UV absorbers,

it was just a natural choice for consumers. And we were told that, you know, it's so expensive.

No one's going to spend $30 on a sunscreen. So we had to pioneer a new category and a new

price point as well as working with TGL laboratories in Australia to formulate it for the first time

because it behaved differently. And so there was a lot of development work that went into that.

And the research arm that came out of UWA ended up licensing that technology and that patent to

Dow in Korea and it's now used in everything. So it was really, I'm very proud that we were part

of bringing that to market and that we helped explain it. And we created the invisible zinc brand

to show that ingredient and what that particle size could be used for. I clearly remember the

pictures of Megan Gayle and Elmick Ferson on those early products, the early versions of the

products. How important was celebrity endorsement to the brand in the early days? It was very

important. I think when you're an independent company and you're up against multi-nationals,

you have to find a way to get your voice out there. Every creative way you can think of,

but you have to find a way to get your voice out there. And when I launched Invisible's Inkin London,

we launched it at Self-Ridges. And it was brilliant. We had the Hillary site right as you come off

Oxford Street. And I launched that with Georgia Jagger and Jerry Hall together. And that was so

much fun. Just they're bound to it together. But that was perfect because the whole message behind

it was, you know, Jerry asking her younger self what advice she would give. And it's wear sunscreen.

Yeah. So, you know, we took an Australian innovation and we took it, you know, sort of around the

world. And that was, you know, it's a very exciting time. But we had to build a market here and we had

to build a completely new understanding of sunscreens and that this is a premium beauty product and

not just a big tub of, you know, ten dollar chemicals that you're going to cover your skin in. So

that took, you know, we had to guide a consumer shift in that way. You eventually sold that off.

Yes. We've had Mark Bruce on this podcast once who was saying when, you know, when you're starting

a business, you've got to have in mind who you're eventually going to sell it to. Yeah. Is that

something that you adhere to? Is that an approach you adhere to in business? I would say I'm not

that pre-planned about it. No, I think I knew that as soon as we got into groceries. So, you know,

again, we broke down the traditional distribution channels. We were in every pharmacy in Australia.

I think we were in around 8,000 pharmacies. David Jones, Maya. So we had department store pharmacy

and then grocery. And that was, you normally have to pick a channel. Now it's different. I see

you can see lots of brands that do that. But the moment we got into Coles and Woolworths, that was

when the multinational start looking at you because you've taken shelf space. And there are three

brands that own all of that shelf space. And they came knocking on the door and that was pretty much

you're so small, we're going to copy you or we're going to buy you. So I think when you're playing

in the grocery channel and it's mass, then the dynamics are very different for an independent.

How has the power of its celebrity endorsement shifted in recent years? In this age of social

media and influences and micro influences and the rest of it. Do the really famous faces still

have the same effect? I think now we're living in an attention economy and the people who have

attention, you know, are leveraging that. But I also see a lot of really great marketing of really

ordinary products. There are petrochemicals in is still in beauty products, very dangerous

chemicals that we should be trying to avoid in personal care and in beauty, crude oil, still the

base of a lot of lip balms and things. And these are problematic. And we're seeing that there are

health consequences of this bombardment of chemicals. So I'm very interested in trying to improve certain

categories that have still got really big problems like that. That's a really interesting point that

you make around the good marketing because everything's got a beautiful shiny packaging these days,

right? But we've just seen here in Australia, as you would be aware, the TGA and choice highlighting

a number of sunscreens on the market that don't offer the kind of sun protection that they claim to.

How damaging has that been to those brands, do you think? Well, it's incredibly damaging,

but it's also, it damages trust in the public with the public because we've been taught about the

importance of protecting our skin in the sun in Australia. It is a health issue, but there is also

there's a health issue around some of the products as well. And when consumers were rightly

very angry about that. And I think that the laboratories in their testing, there was one lab at the

core of all of that. But I think what it has done as exposed to the consumers, just how many brands

are just marketing because they're all buying from the same place. And for me, the really inspiring

part of brands and fast-moving consumer goods is when you've got great marketing and a great product.

It's almost like use your powers for good because you do see some beautiful marketing, but the

products are problematic. So then along came the wellness boom. And you dive straight into it. You

could see obviously opportunity there. When you started Welco, what did that landscape look like?

What was happening in the wellness industry? It was very different. It was the back when I started

Welco. It was very much the wall of vitamin tablets in pharmacy. That was pretty much it.

So I like to think I pioneered taking wellness to the beauty floor. I launched it at

Selfridges in London. And then I think it was the next day on Netaporter and then two days after

that, David Jones. And then we opened our own site. So there were two things that were very different

to that. One was we were taking beauty onto the ingestible beauty and pioneering that and taking

a product, an ingestible product to the beauty floor. We were the Selfridges buyers certainly

hadn't seen anything like that before. And that was back in the days where you had buyers who

were visionaries. And if they loved an idea, they would work with you and they'd help you build

a concept and idea. So that allowed, especially Selfridges, they're very innovative. They're one of

the best retailers on the planet. They just know how to bring newness and how to be part of big

movements and help to make them happen. So we're very lucky to be part of that. So you established

this company with Elmick Ferson. What was the pitch? What was the original pitch for Welco?

The original pitch was due to farming practices and soil depletion that we're not getting all

the vitamins and trace minerals that we might need and the need to supplement. And rather than

supplement with synthetic tablets, supplement from whole food sources. So that was the premise behind

it. I started the business and then I knew that I needed a spokesperson. I've always,

I've never put myself in front of my brands. I'm much more comfortable being in the background.

And so I prefer the brand to be famous rather than the person. I think the people are using

the product because the product's good. And I want the products to be household names, not me.

I've always retreated behind celebrity faces for the brands that I create. And it's really because

I'm not good at that. And people who are very good at, and it is a skill, it's a skill to be able

to communicate to the public in that way. And I think that for celebrities who are very

practiced at that, then it can be super effective. Yeah. I was reading that you were 80%

director market. Yes. About right. Yeah. So how quickly did you have to get up to speed on e-commerce?

Again, we were pioneering that category quite on our own as well at the time. So I went from

invisible zinc was very much a brick and mortar business. So we were in pharmacies and in stores.

And by the time that we were looking at, I was looking at how I wanted to launch Welco,

and I had to really counsel my board on that we were just going to be director, director customers.

So we used the big store events and the openings and things to raise awareness as a new brand.

But the aim was always to have that 80, 20 split of 80% through our own website, not just through

online sellers as well. And we built the business with a small team out of Perth,

just a remarkable group of people in a room. And we ended up opening stores in New York and

we launched it all over the world. And it was a fantastic ride. And it really felt we had a great

a beautiful producer who made a highly elevated, beautiful product that we used to make in

Queensland. So we love taking that to the world. Is director consumers your favourite way to sell

a product? Well, having gone from brick and mortar into the DTC and now everything's changed again.

So having started Eto, again we've got a real challenge on our hands trying to remove some of

the chemicals from personal care. That's our aim with Eto. But we are about a 50, 50 split with Eto

where DTC and brick and mortar. Your departure from Welco obviously generated a few headlines

years ago. There was a lawsuit. It was resolved. I'm sure you can't speak to it. I'm not going to

push you too. I'm sure there are lots of legalities around that. But I'm interested to know

some things I'd like to say. I'm sure there are. Maybe one day we'll get them out of you.

But in the meantime, I wonder at least how that experience in leaving a company that you built

from the ground up, how that experience perhaps shifted your perspective in business or taught you

some lessons in business? Oh, it did both. I think everything you do in business is an opportunity

to learn. I think that if you keep your eyes open and you listen and you, I found myself in

rooms with very interesting people and with some of the world's most interesting people. In fact,

that's why I love where business has taken me. But there's also cautionary tales and there are

lessons that you learn. I had probably three lessons happen at the same time. And I think for

women in business, it's a little bit different because we're also managing family and home and

kids as well. And so when a number of those things all happen at once, that can be a real challenge.

Are you still glad that you started Welco? Are you glad that you went down that path?

I'm very proud of what we did with Welco and what our team achieved. I've still got a lot of

my team together that are working, but I've worked together with for over 10 years and we're still

working together on Eto. So I've met great people through that process and I really think we

pioneered a whole new category. And when you look at the wellness category now, you can see how

big it is, but we really did pioneer that. So I had to counsel my investors and my board,

and this is the type of business that I want to do, and this is the way that we're going to take

it to market. And it was all very new. So I'm lucky that I've had in the past supportive boards

and shareholders to allow me to sort of explore different paths in these consumer brands.

So if you were to say something about that time in your life, what would it be?

I think that when you create something, the way that I do with these businesses,

they're all consuming. You have to be so passionate about it. So you live and breathe it,

and you just want to make it work, and there's nothing that's going to stop you making it work

because you're so determined. And if you really believe in it like that, then

when then you care very much about the outcomes, and so that can be, you know, it can be quite

devastating as well if you care that much. And I also say don't start a business unless you care

that much as well. Well, you now care very much about two new businesses, which we're here to talk

about, and Edo and Kirk. So we're going to take a quick break, and we'll come back and unpack

all of that right after this. Well, you've mentioned Edo a couple of times. I know this is your

new beauty passion. First aid beauty, yeah. So how did this all come about? What was the seed?

Again, this innovation that comes out of Western Australia. So Edo started as a feasibility study.

We were asked by the growers and the producers in Australia to, you know, to look at the potential,

particularly around these two plant extracts that they were working with. So one's turpin and

four-all and one's cine-all. Now they may not mean much to people, but the turpin and four-all,

it's one of the most powerful, sorry, it's one of the most powerful antivirals,

antifungals, antibacterials. And so the first thing that we did with the feasibility study is start

to look at the research. And like Curtin University did a viral research piece and the

turpin and four-all killed a virus a day. And then we met with, there was a research group that was

funded by the federal government, part, federal government and parts industry, looking at the

potential of, you know, these very powerful antivirals and antibacterials. And so we could see the

potential and we could see that if formulated and used the, you know, to their research benefits,

that this could provide the opportunity to remove about 40 or 50 chemicals from our everyday life

because you don't need chemicals to treat some of the problems that we use chemicals to treat.

So at the end of the feasibility study, we recommended that there was no, there was no application

we could see that really spoke to the research strengths of these plant turpins. And the other

thing about these plant turpins is that they grow here, they have these incredible benefits that we

just starting to understand. But they also help with a lot of the problems that we have from living

here, whether it's the harsh sound or whether it's the insect bites, wind burn, sunburn, all of these

things, there is something that grew here all along that could help us. What are these plants? What

do they look like? So the, the, the turpen and foreall is extracted from a variety of the Australian

tea tree and we farm that here in New South Wales. And the cineole comes from, we grow a really high

grade of blue male eucalyptus on the west coast in Perth, just north of Perth. And the cineole count

from that eucalyptus is so high and it's used as a decongestant and an inhalant. And it became

really compelling for us. Not only could we bring a brand to market where we owned our supply chain

and we know where the, where the important actives come from, but there also steam extracted

on our farms. There's no third party, no one touches it. And part of the problem that we saw in

the feasibility study was in adulteration and also the importation of inferior products. So I think

Australians would be quite surprised to learn that over 95% though they estimate of eucalyptus

currently used in Australia is imported. Really? Yes. From where? From China mainly. Oh wow.

But it's an unclean, it can be an unclean byproduct of the paper industry. So it's a very fast

growing paper bark called globulus. And if you look on your labels, you'll probably see that.

It has a very low cineole count, but also they, they de-nature it as part of the,

it's processed using solvents and it can be extracted, it's extracted in an unclean way. But then

they have to, they de-nature it and then they have to try and build the cineole back in. So

you're messing with a natural compound where, you know, we can see the benefit of bringing,

if these plants have those qualities, then try and bring them through to the finished product

in their whole form. Don't mess with them. It's the way they're extracted, the way they're

formulated and the way they're used becomes really important. So how would you use those products

in your everyday life? I've got, things like we've got, it's a natural antibacterial spray,

it's a beautiful skin spray. So I take that with me wherever I go, it's just a 50-50 cut of the

Blue Meliocalyptus and the Turpin and Forell from the tea tree. And I literally spray

my hands and I breathe it in when I get off a plane. A lot of viruses enter through your nasal

passages. Again, it's the antifiral and antibacterial benefits. So we've got, you know, beautiful

body washers that you can use. There's an all over cleansing foam from everything from a flaky

scalp to irritated and compromised skin barrier. So a lot of the time you reach for a product

that, you know, could be a body wash from the pharmacy that's endorsed by dermatologists.

And then you might find it's got these three ingredients in it that are going to actually make

the problem worse over time. So ideally, if we can, if we can try and remove some of those

chemicals from our everyday lives, that's what we're trying to do. And personal care is one of

the categories that still has this problem. And it's at every price point, you can't buy your way

out of it. There are products in, in grocery that sits, you know, at a sub $10 price that have

these chemicals in them. And you can go right up to premium beauty retail and spend over $100

for a very similar product. And it's got the same chemicals in it. So in a lot of formulated

products, there's an ingredient called benzol peroxide. Benzol peroxide, when it's heated over 30

degrees, becomes quite a toxic ingredient. And in Australia, most of our beauty products and

personal care products are transported by road. We don't use refrigerated shipping in Australia

for beauty. So there is a good chance that somewhere along the delivery supply line, it's going to

hit over 30 degrees. And so this becomes a very dangerous chemical. And we saw products being taken

off the shelves here earlier this year from tanning products, sunless tanning products through

to deodorants. And it went right through many categories. And we still see that in, we still see

that ingredient in many, many formulations. So that's just one example. And part of the testing that

the research group did at UWA was look at benzol peroxide to treat. It kills the bacteria that

causes acne. That's why it's in a lot of products. They tested against the turpin and foreall.

And the turpin and foreall did exactly the same job. So if you can use a natural compound and it's

one, the beauty of these plant turpins as well is that we can use them every day without becoming

accustomed to them. So they remain effective. And so if we can use natural compounds to solve these

problems, then why wouldn't you? Which brings me to the other brand that you're pouring your energy

into at the moment. And I do acknowledge that you obviously use a lot of research and studies

to underpin the brands that you work with and to really hold them up. This being Kirk. So Kirk

is based on Kirkman, which is what the key ingredient in turmeric? Yes, that's right. So what is the

research that's been done around this product and how it works to help with inflammation in particular?

Yeah. Well, the first time I saw Kirk, I contacted the founder, Trent, and I said,

is this nano Kirkman? Because I've been looking for that for years. I knew, or I've read all about

the benefits of Kirkman and what it can do, but there's an absorbability problem. It's a crystal

that's very hard to absorb. So I've been taking Kirkman supplements for years and to little effect.

And I tried all of them. And then so they're, they're my cellar emulsion is very new and very

different. So everyone's been trying to find a way to make this very researched, incredible

substance that can help with inflammation. And inflammation is a very wide category. It goes across

from minor issues right through to autoimmune. And so if you can offer something that a way to have

this natural substance where you can absorb it and you can use it, it was very interesting to me.

So obviously they have all their research and they have the development and it's, there's a

wonderful story about how it came to be. But I, everything for me starts with the product. So

I had five people around me and I said to Trent, I'm going to put all of them on it and I want

them to tell me if it actually, how it made them feel. And so that was ranging from a 20-year-old

with an autoimmune condition, an 80-year-old golfer who couldn't play golf anymore because of the

information in her needs. An ex-Army veteran in his early 40s who had a lot of stress and damage

to his body from his deployments and all of their group as well. So we had all of these people

with very different and a 50-year-old with arthritis, arthritic fingers. Everyone went on it

and then I started to hear the feedback. And then so the 80-year-old golfer, everyone in her

golf club now takes it and she's back playing golf again. So these were the kind of stories

that can't move from pain to then being able to go out and play golf again.

I find it... But it's important to note, we're not claiming obviously that it's curing certain

conditions, but it's aiding, you say, with some of the symptoms of inflammation.

Yeah, so the company has its research and Kirkhamin just happens to be a very well-researched

supplement as well. It's the absorbability issue that they've solved. But to me, it's also

important that that first-hand anecdotal story, like, is it going to make any difference if I take it

and all the people around me take it? And so the feedback was just overwhelming and every single one

of them is on Kirk's to this day. Tom Hardy is an investor, is that right? Yes, that's right. How did

that come to be? That's something you'd have to ask Trent about. I thought about them doing

jiu-jitsu together or something. I think that's the connection, yes. But there's also a lot of athletes

and I believe a lot of Brazilian jiu-jitsu masters who take pain relief regularly to be able

to go to the gym because of inflammation. And so again, if you can not take ibuprofen because

you're not in pain, then that's going to be a better result for you as well, because you can't

keep taking pain killers all the time. And yet it can be debilitating if you've got

inflammation and pain from inflammation. You've had so much success in picking the right

brands or establishing the right brands that have had a lot of longevity in an industry

where you see brands come and go and come and go. What do you look for? What's your checklist when

you're assessing a brand and whether or not you want to be a part of it? I think it's really

important if you're going to bring a consumer product to market that there's a responsibility.

I think we're in the age of saturated consumerism. We don't need any more products.

So it has to solve a problem that isn't being solved. It has to be good for people.

And then the way you make it and what it actually is, so your supply chain and where it comes from

and how it's produced. And there has to be an ethical 360 ring around these products and these

businesses because the world just doesn't need more consumer products for the sake of more consumer

products. Have you had any misses? No, actually. But every success story, you have all of these

misses along the way. It's a difficult road to be an independent in an industry that is dominated

by multinationals. I mean, five businesses own nearly all the brands in the world in our

category. So to be an independent, you really have to prove these ideas. You have to have proof of

concept. So I think the early stages where you're trying to prove to the market, but also to see

if there is a consumer demand for these things. So it can start as instinct, but then it needs that

proof, that proof of concept. And for me, that is the uptake from the public. If we're providing a

better option and we're doing and we're making beautiful products that hopefully you're going to

be part of people's everyday lives, then you really have to, that's the test, that's where a

brand should live or die. There's obviously a big trend at the moment in young girls, in teenage

girls, 12-year-old girls, 10-year-old girls, using skincare that they don't need and that

potentially could be harmful for them. And look, you can point your finger at a lot of different

things, you can look at the cut ashians and get ready with me, Tren, you can look at everything

on social media that we see day in day out. What do you make of that trend in the beauty industry?

And the way I think it's safe to say a lot of brands are praying on vulnerable young girls.

Yeah, again, that comes down to the criteria that I would need to start a brand or to bring a

product to market and there's a moral part of that as well. And personally, I don't like, I wouldn't

do that and I don't like turning children into consumers and I think that we're able to do that

through their phones and I really, I think it's abhorrent and I think it's irresponsible for

companies to do that. And you're right, they don't need products at that age, they don't need

beauty products, they only mask, they should have on as like a paper crocodile one or something,

they're going to a party. But it's, it is purely a result of this age of saturated consumerism

and the consumers are where the data is. And so that's how we ended up there. But I think that

brands should exercise more of a moral compass when it comes to marketing to children.

Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with you on that and I have two young sons, no daughters.

But I do worry for a lot of young girls coming up in this age. I mean, I didn't wear makeup.

I remember working in a pub when I was 21 and my brother was my boss, he had to pull me aside one

day and say, Sylvia, I think it's time that you started wearing some makeup. Maybe just a little

bit of mascara. But I live with the freedom in childhood of not worrying about any of that stuff.

Yeah. And the other issue, one, it's not good for their skin. You're introducing

active, that their skin doesn't need. But also you're creating an emphasis on their appearance

very young. And I just think that's a shame to do that to young girls.

You're a mother of two women now, two young women in their, what, early 20s?

What are some of the business and sort of professional lessons that you've tried to consciously

instill in them? My girls have always been very involved in what I do because I, if I'm a way

or I'm spending time away from them, I like them to know what it is I'm doing and be interested

in it. And I've never spoken about work to them as well. It's a burden like, oh, I have to go

to work. It's like, I get to go and do this. And it's really exciting. And now they're older,

I'm showing them how. And they're showing me, you know, they're teaching me things as well.

So they, you know, their, their little fingerprints are all over many of the, you know,

the developments and things that we do at Eto. What are they teaching you about, you know,

what 20-year-old women want these days? Well, one example was we wanted to have this

antibacterial mask using the Turpin and Forell. All natural, a clay mask that ideally wouldn't try

your skin, but something you could use like two or three times a week and that it's just

and a beautiful product to use. So they all tested it and they tried it and then they're like,

well, the one that we love has got a brush. So can we do one with a brush? So we did one with a

brush in the tube. So that was a completely unique delivery of product that and makes it great to

use. And that really came from their suggestion. How do you try to set them up for the future in this

world where it's never been harder to be a 20 or 30-year-old trying to create some financial

independence and security for their lives into the future? How do you try to set them off on

that path and how involved do you get in that? Well, now they're a bit older, probably less involved,

but they both live at home, but I think I've instilled in them a work ethic. They both have a

really healthy work ethic. So they're out there, they're working for other businesses and other

brands and they're getting this feedback about their work ethic. So I'm really proud of that.

And I love to see them exploring their own paths and I think the most valuable thing

you can give to your children trying to navigate in today's world is to teach them to be

critical thinkers. I don't want them to think, I don't want them to, you know, they don't have to

think like me on politics or humanities or anything. I just want them to give them the tools to

think for themselves and to make up their own mind because they're going to get pushed and swayed

and the level of persuasion that these generations have. They live in the land of algorithms.

Yeah. So to try and, you know, to teach them a little bit about that and that, you know, you're

getting fed more of the same affirmation. So you're getting your viewpoint is becoming narrower.

And to try and, you know, to try and work and become a critical thinker because you need to.

And, you know, you shouldn't believe and can't believe the first thing you're told and you need

to know about trusting your instinct and learning, gathering more information before you make up

your mind and not being sort of swayed one way or the other. It's great advice in this brave

new world that we live in. You know, there'd be a lot of probably young women and men listening to

this today who would be thinking, well, you have got the dream gig, you know, working across

fashion and beauty and wellness and healthcare and the rest of it. All hits no misses as well.

What would you say to someone, you know, in their 20s these days about how to approach their career,

how to carve out a path that is truly fulfilling and satisfying and gives you a bit of purpose,

you know, a reason to get up in the morning and get out there and have a go?

Well, I think that I think it's really important to make sure that what you do is something that

you're morally aligned with. If you can, I mean, everyone's got to do, everyone's got to pay the

piper and do the job to pay the rents and we've all done that. But it's also if you to decide

what it is, you're going to be devoting a lot of your life to your career. And so don't decide too

soon. I had no idea what I wanted to do when I was the age that my daughters are now. So go out

and explore and find the thing if you don't know what it is yet and you don't need to have your

path determined at all. I've never had a plan. I've never had a 10-year plan or a five-year plan.

And I think also if you want to start something and do something independently in your 20s, then

it can seem insurmountable if you're an independent up against, you know, everything is owned by

the same people. So you sort of think of what you can do and what your advantage is of being

independent. I think all innovation and great new ideas come from independent brands. So you've

got a chance to shift categories and to change consumer behaviour for the better. But you can be

nimble and, you know, nimble and authentic and honest and you can do things that the big brands

can't do. So find those things and find those ways to, you know, you can move really quickly and

you can adapt and you can be clever and you can do all of those things that the big brands are

really bogged down in processes and committees and teams and they plan so far out. So you've got

that as an advantage and you've got also the advantage if your idea is something that is going

to change things for the good, then you've got an opportunity to really shift things as an independent.

Of all of your brands and achievements and products along the way, what are you most proud of?

Everything, everything that I've done has had, you know, you say they're all

hit but there are so many problems along the way and it never felt like a hit until right at the end.

So that's the other thing as well. It's how you deal with problems and how you resolve issues

within the business and also having that determination that when things are tough that you're

going to keep pushing through. I don't think it's that I've got the mightest touch or it's more

that I've just persevered through those difficult times and kept it going and then everyone marvels

at what a success it was but that it's that path to get there and that's where it gets back to,

that's a lot easier to do if you really believe in what you're doing. And you have to get comfortable

being uncomfortable sometimes, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. I've had some of my most humiliating moments

and humbling moments in business and they're, you know, that's good for you and it's good for

you to come through this with, you know, your ego in check as well. You deal with a lot of people

who, you know, they're driven by different motives and you meet a lot of egos in this business and

I think it's really important to keep a very level head on your shoulders because, you know,

what you're doing is you can do great things. You can create that one, that incredible mix of

art and commerce where both meet and you're actually doing something that is, you know, truly

inspiring and changes, you know, changes consumer behaviours for the better. So you get the opportunity

to do all of that but I think you really have to have at the core of it something that you believe

in to make that whole path possible. Well, you have your finger on the pulse when it comes to

brands and beauty and the entire, you know, marketing ecosystem that we live in these days,

what's the next wave? What do you think is the next trend that we'll see people diving into?

I think that particularly over the last sort of five years, there's a longing for a reconnection

with nature, a rewilding, if you like, and you can see it in little pockets everywhere and I think

this is a basic human trait and the further removed from it we get, the more we desire it or we miss

it. So I think that just to lead a natural life is probably where our happiness lies and it's not

that difficult, it's not as complicated as we make it. I've been on a mission to simplify my life

and I just find that everything that I do becomes a lot more thoughtful and considered you're

moving at a different pace and you appreciate, you know, very simple things. There's so much that we

do that we just don't need and so just to simplify and strip those things away, you end up having

a far clearer and more singular vision. Well, Andrea, I'm so grateful we could sit down while

you're in town this week. Thank you so much for giving me some time. It's lovely to chat. It's

lovely to be here. See you soon. And thank you for listening to this episode of The Pay Off with

me, Sylvia Jeffries. To get our episodes for free, as soon as we publish, press the follow button

in your podcast app right now. See you next time.