Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - LINDSAY CLANCY DEADLOCK TRIGGERS DYNAMITE CHARGE!

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2:03visit for hers.com. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Hi, I'm Sean Evans from Hot Ones, and I want to tell you about YouTube Premium. It has offline downloads, so you can watch without Wi-Fi. Background play, so you can lock your phone, and it still plays, baby. Oh, and it is completely ad-free. Yes, I said it ad-free. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Trial eligibility varies, terms apply, cancel anytime. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Three little tots, one and infant, all found strangled dead by mommy with her own exercise bands. I've noticed it when a woman is on trial for murder, specifically murder of her children, people search, scour for a motive. It doesn't matter.

3:04They're dead, she's alive. So far, the jury has been out for hours and hours. What does it mean? This is not a popularity contest. Was she a good mom? Was she a bad mom? It's only about intent at the time of the act. Either she's in psychosis or she is a criminal mastermind. You can see how vested people are in the outcome of this case. As we're talking about what is seeping into the minds of the jurors, well, they're certainly trained on Lindsey Clancy. Take a look at Lindsey Clancy grabbing her lawyer's hands in court. The sobbing and the crying and the hiding her face. I really don't know what to make of that because they're dead. I don't care how much she cries now. They're dead and she did it. With me here in the studio, Jackie Howard, Jackie, what's the latest? After six days of deliberations, the Lindsey Clancy jury remains deadlocked

4:06and the defense tries to remove a juror, they say will not follow the judge's reasonable doubt instructions. The 12th person jury again today told judge William Sullivan that they could not reach a unanimous verdict on whether Clancy is criminally responsible for the death of her three children. This was the second deadlock notice that came to the judge. After lunch on Thursday, the jury submitted a question to the judge. He did not read it aloud, but reiterated the legal definition of reasonable doubt and sent the jurors back to deliberate. Defense attorney Kevin Reddington told the court that one juror refuses to listen to law and asks the judge to remove that juror. Prosecutor Jennifer Sprig said there was no way to know the deliberations content and supported the judge's actions, which were to decline to remove the juror, saying it would be improper to side with one side. Joining us tonight, crime stories investigate a reporter Dave Matt.

5:14Nancy, this jury of 12 people are deliberating in their sixth day, well over 30 hours. Twice they've sent back notes to the judge saying we're deadlocked. We cannot come up with a verdict for you. The judge sent them back with a note yesterday. It's referred to outside of Massachusetts as the dynamite charge. In Massachusetts, it's called Tuirudriga. And what this is, it is a demand of the jury that you reconsider everything you've heard, consider everything you think about this and make a decision. The judge went so far as to point out, look, if we have to do this all over again, we're not going to find 12 jurors that are smarter than you, more fair than you. We've put our faith and our trust in you to come up with a verdict. Think about this, give it really serious thought as to what you believe and why you believe it.

6:15And be open to listening to everyone else. It is a real charge of not just being fair, but challenging yourself as a juror. We need a verdict. Doing it over again, it's not going to end up any different. There's no new evidence. Okay, there's no new defense. You've heard everything come up with a verdict. So now in that sixth day, over 30 hours of deliberations, will this jury finally come up with a verdict? The jury isn't merely considering between guilty and not guilty. Okay, they're actually the central dispute of the entire trial. Whether or not Clancy is criminally responsible because of the mental state that she allegedly experienced at the time of the deaths. This is a big consideration and we've seen it being discussed on multiple platforms all around the world. A lot of support coming in for Lindsey Clancy.

7:17The jury has to come up with a decision on first degree murder, second degree murder, manslaughter. They could also go not guilty or not guilty by reason of lack of criminal responsibility because of the mental state that she was allegedly in at the time of the deaths. That's what this jury has to decide. And after six days, more than 30 hours of deliberation, they've been given the charge. Come up with a verdict. So what leads us to the point at which we are at tonight in the Lindsey Clancy case? This case is not about our mental health system or how it treats women or what's in the DSM-5 and what's not. That's a distraction to get you angry and passionate about an important issue, but an issue that's not on trial here. What's on trial here, what the issue is here, is what Lindsey Clancy did the night of January 24th, 2023,

8:17and what her mental state was at the time. We are in a verdict watch here at Crime Stories as we wait for a verdict to be handed down in the case against so-called loving mom Lindsey Clancy. That's from our friends at East Idaho News. That is prosecutor Sprig as she gave her closing arguments with Tweed heavily on the minds of the jurors. So far, the jury has been out for hours and hours. What does it mean? We know that this morning to you, Shannon Hill, joining us, Starrov, Shannon Hill, News, that they came in first thing bright and early this morning, dressed to the nines. I was in the courtroom on Thursday during closing arguments. And the interesting thing is that the investigators who testified in the trial and the very beginning parts of the trial actually showed up and sat behind prosecution to show their support. And while Attorney Kevin Reddington was giving his closing argument, he pointed at them and said,

9:20I don't care that they're sitting here right now. He looked straight at the jury and told them, I don't care that these investigators are sitting here right now. That means nothing to him. Because he feels that his client is innocent. He also did the three coin toss on the table in front of the prosecution. And the public seems to really be taking that on as some sort of biblical message considering the topic of Catholicism has been brought up several times in the courtroom now. People are comparing a coin toss. They defense attorney did a coin toss in front of the jury at the prosecution table. He did a three coin slam to the prosecution's table and people are comparing this to the 30 pieces of silver in the Judas betrayal in the Bible. But what I actually took as a question, what did he say when he did the coin slam? What was the point in his mind? My interpretation was that it wasn't biblical at all and that he was actually pointing out each time

10:20he felt the prosecution manipulated the evidence against his client. So each coin stood for you know a different piece of evidence that prosecution brought up during the trial, which one was the drinking, the amount of drinking Lindsey Clancy did during the week. Another was the Facebook post about her son Dawson. And he the coins were there to represent each one of these times he felt that prosecution was being misleading or manipulative. Tracy Brown is joining us out of Boulder, Body Language Expert, Behavior, Analyst, trained alongside law enforcement and special forces. She's author of multiple books, most notably How to Detect Lies, Fraud and Identity, Thaft. And you can find her at BodyLanguageTrainer.com. Tracy, thank you for being with us. Hey, thanks for having me. Tracy, tonight I'd like you to look at certain moments in court captured in court because we're

11:25talking about what is seeping into the minds of the jurors. Well, they're certainly trained on Lindsey Clancy. Let's take a look. What do you see here, Tracy? Well, this is the first time she's seen him in court presumably in a long time. And her, she is under deep stress. Now she's really hard to read because she's paralyzed from the waist down. And in that restricts, I mean, it eliminates a lot of movements that we would normally see. Now here's what's interesting to me is that she licks her lips four times before he even says a word. It could be a lip grooming. So she's trying to look better. It could be that she's really stressed or it could be that she's really angry. Okay, so you have all of those and it could be a combo of all of those right there. Now she does something else with her eyebrows. Now the forehead is the billboard. The eyebrows are the writing. And so

12:27we want to look for small, small little movements in that writing to understand what emotions are really going on. And we start to see the media. That's above your nose. The middle part of her eyebrows go up. Okay, so that says there's sadness there. But then they start to rise just a little bit. And so there can be some fear and anxiety going on there too. So she has a lot of emotions going on all at once, even though she's really still. And like I said, she's one of the hardest people to read that I've ever had to do just because of the paralyzation. I lost out of my joy. On the way, we were with the county. I'm at the 2 p.d. at the rest. We're going to be chalate on the way. We're chalate at this time. You're hearing parts of the 911 dispatch call after three little tauts. One and infant. All

13:30found strangled dead by mommy with her own exercise bands. This message is brought to you by Ralph's. If you listen to True Crime podcasts, you know that details matter, especially the small, everyday details that might go unnoticed. And with Ralph's, you can plan ahead by keeping your kitchen stocked with fresh, quality essentials. So the small details in your day don't get overlooked or left to chance. Order online and pick up groceries at your local Ralph's. Ralph's serving so cal for over 150 years. What if your soda actually did something for you? Introducing Skypop Protein Soda. Skypop Protein Soda has 10 grams of complete protein, zero sugar, and real delicious soda taste. Skypop Protein Soda. Reach for the sky. Get your Skypop Protein Soda now at Target.

14:30On September 19th, the Monster Energy SMX World Championship Playoffs races into Los Angeles. And for the world's best 22 dirt bike racers, only one will go home number one. If all comes down to this, go experience all of the action live. Coming to Dignity Health Sports Park in Los Angeles, California, September 19th. Get your tickets now at supermodelcross.com. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. It's destroying, athlete, creator, and YouTube Maxer. YouTube Premium enhances how I use YouTube with awesome features like offline downloads, so I can download my favorite training videos before I hit the gym. So no Wi-Fi doesn't turn leg day into loading day. Plus, I get ad free videos, background play, and so much more. YouTube Premium is like YouTube got some extra gains. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Hey, what's up guys? It's Hayley Bailey.

15:31Okay, I need to tell you about something. I just got YouTube Premium. It's got tons of awesome features like offline downloads so I can download my favorite videos before I travel and watch them whenever I don't have Wi-Fi. Because we all know airplane Wi-Fi is the worst. I get ad free, I get background play, and there's like a ton more in there. You should try it. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. So try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Try eligibility varies. Terms apply, cancel anytime. That's a mouthful. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. We all know the stretchy nature of exercise bands or bungee cords. Imagine the force and exertion required. S like strangling someone with a rubber band. How hard she had to pull the exercise cords in order to murder her own children. And tonight we find out that one of the first things that comes out of her mouth

16:35when she's in the hospital, she's taken off the ventilator, she says, Do I have a lawyer? Okay. Straight out to Randy Kelser joining us. Veteran trial lawyer professor at the Emory Law School, former chair of the ABA Family Law section for the entire American Bar Association. Author of divorce, protect yourself, your kids, and your future, Randy. The reason I am emphasizing the force and exertion necessary to strangle not one, two, but three children, one of whom we believe ran in fear to his father's basement office, the older boy. There you see, Calum there. He's just an infant. Is akin to the reason I'm bringing it up is because you and I have argued that on different sides of the fence, of course, in court when it comes to the force necessary to pull a trigger.

17:41Remember, we just had that come up in court with a veteran and well-known lawyer in your jurisdiction that shot his wife dead and he said it was an accident. He said that he was sleeping and woke up and went, oh, bam, and killed his wife. Yeah, that did not work for me. The point is the force and exertion used to pull a trigger goes to intent. And here we have it intent times three. The force necessary to use us elastic bands to pull them so tightly as they were stretchy and giving. That takes a lot of force, a lot of exertion and a lot of time during which she could have formed intent. Kesser, do you agree with me? You know the law as well as I do that intent to commit a crime, any crime does not require a long period of planning intent can be formed as our former judge would say, Luther Alverson and the

18:46blink of an eye, the twinkling of a moment. In the time it takes you to raise a gun and pull the trigger. Much less the time it takes you to pull and pull and pull exercise bands to kill them. That's time to form intent. Yes, she had the time to form intent. She had that intent and she killed her children. But the question mildly statement and my closing argument would be she did this because that's the only question the defense can rely on which is, no, I know Mote is not a question in front of this jury, but she did this because and the jury is going to fill that answer, that blanking with she was crazy, she was psychotic, she was mentally insane because there's no other answer that question. She did this because why she wanted out of the marriage, she wanted, there was no other answer that makes as much sense as she did this because she was not mentally capable of making the right decision. That's the only defense that the defense has. Randy, Kessar, could you hold up your sign again, please? I'd like to say that.

19:49You like my artwork? Okay, I'm very impressed. Okay, I'm impressed that you had your assistant print that out. Straight out to Penny, commit. Penny, commit joining us, Boston Investigative Reporter, WBZ, CBS Boston has covered multiple high profile cases, including this one. Penny, commit, thank you for being with us. I'm going to get into all the facts, but answer me this, riddle me this, Penny. One of the first things that came out of her mouth when she came to when they removed the breathing device was about a lawyer, isn't that true? What did she say? So one of her doctors testified that she was actually writing answers on a piece of paper, because she had all these tubes in her mouth. She was hooked up to all these different pieces of equipment. And she wrote that she felt horrified. And then she asked where is her family? And then one of the first things she did asked is do I need a lawyer?

20:54She denied suicidal ideation. She denied homosexual ideation. She said she wasn't hearing voices or seeing anything. They saw the entire time she was there in no signs of psychosis. In fact, every doctor she saw from toughs in September all the way through toughs at January 23rd. None of them saw any signs of psychosis ever. So they're all wrong. All these different doctors and all these different practices, they're all collectively together wrong. That doesn't make sense. Here at 413, you see her search for takeout from 3v. And then immediately after she does the abl-mat search to see how long it takes to get to 3v. Well, defense wants you to believe that you know she was checking that because she didn't want him gone for too long. She wanted him home. She was at distress. If you're in distress, don't send him anywhere. Make food at home,

21:56have him cook. Get delivery. Get door dash. Go to the one of the other restaurants that Patrick mentioned that were two minutes down the road. That is prosecutor Spray in her closing statements to the jury, which way very heavily on the jurors as they go out for deliberations. That's my friends at East Idaho News. Straight out to Dr. Cheryl, Eric joining us, clinical forensic psychologist specializing in cases just like this. Dr. Cheryl, thank you for being with us. So you just heard prosecutor Spray describing clear planning. The law is because intent can be formed just like that. And here we see clear planning, which no one really wants to address because we all find it much more comfortable to believe, oh, okay, she was insane. That's better than her planning the death of her children. Can you be in post-partum psychosis and intent to kill? You're you're looking at intent and you're looking at planning and Nancy,

23:05Lindsey Clancy could absolutely have done planning that was triggered by auditory hallucinations and planning that was shaped by psychotic delusions. For example, if she believed that she was protecting her children from something by killing them. She could very much in a psychotic state plan that carried out. And then when she came out of the psychotic state being a completely different state of mind, people really confuse post-partum psychosis, which is incredibly rare. You see this one or two in a thousand, whereas post-partum depression is much, much more common. This is a loss of touch with reality. This is a person when they are in a psychotic state who cannot think about the law and reality and all of the state of mind, things that her mother-in-law testified to about what a wonderful loving mother she was when she was in her right mind. But post-partum psychosis is different and it doesn't look like regular psychosis. When I watch the prosecution talk

24:12are all of these doctors wrong because they didn't see it. They were on Zoom with her for 20 minutes here and there. Post-partum psychosis rapid cycles and people can look really, really insane one minute and look completely put together the next and hours later. This is something that is a psychiatric emergency. It's an obstetric emergency and she absolutely could plan the missing. When we look at motive, we look at all of the testimony from the people in her life. If she wasn't in a psychotic state where she could not tell what was real and what wasn't, what is the motive? Why would this woman do this terrible heinous thing to her children? That doesn't make sense. Dr. Cheryl, Dr. Cheryl, here's the deal. No one has to prove motive. In any child killing, you can say, what's the motive? Why would you kill a child? I don't know. All I want to know is if she could

25:16form intent to kill and clearly she did. Listen. What she told Dr. Sattoff, that when she gets the call, she's at the fridge getting chicken nuggets out of the fridge to make dinner. You heard from Patrick when he's leaving, Dawson is sitting on the couch eating chicken nuggets and green beans out of a bowl. So why would the defendant make that up? Why would she say she's doing that during the phone call? Because if she's already killed the kids because of a voice and being compelled and it being against her will and she's like a puppet, then she can't get a call and miss it and then call the person back and have a conversation and then hang up. A puppet can't do those things. Those are decisions and choices and actions that she's controlling. Positators pray giving closing statements from East Idaho News. So how do you reconcile that, Dr. Cheryl Erich?

26:20She's cherry picking. We can look at intent. We can look at what is the state of mind when someone is formulating intent. And the question that they have to prove is that she was conscious of reality, of the law, of the meaning of this, that this was a permanent forever separation from her children that she was committing a crime. This is something that they have to prove and they have not, they have not demonstrated that. I hear what you're saying, but let me give you the legal parameters within which you should be working on this case. Intent is the intent to do the act. It doesn't mean that you're thinking about it as you describe forever separation. It's rather, I have intent to hold a begun and shoot you in the head. That intent. If you say I'm the devil, to get her husband out of the house so she could kill the children.

27:24She had intent to kill the children. What we're looking at was she criminally responsible. What was her state of mind when she formulated the intent? And that is a forensic psychiatric issue. Her state of mind when she formulated the intent matters in this case. If she is not guilty, if she's found not guilty by reason of insanity, she may have formulated intent under a delusion. And it depends on whether it's egocentonic or egocentonic. Ego-distonic is when someone is having thoughts of hurting their baby and they're absolutely horrified by it and it scares them. Ego-sentonic means they are having these thoughts and they think that's not an awful thing. That is not something that the evidence shows that was a normal state of mind for this woman. And there are lots and lots of attempts that this woman made from what I can see to get help. And a whole lot of people who did not understand postpartum psychosis. This woman should have been hospitalized immediately with her baby if possible. Never left alone with her baby if possible.

28:30She should have been given lithium. She should have been there are all kinds of best practices about postpartum psychosis that were not followed even by the admission of the treating mental health professionals here. This is a tragedy. But this does not look to me like a casey Anthony or somebody who is out partying and not I mean it's a completely different mentality than what we've seen in some of these other awful cases that you and I have covered. Let's see the video again. You know to you Dr. Jarlan Utter, Utter is a clinical psychologist. By the way this is from our friend Nate Eaton Everett East Idaho News in the courtroom every single day. To me she looks upset. She looks hurt. Maybe she's thinking about what they had that she completely destroyed with the three murders. Maybe she still loves him. He testified for the state as I recall. Maybe she

29:35sees it as some sort of betrayal. She just looks very hurt and anxious like she doesn't know what's about to happen. To Jarlan Utter, Dr. Jarlan Utter, you know when you see your ex possibly for the first time in a long time there are floods of emotion much less when you've killed his three children. I mean I agree with you Nancy she definitely entrace. She definitely looks like she is emotional but when it comes to reading the small gesticulations in her face I think one thing that we want to remember is that she is on a variety of different psychiatric medications that can cause something called tardyde dyskinesia. And that is exactly kind of what she could be demonstrating which is the lip movements. You have like involuntary lip movements, brow movements. So to Tracy's point she's saying she's hard to read and you know we want to we want to measure that as a confounding factor that the facial movements

30:37the lips moving that could be a side effect or a reverse event of medication but she does look very sad and upset. The thing that I noticed as well is she seems to be looking straight ahead. I don't know she's looking exactly at him but she can also be depersonalizing and you know kind of dissociating. Checking out in that moment maybe not staring directly at him but around him to try to manage some of her emotions even though she's clearly emoting a little bit on the screen there we can see. Based on her reaction to him in court I would like to point out to Dr. Jerelyn Utter when that happened the online response was overwhelming that somehow he was involved. Again she admits she killed her children she has played not guilty in GBRI not guilty by reason of insanity which says which means I did it but I was insane. So let's be clear she has

31:42pled not guilty by reason of insanity she admits she did it. Nobody's claiming patch of clancy did this but something about this video something about her reaction in court has engendered a lot of sympathy a lot of empathy and a lot of blaming patch of clancy. Why you know what let me go to Shannon Hill on that star Shannon Hill news. What is this just groundswell of hatred toward the husband and empathy toward her? I think it really started off with the surveillance footage found in CVS that night as well as the 3v restaurant. The online sleuths are claiming that Patrick Clancy changed his clothes between the time he went to CVS and the time he went to 3v restaurant and this is where all of the rumors began but if you look very closely at the footage from 3v and CVS the 3v footage is a little clearer

32:43and more concise whereas the CVS footage is a little more grainyir so you're seeing something that might look a little different in the next surveillance footage because they're completely different qualities. Different lighting. Different side profile. This message is brought to you by Ralph's. If you're listening to this podcast chances are you like to make the most of your time. That kind of thinking can go a long way at home too. And with Kroger you can plan ahead by stocking your kitchen with fresh groceries and every day essentials making the rest of your day feel easier right from the start. Order online and pick up groceries at your local Ralph's. Ralph's. Serving so cal for over 150 years. What if your soda actually did something for you? Introducing Skypop Protein Soda with 10 grams of complete protein, zero sugar and 45 calories. Skypop Protein Soda offers four delicious flavors

33:46with big taste and real benefits. Light, refreshing and ready for wherever your day takes you. It's any time protein that helps you reach higher. Skypop Protein Soda. Reach for the sky. Get your Skypop Protein Soda now at Target, Ralph's or GoPuff. On September 19th, the Monster Energy SMX World Championship playoffs races into Los Angeles. This is it. It's all the line. Now the pressure is on to deliver. And for the world's best 22 dirt bike racers, only one will go home number one. It all comes down to this. Go experience all of the action live. Coming to Dignity Health Sports Park in Los Angeles, California, September 19th. Get your tickets now at supermodocross.com. Offline downloads so I can download my favorite training videos before I hit the gym.

34:49So no Wi-Fi doesn't turn leg day into loading day. Plus, I get ad-free videos, background play, and so much more. YouTube Premium is like YouTube got some extra gains. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Hey, what's up guys? It's Hayley Bailey. Okay, I need to tell you about something. I just got YouTube Premium. It's got tons of awesome features like offline downloads. So I can download my favorite videos before I travel and watch them whenever I don't have Wi-Fi. Because we all know airplane Wi-Fi is the worst. I get ad-free, I get background play, and there's like a ton more in there. You should try it. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. So try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Try out eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. That's a mouthful. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace to Randy Kessler hearing the premeditation, the planning, and what the children endured. And I've seen this in court a million times. Defense attorneys do their very best.

35:53So the jury doesn't hear what the victims went through. There is no victim in the courtroom. All the jury sees is the defendant. This defendant is paralyzed from the waist down from jumping out of her window. So they are seeing her looking sympathetic. And I think what happened to the children is getting lost in the sauce Randy. But I want to hear your response to the effort it took to strangle the children. And that some of her first communications were, do I have a lawyer? Not. Did my children live? How are my children? What have I done to my children? Is this a horrible dream? Are they dead? Are they alive? But do I have a lawyer? I find that to be troublesome to say the least. And come on with the horrific nature of murder. No question about it. But all of those tax Nancy are prejudicial, not provident. Those facts don't need to be said. They're being said to play on the

36:59sympathy of the jury. The question, the issue of whether she did this has been answered. She's acknowledged it. She admitted it. Her lawyer said she did it. Whether she did it, and it caused a lot of pain or a little pain, it's horrible. But they're emphasizing how much pain to cause these children, how horrible it was, to get the jury more sympathetic to the victims and more likely to want to punish the mother. But that's not the legal standard. Legal question here is not how bad was it? How much did they suffer? The question is, did she do it because she had a mental break, because she was in a state of psychosis? And none of the questions you're raising, none of the issues you're bringing up mitigate or change the fact that if she did it, it was because she was under a state of psychosis. There's no other reason. She did not hate the husband. That is absolutely not correct, Kessler, because she could create a plan intent and then carry out the intent. That goes to presence of mind. It goes to frame of mind, course of conduct,

38:02so many more aspects that are probative at trial. I appreciate your attempt. Maybe the defense attorney can learn from what you just said. Joining us now, Dr. Leslie Dobbson, clinical forensic psychologist, host of a brand new podcast on I Heart Intentionally Disturbing. And you can find her at Dr. Leslie Dobbson.com, author of The Friend Clans. How to set boundaries with energy vampires. Dr. Leslie weigh in. I think she was floor at least psychotic and you cannot convince me otherwise. We have a violence free history, a happy mother, and she faked going to all these doctors, getting all these medications, faked being completely insane, faked having all of this anxiety, faked suicidal thoughts and harm for her children, and all of a sudden premeditated, killed her three kids and jumped out a window and wanted to be paralyzed. It makes no sense. And there is no way the prosecution is going to be able to convince a jury to say without doubt

39:06that there was no question of insanity. Well, of course, that's not the legal standard. Dr. Leslie, the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, not no doubt beyond a reasonable doubt. Well, it's two prongs and Massachusetts. And they are. The two prongs are that you have to, we need clear and convincing evidence. So do we have doubt and do we actually believe that she was sane or insane at the time of the crime? Back to you, Jeff Gentry. Again, why would she search on the internet, sending her husband on an errand and in the moment the door is closed, she kills the children. And he calls to ask her a question in the middle of that. And she puts on an Oscar-winning performance acting like nothing is wrong, speaks normally into the phone. Okay. Has the conversation. I think we both agree that we're not going to be on the same page with this one because I think

40:09that that could mean anything. But I do want to talk about the evidence. I want to talk about the way she harmed these children. I mean, that's not a normal method of homicide. It's spur the moment you grab the closest thing nearby and you harm your children. And then even the way that she harmed herself. People grab kitchen appliance. People stick a blade and microwave. Let's look at what we saw upstairs. So we see blood evidence that indicates that multiple stuff inflicted injuries, which that can happen in somebody that's wanting to harm themselves. But then you have pills involved. You have diving out of a window. Those are not normal. I mean, normally when somebody harms himself, they pick one method and they do it. They don't use multiple methods to inflict injury on themselves. So this is essentially over. Amazing that none of them work, doesn't it? It really is amazing. You worked on the children, but it didn't. She did not actually commit suicide. But to me, all of this adds up and shows that this is kind of a spur of the moment thing. This

41:11isn't necessarily something that's planned out. Maybe she heard the voice and sent her husband away for a period of time. But nothing to me about this crime suggests that this is spur of the moment. Plus her entire history shows that she has mental health issues that she's prone to postpartum depression, that this could be a psychosis related issue as opposed to something that was planned. I'm not saying that she didn't kill her kids. I'm not saying that she didn't harm them. But we have to look at the entire set of circumstances. We also have to look at Patrick's involvement in this too. Where was he at when she was struggling? Where was he at? I was mentioning before. I'm a father of four. I have full custody of all four of my children. I have always been part of their life. And if my children's mother was struggling with mental health issues or possibly saying that she was going to harm the children, there is no way in hell I would ever leave that person alone with my kids. I would have them out at the store picking up groceries with me. Shannon Hill joining us host of Shannon Hill News. Shannon to try and answer the question I was asking were Lensy Clancy's

42:17fingerprints on the exercise bands or just her DNA? Nancy, from my understanding there weren't exact fingerprints. However, there was mixed DNA. We have to remember that the children's DNA was on the exercise bands and they both carry DNA pieces from both parents. So there wasn't really a stand alone DNA that stood out to forensic scientists when they were looking over these pieces of evidence. It was mixed DNA. All family members. So, what do you name her? And the husband. No fingerprints. Correct. As far as I know there were no fingerprints. Alice, look, what's your understanding as well? Star of Legal Briefs Podcast and the Prosecutors Podcast? That's right. I'd also note that that's going to be a substance that's going to be very hard to get any fingerprints off of. So, I'm not surprised there are no fingerprints. That doesn't mean she wasn't the one to have her hands around it. To Alice LeCore and Shannon Hill, what can you tell me about her internet searches leading

43:23up to this day? We hear gentry going on and on about how this wasn't planned, but I'm referring to January 20, 2023 and more. To you, Alice, what were the searches? I want to point out something that the defense actually brought out that I don't think I picked up on until Reddington said it in closing. She has been planning this for weeks. She was keeping detailed notes in her journal about her medications and the effects it had on her until January 18th, the week before the murders. At that point, she stops writing everything. And in fact, she goes back to a note in December, just the night before. And she edits that note, seeming to blame the medications and her doctors for the way she's feeling. And it's a clear suicide note. This note was not read out loud, but it was flashed on the screen. I think she stopped taking these meticulous notes on January 18th, because she had decided what she was going to do. She just needed to look for the opportunity.

44:27So even all of her friends, her family and Patrick themselves said, she seemed much better. She had the best day she'd had on January 24th, the day of the murders. Did you know that her sister is a certified therapist? A certified therapist, she talked to daily. Her sister never saw the need, saw the need to intervene, to come to her house, to give her, you know, involuntary commitment. She had all of the support around her. And it's because she knew exactly what to say to people so that she could get her way. Shannon, he'll, what about it, including the internet searches? Nancy, one of the searches that Lindsey Clancy made was, can you cure a sociopath? Which sort of breaks at the psychotic defense? Because she was clear-minded enough three days before the murders to Google, can you cure a sociopath on her phone? This is something that the prosecution has talked about throughout the trials is she was of clear mind. She was googling

45:33how to cure a sociopath. To Dr. Janie Lacey also joining us tonight, it's like a therapist and CEO of life counseling solutions and author of How to Heal from a Toxic Relationship host. Let's talk about it with Janie Lacey. Way in, Dr. Lacey. You know, Nancy, what I would say is it is hard, and I'm hearing the conversation. It is hard for people to pull to truth that someone can have moments of being a good mother and also not want to be a mother. And this is where I land. We're not arguing whether postpartum psychosis is real. It is real. However, this is what we look at. And I've been a psychotherapist for 20 years. It is one of the most severe emergencies in psychiatry, right? Postpartum psychosis is not the baby blues and it is not even a standard postpartum depression. It is a full break from reality. Hallucinations, delusions, a mind that can no longer trust what it's seeing

46:36or hearing. It is rare. And when it happens, it happens fast. I kind of equated to like a medical emergency, like a stroke or cardiac event, right? You're not planning. You're not googling. You're not doing all those things when it happens. It happens and it happens quickly. It's real and it's treatable when it's caught in time. But when we're looking at this case as a whole, there is a contradiction. Okay, what's the contradiction? The contradiction is that when we're looking at someone that has the evidence of googling, planning, there's forethought, there is timing, there is all the things that we're talking about in today's show. That is not a break in reality. That is the contradiction. Well, we look at psychotic, psychiatric treatment of postpartum psychosis. It is a break in reality. I like to equate it so that normal people don't understand. It's like having a stroke or having a cardiac arrest. I'm not googling a cardiac arrest or a stroke before I think I'm going to have a stroke, right? It just happens. And that is the difference between what we're

47:36talking about all the treatment for postpartum depression, postpartum depression. The baby loses that is something very different when we're looking at this very rare diagnosable condition. That is a contradiction, Nancy. If you know or think you know anyone considering suicide, please dial the suicide hotline. You can call or text very simply 988. Tonight we remember American hero, deputy sheriff Troy Bailey, Lancaster County Sheriff's Nebraska passed away in the line of duty after 33 years on the force, leaving behind grieving fiance Danielle and children, Rachel Taylor and Trevor. American hero, deputy sheriff Troy Bailey. Thank you to all of our guest being with us tonight, but especially to you. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night and until then, good night.

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