Crisis, M&A and Trading: communicating commodities with Will Medvei

0:00Welcome to the HC Comortis Podcast, a podcast dedicated to the Comortis sector and the people within it. I'm your host Paul Chapman. This podcast is produced by HC Group, a global search firm dedicated to the Comortis sector. Today we're talking corporate communications, crisis management and why it's on hard mode when it comes to the Comortis sector. Why is the Comortis sector so prominent? How has the sector had to change in respect to communications? And why is it so hard to explain to investors and shareholders why trading matters? Our guest is Will Medve, partner at Brunswick, a global communications agency where will overseas the energy and resources practice. As always you can support the show by leaving us a positive review on the platform you're listening on.

1:00And as always I hope you enjoyed the episode. We'll welcome to the show. Thank you for having me Paul. So we are talking communications, corporate communications, crisis communications, broadly and then tying it into the Comortis sector and why in some ways it's communications on hard mode but also so vital and critical for the industry to get right, not just for events but also in the long term. We're going to start off on what is corporate communications. Brunswick is a global communications agency. You've described yourself as a critical issues business. So I think we should start right there. To me I've never heard that term. So we love to get a broad overview of exactly what modern corporate communications, modern communications sector is and what it deals with. Yeah, well thank you. I think thinking about the critical issues point, it's really that companies are affected

2:04by multiple different kinds of issues that come out of a whole series of different moments with their different stakeholders. So any given company, frankly in any sector, but Comortis obviously has a particular lens to it, has a variety of stakeholders whether that's their employees, its media, its government, its regulators, it's the communities in which they operate and is their investors of course as well. So we have a particular platform of audiences for companies to talk to about what they're doing and they all have an interest in what that company is doing whether because they have a direct stake in it or they work in it or their lives are in some way impacted in it or they have that kind of legislative governmental role. So really critical issues is thinking about how those different kind of nexus points around the company and the pressure points for that company are affected. What we do on the communications side, I guess there are probably a variety of ways you

3:05could describe what is communications, what is corporate communications, but if I take a kind of step back, there's probably a couple of big buckets that you think should think about for communications. The first is talking to your external stakeholders and there's a kind of a broad basket of different disciplines in that. So that first of all as I touched on, there's media relations and I think that's probably what people classic think of around communications is about media handling, it's about media relationships and of course it is, that's a very important part of what it is about and it's about building these relationships with journalists making sure that they have a good understanding of what the company is doing where it's at and of course at critical moments really stepping in and having some sometimes quite robust discussions with them about where they're coming from and where the company is. Now the big part of that is about making sure you're getting a fair hearing as a business. There is of course the digital communications as well which is really the last 20, 30 years for very obvious reasons has grown exponentially in our world and frankly in everyone else

4:08as well as technology has become a much bigger part of our everyday lives and that touches on your corporate website, your social media channels, the bit of that's linked in or if you're a B2C business, some of them are kind of marketing side things like tech talk other areas and so of course your own channels but also the channels that other people use to talk about you and then there is increasingly large language models AI which is where people are more and more finding information out about who you are and what you're doing as a first point of call so you need to make sure that you're understanding where they are and what they're doing. So that's media relations and digital communications, it's also about making sure that you are talking to those communities and why to stakeholders and then there are specialist disciplines or more specialist disciplines like financial communications so communications around transactions, IPOs, shareholders activism and then of course as you mentioned at the beginning, crisis and issues management. So that's the first bucket is those external audiences.

5:12The second is more on the internal side, so your employee audiences and really that's about employing engagement and working pretty closely with HR teams as well as senior management to when done effectively internal comms will help build internal culture, help build where this company is going, support the kind of sense of purpose of it and that can be enormously powerful in galvanising insider organisation as it looks to attract and retain and motivate talent across the board and internal communications has a role to play with that in that and then finally there's sort of adjacent disciplines so government relations are touched on, regulatory affairs, investor relations or I say they're adjacent to you and they're all incredibly important and they're all part of the picture but they don't necessarily sit within corporate communications. My final point on this would be that you have this great plathor of different disciplines, different companies will structure their departments and they might call them corporate affairs and might call them corporate communications or stakeholder issues or external affairs whatever they call it.

6:13But what really matters I think and where corporate communications really comes into its own is making sure that whatever your corporate structure is, whatever your all chart is, is actually that you've got harmony across those different disciplines and by that I mean that you're not saying one thing to your investors and it's saying something that's indirect conflict to that with your employees or with government. Everything's got to hang together and it may be different aspects of the same story but they've got to sit in harmony and increasing them will probably come on to this in a bit but modern audiences consume information in so many different ways. They see a lot of the information and communications that are primarily tailored for different audiences because they're seeing it online, they're seeing it in news and wherever else. So it's a broad basket of disciplines but that are put together to help a company achieve certain goals and ambitions but graphically the critical role that I think a corporate communications team will play is making sure that those are joined up in harmonious. Okay so there's a lot there. I've got

7:19some sort of tactical questions which is perhaps the recruiter in me talking about how actually the people and the structure this works. I guess a couple of things that strikes me just off the bat is and this is part of talking about why I guess why we're doing a podcast on corporate communications and commodities is that two things have definitely happened. One is we've moved a long way from Milton Freeman's the only stakeholder is the shareholder world right yeah and secondly so that you've had a cascading and important you know that we live in the world that we do with many more stakeholders at the same time and in sort of in confluence the number of channels and access to those stakeholders as multiplied as well right with your through the medium of social media now AI the world has collapsed on itself in terms of size and the channels are respectively much shorter and much more broad to those different stakeholders so you just it's not a world you can ignore anymore which brings me onto my question generally speaking is you know is corporate communications now a

8:26key part of your your leadership team your boards discussions I mean how you know it has has likes of Brunswick are you now in the boardroom more than you ever were because it's so vital and has such an impact on shareholder value of course but also the ability the social license to operate to use the phrase yeah and the short answer is yes and and increasingly so it will depend on the issue it will depend on on where the company is coming from and its own its own focus but absolutely we are increasingly sitting alongside the board and the executive team as they're making decisions and and obviously they're seeing the communications team as well so it it absolutely does get elevated to that level I think you'll write that I mean in a way I think that what what's fundamentally changed this number of channels and where people consume information and how accessible that information is short answer is they consume it much faster

9:30across many more different channels and it's far more accessible so so all those things come together but it but but but but but but but they've kind of in some ways the fundamentals haven't really changed you know you're still trying you're still trying to read that your audience is still the same you're still trying to reach your employees they still matter enormously and and your your investor still matter enormously government regulators still matter and honesty communities still matter enormously so so it is just the speed at which everything happens is is far greater I think I think there is an element though that also you know it is as a as a discipline communications is is is maturing has matured and that has inevitably seen that sort of rise up the boardroom agenda so so we are closer and in and sit alongside the C suite and you think about the kind of issues that where we deal with you know certainly on the crisis side that absolutely gets you into the boardroom because you know they are critical reputational issues that speak to quite often management competency and executive grip but but also if in this case

10:35of whichever of a material transaction that is potentially transformational for the business they need to it you know they need you in the room to help explain that to different stakeholders and I mean I take now we can come on to this but if you take M&A now you know increasingly there is a political dimension to that so it's not just are we talking to the right media are we talking to the right you know are we talking to the right investors are are our financial communication materials up to scratch that all absolutely matters but also are you know are we bringing our employees along with us but there is also in an increasingly politicized environment there is a need to navigate government far more than there was I mean I don't think that's it's it's never not being the case but I think it's increasingly the case that government is a is a is a bigger and bigger stakeholder whether that's formally through things like CIFIUS and fur in the US or fur bin Australia or the National Security Investment Act in in the UK or whether it's just you know political

11:39focus and attention on on what's going on in sector yeah well which is absolutely the case in the commodities sector right yeah that's it you know and and let's spend a moment on that I just kind of just thinking back at it also fascinates me that I've seen examples we've seen examples of where communications has gone you know wrong so badly that it's cost the CEO his his or her role notably in energy you know even though the actual sort of operational outcomes would have been the same under the any leader kind of thing also as well we've seen CEOs who've been attracted like a moth to a light and I say this sort of slightly ironically as one who has a co-seo as a podcast but you know who sort of end up far more on TikTok far more than they should and and typically they're skews that way but just so so let's zoom in on commodities and I guess you I'll discuss an anecdote that I think kind of captures imperfectly kind of the the essential

12:40challenge that the commodities sectors faces and in many ways how their absence from any kind of corporate communications and so and typically gun shyness of being anywhere near government so forth has has cost them a narrative and in the wake of things I enrol and so forth but a very very senior banker at a very large European bank was describing a typical global risk committee meeting annually over which he sits over the commodities and resources sector and saying that for what was relatively small sums compared to some of their other divisions you know he would be absolutely hauled over the coals each January or whenever it was answering for why they should go ahead and lend a a billion to said trading house when said trading house had just been fined however many millions for some infraction or historical event right yeah but the minute it got onto lending to

13:41large global tech firm and I'm just avoiding using companies on the basis of protectors all but who would you know it was it was green lights all the way and isn't that banker fantastic for being part of that syndicated debt despite the fact that that said tech company had just been fined to the chewed a billions for infractions that had citizens you know statewide ramifications societal ramifications for our children all the rest of it right and there in that story is encapsulated that it seems so visceral the commodities world it's and and part of that is I think in a way will you tell me but some of it seems to be that the tech firms have done a very good job of becoming narratively sort of floating on clouds above the real world and I know a ever impact and you know this is the story of the you know you know we very think about the economic the material cost the dark cloud as Petron on our on one of the episodes we did with him talked about the

14:48environmental load that goes into your cell phone but also on the flip side commodities being such a real world industry right a real world industry that sits in the first world in many cases as well where we are digging stuff out the ground it's getting processed it's heavy it impacts us all it shows up in the inflation reports the moment an event happens I mean it's very easy it's very visceral it's very tangible it impacts us all it seems that therefore commodities is is very much communications on hard mode I'd love to get your take on that yeah I might think I think I think this is it's such an interesting place for the commodities sector here I mean it's a paradox really isn't that because as you just said commodities touches on almost everything right it's it's at the center of the energy that we use the the food we eat the materials that we build with and and as you just said you know it's in all a lot of the technologies that we rely on increasingly now and so it kind of sits at really the heart of so many of the most important

15:53issues and questions that we face as a society you know energy security affordability climate change trade industrial competitiveness geopolitics and national security and yet it's it's it's it's both all those things and it's also kind of invisible when it does its job properly the better that the industry does the less most people really need to think about it on a day to day basis similar to that kind of that classic image of you know you're fricking on the kettle in the morning you don't think about the gas that's coming out of the North Sea or the you know the the Permian Basin or wherever to power to power that and and just because that kind of attachment from the from the physical world I think has increased despite the fact that this is all absolutely essential to the way that we live so and so that when actually the industry is it you do see the industry it's normally when something goes wrong or there is a negative connotation

17:01or there are bad things going on so it you know there are obviously obviously major crisis and and issues at some of the some of the industrial plants that they run but that makes it very physical and obvious issue but there's obviously climate change and another area is where the negatives of the industry are seen but the positives are largely just taken for granted in our everyday lives I think that makes it very difficult and has done for a very long time for the industry to retort positively and it certainly makes it very difficult for the industry to find positive third party advocate some of those were going to some jargon but you know there are very few people outside the sector who are willing to talk positively about it because there's no benefit to doing that if we talk about tech positively and you're not involved in tech on a day to day basis you sound like some sort of visionary or some sort of you know future seer but if you talk about oil and gas and you say well actually yes there are some negatives here

18:01but there's also a lot of benefits yeah it just it's just very little upside doing that yeah and fundamentally lost the war in many ways right well I think I think the war for talent the war for yeah I mean and that is part of that we're going to end up talking about this that because I think it has a profound impact and I you know we've had Mike Howard on the podcast use and they're like there are people out there trying to do it and it's a bit easier in the US than I think in Europe but you know unless the great talent goes into the sector you know we are not going to have we're going to have a less efficient less responsible less dynamic and less changing sector than we would do without the other thing it does that strikes me is that it one of its challenges is it brings the the third world closer or maybe that's the wrong way of saying it it brings kind of the most you know you can be a tech company and be completely distance from you know we've done an episode on tantalum tantalum is in all of our phones yet it's artisanally

19:04mind which is a nice way of saying you know it's non-organized it's human labor it's often kids women and so forth by nature that's how you know that's just the the fundamental economics of the sector you know the commodities industry is interacting with the developing world because that's where a lot of these resources sit it's just very very complex and we're going to talk about as well the other bit that the commodities sector has a challenge with and this is kind of with its own employees as well especially in large corporates is explaining trading right and we're going to come onto that because trading itself it is heavily discounted by Wall Street it's hard to explain it's hard to understand how in an oil major the oil price could go down and yet that they have a great quarter yeah yeah but let's start talking about I guess some core examples so we're going to talk about disasters we're going to talk about you know what to do then we're going to talk about disasters M&A you've mentioned and then I want to end up on the trading piece so let's

20:06let's start off in kind of the in crisis right and as we alluded to earlier this is made or break broken companies certainly CEOs and you know is absolutely vital for every leadership team big or small to have a plan in place because they can strike whenever and they particularly strike often in the commodities sector where everything from the physical operations having disasters all the way through to big losses from trading books or human driven scandals you know in a world that is doing hard things in hard places and suddenly having you know whichever department of justice telling up on your front doorstep asking questions or you know etc and by the way to get it clear clearly this is a trust based business if there's trust lost your competitors won't trade with you and things can spiral very quickly but let's yeah I think outline why crisis in commodities is crisis on hard mode can you just give us some sense of why that is and then

21:11you know I think we can't get into a crisis communication workshop but kind of some sense of yeah of what companies need to have in places in advance and what some of the best companies have ready to go yeah absolutely well I mean I think you're right commodities and if you think about it at a very simple level this is a sector I mean obviously there are trading houses that don't have any physical assets but those that do have physical assets and then of course the those energy companies that operate either in the downstream or the upstream they tend to operate very large very complicated bits of industrial kit that are moving in the case of oil and gas but but you know also they'll say move a large amount of metal but some pretty combustible materials and they're doing that in some fairly hostile environments whether that's a deep very altitude water or extremes of temperature or in high you know near populated areas or they are you know in some levels particularly with mining they are in some way in competition for for resources so I'm

22:19thinking particularly about water for mining with with local farmers and everything else so there is a there's a sort of dynamic there that's that's that's that's set up for potential conflicts unless it's handled really carefully but they they are very large industrial assets where despite enormous efforts by the industry extraordinary engineering capabilities and and very very stringent safety health and safety things can and very tragically do go wrong so that's why I think you know crisis and crisis communications is so heavily drilled into this sector and and and sits at and you know the very best companies spend a lot of time on I mean at a very basic level at just rehearsing crisis and and their crisis communications protocols and they have very detailed protocols and books for handling different kind of crises and making sure the people are drilled and that there is that kind of method that muscle memory inside the organization for how how they need to respond and what the protocols are and where they sit in the in in in the chain for

23:21it's something goes wrong that's fascinating so that's actually so they are sort of doing dry runs on this was that the case 10 years ago or is that I'm yeah I know I again it depends on the company but I think if you take the North Sea UK North Sea I mean I guess for trading houses because I you know for trading houses yeah well I mean I think where trading houses have I have either got physical assets then then then you're more likely to see that or they have experienced some sort of crisis themselves some sort of reputational crisis some sort of you know as you as you are leading to some sort of financial issue or anything else like that then then that tends to have sparked a need to okay look next time we need to do this better that means we need to be better prepared for it that means we need to rehearse and practice for this kind of thing going wrong but but it normally needs either either the the operation of physical assets in some form or another where things can go wrong or for a previous crisis to have happened and that tends to be a catalyst

24:24for a shift in how management look at look at that kind of problem and manage that because they see because the problem is obviously it's a sort of you know you you cannot see the value of what you have avoided you know by handling things better but of course but unless you've experienced it so when things go wrong people actually recognize that when they actually when I when we when we don't do that well the cost of that far outweighs the cost of making sure that we're prepared better prepared for the next time it happens yeah well notably one CEO highly respected in the industry you know ended up in yeah in diastrates and west Africa once right I mean it's um yeah one time ago but that's certainly changed that company's communications um the is that is that playbook by the way and I mean this is a function of scale and size but do you you know do you do you use a firm like bronzewick to have that playbook sort of sat it you know build that playbook for you and then they come in you know let's do a quarterly rehearsal on this or always it just how do you like how does

25:26that all work I mean kind of do you run natural hey let's just do a a game day where we're just going to throw up an event at you and we're going to see how it all works with you know the organically are you actually doing real live live live rehearsals instead of speaking absolutely you know absolutely we so we so I mean we we absolutely sit alongside clients when they're doing their live rehearsals we sit in there in their sort of crisis management team or or you know wherever however they structure this or just outside it and we we act as the agency in there we will say run crisis communications workshops so that's that's exactly let's let's let's look at the risks you're facing as a business what are the plausible risks that could turn into full-blown crises for you whether that's financial or employee or reputational or or or or other and then work around what your response is going to be and that kind of really helps actually for management teams to really kind of crystallize okay now we do see the risk we do feel that we're not as prepared as we should be or or in some in some cases it's actually know we're pretty pretty prepared but there are one or

26:31two areas where we just you know the kind of diagnostic almost there are one two areas where we need to strengthen and improve the process it doesn't quite work or it doesn't flow as well as it should there are sort of issues there but but so we absolutely do that from the communications perspective and then that sits alongside the the kind of operational rollout that that other that the companies do themselves in terms of it's fascinating I'm I I a bit of a follow-up of Alice's account on some of this stuff and he he and Tony Blair had that mantra back in the day of what's the what's the inevitable endpoint of this crisis and let's just get there as quick as possible yeah and it would seem to me great advice right we are nice and you use that I mean like the the the black you know again we can and we see this in policies and everything but it's sort of the slow the inevitable sort of slowly rolling on and people fighting it and so forth yeah it's it's it's a balance so because you got you got to demonstrate that I think I think it's the the perception of drift and lack of control you need to demonstrate that you've got a grip on the

27:33crisis and this is really where leadership comes in because you've got to be seen to be leading the firm the company through this crisis and that ultimately goes to the top and if you're not doing that then you can get that sense of drift and confusion about where this is going and and who's in control and who's who's who's trying to avoid blame or the rest of it and fairly and unfairly in some cases but but so you absolutely I think it's one of those essential moments where leadership at visibility is absolutely paramount but it doesn't necessarily mean and and and the danger is that people fall into a trap where they feel that that leadership is demonstrated by just being on all the time by speaking all the time by filling the void and I think that that's a real danger and real risk particularly in in our scale sort of physical crisis and and and where we're asked to go wrong because actually there can be a vacuum of information and you don't know the answer for sure but you have to but you have to demonstrate both grip but also that you are not getting ahead of where the situation actually is and I think it's also really important that you're calibrating your

28:38responses so you are yeah you are you are you are you are doing what you say you're going to do before you go out and touch out yeah you need to and I guess this is a challenge for you guys is where does where does the communications end and the operational activity start you know what I mean it like yeah and where you get that mismatch between the two is where things become unstuck or there's that perception management piece which is don't go sailing you know in a crisis type exam you know all those all those sorts of things exactly it's that is that is that that visible presence of leadership and being I mean it's why you see the prime minister go to a rail crash or something not because they have anything practical they could offer there but because by being there they they demonstrate a that they care be that it's important is on their agenda and see that they can then they can then sort of talk to we are providing everything we can to get this resolved and and and we know your investigations everything which is yeah and again is there's sort of that authenticity gap that can well I find it fascinating right I mean

29:44but these are make-all-break issues right yeah for the organization they can result in your company being bought by someone else or collapsing or actually reinforcing trust in the sector by going through the challenges yeah and you can and you and I think that's a really interesting point because I mean this sounds mercenary and it's something not meant to be but but but sometimes by handling a crisis well it can actually leave you in a stronger position than before because I think I think we're not in the military in businesses where we aim to make money um mystery yeah it's probably one and likewise with governmental relations right I know that's partly adjacent where today you need you cannot afford to not do it and it say it say actually it's a force multiply if you get it right um whereas 20 years ago there just wasn't the same immediacy and and all the you know likewise the pressures to overcommunicators you've alluded to right I mean it's very easy to immediately think about getting on TikTok and that solves the problem

30:47as opposed to actually doing it the right way the other so the second big charge and you know I could I can ask questions about this all day and I'd love to discuss companies but we're not going to um is obviously M&A yeah and this is probably draws as much into shaping the markets perception of the deal that you're trying to do as much though if not more importantly is how you communicate that to your people it's very easy to buy a company and end up disenfranchising the the employees of both um through poor communications um and and lowering the value of the two companies combined right so can you just give us you know what are the nuances of M&A at cucumber communications and you know how does that process work yeah and the and the kind of says this is a big part of what what what I do and and what we're with clients on and I think I think with I mean M&A is it it's a it's a really interesting area because I think there's when you think about it what

31:49what what what what what what it's someone like me trying to help a client solve it's it's it's making sure there's a kind of asymmetry of time and information if you think about it when you're doing a big piece of M&A the chances are that the senior management team their financial advisors their legal advisors have been working on this for months I mean you know and and and they have the strategic rationale every other kind of opportunity a whole series different kind of valuation mixes they've looked at all the risks they've looked at they've they've done the whole job inside out and back to front and there is always a danger that as a result of that there's a kind of um because they have that familiarity that that creates assumptions around what other people will know and what is and what isn't obvious and I think a huge part of what what if someone like me can help a client do or what what what what what communications does is um to help to help okay well are we making these these the kind of rationale for this transaction really clear because if you think if you're if you're announcing this at 7 a.m. in the UK markets are opening

32:53an hour or so later that is not a lot of time to get your head around around this whether you're an analyst or you're a journalist or you're an employee or whoever you are and therefore you need to be answering some some very basic questions very clearly in that say don't why are you doing this particular transaction why are you doing it now how does it fit with or how does it change the your strategy and why does the current does that valuation and that financial rationale makes sense that that all really matters and you've got to get that over very quickly and as you said it's not just your investor that I mean it's obviously hugely important but it's also to your employees and you need to be doing that and and and also to and certain cases it's to government it's to regulate as others and you need to be doing that in a coordinated way and and really you need to be rolling that out pretty much at the same time and so you need to be make sure that your your your management team are appearing at the right moments the right places and they are answering those pretty basic those four pretty basic questions about the transaction very clearly and repeating that and re-issuating that to kind of cross that asymmetry of of of of of information

33:59between them and the rest and the rest of the world and I think that's that you know that as a key part of what where we help and where we help um dancing that through and and obviously the the earlier that communications is involved in that kind of process and they're asking that kind of question really the better because I think that helps in in in in when it's done at its absolute best it really helps um companies and management teams crystallize those ration the rationale for this transaction in a really precise way and and it becomes very compelling indeed how does how early can you get involved and also how usually there's other people swimming around in sort of the support you know the external you know for example lobbyists right in a big major merger that's a key angle um or governmental relationships or you know um there's also I mean uh there's management consults is that do transformation management and so forth like how how how early can you get involved and um and how how are you the

35:04interface often between leadership and some of those external parties how does that bit work you know is it sort of a collaboration it's well it's done best as a collaboration but I think I think where communications is is it provides that sort of interface is is really by providing a you know is it compacted what I was saying right at the beginning that done well good communications is about coordinating and ensuring harmony across those different disciplines whether it's media or government relations its investor relations it's um it's employee engagement whatever it is and making sure there is there is that harmony across it and I think that is where having communications involved early in a in a in transaction it helps ensure that the various different audiences and stakeholders that will be affected by this are getting heard if you like in in in in the in the boardroom and that is not just being drafted from a pure strategic or financial markets perspective it's also being drafted with with with those other stakeholders in mind because of course they all

36:08have a very big impact both on whether or not the deal itself a successful and goes through but also whether deal itself is successful yeah I imagine has quite a long tail on it right because usually long tail yeah two year three year program of reinforcing the why and managing frankly the inevitable part of the deal of the merger is you know is going to impact some of the functional roles that you know will lose head count right and and and kind of I mean I've been gone through a couple of mergers um in my my wife um you know in her companies which you know being fantastic for for you know there's also been a challenges and yeah getting that right you know um but I and I and I think I know I was just going to say I think that's absolutely right because I think the success of the deal is not just about the day of announcement is also about or indeed the day of completion is about the long tail of integration and and a lot of that again is about really really high quality execution to live and and delivery in operations but it's also about making sure that everyone is aligned and clear about what the what what the rationale is for this transaction where

37:12it's taking the company their role in it their purpose and if you can get that kind of alignment across the business or the two businesses that have been put together it makes you know it doesn't straightforward easy process because integration is difficult but it makes it it makes it easier and clearer about where you're going while you're doing things I think I think that's really important yeah and also kind of like a more nuanced view of communications communications isn't about putting a spin on things right it's about actually just direct you know clear creating clarity about purposes and wise and impacts and those might necessarily not be positive right and I think that's probably where some people can become a bit unstuck because there's nothing more annoying than hearing a spin a positive out you know on something that clearly isn't right so there's enough entity bit there as well and I actually want to end up on kind of the individuals and leaders and how they can actually you know we all have we all have you know born on raised with different capabilities in communication and what actually we as

38:14individuals can do to kind of improve and understand more about what communication is but also what it what it isn't the final the third sector I want to focus on and actually we've got an upcoming podcast about this is almost the part one for that part too which is about kind of essentially we're in this weird world we're within trading and and I don't claim to understand much but you know for the most part if you're in the commercial group of a an oil major or a minor or you're in a trading house you you fundamentally understand the opportunity that trading presents in terms of risk management for the company you know risk managing crises but also longer to you know enhance performance enhance earnings incremental returns as well as actually the benefits of better M&A for example by being able to better value things in group I think

39:16we all understand that or the community understands that pretty well outside of that group it can be a real challenge it can be a real challenge to explain to your partner or kids or parents what what exactly a commodity trader is and and that we are not all sort of barbarians at the gate and all this kind of stuff it can also be a but more crucially for this discussion at a B2B level be very hard to explain to the to the ratings a analyst or the stock market analyst why trading isn't a bad thing and also more broadly to the board as well who many of whom of some of these large companies have their only interaction with the trading might be very visible losses on the front page of the Wall Street Journal that happen every five years yeah so it seems like not only there's the physical world of the commodity sector that has a challenge because of its connectivity and sinews in the real world and the real impacts on our day-to-day lives as well as the communities they're operating within but is also this challenge of commodities about commodity

40:22trading is about transforming these items in form place and time and an incredible sums made or lost doing it in in terms of visibility but actually yeah explaining what trading is seems to be incredibly hard it is incredibly hard and I've got I have a few thoughts on on on how in particularly with you know how you communicate something like this which is by its nature quite it has to be confidential you've got a lot of commercial sensitivity riding on the successor otherwise of your your trading strategy and your particular position at any given time and how you approach things and how you do things so there is necessarily quite a high level of commercial confidentiality which you know means that there is always going to be a slightly black box nature to it from the outside perspective I'm maybe a little unfair but I think there is that there's a classic examples right where particularly as a function of US accounting rules

41:25you might be announcing a major loss on a derivative and you're not able to yet explain that that's offset by an enormous yeah an almost positive on the physical trade that you're doing so there's some fundamental barriers there as well not alone that being kind of conceptually very confusing to an outsider yeah exactly and I think so I think there's that and I think there is also as you say there's you know there there is there is some volatility in it so you can see some you can have some astronomically successful quarters and you can have some quarters where they are much less successful or or very significant every four or five years very very unsuccessful and that is not a that's a difficult sort of story to tell to a to a market that likes to hear a story that is sort of steady and consistent and is about credibility and about things building over time and of course again we all work in a commodity sector where which is by its nature cyclical but but you know you can even when even when you're dealing with a cyclical commodity

42:27as a business you can talk about the things that are in your power to control and and and believers you have to pull so you're managing your costs managing your capital allocation thinking about you know managing your portfolio and all the rest of it but but but trading you know and so so I so I think trading can can sort of fit in that in terms of not as a kind of quarterly reporting piece but talking about it in terms of the value it brings as as a capability to the business as a risk mitigation and value enhancing element of the business and and and that side and just try and sort of unpack it in in that way so it's not you know you you you can't really remove the volatility element of the story but but you can help understand that they that there is a very strong underlying capability that sits behind that and that supports the company in in terms of it's every several resilience and strength and also helps it maximize value and and and and find opportunities that it wouldn't be able to go after otherwise but that that's not there doesn't lend

43:29itself to a sort of quarter by quarter reporting basis I would I would argue yeah yeah and then more important well as importantly sorry I would suggest in these successful transformations that many over the last decade physical producers miners refiners processes have gone on is build more robust commercial trading and optimization capabilities and that again is a big lift internally in terms of communications not only to the existing commercial team but also to the other parts of the business because again the kind of natural default setting is you know we don't want this someone turning up in a Ferrari and you know coming in and bulldozer culture and and making sure the framing of that is right so that people do see it as an opportunity and making the organization more robust and and that that feeds back again operationally into compensation into org design into using a great search firm like HC I would argue but also there's a big communications

44:33element to it yeah you know that yeah it's fascinating right I just don't people you know especially especially in a very competitive world people can vote with their feet yeah but it but it also comes back so it comes sort of comes about you know there's there's sort of an old adage in in communications used that the wrong starting point is just to say what do we want to say so it's not about what do we want to say about trading it should be about what what are we what are we trying to achieve with this business what what does it help us do that we couldn't do before where is it going to take us well you know what does it mean if you're all those things if you're answering those kind of questions rather than just sort of it that I think that prompts the right kind of thinking you have to start with get strategy right yeah if you don't have strategy you can't have a communications plan no no and you can't have and and you don't have and and yeah so much of the way humans think is in sort of stories right and narratives and if you don't have a decent plot

45:36in the positive sense oh yeah yeah you don't have a communications plan but I do think there's a lot of work to be done there and I think there's a lot of opportunity there about explaining the role of the why in strategic terms in turn they in externally because we're at a point where most organizations are building these because they see the absolute necessity of it's gone from a a nice to have to a must have yeah that story now needs to extend out to investors shareholders to the broader you know to regulators as well as the current employees in the time I've found this fascinating in the time we have left two questions one would be are there some core tenets that um you know that sort of the I guess along the lines of that adage you just mentioned right it's a key axioms that we should all test ourselves against and know whether we're going down the wrong path and then secondly I want to know what we can do as individuals to to recognize the need for this

46:37even if you're not you know born a great communicator what are some ways you can sort of give yourself an edge but let's start with that first one you know are there what other axioms are swimming around that we should all use as a bit of a litmus test as to whether we've really gotten down the wrong path yeah well I mean I do I do think that what I just mentioned is probably the the one I always remind myself of is why are we trying what are we trying to do and why why is this the right answer to that to that question and once if you if you have clarity over what it is you're trying to achieve and clarity over how you're going to achieve it then the communications of that becomes pretty you know it doesn't become super clear pretty quickly but it becomes much easier because you can stand it up and I think and I think also you know communications is not just as not a substitute for strategy it's also not a substitute for for delivery and operational delivery I mean I think for for for companies that for instance you know have have issues with

47:39the you know over-promising under deliver for the financial markets the temptation is then to continue to put a positive spin on everything they're doing but actually you know they have lost a significant amount of credibility with the market the market is just going to discount everything they're saying until they see evidence to the contrary and until they see evidence to the country for some time that they are beginning to rebuild so so I think thinking of communications as a way to spit yourself out of trouble or to put a positive sheen on something that's negative is absolutely the wrong way to think about it it is a tool it is a it is a an enabler of good strategy it helps you get things done but it but it it's not a substitute for that strategy I mean take another example if you're you know if you're looking at new country entry somewhere and there is you say very little about yourself as a company others will say it for you

48:41and and therefore you know for a trading house you're trying to enter something you know the the stakeholders that matter for you will be looking at whatever information they can find out about you and the danger is that that will have been put out there by third parties who don't I who either have partial information have a different viewpoint or or actively hostile to you yeah and they don't stop existing I can I to be putting you on this you own your own narrative someone owns it for you we talk about a lot in the you know a recruitment campaign starts at the very click great clarity over exactly what they're looking to achieve and then that builds the job description and but also about how you are going to then own that narrative in the communications more broadly so that you give yourself the best shot of getting the right people and that's exactly the same whether it goes you know at all levels of the organization I think it's also very it's very hard as well because the world is so sort of changing at the moment to get way out ahead of yourself you know of yourself as well right I mean I remember

49:43being told by a leader within a commodity house that they were going to be they were going to create the cure for cancer and like and just you know and not through any negative space it was just like hey look at what we're doing in these particular products we're innovating here obviously it never worked out right I mean but it's and but it's a disastrous message as well if you sort of get too too far ahead of your operational capability in your you know anyway yeah and the other I mean I think within HC the one we use quite a bit and people know it know us as sort of embrace the know right is actually just it's very easy as humans especially you know well it's very easy to to overlook the stuff you don't want to see right yeah and and actually being reminding yourself that the more important thing I can do is talk about why this won't happen rather than why it would and the you know the impacts and the ramifications of it

50:45is more a more powerful starting point than sort of the the whole hope is a strategy yeah absolutely and I think I mean it's related to your final point about what we can all do as individuals whether we know whether we have a strong role in communications or not but I think a lot of communications a lot of communications professionals whether in companies and agencies or wherever they are they spent a lot of time about thinking about how the outside world sees them where what is their context and and you know good communications person when they when when you're formulating your your your strategy and your messaging and everything else your thing well how is this going to land externally what if I'm outside this company what are they going to how are they going to read this what are they going to say and am I thinking enough about about not not how I'm seeing it internally but how how they're going to be seeing it externally and and really pushing and and stress testing that and and and questioning your yourself and your position on that until you're really clear that you've got a robust position yeah because it's and it's so much is sort of assumed and we have a saying in Bronswick which is never assume

51:51which can cover a whole range of sins but it's it's really important that you you can't assume that someone will read something in the way that you read it or the door be yeah it's it's tested on the hard audiences right yeah yeah yeah and actually that is very hard to do it's psychologically difficult to put yourself in a situation where you take someone who's not going to be a fertile ground for your message and and and and get them to you know to to test it back um you know do do do people have you know just out of interest you know do do is it more common now for senior executives to start getting communications training earlier yeah I think I think there's there's there is more and more communications training that happens at a level I think you know we talk about very big multi-nationals I think there are sort of leadership strands that identified and you'll be close to this and I am but and management you know future management strands and some of the training they get had a ready to be early stage will be on communications now that can be

52:55media communications as well so particularly as they get more senior in the business but a lot of it will also be about how they how they're communicating with the wider business and internally because if that that's where they will be most visible and the ability to stand up and speak fluently about about the company about the business about what you're doing is absolutely essential to to to that kind of executive success or increasing these success and important to that to the success of the executives and their ability to to sort of translate and and broadcast the strategy so I think it's really we we are seeing more and more and more that I'm I mean across all sorts of businesses yeah which on the flip side I just had a very very successful senior executive you probably might be saying Adam Waterer say that he feels very much that the rise at the rise of Chattamhouse rules the you know the over-concerned of communications departments have ended up stifling the ability of the energy sector to get its message out as well you know we sort of

53:59we live in fear now of you can't upset anyone or you know the and again part of this is because the internet lives forever and one bad tweet you know 10 years ago can derail you know your application we will need to be cognizant of that but there is an argument there as well that in this control of communications particularly as I have experienced it by having CEOs on this podcast right it's got to run through multiple communications teams before it actually the final element gets published and sometimes it can be so watered down that I kind of leave it on the cutting room floor yeah because if you can't say anything you're not saying anything right so well I think I think I think I think a really interesting example of that is you know it's maybe not at the kind of individual level but if you look at the you know the evolution of the the energy transition narrative over the past five 10 years and actually the those companies that were willing to put themselves in a more uncomfortable position at the time sort of 2020 2021 in terms of the

55:01kind of commitments they were willing and able to make around emissions their you know their greenhouse gas emission their their targets for scope one scope two what they're going to do on scope three and things there were some companies that that should made themselves deeply unpopular by saying this is what we can do and this is what we can't do and we'll stick to doing the things that we absolutely can do however unpopular that makes us in the short time because actually we there's a bunch of other things that are outside our control and they're they're due to they're they're they will depend on government policy and government regulation or whatever else it is it doesn't it's not a judgment about whether or not the energy transition is a good or a bad thing or you know or or that we should do and must do something about climate change it's actually what can we actually affect and we are you know we know what we can control and we know what we can't control and we'll focus on things we can't we can't control and by doing that we know that's going to make a sound popular and maybe in the short to medium term but long term it kind of builds on the kind of

56:01whole credibility piece because we do what we say we do and we can deliver on those things and we can't deliver on things that are outside of control so I think they're this is so I think I think I absolutely agree that you know there's always a danger that that communications as towards the conservative side because you know the best way to mitigate risk is by not taking a risk but actually there are examples of companies where where management teams have been and continue to be quite willing to to to to take some difficult decisions and I think that tends to be when I have a very clear view of their strategy and what they're going to be what this business is going to be in 10 20 30 years time yeah and again I think it comes back to it right the energy industry has allowed the narrative to be filled by other people and unless the energy or the resources sector more broadly starts to find its voice and that voice being authentic realistic and framed correctly you know is still going to continue to lose out on key talent you know

57:03is the the offshore oil industry is about to have a cliff in talent as a whole slew of people retire from what have been phenomenal careers vital for the world right we are not in the energy transition yet where we can afford not to have it and you know have had these yeah lucrative phenomenal careers but there's no one behind because outside a few schools in the United States no one is championing a career in engineering in offshore oil and gas which is going to itself be a bit of a problem and I think you could look at what's going you know I accept entirely that and myself included right covid was such a and I don't think we've come over overcome the psychological trauma that it created in all of us in our societies you know that that created a moment of sort of irrational exuberance over some of the change that was going on and yes there were some companies out there that made extraordinary commitments that have really backfired different disenfranchising their employee base and devalue themselves in the market because they couldn't operation to achieve what they said they were going to achieve and there were others that stuck to the knitting

58:07and did a you know and took that a program but are now in a in a good place I think again it kind of comes back to the you know communications is not a strategy communications is not operational excellence but it can have a significant downside if you don't get it right you know it's it's negative delta whatever the correct phrases for kind of these things that don't have if there's no the the upside isn't unlimited to communications but the downside certainly well is until zero I would agree but I would also say that done really well you can also help you get things done as well because you can help enable it can help enable the strategy but it can't you can't substitute the strategy yeah and I think that's really important um hellem to it yeah a huge value as we've identified in surviving a crisis actually getting the value out of the thing that you bought in M&A and then the biggest one for the trading community is how do you communicate out of group about what it is and why you exist you know and ultimately why the talent is more expensive and unique

59:11and all the rest of it what value is it bringing beyond the the the dollar generated within the group you know in a more systemic and structural way the Wall Street or wherever the city can value will I've really enjoyed this when when when should listeners to this podcast reach out to you and Brunswick I think when they they have an an issue or a situation where they feel like having an external third party look at it and give them a view on how that might land with their key stakeholders is always a good point I think I say M&A crisis and and also general strategy and communications where there is an issue that involves your stakeholders different audiences whether that's internal or external well it's probably as you say it's probably also before you have that issue yeah but I'm prepared before you have the issue yes exactly that would be great well it's been absolutely fascinating I'll put links to Brunswick and you in the show notes and

1:00:18you know hopefully we can have lots of conversations offline but never actually need one another and you know hopefully the the sector itself has fewer crises and has every company has a plan to attract the best talent but also communicate to the broader broader world about why commodity trading is the reason the energy prices have stayed low in Europe not a negative thank you Paul I've really really enjoyed the conversation thank you for listening to find out more about HC group our global offices and our expertise in search within the commodities sector please visit www.hcgroup.global