Crypto coalition pushes back on new rules & South African cherries gain access to China’s market

0:00And now the money show with Stephen Curtis on 7.02. Let's walk the told the money show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you by absent business bank connect with the team that understands the lay of your land at Agri Business at absent.co.cd8 minutes after six. Good evening. Welcome to the program. I'm Stephen Curtis a day market to go and remember I'm afraid for oil prices going up above a hundred dollars a barrel. It's been the driving issue really in our economy since March or so. Just remember how things were looking before then. And now of course things have changed so dramatically and unfortunately I've made this point so many times. I'm kind of bored with it and yet it is so important. If you look at what's happening in the straight of a moment, I think we're going to be here for a while. At some point investment decisions change. We start to move away from oil in some ways. The central energy fund today saying that it's going to restart the separate refinery in Durban. It was really closed in 2022 after the big

1:03flooding there. Not entirely sure why it wasn't reopened. I mean we obviously need more than two refineries going, especially when there's such a shortage of diesel refining capacity around the world at the moment. It would produce at first around 400,000 barrels a day, move that up to 650,000 barrels eventually. I mean that would double our refining capacity and that would be really I think a big story. So yeah, glad that someone's doing something that I mean obvious points. It's going to take a long time and should maybe have been done before. I realize that getting a refinery going is a big thing. But the big story moving markets, well above a hundred dollars a barrel. If you're driving diesel at the moment and I'm afraid to say I'm one of those who are most of the time you're kind of crying a little bit because the price is just insane. We'll talk cryptocurrencies in a moment. The new big sort of coalition of the cryptocurrency industry very worried about proposals by the Reserve Bank and the National Treasury that would really bring cryptocurrencies, stablecoins and everything kind of under the

2:07remit of the Reserve Bank's current regime for managing foreign exchange for cross-border payments and would really ban stablecoins entirely. Now lots of other places, stablecoins are entirely legal and I think the enforcement's always going to be a problem. We'll speak to a representative of the cryptocurrency industry. You'll speak to Emil Fundalinder from easy crypto in a few moments. Big news about our cherries. Yes, the fruit. You have them on top of an ice cream. Well you did. Maybe when you're a little younger now you have them in something exotic and tasty. I hope that cherries are going to be sold in China to be laying cringes. The agricultural economists will speak to him about that in a few moments. Growth point had their results out today. They are very a little worried I think about their office portfolios in heart-enged there. They can see rates still quite high. And no but SaaS is the growth point CEO who speaks to Norbert in about half an hour. And then the Zoukou and Botte is the chief financial officer at airport companies out of Africa. Their results are today as well. Good to hear from you.

3:07O-W-1-W-830702-021-44605-670 and voice notes please. 07272-1702. The money show with Steven Hredes live on 92.7 and 106 FM streaming on the primary D. Plus app and DSTV channel 856. So interesting to go through some of the results from the airports company South Africa and obviously they're making a lot more money in some ways. They've been higher passenger numbers so that would make sense. They've made quite a lot of money from passengers, from airlines the way that works. They've also made more money from retail so I presume they've been able to put up rents. They're investing hugely over the next few years. Cape Town International is going to get a new international terminal. Suppose my question rarely is what for you absolutely works at our big airports, the one zone by access. So I think Oushaka, Cape Town, or Tumbo, I think some of the others. What absolutely works?

4:09Must never change and what would you change? If they're going to spend a lot of money, what would they change? I would try and find, I don't know how you would do it, the quickest possible route from getting your luggage to e-hailing because that's the way people go to airports now. The parking is so expensive, you usually will do e-hailing. So for me, that's the thing that I use the most at an airport. Cape Town relatively easy, I kind of know the route because I live in Jobig, I haven't used the e-hailing because of the heart rate. I haven't used it that often but the one time that I did use it last year, I had to ask about 50 people the way to get there. It was so confusing. Maybe I'll be better the second or third time around but that would be my thing is to make the e-hailing section easier to find. Maybe they've improved the signposting. Maybe I was just tired or something. But what would you change at our airports? What would you absolutely keep? Please 072702 1702 702 702 Sivan, it's on the money show. 6 to 8 p.m.

5:11May remember a couple of months ago, there were proposed new regulations from the National Treasury and the Reserve Bank to regulate the cryptocurrency industry and really cross-border payments. And I thought there was a bit of a muted reaction from the cryptocurrency industry at the time. Now a group of people in the crypto space, they've got together, they're forming a new coalition against the regulations. They call their group catastrophe. I think that tells you everything you need to know how they feel about it. So under the proposed changes, cross-border currency, cross-border transfers in crypto would be dealt within the same way as an EFT through a bank. The institution moving the money would have to report it. There would be other regulations. It would be illegal to understand the proposals to use stable coins. You wouldn't be allowed to use payments based on blockchain to cross-borders. Amel Fundalender is the head of operations at Easy Crypto. They're a part of this coalition. Amel, good evening and thanks for your time. I mean, clearly you believe these new regulations would be a disaster for your industry. Why do you believe that?

6:15Yes, well, I see them. Thank you for having us. It's great to be here and to talk some pending regulations. Yeah, they do big things about these different drafts that we are currently sort of commenting on. The fact that it's excluding South African entities from cross-border payments or cross-border crypto activity, and then the second thing that we're looking at specifically is it's making self-culted become essentially a one-way street where you can take crypto off of these licensed cats, but you can't bring them back, which causes a lot of different problems. So we just form this coalition to see if we can put in our comments before the closing date on the 30th of September. So, I mean, I realize some of this is quite technical and for people outside the industry, you haven't been following it. But in the end, to ban stablecoins when other

7:21jurisdictions I understand are not doing that, and it's very difficult to enforce anyway. I mean, that must be a major issue for you and to have a situation where you can't move money as easily and quickly as the way that you do now would have an obvious economic impact. I mean, is that the basis of your argument? Yes, of course. So, the stablecoins have made a lot of things so much faster and easier for money-trone firms and even access. So, to block sort of a new development or a new financial technology just doesn't sit right with us. So, I mean, there's real concerns with what we're looking at and there's capital flights and there's money laundering and there are financing. So, we understand that stablecoins need to be licensed the same way as sort of tradition of money is regulated. And that's not what we are trying to move against.

8:22I think we're just trying to ensure that the design of these drafts are actually implemented the way that we can still continue to use the new technology. Do you believe there's a way to make sure that cross-border payments into and out of South Africa through crypto can be regulated in a safe way that stops the financing of terrorism and money laundering and at the same time doesn't harm the industry. I mean, do you have proposals to make in that regard? Yes, I mean, us as cats, we all we all are licensed already and we report to the FCA, we report to the FIC soon we'll be reporting to SARS with cough. So, regulation is not that big of an issue and on top of that we recently, the part couple of months, implemented Directive 9 which is also a way to get personal information for any and all corporate transactions including your platform. And on top of that there's this technology in the blockchain world as well.

9:23And for example, there's chaneluses that tracks all of these on-chain transactions and sort of checks where these funds are coming from, where they're moving, who they're associated with. So there's a lot of great tech to monitor these transactions easily and ensure that we get the same or even better than what the current review was with additional payments. Okay, I mean, I thought the whole point of cryptocurrencies was that no one could trace it. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely ways that you can move around your crypto, but for us moving the crypto onto platform, we know our customers are and then things like chaneluses, I mean, I think the initial point of crypto was to make it untraceable but regulations has to come in some way and so people both the tech to be able to trace some of these things and at least maybe not know exactly who the person is, but check if it's connected to any sort of terrorism or money laundering or anything like that. Okay, so Amel,

10:27as I understand the reserve bank's argument, and I think the Szechy Chanyachol, the governor, has made this point a couple of times and I think even again last week, that cryptocurrency cross-border transfers need to be treated in exactly the same way as financial transfers in cash through a bank, right? And the argument that the reserve bank will say is that these new regulations are simply enforcing the law. Now we can argue that it's a law from the 1930s, before an exchange act in all this and I understand that, but I don't think that helps us. What as you understand the regulations, is this actually not treating cryptocurrency cross-border payments in the same way as other cash transfers under the law because it's discriminating against you. I mean, I think if you can make that argument, you probably wouldn't whatever legal battle is coming our way on this. Yeah, and that's exactly the argument we are making. We are not trying to fight against what they are trying to regulate. We are trying to work with them to do this properly

11:29and all points that they were trying to make for the treasuries been trying to make is that we need to regulate on activity based. So the whole thing we're trying to push is we need to regulate crypto transactions the exact same way that we do the regional finance, but currently that's not happening. They are just sort of simply excluding cross-border activity for crypto, which goes against their own philosophy. Emil Fundalinda, thank you very much indeed. Head of operations at EZ Crypto. End of the month, they've got to make their submissions. Can be interesting to see how this one plays out 20 minutes after six. The money show with Stephen Krutters. On 7.02. 7.02. The money show with Stephen Krutters is brought to you by Abset Business Bank. Connect with a team that understands the lay of your land at agribusinessatabset.co.cde. Well, the first time cherries produced here in South Africa are going to be sold in China a protocol signed this week between our agriculture minister, Billy O'Cump and the Chinese government in Beijing.

12:31It is part of the big framework on economic partnership for shared development. It gives us access to the Chinese market with a 0% tariff to be learned. Kunja is an agricultural economist to be learned. Good evening. This is a big thing, I think, for our stone fruit industry. How important is it going to be? Good evening to you, Stephen. The listener at home. I was a pleasure having me. I think the beginning of this year, Stephen, we did speak, I think, also a few talking about South Africa and China having a protocol on stone fruit. Then now we are talking about cherries. It seems like things are finally getting away towards the Chinese market as we have been having issues with the higher tariff and so forth. This one is actually a bigger one again because if you are looking to China, China is the biggest import of cherries in the world, which cherries imports only for $325, amounting to about 20 billion. Sorry, actually not a fruit sorry.

13:34And then cherries specifically, they are around $3.4 billion and that is actually even bigger than our biggest export, the insects and so on. It is a significant opening of the market for us, even though cherries as a point of central Africa still remain a little bit smaller, but we have excited about it because it is going to open up our certain terms of raw production and then of course exports and processing devils. So, I mean, we have seen our other fruits going into China for the first time. Lemons quite recently. Agriculture sector has been growing quite nicely. Could this entire agreement, the framework agreement on economic partnership for chair development, actually be a really big boost for agricultural industry over the next 10 years? It's very likely, Steven, because I mean, if we have to look in terms of our products, our industries, you know, that are very much export-oriented from South Africa. We are seeing them almost all of them now, they have transitioned to then being exported, you know, in terms of

14:36operations. So, know with that, you know, and also having to see growth in our production, you know, big kind of markets like, you know, the bigger markets like India and China, which is the two markets within the bridge that South Africa has been focusing on quite extensively. We are happy to see all these big, you know, these are opening up a little bit and of course, it is going to certainly stimulate, you know, the markets, you know, and of course the in-ness and effect are generally, you know, growing and of course creating jobs with that. There will be different ways to understand the timing of the stability. But this big framework, I mean, China's given nearly all of Africa access to its market. There's one country that recognizes that one, therefore, doesn't get it. But isn't this because of Trump? I mean, the Trump administration, we were so worried about those tariffs. China is getting countries is using trade, using the Trump's trade policy against them to open themselves up. And our agricultural industry is probably going to benefit more from China than it loses from Trump.

15:39You know, the good things about trade still and the stimulus that as much as, you know, people will have intentions, you know, or at least have some, but you let intentions about rates, generally trade will always take its course. And I think that would also what you just said in terms of what the US administration currently has been trying to do. It looks like it is kind of big firing a little bit because even if you had to look internally in the US, you will see a lot of some other companies, some are even moving from poor actually enough certain commodities because the trade and the tariffs that have been put there, they have quite rattled up the global space. I might say that. And then with that, a lot of countries including South Africa, we are seeing some beautiful benefit in there, including these settlements now because since those tariffs we have been so rigorous in pushing for other markets and the Chinese are again, they have actually been coming for us. And also, you know, so long ago India is doing the same. So all in number of other countries, they have really been benefiting. But again, Steven, you know, what is important,

16:39again, is to note that even with the U.S. I can tell you our trade data is off the first six months of the year, as much as we are a little bit declining, we're actually falling in terms of what's to the years. There's been a bit of increase in the COTA2 compared to COTA1. So meaning, as much as the U.S. as a market is being rich to set, but the markets are to much the market once because these products give the rate for the countries at a different period. So therefore, the U.S. cannot really run away from the markets that we're ready for, I think it's beautiful. This is not cost-free for us though, right? And to be there, please talk me through the economics on this because you're the economist and I'm not, but we have a trade off too. So yes, we're exporting more fruits to China. Great. But we're also importing more cars from China, and that's part of the same deal. Now, this is when Steven, you know, we get to be, you know, generally we'll say, we need to be careful in terms of all these good deals that are coming across because for one,

17:40we have industries that are very crucial for us in terms of creating jobs, sustaining industries that are already been there, and then some industries that have been under pressure for a number of things, number of reasons. So therefore, once you are getting to these, you know, it is important that we get into these agreements, Eric Koshias, you know, Eric Koshias in mind, fully in terms of their repercussions because remember, you know, this kind of deals, they somehow gets to be reciprocated, reciprocated, meaning we need to give me something, and then I'm going to give you something that's how these things are going at the moment. So therefore, we need to be careful when it comes to that. But I think at the moment, at least for the side of the benefits is consent. We are really been benefiting, especially from the agriculture sector, but then when you are to move the other industries, most firms, the sugar in us is dealing with issues from the other end, and then there's a portion on the other end, you know, they so much that needs to be considered so that whenever we are making such a deal, we really know that, you know, what you are getting ourselves into, and this absolutely applies to the entire continent because we still have countries that are still developing that cannot

18:43compete to deliver that to Chinese and other developed countries are producing their products. To be in congep, thanks so much, really appreciated the agricultural economists on the money show. The money show. The market. The market. The market is portfolio manager at Ranswiss, Vivgud evening. I made the point earlier today, probably going to be remembered for oil going up past $100 a barrel again. Oh yes, I mean, I did think that when the like the ceasefire was announced, it was a like an unlikely event that this was going to be the end of it because there's just a big gap between what the Americans need and the Israelis kind of want and what the Iranians want. Iranians want basically a guarantee that they won't be attacking. And the last time they did a deal with Obama, basically they were attacked as we know, you know, just a few years later when Trump got into power. It's also, this is a different Trump Trump basically as all of us, the Israelis last year. So from their point of view, they don't really know what the deal could be. That's going to give them a guarantee. And from the American and Israeli point of view, the they don't want Iran to get to, you know, nuclear material. And if you think about

19:44the fact that you may have given stuff away to the Obama administration, but this year they were differently or by this year they's definitely significant amounts of material plus have some people have to make multiple bonds in Iran at the moment. Not quite enriched enough, but on the way there. I think it's quite difficult to see what the deal can be between the two parties. Growth point today, they're their results out doing very nicely at the V&A waterfront in Cape Town, who speaks to them in about 10 minutes. But I think I'll little worried, perhaps, about the office problem, the office issue in hunting. Yeah, look, I've been appointed them. They do have seven year low invasions in Africa, you know, until 7.2% or so. That's obviously a positive for the company. As you mentioned, you know, to the V&A waterfront, let's go to the big deal for them. I do think that, you know, we are seeing some questions about whether or not we are going to get back to the full, you know, you know, to pre-COVID, you know, leveled off, you know, work effectively,

20:45and that partially work from home. And I think that is something that's done at the longer term, will have a change. High proposed ad results out more in the shopping mall space. They seem to be doing quite nicely in some places. Yeah, let's go. They're looking for a better growth opportunities. I said about phone major priorities, badly. Maybe show retail offerings that connect you to the marketplace, communities, diverse benefits, geographical focus, and the right foot, you know, to go to together, or business and skills to get a healthy balance. It's quite, you know, I would think, what media they were quite big in terms of their offerings out there. In terms of the actual immunological of the company, you know, just a bit of income per share with up to 11.7% kind of the up end of guidance. And for the next year, expect 79% again. As southern summer occupancy rate was a bit higher, part of that because of the big regneter. Yeah, I look at that. It's all black, it really helped them out a bit here. Toilester, a penny total income was up to 1.9% to about 7.2%. If you were down, it's also up, you know,

21:52quite nicely. Dividends were also increased. They did say that, you know, toilester, many, you know, conferences and such, it did help them. The one thing that they are saying that they are worried about going forward is of course, what's going to be happening with regards to your headwinds in terms of a few shortages, in high-fuel prices, so on, in toilester, the bullet is conflict in some of the operations in the seashell. And then the dollar yen situation, Scott, percent, another intervention today. Yeah, look, I mean, dollar yen at the moment is sitting at just about $153 to the, you get to the dollar, rather. And it's been hitting the 160 level. It's gone past one before. It's significantly, it's a very significant intervention by the US, like a lot of other surgo, at the Japanese as well. And the US sees me working together with Japan to make sure that we don't breach that $660 in the dollar level. The question is, can this last? I mean, normally we're a country like Japan, for instance, was trying to protect its currency. There's a little bit to how much it can do, because it has limited dollar reserves, of course. But with the actual produce of the US dollar,

22:53that's the US, the A, of course, a stepc to help them out. It's not quite certain if they are will be able to basically overcome these bond market vigilations. That makes it, I do think, give the US, try to integrate over a longer term, a real fail. The fact that the United States, the Japanese currency, used to be weak and it is right now. They've governed it. Thanks very much indeed, portfolio manager at RAN Swiss, just after 630. 7.0.2. 7.0.2. 3.0.3. 4.0.3. As on the money show. 6 to 8 p.m. 16 minutes to 7 will growth point properties reporting. It's distributable income per share at 4.3% in the end of June. Basic earnings per share are very nicely up nearly 40%. The share in the VNA waterfront in Cape Tom, obviously that doing incredibly well for them. The group, I think, might be a little worried about their office properties in the Houting. Norbert Sass is the, Norbert Sass said, outgoing CEO, outgoing interim CEO. You were supposed to already have retired. Good evening. Thanks, Stephen. Your outgoing interim might sound like a good option. Actually, my former

23:59retirement is only 31 December, but I had handed over the range to Estienne as of the first of July. And besides, he had medical procedure and he's recovering at home. So in the interim, I'm sort of covering again as groups, here until he returns, hopefully, in a few weeks time. Okay, now that makes sense. Your office vacancy rate in Houting is still 18.6%. Some of those vacancies, I think, have been there for a while. Are you worried you might just never feel them? Stephen Yard is a concern. And I guess, if you look at it, in perspective, we are probably overweight, office properties as a group, not only in South Africa, but even in Australia and Eastern European businesses, very office heavy. The particular office in and of itself is not a bad asset class. And certainly, the

24:59offices in the Western Cape and case it in, in South Africa, doing particularly well at the moment, given the vacancy factors of drop below 5% there. What a friend, I think, we've got below 1% vacancy. So it's really a very specific two-third of knowledge within Houting. Generally speaking, those nodes have also not benefited from, let's call it, infrastructure maintenance and ongoing investment in infrastructure. So they become less desirable. It would also be to suggest that the work from home dynamic isn't still at the play. There is still that dynamic. But at the end of the day, if you're in a market where you have deteriorating infrastructure and you haven't had any real, call it meaningful economic growth for many years, then it is going to be a challenge. And we've seen it even more recently in

26:04this most recent valuations. We've seen anywhere between 8% and 10% increasing valuations in office properties in Houting and sorry in Cape Town and case at end. And we've got negative valuations in Houting. So it's a challenge for us. And it's something that we obviously have been addressing very actively over the last couple of years. And it will continue to remain an area of focus for, at least the next couple of years, as we try and get out of those specific nodes. Your net property income at the V&A waterfront, I mean it was up nearly 11%. I mean, that development is doing incredibly well and there's more expansion to come. Yes, very much so. And I mean, at a bottom line contribution level, the waterfront increases contribution by 19%. Just sort of a billion-odd round contribution from the waterfront. That was a bit skewed with some one of residential profits. We had a phenomenally successful residential scheme there called Five Dock Road which sold out and we

27:09made some really good profits on that and we were sharing that with shareholders. And so, but yeah, this year we also were successfully in obtaining an additional 440,000 square meters of right. If you add that to some of the rights that we still had from the original basket of rights that we had, we bought the waterfront back in 2011. We've got well over 500,000 square meters of developable rights which gives a development pipeline to Marmy for at least the next 10 to 12 years and probably an investment run rate of circuit two and a half or Bill and a year for the next 10 years. So it's very exciting. It is an extremely unique asset given that it's so multi-faceted and there's hardly a property type that you can think of that's not present in that precinct. So, very exciting. You say it's still important to invest in the transport and infrastructure network around

28:11it now. Nor would I live in Joeburg, but even I know you do not want to be in a car near the water front on a weekend. I mean, what kind of investment would you like to see in transport there? Yeah, so look, I think we would be very quick to argue that whilst the waterfront traffic is a concern and certainly right now we are also a worse enemy because there's a fair bit of activity, development activity going on there and some of it is infrastructure. So we literally having to dig up some of the roads and putting new water pipes that are 25 years old in needed placement. But the traffic concern or problem in Cape Town is a much broader problem than the waterfront. It's actually outside the waterfront. You can't get out of the waterfront because Batonfrust Street is jammed up and the motorway is jammed up. So it's a much bigger problem. We are hopeful that looking and hearing some of the plans coming out of the city that in time

29:15there will be some additional road infrastructure put in place that will alleviate some of those problems. But notwithstanding, I think the challenge as it relates to traffic in and around the the demand for space in the waterfront is as insatiable at the moment, from an office perspective, from hotel, developer from hotel perspective, Rezzi and even on a retail front. So if you can create the correct and the environment with all the amenities that the waterfront office, you know, people are going to look beyond the traffic challenges and the work around that leave early come on late, whatever the story is because it is such a wonderful environment. So you retire formally at the end of the year. You'll be handing the reins back to Estian soon. You've been running the company for a long time and no, but thank you for always being

30:18available for us on the money show. We really appreciate it. You must be looking forward to the next chapter. I am as much as I'm sort of a little bit apprehensive and sad, you know, given the history. Equally, I guess, you know, slightly excited, a little bit excited about what other opportunities might be, you know, out there. I've never, for 26 years, I've never been out there or available for, any other opportunity given growth, when I guess it was, was my baby. And it will be interesting to see, you know, obviously I do want to enjoy some of my retirement as well as I want to go to the next executive role, but finding a slightly better balance and maybe a couple of other interesting opportunities could be quite exciting. I'm sure something will come along. Norbert, thank you. Norbert Sass is the outgoing interim CEO at growth point.

31:21You're listening to the money show with Stephen Curtis brought to you by Apsa Business Bank, connect with the team that understands the lay of your land at AgriBusinessatApsa.co.cd. Six minutes now to seven the time. Well, airports companies are at Africa reporting during their financial year to the end of March. They saw only 98% of the passenger load they had before the pandemic. Despite tourism into South Africa being out quite significantly, their EBITDA was down slightly, but their profit rose to just under two billion round. That's a revenue of 8.8 billion round. La Zucca Mbautia is the chief financial officer at Agssa. La Zucca Good evening and thanks for your time. Your revenue from passenger and landing fees was up 15.2%. What drove that increase? Was it just more passengers or was it also actually you putting up your fees significantly perhaps? Yeah, good evening, just given and good evening to the listeners at all. Thank you for inviting

32:22us. Given you are correct, the main driver for passenger revenue who has really underpinned by growth in traffic, particularly in the international space. If we look at our network of airports, the Cape Town International Airport to be specific, that really, spectacular performance when it comes to international traffic or our combo, also both to our performance with our domestic airport. And their smaller regional airports also perform quite well. So quite a bit closer to those results. So it remains, our performance has been made, I'm mainly driven by growth in traffic wide 98% not yet at pre-COVID-19. La Zucca, I mean, you run airports, but you also run shopping centers. I used to say that as a joke, but you know, your retail revenue is really important. I think your retail revenues are about about 11%. I mean, how do you get such a big increase? You don't necessarily make more money from

33:28each new passenger going through a coffee shop, but you're getting more money from somewhere. Yeah, well, you're sport-to-end, right? Our non-ironological portfolio, that's the jargon that he used for that side of business. It really is a world-diversified portfolio, which creates the needed robustness against any shocks. We are seeing good growth in the retail space that corresponds one to traffic, food traffic that you see our airports to your point earlier. We do actually look at our airports as shopping centers that align with our ever-topolis in a strategy. The other portfolio as well have actually performed better. You're advertising, as well, performed much better, registering a 24% here on your growth with more traffic, you know, the opportunities to advertise. We are seeing signs, of course, across this particular airport. We're quite pleased because it's a strategy that we've been driving for

34:28billions to dear risk us from overreliance on the aeronautical, which is the passenger's extrafty-related revenue. The aeronautical side, so I mean, there's a lot you can control, you can control it our airports, and a lot you can't. You can't control the issues at air traffic navigation services, and that leads to delays, and that costs people money. You can control things like sky bridges that we walk across to get into the plains, right? Have you been investing in the services you give to airlines to control what you can control and make sure they can stick to their schedules? Yeah, I mean, we actually do. In fact, the process of selecting or rather concluding our carepex infrastructure program is done in partnership with airlines. So we invite airlines. We all have had to have to have to have to have to have to which projects they would like us to implement. In fact, the airline, the air bridges that you're referring to,

35:31we're actually part in the top of the priorities, and we are well-independent to start that process of procuring, you know, the number, it's a long list of infrastructure that specifically speaks to what our airlines require. So you are actually investing in improving the services you give to them? Certainly, certainly. In fact, we are measured, we are regulated by an independent body that sits at the department of transport, and one of the key indicators of our performance is the efficiency factor. And embedded in the efficient factor is how we don't save us our airlines in terms of speed, in terms of security. I mean, the longer the storm, those are really some of the key KPIs that our airlines are most interested in. You're planning huge investments that our airports over the next few years. I mean, lots of money. How different is it going to be to go through our tumbo or Cape Town International in 10 years time? Cape Town International is getting

36:34a new terminal. Look, the idea really is to spend as little time as possible in our terminals through advanced security investments, for instance, part of our investment that you're referring to speaks to elevating our infrastructure, pertaining to security, smart detection equipment, where you don't have to open your bag when you pass through the checkpoints. And that will then fast track the process of actually security checks. And the other, the longest of some of these infrastructure that I've managed to really speak to customers every so how will our airports look like in the next 10 years? I would say probably if not better than Dubai, but wow. Wow. That's really our interest in really. So our customer is really in the center of our strategy when it comes to the investment that you have lined up. All right, Lezoukou. Thank you

37:37very much indeed. Lezoukoum bought. Yeah, it's the chief financial officer at Accent. And the power with Dubai, he says, if it's going to happen, I did ask earlier, what would you absolutely keep it out of airports? What would you celebrate at our airports? What would you change? 072721702, you have the money show 7 o'clock. 7 minutes after 7 well, plenty coming up in the next little while on the money show. In business unusual this evening, superior and loyal already on hold for you about how we spend too much time relying on text, email, WhatsApp and basically when I say text, that don't mean a text. I mean text writing. We don't spend enough time hearing each other's voices actually talking. I have

38:39a big believer in this. I have to say I'm one of those people. If I've got something, even the slightest bit complicated, I phone the person and I say, let's just, I'll be two minutes, let's just talk. And I don't like to give them notice either. I mean, when I was young, at the phone rang, it was very exciting. All the whole family rushed to answer it. Now I'm supposed to give young people notice that I want to call you in half an hour. Are you kidding? Come on, seriously. No, no, no, no, no. Wendy knows she's got a great story about one of these account sort of store account issues that someone had. And in Delecumalor, he found a CEO at CUMALOR COUP, artist on Troponereal, Jony's done so many different things. I will speak to him. Started out studying accountancy, really looking forward to speaking to Andelecumalor. Yes, I know he's worked in the radio space. That's because he's a wise and clever man. I will speak to him here as your shapeshifter this evening. Good to hear from you. 001-0030702-021-44605-67 and voice notes on 07-27-021-702.

39:43The money show. Business unusual. We have to look at some of the things that have changed over the last sort of 15 years. One of the biggest for me is how in the past, if there was almost anything you had to say to someone, you would call them. And when you called them, you wouldn't end up just talking about the one thing. You would talk about other things. Not just how are you house the family, house the weather, how the cattle, all of that. You would also end up sparking something. And that would lead to something else. But you'd also have a sense of the person. Now, you kind of send someone a WhatsApp. You'll have a whole days worth of conversation over WhatsApp. And it can all be very technical and boring. Superior Moeal, the organisational behaviour specialist, has some views on the Superior Good evening. Do we need to hear each other? Here each other's voice is really a little bit more. Yeah, Stephen, it's such an interesting thing because, in fact, I was just facilitating a stuff connection recently. And where employees really could hear their leaders give updates about what is happening in the business. And some of the things I was saying, they're quite tough.

40:48And even when they were answering questions, you could tell some of these questions are not easy questions, right? And even the answers were not the answers that the employees wanted. And one of the things that interested me after that is employees saying, you know what? Those, we didn't get what we wanted. We didn't get the answers that we wanted. But the fact that someone came and stood in front of us and explained when we heard their voice, their hesitation, how they've grappled with the things that they're telling us. It meant so much far more than when they were sending an email. So it turns out we really are not listening to each other a little bit more and we should. Is it because instead of them thinking of the CEO, and you don't know what the CEO even looks like sometimes, you're thinking of the person who stood in front of you and gave you this bad news? Yes, absolutely. I think that's a big part of it, right? It humanizes the person. And because there are certain things that you can hear, you can hear when the person is in front

41:53of you, that warmth, that feeling, that content, that that you realize that this was not an easy decision even for this person. You're just realizing that the person is actually human rather than the email that not only goes and remember those emails that come from the CEO, they actually do exactly what you said is their CEO. And for me, it's very difficult to be empathetic to their CEO because this person that you see is just an inbox telling you this has changed and this has changed. But once you hear a actual human being, but you thought maybe they didn't even think about this, you realize that their human and a poor people should cut them something like. I mean, I've often found if there's something difficult I need to say to someone, if I need to say no to someone, and I spoon them and I say, look, these are the thoughts that I went through. And it's better than just a WhatsApp saying, I'm sorry, this isn't going to happen.

42:53If you just say, I looked at this, it won't work because of this. I looked at that, it won't work because of this. I looked at this, but that won't work. And if I do that, yes, it could happen, but then these would be the other consequences. The person almost thanks you for saying no. They do. In fact, you remind me of a study, Steven, and the researchers actually called this study, the humanizing voice. So it was a study in 2017, tried that kind of an EPSLE, looked at people sharing versus reading opinions they disagree with. So what they did in this particular one, participants were asked to write something to the person and raise their argument about why something should not happen. And then they were asked to tell that person through a voice, exactly what you are saying. And it's interesting that when people, the reasoning, when they had their voice, it humanized the voice, right? It made it absolutely

43:54possible for the person to understand where you're coming from. And so one of the things that we're learning, and I think you've figured that out a long time, go Steven, is that, text may even be acceptable when it's you're saying the good things. But when you have to disagree, when you have to explain, when it's something complicated, when it's something that you disagree with picking up that phone is really, really important. Whether it's at work, you're talking about we cannot increase salaries, or whether it's a personal relationship where you disagree with somebody, it's always better when they hear from you. I mean, there's a thing that we do when we're looking at whether we want to give someone a job, is we have a face to face interview, we hear from them. Now it may not always be in person nowadays, but you still want to hear from them. That must tell us something about why this is important. You are spot on Steven. In fact, the same research as did, it was rather an Epsley, they are earlier work in 2015, they did a similar study, it was professional

44:56recruiters and people were evaluating job candidates. And they did a quick experiment. So on the first experiment, they asked people to pitch why they are good for their jobs. So they had to read transcripts containing certain weights. And on the second group, they met with those candidates and they made sure that the candidates used the exact same things that was said on the transcripts. And it's very interesting that the candidates whose voices were heard were judged as more competent, more thoughtful and more intelligent. And these evaluators were more interested in hiring them. So it's very clear that we even hear people, we hear that people are even more intelligent when we hear their voice. So this tells us something about the recruitment process that when you only get a CV from somebody, you're not really getting the entire story. When you really want to evaluate somebody getting on that call, even if it's not in person, just maybe on video

46:02with the person's voice, you're able to make up your mind more intelligently than when you only rely on text. Do we need to keep remembering this? I mean, I think there's a generational difference. When I phone younger people, they're amazed. They don't know, they almost don't know what to do. I find older people actually will often say, ah, thank goodness, a call, hooray. I don't so far. I actually had a friend who said to me, thank you for picking up the phone. And I was like, what are you talking about? People actually don't pick up phones anymore. It is a generational thing. I think there's something about the social anxiety that we have and the fact that, and I think we shouldn't also underestimate that the number of people calls people get from unknown numbers. I think it's making this particular conversation. There's no ones there that we need to think about. But there is a bit of a generational thing. There is something to say about the social skill that we are using and the ability to speak for the sake of speaking. So, as you

47:06were saying, even when people speak on the phone, they don't really get to the point is picking as we want them to speak. You speak about anything else. There's that of weakness where we started in one end and we are in another. That's how you build connection. But there's a different, a different generational, um, in-eal to it where the younger people are like, I don't understand why you're calling me. Mm-hmm. So, Peter and Moe, there's so much to chew on to talk about. To think about. Thank you. Have you organisational, behaviour, specialist? You see, if you listen to the money show, you already knew it's good to talk. Good to listen. 17 minutes after seven. The money show. Consumer ninja. 18 minutes after seven. Well, we're worth store cards. I don't have one myself. I know plenty of people who do. There are many people who make sure they never owe a saint on them. And yet, it's now, it seems, are being punished just for having the card. And this is also having an impact on their credit score. So, there've been two quiet changes. And this has had a big impact when he knows it is your consumer ninja. Wendy,

48:09good evening. What's happened? What changed? My, Stephen, so a couple of things changed. Some background. Their National Credit Act came into force in 2007. And it allowed companies that have, that offer store cards to their customers. It allowed them to charge a monthly service fee. Right? But a big chunk of Woolworth customers who had opened their accounts before 2007, were simply never charged that fee. So Woolie's exempted them. And, and that went on until two years ago. So, 2024 July, suddenly the company changed tax and it started tack rather and it started charging the monthly service fee on those cards. It was 47 ran 50 at the time, which was then even the highest in the market. The cap is 60 ran, by the way. And most companies, I think true, was something like 12 ran a year. It's, it's, they're mostly much lower. But anyway, so there was a huge pushback. You can imagine these people who had had their

49:13accounts since before 2007 never had this fee. And there was this huge pushback. Okay. And then last year, there was just, there was a, they just put it up a little bit. And then this year, from 1st of July this year, now we've had a new wave of outbreak of outrage because what they did from the 1st of July is they put it up by 250 sets. And now sitting at 52 ran 50, by far the highest in the market as service fees go. But then what they did was, up until 1st of July this year, if you had a zero balance on your account as you needed to, or you had a credit balance, or it was dormant. A lot of people are hardly ever used their cards. That didn't matter. And up until 1st of July, you were not charged the service fee. So many people who have the habit of paying off the balance, owing in full every month, have never known this thing of a service fee. So you wouldn't really be using the account. You would be using it

50:13kind of month by month, but you would not have, you would not be getting any credit on it really. And now suddenly you were charged, if you weren't charged before. Yeah, and quite a hefty one at that. So when I first queried this with all with in July, the company told me all financial services accounts in cooperating costs, whether as zero balance is retained or not. These include providing and maintaining the credit facility, account administration, technology, digital services, statement, security and customer support. So the argument is that your account, whether you're using it or not, is costing us money to keep open, whether you spend on it or not. So that's that. And it's not going down very well at all. So, and it's catching people out, Stephen, because if you are not using your card and you

51:14are applying, you are thinking that nothing's changed. You're not going to be checking the statement because you don't think you've got anything to pay. And so the new angle that occurred to me this week when I saw a TikTok video that we're going to get to is that some people, I would imagine quite a few, are lowering their credit score because they're missing payments, so they didn't know they they owed. So there's an unintended consequence here when you impose this fee, they've got a zero credit balance, they've got is a dormant account, there must be an unintended and intended consequence. What happened? Well, I'm indebted to since I knew it's going to miss since the insolent, the insolent, the insolent, the insolent, the insolent. Yeah. In Gabbani, she posted a video that we're going to play just now, the sound of it obviously. She was a model store card customer, she'd had her, she's had her account, her store card for 10

52:16years. She has a habit of paying her balance in full every month, so she's never been charged to service fee. She settled her account in June and then didn't use the card until this month. And when she presented it to pay in store, the cashier told her that she'd missed payments, she said, what? She said, you've got a balance of a hundred and five rent, which would be two months July and August service fee. And that was a huge shock. Let's let's hear what she had to step. Guys, let me say something. If you have a Woolwoods store account and you have not used it in a few months, please go ahead and check your outstanding balance. My account has been paid in full since June, right? I paid it off. The last time I used my account, there was a May and then I paid it off at the beginning of June, so I'm in a nice and durable team, since there's a lot of normal units. So I got to shock up my life. Last weekend, when I went to get a few things at Woolwoods and I was like, I didn't use my account, you know, you know, use its paid off, use its paid off, you know, it's the credit game. And then I was told what I had been outstanding amounts of a hundred and five rents because I haven't paid for my account. And I was like, that's

53:19impossible. I paid my accounts off at the beginning of June. And the cashier was like, yeah, they've started charging admin fees basically with all of that. You use your accounts. So if you are like me and you are sitting, no, we'll see our account, the account that has been paid in full, or you haven't used your accounts since June, I guess, because I think this was the benefit at the end of June. Please go ahead, Jack, because what happened is I got my credit score and my credit score has now dropped significantly because I have a missed payments on my accounts. That's why I wasn't even aware that I had payments that needed to be made. I mean, Wendy, so she had two unpaid fees because she wasn't expecting them. They logged as missed payments instead of missed fees. And then that affects her credit score. I mean, she must be furious. Well, exactly, because whatever they fought on your account, right? So it's, it's, it's, she didn't pay it because she didn't know they were there. It's a dent. She said she wasn't notified. She approached me with and they haven't,

54:20according to her, they haven't been able to provide any proof of correspondence that that, any way that they know to that. So if there's Lajla, yeah, has this, this, um, impaired credit record. And she says one is famous, actually, two is famous. She didn't pay her July, she didn't pay August because she hadn't used a card and she had no reason to believe based on past experience that she owed them anything. So yeah, um, she sent some people on the comments didn't get what she was trying to say. The things that changed when the first of July because they're like, but hello, you haven't account they charged these service fees like what aren't you understanding here? And she was like, they never charged any fees before and I haven't changed my payment behavior. And she says, yeah, I always get an SMEs telling me that if an outstanding amount has to be paid, um, and I got nothing this time. Um, so she says she's not disputing the fact that when you use a card, you're checked, you're checked to fee, the point is that the rules changed without

55:21who being aware of it. So I asked Woolwiss this week, what impact has the imposition of service fees or paid up unpaid up or credit balances accounts had on the number of account closures? Because a lot of people were like, why aren't closing my accounts? But whether they do, we don't know. And is there any chance that Woolwiss will reconsider this new policy due to the credit score impact, which I don't think that we really thought about it. And the response was essentially no. We've been proactive about limiting the impact to customers who no longer get utility from their store card, but ask them whether we can close their account. That's what they've been saying. At this stage, we're unlikely to reconsider our fee policy because it does necessary to provide and maintain the credit facility. I have to say, I just don't buy that for a second. It's a computer for goodness sake. I mean, come on. Yes, I agree with you completely. And you know what they've done. I mean, do you think about it in 2024, they wrote in, I mean, they won't give me numbers. They wouldn't tell me how many people have closed their account. We can't please don't you? You know how it goes. But it's two years ago, they brought in this, they extended the net to all

56:26those people whose accounts were older than since 2007. And our two years later, they've extended even further. Well, let's put up the amount by two and 50 per person. And they've increased no account. That's not attracting it. They are now applying it even if you are not spending it or whatever. So that's a lot. I'm interested in the financial results. There's a lot more money coming in around the store cards for them. Thank you very much indeed. Wendy Nola really appreciated you consuming in just such an important thing to do. You've got to sort of check everything with accounts. Don't you? 28 minutes now after 7. The money show shapeshifters. 25 minutes now to 8. The time will have very pleased to tell you sitting in front of us is Andilik Umal, who's done various things. I mean, he started studying as an accountant, did a bit of accountancy, worked for two of the big corporates, went into his own, went into his own again, probably went into his own again, because he's a very clever and wise man spent some time in radio.

57:28So obviously, because we all make mistakes in life, he doesn't do it as much anymore. And I'm pleased to tell you. He's sitting opposite me now. He's also got a book out called Things I Wish I New. And till a good evening, be honest. You're just here because you missed the radio. Of course, of course. I mean, things I would do to hang out here two or three years. Oh, he's doing good. And really, thank you for coming in. I really appreciate it. Newlands East Secondary School Bazulina Tell running the talk shop. Yeah, that story true. It is. It is. I had a biology teacher Mr. Jerome Lawrence was actually now the principal of Branson High, I believe it or not. Oh, wow. Find me how life works. Wow. Yes. But down in Newlands East Secondary School in case it ended as my bio teacher. And I had this idea, wasn't really an idea like most things I've done in life. I just saw an opportunity. So for whatever reason, the school wouldn't allow us to leave the gates of the school during break time. Yeah, sure. So would have these aunties from the community come and sell the sweets and everything else. Probe to the fence. Yes. Right. The

58:31known who get out, which is kind of looked odd to me. And that also meant that we're quite limited in terms of the products we have options to. So I wanted to do like cooler things like Bani Chahaz and you know, drinks and all sorts of other stuff. And I approached him and I had this idea that we should convert his biology laboratory into a talk shop. And that's what we did. So that was my like real first of many for raising to into businesses as a student. You would have had to get the capital. I mean, it's a tech shop, but you still need money to buy the first set of stock. Yeah, I had, I guess a mother who was a sucker for pain. So growing up also was her sales rep. Because early on in life, when I was in primary school, I would sell sweets for her and my aunts. All right. So I knew that you know, she's been here a couple of hundred. So I had a little bit of a float. Shall we say was that of capital? And yeah, yeah, got that going on. Trapa Neur is on Trapa being an entrepreneur. Runs in the family a little bit maybe. I think entrepreneur real.

59:31Yeah, they run into the family, right? I think we were quite an enterprising bunch, but I was brought up by a very large and very close net family of teachers actually. My grandmother, my grandfather, my own mother, my many uncles and aunts were teachers. And my friends actually called our home a staffer. Most of the people in the house taught them a subject or two. So, yes, I did grow up in a relatively disciplined environment, you know, like work hard, get good grades and stuff like that, but nobody owned a business now. So when you were finishing school, you said the countancy after school. So sell your maths marks were better than mine. I don't know what yours were, but I did okay in math. I guarantee you, they were better. I did, I did do okay in math, but it's funny about, um, about seeing someone or having someone in your life, which is approaching the right direction. So thanks to that, by our little teacher, I was at another teacher and at the time the school I was in at New Liza East couldn't afford a full-time guidance teacher. So we had this late, who would come in one

1:00:35day a week and pretty much all the grades would have a guidance class. And I told her that one day, I want to be an entrepreneur and she said, well, if you want to be an entrepreneur and start your own business, you must study one of two things either engineering or accounting. And I thought, you know, what does engineering mean to me? I'm still thinking about it. I just, or not enough fixing things and building stuff because you're a kid, you know, nothing but life. And accounting kind of sounded like counting, so I'm like, you know, we're going to be counting money or something. So that's the only reason I ended up starting accounting. And of course, once the excitement of studying finance could go in a lot of research about who was doing things and at the time, believe it or not, I stumbled on the story of Bitvest and Brian Joffy, who when I think of the years, you know, trying to kind of align the timelines, that was where the days when Bitvest was becoming this kind of beer month of the JSC. And I would read up about all these people there that C-A-S-A behind their names and they look like really smart people. So I decided I'm going to be one. So I mean, I must say, I think that qualification C-A-S-A of all the people we speak to sitting in the chair that you're

1:01:38sitting in now is our shapeshifter. That's probably the single, apart from a metric, the single most common qualification that they will have. I mean, CEOs are so often a C-A, which is so interesting. So you studied what's now UK's it in? Yes, UK's it in. What was then univestity of Nata? Yes, no, no, we don't call it that. Although we still call roads roads. And you studied accounting. You did articles of Deloitte and then you went to Inversik and the reason I ask you about these two things is if you had to think of two big corporates in South Africa that are not really known as hotbeds of entrepreneurialism, whatever it is, you would possibly say, hmm, one of the big banks and one of the big accounting firms, how did I, I'm not going to ask you what they were like? Because they're very big successful operations and you can't say Stephen Kossel was not an entrepreneur. Yeah, he is. But what was it like for you wanting to be an entrepreneur being a sort of becoming a bigger cog in these massive things? So one of the chapters in the book is

1:02:42Ben time in corporate. Yeah. Which is going to intuitive because most entrepreneurs I taught, you know, drop out of university, come up with Facebook and you're a billionaire. The truth is you actually learn a lot by working for corporates because what are corporates? They're these machines that have built systems and controls that are able to operate at scale and most of the times profitably. What was interesting about my journey to DeLoi is when you're doing articles Stephen, you're seen to be leaving after the third year of articles. So you're not in a job that's good guarantees that you're going to be in 20 years' time. So you're on your way, you finish articles, you do your board exams and you're going to go on into whatever you're going to do in life. So that was rather different than that you never felt like a corporate. It just felt like an extension of university to be frank. Investing was different. I always wanted to do M&A, I wanted to do deals and I was fortunate enough to be in a team that was doing a lot of the bank's own transactions and of course advising on some of the big transactions. As you know, invests take especially in those times. They were just like punching above the O8 in terms of being a relatively small bank but being a proper M&A shop. And I was very, very lucky because the culture

1:03:49of the place is actually very entrepreneurial. Stephen himself used to do the induction when you joined the Investek and I never forget one of the things he said was the card you're going to get with the Investek brand to see that as your franchise. To see this job as if you work for Investek but actually you are an entrepreneur or whatever division you're in you running your own business. And that stuck with me and that's exactly what was pretty much my experience at Investek. You worked as if this place just brings us all together. It's a bit of a culture, it does a brand but actually you kind of like you eat your own kill and that stuck with me and that really inspired me as well. There's something I think I think we'll probably find there. A lot of people like you who came across Stephen's Cross of at some point. I don't know why but he used to word Uncle Lot. Hello Uncle. Hello. And he seems to have had an impact on people. I mean he must have seen one of the people that I mean you mentioned Brian Drafi at the Vist. If you look at the time

1:04:49you were coming into thing. Yes. I mean they must have been some of the giants that stood out for you. Funny in the book and the cover of the book the person that wrote a message was Stephen. I asked him specifically because he really did make an impression on me as you know both Brian and Stephen got very very close because of the many years that they probably spent together with Investek being an advisor and Investek. I had a personal experience with Investek because when I was at Deloitte I was the in charge. Well you eventually become the in charge and the audit but I audited McCarthy from first year all the way to 30 so eventually became the in charge in 30 and when I joined the physical performance which obviously reported to Stephen. Pidvest wanted to buy McCarthy and until today they own you know all the rental businesses what do you call Brake, budget rent the car which is not averse and budget and all of course all of the retailers all the car retail shops and I remember as a little kid who knew nothing about it in activities thinking my hand up

1:05:49in a co-founder's meeting and saying please put me on that account because I know everything there is to know about McCarthy that's what you get for three years of auditing the same company and that was just like a bit of a full circle moment for me and I of course I got on to that that's how I ended up working with Brian Drafi pretty closely and learning from how it best do what they do you know their whole policy of having control of the businesses their whole policy of using other businesses in the group to be customers of that business the whole policy of control and ownership you know they're only they're only bought 100% of businesses they would never buy a minority snake so you watch an entrepreneur running a listed business but with a very clear strategy and executing it like with precision that that was something else to see so you you are at investing for a while and then I had this quite interesting experience today on google which is AI whatever it is and I typed in what was the first company that Undelekumalor founded because I wasn't quite clear in my mind from your website and it said CIO management services yeah and then

1:06:56I'd know I lost the page so I typed it again and then I corrected itself yeah so I was like I don't know what's going on yeah welcome to AI yeah it was CIO yeah that I want to say founded I guess it's a partnership I do yeah yeah the only business I would say I found it from scratch would have to be our minotroponer that's my love business the work we do there with entrepreneurs and it didn't really start as a business to be frank eventually kind of became one so we basically manage the progress and be off of corporate so we use corporate money to help small businesses build and grow their businesses so that's probably the one business I've founded my every other I joined when there was already someone yeah I founded it yeah leaving investing then I mean just remember where's other I mean you will remember better than I was how Africa was in the mid-2000s boom was going on in a way that we can't even imagine oh now you know the in Baykey generation oh yeah back on that with fondness I'm not going to go into you know what I mean and because the economy was growing there was the commodity supercycler was

1:07:57all before the global financial crisis of 2007 I mean leaving investing when you went when you told your friends around what I don't know where you were having a drink at the time I'm leaving investing I mean if it were me I would have said and deal it but uncle no thank you I do this what was interesting was the response of my bosses that invested so you were staying Kevin Kerr Khmushinane where my bosses of course I told them and they were quite supportive but when I stole to Steve it first thing he said was go for it enjoy go for it do it you give down your homework yes you really want to do this yes absolutely go for it and call me if ever you need something wow and that was really yeah reassuring for a young person who thought you know he kind of had an idea but in two didn't really know what he was doing and and then goodness most of it worked out and and really the book is a reflection of all those years the book is about all the lessons that were learned through all those very difficult decisions that you didn't have the certainty

1:08:58or the spreadsheet to you to explain why this makes sense you went mostly on Godfiel and as a result a lot of lessons were learned from many mistakes and a few successes long the way our business world at the time wasn't nearly as transformed as it is now most of the people looked like me and looked like me and I mean Ciaia was a a black owned management services company was that in some way an attraction it was the opportunity of our time yeah you know many people speak foul of B yeah you will never find me speaking foul of B I'm absolutely clear that I'm a capable a black young man at least back then and absolutely I should and also have the opportunities but I am not unclear about the fact that I lived at a time where it was fashionable for companies to give me the opportunity even varsity I went to university because they don't give me a person I finished school high school or let me say I started university in 1996 my student

1:10:01number starts with 96 yes so if you think about whether country was in 1996 two years after the first democratic elections it was fashionable to give a black kid money to go to mosque instead of being a Cia so absolutely I benefited from the environment I was there and even when we started Ciaia the big four firms were the go to places more and more government departments in ISOEs were looking for black Cia firms that could do all the other consulting work but just they didn't quite test us with the audit you know back then but you could do a lot of work around consulting you know we did as a verification we did internal audit we did also some things and that was the opportunity of our time and we did really really well because we we were the right package we were a bunch of six or seven CAs men or women some in urban some in Gilbert later on some in the East in Cape and we were offering all these services that were that were professional services and we were all trained at Deloitte who doesn't want to mess with us and indeed we we got a lot of traction as a result of that so I think we all as need need should think before we speak badly

1:11:03of anything and really look at both sides of the coin yes absolutely this criticism on P but there's a lot of good that it achieved do you know and deal of all the people I've spoken to about BEE because there's been we've had lots of debates about it recently yeah everyone else who supported about to drag it out of them like a stone oh yeah really you're the first to explicitly off your own bat say so I find that I find that really interesting and very refreshing if I may say because there is a case would be a strong case and and you know we just don't hear the case often enough you're at the money show your shapeshift of this evening and delay cummao he's with us for another few minutes it's ten minutes stay you're listening to the money show with Stephen Curtis brought to you by absent business bank connect with the team that understands the lay of your land at every business at absent the CEO's up today the money show shapeshift is eight minutes to eight and delay cummao the founder and CEO of cummao co author of the book things I wish I knew

1:12:06he's your shapeshifter this evening um you've been involved in the boards of parastatles now I was looking back you're on the board of SAA I was left before all the nonsense started in 2014 were you part of the board that was removed there was a board that was removed I was absolutely part and share of corona since board no we came off to that but we also got five yes share of corona's board got fired we would have pointed all those while at the beginning and then when you know we kind of behave the same way yes share of corona's independent we also got five yeah after money you got five things and go know that makes no sense we will fight sure but that was that was such a big lesson for me a big look for me it was you know you go into these things to really wanting to serve yeah you really want to serve you know you get approached you oh wow why me people tell you no no no I mean you were like 36 I was a kid man yeah I was kid I was probably the youngest there the time but then you look at the my lange commission yeah and then you look at all the things that happened after we were fired so uncertainly by the way and there was a time

1:13:11that do do me any any I could green I know where the only ones there those were my fellow board members there there was a whole thing and then you hear about all the things and then the fat cook and everything else we witnessed then you're like wow governance wins every time brother is that why you are now on the board of actor it's not why it's probably the reason I'll always serve my country the best way I can the Air Force company South Africa is an important business yeah yeah for us to enjoy it remains sustainable absolutely yeah I feel very strongly about businesses like that and and perhaps even more so than the state owning an airline because airports have a tremendous purpose I travel anywhere on our continent continent and then land at Oartambo and tell me how you suddenly feel I mean it's a whole other experience so it's an important business it's a sustainable business I want to say we have taxi rank for for airlines that's pretty much what we do but thankfully the part of our business is really great so they're called non-era revenue which is all the retail stuff and all the things you enjoy

1:14:13the airports so I really find it quite fulfilling to be able to to contribute to something so important you got involved in other organizations so there was the black business council the super chartered accountants and as somebody's reported on those organizations and sometimes that you know the black business council's a lot of politics when it was formed yes I saw it as the first time we had a kind of capitalist lobby group that the ANC had to listen to yeah I thought that was a very important step in in South Africa sort of political and political economic economic evolution but as a reporter what I never know is what it's really like behind the scenes because organizations like that can sometimes almost look paralyzed because it's actually quite hard to make decisions I mean you know as journalists who like to think it's easy I know it's not yeah what's it like behind the scenes of groups like that managing self-interest yeah managing narrow interests so you try and put a group of people under the banner of the advancement of black business

1:15:14interests in South Africa but then you start to get the constituencies that form the group of people they come from various organizations so how I ended up in the BBC's because I was president of Abasa yeah which is an association of black accountants and see as like me so my view of the world is very different to the president of Nephung or Fappos or I can go on and on and on so but now you find yourself all of you as the ex co of this business organization there's meant to lobby for this collective interest and you soon learned that actually for us to achieve this collective interest we also got to manage more narrower interests of the people that form this place so that was probably the biggest lesson I learned there and leadership at times calls on you to try and find everybody to focus on the bigger kind of purpose but except the fact that others will typically be drawn back to their narrow interests and that's what really creates the complexity I was there at the time when Patrice Moutap was president and he was an interesting

1:16:16person to watch in action by the way in those days I mean everyone's obsessed with the idea that he'll be president I don't think he will I don't know man who knows that that guy's very ambitious and he's achieved most things in his life I wouldn't put it positive things I wish I knew what's the the biggest thing you must have been asked the civilian times the thing you will you the thing that more most intensely you wished you'd knew so why I even wrote the book and why it's called that is because I I had a frustration in business but that frustration started in my personal life when you get married suddenly if you sort of like me and you tell your uncles I've met this girl and I did the same thing when I met my wife at Vosity we dated then I went to my grandfather I met the son of my auntie said that and the uncle's gonna go nobody ever sees you down and go boy let's just tell you what it's like to be a married man and you know sharing entire life with somebody who grew up very different from you and all the dynamics that you only experience once you get married I think that would have been useful so I started having this experience about my business business life as well where I was going through stuff that was

1:17:18like what did anybody ever told me yeah that you know it would be useful that just kind of look out for this so I have 16 chapters basically of things I've learned that have been quite instructive for me my journey that to pick to steal from the analogy of a young man trying to get married I'm talking to a young man and woman either starting out of business or in business and I'm just saying these are the things these are things that happen to me and these are the things I learned in those in those little experiences and when they happen to you here's a bit of a head start of what's likely to come up for you so I put together these 16 there were many more we ended up with the 16 and and I hope it helps that many of us that are trying to make sense of this thing call on to partnership it's hard it's lonely but there is a lot of upside in it and I'm trying to do my part in helping those that come off to me with a little bit of a head start in this journey we got 30 seconds left we have to talk about what you do for fun apart from I mean from the sheer joy you clearly get from living life where do you like to go on holiday Kruggen National Park you're a

1:18:22bush person not a beach person I'm also a beach person fine enough I'm weird like that yeah I'm weird like that I love the beach I love the bush the reason I Kruggen comes up I've just been there recently it's amazing the bridges are being built by the way everybody so please make your way the floods are going it's an amazing place and exercise please don't tell me you just jog I run and I go to gym and I love golf golf golf golf is the one thing in my life I've accepted I will never master sure maybe that's why I like it maybe andyla Kamalo it's been wonderful having you in our studio thank you so much really appreciate it thank you for coming in andyla Kamalo is an entrepreneur as you can hear he's done many many things currently CEO of Kamalo co and also author of the book things I wish I knew your listening to the money show with Stephen Curtis brought to you by appsa business bank connect with the team that understands the lay of your land at agribusiness at appsa.co. today well US market some afraid still down obviously oil prices

1:19:26the main reason for that brain crewed going above 101 dollars today that our Jones down 0.56 percent the Nasdaq down 0.68 the S&P 500 down 0.44 amazing what a different certain marks make I mean it's just two dollars above where it was yesterday but that magic figure of 100 dollars having such an impact and no real prospect of peace around the straight of whom was back tomorrow good evening it's 8 o'clock