Crypto Market Cycles with Dan Matuszewski

0:00Welcome to Galaxy Brains. An infinite amount of cash, cash, and let me host Alex Thorpe. US banking system is sound and resilient. Bitcoin meeting new all-time high. If you're not long, if you're not long, you're short. Satoshi's gonna come on there. Waff is directly. Go quiet. I hope Bitcoin's gonna be erased. Bitcoin. Bitcoin's the best crypto-user. Bitcoin is going to zero. Welcome back to Galaxy Brains. As always, I'm your host Alex Thorne, head of firm-wide research at Galaxy. Bitcoin not zero. We have a great episode for you this week. Dan Macheshevsky from CMS Holdings is our guest. Dan's back to talk about markets. Talk about the L1 wars, the emergence of Hood versus base, the future of stock tokens on chain and RWA. And where he thinks we are in this current market cycle, has Bitcoin seen a bottom. And what he makes of Tethers audit here. Dan was one of the first people, maybe the first person ever to publicly say

1:01that he had created and redeemed in an enormous amount of tether. Way back in 2019, that was at a time when people were very skeptical of whether tether actually had its reserves. We'll talk with Dan about that and much more. And before we get to that, Bimnet of BB is off this week. So we will talk with our friend Connor Finemore from Galaxy Trading about the AI trade, the data center build out energy, equity markets and more. Before we get to all of that, any Germanity, please refer to the link to the disclaimer in the show notes. And note that none of the information in the show constitutes investment advice or an offer recommendation or solicitation by Galaxy, or any of its affiliates to buy or sell any securities. It's effectively the last week of summer. Labor Day is this Monday. And we've got one more before markets probably heat up in the fall as they often do. Let's get right into it with Connor Finemore. Let's go now to our friend Connor Finemore from Galaxy Trading Conor. Welcome to Galaxy brands. Thank you. I think it's been 16 months since I've been on. So. Have you only been on once or where's it twice?

2:03You know, it was twice. And it was in like a three week period because I think Bimnet was on a holiday. And it was, I want to say April of 25. So we just had tariff tantrum and then the week after. And I think VIX was like 40 and everything was going haywire. And it's probably not worth cutting in anything I said because it may have been mildly doomer. And then we proceeded to really climb the wall or worry from there. So yeah. Well, Bimnet is on vacation this week as well. And so wanted to have you on. And it's great to have you on also to offer a different perspective. You know, I think the audience is quite familiar hearing from me and Bimnet, although I'm going to go out and say we do a great job. But good to have some good to have some diversity in here Connor. I mean, let's just start with, you know, at a high level. How are you thinking about equity markets here? You know, we're near all time highs. It's we're still climbing that wall of worry. Are we not? Definitely. And I think that, you know, four weeks after the AI Leopold

3:05Unwined event, volatility has come off in single names quite a bit. That's true for index as well. But there was a real period in June and July where AI related memory stocks, powered shell names, Neo clouds were sort of testing what the limits were for single name volatility when it comes to 10, 20, 50 billion dollar, 100 billion dollar market cap companies. And for a while, there were there was head scratching about like, where was that coming from? And then the unwind happened. And that was like, you know, the sunburst that really has dissipated. All of August. And now we're kind of on the other side of the coin for a lot of the story. People anticipating the anthropic IPO by the end of the year, a few other bits of paper coming, a lot of data center debt coming. And it really feels like the catalyst calendar for the AI trade has slowed down a little bit through earnings. And you know, once we're through the holiday this weekend,

4:08we're going to have a lot coming in the back half of the year. And so the house view on single name volatility is probably that it's it's back to a reasonable level, maybe even a low level. But it's hard to push back on people that say, look, there's not a lot coming in the near term on that calendar. You think the, you know, people were looking at the SpaceX IPO. I guess that was in June as like a near term or a local top in the AI trade or the equity markets sucking all the value out of, you know, things like crypto to fund investment in those types of companies. Do you think the anthropic IPO, you know, if and when it happens, will be a similar milestone? It's hard to know because I think like the sheer amount of capital that is coming into the space constantly for this investment is so large. It's really hard to know like what the, what the limit is. And so on the debt side going back to SpaceX for a second, I read a great comment in an investor letter yesterday that was for SpaceX to

5:10meet their CapEx guide in 2027. They're going to need to issue more debt than Germany next year. In fact, it's going to be twice it roughly twice as much debt has journey. And that's just SpaceX, right? So between the higher credit, IG hyper scalers, as we'd call them, Google Amazon, Microsoft, the Neo clouds, the data centers raising data center specific paper, all sorts of flavors of AI capital. I mean, these numbers are continued to be like really, really big. And so like what moment does the market say not quite or does it lurch? Like, is it anthropic? I don't know. I feel like people are quite excited to get exposure to anthropic. So it seems like that one, it may be okay. But I think like data center project level specific would been having that kind of indigestion all summer. And for a lot of investors, you know, when, when deals are being brought to them, most of the time they're saying, I don't think there's anything specific with this deal that I don't like, but I know that I'm going to get 15 more by the end of the year or 20 more by the end of the year.

6:14So I'm going to get to pick and choose and each one of these are, you know, it's a billion plus of paper to get into the market. And so, you know, the clearing prices have been very, very wide. And, you know, with global back end rates moving, some of that stuff will be harder and harder to raise over time. I think I've gone off a little bit on a tangent there. Maybe it's going to go. I think you're right. I mean, well, it's that, it's that this is sort of the worry component of the AI trades wall of worry, right? Which is like, is there enough money to keep funding this global expansion? How is does too much been invested? It's like there, the fear has been for now, at least like 18 months that like, there's either too much money or not enough money. Either one is scary. Yeah, and it's like overbilled continues to be a conversation and like until we get really solid numbers from the labs and from the neoclouds,

7:17like where, who, who the revenue is actually coming from? Like people are going to continue to be concerned. But when you talk to the private market guys, or you get, you know, sort of like little news articles leaking about ARR numbers, I mean, they look really good. And like the KPIs look really good. Like I'm, you know, subscribers to certain coding applications are like doubling month over month and they're doubling from 10 million to 20 million. So, you know, and so the scale is so large. And you continue to see front end GPU pricing coming at very, very high prices, right? SpaceX was able to get two very large deals, one from Anthropic and one from Google at very, very competitive pricing with really, really short payback periods for those GPUs. Anthropic continues to lease data center capacity on 20 year plus leases from multiple powered shell providers. So their internal data is telling them, you know, we need to consume more. And with every deal that comes out like an HRT saying, okay, we're going to, we're buying two billion of compute next year.

8:24Jane Street saying we're buying five billion of compute. Goldman saying we're buying X amount of compute. Like the more of that that comes, the more it makes sense that, oh, this is where all this investment is coming from. And then what flavor does that compute come in because like for the big pharma companies like their data is very important. Right. How do we build a security layer on top of our cloud on top of our GPU cluster to make sure that, you know, not only from a competitive advantage, but also from a safety standpoint, how do we protect that? Like that's going to drive pricing too because that software layer is going to be unique to whoever is able to provide that service. And so I think that the Anthropic S1 actually could be quite positive for the space just because you can see, oh, wow, this growth is insane. And what they think they're 27 numbers and they're 28 numbers are going to be like, well, that's where the money is coming from. That's why we need to invest so much. Do we know when has there been, what's the reporting been on when the S1 might drop? Obviously, we wouldn't know like other than maybe what's been reported.

9:27My guess is late October early November. But so this year's over the market is expecting it this year off the top of my head. Yes. Yeah, interesting. So and then the, you know, another aspect of this and you mentioned, I think it's relevant in your point about the pharma companies and the need for security or like, where are you actually hosting this inference? Is this debate between the open source and the frontier models that, you know, Nvidia has sort of led this very public charge being supportive of open source. And I think, is it everyone but did open AI eventually sign it? I can't remember. One of them may be signed in the other didn't. I basically, basically open AI and Anthropic didn't sign it and then everyone else did, which of course makes sense because they're purveyors of closed source models, not open source. But like, do you think that if, you know, the Kimi K3s and the GLM, these open source open weight models proliferate for business, which they might because

10:28you, if you can, you know, pay the data center and get the compute yourself, you don't need to go through the frontier lab. Does that, you know, I guess, I'm going to phrase it a different way. If Anthropic and open AI aren't the paramount winners of the AI race, is there still a big boom underneath it for the data centers, the Neo clouds, et cetera? I don't have a super strong opinion on this question. I think it's something that a lot of people are spending a lot of time thinking about. I think the question of, are we going to use models in our workflows? Are that question is pretty answered? Like, people are using them and, and it's really changing how people learn, how people work, how people, you know, build their systems. What kinds of workflows need to go to open source or, you know, the frontier models, or the highest power models? I think the user has a learning curve and, and like enterprise has a real learning curve because I'm probably not certain yet whether I'm optimizing my token spend on my workflows,

11:33just because like, I'm kind of dumb and I'm not the most computer savvy person in comparison to someone who spends all their time developing software. And whose responsibility is it to optimize that? Ultimately, it's probably going to be enterprise, right? Because I control my own spend. Does that mean that 95% of everyday workflows go to open weight, like open models or to an older model like, you know, where the frontier is in 27? Does that mean that we're using this year's models? Or also what compute architecture are my queries going to? All of that is pretty open and I'm sure there's going to be intermediary companies that help to solve all those questions just because so much money is being fired around. I don't think that the anthropic and open AI and know the answer. I don't think Google knows the answer. I don't think Nvidia knows the answer. I think that people are reacting to the consumer and reacting to headlines.

12:37But in terms of going back to your original question, like, are we going to over build as a result of that? I think it's unlikely just because penetration is still so low. Yeah. It's also like the next question of course is, are we going to get more efficient on how much we can get out of the out of chips and out of architecture and out of memory? I think that's undeniable that that's going to happen. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And you're right, nobody does quite know what that resource allocation from the consumer side looks like. We've seen some early green shoots. I know Coinbase published something about this just, you know, coincidentally, yes, in our industry as well, but about how they have a custom harness that's auto routing, different employees queries to different models to maximize token spend efficiency. I think you're going to see a lot more of that, right? And it could just be, yeah, you know, you downgrade an employee to son it when they're not coding, but, you know, they can use, you know, Opus or Fable if they're coding or vice versa. But it could, I think also include some of these cloud hosted, you know,

13:38like open router, open models. I think one of the weird ones that I saw was during the cold card exploit investigation, this red team has been going around doing security review of all this open source software that lives in the Bitcoin ecosystem and being downgraded by, you know, the anthropics and opening eyes into weaker models because like they were doing security research. And yet, then to rely pretty heavily on these, you know, Chinese made open weight models for basic, you know, cyber research. Not, you know, now I can understand how the labs might not be able to determine the difference between a hacker and a pen tester. But, you know, that's one area where it's pretty clear something has got to change between the front, the frontier labs and the open source models. I think we're still, you're pointing about penetration. I don't know, do you know any numbers on this? I've seen a couple, but I'm forgetting them, but it's very small penetration. I wish I had it prepped, but it's like 1% or something though of retail

14:43individual consumers is actually using paid AI. I think that's been another, like another really interesting observation is that it's been very hard to get people to pay. And that's something that like I have friends that are more bearish, I would say, on AI build out. And that's something that they often cite. And I don't quite know how that happens. I don't know if it's just enterprise ends up being like really carrying the flame on spend or if over time the consumer learns to spend or if someone comes up with a novel way, which of course, when I say that probably it ends up being advertising, which the consumer is not going to like. But for the very savvy user, I think people are seeing value in their spend. And, you know, I have co-workers who are like, I'm spending $200 a month on my personal subscription and using way more in our enterprise. And so like I'm getting very good value out of that on my projects, which might be concerning because they may be working on working on personal

15:46things. But anyway, it has been a concern for people. Yeah, I think that demand side concern. We were we've gone so far from just Christmas last year, December 2025 to, you know, now in September of 2026. No one was really using it for like advanced productivity and advanced coding at scale, literally the end of last year. So I think we're just early in that story. I think I've started to see like local AI consulting businesses pop up to like go around to their local, you know, I don't lawn remads, pizza places, real estate groups, lawyers, to just like on board them to AI. I think that's an overarching theme of the whole event. I mean, by the way, there are still private equity guys out there that their entire business model is I'm going to go into a smaller medium size business and like on board them to basic software. So when you're talking about penetration, like that's 25 years later, there's going to be a lot of onboarding workflows to AI. But I do think that an overarching point of our conversation today is that

16:49things are changing so fast and even the people that you would expect anthropic Google to have some kind of roadmap for what next year is going to look like or six months are going to look like they don't they don't know any further than really you or I know. And that's and you can just see that in their data center build out and their data center spend like 12 months ago, they all undershot how much data center they need. Which is crazy. Yeah, it is. I do feel pretty strong that, you know, wherever it lands and whoever's buying it, like we need a lot more power in the United States and probably data centers are a big part of that. And but that story is so early. You know, I saw that there was a this is a total aside, but Senator Ed Markey just defeated representative Seth molten and Massachusetts to be the Democratic nominee for his own existing seat in the Senate. And AI was a part of this story because in the debate, Seth molten asked at Markey, you know, or they were asked if you use AI and

17:49Ed Markey's answer was a dare I say boomerish, right? Like no, I'm not sure. Global blood and Seth molten seized on this to make a generational argument. And again, it just sort of highlights to me though separate from the politics of AI, which will stay away from for now. But it highlights to me just there's generational gaps. They remind me of when I was growing up and you know, I was a 17 year old with a Nokia cell phone and my grandparents didn't know how to use it and like same thing in the internet. Like so this story is going to the demand and integration into the economy and every people's everyday lives has like literally decades to play out still I think. And it'll probably be more in the public eye. There's going to be more like we're already seeing real pushback as we go into midterms and it's become a topic for a lot of Senate races, governor, governor ship races. So look, the equity market has been, you know, positive. You you've been rewarded as an equity investor for buying dips. He talked about the tariff tantrum in April 25 legendary. A parent turned out like buying opportunity, you know, I didn't

18:52necessarily back the truck up then. Like I should have, you know, is that sort of what the equity investor is thinking of right now is like that wall of worry is every dip still a buying opportunity and if so for how long is that sort of is rates of factor like what's what's causing them to worry and not just, you know, go on and buy dips. I think I have two points on that. I think the first is when you're comparing investments relative to what your opportunity set is global long duration assets continue to sell off and that's true in the US and has been very topical with best in the US, but it's worth knowing that it's happening everywhere. Japan, UK, Europe, Australia, for all sorts of reasons. But when you look at 10 year, 10 year forward rates in all of those countries, including the US, it's above 6% and in the UK, it's above 7%. And that's like what you might typically expect for your equity return profile over the long term, obviously, equities are a

19:54long duration asset, right? And so if you're getting 7% for your government exposure, that's where your very long term oriented investors, you know, defined benefits investors start to actually, they're probably the best off as a result of this because they can, you know, increase their fixed income allocations and get the returns that they need to pay their benefit holders. The second thing in US equity specifically is hyperscaler free cash flow that has flipped as the CapEx numbers have boomed and given just the large concentration of large cap stocks in the US and the S&P 500. If that investment turns out to be lower return than the companies think they are right now, that probably will have a dampening effect on sort of medium term, long term US equity returns. But for now, the companies are telling you, we think the returns for this are great and we have to make these investments.

20:56And their earnings growth continues to be really, really strong, particularly in cloud. So, you know, the story is going to keep humming on until, you know, we have more clarity on that investment spend. Very interesting times. There you have it, my friend Connor Finemore from Galaxy trading. Thank you so much for coming on Galaxy brains Connor. Thanks Alex is always. Let's go now to our guest Dan match a chef ski from CMS holdings. Dan, welcome back to Galaxy brains. Good to be here. So I was just showing I'm trying to get an orb. Yeah, because I was showing you, I'm happy to show the actually show the audience here, but I'll probably wear this on one. So I just got this t shirt, which I think is pretty funny. There it is. There's the whole thing. I think he's cutting down a flock camera. Um, and we, we were saying, I guess what A16 Z, like publicly defended flocks said that they put out a video. Was it that I saw? There was like, yeah, I didn't watch the whole thing.

21:56We are. I mean, the general just was like stopping a criminal, be get on board with flock or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's crazy because like, it's, it's kind of like a run around on, you know, like fourth amendment type stuff, because like the police already have the ability to put cameras or like speed traps on roads. But the flock cameras are like license plate readers, like, like when you go through easy pass. Um, but I read that they also scrape wireless signals from vehicles as they go by. And so they can actually with just a few data points, like they can see my, the fingerprint of my Wi-Fi. Um, and with a few data points, like if you're sitting like, I'm driving Dan's car. And they're like, well, the license plate says Dan's car, but like the digital signature of the occupant record, uh, looks like Alex from, you know, where he lives. So maybe Alex is driving Dan's car. So it's like way more surveillance, I think than people realize. Oh, definitely. I mean, the fact that we are talking about and have don't really understand it.

22:57There's probably a little kind of shit going on in it that like is even beyond that, right? Like that they're not just closing that they're like testing. And we didn't intend to tie this isn't probably going to be the main topic of our chat. I just like connecting his audience knows that Dan get his thoughts on markets as a long time market participant. And a lot has happened since the last time we talked, but I will say there was also this story sort of related, uh, this morning I saw crabs on security, Ryan Krabs, like a big cyber, uh, oh, the I do. Yes. 150 million drivers licenses pictures high quality scans are being sold on the dark web. You know, by the time my like passport and driver's license are probably like circulating from every like tier three crypto exchange that I've given it to. Yeah, it's probably a lot. It's a, it's a route like I just becomes useless, right? Like anyone can do it. That's kind of what I was telling. I, you know, my wife was complaining once rightly about like, you know, how scary it is to have your information on the dark web. And I was like, you just got to treat all government like ID and

23:58foes compromised like, you know, social security number now apparently just right. We got a driver's license. Yeah. Right. If you just assume going in that like your information is already compromised then, yeah, you're just going to take other steps like on your, uh, your own like data or like, uh, your, your home or like the things you can control. Cause like that government. Well, so then this led me to I was saying this internally a galaxy in reaction to this driver's license leak story. I was like, you know, it's actually kind of crazy. Like why does my address have to be on the driver's license? Like surely there could be some kind of like encrypted hash or something like the cops can look it up. But like it's not like visually written on it. And then, you know, one thing led to another and somebody sent me a picture of the world corn, oh, I but world corn orb or yes, which is dear to me. Is that the solution? I don't know, but I want one. I don't know. I'm just saying, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Have you been requesting one?

24:59All right. So I, I basically anytime somebody like, says they're with one or they're getting their like ID photo or something, I was like, listen, if you get me that orb, I will give you, I will hand somebody reward you to get and like, I reached out, Coin fund said they were going to get me one. That was a lie, um, Spencer at beer adventures told me he was going to get me one. That was like, like, I, I'm almost going to get me one. I don't believe they exist because everyone keeps telling me they can get me one and nobody has been ever procurate. And I've offered like real money to like get one. They won't give me one. I've harassed multiple people that work at world coin for one. I mean, I, they are kind of cool. They're dystopian. I was telling you day and a moment ago that, um, so a 16 Z put out a thesis that was recently defending flock cameras. Um, I guess I'm assuming they're an investor. I had this tweet in 21 that where I said that world coin was so incredibly

26:00dystopian, that it's hard to believe it's real. And I basically criticized investors for harvesting, um, people's biometric data. And I think this is why and it's still true Chris Dixon still blocks me. Um, I think it was right after this. So I, you know, I don't, right? I think, actually, I think he just unlocked me. He must have just unlocked me. Oh, man. For a long time, he blocked me because of this. Loan up you five right now. Yeah. I guess so. So that's between 2021. We're so old. I know. We've been like five years ago. Yeah. So five years. I have not been able to get one five years. There's like a mini orb that they have now. Can't get that. I've like multiple times like filled out paperwork. Like people have been like, it's in the, somebody sent me a tracking number. They're like, it's not mean bullshit. Like, I can't get one of these things. I want it because I collect like I collect crypto memorabilia. Like I have like every part of all that I think that's ever been like created. Like I have like a bunch of I have Dan Helds like held node.

27:03I have like random all kinds of like great stuff. And I like want an orb and I can't get one. It's pretty iconic and like you can imagine if, you know, I'd like to see a cyber truck with an orb mounted on like the front hood like driving. Yeah. Just sapping people as it goes by right getting their information. Yeah. You pull up some like a kid's school and you're just doing the back. Yeah. What are you doing, sir? You're like nothing just providing secure identification services to the populace. That's where it's not weird. Well, it's just one of the my conclusion that on a list. I think there was one. Actually, right. I didn't actually see it with my, my own eyes. But I recall people saying in the Oculus in New York. So the train station that's below the World Trade Center that they had one there at one point and they were doing the thing. It's like Shashquatch like people claim this year all the time. But it's like a blurry photo of one in the back. Well, this is such an interesting time in crypto markets as they frankly always are.

28:07But we're at somewhat of a possible pivot point in a number of ways, right? You've got the suit corners in the RWAs. Go ahead. Go ahead. It was boring over the summer. It was. Yeah. June like low to, you know, two weeks ago, it was low volatility. Nothing to nothing moving, right? Oh, yeah. I think it was like, I remember looking and it was like $25 million volume for like coin days over like us Sunday or something like that for Bitcoin. I was like, this is dark. Yeah. I mean, that's extreme. It was something very low like that. The volumes were low and what do you make of the uplift in what's used Bitcoin price of the proxy like, you know, low 60s, basically we ripped from the 200 week to the almost, you know, to the 50 week and cover that whole spread. Yeah, I think people got really short. Because so there was a whole sailor saga which people love to work themselves up over that he was going to unwind. It was over. He'd like run out of like mouse traps. Like you couldn't get out, which ended up be wrong.

29:09He was able to like raise a ton of money because somehow there's insatiable demand for like the comment and that thing. And like was able to get the stretch product close to pay or almost that pick. I don't even know where it is right now, but it's very close to it. Like what's on of that back? Go to this huge cash buffer. Like he retired a bunch of the converts early, which was kind of kicked this whole thing off. But that whole panic ensued and there was like a material increase in OI. And that was obviously just people getting short and then it just blew out. So like now we're sort of on the upswing. It's unclear like there's like a whole bigger move behind this. It's interesting because like the Robin Hood meme sort of cycle, the mania that's kind of like that's it's got a lot of people like coming out of the woodwork. There's like pockets of like interest in it. We got to see how sustained it is, but things are moving a little bit like high pinnacle time high. Like that was like material like some of the like revenue generating tokens have gotten some like real inflows like Trump obviously gives presser like was talking it out. But like that starts to cheat.

30:10Anyway, there's interest like flying around. It's not like a full flip like full market, but people are pumping stuff around again. And like Taylor also is in a great spot now. Hopefully he continues to stay there. And I think these other gaps have like gotten some in clothes and sort of come back to things. So it's it's healthier for sure. Yeah. It feels like, you know, I've been calling for the weekly close above the 50 week moving average on Bitcoin to like declare it bear market, not necessarily bear market over, but bottom is in. If you had to get so technically, of course, that hasn't happened yet. So that's the level that I've called out to draw a line in the sand. We haven't hit it. But do you think the bottom and Bitcoin is in? If the equity market stays like robust, yes. I think like the big ratio is like if there's like any material weakness in equities, like it'll take us like lower. And I don't know anything about where that's going. I have to think that that's the bigger driver right now. I mean, like there's a lot of tumultuous stuff sort of like going on and like you still

31:11have like a conflict in the least. You still have like pretty persistently high inflation. You still have like equities that are roaring higher because it's like a massive boom in to say I go deaf. And like that's like drawing a ton of money into the market. But like if that all stays good or gets better, like yeah, like I think we're the bottom there. But if you're worried to like get nasty, like no, like we're not going to. We just get to get dragged. Or everything else. We don't have that much to give to get back to the local bottom if there is like an equity blowout or something. So you're right. You know, if you're at, you know, 120, it's like now the 58 bottom was probably, you know, like a catastrophic, you know, risk off rally probably doesn't bring you all the way back down is my view. But you know, in the 70s, we're still just a hop-skip and a jump above the local bottom. You know, we're not that far. But I mean, yeah. That's that down six percent. Like where are we? Part right there. Yeah, I would think it's been so interesting to you. You talk about Robin Hood and Robin Hood chain, which, you know, I guess really launched in earnest only about a month ago and a month and a half ago.

32:14I saw that it's dramatically outpacing base for volumes on chain. Also there's a lot of stock token trading happening there now. What do you, this is one of the key medas. I feel like a couple of the others are like the social trading FOMO and POMP still quite to, you know, a lot of volume here. And then all the RWA kind of stablecoin stuff, you know, also still percolating, you know, the banks, building stuff and whatnot. Outside of the Bitcoin and Ether story, what do you make of Robin Hood's, you know, formal entrance here? Yeah. Robin, he's got a great position because they have like, obviously, their existing, like equities business and like, the rest of their brokerage and sort of business. So they're like uniquely in a great spot to like drag this stuff in and like have a user base already that can do it. I think it's great. Like I think the fact of the matter is like we're going to have like, equity is on chain, like it more robust. I mean, if you look at it, it's like a line straight up, right? Like it's growing like pretty rapidly. There's, we're in a weird spot. It's almost like, remember when Circle launched USDC and there was, there was really like

33:17four that got launched at the same time. It was like, GUSD packs, USD, whatever it was, USDC. And then the, who's the fourth one? The, oh, USD, which was like kind of like the combo of like, well, there was like four at once. And like you had the market was trying to figure out like which one they really wanted. And it was like consolidating. You kind of have that with the RWA right now where there's, like you've got wrapped versions of like, the video trading and like five different like ways. And they're not like, fungible. And like we're going to have to figure out what's going to be the winner. Robin Hood has like a really good ability to probably set that. And they might just be exerting that like power over it. I'm skeptical about Robin Hood and the chain longer term. But I think this is like a good way for them to push into it. I just don't know if they, like maybe they do want to just be like running like an L2 like forever. But I think they have a much better business of being like the tokenizer and just like pushing the assets out into the ecosystem and like running it all on their own L2 is

34:20like not the optimal path long term. That's my guess. I think they wanted to run a native token, but I don't think they want to be doing that either. Yeah, that makes sense. And you know, part of me thinks, you know, if you take the base versus hood chains as interesting examples, you know, at least I know coin bases moving away from optimism. But basically to because Robin Hood is an arbitraum roll up and optim, base is an optimistic roller or up, up chain roll up. And they're kind of like to coming at a similar product with the two L2s, but from opposite locations like coin base wants to bring with their tokenized stocks, which they've launched now. They want to like bring stocks to crypto natives that are their clients, whereas Robinhoods bringing cryptos and crypto tech to their stock clients. It's, it feels like Robinhoods, you know, it's, it feels a little easier to get the stock traders to trade tokens on a chain that may be the other way around. Yeah. I mean, think about like coin base is experience and significantly worse than Robinhoods

35:22because they've had to grow up in a world where they're constantly dealing with bear assets and the security and KYC and compliance like hey, like are just so high, the experience like stocks like everybody said this and like maybe they'll be able to get on par, but like Robinhood gets to approach it from the equity side where everything's gated and it's a lot easier to just sort of move people in and out and move funds and the experience is a lot better and it's like obviously like a lot bigger and now they can just sort of like move into crypto. So it's a little bit easier for them, but like I don't know anybody who's suddenly like oh, I want to go trade equities on coin days, but I know people that like although trade crypto on Robinhood, like I think that's an easier sort of, and we've seen that, right? Like I mean, the market performance of the two companies is drastically different. Yeah, that's true. And you know, we mentioned by the way you said that hype had been making new all time highs, you know, in the president, it was sort of on the back of the innovation advisory council at CFTC that they had that meeting at the White House two weeks ago or so.

36:24The president said that he's looking forward to hyper liquid coming on shore in a fully legal and compliant way. That's a paraphrase was pretty close. What do you think that means? Like what do we, if they do, like what would that look like? You think for hyper liquid? You're going through cracking, then this is already happening. I saw there's a, there's early, yeah, I don't know, I can't confirm the story. Something of like they may be working with crack to do that, but would that be like putting? You just trade hyper liquid pipes through a crack and account. That's what I guess it would look like. Yeah, so you're like KYC through crack and but like it touches the existing like hip three liquidity or something like that, like a front end for hype. Exactly. Same way you trade it through like Phantom, you're just doing it through a KOTC account. I mean, it's like bullshit, right? Like I mean, like hyper liquid exists for the US already. You know, VPN, like it's not like this is like a, this is just like a, this is like finance US existing where it's like, oh, like we put the US people here. But it's like, yeah, I think because it only, it only works for hype if hyper liquid,

37:26if they can, if the KYC front end access can, can get to the actual global liquidity, right? It has to be siloed liquidity. That's probably not a one thing. No, it won't be. It won't be. They're going to put you to the main. Yeah, it's all going to be the same shared order book. And like stock tokens, you know, the ones that are like, whether they're rappers or, you know, what we did with our native token, like nativeish native stock token, is your sponsored one. Like, those are kind of like spot, like, do you think that like people, if you got like stock perps on chain, like hype, because like perps are doing all of this volume, so much more volume than the sort of spot stock tokens. Like is there space for stock tokens versus stock perps? Yeah, definitely. Right. So I think they'll cheer for markets. Like, there's people who want to specate on the price and just people that like want to like own the asset, right? And I think we haven't really moved into the people that want to own the asset, like a ton. Think about it like this. So why is tether so big? Like tether so big because there's demand for dollars internationally, right?

38:27Then they're specifically demand for dollars for people in jurisdictions that can't natively hold dollars for like whatever reason, right? Like they can't legally like have like US banking. There's like capital restrictions on currency, whatever. But there's clearly a massive demand there, right? Like I don't know what tether is right now, but a hundred billion dollars would have had it is. There's obviously as much demand if not more for US equities for people that can't like structurally hold them, right? Like at minimum, you have a hundred billion dollars in tether that is really not earning any yield, right? Like it's like it's a poor product. It's also a good one. Because they don't pay you anything. They're just like a way to like not lose money in your whatever other currency. But if that money is able to like hold equities, like that's like a massive win, right? Like if you can suddenly be like, I don't have to own US dollars. I can own the S&P 500. Like I'm going to just switch my stable coins into that. I think that's like the massive market. I think that's like a gigantic opportunity. I have no idea how like even like figure out what that is, but demand for like US equities from people that structurally can't hold them is probably gigantic.

39:30It's probably trillion dollars. Yeah. And I think that's going to come through spot and you're going to see that. And I think it's going to be and it's also by the way, it's a great thing for US companies, right? Because you effectively get all of this like capital that has no governance, right? And like they are just going to agnostically like for money into. It's great. It's a win for everybody. Yeah. I think it is too. I think that's going to be a gigantic market. Yeah. It's one of the things that makes me think a lot about hood and their chain because it seems like it's a lot easier to say take profits from crypto trading or even I know there's launch pads and I think some call ponds and there's a lot of meme coins trading on hoods chain now. I mean, this is this is the sort of the show. It's like it's fun and it's like whatever, but it's not it's not the like eye on the cries. But I think you can make it from that venue like the Robin Hood chain. They may be sort of knocking on the door of solving an interesting thing, which is the overlap between the two asset classes because you could like, you know, trade cryptos on Robin Hood

40:32chain and then take profit into like equities more easily potentially. I think it's quite interesting. Yeah. But I think you got to think about it in terms of like the market that isn't even supplied right now and how big it is. Yeah. That makes sense. I read it like it's you need like a $3,000 minimum balance in India to even open a brokerage account, which is just, you know, out of reach. And then could you even trade like you said, I would guess who not. Yeah. I don't know. Not easily. You have to be rich basically. Right. So we know that there's we know that this is sort of like proven because stablecoins are so big that there's like clearly just like a massive demand first things that exist outside the traditional system for stable products, let alone like an investment product. Yeah. You made a good point about it. The person who's going to win this is like the person who's able to like get overseas and just like on boots and the ground sell this stuff. Yeah. I think that and that is kind of the tether model too with their store fronts and their,

41:36you know, it's great. And it worked. Yeah. And you mentioned that as sort of an analogy as to how the multiple versions of non-fungible stock tokens might play out that the tether by the way is 183 billion and USDC's at 74 billion. And that market, the stablecoin market is really like a 60, 30, 10 market where like one winner has more than half and you know tether and USDC is 30 and then there's a tale of 10, you know, people in the 10%. Oh, I've quite a lot of factors. I'm so bearish all the like long tale of like stablecoins. I just think it's just like there's such a network effect with them that I just don't think people care about any of the other ones. And people like, well, it's like talking about yield and nonsense. I just like don't think it matters. Yeah. I think there's like on chain use cases, but like those aren't nearly as big as, you know, the banks and the stock price system. The only one that's gotten any big is the USDE, but that's not really a stablecoin. That's like a trade that's packaged. Yeah. That's more. It's like a great product. It's just like that really a stablecoin. It's just like they took a yield product and the cost of a stablecoin.

42:39True. Yeah, they make the share and the fund kind of traded out dollar basically. So, but one of the big debates in stock tokens is the form that they should take. And you've got like X stocks and on do and Robinhood and Coinbase all doing this like wrapper model where it's like, you buy a stock or you buy the token and they usually either broker or something to buy the underlying stock and they put it in SBV. And then the token itself is like a share in the SPV and then you face the SPV is token older, which is really good for scale. Right? So, you know, it's like a scale because they don't need like issue approval, for example, but it's also very clearly some form of regulated activity what they're doing. It's kind of like running like a single asset ETF, which you know, you wouldn't. So the questions that the SEC have been, you know, there's this innovation exemption pending for how to do these things legally in America for Americans. And you know, the other sort of wing of the bird is the issue response or where the

43:41issue or itself uses a transfer agent and like either issues it or provides for the conversion. And I feel like, you know, one of the big arguments against the wrapper ones is sort of what you were saying of like, well, do I want like an NVDA seed? Do I want NVDA like R? Like which version of it? And my view is like the market will probably even if those are allowed to widely proliferate and they are widely preferring now offshore, that it'll probably still be okay. And the market will converge on like a 60, 30, 10 type of, you know, you know, you know, we find it who should, I don't know if they will, but who should do the winners should just be the stablecoiners version. It should just take their model and just be like, this is dollars. Now this is like equities and they should just like get in the token of the nation of those things game. Like they already have a distribution in the branding. Yeah. I mean, in those, those wrapper models are kind of just stable coins of stocks, basically, you know, it's really a similar business and a day. Yeah. I think that'll be really interesting to see. You know, I wanted to talk about another one of my favorite topics, Dan, Proof of Reserves.

44:45It's still going great. It's going great. For God's sake. Why, why only just announced today that it's adopting chain link to help improve proof of reserves or something as a for its own stablecoin. And, but there have been a bunch of backsliding. I saw Deribit is done with its proof of reserves. I guess because they're probably getting folded into coin bases now. Right. It discontinued it. I think, well, we long ago discontinued it. Proof of calm has discontinued it. So it seems to me like the ones that are still doing it, Kraken still doing a really good one. The exchange is the first one. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it's no, but Jed don't do it. I mean, it's, it's one of the best ones. If we start scorecarding them. And, but don't it seem like the best exchanges are still doing it and the less, I would say, less, the best exchanges are the ones not doing it.

45:46And does that kind of like undermine my whole point about wanting it? I just don't even keep track of it. I think that's like, and I don't take most people do. Yeah. The problem is, it was sort of like window dressing and didn't point mad. It's like the, we have a risk event. We talked about it and then like we get over it and then they forget about it. It's just like doing this in perpetuate. He's from Mt. Gocks. This has been like a thing. Yeah. We just, we're doomed to do it forever. The other big story in, yeah. But stuff like hyper liquid is verifiable always, right? So like, you have like sort of that constant proof of reserve model for like the full decks is. Yeah. Some, some of the like newer products and protocols have adopted sort of principles of proof of reserve in their designs. Yeah. Exactly. Indirectly. I mean, this isn't really POR, but Tether also completed its first financial audit. Big. People said it couldn't be done. I know. And I remember, I think you were really the first one talking with Matt Walsh on Castle

46:48Islands podcast went in 2020. Oh, I can't. No, no, no, no, I just want to circle. Yeah. So you were one of the first ones to tell the market that indeed you had created and redeemed a bunch of Tether and it was indeed possible. And so I remember, yeah. I remember it nearly. And I was like one of your sort of breakout like public moments because at the time, bit finnexed and the hated moora at all academic paper that has been widely disproven. Oh, the Texans guy, right? Yeah. Yes, they were all ledging that Tether was printing money out of thin air and using the fake stablecoin supply to buy Bitcoin and prop up the Bitcoin price. And I think you were the first person to come out and say that actually like you had created and redeemed for real money many times. So what's your reaction now to this audit? To be fair, I was kind of just getting the opinion that like it was never going to happen because like Tether didn't care anymore.

47:49Like I think it would be we were getting it wasn't demanding it really. Right. There was like no, like yeah, people were chirping but like nobody really cared, right? So like there was no impetus to like have to get it done. But I do think how low it like as a source of pride was like I have to eventually get this done. So no, I'm not surprised. It probably could have been done a long time ago. Just nobody wanted to take the heat, right? Like nobody wanted to be, you didn't want to be the person stamping that thing. Right. There's just like a, it's a bad business bet. Yeah, I think. Yeah. That's totally right. And they had had like what their attestitians and whatever else, but it was never at this level. I think to me, this is sort of also a sign of the times because they're going to have a USAT apparently, right? That Bo Heinz is running their, which is kind of, that seems like financial. That's where it's the same. Who is this for? Who is this, this product just to like tell regulars you have it? Like I don't, I don't understand the market. Yeah.

48:50Because if it can't like convert and you know, stand on the shoulders of the tether, the USAT supply, then it's, it's the pitfall we were talking about with hyperlip, but also if it can't connect to hyperlip, what's underlying liquidity, it's like finance US. Right. And like I can use tether. I mean, US person like what is the wide, why do I need this other tether? Yeah. What am I getting that I'm not currently? I got to know. And I think, yeah, under the Genius Act, US regulated, uh, if I forget what the column in the Genius Act, but like basically like VASPs, right? Digital asset service exchanges. They have like a three year, um, period where they can just keep offering all, including non-genius, genius compliance tables, but then they would have to, I believe switch off those without. Who say who switches off like crypto exchanges in the US basically service providers, I believe like coin belts can't take a USBT deposit. I think at some point. Now, but then you could easily imagine, uh, like OTC firms that are your principal traders

49:50that easily just swap between USAT and USDT to facilitate it, make it easy. Um, so it's not like a hard barrier. The, the statutory barrier is if you don't have a genius act compliance, I don't know, stamp license, whatever, and call it, you can't be used for interbank settlement. So it's basically like the banking system couldn't use tether. Um, they would, that's really like a problem. Like, for tether, I don't think so to your point, right? Like they, they've been experts at onboarding, you know, the global population to dollars, not to serving Americans. So it, it seems like they had still fine. Um, I, do you think, um, what about the chain wars, you know, Ethereum, Salona, Monad, um, where we're, what's your view right now on the L one? Where it still feels like a fair market, right? Like there's just some, there's just not enough incremental inflow of like investment to like satiate everybody and it's just like, yeah, that's hogging the pain. So in my opinion, there's like, that makes sense.

50:52There's not had, there's been almost no real funds raised. You saw a handful, but they're like multi-purpose funds now. Like the, the crypto pure, like, bet is just sourd. So hard over the last three, four years. That is just big. Everybody's like fighting for that incremental dollar. So it's hard. It's hard, right? It's very hard to be a new token out there the last two years. Yeah. And, and you had that sort of Salona, uh, not necessarily on metrics per se, but sucking air out of Ethereum's, uh, sales over the last couple of years, but that's come down a bit. But everything's still 50% off the highs of 21. Like, you know, yeah, and then the dad's like, but it's like, we have not had material enough inflows to like, hit high. And you can make the argument. We just like flew way too high in 21, which is fair. And we did, but like the subsequent level of investment in Mac that pays. Yeah. I mean, um, Ethereum, it grazed an all time high in five.

51:53If you count the staking yield, it hit it. So if you like, adjust it in, yeah, like in a, you know, what are the call and stocks? Like a total value of the adjusted. Yeah. Divinity. Yes. Yeah. But if we also adjusted it for inflation, it didn't get close, actually, I believe. But there appeared a declation. Oh, you're saying it's a dollar. No, yeah. No, like for the dollar, if we readjust the dollar, compared to like equity that got smoked. So it's like, yeah, it's, it's just been topped. And I think like, look, like you do this for, like, let's say you joined in 2020 or 2021 or it's basically like you basically have like made no money, like operating in the majors. And like, I don't know, you've seen a giant bull market inequities. You've seen like people randomly stumble into an AI company and make a fortune. Like it's tough, right? Like that eats it people. You see your peers raising huge amounts of money. Like that's got to, if you're like a crook of fun, operate, like just driving you fucking mad. So like, yeah, you throw like data centers, AI, like robots into your thesis and all the sudden,

52:56the, you know, ATMs open again. So yeah, you see the, I don't know. It's tough. So I think that's like where you still see like the bear market. So is that like, you know, I've thought about this a lot and you know, you have like, I don't know, meta's like, you know, the ICO and then NFTs and then, you know, Web three, like we're talking about the orb and, and like ID was thought maybe would be a, a big run. And of course, it's sort of like degrades into like the mean coin trade. And now you've got like the launch pad mean coin era, right? Where it's like, you know, the mean coins used to be like a doge fork. Now it's like a coin that we launched like 10 minutes ago. Like, do you think that we need those sort of classic crypto models to come back? Like the ICO to reinvigorate or are we relying here on RWA stock tokens, things like that to reinvigorate chain usage. I did the IWA stuff to expect so much momentum. And it's just like such a clear like possible like path. I just say I don't, I don't see any world that doesn't happen.

53:58Like there's going to be fighting because it's like touches on a regulatory point, but like it's just so inevitable. I really think that's like where it's all going. And I think that's going to have like a huge boom for all the out one. Yeah, they had, um, it's mostly on the theory, him right? Ultimately today or it's unknown, right? Like it's so small compared to how big it's going to get. I just think we're, if you like, threshold two years, maybe we'll do a pocket of two years. You can check it. Big me my words. Like I will have a ton of this like stuff mostly equities, but like even we'll be on a 15 come product like on chain and there's going to be a whole bunch of like different like product built to like service that stuff. So you can like functionally operate on chain outside of a brokerage. If you want to and like most people won't, especially US people, they get won't make a lot of sense and be better, but a huge chunk of the population it will and they'll be operating there. And I think that's going to like pull all the new pieces back into all these like because everybody's like, ah, there's so much block space. We don't need all this.

54:58It's like, listen, like this stuff can get bigger. Like I know you've all just like become so pessimistic about everything. But like there is a world that this like get back there. I think that makes sense. Like you know, one of the things I wonder about is that integration between the two. There's all these rules, you know, like for example, like trade reporting, right? Like when you sell stock on fidelity, they like send the trade into the trade reporting facility, the TRF as well as like Fennel blue sheets and all this other stuff, right? But like a lot of that stuff, the blockchain, it can be the, you know, system of record for, right? Yeah. Right. It's not that it seems like a meaningful, you know, improvement when you think about it that way. Um, another thing I wanted to ask you, Dan, you know, you, you have been trading this market for a long time. And so do you think, you know, I'm thinking back to like the 2017 ICO period, right? You were at circle then, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, there were so many fun ones and humorous, tragic, exciting stories around that period.

55:58The SEC just released a proposed regulation crypto assets, read crypto. It's formal proposed rulemaking, but it creates a new regulated way to for an is for a project or an issuer to issue non security crypto assets. It's effectively illegalized. I see. Yeah. Enhanced version of ICO. Yeah. One of the thing, you know, not I'm excited about this because one, the ICO was like one of the first, I think really good ideas that crypto had, you know, after Bitcoin of, you know, you could raise funds in a more egalitarian manner. You could, um, so, you know, distribute your in the case of like a new blockchain, your, your blockchain assets more widely like where Satoshi just mind them and ETH had a pre-mine allocation like the ICO had like a more democratic concept, could disintermediate VCs. Obviously like there was very like no regulation and a lot of that, uh, benefit accrued solely to the token issuers at the expense of, you know, retail or

57:00rumour in some cases, they're outright scams or just failures. Do you think though that if, if this thing can be implemented in a way that is enticing to crypto, that we could see a resurgence, you know, of, yeah, I think from good new projects, but also to like long island blockchain company. Yeah. It'll get it'll get it'll get stupid again. The problem is right now there's just like, like, people are so negative on tokens that like nobody wants to do it because it's like just like a net negative issue. It, but once that changes and you only need a couple of them to like do all right, like change that sort of that. Then it's like everyone's like doing it and it just like snowballs again. So like, yeah, I think that's going to happen. But like right now, people are just so negative on tokens. Yeah. But like this is not on, this is not like 2019 was like this, right? Like everyone was like nobody's ever going to issue a token again. It's over and then like you change the data. So like, it's nothing's permanent with this stuff and it goes in waves. Yeah. Do you see any catalysts in the near term here that are not like macro, you know, crypto macro equities related that could take us higher or lower like in crypto? I still think it's going to be the RWA stuff pulling in. I like really think that's going to be big.

58:01I think that's like the single biggest thing going on. I think we got some headache because you've got to look figure out the bright form and somebody's got to get a nurse and some of it's got to like get like it going. But like once it does, it's just going to take off. Are you guys doing investing on the theme a lot or, you know, what, what have been your focus is lately? It's, I mean, it's kind of hard on the investment side. Like a lot of these things are like, you can like, you can just like buy Coinbase or Robinhood, right? Like they like exist or circle. If you think they're going to like get in the business. I mean, we own a position in on though. Like that's like sort of the one token that that's like out there on it. But otherwise like we're more interested in the second order of fact. We think that's like where you'll be able to like crypto natively sort of like make one money. Like where these things live? What do they do to like fees? Like what products like actually get used on top? Like is it become this is a boom for Abe because suddenly everyone has like token. That's what means that they're like lending out and a sec lending business builds. And like that's like a much more material sort of thing. Like we're looking at sort of all that stuff where people want to like borrow against it.

59:02Like that will be secondary effects of like stuff. I think I'm back. Backpack in particular. We're not an investor, but they seem to be like tackling this like great and like have like a big lead on it. So yeah, that's like a possible. I think they never token. It's unclear like that's like how you want to buy it. But so there's ways. But yeah, that's like how we're in and now. And you know, anything that you're thinking about in cryptocurrency or politics. I know you've been involved in some packs in the past, you know, a lot of changes in the last two years. It hasn't. It hasn't though. Like I mean, I'd like to see the cloudy. I get through. Do you guys in which you're a guy? I mean, you guys are pretty weird. I was there, right? Wasn't like the galaxy guy in Tyler Williams. Yeah, he left. Tyler was the senior counselor to the Treasury Secretary for Digital Assets. Yes, he just left after I guess eight months or so, which is, you know, I would just say that's a normal time period for someone to work in the government and then get back out of the private sector. Like, you know, the government's a tough job.

1:00:03I work. I think the odds are pretty low here now, to be honest. I think I've publicly said it was 10% odds now because it didn't get done before the August recess. There's still a chance I'm well aware of ongoing negotiations and back channeling. But you the problem is and people are like, oh, you got this session in September and October. And I'm like, sir, that they come back into session on Tuesday, September 15th. And I think they leave the first week in October. So you're talking about two and a half weeks, basically. And who knows they did just cut a deal to keep the government open through the election. So that that session in September will not be bogged down by a government shutdown. Thank you. You know, thankfully. So, but yeah, I think that to me clarity now is pretty well priced. I think Paulie and Calche have it at like 16, 17% by end of the year, which I think is, you know, I'm a little bit even more pessimistic than that, but call it like price to perfection. So I like this because I like that it is that the market is aware that the odds are low

1:01:05because it feels to me like the downside impact of, you know, a failed vote if that's what happens or no vote is relatively capped. And so you're looking at like a possible huge upside catalyst with like minimal downside. If nothing happens because the market's kind of wise to the fact that it's unlikely. Yeah. That makes sense. I'd like to see it though. I would. Let's see something. But I don't know what you do. Well, anything else that's peaking your interest here, Dan? What are your old OG trade for you? You've been trading this market. What are your old? I'm gone. There's like, there's nobody left. It really is. Like people have moved on. Yeah. I'm thinking about like, you know, like D. Jen Spartan and flood and Kobe and and loomed are like, where are all those guys? I can't look up there. What are your thoughts on Kobe going to Coinbase like running product there now? I think it's good for Coinbase. Like Coinbase. I think they need a change in management. I mean, like the fact that the stock has been so bad over so long and like,

1:02:07they're getting their lunch eaten in multiple areas. Like if you circle shouldn't exist. I'm happy it does. But like the Coinbase shouldn't just take it on entire business. Like the fact they didn't is wild to me. Like things like that, like they're letting Robin Hood just run laps around them. Yeah. It's been, it's a fast. The Coinhood chart is a fastening one to look at the the pair trade there. They're similar, but like opposite in various ways, which is really quite a, and yeah, I mean, Hood has had it been on a run, you know, or at least, you know, was. Well, Dan, I really appreciate your time as always, sir. And, you know, until next time, I'll have you on again. I always like hearing your thoughts. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to Galaxy Brains, the weekly podcast from Galaxy Research. I'm Alex Thorn, head of Firmwide Research at Galaxy. Follow me on x at Intangible Coins, follow Galaxy Research on x at G L X Y Research. Read our written reports at galaxy.com slash research. And don't forget, if you like Galaxy Brains to like and subscribe on your favorite podcast platforms,

1:03:11like YouTube's Spotify, Apple podcasts and more, we'll see you next time.