Cultivating Humility for Lasting Influence

0:00Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Podcast. We're real committed today and really in every episode to add value to you for an exchange. That exchange is as we want you to go multiply value to others. Today I think we'll be able to really dig into something that's helpful for leaders and that is how to cultivate humility for lasting influence. I've watched a lot of leaders, Chris and Chris Godis with me today. I've watched a lot of leaders that lead with a lot of certainty, a lot of confidence, all desirable traits. But there's also these leaders that know how to employ and use humility. And so we're going to talk about that. I can't wait for John to share with us about cultivating humility. I can't wait to come back and break it down with you. But what is a leader that's been in your life that really demonstrated humility

1:00and what was it about that leader that was demonstrating humility so well? I love the question. I actually think about a leader that I know from a distance and I've watched. And it's interesting that when you step back and you watch somebody when they don't know you're watching them and they still live out that humility, I think they got it. And this leader could, as access to any resource, doesn't have to meet with people that have just joined the team, whatnot. But I watch them walk in the back of the offices and start connecting with shaken hands, looking, pacing themselves through the people that have just joined the team that maybe are an hourly employee and really make it about them, then about him. And so that's the leader when you ask me that question, it comes to mind and an action that he lives out that I can tell is it's true. He's bathed true in humility as a leader. Yeah. When I thought about that

2:01question, I thought, you know, John exhibits a lot of humility can't believe that the success he's had or the people that's been impacted by his life's work. But probably the leader that has exhibited humility more for me than anyone else is my dad. My dad was an elected official in his denomination. He was, he had reached the apex of some things. Man, there was always this quietness and this humility that I would watch my dad in very tense situations. I would watch my dad just handle it with an incredible amount of humility. And I'll be honest with you, many of our podcast listeners viewers may not know this, but my grandparents, my dad's parents could not speak or hear. So my dad never had the privilege that you and I have of having a conversation with his mom and dad never. And my dad never got really good with the dectology, which is language with your fingers, right? Or your hands. So he relied on his sister most of the time for his interaction with his parents. A lot of him. And I always thought that my dad's quietness, his slow to give a

3:05decision was because of that, but the further I get away from his lifespan and the more that I want to model the leadership that my dad gave, the more I don't think it was necessarily that, but it was a quiet humility that he picked up from his parents and not being able to hear everything right in a room, not being able to respond like most of us could, but still having a presence, a force and a leadership that made a difference in my dad's life, right? And so John's going to talk today about cultivating humility, about having a lasting influence. And probably in this leader that you mentioned, and certainly in my dad, 88 years, and the people that came out to his moral service were all about his humility was the impact. And so I want to have lasting impact like that. We all do. That's why we're listening to the podcast. I want to have it. And I believe John's going to give us a key. And you and I are going to get a breakdown that key

4:06afterwards and that key to lasting impact is humility. So here's John, enjoy, grab some notes. By the way, if you want to download our bonus resource, if you would like to watch this on YouTube, if you would like to take advantage of some of the things we'll talk about throughout our show today, you can go to Maxwell podcast dot com forward slash cultivate. And you'll be up to speed with all of the resources. All right, here we go. Here's John Maxwell. The most important ingredient in a leader's life, the most important quality is humility. When you were a person of humility, when you're marked, when you're marked by anything, you become marked in a meaningful way. And I don't want you to miss those two words, meaningful way. We're all marked when difficulties hit us. When adversity comes, we're all marked. We're

5:07all changed. We're all out of our comfort zone. So the question is not, are you going to be marked? The question is, are you going to be marked in a meaningful way? Meaningful means useful. We're going to be marked in a useful, a good way. Meaningful way. If you have humility, you'll get the best out of the markings. It'll be something that will be purposeful to you. It'll be something that will be helpful to you. It is something that will grow you. If you have humility, you'll be marked in a meaningful way. If you lack humility, you'll be marked. But it won't be purposeful. It reminded me of the statement that when adversity comes to us, some people get better and some people get better. Same adversity, same issue, just a total different reaction. Humility gives us the opportunity to respond in a useful way. What does that mean?

6:11I think of Jim Collins when he wrote the book Good to Great. I remember he talked about that level five executive. And he began to talk about greatness. And we all know this. But he said greatness says there's a paradoxical blend of about level five leaders. And they have a personal humility in their life. And then they have a professional will. And he was basically saying that all of the great leaders, they have a professional will to build a great company and be people of excellence and do the thing that they are purposefully trying to accomplish to help you. He said they're very professional in their will. But they're very humble in their personal life. And he was saying it's the perfect blend. It's what I call, I like this, the balance blend. It just keeps us on course. Humility allows us to be teachable. Humility allows us to have

7:13a spirit of wanting to learn, wanting to grow, willing to change. I read a marriage therapist and what she wrote was very interesting. She said the most important quality, when you look for a potential mate, she said the most important quality is to find somebody that has a desire to keep learning and growing throughout the relationship. Well, when I saw that, I thought that's not a good marriage counseling. That's good business counseling. That's good friendship counseling. I mean, you want to have a relationship with someone that they're continually learning, they're continually growing. They're expanding. We want people on our team to be talented. Gotta have talent. And so when you think of talent, I mean, if you're a track coach and you need a high jumper, you don't need seven people who can jump one foot. You need one person who can jump 17. So talent, we've got to have it. Humility is comfortable with correction.

8:16Humility is willing to reconsider. Humility seeks learning as much as it wants to lead. Humility values the pause to make adjustments and pivot. That's the word we've heard a lot about. During the pause, I'm going to live my values. During the pause, I'm going to learn and apply what I'm learning. During the pause, I'm going to lead people with hope. Okay, during the pause, I'm a leader. I'm going to look for opportunity because almost every crisis has major ridiculous opportunities within it. And during the pause, I'm going to take better care of myself. I not only say humility allows us to be teachable and humility allows us to reflect and adjust during the pause. I just say to you, humility allows us to serve others. Now, I don't have much more time left with you today, but I'm going to read you one one thing.

9:20Just one quick thing. Alan Ross says, humility means knowing and using your strength for the benefit of others on behalf of a higher purpose. The humble leader is not weak, but strong. He's not preoccupied with self, but with how best to use his or her strengths for the good of others. A humble leader does not thank less of himself, but chooses to consider the needs of others in fulfilling a worthy cause. I love to be in the presence of a humble leader because they bring out the very best in me. Their focus is on my purpose, my contribution, my ability to accomplish all that I've ever set out to accomplish. Hey podcast listeners, many of you listening right now would probably love the autonomy that comes with owning your own business or becoming a coach that helps other businesses succeed. Well, we have a phenomenal strategy where you are 100% in control of your

10:25own business, earning income on your own terms, and have access to the people, tools, and resources you need to build a thriving leadership development business. When you become a Maxwell leadership certified team member, you join a global community of entrepreneurs led by our expert team of mentors and faculty, including John C. Maxwell. You'll also get one of the top leadership certifications in the world next to your name, giving you the boost you need to get started. Visit us online at MaxwellLeadership.com forward slash join the team to find out more. What a great lesson Chris. I look at your leadership to be honest with you and you've got a quiet sense of humility that I really respect. So I'm really excited about breaking this on down with you today. See as Lewis said humility is not thinking less of yourself is thinking of yourself less.

11:28I love that quote on humility. I think it's 100% right. Most people think humility is not thinking very much of yourself. This introvert and kind of quiet and self-defacing kind of leader. That's not it at all. There's a strength to humility and John certainly gives us that perspective. Yeah. This quality, this characteristic that John's talking about. It doesn't make the flashy headlines. What I loved about what you said in the opening going back to that is but it has great longevity. It does, man. And like that's if we're thinking about growing our influence over time and we're thinking about being able to compound that. That's where that comes from. I think the leaders that you've seen do that I think have had that humility that allow them to kind of last through all things. We can all think about or imagine a leader that blew up in the media, blew up in the organization maybe got but that arrogance and that that defensiveness,

12:29that's the quickest way for a leader to kind of fall apart and not have long-term influence. And that's what we're talking about. We're not I think what at the root of what John's trying to get here is how do we have long-term influence and that longevity of it. And so I want to talk about this word and unpack it a little bit from a leadership perspective. And I want to just write out the shoot, say to you, how has this attribute shaped your leadership and all that you're responsible for and you watch over time, long time you've been with John and running these companies, increased your influence year after year after year. You know it's bathed in that. In your own words, this is not a very great question to pull out humility in yourself because I'm asking you to talk about yourself. But how has it shaped your leadership? Well, so I go back to I've really had two environments that gave me enough latitude to grow into the leader I wanted to become. It's been two. It's been working alongside my dad that I mentioned

13:33in our pre-comments today and working with John Maxwell. Two of the greatest leaders in my life. Right. I got to serve alongside them as the second man. I learned a lot from that first time about humility. When my dad was humble, I wasn't. Man, I had the ball in my hands. I had the bull by the horns. I had the brain. I had the horse is ready to go. And I was charging in my little world. I always say I was a big fish in a small pond. I was charging success and getting accomplishment that my dad never got. And he was an elected official for over 50 years of his life. Man, I was on a fast track faster than him, raised more money. I was on a track. And I knew it. And I let that become my identity. I let my success become my determining factor. I allowed the opportunity that was given me because I was born on third base. I was born a coal. And in our world, that was a big, that was a thing. And I allowed being born

14:37on third base. Dictate to me a level of confidence that my wife, when Stephanie and I got married, she went, man, I always thought you were confident. I just realized you were, you were a legal centric. You were cocky. You were not confident. And I exhibited confidence, but it wasn't. I believe that when someone couples certainty slash confidence with humility, there's an approachability there. But when you do not couple egotism, which you can't with humility, that's exactly what it comes across as narcissistic. It comes across as dictatorial. It becomes across as this untouchable thing that will crash and burn. So back to your question. I really think, I said this at the beginning, I think the further distance I've gotten from my dad's lifespan, he's been gone now for eight years. I think the further I get from him, I realized that his longevity was because of his humility. I love this about John Maxwell.

15:39We will get calls from Uber, Uber successful people. And John gets off the phone and I'm in the car with him in some city and some rental car doing something. And he goes, can you believe that person just wanted to talk to me? And I though, yeah, I can believe it. You're the fricking, you're the fricking excuse my language. You're the fricking leadership guru. Of course, they won't talk to you. He goes, I just cannot believe they've read my book. There is a humility. And John does not come across as necessarily humble about his passions and his accomplishments. There is a quiet humility in John. And my dad, Chris, I will say in you, that gives you a sure, fire. John says this, the most important quality in a leader's life is humility. That's the first statement in your show notes. If you downloaded them, the most, this is the leadership guru of the world giving us insight right here. It's all in humility. And oh, let me just talk because he lives at this out so much so you and I yesterday were in a meeting. And our team brought some ideas to you and how we want to honor them in certain meetings. You're like, hold, hold on a minute.

16:45If all four of us are in this meeting, one of you fired the next day, we're not doing that. Can't be the John Maxwell show. And that's what it was. And you just that example just popped in my head going, yeah, at the core, because you know, I'm better than most that he's the humility is there. And I would put him in a position that would feel so uncomfortable because it was about him. And no wonder why he says, this is the most important part. And he lives that out. He does. And I want to live it out. And you ask a very penetrating question to me, where did I learn the humility that thank, thank you for saying you recognize a little bit of humility? It came from a life of no humility for the first 10 years of my leadership in the other environment. Accomplished great things. Accomplished some of that. I wrote down, this is what I wrote down. I wrote in that journey or tell us about you were going after success. 100% you were going after this and Mark Cole show. And it's what I wrote down. And now that shift has more and it's moved into the influence, right? And the long term influence and the impact with other people not success.

17:51But let's talk about the word longevity. Man, I crashed and burned in a epic in New York, Manhattan perspective. And just heard a lot of people crumbled. And the longevity wasn't there. The success trajectory was there. The accomplishment more than even my father had accomplished in his life span at the same ages that I had accomplished was not there. But guess what also wasn't there with my dad, no crashing and burning. The longevity of his influence is remarkable. The same thing with John. Consistency compounds, humility establishes longevity. That's great. I love that. I think Bade than this. John mentioned a little bit. You talk just briefly about it a few minutes ago. I remember you coming to our team or leadership team. I think it's probably as soon as last year. And you said, you know, there's two things that John and I are talking a lot about right now. And we think it's it's one of the areas that leaders need to improve in. And this is at the root of this is humility. And you guys were talking about we

18:55need leaders to be coachable and responsible. Yep. And how does that play into that humility? Right? Like because that's that's almost an indicator if they're not that they lack humility. In my mind, just processing with you and those that are our viewers and are listening. But you got to have those two things as he talks about even in here to be able to show humility is to be coachable to step up and take responsibility and to understand by doing that, you will increase your influence. That's not the reason. That's not the motive. But it's not about success in that moment. It's about that influence level. So just talk to me a little bit about why you and so often we're talking about those two words last year. Yeah, you know, so coachable really comes in when you're marked, you become marked in a meaningful way. John talks about that. The idea of coachable means that I take a second chair perspective. I take a student perspective. I take

19:59a posture that somebody has something to teach me. So that one really links very naturally to humility. What doesn't is responsibility. So if you'll allow me, I'll let John's teaching talk a lot about being coachable, being an attribute of humility because you're 100% right. Those two do tie to humility. The one on responsibility is harder because when I take two responsibilities, we talk a lot around here about own it. Yeah, own it Chris this year. Yeah, CSG, by the way, if you don't listen to Chris's podcast, the Maxwell leadership executive podcast, you got to listen to it. It will absolutely enlighten you on executive leadership, how to be an executive in an environment where the team's looking for you, you looking to you for your leadership. The idea of responsibility means that I own it. It means that it's mine. If it's meant to be, it's up to me. If it's going to happen, I'm going to make it happen. If nobody else does it, it's just excuses don't matter. There's a swagger that comes with responsibility naturally that

21:02when it works, it's hard to be humble. It doesn't fit naturally for people that are responsible to also couple responsibility with humility. It's an astute question of yours to go, well, then how does that happen? Yeah, I think at 100% when it goes wrong, it's me. When it goes right, that's it. It's y'all. That's it. It's got to be coupled with that. If you're not careful, responsibility brings self-credit and self-in-good times, and then you get it. But here's what I found. People that are not humble, when something goes wrong, it's everybody else's fault. Yeah. And when it goes right, it's mine. That's right. And so there is a direct connection to it, but you have to fight responsibility with no excuses, humility. It's on me. I'm not going to give you three reasons why it's on me. It's just on me. Yeah. And then when it works, it's on y'all.

22:02It's all yours. Podcast family, listen, as a self-reflection question, how coachable are you? Yeah. How responsible are you? Yeah. Because what Mark just unpacked for us, both in from his leadership perspective, and then even John mentioned it here, is an indicator of how you're showing up with humility or not. Yeah. And then if you're brave enough, maybe ask somebody on your team or somebody around you to be able to speak into that. Because I think that I think that will lead to a great conversation about your humility. Because we all want lasting influence. That's what we want. And sometimes abruptly, we have to be shown that it's not about success, and we got to recalibrate, or sometimes it's just gradually, but we need to have those people in our lives. Yeah. One of the things I just mentioned about it being abruptly, adversity is one of the things that changed your trajectory when it came to this characteristic

23:02trait of a leader of humility. And so John talks about adversity in here, and he talks about we can either be bitter or we can be better. Yeah. Walk us through some adversity in your life as a leader to where you were headed down the bitter route. And you had to make a choice. And you had to choose to become better through that. And how did you do that? And where did you keep the focus? And what was the North Star? Walk us through that. I had a season in my life to where I really needed the support of those closest to me. I was lost. I couldn't figure life out. I wish I could, with my words, articulate the despair, the discouragement, the versus maybe depression. I don't know the adversity that I felt during that season. And I think about that often, Chris, in thinking about how I responded to it, I get phone calls often from people that has

24:08known me for many years often. I would say once every couple of weeks now with the little bit of connection that I have with John, the little bit of connection with this podcast and they're going, man, how did you go through a season in your life to where you are all alone and you didn't become better? And number one, it's got to be, it's got to be good to teaching from my parents. There's got to be something because I look back and I go, wow, man, I've seen a lot of people get better with those circumstances coming. And I didn't, I just did not feel that bitterness. I didn't feel that tug of bitterness. So some of that, John always talks about, he says, man, I won the parent lottery because of unconditional love. It's like that. I think in the idea of becoming better, I watched my parents get mischaracterized, mis-spoken about. They were in a public eye. And I watched them not let that become better. And so one is, I got the parent lottery and not choosing the

25:13better route. I think the other thing though, Chris, is I did go for some time, not wanting to feel favorable for some people in my life. If I chose to just not think of them, I chose to not pray for them. I didn't curse them, but I didn't pray for their blessing either. And I went through and John, John arrested me one day when he said, man, I had something in my heart towards somebody for years. And when I discovered it every day for a year, I prayed that that that person would get multiplied blessing. And he said, sure enough about September, October, that person started getting super blessed. And here's how I knew I had beat it. I got really excited for it. I felt it. No one ever knew that more. He started me. That was in 2013. 2014, I can remember this, to this day, a daily prayer I had for somebody in my life that I had had something against. I didn't have bitterness, but I certainly didn't want it to be better.

26:17Prayed it, prayed it, prayed it, prayed it. And it was a difference maker for me. But let me tell you this right here. Final point on this. I never allow myself to go unchecked in blind spots in my life. And here's what I mean. Stephanie, my wife and I were on a trip recently. And we had some people that we were acquainted with on that trip. And a subject came up that demonstrated unbelievable emotion from these people that we kind of knew. We knew them, but we didn't know them great. But when this opened up, it was visceral. It was, it was, it was tough. And it surprised us. Now, it didn't surprise us because we were best of, best of friends. We know the people, but we had a public idea of these people that was not right under the cover, something so visceral, something so angry. And I can remember when we left that environment, my question to my wife was not, wow, can you believe that about this person? He was my first question, Chris. Stephanie,

27:22is there any area in my life that when that is touched, an anger and a bitterness comes out to me, like we just did that. Interesting. It wasn't condemnation to them. It was this. And you know what, Stephanie says she said, Mark, my wife is like your wife, very critical when given the opportunity of me getting better. She says, I don't know of one. She says, I can't think of one. And would you believe that while she was saying I can't have one, it came to my attention that there was someone in my life that I didn't have bitterness toward, but I certainly did not want their, them to have the best. In other words, here's how I characterize it. Stephanie, there is an environment in my life that I still can't go back to that environment and say, I am better because of that environment. I don't have a lesson from that environment. This is three or four or five years old. I went, I don't have a lesson from that environment. And that concerns me because you can't have gratitude until you find something to be grateful for in a situation. And I am literally emotionally dead

28:27to that. I'm not better. Oh, happy day. I'm not better either. And that concern, because if you can't find a place to be better and have gratitude for being better, I think you're open for bitterness. And so I'm working on it right now. As you ask that question, I have an environment. I have a situation in my life that I can't look back and go, I'm grateful for that because I picked up that and that concerns me. So let's unpack this for just a minute. The tie to the humility part of this is not necessarily thinking less of yourself, right? But focusing that situation, that adversity, that learning, that I love the question to your wife, right? Do I do something trigger me and I get that bitter about it? Does the humility come in in a situation like that because you can put the other person, the other situation above kind of where you're at? How do you tie the humility part to that? Love this question. Love this question because I'm learning it right now. And there's

29:29an area. I can't do it. And it scares me. Here's what it is. There has got to be a spirit of gratitude in you that no matter how difficult it was, no matter how wrong you felt, there's something you picked up that you can be grateful for. And there is not, I can't think of, but one area in my life that I don't have gratitude of having gone through that one. Now, there may be a hundred. But right now, I'm experiencing one and it scares me because I believe the antidote to bitterness, that toast definitely is gratitude. And if I can find a reason to be grateful, no matter how you missed, no matter how you misused me, if I can find a spot, a reason, a spec. So you're saying I have a chance. If I can find a spec to be grateful for, I have an antidote for any bitterness that I'm going to wear off. This answers the very first question that I asked you. How has this character trait shaped your leadership? That's it right there. Yeah. The situations that we all go through in

30:33the adversity is looking for that gratefulness to be able then to lead to the humility of why we're there. Open hands in all situations. That's really good. That's, I appreciate you just being vulnerable enough to share that with us. So I want to move us towards the back end and as we kind of wrap up, I don't want us to leave without talking about this pause that John, you know, reemphasized. In both of you, you both you and I are our action oriented. We're like reemphasizing for nothing. What do you mean pause? And you made a couple of comments that I thought was really interesting. I want you to share with our viewers and our listeners about the pause and wear humility plays in that and how we go about doing that because for those of us that want to have longevity in our influence and we want to make a difference. We want to go to that significant place that we talk about. How do you do that? How do you manage that? Yeah. Welcome to the intervention of Mark Cole

31:33podcast. Glad you joined us. Mark, if you're not watching, Mark is on the couch. Yes. I'm going to count and he's going to write me a check after we're done is what's going to happen here. Goody absolutely has me on full display for all of you right here. So, so I'm not good with pausing. You just said that I would reiterate that you and I and other leaders. We just have this propensity to action. I think you're much better at it and I am by the way. I think that pausing demonstrates openness for others to have a better perspective, to have an openness. I know way too many leaders that if they would just practice the pause, they would cultivate the greatness in the people around them. But because they don't pause, then they don't realize the greatness around them and they end up being a lid on the organization. That reality probably helps me more than anything. I don't know if my pausing is as much humility. Is it fear of missing something? Yeah. But when you say

32:40though, that okay, so yes, it's a fear, but in those pauses and I would say watching you from the outside, I would say the answer is yes, but I want you to unpack this for me is that in those pauses, you become more teachable. You become open to reconsidering a perspective. You become open to maybe serving a certain individual versus just completely blowing past the pause and an act or move or change or I can fix this. But when you do the pause and you're open to that, that shows humility in your leadership. And back to even what we were talking about, we were kicking off about the arrogance and the defensiveness and that's the surefire way for a leader to blow up and not last long. It's going to be a lot of failures. But in that pause, I think how you are in that put what you're open to and what receiving tells a lot about your humility. It does. You know,

33:42we talked, we talked a couple of episodes ago, you and I talked about not only the propensity to move, but the passion to have answers and to get things done. Going back to that, I think in the pause, there is a sense of, there's a sense of expectation, criticism, self critique. That's what we were talking a lot about was criticizing ourselves. There's a bit of self critique that I've got to have the answers and I've got to see more and before. And if I pause, I'm not exhibiting more and before behaviors. I'm not exhibiting that I know the answers. Therefore, I'm exhibiting weakness, right? Somebody that's doing a pause with a humility, go back to what John said during the pause X, during the pause X, go back and listen to that. A leader that is self-confident and is exhibiting humility is not hearing all that self talk. They're leaning in to really get the answer. Often when I'm pausing, I'm pausing for effect, not for information. I'm pausing

34:45to show humility rather than to be humble. And I'm just telling you when John was saying that while I go, oh shoot, I now have the point. It's the same thing with good leaders ask great questions, right? John says, Mark, you got to slow down and ask more questions. You got to ask more questions. And so I do it, but you know what? I do it most of the time for a checklist, not for information, not from learning. I do it because I'm supposed to, not doing it because I get to. And though that dynamic is a spirit of humility that I'm convicted with if you can't tell from this lesson. And so I'm sitting here going, Mark, if you won't longevity in this thing called leadership, you better find and cultivate and aggregate humility. So I'm going to let you wrap up in just a minute before I begin to land the couch and you counsel me. Convicting is what that last five minutes is from our call. And I hope a lot of you are doing the same thing and taking time to reflect on what he just said. And here's where I want you to be reflecting.

35:46What is the motive behind what you're doing? Good stuff. Because this is the key. If we're talking about longevity for influence, one of the things that we hang our hat on here. And John has, he reaches this all the time, is there's a fine line between influence and manipulation. And what Mark just so vulnerablely shared with all of us is that he's doing it maybe at times. And I think all of us would say, well, we probably do it as well is to manipulate a situation. Makes me look like I'm thinking, oh, makes me look like I'm in whatever it is. And so John says, there's a fine line between the two. And it's your motive. So as you're in the pause and you're thinking about being teachable and reconciled. What's the motive for being in the pause? Is it for the outward effect? Or is it, hey, I don't really care what my image is. That's not why I'm doing this. I'm doing this because I want to grow 100% and that's what Mark is saying. He's checking himself right now in certain situations, going, why am I doing this? Is it because of the

36:51posture of owner and CEO of actually, or is it because I'm in growth mode? And when you can answer, it's in growth mode, you're living out humility. Mike drop Marvin. You got to save it for us. Marvin's one of our podcast family. He's a viewer listener. And he listened to the podcast acknowledge your humanness. By the way, we'll put that in the show notes at Maxwell podcast.com forward slash cultivate because that goes right along with the humility that we're talking about. Here's what Marvin said about that episode. I loved this point. Quote, leaders are not as good as they appear. In quote, because people have the tendency to put their leaders in pedestals like they're super hero, heroes sometimes. When we stop only to listen to ourselves, we begin to understand we're not very different from one another. The only difference is who we are leading. Marvin, thank you for that compliment of a great podcast. Boy, you captured it well with that. Go check that out. Hey, see you again next week. Until then,

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