‘Daredevil: Born Again’ Season 2, Episode 7 With Rob Mahoney

Hello, welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. And joining me today, it's my

Prestige TV podcast co-host, Rahmahoney.

Joe, thank you for having me. How do I appropriately channel the Mallory energy? Like, what do I

need to do to occupy this seat? What is, what would be your impression of a dragon's

creature? That sound like I see you trying to bait me. But I gotta tell you, you ask.

I cannot one up whatever it was that malted. I don't even know how to accurately describe it.

I come from like deep in her soul. Definitely. It's very important. At least from her diaphragm.

Like, there's a powerful vocal presence there for sure. Absolutely. We're going to be talking

about Daredevil episode seven, as well as a few other odds and ends right after this.

This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target, calling old trainers. Pokemon

is celebrating 30 years and the party is at Target. That's right. Pokemon and Target

are launching a limited time collection designed for trainers across every era of fandom.

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All right. Quick part of your reminders. What's going on the prestige feed? Let me just ask you

right off the bat. I mean, we're covering you for a week to week as you well know. We're

also mulling some other coverage options. Is there anything you want to float by the

people, Joe? Yeah, let's do this now. We both watch you watch the first episode. I did.

I watched the first two episodes of the new Apple show, Widow's Bay, which is a very

ringer versus friendly show. So I thought it would be okay for us to talk about it briefly

here. No major spoilers. No. But how what is the premise of this show, Rod Mahoney, Widow's

Bay? I would say it's the intersection of a small coastal town that is trying to keep

itself alive economically and also put itself on the map, combined with maybe the fact

that it's like fucking haunted. Yeah. And spooky as hell. Yeah. And you know, not an acute

salamie kind of way. Right. There's stuff in the fog. Yes. It seems like. Yeah. This

is Matthew Reese. It's a Stephen root, the great Stephen root. And it's from Kitty Dippos

who worked on Parks and Recreation. And you can feel it too. It's very parks and rec because

he's the mayor of this. I think it's an island town, right? So he's the mayor. He's trying

to get the reputation of the town up. And meanwhile, haunted things are happening.

So it is both very, very dry and funny and genuinely quite scary. There's something that

happened in episode two. There's shit out of me. So I was like, Oh, okay, this is seriously

scary. Not just the slight chills and thrills we get in episode one. So I guess the question

we're asking house of our listeners, any prestigious listeners who are tuning in, should

we cover this show on prestige? It is prestigious. I would say it is. We're putting in the window

and saying, do you want this? Yeah. This is appeal to you. Yeah. How spooky do you want

to be? We're just trying to see if it's something that people would want on the prestige

feed kind of way. We both really liked it. Yeah. Anything else to say about it? I think

the first episode to that parks and rec energy is one of the funniest episodes of TV. I've

seen so far this year in that very exact like small town people behaving like quite oddly

kind of way. I think it captures something really interesting. I can't wait to dive into

the scarier parts. It's very losty in its own way, but like it's less of a theory mystery

show and more of just a chills and thrills and funny show. It is like a 40 plus minute.

It is an hour long show. So it's not like a 30 minute. I don't know. I want us to cover

it, but I'm not sure there's enough there there prestige TV. It's botify.com. You have

any thoughts or feelings or hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. If you want to, you know,

if you're like, Hey, I'm listening to this show. Why not email this shows email? Would

it was Bay? Should we or should we not? Would you say you're more chill and client or

thrilling client? Great question. Chill. How about you? Yeah. I'm more of a thrill, but

maybe this is maybe this is the theme of our Angelie that makes the show go. This is why

we're match. All right. So on this feed, the one you're watching or listening to, we're

covering the mall finale. We had the great Sam Whittwer in the studio to talk about Darth

Mall and animated Darth Maul. Have you recovered? No, never shall. We'll do the Daredevil

finale next week as well. Also, the entire month of May, we're calling in front of the

pod month. We're having a bunch of people coming on the show to talk about the Punisher

Special Spider and War, which you and I will talk about in a second, Mando and Grogu,

the survivor finale, all kinds of stuff. We're having folks just like, we're just making

use of the extremely large sofa that we have for this show. So that's the plan for

May. Also, just a quick reminder, it's 38 days until the vampire list at premieres this

summer, our national holiday. Where's the board? Like, I feel like you need a whiteboard

with the countdown. Very, very visible. I mean, better yet dripping in blood or like

the lost countdown clock with some like hieroglyphics and stuff like that. See, the set deck

operations are really endless. They really are. So that's what we have coming up. Follow us

on all of our socials, house of our pod on Instagram and TikTok. Listen to the pod

on the pod catcher of your choice. You can watch us on YouTube, watch us on Spotify. We

will have a graphic coming up in a second. So if you're watching the show, that will help

you with what we're about to talk about. But other than that, do what you will. Hoppets

and dragons at gmail.com, spoiler warning, daredevil episode seven and a rob's ability to

gloat. And we'll get into that in our opening snapshot.

All right. So technically, we're here to talk about episode seven of daredevil

requiem, the hateful darkness. And you're such a pro that you binge all of daredevil season

born against season two season two. Season two, yes. Yeah. You would see season one,

you binge season two in order to hop on here. You're the king of binge,

Malar is the queen of binge. And I'm just honored to be in your royal presence.

This is a matriarchy society. Malar is on a different level than what I like to do in

Occupy. But this was an easy one, honestly. And part of that is, I mean, daredevil, even when

it's bad or messy. And I don't even think the season's in bad. Just a very watchable show

for me, like a very easy one to turn on. Before we get into daredevil, though, I thought I would

give you an opportunity. Welcome back to House of R. Couple months into the year. I thought we

would check in on the 2026 hype draft we did with you. Yeah. Sean Fantasy, Malarubin,

yours truly. Where my draft went kind of off a ledge in a way that I'm not that bothered by,

there was there's no chance I'm in a win the year. So let's just take me off the board and leave

you and Mal and and Sean still in contact. Okay. And just for people who are watching the pot,

I just thought I would throw the grid up on the board so people could see what shots people

called. It's up on the board right there. So people can see. And just checking in really quickly.

How you feel about your projectile marriage choice? You know, I just I'm really happy to see one

of my favorite novels adapted into a widely beloved movie. Yeah, you love reading fiction.

It's very important to make one of the best movies of the year couldn't be happier about it.

I just have such a history with this particular property. Right. Okay. So it came from the heart.

It did this all and not at all to personally injure Malarubin yours truly. Well, honestly,

it came from a place of being genuinely excited about a non-franchised sci-fi kind of story,

starring Ryan Gosling that I'm interested in. Yeah. And then also, yeah, like the did it also help

that maybe it was more personal to the two of you perhaps. Psychologically unbalancing is

something you like to do inside of it. I would not say that. I think so. I think everyone's seen

your work. It's not true. Did you enjoy the movie? Of course. Yeah. How could you not? Great.

Made a ton of money. Everyone liked it. Might be an awards contender. Great pick on your board.

Anything else that you feel particularly like vindicated about so far? Want to talk about the bride?

Uh, no comment. Okay. Do you see the bride? Actually, I've not seen it yet. My hype level,

honestly, I will not be deterred. I'm actually still excited to see it despite all of the commentary

about it. I really want to talk to you once you've seen it. I told you I saw a double feature with

Malarang Heights. One of the most unhinged days of my life. That's a decision you made. It is a

decision I made. I don't I think it only sort of improved my enjoyment of the bride rather than

detriment just for the contrast or for the overall. I would say right now until disclosure

take crashes and burns, the bride is the most hilarious choice on this. You've got the high highs

and the low lows on the board right now. Anything else you want to single out as, you know, we've

heard some more about it. You're more excited about it. Yes. I mean, I remain cautiously optimistic

about a Doomsday. Maybe I will that will be my famous last words first line of my obituary

went down swinging. But I do think it's going to hit. I'm at least I'm hoping and praying that it

does. I also, you know, Godzilla minus zero doesn't come out until November, but I have procured

the 4k of Godzilla minus one to prepare myself physically and emotionally for the release.

All right. Your body is ready. Listen, I will say I was looking at my draft, which is

comically hilarious. And I will just say a variable, which comes out at the end of the year.

Oh, yeah. I'm like hoping I can redeem myself. It's going to be good. I hope it absolutely rules.

That's my that's my hope. I mean, it's going to be hairy. It's going to be Victorian. It's

going to be very stuffy, but in a creepy way. Yeah. I mean, we know where we're in for. How did

you feel though about the Practo Magic 2 teaser? Um, pretty bad. Okay. Pretty bad about my

Practo Magic 2 choice, but we'll see. We'll see how it goes. Why are they shooting it that way?

Like, why does it look like a hallmark? Which move? I don't know. Truly strange. Really bad. And like,

I don't know, using the lime in the coconut. I just there's too much there's too much lime and

coconut. Yeah. But there's also a lot of lee pace. Not unwelcome. We always let he's always welcome

here. And Sandy still got it. Like, oh, Sandy never lost it. That's what I'm saying. She's

delivering in that teaser Nicole. I mean, it's really touching ghost. And your favorite actress

Joey King is also there. Of course, she is. She's certainly there and working. I think no matter what,

we're just going to have a hard time fighting against Sean and Mal having the first two choices

and it being due in part three in the Odyssey. Like, that's really tough for us. Well,

let's maybe I took disclosure a day's second, which I might have done. Um, that sounds like

something I would have done. That's something I would have done. Malia has a night of the seven

kingdoms on the board. That show ruled. That's great for her. So we'll see how it all pans out

right now. I'm inclined to say Sean fantasy won this, but we'll see what happens. Don't give him

any credits. I really don't want to. I really don't want to, but here we are. So unless Mando

and Grogo is incredible, but yeah, it's not going to be the the faith is low here. Um,

well, can I ask you a question while we're in this space, you know, a little more nerd intensive

than you and I usually partake and at least on prestige. Uh, I'm looking forward to X-Men 97

season two, even still. I am not like up on Polaris or the X force at all. Are those characters?

Is that a character or property that means anything to you? No. Okay. I mean, I know what it is.

Sure. Does it mean anything to me emotionally or high-poise? I can put Polaris on on the family

tree. Yeah. Yeah. But other than that, do I know literally anything about this character? No.

And apparently quite prominently featured in some of the promotional materials for season two. So

I guess we'll find out. I will get familiar. Is there anything that's been announced this year

that you regret like not picking in the hype draft? Oh, I'm trying to think of what's come out

recently. I mean, nothing has come out, I think, but like spider noir. Yes. Not of us. I wish I

had believed in it even more, but I got suckered in despite my affinity for the source idea for

Nicholas Cage himself. Yeah. By some of the tales of the production, I was like, oh, no, is this

another one of these like torture to death concepts that was in development hell for a while. I should

dissect my guns. I should have stuck to my black and white like pea sugar pistol and fedora.

That's what I should have done. Yeah. What about Supergirl? I'm okay. Okay. You're fine with that. I'm

hopeful. What about clay face? That's exciting. Speaking of chills and thrills. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The clay

face, I was like, I really wish someone had picked clay face on there. Also did resonant evil get

selected? Yes. Okay. So at least that was off the board. That is impact. That damage, Sean. Yeah.

I don't know. I think this is going to be a really good back half of this year. And especially the

summer is going to be really, really good. We need it. I mean, especially movie wise, it's been a

rough couple months overall. Yeah. It's really just your pick, Progetel Mary. That's keeping

hope alive. Thank you for us. So let's call the vote now. Okay. Close the polls.

What about Mario? The Mario Galaxy thing that he saw and talked to the man I've always about.

I covered it. I'm a professional. You watched it. I did watch it. Yeah. It was not very good.

Okay. Tough. All right. Sorry to say. On to Daredevil. The reason I'll sensibly we're here today,

Rob Mahoney. I've never talked to you about Daredevil. I think that's true. Somehow that's true.

I was surprised when at this very table, I was like, God, who am I going to get to cover for

Mallory? And you were just like, oh, I'll do it. Very helpful, Rob Mahoney. What's your history with

Daredevil? What's your, in general, what's your relationship with this character? How important is

Daredevil or the Daredevil world to you, Rob Mahoney? I mean, I love Daredevil as a character.

Mostly, I was introduced like, I'm more of an electric purist.

Mostly like introduced tangentially, right? Like Daredevil would pop up in comics. I was reading

when I was younger, they're more like Spider-Man oriented. He's like a great supporting character

to drop in and bounce off of people. But like any Marvel appreciating person in modern life,

like love the Netflix adaptation is so impeccably cast in terms of the source show and then

translating into this one. I also just think there's something about this character that really

appeals to me on a bunch of different levels. And one of them, we've like really gotten into

back into in Born Against Season 2, which is like, this dude is very Catholic. And I am a

lapsed Catholic. Yeah, Catholic boy. And so there's something about like my upbringing that rings

and resonates. But also, I think part of what I really like about Marvel and sometimes I feel like

a cold remove from what DC is like, this is a person who's in a real human place.

Like practicing a real actual religion and not just like of Gotham. Right. And so

when you watch Daredevil or re- Daredevil, like every panel is a refraction of actual New York

or a reflection on what it actually means to exercise like the guilt and grace of being Catholic.

To have like that, but also kind of Batman sometimes, like that's the superhero I can really

get behind. Did you ever in your in your non-lapse Catholic days and really enjoy standing

based in the red light of a stained glass window? It's my preferred way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

you gotta do the mood light. We can get the red gels in here for you today. They're still time.

Okay. Maybe by the third act of this pod, we will be bathed in red and appropriately moody. And

this is also an important part of the Daredevil formula. I love a brooder. I love just somebody

lurking, sulking, stewing in their own discontent. They're not the same family. But would you say

you prefer a brooder or a uriner, which is your preferred? It's definitely a uriner. Yeah, you love

a uriner. But the best brooders are also uriners at heart. It's like a square and a rhombus

situation. This is why like I'm kind of an angel guy. Oh, he's both a brooder and a uriner. You

want to speak in a buffy buffy check in while you're here? I mean, you guys have already been doing

it. Not just in the buffy pods, but the larger Dex conversation is a spite conversation. And I

appreciate your willingness to put yourself on front street and the examination of that. Thank you

ever so much. Listen, we'll get to Dex. I promise you, but quickly, while I have you here,

we have five, six and seven left to cover for buffy, which season should we bring you on for

as a guest between those three fives a banger would love to would love to guest spot on five. And

you know what? I guess very mild spoiler, though you've already talked about on the season four pod.

I'm happy to be a dawn defender. I'm happy to occupy that chair if you need that chair.

All right. It's that that chair is vacant and ready and waiting for. I already have some very

strongly worded emails written and drafted about what you two said about Riley. But you know,

he's pro Riley and pro Don. I don't know if I'm pro Riley. I'm just like let a guy be a normal guy,

you know? They don't all have to be genocidal vampires, you know? But you prefer a brooder

at a uriner and Riley just a potato. Yeah, he could use a thought in his head. It would be nice.

As for Daredevil, you you mentioned you enjoy the Netflix show. How are you enjoying your

boarding and experience? Maybe like in contrast to Netflix show or do you just think of them as

sort of two different things or how do you feel about it? It's hard to think of them as distinct

when they just want to harken back all the time. Constantly, yeah. Constantly, just the

the continued existence of certain characters, the flashback episode this season, like they clearly

want you to be pulled to that place. Yeah. I'm more willing to do it this season than I was last

just because season one was such a disaster structurally. This at least, I mean, in its highest

highest kind of does feel a little bit like the Netflix Daredevil. I don't think the hit rate is

quite the same. No, I don't think the dialogue is quite as crisp. Even the fights, like some of the

fights are quite good and some of them are just like, do you have a, a favorite fight so far

this season? I'm trying to go back through, but even like even if you take episode six, for example,

the two different Jessica Jones fights, like the warehouse fight I quite like, though like we're

not even going to show you the action because we're in the house fight, like that's kind of bush

league TV stuff I don't really like. I mean, it is. That's safe. We're saving budget, you know.

Yeah. But or we're teasing a reveal. Sure. You know what? Let's get into what I'm calling our

mediumish dip, not a deep dive. And we'll talk about Jessica Jones right for this.

Okay, Jessica Jones shows up in this episode, but I would say once again, barely here. Yeah. How

are we feeling about how much Jessica Jones was promoted for this season versus how much they're

using her this season? Not good at present. Yeah. But there's one more episode to go. And she has a

dramatic return at the end of this episode. So we are promised that she will play some kind of more

significant role in the finale. You think more significant or just another two or three scenes?

I hope to God. It's more significant. I don't know. I like, I don't know. I haven't seen the finale,

but I thought, you know, we waited, we waited, we waited, she showed up in six. Then I was like,

okay, maybe seven will be the Jessica Jones episode kind of felt that way. But it's not. And then

the finale is the finale, the finale cannot be the quote, the Jessica Jones episode. So there's

not going to be one that's like really her episode this season, the way that like I would argue,

bulls, I got his episode this season, you know. And so will this be, is this all just set up for

season three? Are we just sort of like laying the path? We get a Luke Cage mention inside of this

episode. We have some thoughts and theories about what's going on with Luke Cage, possibly Danny

ran because both my culture and then Jones are going to be in season three of Daredevil Boarding

End for some reason. Yeah. So how do you wish they had used her or how do you, what are you

enjoying most about the way they have used her? I want to leave my heart somewhat open to whatever

happens in the finale. An optimistic guy. I am an optimistic guy. I do think the writing of this

season and her inclusiveness in it is just like doing her absolutely zero favors. When she shows up,

like for these conversations with Charles, for example, and she's the exposition deliverer and

he's the guy who gets to make the quips, like you have messed up the formula on a very fundamental

level with this character. And I want to acknowledge that it's not the easiest thing. I think Jessica

is much better as the damaged hero of her own story than she is as a drive by sidekick for one

like this. And especially given that it's been so long for Kristen Ritter and Jessica Jones both

in this space, just like dropping her back into this world. Like you have to do some like work.

You have to create some inroads for that character to be here. But you could do better than this.

And just the fact that they even have commentary within the episode of like we're on yet another

generic rooftop making your generic rooftop jokes does not change the fact that you're on another

generic rooftop. But you had to do better than this. I did enjoy the sunglasses in that scene. I

and like cherry has been a tough character because this show has really struggled I think with the

gallery of side characters that they have presented over the last two seasons in there.

Some we really enjoy and some we feel frustrated and then some like I would say cherry and

Kirsten who just feel like because they're tertiary or in some cases sort of even lower than that,

it just sort of feels like am I supposed to sort of appreciate these people in the full human

experience of their life or are they just here to deliver exposition or in Kirsten's case in

this episode, look incredible in a suit in a courtroom. That green suit is working. Great stuff.

The scales of justice, lapel, pen. Yeah. Incredible. Really good shit.

But yeah, I think the show's really struggled with the side characters in general. And

cherries certainly this season has been like even more sidelined. I think to make room for like

more care and stuff and stuff like that. But you and I'll talk about this some with Vanessa

with some of the other story lines. I do think here in season two, they have a better feel for

what's working and what isn't and are starting to sideline some of those characters more verbally.

Like we just don't see very much of cherry for good reason. He can be the person who brings

in the other cops when you need like the escort to get you to the parking garage.

But other than that, he just doesn't really have a function in the story anymore.

He was like damseled at the beginning of the season essentially and that that worked well.

That sort of like his heart slowing sort of sequence. I thought worked really well,

but to bring him back here. But I did enjoy like sort of the PI to PI sort of interaction that he

and Jessica had. But she doesn't get to be a PI like that. I think that's what's weird.

There's so many ways she could have been introduced. Yeah. Why couldn't it be her and Matt chasing the

same case and like winding up at the same scene of whatever crime, you know? Do you think that? So

I hear what you're saying. I agree with you that like she works better as the damage star of

her own show versus the sidekick. But is there a way in which she's used more meaningfully or there

is a story of the line that's more meaningfully centered on her and perhaps are setting that up

for season three when we hear that like Luke Cage and possibly Danny Rand are elsewhere in the

world together doing stuff for the government. Why is Luke Cage working for the government? Mr.

like you falsely imprisoned me. I'm going to be like the hero of Harlem and like what?

You know, did they have leverage on him? What was the offer there? Did they threaten his daughter?

How can you threaten Jessica Jones and Luke Cage to the most powerful people in the world?

Kind of asterisk on Jessica at least. Yeah. Motherhood. Right.

I think I'll see what I say about Jessica Jones. I just I'm going to need more. Yeah.

I'm going to need more whether that's in the finale or that's in season three. But I'm hoping it's

sooner than season three. It's not my favorite moment of the podcast. I'm calling it Bullseye

with Rob Mahoney. Rob, do you get the hype? How are you feeling about Bullseye?

I mean, you're goddamn right. I do. Yeah. How can you not? He's so good. He's very good. I would say

overall with this season, yeah, you have like your daredevil mainstays. And then there are really

two characters. So I would say are like elevating almost every scene that they're in.

One of them is Buck who I think has been consistently quite good. I am a Buck Cashman guy.

Right. Has so many interesting relationships with so many different characters on the show at this

point. And then Bullseye's obviously the other one. Like he is magnetic on the screen in a way

that they're clearly trying to wrangle and figure out what to do with. And this is where I mean,

just the spikeification is off the charts. As far as like, don't think too much about the truly

villainous and evil things he has done because look at this man's sonter. I mean, the swagger as he's

leaving Governor Lilly Taylor's house mansion. Having saved the life of Governor Lilly Taylor.

Come on. Come on. That's one good deed. Don't worry about fatherland. Don't worry about foggy.

Don't think about it. We are told the scales are even. Yeah. Balance. We're leveled out.

And now he can do whatever he wants. So there are rumors circulating that Val, you know,

that Val could recruit Bullseye for future missions in the MCU. Yeah. Would you want to see him

joining the Thunderbolts? I like that. I like that pairing. Yeah. I think where I'm getting conflict

is I want more Thunderbolts. Well, I do want more Thunderbolts. Okay. I am among. I mean, the greatest

Julia Louis-Dreyfus appreciators on the planet. She is maybe the most miscast person in the history

of the MCU. I really agree. Would you? And I know you always prefer a man to do a woman's job. Would

you prefer to replace her with Matthew Lillard as Mr. Charles? Here's the thing. He's not good in this

either. No, he's a bad character in a bad part. And I'm like, he's fine. Like, it's not a terrible

performance. It's a wait. I would say the two biggest, like, waste of a great actor in the season,

Lily Taylor, Governor Lily Taylor. Yeah. You have Lily Taylor. This is what you're

referring to by her title, please. Yeah. Of course. Um, still Governor can't kill her Lily Taylor.

And Matthew Lillard, I was so excited for Lillard to join the show. And it's just been a real

confusing mess. Not whole arm of the MCU, the Val. I like, I loved the movie Thunderbolts.

But I really agree with you about the way that Val has been used across the board. Yeah.

It's been like a real mess fire. So do I want Bullseye? I mean, here's what I think Bullseye should

do next. Um, I think they should just give him a Punisher S special. Like he should get an MCU

special proof that he can like, because I know he can. But just to like prove to the brass,

the marble brass, he can. He's got some pull. Yeah. He can headline his own thing. And then think

about putting him in the larger sort of MCU in a more significant way. Questions about, you

know, they're, they're obviously incorporating Punisher into the Spider-Man movie. We have questions

about the way in which Charlie Cox has been sort of sprinkled here and there. I think it would be

kind of funny if Wilson Bethel's Dex gets promoted to like a MCU movie character in a more

significant way before poor Charlie Cox dare to level the one that like people have been asking since

the beginning being. Well, at least an MCU attorney. That's true. Yeah, we just, yes, appeared.

Superhero law. But yeah, I mean, Wilson, like, like, and I talked about this before, but like,

I just want to reiterate, I think it's so smart. I think it's smarter to pivot to the strengths

of your actor than it is to worry too much about does this seem inconsistent with the character we

presented because the way that they presented Dex in season three of Daredevil is worlds different.

Now, grant you this man fell off a roof and had his entire, like, and his prescriptions changed.

Yeah. His entire, his entire head cantaloupe, essentially. So like, if his personality is entirely

different, that's fine. But it's working. It's so good. It's also they burned through so much plot

on these shows in a soap operatic kind of way. I almost like, did I even remember that Karen was

responsible for her brother's death? I got to be honest. I did not. Like, that was just like lost to

time in a way that if the performances are good in this world, I completely grew with you on

leaning into what your actors can do and kind of what presence they occupy on screen. This is

almost the same reason why I'm a little bit of a Karen apologist too, because if you ask me to

articulate who that character is, I can't do it. No. They have swerved all over the road season,

season. They've never even in the Netflix days. Just like her when she drove drunk and killed her brother.

Okay. That's uncalled for. But you need the reminder. I honestly did. But Debra and Wool's

like such an appealing and compelling performer. And she and Charlie Cox have good chemistry

together. I see you might feel very differently about that. No, no. I'm not as negative on

on Karen as Mallory as Mallory is the number one Karen hater. That's why I'm taking my opportunity

about Malice. I know. Yeah. To defend Riley and to defend Karen and Mallory. That's fine.

I was just going to ask you how much do you think of that is informed by your true blood fandom?

It genuinely is. Yeah. I mean, there is that association. Vampire Jessica was a great character

and she was great as Vampire Debra. A better character than Karen if we're all being honest about it.

So yeah, I definitely carry over. And we're going to talk about this a bit later with some other

actors on the show. But I definitely carry over an appreciation for Debra and Wool what I know

she can do right into what I would say is a very messy arc for or arcs for Karen.

Yeah. Consistently. And this is where Decks to me is very different because yeah, they're

leaning into what you're getting from an acting perspective. The charisma that is so different

from what you get from a Frank Castle, for example, like the gruffness versus the charm. Yeah.

And the smirking I think like plays really well. And yet both are great foils for Daredevil,

right? They're great mirror characters to have. I think Decks has some of that moment-to-moment

enjoyable ability of just like watching him on screen that the best characters on Daredevil do.

But also like so many of the thematic ties that you really need if you're going to be on

multi-season character in the way he's turned out to be. I don't know that I fully understand what

Matt's whole courtroom plan is or was Karen seemed to telepathically understand what is.

Well, there's a lot of that in this episode of like let's not talk about the plan for dramatic

reasons. Let's just do it. So it's just like Matt returns under the protection of the camera

and then he knows what's the cameras are off. He's in trouble or something like that.

I thought just for a second what the plan might be is Matt Murdoch lawyer shows up

and that Decks puts the Daredevil suit back on because he's in three and they're in the same

place at the same time and he's like see I can't be Daredevil. That's Daredevil.

Conversely me me. I'm blind lawyer Matt Murdoch can't be the same person.

But who would that be fooling? I don't know. Because Wilson knows definitively.

Well Wilson knows but then the public would never know. But I guess that's true. Wilson is invested

in Matt not being revealed because Matt heroically saved Wilson in season one of born again. And so

if we find out that Matt Murdoch is Daredevil. He can't say Daredevil that villain who

oops saved my life at the end of season one. So I suspect possibly part of Matt's whole plan

is to unmask himself in the finale. But I don't know for sure. I'm not sure the plan is

that well thought out. It feels a little like very confused. Luke showing up to Jabba's palace.

Like I'm going to figure it out. I guess kind of winging it. Have you seen my new black mock turtle neck?

Come on. And my shiny pants. I do. My Chanel boots. I got this. I got this.

Anything else you want to say about Bullseye before we move on?

I can't think of anything else other than I mean I could have used more of him in this episode

but even the glancing blow that we get. It's just like so clear that I would be sad if he turns

into a larger MCU character and not a recurring Daredevil character like the show might need him.

Daredevil be worse for the lack of that. Yeah for sure like they would have to fill that void

and you're already kind of dipping into the rogue's gallery pretty heavily between this and the

Netflix show. And you don't think that Danny Ran iron fist himself can fill that charisma.

You know I don't. Okay. But I will say I appreciate the swing of that. Like the ambition of like

everyone hates this character. We're bringing it back. What if we could save him? What if we could

redeem him in the eyes of like I mean because Dex has been a smaller scale version of that where

I wouldn't say he's ever as disastrous as Danny Ran was but he was kind of bland and generic and

a huge hit for Pete for not Wilson Beth. I came in as a Wilson Bethel fan but like for not they're

just sort of like okay I guess this is this version of of Dex and then they're like oh he can do

this. Oh he's often the most compelling thing in the show. I mean it's interesting. I will say four

and five. The reason we're covering the rest of the season week to week is because four and five

really duped Mallory and me into thinking this was like a better show than it is because like

I don't think it's terrible. But I think four and five and our Juno warners of this before and

five I think are like the peak of the season for me. The more Dex centric stuff and then six seven

and then we'll see what the finale does. But like I would say six was week I think this is I don't

know. It's just a very messy show. It is messy but I just like it. That's great. You know I maybe

it is I have a lot of forgiveness for Daredevil and Matt in my heart for many different reasons

even when I mean generally Catholic reasons but also like courtroom drama here's a surprise

co-counsel. Yeah it's just like such a that was fun. It's just stupid and fun and amazing move

that I I those parts of the show appeal to me. Do you have a surprise MVP of the episode?

I think it's the same as yours because there's only one answer. And what's your answer?

Joe I don't know how they did this. And speaking of comeback stories. Yeah they made Heather

up. Dr Heather Glendale. Sorry they made Dr Heather Glendale. Like Dr. Chase Meridian.

Future serial killer us herself. Dr. Heather Glendale as I live and breathe. She's fantastic

in this episode. She's so good. All it took was her choking out a guide to the point of orgasm

and also like slapping Karen Page around a little bit. It's it's been a really like

to your buck cash one point. I think the scene where she and buck are sat together

at the dinner earlier this season. That was like the first I was like wow I'm really enjoying

this other scene. This is great. I literally sat up on my couch the other. Oh this is good.

This is really I didn't know this could be a thing. Yeah and then the choke out orgasm scene.

Yeah which I also want to agree with Mallory canonically. She definitely choked him to completion.

Okay so you are in her absence defending Karen defending Riley but agreeing with her

making sure she forgives you by agreeing with her about this orgasm case she's making her.

That's not the point of what I'm doing. I'm just agreeing because it's a good argument on

the merits. Yeah and I believe Craig me if I'm wrong. Is that the first canonical orgasm we have

in the larger Marvel cinematic television project? Absolutely not because I think you're forgetting

about a film called The Eternal. Well I'm like two planks of wood grinding against each other is not

an orgasm. It's canonically an orgasm. Let me tell you I watched it. You know when you see it

and that was not it. They completed something in their wooden way.

But Dr. Heather Glenn just like really fun in this episode. Really fun is a villain.

What they're setting up the rumor is that she'll be playing Lady Muse like so that she will be

taking over the persona of Muse in the next season and people pointing out that the tear tracks

down her face during her I guess orgasm in the last episode match the sort of like blood tears

that are down the face of the of the Muse mask. The earring looks a lot like the earring that she

stole and then was given the other pair from Wilson matches the sort of like bloody sunburst pattern

on the chest of the Muse character. So like they're really sort of setting this up for her to be

maybe the villain or at least a villain of season three and I am really into it and like Heather

and Buck Cashman together killing people and having orgasms sounds great to me.

It sounds great. Two killers killing people having orgasms the premise for its own spin-off show.

Like I would watch them as the leads in their own twisted project.

This begs the question. Why have they not adapted the sex crimes comic book from Matt

Fraction? I just like that's such a good idea. I don't know why it hasn't been made yet.

They're on the developmental shelf. And then my runner up for MVP is Kyrsten's courtroom fit

but we've already talked about that but I just thought it was extraordinary.

Let's before we even get to the Kyrsten stuff like I mean for one Margarita Levyva I find to be like a

really interesting actor if you give her something to like lord over people or a secret to hold

and like this character now kind of has both. This is your task like experience. It's her performance

on task or like what else is there? Even just on this show. You can just see the transformation

as soon as she is like grasping any kind of power for herself. And I love that and kind of

engagement with the cortex of Daredevil. There's this idea of if vigilantes are out in the world.

Does that make you feel more protected or like you are ponds in the game of all of these superheroes

and quasi superheroes who are fighting around you? And the idea that even for someone as traumatized

as she is a part of the story that like I just didn't think really worked before this but like the

long track to get us here feels like kind of a miracle in turning this into a person who I kind of

buy that she would grasp on to whatever version of a sort of power she could hold to feel more stable.

Yeah, her as like this is how she's processing her PTSD especially since she's been guided

like physician heal they self perhaps a therapist should have gone to some therapy but she decided

not to she decide literally mandated for them to do it. She decided to consult the bottle. That's

one therapist. She went to Buck Cashman. That's an idea. And Wilson is inside of this episode who's

like, Hey, your impulses. Interesting. Maybe lean into those. What she was cast as in season one was

their marital therapist to Vanessa and Wilson. Yep. And then sort of

sadly yearning love and trust format Murdoch like these are terrible positions to be in.

Not good. And then this is just so much more interesting like extremely damaged, morally

compromised from the beginning of the season when she changes her the test that she completed

for the swordsman. And then yeah, I've I've really enjoyed this and we have landed in a really good

place with her. That scene was so that scene is my favorite Karen scene of the season. Yep.

I thought and I thought her scene with Wilson was actually also really good in this episode. Like

this is a good Karen page mode. And so Karen being like snide and fuck you and I get to fuck

Matt Murdoch and you don't like all this or stuff. And then and then Heather's response, Heather

projecting her own feeling of powerlessness onto onto Karen saying like what is it like to be

upon of all these men? Did they abuse you? Did they do this? Did they do that? And you're like again

physician healed I self. I have seen the pit. You need to talk to a therapist. Um this is great.

This is just like it's frustrating to me that with a property as good as Daredevil. It is taking

them this long to figure these certain things out. Yeah. And I know that they were tasked with

something really tough in season one of sort of like Franken creating something out of a version

of the show that came before. This has been a long road to where we are but to get Dex here to get

Heather here. Like these are are we're swinging the right direction is what I can say for the show.

And I think there are some payoffs to even that long road, right? Like the idea of aligning

Heather with Fisk specifically. Like she she has come to a place where part of like the core

frustration of Kingpin and what makes him such a great character is like he has that untouchable

quality whether it's because of the money that insulates him or now the political power that

insulates him. And so it's like he gets to do all these heinous things and like you can't touch him.

You can't you can't get to him. And she has her version of that in this scene, right? Like she is

the legit one Karen is the criminal by circumstance. And she gets to literally assault Karen. She

gets to try to provoke her and the joint like we are manipulating each other or attempting to but

also being borderline puppeteered by each other in the process like this is one of the best fights

of the season, not even including the physical part. Right, right, I really agree.

I will tell you this when this episode dropped early this week, Mallory Washington before me.

And she texted me, have you watched Daredevil yet? I said no, I'm just starting here right now.

And she said you must text me immediately when you finish. Yeah. And I was like, uh-oh,

something very close. What happened to Dex? I was worried about my guy Dex, but it was her guy

Daniel Blake, who doesn't make it out of this episode a lot. She does not.

That's interesting to talk about on his own, right? Just because I just want to represent for Mallory,

who was quite upset by this, sent me a lot of all caps texts about it. She flew out yesterday

when she landed. She was like, I don't have to to Arjuna. I mean, she was like, I don't have text

from either of you asking like checking in on my mental well-being after Daniel Blake has been killed.

What's going on? I thought she was pro murder of any Yankee fan.

No. She loves Daniel Blake. I mean, that's true. She just loves him. So,

Daniel Blake dies in this episode. But for those people who are listening or watching this

podcast who have not been online the last couple days, variety posted this right up about the

episode that I saw immediately after the episode was over. And I said to Mallory, she's like,

this is unhinged. The original version of this episode, he doesn't die. Buck decides to not kill him,

but they they changed their mind. And so they digitally inserted like a gunshot and his death

is was done in post. So that look that Buck gives him as he walks out the door is not a I killed

my friend. This is so tough. It's a I spared my friend what what consequences await me. But we

have to reinterpret his whole performance because they changed their mind and decided to kill this

character that originally the whole point of the scene was Daniel convinces Buck to not kill him.

And instead of rewriting it or reshooting it, they just added a gunshot to it to make the outcome

completely different. And that's like just indicative of the entire Daredevil show as far as

concerned and like really frustrating. But I guess I question to you was like, because you and I

since the pit concluded have been hearing all of these scenes that were cut from the pit finale,

just like countless scenes that were cut from the pit finale. So my question is, do you feel like

this is ramping up in the television space that they're just making these weird in the edit room

in the post sort of decisions? Or do we just know too much as consumers? And like I really wish I

didn't know this definitely about Daniel Blake. Sorry that I had now spread it to anyone who's

listening to this who didn't know this. And like with the pit, like I am kind of glad I know about

all the stuff they cut from the pit, but also I'm just like, but maybe I would have enjoyed I would

be still enjoying it more if I didn't know all the things they left behind. What do you think?

This one I almost think you kind of have to talk about on some level at some point. And

part of that is my trepidation about what's going to happen in the next episode. Because here,

the wild part about all this, I think it works. Like I think in this moment at the end of this

episode, it does land and it does hit and it hit me pretty hard. I think part of the reason that's

true is because the contrast of like this in over his head, very like warm blooded hard on his

leaf character, getting killed in this very cold, detached way does play with the like very surgical

edit that they had to do using CGI. But what happens in the next episode with everything else that

they've shot, assuming that he survived and you're now going to have to it's going to be like an ADR

from like behind. I'm worried about it being like it's done for something like that. You know,

the pit stuff is almost a different category where it's like there's clearly some tension at the

heart of that show in terms of the people making it and performing on it. And I feel like some

actors feel a sense of obligation to say like, Oh, actually, there was all this other stuff with

my character that's supposed to be informing what I do. But this is why it's weird. But I'm also

surprised that this story made it to variety, you know, and not not only did the actor who played

who plays Buck Cashman talk about it, but like the showrunners talked about it, like this decision.

That's kind of what makes me feel like it must be unavoidable in the finale. Like it must either

we just don't see Buck again in the finale at all, which is frankly, what I might do under these

circumstances is if you're going to make a dramatic narrative shift like this. Because otherwise,

I don't know how you're just going to be able to ADR and edit your way through a dramatically

different story decision like that. If he's got like, I don't think you can have a scene between Buck

and Kingpin, but we'll see. But I feel like you could have a Dr. Heather Glenn and Buck Cashman

were in the shit now, like, sex scene because he's going to be feeling like, I'm fucked because I

didn't kill Daniel. Yes. You know, and if you can somehow translate that to, I'm getting fucked,

working through my grief that I killed my friend. Yes. We'll see what happens. On the Gandalfini

front. Sounds like you were really enjoying his performance as Mallory and I quite did.

I think in a way that, like, has this like fun mirror with the character, right? Because like,

the character in the story is sort of like winning over or begrudging people left and right.

Yeah, I felt the same way. And there's something about the performance. It's like, this is not

of this show. And yet he just kind of warms his way in and you feel a certain affection and investment

in his story. I had the exact same journey where Mallory, like, right out the gate was into him.

And I was like, I'm not sure. And now I'm like, I'm a missing. I really miss him. And especially,

like, he, he and Buck as characters, like, that was one of the most successful relationships

developed within this season. And so that's part of why it hits hard for me. It's like, you're

feeling the loss of that, but the loss is something that was actually good. And not just like,

we're writing Vanessa in whatever form she existed off the show now. Right. It's interesting.

I had a conversation with Eric Voss of New Rockstars and he was texting me. He's like,

Joanna, what am I? He was like, not really into the Gandalfini performance. And so he's like,

what am I missing? Like, what are you enjoying that I'm missing? And we had a great conversation

about it. And what I, what we concluded it was my suspicion, I was like, are you a big

sopranos guy? Yeah. And I was like, I can understand, you know, you and I very famously have not

watched more than a few episodes of the sopranos. So I have watched other Gandalfini performances.

Um, uh, you know, I'm a big, um, the big fan of his work, but I don't have so many years

of the Tony soprano in my mind. And Michael, I saw, um, Saints of Newark for some reason,

which is the soprano's prequel. Michael Gandalfini played his dad literally. But I was, I was talking

to Eric Voss about this. And I was like, it's kind of like Lewis Pullman, where like I like Lewis

Pullman. Yeah. But I never watch a Lewis Pullman performance and don't think about his dad.

Ah, I'm always thinking about Bill Pullman. Like Lewis Pullman, like, there are NEPO babies out there

who have, who either like don't look so much like their parent or, um, have made decisions,

whether it's like you're Dakota Johnson's or your Jack Wades or whatever the case may be,

have made chosen roles that are distinct enough from what their parents would have done,

that I'm not like preoccupied with this. But what Michael Gandalfini is doing here is a James

Gandalfini role. Kind of. And what Lewis Pullman does is often a Bill Pullman role. And so they're

sort of like consciously or just taking what opportunities come to them. I mean, Lewis Pullman is

literally doing space balls too. Yes. You know what I mean? So like in way, there are ways in which

they're leaning into it. So if I had the specter of James Gandalfini sort of like looming over

this performance, I might have a harder time appreciating it. Voss was saying, just talking about how

the way that Gandalfini could like in his silences with a glance, with a look could convey so much.

And I actually think my like experience with Michael Gandalfini is like he can do that in the

scene in last week's episode. When he's looking at BB and like blowing out the candles,

there's just like nine different things happening across this face that like really,

really worked for me. But I can, I can understand why if I was a huge soprano's, uh, devotee,

it might get in the way of my enjoyment here. Do you have any thoughts on that? I can,

I can understand that. And yeah, there's certainly something with all of these

Nebo baby actors where you're right. It's either like you're leaning in hard or you get the glimps

that sort of takes you out of it. Like I do get that with Margaret quality sometimes too, where it's

like you catch the right angle. And it's like Jack Quaid too. Sometimes he's grinning,

you're like, there's your dad. I see it, you know, yeah. But I think you make a really smart

observation about the way they can kind of steer around that with the parts that they play.

I actually think this is not a Gandalfini part, a James Gandalfini part. Like to me, it is

for lack of a better word, like so much more of a pathetic character. Like he's,

he's down on his luck in a different way than I've seen James Gandalfini play. And so I think

there is something about like, and this is kind of baked into the text of his relationship with BB

too. That's like a little pitiful, a little like again, it's the way he ingratiates himself with

people. Some of it just like the in over his head, like literally, how is this character on the show

in this capacity is kind of mind blowing. But I do think it's distinct enough, or even if I

were more sopranos inclined, I don't know if it would take me out. I do think that James Gandalfini

always had just because of his like physicality, always had like a bit more of an imposing physicality

that he could sometimes play against. Like get shorty is like one of my favorite Gandalfini

performances. And he is kind of like on the back foot, you know, like he gets beat up through that

whole move, like he shows up, he's supposed to be like the muscle. And then he just gets a shit

kicked out of him constantly. He's kind of this like, you know, aw shucks kind of character,

but it's in contrast to his physicality. Whereas Michael Gandalfini as Daniel Blake is just much

more of a like overall quote unquote loser, but a loser that you like love. He grows on you.

I mean, it's like a Cooper Hoffman kind of loser. You know, like I think they occupy a weird

similar space. They really do. Where are you with Cooper Hoffman? Like I mean pro, but that's

another actor where you'll see the clips or the moments go around and it's like, oh, that is your

dad coming out. That one feels, I mean, maybe welcome in a different way just because I feel like

his baseline performance style is quite different. And so a couple of moments don't necessarily take me

out of it. It really is like a time and place thing. Anything else you want to say about Daniel Blake?

The deer departed. I mean, I think I hope. Sorry. No, please. One more layer because we got this

version of the story from Variety where they're like, we just made the story decision.

My hope is actually Michael Gandalfini had other acting like other things he wanted to do,

but then I was like looking and there's nothing coming up for him. But like I really hope that

someone else picks him up and really uses him because I think he like of the people in this show.

He is one where I was like, you have potential for a really bright future. Yes.

Out of this performance, you know, though in that vein, I do agree with you and I hope that for him too.

I do think this is the right story decision. Like the version of the events that we see here where

they are close enough for this to haunt Buck, but not for him to stop. I think tracks. And certainly

you get the contrast in a bunch of different ways, right? Like who is deserving of grace and forgiveness?

Where are you? Like where is your individual line? Clearly, Buck is like so far beyond whatever

that used to be. But also for these characters, like, you know, Kingpin isn't the only person who

sees himself, right? Like in ultimately, like what Daniel is and where he came from. Like I think

getting the reveal with Buck, like he came from his own humble beginnings and has had to reinvent

himself and has had to like fake it until he makes it in this other weird kind of wet work adjacent

capacity. Like I like the idea that he killed this person who he was fond of because he felt like

he had to and in doing so is like killing a former version of himself. Is this why you smooth out

any Texas twang from your from your voice to really make nothing? Trust me every time every time I say

y'all comes right back out comes right back out. All right. You're obviously enjoying this show.

I would say a bit more than I am in general. And that's great to have on this podcast. But like

do you think this is a good season? Let's just talk about Charlie Cox because we've been talking

about all these other characters on the show, but the show is called Daredevil. So like is this a good

season for Charlie Cox has the Disney era served him at all this Matt Murdoch because I thought

Charlie Cox as Matt Murdoch on Netflix was one of the best superhero performances I had ever seen.

Just like that tormented Catholicness, the street level, the like seeing him actually like bruised

and battered and bloodied and limping through the streets of hell kitchen like like his

clumsy costumes that he would wear like all of these things just really, really worked for me.

And I just and like I would say in the Disney era, the best place he's been used is Shihok.

I thought his episode of Shihok was so good. Really fun. This was a really, really good like moment.

It's like a funnier Matt Murdoch, but like a really, really good use of Charlie Cox's charm.

What the special skills that Daredevil has in every way, but I mean specifically in the hearing

sense and he has a bullseye kind of precision in his own way. I think there's a lot of value in

these things. You never miss this, but like is this show serving him? Is it giving him enough to work

with? I don't think what it's giving him to work with is necessarily great. The writing this season

is I would say a market improvement over season one, but Matt Murdoch, Sasha Daredevil is not

particularly cogent in this version of the show like who he is from moment to moment from episode

to episode from scene to scene like doesn't entirely track. I think it is to Charlie Cox's incredible

credit that most of the time I'm not even really thinking about it. And then he'll say something I'm

like Daredevil would literally never say that. Matt Murdoch would never think that. That doesn't

make sense for this character. But I do think that conversation has shifted somewhat this season

because Matt is like functionally disappeared from the story for a lot of this season, right? It has

been like you were kind of Daredevil all the time because Matt Murdoch has to be in hiding. And so

like the public facade part of being Matt Murdoch has gone from the story. I think Charlie Cox plays

Daredevil and the physicality of Daredevil amazingly well, no matter what the circumstances are.

And like within that, there's the brutality. There's the exhaustion you're talking about. I do wish

this version of the show would lean into that stuff more. The like I have to go find, you know,

the night nurse to like heal myself up from the cost of participating in this kind of blood.

People will put like grappling hooks. Absolutely. You know, like what's happening? Yeah, like his

the and I'm not even talking about this in like a pervy horny way, just like the map of his body,

which like we see so much in the Netflix show of just sort of like this is the cost. This is the

damage. Yes. This is what is this is done to you. And I would say, you know, to your point earlier

in this episode when you were talking about hearketing back to the Netflix show, the flashback

episode where we get to see Matt Murdock and Foggy together. Like that felt recognizably

Matt Murdock to me. They know how to write that mode of Matt Murdock, but this version where he's like

I I won't kill, but I'm also in a much more angry or brutal space where I let out these

carnal screams when I'm fighting and stuff like that. Like I just don't I don't know how to square

who he is in any kind of way. And similarly with Karen up until this episode, like similarly with

Karen, I just don't know how are there philosophies, you know, different in clashing or are they

in sync together or or you know, what's what's the larger unifying principle here? Or like what

what is what is inspired the change like Foggy's death in season one is this huge inspiration

for Matt to change certain things. Sure. I understand. But like I just really wish the

Daredevil show were doing a better job of serving Charlie Cox, who when he shows up on

any other thing, any other movie in any other show. Yeah. You're excited to see him, you know,

and and here I just want more for him. This is he this should be he's show. It should. And

instead it does feel like he holds it down, right? Like he's I wouldn't say he's ever the problem

certainly not from a performance standpoint in any of these scenes. I think the like

grunting yelling while fighting part of the character actually does work for me maybe a little

better than it is for you. Yeah. I think to me that is part of what makes Daredevil so fun and so

different from everything else in the MCU. Like all these other heroes like they have these powers

that make them and put them in a space where the fights look and feel different. And so the idea

that he not only is getting bruised and battered but has to like summon this rage to be able to fight

off an entire task force of people. That is appealing to me. I think like being Daredevil is hard

and that is so much the core of the best version of this show if not necessarily this season.

But like Charlie Cox makes being Daredevil look pretty easy in terms of the what he is doing

physically within that suit in a way that a lot of the other actors in the MCU and these Marvel

shows just do not. It's a good point. What are you hoping for from the finale?

I mean the Jessica stuff for sure. Like I need something more from Jessica Jones being on this

series. I also need some more courtroom theatrics. Like I I would like to go back. I don't know

if that's even realistic after we've had a shootout in the courthouse parking garage. But

one of the most like incoherent action sequences I've seen in a long time.

Speaking of the files of Matt Murdock definitely murdered this man. Like he threw his cane

through the window of the through the windshield of the SUV leaf on the wind style and definitely

killed that driver, right? But he won't kill Wilson Fist because he has a code, you know.

That's a code. How dare you invoke leaf on the house? Is that not exactly like spear through

the windshield? I guess technically you could say he like locked the steering wheel with his cane,

but oh, like the club. We should we should get that whole sequence again except from the POV

of these AVTF guys and just be like, oh, we liked that guy. They're tragic back story.

Um, I actually did have that thought about to rewind for a second to the Heather stuff. Like

not to rewrite the show and its entirety. But how differently would we feel about this character

if we kind of started in something closer to this place, right? If it's like, I think,

again, the Netflix Daredevil actually did a quite good job with some of these supporting

characters, your Wesley types, like showing up in their current present day form and you get like

shreds of backstory that tell you kind of how they got here and why they might be like particularly

fucked up in the way that they are. But I wonder if the whole Heather experience might have

been different if we sort of parachute it in with her already being like pretty tormented.

I mean, it sounds like she does have that backstory. We just didn't really, you know,

because like when she's talking to Karen about like, did your brother abuse you? I was like,

where did that come from? Heather, your own or her files. Yeah. She's kind of incredible files.

Um, all right. I mean, do you need like, if we get a big showdown between Wilson Fisk and

Daredevil, we already got a fight between them. But are we going to get a big finale fight? And what

do we like, is that interesting? We've seen it so many times. What would be an interesting

outcome from that? Like, I completely understand why Fisk is here. Denofrio playing Fisk is like

a five course meal. Like it is something very special. So I understand, but it's just like,

because we've done it in season one and season three of Netflix. And now for two seasons here,

yeah, it's like, you know, we keep circling the drain on these two. It's not like a finally.

These two are going to clash. I'm like, I saw it two episodes ago. Is he going to punch

another brick pillar again? Like, you know, like, what do I want? I don't, I don't know.

I think this is where I do want the courtroom part of it to have some kind of authority. Like,

I'm not naive enough to think like you take down Wilson Fisk with the law necessarily. But this

idea thematically that like, Daredevil has had a really hard time taking down Fisk for certainly

this entire season in multiple seasons. Like, maybe this is something that Murdoch can do.

Maybe there is a way where we trace the assassination attempt on Governor Lily Taylor.

Yeah. That's justifying casting Lily Taylor in this, like, let's say, Governor Lily Taylor

takes the stands. Wow. You know, turns the tables. You don't want your honor. We're calling

bulls out of the stand. I mean, I would not be surprised. And I'd be very bummed, but I would

not be surprised if Dex isn't in the finale. Like, he gave a walk away like one good deed and a

walk away towards the camera. I kind of think that was it in a way where like, he might not show up in

the fight. I fully expect him not to. Or he's there in a coat of being recruited for something.

Right. You know, something like that. But like, have you heard of the Avengers initiative?

But yeah, but the way that they've seated these judges from the beginning of the season,

like, I do think there needs to be something conclusive that happens in the court.

The questional season of Matt Murdoch, like, when Wilson Fisk said to him in the previous episode,

are you going to kill me? You will not. Are you going to arrest me? You cannot.

You know, you can't, you can't get me the legal way and you can't get me your vigilante way.

I'm impervious ways, right? But is there a way in which the law can come back around? This

system that's been so corrupt since Wilson Fisk took over. The courts are corrupt. All the

tears of government are corrupt. But is there a way in the police are certainly corrupt? But is

there a way for justice to shine through in some way in a finale courtroom scene in a way that,

you know, Matt's faith in the system is supported and he does get Wilson Fisk in some sort of legal way?

I could definitely see it. And to me, that's the payoff for not just all of those threads

earlier in the season. But if you're going to make Matt Murdoch the co-counselor in this case,

like, it has to be for more reasons than just to bait out an attack.

Okay, so instead of a physical fight, we get Wilson Fisk on the stand and lawyer Matt Murdoch

cross-examining him. See, I'm into this and beyond that. And to like a very Perry Mason-esque

come on. Getting someone to confess on the stand for a case they're not even on trial for.

You want me on that wall? Yeah, you need me on that wall of the free port. Yes.

I'm very down for it. For what? I love Matt Murdoch cross-examining.

And this episode was a nice subtle reintroduction to that fact. Not in any aggressive way,

just like a gentle prodding. I do think his introductionist co-counsel, though,

like, this is the one thing Kirsten gets to do. And now she doesn't even get to do it.

Like, she's been on the show for two seasons, filing paperwork, being a school marm basically.

And now she doesn't even get to litigate the big case. That's tough.

She had to tell Hawkberg, fuck you earlier this season.

She had to tell him, fuck you. But then she also has this moment with the judge where it's like,

there's no jury to appeal to here. Counselor, she's like, but is there?

The finger guns as she's walking away. Just embarrassing.

Like, I want her to be a good or competent or interesting lawyer and they won't even let her be

that. Okay. I'm with you. I need Justice for Kirsten. But more broadly, Justice for New York.

Justice for all of us. Yeah. Just, here's the thing. Matt Murdoch may not need a system to believe in.

We do. I would like to see one system work. And that's why when Dex killed a bunch of

bento and visual anti-task works. Yeah. I was really into it. All right. Anything else you

want to say before we go? Do you need Heather Gwen full-blown psycho killer in the finale?

Are you content to wait for that? I'm kind of satisfied. Like, look, if she wants to

fuck or choke or kill whoever she wants to do those things to, I'm on board for it now.

You want to look at the camera and say that? I'm just quote-carted and be on our way.

I don't necessarily need that. I think this is what's interesting about this place in the story.

It's like, I feel like a lot of these side characters have had a button of a note on their

individual stories where it's like, if we don't see Buck in the finale, he's kind of like

off in the wind or just kind of like they can't resume like. Dex buttoned up.

Yes. Cherry doesn't even have a story. So who cares?

No. Kirsten. We'll be involved.

Finger gun her way out of here. I need one. I need to call back to the finger gun.

One more finger gun. Let's just do it. Maybe go down the line of judges.

What's the harm? Sure. I think I really did it.

I think we really did. I think we really did it.

Malarubin, you are fondly missed. Always.

But she'll be back for the finale. Thank you Rob Mahoney.

Thank you, Jill. Thank you for having me on for this show that I do quite enjoy.

Yeah, it's great. Rob and I are covering Euphoria, a show we are quite confused by,

but also kind of enjoying. We'll be doing those kind of live on Sunday nights, not like live

live, but we are watching, we have no more screeners. So we're watching Euphoria,

think from this very couch on Sunday nights here in the studio and then recording immediately

after. So if you thought our coverage was unhinged to this point, just wait to see how punchy

they're about to get. Just wait until you see how like five Diet Cokes in Rob is on the microphone.

That's my secret. John, I'm always five Diet Cokes in.

Thank you to Carlishe, Roboga, to our dinner ring with Powell, to Jomi and dinner on Scott Lee,

Jacob Cornett and the whole crew here at Sequoia Studios. Really appreciate you. We'll see you soon. Bye.