Dateline NBC - What's next for Lindsay Clancy? A teen's murder on cruise ship. Plus, does the insanity defense work?

0:00With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs, yet even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply, see CapitalOne.com slash Bank Guy, CapitalOne NAA member FDIC. Granger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Cost climb? Too little? Production slows. Grangers, $2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need when you need it, so you can help keep budgets balanced in lines moving. Call 1-800-Granjer. Click ranger.com or just stop by. Granger, for the once, who get it done. Hi guys. Good morning. It's the start of another work day for

1:07the Dateline team. Supposedly he stages his own kidnapping. Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news. We've got crews ready to go. He was ordered under house arrest with no exception. Stranger things have happened. Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Cunning. It's September 10th and here's what's on our docket. In Florida, the trial of a 16-year-old accused of murdering his step sister on a cruise ship is delayed for a surprising reason. You might think, oh maybe that's a stall tactic, but here's the explanation. In Dateline Roundup, we've got the latest on the Texas man who fled to Italy on the eve of his murder trial. And Barry Morphew, the Colorado husband accused of killing his wife with an animal tranquilizer, is back in court. So Barry was arrested last week and according to a court filing, he was involved in a hit and run crash. Plus, the insanity defense. We heard a lot about it at Lindsay Clancy's trial, but how often is it actually used? When these cases come up, it becomes a battle of the experts.

2:10Before all that, we're heading back to Massachusetts for an update on the explosive final hours of the Clancy trial and where the case goes from here. Last week, a jury of nine women and three men entered their seventh day of deliberations in a case that has transfixed the nation. Lindsay Clancy, the 36-year-old mother and former labor and delivery nurse, accused of murdering her three young children. Prosecutors urged the jury to find Lindsay guilty, saying she deliberately planned the children's deaths. Lindsay's defense argued she was not in her right mind, struggling with postpartum psychosis and a cocktail of medications. Twice, the jury told the judge they were deadlocked. Twice, he sent them back to try to find common ground. Then, on Friday morning, just after 11am, the jury came back with a note that kicked off an extraordinary series of events. Our own Blaine Alexander was there for it all, and is here now to fill us in on the drama inside the courtroom. What jurors have since revealed about their deliberations

3:13and what could happen next. Blaine, thanks for being here. Andrea, thanks so much for having me. So, as we said, Blaine, you were at the Plymouth County Courthouse for the final week of trial. What was it like reporting from there? Set the scene for us. Andrea, I can't overstate for you just how many, of course, traditional media, but just bloggers, people who were streaming, how many people were at that courthouse trying to capture every single moment of what was happening. Yeah, it seems like you can't click on social media or a news website and not see the Lindsay Clancy trial. It has gotten so much attention, Blaine. You're absolutely right, Andrea, and not just from the people, of course, who were there in Plymouth, but there have been people who have really felt some sort of connection to this case. In fact, Lindsay Clancy's attorney, her defense attorney, Kevin Reddington, actually came in holding what he said was a box of letters from people who had just written to her over the course of this trial wanting to show their support. Yeah, she definitely has a lot of support, and then there's people that don't support her. That's right. In addition to the supporters

4:15and the people, of course, who go the other way, there have been a lot of conspiracy theories flying around about this case, specifically about the role that her husband Patrick played in all of this. And so that really has added to just so much of the chatter here and all of this. One of the theories is that Patrick might be responsible for the children's deaths. And we just want to say that he has never been accused of anything by law enforcement or prosecutors. Absolutely. And not only has he not been accused of anything, but Lindsay Clancy herself and her defense attorney have not disputed the fact that she, in fact, killed her children. That's what's making some of these conspiracy theories seem so outlandish. Yes. Because of her confession that she killed the children. Exactly. Yeah. All right. Blaine, let's get into what happened in the courtroom. The last time we checked in on the case, it was day five of deliberations. After saying they were deadlocked, the judge sent the jury back with special instructions, basically saying that there was no better jury that they should do their best to come to a verdict. Blaine, what happened next?

5:16So this was, this was kind of the beginning of perhaps one of the most dramatic periods of a trial that I've ever covered. So Thursday, there was a note that was sent from the four person basically saying that they were 11 to one. And there was one person that they believed had expressed doubt. But wasn't willing to vote for not guilty, basically. And the judge gave instructions, basically read another definition of reasonable doubt and sent them back to begin deliberating again. And you could see defense attorney Kevin Reddington getting upset. He then came out, asked for that juror to be removed. If we come back here in a half an hour with a mistrile because of a, because of a juror that has just spurned the instructions of this court, it's a shame. And that's why my motion is to remove this juror that refuses to listen to your instruction and reasonable doubt. The prosecution opposed that saying that the juror should actually stay on the jury. And ultimately the judge sided with the prosecution on that. I don't feel it's appropriate

6:18for me to say I agree with one juror or 11 deliberations resumed first thing Friday morning. Did you get the sense that there had to be an end in sight now, regardless of what was going to happen. I mean, you can't just keep sending them back. Absolutely. Then we heard there was a note from the jury judge Sullivan read the jurors final note. It is with a heavy heart that we report we are unable to come to a unanimous decision and will not be able to judge Sullivan announced that he he felt that he really didn't have a choice anymore. But to declare a mistrile. Blaine Kevin Reddington, Lindsey's defense attorney did something very bold at that point. It was unbelievable, Andrea. He made a last minute appeal to the state Supreme Court, essentially trying to stop a mistrile from being called. Now, I have to talk to you about the timing of this, Andrea. I kind of equated this to someone if doors are about to close, someone throwing their body in between elevator doors to keep it open because that's exactly what it felt like when we watched him do that.

7:22And we have some sound from judge Sullivan trying to wrap his head around it. I'm just trying to find out what it is that you're asking for. That's all for his time to file a single justice appeal for this travesty. That's what I'm asking for. So you're asking for emergency stay at this point? Yes. So the judge said you have one hour to file that emergency stay with the state Supreme Court and so everyone filed back out of the courtroom and the clock started right then. So many legal twists and turns in this case. What happened next? There was a Zoom meeting that we actually watched members of the defense team go leave the courtroom, go into a side room. We saw the prosecution's team go into a different side room. All of us media were crowded around several laptops in the hallway and we were watching this Zoom meeting live just to see what would happen. And that's when we saw them all basically argue their cases before a Supreme Judicial Court associate justice who ultimately denied that stay. Okay. So with that stay denied, that's when the judge moved ahead declared the mistrile. The judge thanked the jurors for their dedication before dismissing them. Did you see any visible

8:27reactions from the jurors? I would imagine in this case they they had to feel defeated. Oh, it was very clear. I mean, there was a motion on their face. There was one juror, a woman who leaned forward, put her hands on her face. I mean, was clearly upset. That hunched over for a few minutes and then came back up, took her hands down, exhaled audibly. And then for the rest of the time that the judge spoke looked like she was holding back tears. I mean, we're talking about raw emotion coming from people who've dedicated, I mean, weeks of their lives to hearing and trying to decide this case. I wish we could have come through for Lindsay. I feel very sad that we couldn't. I think the biggest thing that kept coming back to me was how many times she asked for help. Earlier this week, three of the jurors, Kelly Farina, Paula Devlin and four person Ronnie Carlson sat down with NBC 10 Boston's Sue O'Connell in an exclusive interview to talk about their experience.

9:29We kept having to bring ourselves back to the fact that she we weren't trying to figure out if she murdered the children. She did. And she's admitting that we're trying to figure out, did she know right from wrong at that time? And with everybody saying she loved her children so much and everything proved she loved her children from our journals to her mother-in-law, everything proved that she loved her children. So she had to have snapped and not known what she was doing. As for the holdout juror? He admitted he had reasonable doubt and I started filling out the forms. I was so excited. I actually, there were three forms I had to fill out and I started filling them out. I wrote my signature on each one and then he said, but I'm still not going to say that she's not guilty by reason of insane. Now like the rest of us, the three jurors are wondering what

10:29comes next. That she should be retried. I would like to see her being inside. I would like to not see retry her. That she chooses to. I will be in that. What one? Blaine, the district attorney spoke outside the courtroom immediately after the mistrial was called. Do you know what the state is going to do? Yeah, we heard first from the district attorney Tim Cruz, who said he hasn't decided whether or not he's going to retry this. And we should say he really defends this case and why his office took it to trial. He did. And he spoke pretty passionately. This was and has always been about getting justice for those three little babies. We're here at this courthouse today because those children are not. Kevin Reddington, the defense attorney on the other hand said if they try and prosecute her again, we're ready to go as soon as next week. Like bring it on. Let's do it. He did, however, mention though that he was concerned about Lindsey. I thought it would be very difficult for her to withstand another case. That's not

11:32right what she had to go through because she grieves the loss of those three children. Korra, Dawson and Kalin. We know that there's going to be a status hearing on September 29th, regarding the next steps. And in the meantime, Lindsey Clancy is going to remain where she has been this entire time. That's Tuxbury Hospital, which is a state run psychiatric hospital. And she's been there for the better part of three and a half years now. Her ex-husband, Patrick Clancy, released two statements. What did he want to get across, Blaine? A couple of things. He wanted to get across that he was very grateful to the jury for their hard work. But he didn't want to make the point that the possibility of having to essentially relive this tragedy of losing his children through another trial was extraordinarily painful. And then, yes, Andrea, he released a statement on Tuesday with a very different tone pushing back against those conspiracy theories that we talked about. He basically said enough is enough and he threatened legal action. It will be interesting to see how the state responds to Patrick Clancy because we know

12:42that they often consult families when making decisions like this. I will say that spending the amount of time that I did in Plymouth, this has been extraordinarily hard on everybody in this community. And I can't overstate that enough. You know, when you have a trial that is so high profile, it's just it's a lot for everyone involved. Blaine, we know that you will stay on this case and we're so grateful for your reporting from the courthouse. Of course, thanks so much for having me, Andrea. Coming up, family tension and the run-up to the trial of a teen charged with murdering his step sister. As new materials start picking up, IXL gives kids personalized practice that aligns with what they're learning in school and helps strengthen important skills. IXL is an award-winning online learning platform, helps kids truly understand what they're learning, whether they're building

13:42math confidence or strengthening reading and writing skills or reviewing science concepts. From pre-K to 12th grade, IXL offers personalized interactive learning that adapts to each child's level pace and learning needs, whether they need more practice with a challenging concept or are ready to keep progressing. So kids can practice what they're learning in school, reinforce the concepts they know and spend more time on the skills where they need extra support. They can impact on your child's learning with IXL and deadline listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership. When they sign up today at IXL.com slash deadline. If you've been waiting for the right time to tackle your weight loss goals, this is it. Hers now offers access to an affordable range of FDA-approved gel P1 medications including the Bogovi pill and the Bogovi pen. With Bogovi's at hers, lose up to 20% of your body weight when combined with diet and exercise and helps regulate appetite, eat less and keep weight off. And as the first-ever gel P1 pill for weight loss, there are no needles

14:42needed. Everything is 100% online. A license provider determines if treatment is right for you and if prescribed medication is delivered to your door. No insurance necessary. You'll also get 24-7 care team messaging, in app lifestyle nutrition support and a personalized treatment plan with unlimited doses changes as needed. Hers offers affordable gel P1 options to fit your needs and budget if eligible. Ready to reach your goals? Visit for hers.com slash deadline to get personalized affordable care that gets you. That's f-o-r-h-e-r-s.com slash deadline. Weight loss by hers is not available in all 50 states. Bogovi is the registered trademark of Nova Nordes Gas to get started and learn more including important safety information. Bogovi clinical study information and restrictions. Visit for hers.com. This episode is brought to you by Penn Foster. Sometimes things don't go as planned, especially with high school. When you start to feel like you're falling behind, having another option can make a real difference. Penn Foster High School is an accredited online diploma program built for flexibility. So whether you're hoping to go back and finish what you

15:45started or you're the parent of a teen who needs a different approach to education, there is a way forward. With self-paced courses, you have the freedom to learn on your own schedule. That way you can fit school around everything else going on in your life and stop falling behind. Don't just get back on track. Start moving forward with Penn Foster. Visit penfoster.edu slash deadline to learn more. In November of last year, the Carnival Horizon cruise ship docked in Miami after a voyage to the Caribbean. But before passengers finished disembarking, FBI agents stormed the ship to begin investigating a horrifying crime. The FBI is investigating the mysterious death of a woman on board a carnival cruise ship. The victim was 18-year-old Anna Capner, a high school senior and cheerleader. She had been sexually assaulted and strangled to death in her cabin. A few months later, Anna's stepbrother, 16-year-old Timothy Hudson, surrender to law enforcement and was charged with her murder.

16:50This week, Timothy, who has pleaded not guilty, was supposed to go to trial, but an unusual legal request from his defense attorney stopped everything in its tracks. Here to bring us up to speed on the cases NBC News correspondent Jesse Kirsch, Jesse, thanks for being here. Thanks for having me, Andrea. Jesse, before we get into the details of this tragic crime, tell us more about Anna Capner. Yeah, so I remember this from when we were covering the immediate aftermath. Her family was describing her as someone who had a quote, bright and beautiful soul. She was soon to be graduating high school. She grew up and was living in Titusville, Florida. That's between Orlando and the Kennedy Space Center for people who aren't familiar. She had plans of possibly joining the US Navy after high school. And then everything, of course, completely changes. And suddenly, her car is at her high school parking lot covered in flowers and balloons and it's become a memorial. Really, really sad. Do we know anything about her relationship with her stepbrother before this

17:52happened? We know that they were sharing a room on board the cruise ship according to what has come out in this case from prosecutors and his younger brother was also sharing that room with them, but it's not clear how long they had had a relationship before their parents had gotten married. If they had one Anna's father and her stepbrother's mom had only been married about 11 months before this happened. Jesse, what did you learn about the circumstances of her death on that cruise ship? The way this unfolded is there were crew members that allegedly found Anna Ketner's body wrapped in a blanket or a bedsheet under her bed in her cabin on the cruise ship. According to records from the Miami-Dade Medical Examiner's office, Anna Ketner had bruising on her neck because of death has been determined to be asphyxia. So, effectively, she was choked. And also the medical examiner suspected she'd been sexually assaulted. Do we know how quickly Timothy,

18:55her stepbrother fell under suspicion for her death? Yes. So, according to what we've learned from court documents, the medical examiner did a rape kit during the autopsy and investigators got a search warrant to get DNA from her stepbrother pretty quickly. And according to court documents, prosecutors say his DNA is a match to the DNA from the rape kit. He was charged with Anna's murder in February, but initially as a juvenile. So, everything was kept under seal, but that changed in April, right? Yes. So, he was 16 when this alleged murder happened. He was being looked at as a minor. And then months later, he is then charged as an adult. They're essentially saying it's the seriousness of the crimes that being charged as an adult now is more appropriate. Jesse, what else do we know about the prosecution's case? Yes. So, of course, DNA evidence is huge, right? But they also say they have surveillance footage that illustrates some of the events that

19:56unfolded. So, what prosecutors say is that CCTV footage from the ship showed Timothy Hudson entering the cabin, which again, he was sharing with Anna Keppner around 730 pm. And within minutes, Anna Keppner goes into that same cabin according to the footage. And here's the key part of this, Andrea. The footage does not show Anna Keppner ever leave that room again. That of course helps illustrate her movements and where they stop. And then the next day, surveillance footage from the cruise ship appears to show Timothy Hudson dumping something in a trash can. And the reason that is getting attention is because prosecutors talk about how Anna Keppner's phone had been smashed and was found in a trash can later on. As the prosecution offered any kind of a theory of a possible motive here. So, they haven't shared much. They haven't, right? We have not gone to trial here yet. So, we have not heard the full case from prosecutors, but there was testimony that came

20:58from law enforcement that Anna Keppner's ex-boyfriend says that there was a FaceTime call he was on with her. She fell asleep and the call was still going. And he saw Anna Keppner's stepbrother allegedly trying to get into her bed. That's of course one incident that is alleged, right? Important to say that. It's an allegation, but that same ex-boyfriend talks about Anna Keppner allegedly being nervous because Timothy Hudson had knives. So, prosecutors are at least putting out there that they are thinking about a possible tension with that relationship there. What has the defense said about all of this? Importantly, let's also talk about what they have not said. The defense does not deny that there could have been a sexual encounter between Anna Keppner and Timothy Hudson, but the defense also says that prosecutors do not have proof that this was anything other than a consensual interaction. The defense has also pointed out that there's no camera inside the room, right? So, we don't know

22:02exactly what happened. And he is being tried in federal court, Timothy. His trial has been delayed. Yet, so his defense team actually asked for this delay, right? You have the right to a speedy trial, but his defense team requested a delay saying they want more time to prepare. And that's something that you might think, oh, maybe that's a stall tactic, but here's the explanation from the defense team. The defense said in part, quote, the unique and very unfortunate family dynamic that has resulted from the allegations here is prompting them to want this delay. And that is contributing to challenges in how they are able to prepare their case and get to know the circumstances surrounding their clients life before this unfolded and what may have allegedly led him to do something. And in the motion, the defense is talking about how they don't have access to certain family members that would help facilitate their investigation. That's right. So the judge granted the defense's request to delay the trial. So what happens next, Jesse? The new trial date is November

23:072nd, but we'll see if that actually happens if it gets delayed again. Or of course, Andrew, there's always the possibility there could be a plea agreement before this even goes to trial. Jesse, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me, Andrea. Up next, it's time for date line roundup. Barry Morphew, the Colorado husband, accused of murdering his wife over Mother's Day weekend in 2020, faces a judge. And new charges for one of the people accused of murdering Microsoft employee and father of four, Jared Bridegain. Plus, the insanity defense, how often do people use it and does it actually work? For kids, summer means freedom. And as adults, summer still means freedom. Thanks to mint mobile summer sale. Right now, all of mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. Free yourself from big wireless and switch to mint for high speed data and coverage on the T-Mobile 5G network. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the

24:12nation's largest 5G network. You can even bring your current phone and your number to get your wireless plan for just $15 a month. Go to mintmobile.com slash date line. That's mintmobile.com slash date line. Cut your wireless build a $15 a month that mintmobile.com slash date line. That's it. There's no catch. Up front payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 months, plan required, $15 a month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy, includes up to 20 gigabytes hotspot, capable device required. Availability speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. You know those pieces in your closet as you find yourself reaching for over and over again. The sweater that somehow works with everything or the bag you carry everywhere. Those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe and that's exactly what Quince does so well and it's not just a parallel. Quince brings

25:15that same approach to everything they make from bedding and bath to kitchen essentials and more. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because, according to Quince, they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen so you're paying for quality not brand markup. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers. Go to quince.com slash date line. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com slash date line. Get the most out of your money with chime. Chime offers fee-free banking with no overdraft fees, monthly fees or minimum balance fees. You get 5% cashback on chime card, make category of choice like gas or groceries. Plus you can grow your money faster with a savings

26:15rate that's nine times the national average. And if you're ever in a pinch, spot me that's you overdraft up to $200 fee-free. Join the millions who are already banking fee-free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.com slash date line. That's chime.com slash date line. Sign up now. Only takes a few minutes. Chime is a FinTech, not a bank, banking services and chime card provided by Chimes bank partners, qualifying direct deposits required terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details. Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is date line producer Rachel White. Hey Rachel. Hey Andrea, thanks for having me. Our first story, Rachel, is out of Boulder, Colorado. And we have an update in the case of Barry Morpheu. It's actually been a while since we've heard Barry's name. He is accused of murdering his wife Suzanne Morpheu who went missing on

27:17Mother's Day 2020. Barry was initially arrested for her murder in 2021 only for prosecutors to drop the charges. Then after Suzanne's remains were found in 2023, Barry was charged with her murder for a second time. Rachel, remind us how the prosecution is connecting Barry to Suzanne's death. Yeah. So according to prosecutors, the medical examiner found something called BAM in Suzanne's body, which is a veterinary grade animal tranquilizer. And they say official records show Barry was the only private citizen in the area at the time of Suzanne's disappearance who had access to the drug. Barry has played a not guilty and until recently was on house arrest after posting $3 million bond waiting for the start of his trial. Rachel, he had some pretty strict conditions on his bond, right? He did. Barry was not allowed to leave the house except for work, court hearings, and medical appointments. So it was pretty strict. Yeah. Which brings us to a twist in this case,

28:20something that I did not see coming, Rachel. Yeah. So Barry was arrested last week. And according to a court filing, he was involved in a hit and run crash with two other vehicles back in late August in the Denver area. And on Tuesday, he was back in court to answer some tough questions from the judge. So how did authorities even find out that he was allegedly involved in this hit and run? Well, the judge said that she received an email from a quote unquote concerned citizen and reviewed a video of the incident taken by one of the victims who then confronted the man who hit their car. And the judge said the man on the video is very clearly Barry Morpheu. CBS Colorado acquired the video from one of the victims. Let's play a clip of it. According to the victim, Barry Morpheu fled the scene after he was informed the police were coming

29:22at the hearing. The prosecutor said that GPS data from Morpheu's ankle bracelet suggests he was driving to the Denver airport at the time of the alleged hit and run. Rachel, do we know why? According to prosecutors, it could have been to pick up his daughter, but that would be a violation of his bail conditions. And the judge said there was no indication whatsoever that he was at the airport in a working capacity at the time of the crash. We had no purpose in being at the airport at the no-vision purpose. What did the judge ultimately decide? So the judge decided to raise Barry's bond to $10 million cash only. She said that if Barry post-bond, he will not be able to leave the house for any reason except to go to court or if there's a medical emergency involving an ambulance. Okay. Now we are going to Jacksonville, Florida for an interesting development in the case of murdered Microsoft employee Jared Bride again. He was gunned down in February, 2022 when he got out of his car to move a tire lying in the road. We talked a few weeks ago on the podcast

30:25about the trial of Mario Fernanda Saldana, one of the three people who have been charged in connection with Jared's murder. Rachel, give us a quick recap. So Mario Fernanda Saldana is married to Jared's ex-wife, Shanna Gardner. Shanna and Jared shared two young children and prosecutors argued at Mario's recent trial that Shanna and Jared's disputes over their children had become so bitter that Shanna and Mario plotted to hire a hitman to kill Jared. Mario was convicted, but Shanna and the alleged hitman, a man who rented property from Mario by the name of Henry Tenon, have yet to go to trial. They both have pleaded not guilty. Shanna Gardner's trial was supposed to start last week, but her defense asked for a continuance because of disturbing new allegations that came out about Mario just a day after he was convicted. Yeah, so Mario has been charged with two counts of loot or lascivious molestation. And prosecutors say he molested two young victims in 2020 and 2022 respectively. He is yet to enter a plea in that

31:29case. How does this affect Shanna's case now? Well, Gardner's defense now says this new evidence against Mario could prove that he had a motive to kill Jared, independent of Shanna, and they need time to investigate that. Rachel, what are they alleging the motive could be here? So they're saying the motive could be that Jared found out about Mario's alleged molestation, so Mario needed a way to essentially keep him quiet. What did the judge decide? Judge Landon Kite has pushed the trial date to May of 2027. Okay, thank you for these updates, Rachel. Thank you. As we talked about earlier, the Lindsey Clancy trial hinged on whether jurors would buy her defense that she was not in her right mind when she killed her children. Trial's involving the insanity defense are few and far between. So it made us wonder how do they actually work? And how do you prove to a jury what was going on in someone's mind at the time of a crime? We asked our friend, defense attorney and NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos to break it down

32:32for us. Hey, Danny. Hey, Andrea. So we're so used to talking about trials that involve evidence, forensics, timelines, facts, you know, debating whether someone is insane or not is something entirely different. Danny, where do you even start? That's right. And the insanity defense, the concept of insanity is a legal one, not a medical one. And just suffering from a mental illness or disorder, it's not enough. What is the standard of proof in a courtroom when we're talking about this? This is so fascinating because when you think of all the advancements we've made in the world of mental health, many courts still use the test that was developed in the 19th century called the Minoton test. We all learned it in law school. And it came about in 1843 when an Englishman, Daniel MacKnotten, shot and killed the Prime Minister's secretary, believing that the Prime Minister was conspiring against him. Of course, the Prime Minister was not. He was acquitted by reason of

33:36insanity. And that gave us the Minoton test. Basically, a defendant has to prove one of two things. Either that as a result of that mental illness or defect, the defendant either didn't know what she was doing or that she didn't know what was right and wrong. And by the way, the important thing to know about right and wrong is it's not your own subjective awareness of right and wrong. It's whether you're aware that society deems what you're doing to be wrong. Danny, we know that in criminal cases, the defendant is innocent until proven guilty. So how does the burden of proof work when it comes to insanity? This is going to sound silly, but is a person sane until proven insane? No, that's a great way of putting it. And the reason you're right is that insanity is called an affirmative defense. And an affirmative defense is essentially where you say, okay, you have all these underlying elements of a crime. But I as the defendant say there are additional facts in addition to those underlying facts that essentially excuse my conduct or exonerate me.

34:39Juristictions vary on whether or not the defendant has the burden of proof. So for example, in federal court, the burden is on the defendant to prove by clear and convincing evidence that he is insane. All what a difference in Massachusetts, which I believe has the most forgiving, most beneficial defense oriented insanity defense in Massachusetts. Once insanity is raised, the prosecution has the burden to disprove insanity and beyond a reasonable doubt. The highest standard in our legal system. It almost sounds subjective, you know, depending on where you are or what kind of court you're in. You couldn't be more right. And that's why when these cases come up, it becomes a battle of the experts. And as you can imagine, if you can find a medical expert on things like broken bones or nerve damage that say complete opposite things at trial, you can imagine that you can find medical providers and experts in the mental health area that can testify to

35:44completely different conclusions about a criminal defendant. And that is exactly what happened in the Lindsey Clancy trial. All right. I know that there's no like real like stats on this. But anecdotally, how often does the insanity defense work? Rare. It's rarely used because it's a huge gambit. You have to admit to the underlying conduct. And moreover, you're going to be institutionalized even if you succeed. Yeah. I mean, you know, you think, oh, it feels lighter maybe if they're found guilty by reason of insanity, but they are still locked up. Exactly. Right. So there isn't any hard rule for how long folks are kept in these institutions. But from what I've seen, and this is just anecdotal, they generally keep them a long time. Yeah. I mean, Andrea Yates, she drowned her five children after she said she heard a voice telling her to do it. At her second trial, a jury found her not guilty by reason of insanity. And she is still in the mental institution. But in a twist, she actually didn't want to leave. Yeah. Not surprisingly. There are folks who maybe find that the

36:49treatment is helping them with regards to Andrea, the jury finding her not guilty by reason of insanity. Why do you think the jury went with that verdict in her case? So similar to Lindsey Clancy. Yeah. I mean, I've heard a lot of the same things during the Lindsey Clancy trial. And it's kind of a circular conclusion, which is, and you probably heard a lot of this, no sane person would kill their three children. Therefore, the horror of the crime itself is evidence of insanity. And I get that, you hear a lot of folks say that. And maybe that's what happens in these cases where mothers kill their children that jurors are more willing than they otherwise would be to accept and consider an insanity defense for that reason. Anyone who would do this, the thinking goes, has to be insane. Thank you so much for your insight into this. I'm sure we'll see you back here again soon, Danny. Thank you for this. Thank you. That's it for this episode of Date Line True Crime Weekly.

37:50Make sure to check out Lester's new podcast series before and after with Lester Holt. Starting on September 14th, he'll be talking to Jeremy Renner, Colin Kaepernick, Gabby Giffords and others about the moments that changed their lives forever and their resilience in the face of the unimaginable. What's the length of that? If you're going to die, you don't want to die, though. To get early access to the first episode now, subscribe to Date Line Premium. And coming up this Friday on Date Line on the 25th anniversary of 9-11, stories of courage and survival featuring rarely seen NBC News Archive footage from Ground Zero that day, plus powerful and emotional new interviews with the people our cameras caught during the terrorist attacks. Second plane came in and hit and I turned and I got the fireball and the explosion and it was then that everybody knew absolutely knew this was not an accident. Watch Facing Ground Zero at 10-9 Central on Date Line on NBC. Thanks for listening.

38:53Date Line True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey and Keone Reed. Our Associate Producers are Ellery Gladstone Groth and Ariya Young, Production and Fact Checking held by Macy Hanslick Barand. Our Senior Producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff. Veronica Mosaic is our Digital Producer, Rick Juan is our Sound Designer, Original Music by Jesse McGinty, Paul Ryan is Executive Producer and Liz Cole is Senior Executive Producer of Date Line. Mazda has been named Consumer Reports safest new car brand. It starts with our approach. Every Mazda comes standard with proactive safety features, so you're more aware of what's around you, more focused on the road ahead, and ready before problems ever start. Mazda, more of what matters most to you, go to MazdaUSA.com to learn more.

39:54Consumer Reports is not indoors or promote any product.