Dating Apps Were Never About Romance

0:00I have been told by Multilimended as a woman if you choose to pay or you want to pay and even to split it on date one, that it seems like not romantic, or you're in your masculine energy and it makes them feel like cucked out, basically. Oh my god. Every word in that sentence is why y'all are struggling. Okay. Welcome back to engagement party, the show where we reverse engineer the internet in real time. I'm Adi Cornish. I'm Ari Shapiro and last week of course we talked to the celebrated TV director hero Mariah and you all had some thoughts about that. We asked him whether 40s were the new 30s and on Instagram at Kampor World said everyone gets three years back for COVID tax, which I actually think is a very good policy. I appreciate that. Also, Carmag 4244 said 40 is the new 40 enough with the foolishness we see you. All right. So what are we talking about today? This week it is dating in 2026, which this is not a joyful summer of love episode. People are down on romance. They are

1:04and they're down on romance. They're talking about it online and then the media is turning up these stories that they've been doing for the last two, three years that Gen Z doesn't have the same amount of sexist past generations. They don't date. They don't this. They don't do that. And then you go online and you see something like this. I'm going to play for you a clip from a person who goes by Chloe Bo explaining it in a nutshell why they are off the market. I've dated enough men on the spectrum of good guy to doesn't give a shit to know that they have nothing I want or need. And it's at the point where I can't even imagine myself on a date with a man because I thought of asking him how his day was makes me cringe like number one, I don't care. And number two, if you tell me it was bad, I'm going to assume you deserved it. Like that's where my head's at. Wow. I'm going to assume you deserve it. That's where her head's at. But I think it's not just her because I feel like every time I look at Viet Lanark or New York magazine or the New Yorker, there is some headline about hetero pessimism or hetero fatalism or the trouble with men. But I kind

2:07of think people have been complaining about dating to their friends forever. And now one difference, of course, is that people can complain about dating to the public on the social media platforms, but has the experience of dating actually meaningfully changed in 2026 and how? That's the question I want to try to answer today. That's fair. I started with an extremely rigorous and scientific study of the young people who report to me. Who had no choice but to respond. So here's some examples. Kendall, 23, male Washington DC says dating has become more difficult because people are chasing perfect partners when reality nobody is perfect. Harris, 22 female Washington DC says, my boyfriend and I have been dating since college and being with him has been the gift of a lifetime. But I would rather be alone forever than get back into the dating scene in DC. This is my favorite Annie Grace Pittsburgh, 22. She says dating in 2026 is literally like finding

3:09a needle in a haystack and if you find a needle, cling on for dear life. I actually have noticed this summer in pop culture depictions of dating that to me sum it up very clearly in wildly different genres in horror and in comedy. I'm so far. Right. I want to play you first, the horror depiction of this, the massive breakout movie hit obsession, which basically depicts hanging onto the needle for dear life. Yeah, well, it's like the man forces the woman into some sort of nightmareish servitude that she's trapped in and becomes a monster against her will. This is from the session romantic. No, no, no, what? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't stand there. I thought we were having a nice day. We are smart. This is early in the relationship when he's

4:09realizing the monster that he has created and she gets to act her face off. I thought we were having a nice day. I thought we were having a nice day. And then the comedy version from season five of Hacks, Ava Daniels, played by Hannah Einnbinder, has this one throwaway line that I think kind of captures a sentiment about heterosexual dating in 2026. God, there was something so exciting about getting ready for a date with a man. It's the tiny thread of being killed at the end of the night. The tiny thread of being killed at the end of the night. OK, this is why this is important. I'm glad you played this, because that character is queer on the show, right? She dates men and women. She's just kind of like very in the show's generational in that way, trying to show the differences. I feel like we underestimate the questions raised by the Me Too movement. OK. That for all the people who were like, it was way better in the before times when I met somebody cold in a bar in a place, then we went back and I met someone at work and then all these kind of horror stories came out.

5:10If you're 22, that was like six, seven years ago. That means you have a different lens on some of the stuff that older people are romanticizing now about dating culture. But on the flip side of I might get killed at the end of the night is... Which is not what I'm saying it was, but... Women saying men won't pursue me. Men are too anxious to introverted, to afraid, and as somebody who neither dates women nor has been on the dating market for many, many years, I feel like I can look at those two sides of the coin and say, what is it? So I think we should disclose our own limitations, outsider status, should I say? OK, we've both been married since the Stone Age. Yes, we've been married since the Stone Age, but seriously, where did you meet? OK, my husband and I met in college. I literally, when we started talking about this episode,

6:14needed to clarify whether swipe right was good and swipe left was bad or vice versa. Not knowledgeable about that. That's how long I have been committed. But did you meet it in person? No, we met doing a musical at the end of our freshman year. We started dating our junior year, and when did you and Theomy? We met in ways that I don't think are like kosher now or like socially inevitable. What is that name? Well, I'm almost 10 years younger than him, and we met at work. I always forget that. I feel like none of that is allowed anymore, OK? But he wasn't your boss. I mean, listening, you are already making Gen X excuses. I hear it. I hear it, Elder Millennial. No, no, we're not getting into the generational debate again. Why, it's so good for virality. So you've been together since you were hailed? 22. The way you exhale them. But listen, as journalists, we have spent our college like a Smith college debutant. You know what I mean? I like enter the work world, like, hello, have a tie brand.

7:14And you was like, bloop, got that. No, that's not how it was. The things we did in our courtship, they were outside. They were even have a cell phone. Oh my god. But the point is the sense of we're going to spend time together to get to know each other, and we're going to do things to accomplish that, because we don't know each other is real. And there is something different about finding everything out about the person online, right? Or having even your initial dialogue online and never quite consummating that literally just in person. The apps are aware that the ground is shifting underneath them and they're trying to adapt in ways that to me don't sound like they necessarily solve the problem. But for example, Bumble, which was founded on the idea that women have to reach out first, is now saying men could reach out first. So this guy's name is Alex Enrique online. He was doing some posts about what he perceives as like problems with dating for people

8:14who are emotionally available, who people who aren't trying to go, is aren't trying to run, aren't trying to avoid vulnerability. Here we go. Effectively, emotionally available people are having the hardest time, because in dating, we've just become so rewired to expect people to be capricious and to expect uncertainty. We're so used to repression and expecting uncertainty. Go on a few days to summer, that person falls off the rostri, I don't know how these words. And so I think that when we have emotionally available data who knows what they want, they're giving clear communication, boundaries, consistency, all through intentionality. And I think that'd be conflated with pressure. Oh, I really like this. I'm gonna need you to explain this, because I didn't understand one word. Okay, so first of all, what he's saying is that if you're a person who communicates in an environment where communication is not necessarily valued, people may feel that as you pressuring them to get into a relationship. I say, LL emoji and you say, okay, but how do you really feel that translates to your pressure in me? I mean, I don't know for this generation, because they use the term catching feelings,

9:15which is the same thing you would say about a disease. But the point is he used the term roster. Yeah, I don't know what that is. What do you do know? Well, I know a sports team roster. What do you do with the roster when someone goes down? When someone in and you take someone out. Okay, now do it. So is this like, here's the person I most wanted to, here's the second, third, fourth, fifth choice. No, it means you keep a couple of people. You keep a couple of irons in the fire. Yeah, because well, it cost you nothing. You're just on your phone. Okay, but here's where I come down. But I had two boyfriends once. Let me tell you. It was a lot of work. Clearly communicate. It was a lot of work. Are you actually talking about a time you had two boyfriends? Listen, it was a lot of work. Let me pull up a seat. I know. I'm going to use it as an example, though. Just because it's not hypothetical. So first it comes to your house. You're talking to that person. Now you get to get the person out of your house. Right? This is serious. If you weren't serious about me, then why should I pretend I'm your exclusive girlfriend? That's right. For somebody who's very concerned about her parents watching this podcast, I'm amazed that you were talking about it.

10:16I know. I had six by now. No, but which two boyfriends. I'm obsessed. Whatever, it was the 90s and it was high school. The point is I could just like, like somebody's story and then slip into a DM over here and then say a little something over there. And flirt with this person here and blah, blah, blah. It was work, y'all. And I think a lot of you, it's way easier to do these very, very low effort breadcrumbings than it is to actually have to deal with people. Okay, there was a phrase that I want to bring into the conversation. It was in a New York Times piece that referred to heterosexuality's clumsy process of querying itself into a more fluid future. What do you think querying itself means? I think queer people have always had to negotiate with each other, not just because of untraditional relationships, but also because of anything from what are you into, what makes you feel good, how do you approach dating, how do you approach commitment? These are conversations that queer people

11:17have always been having, have always had to have. And I think straight people are, well, as the New York Times says, clumsily inching towards this, but there are still way too many straight people who don't know how to use their words, who don't know how to have the conversation. That's funny, because whenever I meet someone who's poly, they use too many words. Like I feel like I'm in an age of 30. Also, far from the other side of the problem. I don't want to be at a conference table for you. You know, the great sex columnist Dan Savage has often talked about the four words that every queer person knows how to use that most straight people don't, which is, what are you into? Because when two same sex people get together, it's not assumed that they are going to have a certain kind of sex. Now that's a reference to your right. You're right. But with dating too, I think it's not that there's one answer and one path, it's that you have to communicate about whether you're looking for something casual or something serious, or you have another boyfriend on the side, or you have a spouse on the side. Which are you would never do? Apparently.

12:18I'm a very good communicator. So innocent with this face he is. For two people who've been married a long time to talk about this as long as we have, is admirable, but maybe a little bit of a stress. That's fair. We've talked about it a lot, even though we have no experience with it. I want to bring in someone who actually knows what they're talking about. She wrote the screenplay for the Olivia Wild movie, I want your sex. She made a show for vice called Slut-Ever. She has a memoir. She has a sub-stack. She has basically, she's been called the 21st century Carrie Bradshaw, when we come back from a quick break, Carly Shortina. Hi, it's me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. In case you haven't heard, and I don't know how that's possible, you're obviously not seeing my Instagram stories, but I have a podcast. I know, I know, I know. I didn't think there was enough podcasts, especially podcast hosted by actors. So here I am.

13:19It's called Dinner's On Me, and it's actually pretty special to me. It combines two things that I absolutely love, eating and connecting with people. So in each episode, I take an old friend or a new friend out to a fabulous meal, and as we break bread, we dive into everything from imposter syndrome and mental health to being a new parent, navigating new relationships. It's fun because you truly get to be a fly on the wall for some really intimate conversations. So please pull up a chair, join us. You can listen to Dinner's On Me, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I see Carly. Hi. Whoa. Hey. Hi. Hey, how are you? We're back with Carly Shortino talking to us from LA. Thank you for getting up for us because we need help, girl. We need help. We need help. We need help. You do? Okay, Sam. I'll try my best. The reason we are coming to you is because you have been

14:21in the dating pool actively for the last 20 years that we have been out of the dating pool and writing about it. Yes. So the question I have is people have been complaining about dating for as long as people have been dating, what makes 2026 different? We're maybe more tired than ever. I mean, okay. I think there's multiple things that make it different. I mean, of course, people always complain about dating, people always complain about the opposite sex. But I do think we've really hit a point of dating app fatigue and beyond fatigue, it's actually burnout. And I think that because of social media now, we are so informed. We can just live in this world where our opinions about dating and the opposite sex are confirmed endlessly because of our phones. But I really will say. I was like a feedback loop. Yeah, it's like a feedback loop. But I really will say I do think that we've reached

15:21an era of serious burnout when it comes to trying to find true connections to these apps. Because when the apps first came out, it was a little bit like any app, right? Like Uber, it's like, wait, what? I can just call a taxi here anytime I like. I mean, I'll know what the price is. I think people felt like some delight in the freedom and choice and connection that was on offer from apps, that all of a sudden, and in a way, people jokes about it bringing kind of a cruising culture to the streets. And yes, you're right. We've reached some tipping point where people are like actively mad, upset, giving up on the app part of it. I genuinely believe that in the future, we're gonna look back at dating apps and be like, wait. Why did we do that? We're thinking about it's getting lead paint. Yeah, no, it's getting lead. It is psychological, lead paint, correct. Correct, that's perfect. Because it's just like, here's a thing about the apps.

16:22They were sold to us, never as romance, right? They were sold to us as efficiency, right? As better search optimization, right? More options, but it turns out that that promise was truly and statistically not true. Right, they're not more efficient. It's actually an enormous amount of sunken time. And I feel like romance needs, you know, some sponsored naity, it needs some friction. And I think that like the apps completely erase that. Yeah, with your bi-definition frictionless, it's the whole point. Can you tell us how this translates to your life and your experience on the dating scene? Yeah, so I basically, I've been on and off apps for years. I'm 40 now, I was one of the first, you know, guinea pigs of apps when they came out. Yeah. You know, about like just over 10 years ago now, and I remember at the beginning, there was something very interesting about it.

17:23I lived in New York at the time. And I was like, wow, you can meet just like anybody. Yes, yeah, me. It's like, I'm usually meeting these like, limp, risted, like, writer guys drinking ginge, gin gimlets and Brooklyn, and like, I'm sick of them. And like now I'm going out with like a random podiatrist from Queens. And like, this is crazy. And then the dragon. The dating podiatrist from Queens. I know. And then the novelty is crazy. And then it turns out that actually, it's boring quite quickly because you're like, oh, my life choice is actually filter for people who I have like stuff in common with. And if I would never meet you in my regular life, like maybe that's for a reason. So what's the alternative to the apps? Like if you say you've gone on and off when you're off, what do you do? What's the thing? So, okay. It doesn't tell going outside, shock horror, you have to leave your house. Oh my God. I do, okay, so I did a lot of different things. I have, where's on apps a lot on and off

18:24over the last four years. Which is, I mean, like a, a point that whenever I would go somewhere, I would be like, does anyone know someone to set me up with? Even if you're like a party with like 10, 50 people. And then being open, I think the key is being open to going out with someone who you wouldn't authentically and maybe choose yourself. But I also think sometimes friends and friends of friends might have a better idea of what actually would be good for you. No, no, I'm so glad you're saying this because I had to, I just wanted to Google. I was like, if you're a young person, you go on to the internet and you say, how did people meet before the internet? One of the things they describe is what you just said. And that that means you're bringing people, you're getting people who are air quotes vetted. Like there's a kind of vetting that happens. And I thought this was surprising, accountability. Because now I, a person who loves you has brought someone into your life. And if that person sucks, you feel bad about it.

19:24And the person dating knows that like, oh, well, my friend set me up with this person. I don't want to treat them poorly. It's going to get back to that friend. That is such a good point. I hadn't even thought of it, describe that way. But to your point, yes, just saying out loud, I want this is significant and very much how it can be done. Like it doesn't have to be the apps. I think that's a really, really good point because it's true, the accountability is real. And you're going to be more likely to be on your best behavior. And I will say the apps do create a situation in which most of us men and women, you can get a way of being on your worst behavior. You can be up late at night, talking with a new match and you're talking about, you know, you're their childhood trauma. And then the next day, they literally disappear. And you're like, why did I, what was this weird three hour black hole I went into last night? Oh, no, I didn't even thought of that. Yeah, there's no accountability on the apps. And I think like, because you're treated badly so much

20:27and there's sort of these like microwerjections, then it becomes like a system where that's normal. And then you do it too, the things you can plan about, you become the trash you're complaining about. Carly, can I put some numbers on the anecdotes that you're sharing because I think it's easy for people watching and listening to be like, oh, well, that's so-and-so's experience. But okay, surveys show more than half of single men and women report feeling pessimistic about finding a partner they will be happy with. This number struck me fewer than four in 10 women who've never been married believe that dating apps are a safe way to meet people. Less than 40% safe. That is a 23 point drop since 2019. How about this one? 62% of Americans say dating is more difficult today than it was a decade ago. So this is not just anecdotal. Like the numbers show people who are dating don't feel good about it. Well, people who are dating on the apps don't feel good about it, probably. Well, but generally optimism about finding a good partner

21:27is down. Generally, the numbers show, I mean, oh my God, this one is crazy. 84% of millennials and Gen Z say they have been ghosted at the end of a relationship. 84% ghosted at the end of a relationship. That's not just like a three hour late night chat. I'm so sorry for these people who are in this world. No, it's not just vibes. I mean, there's another statistic that's been making the rounds in headlines recently, which is 45% of women between the ages of 25 and 44 are projected to be single by 2030. Have you heard that one? Yes. And the question is, do people look at that and say, women's empowerment, we don't need a man, or do they look at that and say, I'm so sad I'll be all alone forever. I think they're saying we don't need a man. We're seeing a lot of content of people being like, I'll live without, it's fine. Yes, I think they're saying both and it depends what your algorithm is, but like, I'm getting, I don't need a man. Yeah, I'm getting like woman alone

22:28gardening with like voiceover being like, this is female. We did a whole thing on like, loneliness influence or TikTok. It is real. Oh my God, yeah. So here's the thing. I think I have a lot of empathy for the pessimism, to be honest, not to be like negative Nancy over here, but I also think there's something to be said about shifting preferences and very specifically, women sort of are placed in the world and are status in the world and are degrees and how much money we're making and being more self-sufficient, living alone, all of these changing social norms and cultural realities about women have shifted. And then men, there has not been as much progress in the last couple of decades. And so there is actually, I think, an issue of literally shifting priorities in what the other is looking for. And a lot of women are out here being like,

23:28hey, I want a man who's, I'm offering more, I want a man who's offering more too, and they can't find it. You know, one thing that occurs to me, and I hope this isn't too much of a detour, but growing up in the 90s, there was very much like a moral panic over the black community and partnerships there. It was like, oh my God, women, all of you were gonna be signal. This is a film called Waiting to Exhale. Oh, I remember that. And like, no man wants you, or they are on the DL, because people could do that whole thing. Oh, there was that whole thing. That whole thing. And it really like, as a young person, I heard that, and really felt like, okay, I got to prepare to be alone. This is what the stats say. And there's something interesting about seeing like white upper class kind of, who's who women go through this? Like we played this clip of somebody just like mixing up their shake, being like, I have everything I need, I don't need anyone. And I'm like, oh, this sounds really familiar,

24:30and so does the moral panic around it. Like, are we actually, is this like a content thing more than a real thing? Are we putting too much pressure on the heterosexual relationship? I, okay, I'm glad that you brought this up, because here's the thing. We have been, first forever, we have been told as women, like your goal in life is to find a man, right? Like you are going to be validated by a man, every movie, Disney movie, rom, comments, like your goal in life is to be chosen. And to be single as a woman, or to be child, free as a woman, right? Childless is what we used to say, especially like into your 30s is like super tragic. Even in extremely progressive shows that we still love today, like Sex and the City, right? They're all like, we're 32 and single, like shoot us now. And it's like, I actually think there is something,

25:30a cultural shift happening that I think is good, that it's like, no, being single is actually fine. There are like perks to it. There's something kind of, you know, we're like pendulum swinging, we're like for something kind of like chic and trendy about a single woman. But it's like, my life is full, I am happy, I'm content alone, it is not tragic. And it's not, I haven't been chosen yet. It's like, I'm choosing, I haven't found anyone I like. I think that's very meaningful because I think previously women would be like, it's tragic to be alone, and I just grasp at like the lowest common denominator end up in like a shitty relationship. Because it was a goal that their standards are too high or they want too much or I don't know. If it's not too personal, can I ask you at age 40, do you feel like, oh, single life is great? Or do you feel like, where the hell is my husband? A quote, Ray. You know, I've like started eating someone more recently, you know, I'm still like new stages of that, but I have majority been single for four years.

26:32And I actually did a period, I wrote about this on my summer stack, I did a period of celibacy and no dating for seven months last year into this year. Because I really was feeling burnt out and I was feeling a heteropasamistic. And I was like, I actually want to step back from this. And it's like, I am someone who genuinely does feel really good alone. Like I have a lot of like really close friendships, intimate friendships, close relationships with family. I have my dog, I love solo traveling. So I'm someone who really is looking and I think I'm representative of a large group of women. I'm looking for someone where it's like, you know, I like living alone, I'm not necessarily looking to go to have a date with someone, I'm not necessarily looking to have kids. So I'm just like, who's someone that would be additive to my life who I'd be excited to bring in in the same way that I would assess a friend, except a friend I want to bang, you know? And I have to not find that easy.

27:34The dream. The dream. Yeah. Carly, we have a regular feature on this show called Scroll and Tell, where somebody brings us something that they see in their social media feed that they want us to help break down for or with them. What are you seeing? What have you got? Okay, so, you know, continue with the trend of being angry and pessimistic and being lost in a vortex of your own algorithm. Love it. I get so much content of women crashing out over being on a date and then the men not asking them any questions about themselves for like the whole two hours. So I just woke up with a guy after seven days because he didn't ask me any questions about myself. You got to swap me out for someone else and it wouldn't have changed his experience. And I'm a great time. Okay, like I bring the energy and the fun. So of course I made his experience better. Oh my God. Wait, wait, have you heard this though in real life or is this something the algorithm is serving up to you? Oh my God, I've read about this, I've read about this.

28:34I, this was my primary complaint about dating. Is this gender though? I feel like an obnoxious person is not curious. I do not think it's entirely gendered. I know like there is a lot of women who will rant endlessly about themselves. However, I, I think it is more of a man problem. And here's why I do not think men are socialized as much to ask the kind of questions that women are now used to the conversations they're having with their friends. But I also think they're a little, they're nervous on the each and pitching themselves to you. They're so in their head that like literally they rather than ask me about themselves, they monologue it you for like 90 minutes about like all the things that they think make them impressive or like that would make you like them. And this is like one of the greatest complaints. I not only hear online, but hear from my friends and truly I at first thought that I was just having a really weird experience and I would complain about this

29:36all the time. And I remember years ago, like Googling this and being like are other people talking about this? And I hear experts also now advising men. It's like you have to just like, I got in an argument with a guy once because after our second day, he hadn't asked me anything and he was like, I would love to see you again. And I was like, I literally went why? And he was like, what do you mean? And I was like, well, you don't know anything about me. Like I could be a Nazi. You haven't asked me a single question about myself. Like why, why are you interested in seeing me again? And you realize it's like they just, it's because they want to sleep with you or not. They're actually not interested in your entire life. I'm just applauding you for giving the actual constructive feedback because I feel like too many men who have this fatal flaw, nobody tells them. And so they keep repeating the same pattern again and again. And actually saying to this guy, I'm not going on date three with you because you never asked me a single question about myself. Might help him wake up for the next girl who goes on next woman he goes on dates with. I know well, I had a lot of time to be drinking on that day

30:36because I didn't say anything. So I was just like, then just runk enough to be like, are you crazy? And you're also a bad kisser. No, but it's helpful to ask because for someone like that, I'm pretending I'm him for a second. You're thinking, well, this has come out of nowhere. We've been on two great dates. You know what I mean? Like we've been talking. Like they, in their mind, they have been in a dialogue and not a monologue. And I think that I'm really glad you said something empathetic in a way about nervousness. That like there's another way to fill your nervousness. I know we do it by nature because of our work, which is we ask too many questions. And like I'm practically interviewing people that I've barely known. So it's hard for me to even know what it looks like. But I hear you, like I hear your frustration of like, why? That why is doing a lot of work. Carly, there's a game that we sometimes play on this show. Would you like to play it with us?

31:37It's called Take or Tea. Where? It's kind of like Truth or Dare, but you either give your take on something or you spill the tea about something. There are props. Take or two. Oh, take. I'll do take. Okay. Ghosting is it ever okay? Oh, okay. Depends what you think about ghosting, but I actually do think there are certain situations in which no response is a response. Interesting. Go on. If someone kind of ghost you, and then they reappear a few weeks later and say like, hey, how's it been going? I think you should just never reply. Well, that's reciprocal ghosting. Yeah, that's reciprocal ghosting. I like one guy to me, we had gone on a few dates, like even slept together. And then it was like, we had a plan and he just completely disappeared for weeks. Just like truly faded into the ether. And then like texted me back almost a month later as if he didn't completely ghost me.

32:39And even though he had a plan. We had an explanation. I'm so sorry that I- Yeah, because he had a roster. No, he was like, oh, like listed like all these countries he'd been in, like I was like, why do I care? Like what? Like how does he have that? Unless it was like, I had a tragic loss in the family. I'm so sorry. I'm back. Exactly. No, it wasn't like that. It was just rudeness, yeah, or like a roster, whatever. And then I think at that point, like someone has actually been rude to you. I think that you'd be no longer owe them a response. Like I think- But I think that in general, ghosting is a no. Unless someone is like, again, has really bad boundaries and you know those people that you say, I'm not interested, and then they just like keep messaging you. That's pretty blocked. That's blocked. Okay, take her tea. Tea. Here is a tea question. Would you use an AI matchmaker? No. Okay, take her tea.

33:42I'm a take. Take. Who should pay? I actually, I'm thinking, I've been thinking about this so I want to write about it. I don't really know. I don't think- It's whoever asks. Oh, interesting. Whoever invites the other person. Whoever invites the person, then does the pain. So you think that like, okay, I'm going to excuse me as a hypothetical. If I match with someone on a dating app, I ask, I'm the one that says, would you like to meet up? And then he says, yeah, and I'm like, okay, what about this bar? You think I should pay? In a way, yes. And I always used to think that because I've chosen something that like financially I can handle that a place I want to spend time I'm bringing them into my world. I think here's the issue though. I have been told by Multilimended as a woman if you choose to pay or you want to pay and even to split it on date one, they take that as a sign that you're not interested in them. Whoa. Assign that you're not interested if you offer to pay that seems pretty different.

34:43This is why they still on the apps. Yeah, that it seems like not romantic, but like, or like, you're in your masculine energy and it makes them feel like cucked out, basically. Oh, god, every word in that sentence is why y'all are struggling. Okay. Okay, should we do one final one, take or tea? Yeah, okay. Tea. I'm still reeling from that. Cucked out. Let's say you make it past the first day. Are we going to explain to your parents what the cucked out means? I'm getting anyone out by paying for coffee. And you get married. Would you ever feel comfortable going on a marriage sabbatical? What's that? It's just when you like take a break because everyone needs a little time to go be themselves again. I think that's a great idea. I think that we should just reject whatever traditional conformity, like, for what? It's like if that's gonna be good for your relationship. Whatever looks for you.

35:43Yeah. Yeah. Good to end on. Carly Chor It's so great talking to you. I love it. Thank you for bringing your authority in our show. Follow and subscribe. I'm on the channel. And watch I Want Your Sex. Yes, I had so much fun, guys. Thank you. Thanks. Okay, Carly Chorotino amazing. She'd say again, she's co-writer on a new film that is out now called I Want Your Sex, which actually deals with some of these themes. So please check it out. And also, we love to hear from you. So what's your dating experience like? Or what else are you seeing in your feed? Let us know engagementpartyatcena.com also on all the platforms. You can comment, subscribe, like, share. It really does make a big difference. We raise them. And we love hearing from you. See you next week. Bye. Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford. And I'm John Ross. And we're the hosts of Little Gold Men, Fanady Fares podcast for film, TV and awards lovers. And just because the Oscars are done for now doesn't mean we are.

36:45Join us every week for coverage of the biggest stories in Hollywood, interviews with today's brightest stars and so much more. Listen to Little Gold Men every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.