David Knight of Ole Hickory Pits - Encore

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This is an encore.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the nation with barbecue nation.

I'm JT along with my co-host co-pilot and co-conspirator, Leanne Whippen.

Along with Camaro Dave and Commander Chris, they're lurking about somewhere.

And we're coming to you from the turn it, don't burn its studios here in the Portland, Oregon area.

We'd like to thank the folks at Paynerd Hills Natural Beef Beef, the way nature intended.

You can check them out online at Paynerd Hills Natural Beef dot com.

Well, if you're into competitive barbecue or just high quality barbecue and high quality

barbecue equipment, you probably recognize this name, Old Hickory Pips.

That's OLE.

And we've got the founder here, David Knight with us today.

And what an honor it is to talk to David.

David, welcome to the show.

Well, thank you so much for the invitation.

You know what?

You forgot something.

I didn't hear you say restaurants.

My first woodchicks restaurant I had in Old Hickory Inn.

There you go.

Yeah, I had the big one in Florida too.

So yeah, restaurants too.

Not just competitions, right?

Right.

Right.

That's my error, my bad.

So let's get this out of the way first.

And we'll talk about all kinds of things about Old Hickory.

But what was your inspiration to actually start this?

I mean, you just walked down the street one day and go, man,

I'm going to make some really high-end smokers and grills and stuff.

And that was it.

Or what prompted you?

No, no, that'd be way too simple here.

This actually started when I was in the first grade.

I grew up in a little town of Poplar Bluff in South East Missouri.

And went to Mark Wayne School.

And along the way, I met a friend in first grade

whose family had a barbecue restaurant.

And so it was a regular stopping spot for me

after school to go by the barbecue restaurant.

I was always just mesmerized by the whole process and so forth.

So then many, many years later, decided going into business.

That's the business I decided to go into.

Wow.

Had you had any experience besides on the consumer side of things?

No, not really, but basically just being hanging around the restaurant as a child.

But the boy I met in the first grade became a lifelong friend.

And in fact, he just passed away a few years ago.

But he was not only a friend, but he was also a mentor on barbecue in his whole family.

They were all very nice about sharing ideas and so forth.

Wow.

First grade, huh?

Yes, so that's it.

That's uh, back then we still had the stone tablets, you know?

Look, little chisel action there.

Oh, man, how hard you carry that stuff home and we weren't out.

Well, that's that's kind of an interesting statement to me.

And because, um, and Leanne's been through this,

if you do television shows and at the end of the competition or whatever you're doing,

and they come up and some producers take some mic interface and says,

well, how does it feel or what does it mean to you to win the,

you know, the oven mitt competition in, um,

Bill Fouche or something?

And they, and they want you to say, oh, it didn't mean the world to me.

But I, you're the one actual person I've heard that said,

I started in first grade and I believe you.

So that's, that's a, that's a good thing.

That's good.

And I got some credibility.

You got some credibility.

So were you a success straight out of the gate?

Well, um, I don't mean first grade in the stone tablets.

I mean, well, um, my, my first barbecue restaurant was a success.

And, um, yeah, so right out of the gate, I guess,

I was some good, uh, two leads for my friends and a lot of hard work and so forth.

Um, I opened a restaurant here in Cape Gerardo, Missouri.

And it's right on the Mississippi River.

It's, they call it Port Cape Gerardo.

And, um, it's in a historic building.

It was built back in the 1800s.

And, um, so to put barbecue into it, I had to come up with a method

and there was no technology whatsoever in 1974 when I opened.

Uh, um, so, uh, choice was to build a brick bit or use a barrel.

And this was a beautiful building.

It had three stories high in arch windows and made out of brick.

So it was an easy choice to say, uh, I'll build a brick bit there.

And so it was kind of a, um, I guess, I guess, and by golly kind of thing, uh, designing.

And it had one really dangerous flaw.

Uh, I had to put a damper in the, um, flu.

It was three stories high.

And so when you're cooking a lot of meat and it's going up of 18 inch diameter,

flu three stories high, it can really get out at a handle fast.

And the third time the Cape Gerardo Fire Department came, uh,

the book of restaurant out at dawn, I mean,

that probably should be a better way.

So that started a long journey to, uh, find out better ways of doing it.

Well, but I think that experience, you know, cooking in a brick pit or whatever experience

you had just besides eating barbecue probably helped you build that.

And I don't mean physically, but mentally in your, in your design, in your mind,

I would think right now.

Well, you're lucky.

I mean, to have your first restaurant as a success, that's a tough gig.

Yeah, generally about four to one, uh, on being a successful right out of the shoot.

Yeah, so it's a, a risky business really, uh, to start.

I've had a little bit of experience.

Leanne's had a lot of experience in it and, um, I'll put it this way.

I'm glad I do what I do these days.

And yes, not in the restaurant business anymore.

So when did you get into pit manufacturing then?

No, that was several years later.

It evolved over a few years and, um, a lot of trial and error tried this, tried it.

And eventually started making pits that people liked.

And I grew from there.

Now we had, um, meathead from amazing ribs on last week.

He's a frequent contributor to the show and they have a,

an article on the amazing ribs.com website about not all stainless steel is the same.

How did you go through the trial and error to, to select what product and what grades and

things that you use?

Okay, um, well, we're not getting too far out into the weeds.

Let me explain that there are different gauges and different types of stainless steel.

But for food service, generally, 304 is, um, it's okay.

Now we do use a three 16L stainless steel for the ones that we put on the Carnival cruise line

because they have to be marine grade stainless steel.

So it's, um, a really much more pricey product than the 304 stainless,

that we use on other regular bits for, you know, the non-marine use.

Yeah.

Well, with the, I have a little experience on, on the ocean and, uh, it can, it, it's hard on,

on any product on marine areas, you know, right?

If you get in some of those big ships and you look around and probably scary to see how much

rust and pitting there is sometimes, but that's a good thing.

Did you start out as just building a home product and then, um, you know, expand into more

commercial or competition grades?

No, it was, uh, for the, for the first 30 years, it was all commercial stuff,

you know, basically what I was doing was trying to create for our own business.

And, um, then it just happened that they go from there that other people were having the same

fire problem I was having and went on from there.

I see a couple of hard hats in the back on your filing cabinet there, is that?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, that's, um, well, actually, uh, one of those is, um, for, uh, Casino that I built here in

Cape Gerardo, uh, back then it was the Isle Capri and it's been sold, uh, two, three times

since then, that's owned by Century Casino. Uh, it's just two blocks from the office here,

but, um, anyway, that's the hard hats.

Uh, I get it. I get it.

I only have either cowboy hats or golf hats anymore.

So, and I've never seen Leanne wear a hat.

So I might be in the snow next week.

And I want to, one of those, uh, devagoning type hats in Kansas City.

I'll get her, I'll get her one of those, uh, from Grumpy Old Men, Walter Mathau hats with

the little flaps on the air. I think she would look good on that. Um,

how have your, uh, home units, if it, as it were, David, uh, we got a couple of minutes left

where we got a break here. How have they evolved? And I know that's probably a long story,

but yes, get us started with that. And then we'll pick it up on the next segment too.

All right. Yes. The, uh, um, the small, uh, this, the challenge was

to, to get it in, uh, the configuration that didn't take up so much room.

So, actually, I don't know, I wound up spending many years to do it.

I did it actually at the urging of a friend of mine who just passed away this last year.

Mike Mills, he kept saying, you're going to have to make a backyard model.

The, the, the, all these big bits, there's more backyards than there are restaurants.

And honestly, it took, it took longer to do that than anything. And, um, we got to, uh,

two ways that we do them. Uh, we have small ones that are, uh, like our big bits,

have gas burners that, that fire the wood up to temperature automatically.

Or we have ones that are strictly, uh, charcoal and wood fired and so forth.

Basically the same technology, just in different ways of starting the fire.

Okay. We're going to talk about that. We're going to take a break here on barbecue nation.

We're going to be back with David Knight, the founder of old, that's OLE, Hickory Pits.

And, um, I'm, when you talk about me, I'm OLD on that. So, Leon and I and David will be back

right after this. Stay with us. Ready for a new ride?

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Hey, everybody. It's Jeff here. I want to tell you about something really cool.

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This is an encore welcome back to barbecue nation on the USA Radio Network.

I'm JD, along with our cover girl, the end whip it. That's good. Nice job.

David, if you're really nice, maybe I can get her to autograph the cover of

barbecue news and send you that. Wonderful. Yes, that was really. She was on the cover of

that magazine this month. Yeah. Yeah. This. If you want to email us, just go to

barbecuenationjt.com and you can email us for our Facebook, Twitter and all that. We have

the show accounts and then Leanne and I have separate accounts and so you can find us out there.

So I wanted you to explain the conventure technology to it in an interview. You don't have

to get down to the minutiae, but what does that mean and how did you come up with it?

Okay. The answer to the second question first that it came up the same way we do everything,

trial and error and what worked and so forth and not. So basically what it's all about is

moving the heat and smoke in a way that continually is recycled and that or at least spends as much

time in the curking chamber as possible without being drawn out through the fluids.

And so it's a fine tuning of airflow and motion and that too and of course separating the

fire from the meat so that it doesn't catch on fire. As it go in a and this is just really a question

for me, I guess, but does the from the heat source as it didn't go in a clockwise or a counterclockwise

and is there a fan to push it out or how does that work? All of those are yeses.

It does go in a clockwise or counterclockwise and so just to draw you a picture,

imagine if you will, the fire box underneath the where the meat is, the cooking chamber.

Sure. But it's separated with baffles and insulation so forth so that it doesn't wind up

catching on fire like the old style is used. So then the heat comes up the back of it and then

comes up to a curved top and that helps keep the the pattern of airflow in a manageable sense.

So then it comes up the back across the top and then down inside the curking chamber

in the front by the doors and then fans and then power surge it or boost it if you will

just accelerate it and keep it move in this circular direction.

Okay. So when you were creating this, how many I don't know what you used as a test product whether

it was racks of ribs or a pork butter is just a you know a little piece of meat or whatever.

But how much of how many whatever you use for a test product, how many of those did you kind of

burn up before you guys? Well I'm going to be honest with you and tell you not very many.

Good. Because by that time I knew that we had to have the temperature even temperature

and then as the end can tell you it's all about low and slow. Right.

Barbecue is a slow process and it's not like grilling where the meat's directly over the heat

source and so forth. So it was more just fine tuning the the air flows and so forth but not to

the point where we were burning up meat. What's the difference between your technology and convection

because it sounds like it's kind of the same? Yes. The convection is a generic term meaning that

it is moving air. So the similarity is that mine moves it moves the the heat and the smoke

but it does it in a unique way because it's for barbecue and the fact that we're using live fire

but yet controlling it and making sure that the heat and smoke is evenly distributed inside

the cooking chamber. Well I have a challenge for you. It seems like you're up on technology.

I want to know if you're going to make the first self-cleaning barbecue pit.

Oh yes. Yeah, you can be my first customer.

It was always the challenge at the restaurant was taking the racks out you know and washing them

and you know the way you design your pit it makes it very easy to get the grease out of the bottom

but still self-cleaning would be a nice feature. You're first on my list to call.

Okay. I have a I have a suggestion for you and I've actually said this many times on the show

but I don't think I've said it since you joined. The end was now I don't know how it isn't

floored. I'm assuming it's the same way. I've seen these in Missouri because I've been in Missouri

quite a few times. I take the racks out and I take them down to the self-car wash and hang them on

the mat rack and blow them off there. It works really well. And so for a buck and a half or two bucks

you don't have to clean up the grease in your own patio or backyard or restaurant. Just a little

pro tip there. It is an excellent way to do it if you have access to that. Yeah, it works out

really well. Leanne, what was your experience like in using old hickories? Well, it was my first

restaurant and I remember it vividly. I got a NLE DX which is equivalent to like a Southern

Pride 500 so it wasn't the largest one. It wasn't the smallest but I needed it to be adequate enough

to service the restaurant and what I did was I faced it through the wall so it was actually

outside and I you know I was able to retain the square footage inside the building which worked

out great but as David was saying about you know the smoke and how you vented out I happened to be

in a small mini mall and I had to build a stack outside because every city is different on

their requirements and it had to be built so that it had a fan and it went outside the roof line.

So it was very tall and I thought it was going to affect the heat in the cooker but it didn't.

It actually worked out you know just fine. You know from end to end to the center if you set you

know thermometers across those racks you're going to find that the temperature is consistent and

then it goes in racks that go in a circular motion so it's constantly moving the meat and it's

just it's a miracle. There you go. Well speaking of miracles we're going to take another break

and we'll be right back on barbecue nation with Leon and David at night from old hickory pits

and myself who I'm just here today anyway we'll be right back.

Hey everybody it's JT and I have eaten if you've ever looked at me you know that

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This is an encore welcome back to barbecued nation I JT and we are visiting with David

night from the founder and mastermind behind old hickory pits we'd like to thank the folks at

Painted Hills natural beef beef you can be proud to serve your family and friends and also

Gunter Wilhelm knives great knives great balance and a reasonable price very efficient in the kitchen

that's Gunter Wilhelm knives find out more at GunterWilhelm.com so David how are your barbecue skills?

Well let's see how so I address this I guess so there must be okay I'm in the barbecue hall of fame

and ask me a question or something I know where you want to go it is.

Well let's let's put it this way when you were a kid and you were hanging around a barbecue store

with your buddy from first grade. Yes sir. Did they teach you not just about how good the food was

because I think that's what probably drew you to it was there hanging around there with the food

but did they but did they kind of teach you give you pointers did they say like we make this by

doing x y and z to this rack of ribs or what it was how did that come about. Yes because there are

some eccentricities to fixing and preparing barbecue for example the ribs for example they have

a they need to be dressed you know really try to scrape the the blobs of fat that kind of packs

so are there and then on the inside of the rib cavity that's kind of curved like that the inside

curve there there's a membrane that you have to remove and it's called a peritonium

and you very carefully get a hold of that and you can pull it out just like you're skinning

a rabbit and then throw that away and then trim it up and Boston butts a lot of people like to trim

a little fat off of them before they do it and same thing with brisket and then there's some people

like to leave it on there saying that that's going to get it more flavor so there's a lot of

regional eccentricities that go into it we have brought this up in the last segment when she was

talking about using old hickory bits how easy is it to clean I mean literally I've been in barbecue

stores now these are for much smaller individual patio style units yes I've noticed this very few times

will the if you will the husband ask about how tough is it to clean his wife will ask because

she knows the first time she looks out there and sees a fire on the deck coming out of the

smoker or whatever they buy and she will turn around and ask the husband if she's cleaned it now

I've made a joke out of that but it's actually kind of true though how easy is it to clean

okay there's a lot of hands that you can do and Leanne you kind of mentioned some of them

one of which is as she said using a power washer if you have a commercial

pet a big one and you're cooking hundreds of pounds of meat a day you're going to create some

some grease and and crust on the racks and so your best friend is a power washer and then also

so some people even like to take them out and let them soak overnight and use some degreaser

and let it rest all night long and then it really comes off easily so there's different methods

and so forth but a lot of it is power washing is a big help is there excuse me for my lack of

knowledge but is there an actual grease catch outside the unit hanging down or something or

it's basically a drain and and typically it'll be on one side or the other of the pit and then it has

a often on valve so that when when you're cooking you leave it closed and then when you're ready to

clean the pit you open the valve and drain the grease out into a bucket and then you can start

your cleaning process and then drain the water and soap and I'll let out. There you go it works for

me. Did you do that Leanne or did you have somebody do it for you? Oh no I'm I'm very

at one take that people make is that they let the grease out say at night time and they go they

start the cooker the next day or whatever and they forget to close it so reminder keep the

bucket under there always yeah yeah guilty not on an old hickory but some other ones that I've had

I or another pro tip folks if you've got a smaller unit at home you got to empty the bucket once

in a while too that's true because if you know another thing you should do is get a recycle bin

to recycle your grease so you can put it in the bulk of your restaurant or you know and you just

stop the grease in there and then it gets recycled and you actually get paid a whopping penny or two

I cheat I use it on my burn pile we we can still burn here so I have with all my

shrubs and stuff I usually have a big pile so we're on one side of the property and I go over

there and I'll pour it on there when things are a little damp in the spring you know that helps

them get going I'll just put it that way you can you can fill in the blanks for yourself

were you met with any resistance at all I mean when you came out with these David the commercial

ones I could see were were restaurant tours and stuff were going wow that's really cool

but when you started doing the home version so to speak they're spending I'm sure I didn't look

at the pricing but they're spending but also you know people were used to half barrels and cutting

them and putting racks on them and creating their own smokers and all that kind of stuff did

this did you run into immediate acceptance or a little bit of wow I don't know

well that's interesting that you ask that because I was very fortunate to have a friend

that was in a competition world his name is Doug Files lived down in Tennessee

or Mississippi but at any rate he traveled to competitions serve circuit and he said that

can I yeah that looks pretty snazzy he was up to the factory or busy is it can I trade that out

into competition and I said sure and so he took it he had a trailer and headed off and he called

me up he said hey it works pretty good I won and can I keep it a while and so he gave it that season

and as I say the rest is history yeah yeah I well you know there's nothing quite beat success

yeah it's it it is but and it's been these it's for example if you'll take the big contest like

against city royal and Memphis and May you see them there and the people have had wonderful

luck with them or success over the years with them and there's one model you know

in country music they got to say if you're going to go to Texas you got to have a fiddle in the

band right but if you're going to go to Memphis Tennessee to the big barbecue contest down there

and you're going to be cooking in the whole hog category you better have an old hickory

devil wide how many how many different selections do you have I looked at your website

last night but I didn't go through product by product by product you have you have everything from

I know you've got them from the home version to play the game up to yes big but do you also how

many of those do you have and do you ever custom make them for people we do so we have about six

of the big models basic models no at least have variations in the ones that being like 30 models

or whatever but here but the basic floor plan about six big models and different in size

and then the small ones there is about three and a four four sizes and the small ones

and that they're varying in size and so forth so the the one the the biggest one we make is

called hogzilla it's in fact we I don't know if you've ever seen a hogzilla the end but

it you can park a Volkswagen inside of it and yeah it's big it'll hold a couple thousand pounds

of meat at one load and then the smallest one would be about 40 pounds so anything from

that to that did you find that your sales went up during covid yes man that's good good for you but

I guess you couldn't get them made you could take the order but you couldn't make them because you

couldn't get them well fortunately fortunately being the eternal optimist I am and not knowing

that the pandemic was coming or whatever we we took all that winter before everybody got sick and

everything went thick and that we were just building this as fast as we can and said well it's not

fresh produce it's not going to spoil you know let's see what and so low and behold when

we were under a mandate at one point they actually stopped us from manufacturing for a brief while

but um then um but we were able to reopen because we do a lot of work with um

oh the emergency people that feed people in emergencies and operation operation barbecue relief and

all that yeah that's the one of them we we sponsored that one um that that's when we have to start

about oh 10 years ago that's been quite a phenomenon itself there and you got these wonderful

people that donate their time and energy to come and cook and feed people that don't even know

it's pretty amazing we've fed over 10 million meals wow uh we're going to take a break we're

going to be back with David Knight from Old Hickory Pits and Miss Leanne our own cover girl right

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This is an encore welcome back to barbecuingation on JT along with Leanne Whippen and we're talking

with David Knight today he is the founder creator and head mahu at Old Hickory Pits

must be quite a life David that you you've created this and you've done it and you've been

very successful at it any changes that you in hindsight that you would make? Oh hindsight's

always 2020 so it's kind of a second guess myself but you're right the barbecue world is a fascinating

world to be and Leanne can attest to that as well because there's so many opportunities to travel

to go to barbecue contests go to barbecue restaurants and see what the rest of the world is doing

so it's it's really a wonderful group of people all out there trying to do barbecue at their best

and do you ever go to the competition? Oh yeah I've judged I've gone to contests and all that we

we don't compete but we kind of help provide equipment sometimes to people that need help and

that yeah we go that always go to the medicine may and also the Kansas City Royal

I don't know if you remember this but I was at the Royal competing I don't know long time ago and

we ordered our meat to be delivered to our sites and I ended up getting homeless pork butts and

you came along and I was having a hissy fit I'm like I have to have bone-in pork butts you actually

I don't know if you remember this but you went out and you got me bone-in pork butts and brought

them to my site and that's a logistical nightmare you know I've been the Royal because you know how

widespread I don't know if you remember that but I vividly remember that and you saved the day

and you've got that that's so sweet thank you that uh that's pretty cool

that's a pretty cool pretty cool story uh what do you have on the horizon David

what what are you looking for now are you designing new things? Well the first thing is to get that

that claims itself yeah that's number one no no we uh constant pursuit of new avenues of

getting a better product to the customers all right our theme is to let us help you

barbecue at your best yeah so we got our ears to tune to what people are cooking

highly want to cook it do they want to do it faster slower do they want more smoke less smoke

just really kind of keep you they say if you keep your ear to the ground and your nose to the

grind stone and your best foot forward your odds are you can't even go to work

yeah that's true you gotta keep all those things going at once I was going to say you get a dirty

ear and bloody nose and a club foot doing that you got it but we do we do try to try to constantly

improve and seek out the opportunities for doing some new stuff right right um

um in overall this is a question we asked most of our guests is the progression of the barbecue

especially the competitive barbecue world do you are you happy with it or do you think we should

do something different or just give us your overview real quick okay you mean as far as uh the

rules of date yeah the rules the competitions the uh you know we have we have people on here that

I would say and I think we and would agree with me push the envelope as far as the

the finished product they're pushing out and then you've got other people that have been around

a little longer say man it's it's it's too much we it's like in golf they always want to roll back

the golf ball because the golf current golf balls fly so far and um you know and it's like

that in in most competitions there's always a few naysayers but overall what's your take on

barbecue competition these days I think I think it's it's um it's pretty good shape honestly

we if you look at it um there there's there's the two biggest sanctioning organizations is the

MBN which is Memphis and then the KCBS which is Kansas City and then we also have many many state

organizations that have their own rules and even cities for example in St. Louis St. Louis

barbecue organization so from my perspective I think there's enough diversity of opportunity

you know if you don't like this show go to the other one and um it gives a variety a variety of

items to cook you know you ribs and beef and pork and even some of them do anything but

beef and pork and as a as a kind of an odd extra product yeah so I think I think there's a good

balance in that and I wouldn't come up and think about critical to anything I could say about it

that's refreshing actually well you know the the winners tell jokes and the leaders say

deal damn it deal yeah that that is true David is there anything in barbecue that you have not done

that you want to do yet whoa um honestly not up to the top of my head I mean I'm pretty well

seeing a lot of stuff give me a week or two okay all right do you sell your pits internationally

oh my gosh yes yeah we got them all over the world and um so now that's a fun thing too is to

see your equipment in a foreign country and so I don't get to travel internationally

near as much as my son Alex he does a lot of our international stuff but

anyway we have pits in all the continents and so forth and you know it's interesting in the foreign

countries I liken it to what in the United States let's say 50 years ago where pizza was back

you know pizza at one time was not on every street corner not in the filling stations not

miss that the other and so forth but now it's a mainstay in and so forth barbecue is following

that same kind of evolutionary process to have at one time been that one place in town

kind of off the beaten path to now that's mainstream gets credit in the magazines and and all of the

accolades go to barbecue that it should so we're going to get out of here David's going to stick

around for after hours but we've been talking to David Knight from old hickory pits and

fascinating story with David and like I said he's going to be on the after hour segment

so you'll want to track that down on the web but David thank you for being well thank you so much

for the invitation yeah you're most welcome you too it's been a long time

Leon and I'll be back next week with another edition of barbecue nation and remember our

motto here folks turn it don't burn it take care everybody barbecue nation is produced by

JTSV LLC production for the association with invasion networks and Salem media group all rights

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