Defining the Terms: What’s the Difference Between Sexual Harassment, Abuse, and Assault?

This is Global Trellis, the podcast specifically designed to help international

cross-cultural workers build their skills while also tending their souls. I'm your

host, Bernie Anderson, along with the founder of Global Trellis Amy Young.

Listen every week at Global Trellis.com or subscribe at your favorite

place for podcasts. And now welcome to this week's episode. We're glad you're

here. Amy Young, always great to be together on Global Trellis, the podcast.

Welcome another week and welcome to our guests. Thanks, Bernie. It's always good

to be together. And I am very excited because today my co-authors from the

the research paper we wrote together are here. And everyone now gets to see

what our committee member meetings were like. The fun that we got to have

weekly as we zoom together. So Danny and Stacey, welcome.

Hi. It's good to be here. Good to see you, Amy. Thank you.

Fantastic. Well, I'm actually really looking forward to having this

conversation with all three of you because this particular topic is such an

important one. And we've already had for listeners go back a few weeks. We've

had an episode where we sort of began talking about this paper with Amy Stacey

and myself. Danny, super good to have you on the on the podcast as well today.

And I'm really looking forward to helping our listeners really see how important

and how relevant this information is and why we need to actually be talking

about this. Encourage all the listeners, maybe even before we jump into this

podcast, go to global trellis.com, download the paper, download the the

infographics, the amazing work that that the global trellis team has done to put

all of this together. And if you haven't read it, read it. I really recommend

doing that. It's not like I didn't feel like it took that long. I mean, it,

I mean, depending on how fast you read, right? Like allow an hour, you know,

but come back and then listen to the podcast after you read it. I don't know.

That would be my thought, Amy. That's my, that's my, my encouragement to our

listeners. So

excellent. Well, today, what we're really diving into is

definitions, which even think about this topic, I had flashbacks to eighth grade

when we would have vocabulary words each week. And you'd have to like, is it a

noun? Is it a verb? Is it in a sentence? Regurgitate the definition? It was

my worst nightmare. So for our listeners, that's our like, we're not having a

quiz today. We're having a discussion because there are similarities, but

there are also differences. And it was interesting. And I'm seeing Danny

and Stacy nod as, as we would discuss it too, realizing, Oh, this actually is

assault. What someone is describing. And this actually is abuse. And then

sometimes there is the overlap. We also really wanted to have definitions

because so often it came up, and we mentioned this in our previous podcast,

but the idea of, I don't know if this counts. And so we realized these are such

familiar terms, sexual harassment, sexual abuse, sexual assault. And yet,

if someone said, Hey, I'll give you a dollar if you can define them, you

yourself might stumble over the words. And so we're not, we don't want you to

walk away with a memorized definition, but just with a stronger sense. And I

think a lot of people also might realize, Oh, what happened to me may have

been more, and I'm going to put it in air quotes because everything is serious,

but may have been more serious. Like I was thinking of it as maybe just

harassment. And you begin to realize, Oh, wait, no, I really experienced

assault or abuse. And so just, and that's actually helpful to, for yourself,

I know myself when I've realized, Oh, what I've experienced is legitimate.

And it's not to to poo poo it. Danny, you are our resident expert definition,

like word Smith. And so in the paper, you really do APA, so American Psychological

Association informed definition. So taking it and tweaking it or interpreting

it for our context of cross cultural work.

Yeah, you know, and I think all of us did a really good job there. Amy, I know

I'll thank you for saying that. But I think what if I go back to that first

meeting where we started kind of like parsing through the data and reading

some of the responses and getting a sense for people's lived experiences,

it became very clear that we need to have a starting point.

Especially if we want to produce something that creates conversations that

are actionable, you know, if something comes out of this that we can do something

with, then we've got to, we got to be able to trace where did we start?

And I think I remember that conversation because it was like light bulbs went

off for the three of us. And in particular, for me, it was that one response

that the person said, something to the degree of this English is not my first

language. And so they were already working in a second language, trying to

engage this question that's very personal, explain something that happened

to them. But wasn't quite sure, am I hitting the marker? Does this fit? And so

I believe with any cross cultural worker, when you've got all those layers of

language, of culture, of region, of denomination, of team, it can get messy so

quickly that it's like, where do we even start? If we can't be in agreement,

at least with what to name the experience? I think if we don't start there,

what can end up happening is someone has an experience in what they want to jump to

as blaming. It's this person's fault. You were a skirt that was too short and you did

this and you went on the wrong bus and you should have known or I told you so. And it can get

really a painful instead of being able to put that aside and go like, let's just name

an English, Spanish, Japanese, whatever language, what was the experience? This is a criteria.

And if it fits this criteria, let's name it what it is. And that's where the definitions

came out. Now, if we do a little bit of history, the reason we're using APA, which their

definitions were kind of like put together, I believe it was somewhere in the early 90s,

it comes on the string of history. I think it was like in the 1960s where in the workplace,

women were starting to recognize, hey, I'm being discriminated against because I'm female and

I'm being treated differently. And so it was, I believe it was the Civil Rights Act that started

recognizing, yeah, that's not cool. We should not be treating women different. And in that

difference, the word harassment came out when like, what's the experience in the workplace that's

becoming, they're leading with the sense that I'm not safe sexually. Like something is happening

to me in a sexualized way that I don't feel comfortable with. And so, but all those definitions

that started, they were codified for like a legal system. And very specifically for those

environments, for the workplace, so someone could bring a lawsuit forth and they go somewhere

in the 1980s that the Supreme Court finally cemented it and we call it what it is. But it was the

APA that then began to expand this and not focus as much on the legal piece, but focus more on the

psychological and the relational impact. And with that, it was able to kind of like open it up

and and use those guidelines, definitions, concepts to be able to identify it beyond the workplace.

So like in schools or on a sports team or in a home or in a different environment where

perhaps the legal definition didn't fit, but we still should be able to talk about it. And so

that's why we lean more to the APA to kind of like lean in or center the actual lived experience

and the impact it's having on me psychologically, emotionally and relationally.

That's fantastic. So let me ask you guys this. We have, and this can be anyone can answer this,

but so in the paper, there are three definitions. There's harassment and there's abuse and there's

assault. So let's start with harassment. How do we define harassment? What is harassment?

And for our listeners, how would someone know that, hey, I've experienced this?

That's a great question. So I would say with when it comes to harassment, if we would center

the environment that we're in. So harassment a lot of times is happening in our workplace,

a place that we're showing up all the time. We've got relationships. And I think another really

key word here is unwelcome. So something is happening that is unwelcome in a sexual nature.

So that could be joking. Or someone comes in and or puts on their desk a picture, a pin up of

something that is just, it just crosses a line or it sexualizes the environment or jokes are

happening or kind of like sideways comments. Going back to originally, the definitions, it's

kind of two buckets when when it was defined. I believe it was the equal employment opportunity

commission. They they added that the quid pro quo and then the the bucket of decision making.

So when when you're in a work environment and you have a sense that someone is like, hey,

I'll do this for you if you do that for me in the sexual nature. Absolutely harassment.

Or when someone in a position of authority is like, hey, I'm going to start making decisions

about your advancement, your promotion, your place on this team based upon the sexual nature

of our relationship or what you're willing to give or do or put up with. That's sexual harassment.

And I think a person when they're in a workplace and they have a sense of like, man, this just feels

icky. This just feels off. I just feel like it's the way that person looks me up and down.

The way that person kind of comments or like changes their tone of voice or whatever in a sexualized

way. You can start thinking about it as harassment. Now the the environment there could that also be

harassment in a cultural or cross cultural context as or is that we're talking just workplace or

does it work in if I'm in a or I mean, not me, but if I mean, well, it could be men or women,

I suppose. I mean, men are not the center of this for sure as far as the experience. But

is this something that is outside of the workplace, I guess, is what I'd like to know?

That's great. That's a great question, Bernie. I would say yes. That's why we lean towards the APA

definitions because like, let's just say you've got to go to the grocery store.

And every time you go to the grocery store, it's the same kind of like

interaction with the person that's kind of like giving you your change back in a really

sensual, seductive way or they're just kind of, you know, hey, I'll give you this if you do that.

So it can go beyond that. I would say a piece of it is to keep in mind. These are spaces where I

mean, I can't run from them. I got to go to work. I mean, I've got to get on the bus. I've got

I've got to go to the grocery store. I've got to be in these places and I keep running up against

this situation that I feel is hostile. I feel I feel offended by it. It just does not feel right.

Yeah. Amy or Stacy would just anything to add to that or your thoughts are related to the

definition of harassment. I think Danny's covering it well. The one thing I would add is that

and maybe you may have touched on already, but harassment can be peer-to-peer or have a power

differential. In this sphere, it can be anything on that, on that part. And that's for

often I do think it is a little different cross-culturally than in a work environment, say in North

America or Europe, where you are encountering people outgoing to the market. I remember Rachel

Pigeon's talking about running and just random strangers pinching her breasts or slapping her on

the bottom. And so you don't necessarily know what level of education was that man? Like, so I

don't exactly know the power differential. Other than in that context, he obviously has power if he

feels comfortable reaching out and touching someone. And that also bleeds into other areas we're

going to discuss, too. Exactly. There's actual contact. Right. Well, let's do that. Let's step

into then. So what the next one is abuse? So where what does harassment and abuse like how are

they related to each other and what sort of is the differential then between those two terms?

Yes. That's a great question. So I would say the unwanted continues to be there predominantly,

though it doesn't have to. What's being centered is the relationship. And here there is very much

of power differential. So even if the, let's say, perpetrator is abusing or receiving consent for

something because of that power differential, there really isn't, there really isn't a way to

obtain what we would call consent. So you'll see this a lot of times with, you know, the

mentor and teens or power differential sometimes is age. But a lot of times it's status. A lot of

times it is like a social power or a standing or a position within a team and organization, a

religious order. A lot of times it has to do with exploitation, with manipulation, coercion,

fear tactics. Like I learned a secret of yours and I won't tell anyone, but I need you to do

something for me. Or yeah, it's what's centered here is a relationship, not as much the

environment, but the relationship in our differential that we see there. So that, we say that can be

I mean, that is often unwanted. But even in a situation, I'm thinking of a specific situation

that I had to remove somebody from their position for at one point where there was a American male

and a national employee. He was the boss. She was the employee. And even at that point,

if that's consensual air quotes for our listeners who are not seeing me do air quotes.

That's actually a power differential that's incredibly inappropriate and is abuse then by this

definition. Would that be closer? Yes, definitely in that ballpark. I mean, it can get complex

depending on age and that kind of thing. But yes, that's definitely unethical.

And I guess as you get into it, if there's manipulation, if there's coercion, if there's any

sentence of like, hey, if I don't do this, there's going to be a negative result.

And where we saw this show up in the survey results was someone with within an organization

did share. And it was met with, but he's such a nice guy. Yeah. Okay. No, this, this is not.

It's when, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm stumbling over my words because I don't even know how to

respond to that. Yeah, no, other than no. Yeah, well, there's two dynamics going on here, Amy,

there's the authority. And Bernie, you just described someone in a position of authority.

So for instance, I'm a therapist. And so it's always 100% always unethical for a therapist to have

any kind of sexual relationship or contact with a client ever because there's that there's that

power differential. But in the case of a therapist, there's also trust. So some would be the,

there's the authority. But then for others, it's a trusted person. And this person has my best

interest in mind. And this is just the way that they communicate love. And this is just the way

that they want us to relate to one another. And it can be like, the, um, you like the grooming

process, even it's like a person's like, but I, I guess in the middle of it, it just felt like

that's what we were supposed to do. But there is just a sick. And then afterwards looking back,

it's like, whoa, that I got manipulated into that. There was, you know, someone took advantage

of that relationship of trust to get sexual benefits for themselves. And Danny, would you say this

is how sexual abuse can occur in marriages, for example, where there might not be a traditional

power differential? Would that fall into that with the trust?

I think you could look at it through that lens. Um, yeah, for sure. You look at through the lens

of trust. And then how that trust was, you know, used or, um, how the role it played into

someone getting what they really wanted, um, at the expense of someone else.

Okay. So the, the third definition we're looking for today is assault. So, so, explain to,

to our audience, the, or to our listeners, the difference between assault and, and maybe harassment

and abuse. So if we get kind of blown those up together, yeah. Yeah. So it's important like Amy said

earlier, there's going to be some overlap. But I think the big things to keep in mind. So like,

if harassment, it's, let's just think of environment. Like where the environment is that the bus

isn't going to the grocery stores at my workplace, abuse, it's that relationship where I'm under

authority or I trust someone that's where it's centered. With assault, it's the injury. It's,

it's, it's what someone did. It's very much, uh, there's always no consent, um, always unwelcome.

And there was some kind of physical contact that, um, violated my boundaries of, I mean,

my most basic boundary, which is my skin. Someone touched me inappropriately, attacked me,

groped me, um, on to, you know, obviously more severe things. Sexual assault is a criminal

offense. And, and that's in many different countries. So it's, it's of the three. It's the one

that's like, it's the injury that's really, really acute when it happens. Yeah.

So I guess one of the things that I'd like for us to then do is so as we, as we look at this

in relation to the survey and what, what information came out on the survey, what are some of the

things that you, the three of you learned in light of these definitions and in light of the

real life experience that people in the survey or that responded to the survey shared with

you with us, uh, anonymously, obviously, but, but they still shared something. So what are

just some observations that you guys had as you went through the data and put these definitions

to these experiences? I'm just curious like what, what, what some things, what, what,

what went through your mind? What, what are some of the lessons that you learned and what are

some of the things you'd like to share with our, our listeners about that?

I'll start off by saying all three of these were represented. Um, and, and that really stood out

is that the survey started out being about sexual harassment. And then we realized, oh, we also

need to include assault. And then in reading responses, um, that all of these are there. And I

think what also stood out to me is, this is not as isolated as we would like to think. Because

this often happens, air quotes like under the surface, it's easy to think it's less than it really

is. I don't know, Danny or Stacy, if anything else.

The thing that stood out to me and we talked about a little bit on the last, um, podcast on this topic

is just that it seemed to be a lot of people thought it, what happened to them, what's less

than what really happened over and over and over. And, um, and even in discussions with people

who hadn't participated in the survey in these side discussions in real life, the same thing

is occurring consistently. And that, you know, it, it hurts in the heart to, to hear and realize

that things have been, for whatever reason, made light of, we lessen it for some reason,

um, especially in cross-cultural work. And when we're in ministry, that just shouldn't be the case.

Right. Yeah, what stood out for, for me, was, you know, that graphic on that, like,

can't remember what page it is, Amy, but it shows the prevalence of those that are having some

degree of unwanted sexual attention, touch, um, experience, it was almost half of the respondents

that this is happening with some degree of frequency. So then again, to get to the point, if

you're an organization, a team, a group of people that are there, not just to serve together,

but to support one another, it's important to kind of have some of the definitions. So you know,

like, wait, how are we tending to one another? And where does the focus of our attention for change

or repair or accountability? Where does that need to land? And it's going to be very different

than if we're talking about a work environment and someone having a pin-up that we just have to

have that conversation and, and remind them what our values are and that that's just not something

that we, we tolerate in this space versus someone beginning a conversation. And that's been a

result of assault. Like, you, you, you tend to those very differently in the immediacy of the

moment when you, when you find out the information and, of course, like, like, as an organization,

as a team, as fellow believers, what are we going to do about this and naming it with some degree

of accuracy kind of helps you kind of map out. Okay, like, what are some of our next steps for

organizations that are trying to think through, like, what, what a policy changes look like or how can

we be clear? You know, if, if, if clarity is kindness, how can we be kind to one another by setting

out clearly? What do we do if this than that? And, and I think, because as Amy said, there were

all three of these, it was hard to be able to map out or give some suggestions or recommendations

later, unless we first kind of just like we have two buckets in the discussion, like, these are

three buckets of experience, so to speak, that we had a kind of map out.

And as, as you guys are talking, I think one of the important things that is just jumping out to

me in this conversation, with the numbers being what they are, teams need to, teams on the field

that are working together need to not assume that, oh, we're fine. I mean, nothing, I don't see any

problem here. I don't, we don't experience this in our team. Oh, we may have like some things,

you know, on the bus every once in a while or something like that. But, but I think having the

conversations are really important in it being, and again, this is assuming the team is healthy and

safe and, and, and all of that, right? But I just, this is something that does need to be talked

about as our paper says. Let's talk about it. I mean, it's something that needs to be discussed. A

healthy team needs to ask the questions to the members of the team. Hey, these are the definitions.

Are you experiencing this? Is this something that you are, are, is happening? Because if it is,

then we, we need to, we need to have that conversation. So I say that, assuming teams are healthy,

I guess I would, we may not have time to jump all the way into this. But like, well, how do we

talk about this? I guess maybe is the, the, the bottom line question. How do we talk about this?

What are some of the things that you guys have talked through when, when there is a team that,

or an individual on a team who is experiencing this and may or may not feel safe to, to have that

discussion? Yeah, I, I think it's a brilliant question. I'm going back to how you kind of set it

up. And when you were setting it up, there was a moment that you were kind of describing a team

and kind of going like, well, you know, if it's just kind of happening on the bus, I, I think in this

topic, the knee jerk is sometimes to minimize in the kind of brush it off. So uncomfortable.

Right. You know, you know, just, you know, we're, we're in this country. And that's kind of how

the buses are. And so like, you know, we picked up in a lot of the, the responses, kind of like the,

the get over it quick or, or like, let's just minimize it. I think a lot of respondents were like,

man, I, I wish someone would have given this the importance that it deserves. And so it, to,

to be the end of conversation or the kind of conversation have is one where you can start, where

it's like, this is what we've agreed to. This is, and let's give it the weightiness and importance

that it deserves. And, and enough space to be able to like, hey, yes, we love this country. We're

here to serve this country and you are experiencing sexual harassment. That's what that is. And that's

why these feelings are coming up. So how can it support you in a way that you can continue loving

and serving in this country, but recognizing that what you're going through is this. Let's name it.

And Bernie, when you ask the question, I can feel my heart rate increasing because we're going to go

on a whole, we're going to open a whole can of worms here. So I'll open it real quickly because it's

a big can. Yeah. There's a lot of subtle harassment against women within organizations. Right.

Which is actually what I was getting at. Right. And honestly, like, it might make me cry because

there's a lot justified around, well, I want to be, because a lot of the things I experienced were

by wonderful, wonderful teammates who I love so much. I can remember one time a guy was brought in

to do training. He would only meet with the men on our leadership team. We had a team meeting and

everyone was going around saying how fantastic it was to meet with. I'll just call him Bob. How

incredible it was to meet with Bob and the three women of us sitting at that table. Finally,

it had enough. And we're like, yeah, sounds like it was really great to meet with Bob. But Bob

wouldn't meet with any of us because we are women, even though we are equal women at this table.

Apparently, we are not actually and basically never ever do that to us again. Yeah. I also had

my direct supervisor again, who I love. He must have had some personal conviction,

but he'd never talked about it. And so we're trying to figure out why his behavior changed.

We would repeatedly, for years, many of us all will have a lunch with him, a working lunch.

This, this, this, this. All of a sudden, he will not have lunch with any of the women.

And we were in a small-ish office space and he started only having meetings with women with

the door wide open. So everybody else in the office is hearing the conversations and every man

would have the door closed and get to have a private conversation. And he's, he's our boss. We

should be having conversations with him. People not in one of my finer moments, but I finally had

had enough. And we all know when I've had enough, it is both pretty and not pretty. And you know

I've had enough. You want to have a meeting with me. And I stood in his doorway into the whole

office was like, I am not entering this office ever again until there's a window here. And women

and men are treated the same. I refute. I rap. It was real. I had obviously, I was at like a

breaking point. Sure. Sure. And within a week, there was a window in the door. And so that's

honestly, there were, and I think that actually hurt a lot more for me personally than some of

the stuff in the culture. I understood cross culturally, right. Other cultures are going to have

different roles. But within my own organization of fellow Christians, the subtleness,

it was like termites slowly eating at my soul. Right. Right. Well, and the thing, that's,

I appreciate you sharing that. I mean, because the issue, and this is the issue that I think is

potentially important for our folks on the field, for folks on teams, those things are a part of

the team culture. And culture is like the fish in the water, right. Like we, it's all around us.

And I don't even realize that that's part of the culture. But, but the fact that you spoke up

and that you said, this is not right. And, you know, I mean, I actually think that may have

been one of the most important things that that happened for that team culture to realize that,

oh, I mean, this makes the women on the team feel this way. And because most things are actually

centered around mailness in so many of those circumstances, it's, and that's not right, but it is,

right. So, I mean, I think that those kinds of conversations are what moves things forward

in this and helps us to have a better culture, have a culture where there is actually

quality and where harassment is not something that we just have to accept.

Well, it's funny until this very moment or this conversation, I would not necessarily have

called any of my experiences harassment abuse or assault. And yet, I think that's why it is

important, as Danny has been saying, the ability to name something, then it, you know, then there's

the ability to deal with it. And for my say, my situation, then healing can come in to go, okay,

yeah, Jesus is not happy that that's what happened to me. But by naming it, oh, this actually is

Stacy, to your point, like I might have thought of it as lesser than it was and to go know

those were significant experiences. Yeah. They were. I think the bottom line, if I dare say when we're

starting, how do we address these things? The goal is to build safe spaces that it can be

talked about. Because as a team leader, you can go in and say, okay, today we're going to talk

about sexual harassment, abuse and assault, who wants to share? That's not a safe place.

Who wants to share? It has to be, you know, it has to be treated tenderly. These are

very violating things we're talking about and very hard for people to discuss and some people

don't discuss them or even remember. So fostering safety in the team is the first step

to having the conversations so you can keep moving forward. Because the biggest thing people

said was helpful to them was being listened to and believed. And a lot of times you have to do more

than that. But sometimes and net and always, that is the first step. Listen and believe. Yeah,

if that's great. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Danny. Something that all three of you just said,

that original question of yours, Bernie, about like, how do we go about talking about this?

I think there might be, I don't want to say a tendency, but almost

someone might want to have these kind of conversations, separating genders,

going like, let's have all the women talk about their experience and have all the men talk

about their experience. And if we're able to create those safe environments where everyone gets

to have a moment to talk about their experiences and men get to hear the kind of experience that

women in the same country and the same team have when they get on the bus or go for a run or go

to the grocery store. Yeah, I think it creates a sensitivity. That's important for the team.

For moments, like when it's a little bit more intense, if we're talking about sexual abuse or

assault, but having a whole entire team, everyone knows in this culture, we talk about things

straight up in a safe environment with these definitions. Yeah, yeah. But let's put in one caveat,

there are incidences where sometimes you need to report something or discuss something privately,

and that is okay too. That's right. Oh, absolutely. No, I'm more, I'm talking, thank you for saying

that, Stacy. I was more talking about like that when he was describing culture and where the fish

swimming in the water and it's all around us, I think there might be a little bit different

temperature to that water if you're female than if you're male.

But yes, I think the conversations about training or about like how do we support one another,

just even recognizing it's actually happening, let's not minimize it. I think those are good

conversations for everyone to have together. Wow, exactly. Well, I just thank you all for the work

that you've put into this. I think it's an incredible blessing and benefit for our community,

for the cross-cultural worker community globally, and obviously for our global trellis listeners.

So really, this has been a gift to us, and I just appreciate the work that all of you have put

into that. I would again encourage our listeners to be sure to download if you didn't listen to me

at the beginning of the episode. Listen to me now. Go download the paper, read it, and this is

a great, I mean, I would encourage organizations to just use this as a launch pad to begin having

some of these discussions and building a safe place for your workers, for your teams to begin

to have some of these conversations. So thank you guys for the work that you've done on this.

Just I personally deeply appreciate it. So thanks, Danny, for joining and thanks,

Stacey. Okay, you guys. It's great to hear you. Yeah. All right, Danny and Stacey,

thanks for being on the podcast this week, and Amy Young, I will see you next week.

Thank you for listening to Global Trellis, the podcast. We hope you found this to be informative,

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