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About this Episode
Eli poses a discussion topic for the dads that they somehow have not talked about before. Let's talk about virginity - the pressure to lose yours, to pressure to take it from someone else, and how toxic masculinity and the manosphere intersect with it all. Also, how do kids define "bases" these days?!
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Transcript
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Welcome to Dear Old Danz, the podcast that's just getting it out of the way.
I'm Tom Curry.
I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith, and Eli Bosnick.
Hello, gentlemen.
Hello.
I'm going for you.
I'd like to do is.
Okay.
We're talking about celebrating.
Yeah.
We're talking about June 10th.
What?
Wow.
Wow.
No, we don't celebrate Juneteenth anymore.
That's been removed off the calendar.
I think.
Oh, that's right.
Yeah.
We're not erasing history.
It's been 10,000 years in the last two years.
It's been a little hard to keep up.
It's really a bummer, man.
I find, like, when I'm even like in my day job, my real life, and I'll be talking to somebody
on the phone, I'm like, okay, so I think last week or yesterday or last month, I can't
remember anything anymore.
But anyway, I know this thing happened.
Nobody bats an eye at that anymore because we're all living in the same insane time continuum.
Or just like, you can't keep track of Tuesday from Friday.
The other day, Haley on Friday was like, wait, it's not Monday.
And I'm like, no, it's the end of the week.
It is not the beginning of the week.
Like, it's that bad sometimes because like, I don't know, I'm not sure what it's fucking,
it's always.
I guess that's the less depressing place to go with that.
I was going with it.
I can't believe how many things the fucking regime has taken away in the last minute.
What's the actual part of what adds to it?
Haley interviewer podcast or whatever by the serial lady who's like, I'm going to do
something that's, you know, maybe not talking about a criminal, that's actually a criminal.
And she was talking about this poor woman's case, like civil rights case that was like,
listen to that.
Oh my God.
Dude, what a fucking bummer.
Obviously, a good case as in a meritorious case where the, you know, the fucking, was
it Georgia or something?
The state senate somewhere.
She was working as a legislative aide and she loved the job, all this stuff.
And then she was found out she was getting paid way less than all the white people there
and had like a great case and went through all this hell, which, you know, I can tell
you is hell going through like that legal stuff for years.
And then Trump takes over and they just cancel her case.
There's like, uh, no, for no reason, they just give up her kid that there's no civil rights
division anymore.
They're just give it up.
Yeah.
How are you guys dealing with the worst people in the world winning?
I'm mad a lot about it.
And it's like, do you have your kids ask about and you're like, well, man, Arlo did
one the other day because he talked about like, man, I'm so glad I don't live in the past
because I wouldn't want there to be like a war on me.
And I didn't know.
And then he's like, well, I guess there's wars now on people and I was like, yeah, well,
we have the evil person in charge of our country and he's doing wars on people.
So yeah, it's like, what do you even say?
We're the bad guys and it's the sucks.
It's horrible.
I love the language that he's using because it's kid language and it's accidentally perfectly
grammatically accurate that you're doing war on somebody, right?
Yeah.
Like, no, you're not at all with somebody.
It's like war on the kid in question.
Yeah.
We talked about this a little bit the other day on Cog Disp.
We did an AMA and somebody was asking like, you know, like, how do you guys keep sane
when everything is like crazy and it's depressing?
Oh, we don't.
All that stuff.
And yeah, like my first, I was like, well, fucking reject the premise.
Yeah.
First of all, that's just false.
But like, I do think for me at least I'm a voracious consumer of the news and I don't
find it fills me too much with anxiety mostly because like I recognize it like my locust
of control is small.
It's really small.
Yeah.
And I just have to keep reminding myself like, all right, well, I mean, this is the end
of the day.
This is stuff that either will happen to me or won't happen to me.
I can't control it.
And I just got to get fucking Buddhist about that shit to somebody.
Oh, yeah.
I don't really have anxiety in that way.
I'm just so fucking mad that these idiot fucking people who think reverse white racism
is real are the ones who have now won or in a ruining like black people's lives with
this stuff.
It just, it makes me so mad because it's the worst kind of person and it's the kind of
person like, they're literally the complainer who fucking does nothing but just complains
about other people's shit, which is the most unlike manly thing.
I'm even triggered in my, I guess unhealthy man brain of like you fucking child like all
you're doing is complaining about what other people have and then fucking them over.
Like it's the most childish thing and they're in charge, they're in charge.
She see those dosha depositions.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
Oh, yeah.
Can you define, you know, DEI?
No.
Oh, that was 20 minutes of the guy being like, well, I just used the, um, the definition,
oh, yeah.
No, but like what, what do you think it is?
Like right now, as we're talking, well, I'm not comfortable without the DEF, definite,
no, no, this is a deposition.
I get to ask you what you think it is and they can't even do it.
Unbelievable.
I don't want to answer that question.
I know.
That's why it's a deposition.
Otherwise, I would have just texted you.
Yeah.
It's actually like fun, you know, they're not like, what job would you do if you could
do any job?
Yeah.
Honestly, like to a large degree with the kids, like, I would encourage them to pay less
attention to the news because what are they going to do about it?
You know, I hate, I hate doing that.
I really do because it's antithetical to what I've always believed and like, I don't
know, preached to some degree, but I feel like at some point, it's like, all right,
I mean, you guys have a pretty strong idea about what's right and wrong.
That's been developed.
That's not going to change.
So that work is done.
Now just stop hurting yourself.
Well, let me hit you with this hot take, right?
Because I think the response to that often is like, it's your responsibility to be informed.
But the way 99% of people consume news right now is irresponsible, right?
A million percent.
Your responsibility to be informed is not scrolling through Instagram through your fucking high
school friends worst takes fake news and fucking green circle stories about the war in
Iran.
That's not informing you of anything.
That's inflaming your brain in the worst, most screen-looking ways possible.
So when someone's like, well, you know, I like to know what's going on in the world and
I'm like, oh, cool.
So you read like the New York Times cover to cover every day and the answer of course is
no, right?
And look, I want to be very clear.
I'm not saying that's the only way to be informed of the world.
But if you think the infinite scroll is equivalent to or even close to vetted printed journalism
by the highest standard of journalistic integrity we have, right?
I know we don't like their opinion section because they're a bunch of bigots and I wish
Barry Weiss would get eaten by bears too.
But the fact of the matter is the New York Times is good at journalism.
And if you don't believe that, you should know you are on the other side of the horseshoe
as you're vaccinating uncle, right?
He's worse than you.
But you guys are facing each other and he's like, fuck yeah, Timmy, you damn right, they
don't know shit.
You got dead BFA in drama.
You know what's up?
You fucking, you make that wire jewelry, you got podcasts, they probably don't know.
You know, right?
That's another big part of the like, how do you deal with the terrors of the world is
like, it depends on the terrors of the world that you're talking about, right?
Because the tremendous amount of the so-called terrors of the world at this point are self-inflicted.
There are people who have wildly dangerous unhealthy relationships with social media and
fake news and parasocial relationships and fucking advocacy that they understand nothing
about.
And then they're like, I'm facing the truth and it's like, baby, Comrade, you have not
had a relationship to reality since 2013.
You have not touched the base of grass since Obama was president.
You have been spun by an algorithm into a jibbering loon two degrees away from natural
green mommy.com.
Yeah, I mean, unsurprisingly, like I in our book that sees the one I wrote and then on my
blog, like I have, I have held out, you know, you have to have like an actual methodology
that you can articulate in my opinion for how you will consume news and not just, well,
I do this and I scroll through that and I look at the like, no, if you're going to
be a responsible news consumer, you should be able to articulate your methodology for how
you'll be informed.
That's really, really hard.
That's really, really hard.
And part of that methodology will be how will you actively avoid being misinformed?
And again, really, really hard.
So if you're not going to do that and most people aren't and you're still going to vote
the right way, then you can kind of take yourself out of that circle.
Yeah.
For the kids, right?
So you're already going to do the only thing that you can do that matters as just a regular
person.
What can you do?
You fucking show up every time without fail and you vote.
That's what you do.
That's the most important thing you can do.
So many people don't do it.
So many young people don't do it.
It's insane.
It was one of the things I looked forward to the most when I was turning 18.
It was like, I can't wait to vote.
I've never missed a chance to vote.
It's like, do caucus.
Here I come.
I can't fucking wait.
But like so many people just bail on that.
Like I voted as soon as I could possibly vote.
And like, I don't understand, if you're already doing that and you really don't have any
money, right?
Because you're a young person.
So you don't have any economic control of the world.
You can't do anything meaningful, dollars and sense wise, and just stop hurting yourself.
Just stop.
To add again, social media convinces us that scrolling and posting and liking and commenting
and calling out and all that bullshit, all that meaningless bullshit that infeeds
the algorithm and nothing else is advocacy.
Yep.
Look, you might not be able to stop the war in Iran, but I bet there's a volunteer center
near you.
I bet you can help out at a soup kitchen.
I bet you can do all that kind of stuff.
So a lot of the time when someone says like, oh, I'm powerless, there's nothing I can
do.
It's like, actually, you can do a fucking ton of stuff.
There's still infrastructure for helping people around you all the time right now.
What it won't do is impress the jibbering ghouls on your face, but like, are you fucking
trying to impress your uncle Frank who thinks that Hillary Clinton eats babies?
No.
I never think anyone from my hometown who's like, we might be in Iran, but I ran so far
away from my thoughts that it doesn't matter to me.
Like I don't fucking care what those people think.
And you shouldn't care what the people think who are like, it would be exactly the same.
Nobody was the warm mongering in this but like those people are in psychosis.
You don't owe them or the guy on the subway car who thinks you might be full of Chinese
bugs.
You owe them the same amount of serious conversation about your advocacy.
But because again, like, and this is such a problem for our generation, right?
It's such an interesting thing because I talked to my students and my students are so acutely
aware that the internet is a fake barrel of poison that I'm finished drinking it.
And I stumble into the classroom and I'm like, oh, guys, I feel so sick from drinking
the poison.
And they're like, oh, you shouldn't.
You shouldn't drink that.
I grew up with people trying to fuck us in that bed.
It's true.
It's constant.
No, I know.
I hope it's true that the youngins like are better about this, but the numbers aren't
looking good about stuff.
Bro, I love you.
But like you're at NYU.
I'm at MSU.
What?
I'm on our state.
Oh, yeah.
You're okay.
You're at a university.
I am at a university.
I don't want to be an asshole too much, but like you're not exposed to the most people,
right?
Remember, most people aren't going to college.
Yes.
100%.
So the people that you're exposed to are already sort of a self-selected group of people
that is not representative of the whole.
Well, and I'll add to that because I think if you ask me what we have gotten wrong the
most over the last decade, it is the underlying belief that we share that we liberals share
values with most Americans.
I've said this and I've owned this on the air before.
I thought Kamala was going to crush him because I believed deep down me and my fellow
Americans shared values of goodness, of selflessness, of kindness, and that it was okay to be
tricked.
That a bunch of people got tricked in 2015 and there are problems about that.
There are problems about thinking that needed to be addressed, but now that we had all seen,
now that we had all experienced, right, we saw the win with Joe Biden.
We saw the win in the midterms and now we as a nation, folk are just folk.
We're going to come out as a whole and say, no, of course, we don't want that.
And the answer is absolutely not.
And that's for me to own the way that I think about myself as a consumer of politics.
Changed with this election because I was deeply, deeply wrong about what my fellow Americans
care about.
And if I'm not willing to change with that revelation, then I'm part of the problem.
Yeah.
I actually could not possibly agree more.
I was 100% part of the problem.
Tom, I'm part of the problem.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eli is a part of the problem.
Yeah.
I really thought the same thing, man.
I thought like, okay.
I actually thought I'm very happy that Trump is running again because he's a fucking clown
and everybody knows it now.
And there's no way after the fucking debacle of his presidency and how horrible it was.
And the nightmare that it was, I was like, he's a fucking guy's unelectable.
The emperor has no clothes and everybody can see it.
And then I'm wrong.
I'm wrong.
And so, you know, I have had to completely rethink how I think guys, we did it again.
Our podcast ascended into this exact conversation again.
Fuck.
Reset the sign.
Got to do some different parenting days.
It's last fucking depressed about the thing.
The only thing worse than Trump, then not think, then thinking the country was better
than Trump.
Yes.
It's the auto ads.
You could do the whole thing.
I thought you were doing the whole thing.
You're a job.
You were just jumping me.
Oh, get you.
I was going to give you a shot.
I thought maybe you were stepping up to the plate.
Yeah.
I appreciate that.
Interrupting your listening experience.
By now, you've probably heard seven, eight, nine, hundred of those ads, but you can make
them go away over at patreon.com forward slash deer old dance where you get a commercial
free version of every single show plus a little parenting story at the end this month for
the bonus.
We did an AMA with Aislin and Donovan, Tom Stepkins.
It was a ton of fun.
It was fun to connect with those kids.
It was fun to hear about Tom from their perspective.
It was just really, really sweet and lovely.
I ran all my new, new speak past them.
It turns out I am, in fact, I am.
So for those of you who are coming to me for the cutting edge of culture, I might, might
not exactly be there, but you can find all of it over at patreon.com forward slash deer
old dads, like the Trump presidency into our political consciousness, rip into it.
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All right, so we don't have an email or anything.
We have an actual honest to God, genuine American patriotic topic to talk about today.
Eli, you wanted to talk about the weirdness and the pressure and the specific intersection
between masculinity and men and the pressure of like losing virginity.
So losing virginity and start us off, buddy.
Yeah, so I was thinking about this the other day.
I was thinking about the topics that we haven't covered because we've been dead for a while now,
and we've traipsed a lot of ground.
As Thomas pointed out earlier in the episode, we do occasionally just devolve into how horrible
social media and the government is.
That's one of our go-to's, but like what haven't we talked about?
And I thought about it and one of the things that came up where I think toxic masculinity
definitely affected me and I'm interested to hear if it affected you as well was the toxic
expectations around losing your virginity, taking virginity and how much virginity mattered.
And also I would want to throw in there like the weird way that men will prize virginity
as like something in a partner.
I took her virginity or she's a virgin or like virgins are more, you know, desirable.
Like that's a weirdly male to female directionality issue.
I've literally never heard a woman ever like think about that at all.
I mean, even bring it up, think about it, but like the manosphere is fucking obsessed with that.
Like anything is those memes that reverse it or like the male penis after having sex like
several times, you know, like does the reverse of, you know, men saying that vaginas,
the penis gets ruined after a few times.
It's totally just stretched out and awful or not stretched out with that, but I don't know.
I'm not sure how it does it, but it's funny.
Look at like it's squeeze thinner.
Eli, I guess what was your experience like in terms of like, did you feel?
Have you lost pressure?
I'm so excited.
I'm waiting for it.
Anisex.
Because I had a different experience around it.
So I'm curious like what was your experience then?
Like did you feel a lot of pressure to lose your virginity?
Yeah.
So I think I had what is a pretty typical virginity losing experience.
Me and my high school girlfriend planned to have sex.
Then we had sex.
We were bad at sex for almost 100% of the time that we had sex, but we kind of learned sex
together and through exploring sex.
And I, of course, having good parents talked to them about all of it, right?
So my parents knew when I lost my virginity, they knew that I was planning to lose my virginity.
They sort of, I don't want to say they enabled it, but they kind of looked to the other way.
They were like, well, we're not home on these days.
If that was the day when you wanted to come to that, because they didn't want us to do it in a
place that was unsafe for where we could get trouble.
Because you can get in really serious trouble for having sex random places,
which I know a lot of young people who did who were like, oh, my God, I've been caught.
And they were like, no, you have like a parole officer.
Yeah, the amount of fucking places that me and my high school girlfriend had sex in the car
is just so good.
Exactly.
God is so dumb.
And the interesting thing, I know we've talked about this on the show,
but the thing about having sex in public is enjoyable for certain folks.
Some people are fans, but you can never guarantee that all the parties involved are consenting
because of the public nature of it.
And you also can't guarantee that all the parties are adults,
which as an adult now, with a child, matters a lot to me.
I'll get you with my car.
Like, oh, you were trying to get away.
Well, now I've plowed into the side of your car and crushed you against this dumpster.
And they'll have to actually place that anyone would see us really.
Right.
But like, you never know is the thing.
Someone's checking cars door to door.
Well, that's what I do.
I was going on my name when I got on doors to see if the doors are fucking in there.
They call me the fucking in there, man, because of my big bell and my hat that says
fucking in their question.
And if you'd like to buy a fucking in their hat, head on over to drolldance.com.
It's $100.
But we fucked it up.
I won't tell you which cast member fucked in it.
But it was Thomas.
No, so like, I had what I think is a very healthy experience around it.
And still the pressure was insane.
I didn't have a particularly good time the first time I had sex
because there was so much pressure on it.
And it didn't know what to do.
And talking about my partner's pleasure as a high school boy in upstate New York,
like, that's, that's gay.
That's super gay.
We're not going to talk about you getting trying to please a woman during sex.
Gay, will and grace.
Yeah, so there was a lot of that.
But yeah, I just, you know, it was, it was a, it was a weird experience.
And then I also think it just set me up for a bunch of the
not cash money experiences that would have later in life where people would be like,
I'll have sex with you.
And I was like, well, I've said yes.
And they were like, I'm going to pop you over the head with this
Hulk hand.
And I was like, oh, that's not my favorite thing.
But we both said yes.
So there's literally no other thing that happens
up in that weird access to my body entirely.
So yeah, fucking go Hulk smash.
Did your dad at all talk about like sex and losing
virginity?
Was that like something he talked about with?
Have I told you guys that I'm going to punch you in the face there?
Oh, I don't remember.
Oh, this is, this is so look.
I talk a lot about what a great man my dad was.
And my dad was a great man in a lot of ways.
But they were at all home runs.
And so, and this is an example of in retrospect
where my father could have done better.
So sixth grade, I have my first girlfriend who I'm doing stuff with, right?
And he's like, hey, um, so like, are you in your girlfriend, you know,
doing anything neck and whatever?
And I was like, oh, dad, I don't want to talk about that.
And he was like, oh, okay, tell me or I'll punch you in the face.
And I was like, dad, no, just private.
It's my private between me and scoop graphene.
And he was like, cool, cool.
I'm going to ask you maybe one more time.
And then I'm going to punch you in the face as hard as I can.
Which is very hard.
So it's the minute your entire skull.
And I was like, so second base.
But apparently second base was different for me.
Second base was boobs.
So I was like, yeah, second base weird.
Like second babes not boots.
Yeah, second base is one of the bases.
Kids have a new base.
We need an international con.
Wait a minute.
To agree on the bases.
This is nuts.
Let me look this up.
No, that is, that's impossible.
There's not a new second base.
I got another question for you.
We have so many non-American listeners.
What do non-baseball playing cultures use for this?
Because like the base system, I'm not even a baseball fan.
I know you guys aren't sportsmen.
It's, I absolutely a great system.
You know, the base system for kids.
It's so dumb, but it's perfect.
It's like, well, first base second base.
What do the other cultures use?
Soccer, first soccer goal.
Seconds, no, I don't know.
What do they use?
Yeah, it's nuts.
Okay, yeah, listen to this.
Listen to this.
This is according to Reddit.
First base kissing.
Thank God.
Okay, yeah, we probably have to be.
Second base, heavy petting, touching over clothes.
Okay.
Third base, touching under clothes.
Hand jobs and oral sex.
No, that's too quick of a, that's too fast.
Such a fucking utter.
That, I'm imagining in my mind the third base
being like a mile away from second base.
Yes, exactly.
Makes a weird game.
Yeah, it's like cricket.
And then first, wicked is the creative sex.
But yeah, the kids have fucking ruined the basis.
Because for the record, for the youngins listening.
First of all, thank you for listening to our
Skimady Ohio podcast.
And so you're tuning into it on your glasses?
Were you listening to shit?
What'd you do?
Anyways, on your zoom, it's cool.
But for us old people, first base was French kissing.
Kissing with tongue.
Oh, that was of course regular kissing.
That doesn't count.
That's a bun.
You're not even, that's a bun.
You're a lot of stuff.
Nice.
Second base was touching boobs under the clothes.
You couldn't touch boobs over the clothes.
Third base was fingering and hand stuff.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
And then fourth base was sex and oral sex.
Like there was a sloppy system.
Yeah, you missed out on some bait.
I feel like.
So a couple of things are interesting about that.
It's like the base system that we grew up with.
And you compare that to what you just read.
Like the base system that we grew up with was all about
like guys doing stuff to girls, right?
Second base is touching boobs.
Third base is touching her crotch, right?
Like it is the dude doing something to her.
That's how I grew up too.
That is the base system.
But like what you just read back was
here are the things we're doing together.
Like the first thing that you read,
the thing that like the kids have now,
like heavy petting, heavy petting is both ways, right?
Like oral sex, oral sex can be both ways.
That is actually a system that like suggests a mutualness
rather than a hard male to female directionality
that I think is actually more interesting
and like more progressive because our system
was very, very patriarchal.
Yeah.
I have a new theory that we've never had a coherent base
system and no two people have ever agreed on what the bases are.
That's my new theory.
I don't think we've ever had an idea what was in everyone's mind
when we talked about the base system
because it actually just doesn't work.
Like anyway, I'm realizing now any way you guys describe it.
It's like, well, that skips a whole lot.
You need more.
Yeah, not everything.
A lot of it just lead off in between.
Yeah, you know, I think the problem may be,
and Thomas, I don't want to jump all over you.
I think the problem may be thinking of sex
as an achievement that you run around.
You don't run around during sex.
Perhaps the non-constantial score keeping metaphor
is not the best one for sex.
It's not like the guys standing around the bases
are psyched for you to do it.
I'll tell you what, like, it's funny
because the other day the boys were watching
some older people who have sex.
No, they're watching, they watched 40-year-old
virgin and stepbrothers.
I thought it was going to be fun.
But 40-year-old virgin only works
if the guy's a virgin.
That movie doesn't make sense as a comedy.
There's no tension to it.
It works when the guy's a virgin
because it is socially really undesirable
for a guy to maintain his virginity.
I was a virgin longer than any of my friends.
I was a virgin until college.
And like, none of my friends were still virgins.
That was not something that was cool.
That was not something you wanted other people to know.
Wait a minute, and you sold the cables.
Were you the 40-year-old virgin?
Oh my God, that's true.
There's a lot of pressure as a guy to not be a virgin
because it's like kind of shameful to be a virgin.
It's after a certain point, you know,
like none of the other friends are.
Everyone's talking about stuff.
It is looked at, like, as an achievement
as you sort of, like, round those bases.
And it creates, like, a weird pressure
to constantly be testing the water
to see if you can advance
with the person that you're with
because, like, these outside social pressures
are kind of, like, breathing in your ear
that you don't want to be the 19-year-old virgin, right?
You don't want to be the guy going to college
that's never had sex with anybody
because everybody else has already done it.
And I know that pressure from having lived it.
And, like, people do tease you about it.
Like, people do make fun of you if they feel like it is a real thing.
And if the way to avoid that, like, social stigmatism
is to, like, make sure that you're trying
to advance the ball, so to speak.
And the way to do that is to pressure people.
It's a really toxic problem, right?
Because then people are feeling pressure to do shit
they don't want to do.
It's bad.
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For younger people who might not be experienced this first of all, congratulations, awesome
for you.
But like the pressure to pressure was tantamount, right?
It was always, you got to be asking, you got to get in there, right?
It was that scene from Greece was like, eh, tell me more, tell me, that was how society
was lit.
Anyone younger, listen, Greece, actual documentary of our school times.
Out of the way we were taught to think about it.
Now to be clear, we were one generation away from, sometimes you just raped somebody.
I don't know what to tell you.
You just got to rape people if they don't want to have sex with you.
But we were don't rape, but that should be the only thing you think about and talk about.
And if she's not interested in having sex with you, then something's wrong with the relationship
and you should ask her what's wrong and you should fix it so that she wants to have sex
with you.
All the movies where someone didn't want to have sex, it was just that their partner
had not done a thing yet.
And then the reward that they got was always sex.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For sure, there's a huge amount of that shit in media.
Like, I actually broke up with my first girlfriend that I had because she was way more sexually
aggressive.
She was older than I was.
I was like, it's a summer after my senior year, I had not dated anybody before.
She was 21 and a few weeks into dating, she wanted to have sex.
And I was like, I don't want to have sex with this woman.
I was like, it's too fast.
I wasn't particularly enamored of her.
And I was just like, I just felt too much pressure and I was like, I don't want to do
this.
Like, I don't want to have sex with this lady.
And she thought I was fucking crazy because I'm a fucking 18 year old boy.
And the idea is like every 18 year old boy just always wants to have sex.
And the idea that that's not true or that you might not want to have sex with somebody
under these circumstances or with the wrong somebody or whatever, honestly, like that's
part of what also feeds back to that narrative of like why female sex predators get away
with it.
Like writing shit like, I wish my teacher had fucked me when I was 13 fucking every
one of those articles.
Yeah.
There's some guy in a trucker hat being like, don't see the problem.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because like all of that stuff kind of plays into the same sort of toxic melange and
becomes like a whole thing.
And I remember like when I pushed back on this girl and was like, I just, I don't think
I really want to, we were doing stuff like we were fooling around.
We'd been dating like five or six weeks.
I don't know.
A handful of weeks and I was like, I just, I don't want to have sex with you yet.
And she was like weird and kind of offended by it.
Like it was like, like a deep rejection.
I think she had no idea like how to process that in a way that was like kind or like decent.
And I was like, well, we got to obviously never see each other again.
And I'll forget your name.
So, but yeah, it was, it was fucking crazy.
It was yeah, I went all through high school and then the summer after and then like
into my first semester of college without having had sex with anybody.
And that was very, very, very unusual for a guy.
That was very unusual.
I knew other, I knew girls that were virgins.
Either other guys were and weren't saying it, right?
Or weren't, you know, honest about it.
And that's possibility for sure too.
Because again, there's a lot of pressure to not be.
Oh, yeah.
100%.
Yeah.
I would say I benefited from having friends that were only either girls or nerds.
I didn't, I didn't really have this in high school much.
Seventh eighth grade were like the worst years of my life and that sucked.
But also there was no realistic chance anyone was really having sex at that age at my school.
Beyond like maybe one weirdo or something.
I don't know.
Right.
So that wasn't really, it was, it was.
And I was just pinned by himself.
Yeah.
So I didn't even count.
And it was back then I was like, you're pretty sure they were lying.
You know, it was like somebody you didn't know with, yeah, there's a girl that you don't
know.
There's like somebody's fucking cousin or something.
Let's girls up in Niagara Falls.
I'll tell you what guys.
Guys, they got Canadians.
But in high school, since I, my friends were all nerds and I guess I mean, not that nerds
are like always non toxic by any means, but I guess it was a group of pretty like non toxic
nerds.
It wasn't like, we just didn't really talk in that way.
Like we were genuinely just nerds like we talk about fucking nerd stuff.
So I'm thinking back, I didn't have any like particular pressure either way, which
was nice.
That's awesome.
I didn't have pressure from my friends.
I will say like my friends, I didn't have any pressure from.
I didn't have a lot of friends though in high school.
So it was pretty easy like I really had like one friend in high school and then another
literally one other friend in high school.
So I was very isolated in high school.
But I felt like there was a lot of just broader cultural social pressure that absolutely
like informed that conversation about like what you're supposed to do and when you're
supposed to do it, the sort of like manliness quotient of the whole event, right?
Like and for sure, there was a sort of background radiation of all of that, at least in the
90s when I grew up, that was pretty significant for boys growing up in the 90s.
Like it was like, that shit was fucking for real.
And again, I think it's reflected in the media like I think back to that 40 year old virgin,
like, why is that funny?
Like it's ridiculous because like it's at a certain point like not having lost your
virginity.
Now 40 is an outsized example, but like not having lost your virginity literally makes
him less of a man than the other people around him.
Because like his identity as a guy is absolutely tied to his success with women.
And like the manosphere capitalize, the current manosphere absolutely capitalizes on those
insecurities.
So like that is like an experience I had in the 90s and I think like if you buy into
these idiots who are selling insecurity for profit online, they are selling that same
shit.
They've just packaged it differently.
It's more bespoke rather than sort of like network, but it is absolutely still that
message for sure.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, look, it's just capitalism applied to that toxic idea, right?
It's just people who said, Hey, here's this toxic culture around sexual pressure on young
man and making them feel less than and making these insane demands of them and their partners,
all of what you're bad.
I can sell this as a solution that I offer because all of them, all the manosphere guys are offering
right is I can get you out of the system.
I can get you laid.
I can get you the adoration of women right, whatever the case might be.
It's always just pretending that they have the solution.
Yeah.
And I think too that those messages too, they absolutely in my experience, they absolutely
influenced the way that women interact with men around sex too because like my experience
had been that women will expect you to advance the situation.
That is an expectation because that's what they've been told them and told this is what
boys want.
This is what guys want.
It's the only thing guys want.
They will advance.
They'll move from, you know, first base, the second to third to, you know, and like
if you don't want to advance, at least in my experience, they've been inculterated to
think that like, okay, there must be something wrong with me, right?
And that same isn't hold true in the reverse, right?
Like if a, if a woman's like, yeah, I just don't feel like I want to, you know, have sex
with you.
Yeah.
Like that's perfectly cool.
No other words should need to be spoken, right?
But if a guy is like, yeah, I just like the whole reason is I just, I'm not feeling
in the moment.
That is insane.
And like I think a lot of women don't understand how to manage that rejection because it's not
something that they've been taught literally is real.
We have taught women that it is not real that guys don't always want to have sex all the
time with every available opportunity to have sex.
100%.
Everybody loses in that exchange.
Like everybody loses so bad in that exchange.
Wait, but I'm always 100% on it.
That's true.
Yeah.
Thomas, we lost Thomas.
Thomas is like, there's no, what, there's no possibility not to, but I mean for the love
of the game, you know, say what you want about me and there's many things you could say
about me.
I'm not doing much for other people to impress other people.
You know, I'm not trying to like be anything for other people.
I was just saying for the love of the game, you know, just form, form a healthy relationship
with wanting to have sex because sex is great.
My perfect day as sand saltwater and friends, but my moderate to severe plaques rises can
take me out of the moment.
Now I'm all in with clearer skin thanks to SkyRizzy, risen chism at Risa, a prescription
only 150 milligram injection for adults who are candidates for systemic or phototherapy.
With SkyRizzy, most people saw a 90% clearer skin and many were even 100% plaque free at
four months.
SkyRizzy is just four doses a year after two starter doses.
Use of allergic to SkyRizzy, serious allergic reactions, increased infections or lower ability
to fight that may occur.
Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis.
Tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms or vaccines.
Thanks to SkyRizzy, there's nothing on my skin and that means everything.
Ask your doctor about SkyRizzy, the number one dermatologist prescribed by logic in
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It really like makes it impossible, I think, this sort of like series of expectations makes
it impossible for a lot of guys to decide when they want what they want because what they're
supposed to do is respond instead to a set of cultural expectations around when they become
men.
Of course, yeah.
You know what I actually, I'm not sure what I want and how to do.
And so then I think if you start off your sexual journey that way, I fucking hate that word
journey so much.
I can't believe I said that.
But I think if you start off your sexual life that way, sort of already just being
like, well, what I do is I'm the assertive one.
I'm the one who advances the ball.
That is what's expected from me.
I should not.
There's never going to be a time I don't want to have sex like these are all the things
that I'm told about me and my sexuality.
So if any of those things ever aren't true, then it's like, fucking what's wrong with
me?
I must be some kind of weirdo.
You know, I must not be manly or I must have something wrong with my libido or whatever.
It's like, no, maybe you just aren't feeling it.
Well, and talk about the capitalist solutions, right?
If you ever see any ads for testosterone supplementation, that's all it is at this
point, right?
It's like, have you ever not wanted to have sex?
Are you not Thomas Smith with a, let's put a salt liquor testosterone into your thigh
and see the blood of my head?
Yeah, it's fucked up.
First off, my thought as we're talking about, as we're doing this is like, is there any
way to try to instill in your kids care about what other people think less like any way
to do that?
Because I'm realizing like I do think it's a asset of mine in many ways, not in all ways,
can be a liability.
But you know, there's just so many of these peer pressure.
I don't know where that came from.
I think because my dad was just so unaffected by anybody's thoughts about anything that
I just, I guess like kind of adopted that.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I mean, self-confidence is definitely good, right?
Trusting that.
Showing that you...
It was that.
No.
Thomas, like, no, reject the premise.
There is a positive way to do it.
Yeah.
A positive way is to say that you believe in them and to trust their decisions and to
enable them, right?
To act like you think they have good ideas.
I was talking to a friend the other day about the fact that I hate everything that
Max watches on YouTube because he watches just, because we do YouTube kids, but it's
just the dumbest fucking boxy, the dog and who took the snoot, go in there and he just
got into watching Minecraft streamers and they're just screaming, they're just screaming
all the time.
I hate that.
That's just so much, man.
I hate it.
And they were like, I'll just, just turn it off, just telling me, can't watch that.
And I was like, no, because the, the message, what you value isn't important to me.
Like the things that you value I don't care about and they aren't worthy of your
attention.
That's a worse message than, however much I'm not enjoying the screaming minecrafters
who yell at each new kind of TNT, thank you, oh man, are you sure?
I know.
I believe me.
I know.
I'll say with like both of the older boys, I have told them both explicitly, now I don't
know if this fucking helps.
Right?
I love you.
You're swimming.
You're swimming so hard upstream against more important cultural messages.
The messages from their peers are stronger than the messages from their parents very often,
especially for teenagers.
The messages from like the media that they swim in that they consume without, you know,
knowledge that they're consuming those messages, those are very powerful too.
But I have told both of the kids explicitly, hey, just so you know, like you get to decide
too that you do or don't want to do something.
I know that there's like pressure as a guy to be the one who advances the ball.
Like you don't have to do that if you don't want to.
At any point, you get to be like, yeah, I'm just not in the mood.
That's fine for you to 100% again, like that's not a message I ever received.
In part, because my dad and I literally never talked about sex one time ever or relationships
or anything like that, not literally one time ever.
I don't think they've spoken.
Once I got to a certain age, I think my dad was like, well, I'm going to respect his
privacy and never talk to him about anything he doesn't bring up and like,
who brings that shit up as a teenager who's like, hey, I got some quiet.
I mean, Eli would like, yeah, punch me in the face or you threaten to punch me.
I just said, yeah, so I didn't get punched.
That sounds great, but it worked pretty awesome.
So I mean, Eli is very well adapted.
Yeah.
I'm pretty cash when he did very much respect the autonomy of his children.
I do.
Yeah, I think that other people's privacy is really important.
I'm a big privacy advocate.
All right, gentlemen, before we go, somebody threw a beer at Donald Trump today.
We don't worry.
It was a draft, so he dodged it.
Oh, I like that.
That's good.
Perfect with this episode too.
Want to meet sexy delves in your area?
Email the dads at droldads.com, or better yet, send us a message on Patreon.
You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes.
And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on cognitive dissonance.
Tom is on series Anchorage Only and Eli on God Awful Movies and all the puzzling
of thunderstorm shows.
Drill Dads is edited and produced by my favorite Dill, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded
the intro music, which is used with his permission.
This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC Copyright 2022 All Rights Reserved.
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