DOE ID Gary Herbst

0:00You're listening to DNAID. Brought to you by Abject Entertainment, be sure to check out some of the other great true crime podcasts from this network, including The Murder in My Family, Missing Persons, Scene of the Crime, Zodiac Speaking, Beyond Bizarre True Crime, Campus Killings, Below the Surface, and Killer Communications. All of these podcasts are available for you to binge on right now wherever you listen to podcasts. Subscribe where you're listening to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. According to a criminal complaint, quote,

1:28on December 3, 2017, at approximately 1230 pm, the Barron County Wisconsin Sheriff's Office received a call from someone with initials APC, stating that he had found a human skull in the driveway of his residence, located in the 1300 block of 10th Avenue, between Barron and Hillsdale in the township of Maple Grove, Barron County, Wisconsin, which is in rural Wisconsin. At the scene, deputies spoke with APC, who showed the officer a skull he had found. The deputies believed the skull was human and appeared to have a bullet hole in the top of the skull. APC reported that his dog had apparently recovered the skull somewhere in the area and brought at home and was chewing on it when he recovered it. He put the skull in a bag inside a box and called the sheriff. APC told the deputies that the dog generally did not leave the property, end quote. Well, that's not your average Sunday morning 9-1-1 call. Barron County deputies drove to the property where APC and his dog lived on a 15-acre wooded parcel. APC showed them the skull and showered off it was human.

2:32Since the dog generally stayed within the property boundaries, the deputies knew the canine must have found the skull on that specific parcel. Six deputies found out and searched the area. East of APC's residence, they found more bones. This was about 66 feet from the center of 10th Avenue, near a field abutting a wooded area. Again from the complaint, quote, the remains appeared to be part of human ribs, a backbone, legs and other bones, some clothing, and a full set of dentures. There was a depression in the soil and amount of dirt to the north side of the bones. The remains were devoid of flesh and only skeletal, end quote. Barron County Sheriff Christus Gerald and the Barron County Medical Examiner responded to APC's property and called in criminalists from the state crime lab and the Wisconsin State Patrol. Additional remains were found in the same area the next day, along with some scraps of clothing, including a tag for Wrangler Bran Jeans size 33 by 32.

3:32When the searches were completed and the scene photographed, documented, surveyed and mapped, all the remains and other pieces of evidence were removed to the Barron County Medical Examiner's office. Barron County Sheriff Christus Gerald issued a press release on Monday, December 4, stating, quote, a search of a wooded area near the house was conducted and the skeletal remains of a body were discovered. He mentioned all the agencies involved. Quote all are assisting with the case to determine more information if it is a male or female, how long it has been there, and any other way to determine the identification of the remains, Christus Gerald said. On December 13, the remains were transported to the Midwest Medical Examiner's office in Ramsey, Minnesota, a full service medical examiner that performs death investigations for small, surrounding counties on an as-needed basis, including Barron County Wisconsin. There, the remains were examined by Dr. Rebecca Ash Kendrick MD. The pathologist concluded that the bones belonged to a white male of likely European origin.

4:34He could not determine his age, establishing it as between 30 and 65, but placed his height at around 70 inches give or take 4 inches. Dr. Kendrick observed what appeared to be a close-range gunshot wound a quarter way down the back of the decisions head. She concluded the cause of death of this John Doe was a gunshot wound to the head and documented that the trajectory indicated the bullet, had traveled from the decisions left to right, front to back, and downwards. No gun was found and the gunshot wound was in an unlikely location to be self-inflicted. This was a homicide in which the victim had been killed anywhere between one and 10 years earlier. Barron County Homicide Detective Jeff Nelson was the lead County Sheriff's Office Detective on the case. He responded to the scene with the original responding officers, saw the skull, and observed the remainder of the bones in place where they were found. Barron County authorities checked records of all missing persons cases in the area, including neighboring counties for the past five years, and didn't come up with anyone that matched

5:36the description of their John Doe. But since it was by now 2018, DNA was the go-to tool for human identification. On January 11, 2018, John Doe's remains were sent to the University of North Texas Center for Human Identification, Forensic Anthropology Unit in Fort Worth, which had a DOJ grant to help with identification of human remains. In March, an STR DNA profile was extracted and entered into the CODIS unidentified human remains database, but no matching DNA profiles were located. John Doe was also entered into NEMIS as UP17363. By this point, in the fall of 2018, Detective Nelson turned his attention away from the John Doe case for a time because his life was consumed by the Jamie Clause case on which he was the lead detective. In the course of working on that case, he was in contact with Steve Kramer, an FBI attorney who along with Paul Holes had helped solve the Golden State Killer Case by pioneering an investigative genetic genealogy investigation.

6:38The concept of using IgG in the John Doe case was born. But first, they needed a SNIP, which meant a pricey DNA extraction and sequencing. Detective Nelson received approval for the expenditure from his agency and on March 21, 2019, Baron County authorities sent bone samples to DNA solutions in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma for DNA extraction and preparation for creation of a SNIP profile to facilitate IgG. Once the DNA extraction was complete, the extracts were sent to Hudson Alpha Discovery Life Sciences for sequencing and then on to Dr. Gregory Magoon, contracting through full genomes corporation for bioinformatics. Global agent Joe Welsh of the Wisconsin Department of Justice had contacted the DNA Doe project in January 2019 to line up the nonprofit organization for IgG analysis once the SNIP was ready. So after the sequencing and advanced bioinformatics, the resultants SNIP profile was sent to the DDP.

7:40Research by DDP volunteer genetic genealogists began on February 25, 2020. They uploaded the SNIP profile to Jedmatch and there found a likely third cousin who shared 102 centimorgans of DNA with John Doe. 48 hours interviewed the DDP genealogist who worked on the case Robin Estonson. She said, When the cases come to DNA Doe project, everything has already been exhausted. Genetic genealogy is the last resort. So we use the DNA, look at the matches and we can build family trees that way and figure out the identities of people. We knew that we had found the identity of our Doe. After just two days on February 27, 2020, the DDP contacted Baron County Detective Nelson to report that a possible match for John Doe was Gary Albert Herbst. This from a DDP release, team leader Jenny Leesha's described the moment the pieces fell into place. There is such exhilaration one through genetic genealogy we can return a name to someone,

8:41but a bittersweet realization knowing a family will not be getting the answer they hoped for. Our hearts go out to them. Well, she spoke a little too soon because as soon as Detective Nelson dug into Gary Albert Herbst, he could tell that something was fishy. Gary had been missing since 2013 and no missing persons report had been filed for him by his family. The DDP recommended that Detective Nelson reach out to Gary Herbst's son Austin for a confirmatory DNA sample. He ended up getting voluntary samples from Herbst's wife and his son. The testing confirmed the relationship. John Doe was Gary Albert Herbst. A June 2020 Baron County Sheriff's Office Press release announced the identification of the John Doe found South of Baron in December 2017 as Gary Albert Herbst, age 63, of new prog Minnesota. Baron County Sheriff Chris Fitzgerald revealed publicly that Gary was a victim of a homicide and had died from a gunshot wound to the head. The manner of death is now being investigated as a homicide and is an active case in

9:45the Sheriff's Department, he said. So who was Gary? Gary Albert Herbst was born on June 2, 1956 to parents, forest, Edward Herbst and Evelyn May Fallsstad Herbst. He grew up in Northern Wisconsin. His sister Linda Dane told 48 hours Gary was a loner with a difficult personality who rarely saw his extended family. Gary married Connie Lou Jamison in Butternut, Wisconsin in April 1978. They moved to Richfield, Minnesota in 1980 and then in 1981 settled in Elco, New Market. Gary worked at various machining jobs in the Twin Cities metro area and Connie worked as a cook. Their son Austin James Herbst was born on May 30, 1994. When Nelson learned that Gary had disappeared sometime in the time frame of July 6th to 8th 2013. Neither Connie nor Austin who was 19 at the time reported him missing for a year.

10:50Then on July 6th 2014, Connie got in touch with the authorities at the urging of Gary's Texas-based brother who was trying to contact Gary and connection with settling their parents' estate after the death of their mother. Connie told the brother that sometime in early July 2013, Gary came home to their residence and three-four-seven Wagner Way in Elco, New Market packed some clothing and took $5,000 in cash. He then left in a grey Honda vehicle driven by an unknown person, but he left his cell phone behind. He also left his new pickup truck. Connie had not heard from him since, she said. Connie also told Gary's sister Linda the same story. The Gary had packed and left in an older grey Honda with an unknown driver. After Gary's brother expressed concern about Gary's being missing, Connie went to her small local law enforcement agency and said her husband had left a year earlier and now was being sought by his family in connection with an estate settlement. The duty officer made a note in the shift log with Gary's name and missing status and

11:52issued a bollo to other area agencies. But no formal report was taken and as a result, Gary's missing status was not reflected in NCIC, Namissa, or anywhere else. Now in 2020, the Wisconsin authorities learned all this and that Connie and her son had relocated to New Prague, Scott County, Minnesota. I'm backtracking a little bit to before the confirmatory DNA samples were collected because they were collected in the course of preliminary interviews with Connie and Austin that took place on February 28th, 2020. This from 48 hours, Detective Jeff Nelson from the Barron County Sheriff's Office tracked down Austin and Connie at the retirement community where they both worked. Here's Detective Jeff Nelson. I think it was a little bit of a surprise to them. We actually found out that both Connie, Herbson, and her son Austin, walked at a nursing home. We basically walked in unannounced and met with both of them. Peter Van Zant. When you told Connie that you would found her missing husband, likely had found him,

12:53was she excited about the news or was she stoic about it? Detective Nelson. Both of them were very stoic, never even commented well, at least we know it's him. It's like they just glossed over it. Well Detective Nelson interviewed Connie. He told me that she gave a clearly canned story, one that seemed pre-planned. Connie told him that on July 6th, 2013, she was at her local library when her son, Austin, called to say his father had left in an grave or silver Honda driven by an unknown person. Connie also gave an interview to 48 hours. She said he goes, Dad left, dad left, he got in a vehicle with somebody. Connie said she came home and found her husband was gone in her bedroom ransacked, missing where his clothing, $5,000 in cash, her 45 caliber 6-hour handgun she had purchased in the mid 90s and her wedding ring. But he left his Chevy Silverado 2010 pickup and his cell phone. Connie explained that Gary, her husband, had trouble holding down a job, was frequently

13:54unemployed and was verbally and physically abusive to her and occasionally to Austin. Again from 48 hours, Brent Peterson, a special agent with the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, joined Detective Nelson to interview Connie. Special agent Peterson. She was not uncooperative, she was just trying to be helpful, on at least that was the appearance. The investigators asked Connie why she didn't report Gary missing. She said, because he left on his own, I said I didn't think I had to. Connie told investigators she wasn't surprised, Gary walked out on them because he had a troubled lifestyle. Special agent Peterson. She described Gary as a drug user, he would use drugs and spend all their money, he was just described to us as being a generally kind of volatile, angry, unpleasant person. Special agent Peterson asked Connie, how was he with Austin? She said, up until the age of 10, great, but at the age of 10, when Gary would start his yelling and screaming at me, Austin would step in between, don't yell at my mom.

14:55Special agent Peterson, did he ever hit you in the 30 plus years you guys were married? Connie, once or twice. Special agent Peterson, yeah. Connie, one time he hit me pretty hard, black and blue on my shoulder. The other time he actually didn't hit me, he pushed me and I broke my toe. When the investigators pushed Connie about whether she had ever reported this abuse, she said, no, I'm a strong Irish woman. The investigators felt that there were a lot of red flags in this interview. Connie asked no questions about where her husband had been found or what had happened to him. She seemed emotionally detached from the entire situation. And she and her son never told anyone that Gary had left and had left behind his new truck and cell phone. Shiv Nelson was suspicious. He told me the investigators pushed back on Connie's story about Gary leaving. They asked if she'd ever checked to see whether his credit card was being used and she said, no. She also didn't question him leaving with someone known person and not taking his truck or phone, but it didn't add up. Police interviewed Austin next.

15:56He said his father left in 2013 and he hadn't heard from him since. 48 hours again. In his interview Austin told investigators his father had become enraged the day he left and later he learned his father had stolen $5,000 in cash and his mother's wedding ring. Austin said, I heard him banging around in the master bedroom. I'm like, okay, what's going on? Looked in. He was packing his suitcase. He's like, I'm leaving. And yeah, he got in some guy pulled up and picked him up. After their initial interviews, both Austin and Connie willingly gave DNA samples to identify Gary. They also confirmed that Gary had a full set of dentures, just like the Baron County John Doe. The Wisconsin State Crime Lab test results came in on March 16, 2020. They compared the buckle swabs taken from Connie and Austin to the DNA profile obtained from the human remains found in Baron County. The report concluded that it was at least 87 trillion times more likely to observe the profile from Austin if the questioned profile from the human remains was his biological father

16:58than from an unrelated random individual. So now the investigators knew definitively that their gunshot victim was Gary Albert Herbst. They wanted to know who killed him and they had some idea. Connie's story about being at the library and Gary stealing a bunch of specific items and leaving with an unknown person raised the seasoned investigators eyebrows. Forty-eight hours. Detective Nelson, I wouldn't say incriminating, but I strongly felt she had certainly knowledge of his murder. I figured she had some form of involvement. On June 16, 2020, Wisconsin officers re-interviewed Connie and Austin. Here's an excerpt from Austin's interview as shown on Forty-eight hours. Detective Nelson. So you know, your mom talked of some abuse issues in the family, how you were very protective of her. Austin. Yeah. Detective Nelson. And we understand that. Austin. But it was more of the fact that I hated when he would sit there and yell at her and it would upset her.

17:58In Austin's second interview, he told sort of the same story he had back in February. His mother was not home on the day that Gary left. It was unusual for Gary not to drive his own truck, and he also had never left for an extended period of time before. When Austin called his mom and she came home, she found money missing. An excerpt from Austin's interview with the investigators. Yeah, he was an angry guy and stuff, but I never expected that to get to the point where someone would want to kill him. And then Austin's story started to evolve. Now he said when Gary was picked up by the driver of the gray or silver car, he actually did see the driver. A black male was several tattoos wearing a black shirt. The excerpt from Austin's interview on Forty-eight hours, that's about it. That's as far as I can get. And that I got a really uneasy sense about it. That was it. As reported by DNA Solutions, Austin admitted he didn't have a good relationship with his father, but he denied that he would ever commit patricide, saying he knew that term from online gaming. But then at the end of the interview, he also confessed that he knew the truth about what

19:02had happened to his father. However, he was not willing to divulge it. In Connie's second interview, the officers confronted her with a vehicle title in Gary's name for his 2003 Chevy Impala. The vehicle had been sold and retitled in Wisconsin, and the title bore Gary's signature, and a date of December 2nd, 2017. That was four years after Gary had gone missing. Connie's response was that Gary routinely pre-signed and predated all his vehicle titles, because that's something you do. Surprisingly, both Connie and Austin agreed to take polygraph exams after their second interviews. However, Connie headed off her polygraph by saying she had Parkinson's disease, and because of the symptoms, she knew she wouldn't pass. She wanted to appear cooperative, but explained her anticipated failure of the test. When it came time for her to actual polygraph, Detective Nelson asked her about the Parkinson's, and she said, oh no, I'm just very familiar with the symptoms because I work at a nursing home, and I'm sure I have it.

20:02I've never been diagnosed though. Okay lady. Connie's results were inconclusive. Austin failed his lie detector test miserably. Austin's excerpted on 48 hours. They interview with Austin with an FBI investigator. The investigator. So I'm very convinced you clearly know what happened. Austin, I don't. I'm telling you. FBI guy. Austin, you can't walk away here saying you don't know anything because you clearly know something. Austin, no. FBI guy. Whatever it is, you gotta tell me. Austin, I suspected that the guy in the truck wasn't exactly friendly. I just, the look I got from him, he was a little sketchy. FBI guy. Either you're involved with your mom and killing your father or you're involved with someone else and killing your father. Austin, I'm not involved with it. I'm just gonna tell you, getting my mom involved that is pretty out of this world. Despite not having a confession, the Wisconsin investigators were starting to build a case against Connie in Austin. On June 29th, they contacted former neighbors of the family from when they had lived at

21:02347 Wagner Way in Elko, Newmarket. One neighbor, Jason Grimm, who had lived across the street from the Herbst family reported that Gary was a difficult neighbor and generally unpleasant, frequently yelling profanities at neighbors and calling the police over minor disputes. The only time Jason recalled Gary being sociable was after he purchased a new pickup truck that he really wanted to show off. The same truck that Connie in Austin maintained he left behind to drive off in an old Honda. 48 hours. The neighbors' police interviewed all said the same thing, Detective Nelson. We repeatedly heard the term the biggest A-hole you'll ever meet. If he was mad at a neighbor, apparently he had a pipe organ and he would set up big speakers in the windows and he would blast pipe organ music into the neighbor's house. In the wintertime, when he would get mad at a neighbor, he would take a snowblower over and purposefully blow and fill people's yards up in the middle of the night. Peter Van Zant was snow, Detective Nelson, with snow. Jason Grimm, remembered a yard sale held by Connie in Austin in mid-2013.

22:06There was no sign of Gary. At the yard sale, Connie in Austin were selling Gary's clothing and tools. Jason did not recall seeing Gary ever after the Zerat sale, but said that starting around that time, Connie and Austin were friendlier and much more interactive with the neighbors than they ever had been, even handing out cookies. Another set of neighbors, initials NS and MS, who also lived across the street from Gary and his family, were interviewed on June 29. They too were called that when Gary purchased his new pickup truck, he invited the neighbors to come over and look at it, which was very uncharacteristic. The family was pretty insular and didn't go out or socialize, but after Gary vanished, these neighbors saw Connie and Austin going outside more often and even entertaining. NS and MS were called specifically that the yard sale took place on August 30, 2013. They confirmed that Connie and Austin were selling Gary's tools and clothing. NS and MS also had more crucial information. Sometime in mid-August 2013, they saw a black pickup truck parked in the backyard of the

23:10Herb's residence. This was at night and it was dark out. The truck was on the grass, backed up to the sliding glass door at the rear of the house. This had never happened before. As they watched out the window, they saw Connie and Austin loading up something in the back of the pickup truck that looked like a rolled up carpet. Once they put the carpet in the bed of the truck, they hulked their boat onto the truck and drove away. They were gone one to three days and later reported they were on a fishing trip. NS and MS never saw Gary again. The investigators weren't done finding neighbors who had juicy details to report. On June 29, they spoke with some more former neighbors, Kaya and Chad Cremel, whose house was right behind the Herb's house. According to the criminal complaint, Kaya and Chad said Gary was unpleasant and abrasive, yelled obscenities and called the police over frivolous matters. On 48 hours Peter Van Sand asked Kaya and Chad, did you feel he was a dangerous man? Kaya said absolutely.

24:11Chad and Kaya also said Gary was very particular about his lawn and property boundaries, which is why they were astonished when sometime in 2013, they thought August but it could have been July, at night between 10 p.m. and 1 a.m. as they were watching a big storm out of their window, they saw Gary's pickup truck parked on the grass in the backyard of the Herb's home, outside the lower level walkout doors. They saw Kaya and Austin carry a large rolled up carpet or rug from the basement, walk out doors and place the rug in the bed of Gary's pickup. They continued to watch as Kaya and Austin cleaned and scrubbed the basement floor and the area in front of the lower level patio glass doors. Then, they carried several large black colored bags from the house and put them in the truck. The next morning the truck was gone. They never saw Gary after this incident. The garage sale took place after this event. When Kaya and Chad went to the garage sale, Kaya told them that Gary had walked out on the family. Kaya said on 48 hours, men's clothing, men's shoes, there were tools, ammo boxes. Peter Van Sand now, did you ask her where's Gary?

25:14Kaya, yes, and the answer was that he didn't want to be married anymore and he left. Jason Graham told 48 hours he scored a bargain. I did. I bought a riding lawn tractor. Another former neighbor, initials SDT, lived across the street from the Herbs. He was interviewed as well. He also stated that before Gary disappeared, Kani and Austin didn't appear outside much and didn't socialize in the hood. After Gary vanished, they were more social. At the garage sale, Kani told STT that Gary left. Kani sold the house and they moved away a few months later. On June 30, 2020, the Baron County investigators spoke with Gary's former employer, initials SG, at RL tool in Bloomington, Minnesota. SG confirmed that the last day Gary worked was July 8, 2013, when he completed his shift at 3pm. The next day Gary didn't show for work. At which point, he simply stopped showing up and SG never heard from him again. I'd like to point out the discrepancy in the dates here.

26:16Kani and Austin said in their interviews that Gary left on July 6th, but his boss said he was at work on the 8th. It's unclear whether the two were just confused as to the date when things occurred. The criminal complaint filed in Minnesota states that the murder occurred on or about July 8, 2013. Eager to find physical evidence to support all the circumstantial evidence they had gathered. On June 29, the investigators received permission from D.H., the new owner of 347 Wagner Way in Elko, New Market, to search the house where Gary, Kani and Austin had lived when Gary disappeared. The current homeowner told officers that while remodeling the basement in August 2019, they discovered a stain on the concrete floor that seemed unusual. Officers had a cadaver dog named Radar searched the residence, and the dog gave indicators of the presence of human decomp near the sliding glass door in the basement as well as on the north wall of the garage. Forensic scientists did a presumptive chemical test for the presence of human blood on the

27:18stain on the concrete floor in the basement which rendered a positive result. Remember that some of the neighbors had seen the pickup truck backed up to those sliding glass doors and a rolled up carpet carried out. All of this was more than sufficient probable cause for the investigators to obtain a search warrant for the home. They executed it on July 9, 2020, and BCA personnel used lumenol which was presumptive positive for blood on the following items. The drywall directly next to the stain on the concrete floor in the basement. The wood studs behind the drywall. Lower track and door area of the sliding glass door leading out of the basement. A small area on the floor north side of the garage where the cadaver dog had indicated. And rubber mats that were previously in the basement. Long past the point of covertly investigating Connie and Austin, Scott County deputies and officers from New Prague executed a search warrant at the 805 Horizon Drive home of Connie and Austin in New Prague on July 28, 2020.

28:21They seized numerous electronic devices. The forensic search of the computer seized revealed that Austin had searched for defense attorneys for homicide cases. And some very revealing texts were uncovered on their phones, which I will get into momentarily. In a third interview session of each of Connie and Austin, the investigators confronted them about the blood evidence uncovered via the search warrant. Per 48 hours special agent Peterson. So we went to your old house on Wagner Way and just had a look trying to piece together Gary's kind of last movements and there was some blood. Connie, okay. Connie told the investigator that Gary who was a machinist often worked on projects and sometimes accidentally cut himself. Usually it was his finger, she said. Special agent Peterson. The blood that we're finding is a bit more significant than just a little cut on the finger. Connie, oh that, I wouldn't know. Special agent Peterson. And witnesses saw what they thought was a rolled up rug being loaded in the back of the

29:24pickup. Connie, no, I don't know. We didn't have any carpet just up in the living room. They pressed her about the alleged abuse inflicted on her by Gary, special agent Peterson again. So it sounds like Gary was a little psychologically abusive with you guys. Connie, yeah. Peterson, what about physical abuse? Connie, one time, he, well he hit me. He sat with investigators for about 90 minutes and offered no significant new information other than when asked about where they went in the pickup truck when she and Austin disappeared for a few days after the neighbors saw the truck backed up to the glass doors. She said they had attempted to go camping at Turtle Flambo, flowed lake in northern Wisconsin. But the boat motor was broken so they couldn't use it so they came home. When the investigators tried to extend the interview, Connie asked for an attorney and the interview ended. Austin was a lot more conversant and he contradicted his mother. When asked about the camping trip, he said they had gone camping on the weekend after his

30:26father left up in northern Wisconsin. They drove Gary's silver pickup. The boat was working fine. Austin talked about the time before his father disappeared. He said during the last year and particularly the months immediately prior to Gary's disappearance in the summer of 2013, Gary became increasingly verbally and physically abusive toward his mother and Austin intervened and became his mother's protector. The interview ended and investigators continued to build their case. But on July 31st, 2020, they suffered a setback when the Minnesota BCI issued a report that stated that they were unable to obtain a usable DNA profile from the blood samples collected from the house at 347 Wagner Way in Elko, Newmarket. Well that was unfortunate. But luckily there was some pretty damning information on the cell phones seized from Austin and Connie's home. The mother's undo had basically freaked out when Gary was identified publicly. On June 24th, 2020 at 10.33 in the morning, Connie texted Austin, it was on Channel 9 news

31:30last night. She was apparently referring to the press release issued by the Baron County Sheriff's Office the previous day stating that they had identified human remains found in Baron County as Gary Herbst and the case was being investigated as a homicide. Then on July 18th at 3.03 pm, Connie texted Austin, you need to call me ASAP right away. That same date at 3.37, Connie texted Austin, might have a problem they are searching 347. Don't mean to fuck up your vacation just wanted you to know it's in the paper. Austin was camping with friends at the time. His phone records reflected that he took a phone call from his mother. William Nelson continued to gather circumstantial evidence of Connie and Austin's involvement in Gary's death. He interviewed Gary's co-workers who would testify to a person. The Gary was an asshole, but that he was incredibly proud of his new truck and showed it off to everyone. He ran a gun trace on Connie's missing six hour and learned she had bought it at a cabela's in the mid 90s, well before Gary went missing. He had the cadaver dog hit on the former Herbst's home and the presumptive test for blood.

32:35The neighbors told him that less than a week after Gary went missing, Connie and Austin hosted a garage sale in which they sold off all Gary's clothes and tools. One neighbor he interviewed even showed Detective Nelson a group text among the other neighbors, dating from July of 2013. In this text, these neighbors told the others of watching Connie and Austin hauling the rug out of the house late at night and cleaning the basement. The text said, we think they killed Gary tonight. This set off a long text chain of speculation among the neighbors about a possible murder of Gary. No one reported any of it. But now the police were inquiring, everyone in the former neighborhood said that Connie and Austin's behavior drastically changed after the disappearance and they became almost friendly. Investigators attempted to interview Connie another time, but she was not cooperative and requested that they terminate the interview. Austin sat with the investigators for several hours as they asked questions, but was pretty much monosolabic or even silent for up to 30 minutes at a time and just sat there picking

33:36his nails or staring at the floor. Finally about five hours in, Detective Nelson said, we know you and your mom are involved, but we want to know why. Also I'm concerned about where the gun is and a kid may be getting his hands on it. At this Austin volunteered, no kid's going to get his hands on it. That gun is 60 feet deep in Turtle Flambeau flowage I can show you where. When they asked whether he threw the gun from land or from a boat, he said, I want to tell you guys the truth, but I need to talk to my mom first. Austin was concerned about what would happen to his job and their dogs if he told the truth. They had to let him go, but the investigators felt like they had a good circumstantial case and they presented it via a PowerPoint to the Scott County Minnesota Prosecutors' Office, the jurisdiction which Gary had been living at the time of the murder. After some initial hesitancy, Scott County agreed to proceed. Several complaints were filed in Scott County Minnesota's District Court on November 18, 2020, charging Austin, James Herbst and Connie Herbst with aiding and abetting second degree intentional

34:38murder that is without premeditation. A press release from Scott County Sheriff Luke Henan dated November 19, 2020 announced their arrests at their home. Quote, at approximately seven this morning, Scott County Sheriff's detectives, along with representatives from the Barron County Sheriff's Office, the State of Wisconsin Department of Justice Division of Criminal Investigation, and officers from the new Prague Police Department arrested without incident. Connie Luhurbst, aged 62, and Austin James Herbst, aged 26, both of new Prague, Minnesota. These individuals were booked into the Scott County jail on suspicion of second degree murder. Simultaneous charges were also brought in Wisconsin's Barron County for corpse concealment. This was done deliberately. In the event, Connie and Austin were bonded out in Minnesota so they could then be arrested in Wisconsin. The charges in dual jurisdictions were designed so the duo would be kept in custody one way or another. However, they didn't get bonded out in Minnesota so it was irrelevant and the Wisconsin

35:38charges were eventually dropped. Connie declined to speak with investigators after her arrest. She was sent off to jail. Austin was Miranda's and interviewed for another six hours and was non-cooperative until finally he caved. He said to Detective Nelson, I might as well tell you what I did. Detective Nelson said Austin, that's what we've been asking for. Austin said his father had been terrorizing his mother that day, July 6, 2013. Again, that date is in question. And when he saw his father asleep on the couch and the gun sticking out from under the couch, he knew his father was going to kill his mom. So he took the gun and shot his dad in the head as he slept. The location of the wound described in the autopsy report was consistent with Austin's story of his dad lying on the couch, his head slightly elevated on the couch cushion or arm. So Austin maintained he killed his father to protect his mother from abuse. Connie he said only learned of the murder after the fact. To be blunt, investigators are not sure they believe this.

36:41When Connie got home, Austin said the two went into damage control. Doctors believe that they rolled up Gary's body in a carpet and put it in the garage. The next day, they cut up the bloody couch with a saw and put it in bags. After dark, they loaded the body into the truck bed and drove up toward northern Wisconsin to dispose of it. But they decided it was too risky in case there was a traffic stop. So they randomly ditched the body in Barron County where it was found four years later. Back at home, they loaded up the cut up couch, the bloody carpet, Gary's clothes, the saw and the gun into the truck via the basement doors. They cleaned the basement area and drove up to a northern Wisconsin Island campground. There they took the boat across through the gun in 60 feet of water and burned the rug, couch, clothes and cleaning supplies in a fire pit at the campground. Scott County attorney Hosevar told the Minnesota star tribune of the gun, it will never be found, where he said he threw it is under 12 feet of mud.

37:42Faced with murder charges, County herbs took a plea deal. On December 8, 2021, she pleaded guilty in court to felony, aiding and offender, Austin, as an accomplice after the fact. This was a lesser charge than the initial charge of felony second-degree murder with intent, but not premeditated, which was dismissed. At County's sentencing on February 24, 2022, the prosecutor argued for the max sentence of 57 months, arguing that County helped cover up a murder and showed no remorse for her actions. As reported by Southwest News Media, quote, the cover up was particularly egregious because it lasted so many years. Scott County chief deputies Sarah Wendorf said in court. She argued that even though Connie and Austin claimed Gary was abusive, that did not justify retaliation and lawlessness. However, Connie's attorney, John Baccaro, argued for a much shorter sentence, arguing that Connie had no criminal record and was just protecting her son. And she had crossed a line that many parents would cross, he said.

38:43I'm not sure how evidence of the abuse alleged by Connie was presented. I believe she was permitted to testify in court. Scott County District Court Judge Colleen King took pity on her, saying the case was heart-wrenching, and the abuse suffered by Connie and Austin was, quote, some of the worst domestic abuse she's seen, end quote. The judge was suede, she said, by Connie not being involved in the murder itself, having no serious previous offenses and being a victim of domestic abuse. For those reasons, she sentenced Connie to just 27 months in prison, a downward departure from the sentencing guidelines calling for 41 to 57 months. And of the 27 months the judge gave Connie, she could get that down to 18 if she behaved herself in prison. She also received credit for 462 days time served under the Minnesota sentencing guidelines. All in all, Connie ended up serving just three months behind bars, at the women's only Minnesota Correctional Facilities' Sheikopee, and she was released in May of 2022.

39:45Austin, the admitted shooter, also pleaded guilty in December 2021 to aiding and abetting second-degree intentional murder. Pushing for the maximum sentence understate guidelines, the prosecution wrote in its brief that Austin Herbst quote, executed his father and then through his father away like yesterday's trash. This all from Yahoo News quote, to this day, I believe he was going to kill her that night, Austin Herbst is quoted in a pre-sentence defense argument. If I would have stood aside, my mom would be dead. I knew what I did and why I did it and to this day I'm confident that my decisions were justified." The son went on to explain in the defense filing that he took his father's handgun from under the couch where he slept and shot him in the back of the head in order to free his mother from a prison. And I put her back in one. I'm really hoping she gets a reduced sentence. It wasn't her fault. She was just trying to protect me and I was trying to protect her. The defense argument revealed many accusations spanning years of Gary Herbst being a cruel,

40:45dangerous bully to his wife and son. Gary Herbst threatened many times to kill his wife over their 30 years of marriage. Also, the son alleged his mother wasn't allowed to have any friends nor allowed to speak with family. He didn't even allow her to go to her mother's funeral. Austin Herbst told the court. If the two of them went anyway, the son continued. His father threatened to call the cops on my mom for kidnapping and would plant drugs on her. Austin Herbst said his father often hit his mother. We're calling. My mother always had bruises I noticed as a kid. He said his father directed physical abuse at him as well. Once, quote, he was angry at me for interrupting and put a cigarette out on me at age 6 or 7. A couple of years later, Austin Herbst to close to the court, I bothered him by going into the basement and he grabbed me by the neck and he threw me up the stairs resulting in an injured back. All that from Yahoo News reporting on the courtroom testimony. Austin later told 48 hours, my father Gary Herbst was vindictive to an extreme that I've never seen in anybody else. He was cruel. He was petty.

41:45He was violent. He put a cigarette out on my arm and I screamed and cried and ran. I did something wrong. He picked me up by the throat and threw me down a flight of stairs. Physical abuse on a weekly sometimes daily basis. Always demeaning, always negative. Peter Van Sant asked Austin, did you ever see a time in which he drew blood from your mother from striking her? Austin yes, he punched her right in the face, pure black and blue. The next day she had blood leaking from her mouth. Van Sant, psychological abuse, physical abuse? Austin yep. Van Sant, you swear on everything you believe in. You're telling me the truth. Austin, absolutely. Austin who was just 19 years old when he murdered his father recalls that tragic day, July 6th, 2013. Austin, the start of the day seemed very normal to me. Austin remembers playing video games that afternoon when his dad returned home from work. Van Sant, had he been drinking that day? Austin yeah, he drank regularly. About around I'd say I think it was like two or three o'clock. My mom came home and she and him got into an argument about money.

42:48There was yelling. I tried my best to protect her. I am a wall. I will not let this continue. Austin says his mom then went to the public library. My father at this point was lying on the couch half asleep and as I walked out I saw that the scurrying was like crumpled up. I lifted up the scurrying and I saw the firearm. Van Sant, it's a pistol. Austin yes. Austin said his father had never bought a gun into the living room before. Austin, in my heart of hearts I knew that my mother's life was in danger and by extension my own. It all just culminated like oh my god he's going to kill her. All these thoughts ran through my head almost instantaneously. And I reached underneath the couch. I grabbed the gun. I pointed at him and I pulled the trigger. You know it was almost so real right? Like the bag went off my hearing popped and it was just immediately there was almost like a numbness. Van Sant, I've never asked this question in all my years on 48 hours. What was it like to pick up that pistol pointed at your father's head and pull the trigger? Austin, it broke me.

43:48It changed who I am irrevocably. I can never be the person I was or even the person I would have become had that never happened. There was a level of relief knowing that I would never again have to have that fear, having to worry about my mother's life, having to worry about my life. Van Sant, your life while he was sleeping there on the couch was not under imminent threat. You didn't have to shoot him. This wasn't legally self-defense. Austin, right. Correct. Van Sant, this was murder. Austin, correct. Austin said they threw his father in the truck and drove to Wisconsin about two hours later. He and his mom pulled into a field next to a patch of trees. He says they dumped Gary's body and then fled. Austin told Peter Van Sant, I figured that wildlife would take care of the rest. Van Sant, what do you mean wildlife take care? Austin, bears, foxes, they would devour the body. The bones would be scattered. Nobody would know. Van Sant, that seems a bit barbaric. Austin, absolutely. I was not in the state of mind that I ever want to revisit. Per 48 hours, prosecutors set a potential motive for Gary's murder was hate, illustrated

44:52by how Austin left his father's corpse in these woods to be eaten. Van Sant, that is inhuman. Austin, absolutely. Van Sant, that is barbaric. Inhumanity that at the time seemed to have left Austin overjoyed. Austin, I experienced more happiness afterward than I had for my entire 18 years of living with him. Van Sant, you're having cookies with the neighbors while your father's corpse is being eaten by animals. Austin, yeah, it was a strange dichotomy. It actually brought me a sense of almost shame that my happiness is on the feet of the ultimate act of violence. It still makes me wonder what kind of person I am that could have happened. Van Sant. So under the same circumstances, you would still shoot him again? Austin, I believe so. The prosecutors gunning for the max sentence for Austin pointed out to the judge that Gary had been asleep on the couch when he was killed. This was hardly a self-defense situation. Austin, they said, had options available to him other than shooting his father in cold blood. He could have removed the gun from the scene. He could have left the house. He could have warned his mother.

45:53He did none of those things. The prosecutors told the judge instead. The defendant simply made the choice to kill his father because he had the opportunity. The pistol was there and loaded. He chose to murder his father as a matter of convenience to eliminate what he saw as a problem. Prosecutors Sarah Windorf told 48 hours, what Austin described as happening was not an emergency situation. It did not rise to a self-defense offense. Peter Van Sant talked to prosecutor Mike Groh. What are the options that his son could have done other than kill Gary? Groh said he could have grabbed the gun, left the house, and told the police what had been going on. All of those things are possible and very doable, except shooting him in the head, which is the last thing that a civilized person would supposedly do. I made it clear to the judge that he deserved the highest sentence because of the callous way that he was killed and the body was treated. But Judge Caroline Lennon said she found Austin's claims believable. In her ruling, she said, I find it credible that you believe that he was going to kill your

46:53mom. Later said Austin, quote, felt an underlying obligation to protect his mother. Sentencing guidelines applicable to Austin called for a term ranging from 21 and three quarters to 30 and a half years. Judge Lennon gave Austin 150 months a total of 12 and a half years, which was significantly below the state guidelines. She was apparently swayed by his statement that he and his mother had been physically and emotionally abused for years by his father and that he killed Gary because he couldn't take it anymore and wanted the abuse of his mother to stop. Further, of the 12 and a half years, Austin will spend seven and three quarters years in the Minnesota Correctional Facilities St. Cloud and the other four and three quarters years will be spent on supervised release. Judge Lennon clearly did not feel that Austin was a danger to society. So that is the conclusion of the Gary Herbst case. Of course, all of this begs the questions. Was Gary really abusive and did Austin truly feel that killing his father was his only

47:54recourse and was it Austin who shot Gary to protect his mother or did Connie do it? Was this actually a conspiracy to commit premeditated murder? Again an extra from 48 hours, prosecutors Sarah Wendorf, we have never seen any information to suggest that there was any abuse that Gary committed against Austin or his wife. Prosecutor Mike Groo, they never said anything until they were in trouble and then they told these reasons why they were abused. It's horrendous because if we allow that kind of justice to go, nobody's safe because they'll say I've been abused, that's why I did this. Peter Van Sant questioned Austin directly. The prosecutors in this case say, well, there's no real evidence that any of this happened. Austin, of course, and I can't, I can't refute that. I can't refute that there's no evidence that occurred. It's all hearsay. Austin told 48 hours he and his mom had never reported abuse to the police, friends or extended family members because they feared for their lives at the hands of Gary. Van Sant, the prosecutors say investigators were never able to find evidence that that's

48:56true that she was at the library and they wonder if your mother was the one who killed your father and that you as her protector, have told a story where you're taking responsibility for something that she did. Austin, my mom would never allow me to take the fall like that if she'd done it. Van Sant, and I need to ask you that question, did your mother Connie shoot and kill your father? Austin, I'm telling you right now on everything I hold dear, my mother did not shoot my father. Okay, so Austin's taken to his story that he was the lone actor and his mother was just an accessory after the fact. What do investigators think? Detective Jeff Nelson, a special agent, Joe Welsh, of the Wisconsin Department of Justice who now works for Nameless and whom I got to meet in person at Cremcon. Both believe that Connie was fully involved in what happened to Gary, who actually pulled the trigger no one knows, but they believe Connie and Austin planned for the murder to happen and took the opportunity to carry it out when they had the chance in July of 2013. The gun belonged to Connie. She told the investigators she stored it in her bedroom closet, which she the one who pulled

49:59it out and delivered the fatal shot or was it Austin that his mother's urging? We will almost certainly never know. Detective Nelson tried to confirm or refute Connie's presence at her local library on the day the murder occurred, which again was either the 6th or 8th of July. Connie said in her interviews that she sought refuge at the library when Gary would come at her. It was a cooling off place that was near the house, but of course any records of her presence there are long gone. I think we can all agree that whatever happened, Austin and Connie both got very light sentences. Yes, it was universally agreed that Gary Herbs was a Class A A-hole. Yes, he was probably abusive, but did he deserve to be shot in the head by his family members while he slept on the couch? Debatable. I will be curious to hear what listeners think about this, so please share your thoughts on your favorite social media platform. Thanks for listening to this episode of DNA ID. Before you leave, please let me tell you about some important things related to the show. If you'd like to support this podcast and in the process, get access to early and ad-free

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