Does America think it's fighting a ‘holy war’ in Iran?

Sky News, the full story first.

James, welcome back to the podcast.

Where have you been?

Thank you, Martha.

Yeah, well, I've been on holiday, my daughter's over.

Oh, nice.

So we, yeah, we're in DC mostly.

We're going to New York for a couple of days.

However, I've got to ask you where you are

because all I can hear is beach sort of activity

in the background, right?

You know exactly where I am.

South Beach, Miami.

Don't be too jealous.

South Beach, Miami.

Yeah, grass you up.

It's spring break.

I'm wearing far too many clothes.

Let me tell you that.

Well, I'm far too old for spring break.

But listen, I tell you, I was in Broadway.

I went to Broadway Play.

Operation Mincemeat, which is great.

But something interesting happened in the course of this

two-hour play.

There was a line, a line of script,

and it was about fascism,

opening the door to fascism, in the throwaway line.

But everything stopped in this theatre

and the audience applauded.

Wow.

That's what happens now.

You know, the public here are,

there are tuned to fascism,

the threat, and it kind of stirs them into action.

Well, especially a New York audience.

Well, exactly, yeah.

But you know, I reflected on two things.

A, that and fascism and all the rest of it.

But I also reflected on how that's my life now.

I hear something like that.

And I can't just live in the moment.

All I'm thinking is,

that'll make another 30 seconds for the podcast.

There's the banter.

I'm James Matthews in Washington, DC.

And I'm Martha Kelner on Miami's South Beach in Florida.

As I say, for work, not for fun, sadly.

A little later in the podcast, I'll explain exactly why I'm here.

Donald Trump will be joining me tomorrow,

not on the podcast, sadly.

But he will be here in Miami to make a speech.

Yeah, I can see him with a spring break trousers on.

He hosted a cabinet meeting here in DC today.

I've been watching that so you don't have to.

Iran came up, of course.

And Trump, he's not taken the off ramp quite yet.

But this very much had the feel of mirror signal maneuver.

We'll also speak about mail-in voting.

The president's been doing a bit of that curious.

Some might say it says he's famously not a fan.

Yeah, first though, I've been cooking up the air miles.

I've just arrived in Miami from Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Been there looking at how Christianity and the church

is becoming a significant part of the direction of this administration.

And I've been asking, if we're in the middle of a modern day,

holy war in Iran.

No, Martha, you've been in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Very different to your normal beat of LA, yeah.

Yeah, just a bit.

Although I have to say Tulsa, surprisingly good food.

You won't think of Tulsa.

Oklahoma has been a culinary destination.

But very good.

Very good meals there.

But yeah, Oklahoma, obviously, very different to LA.

One of the ready states in the country.

In fact, I discovered all 77 counties in Oklahoma voted for Trump

in the 2024 presidential election.

The sixth straight presidential election, in fact,

where every single one of the counties in Oklahoma voted for a Republican.

So this is bread and butter, very much Trump country, very conservative.

And I went there to try and understand this connection that we're seeing,

this growing link between church and state under this administration.

As we know, conservative Christians have access to this White House

like never before.

We've all seen those remarkable pictures, videos of these pastors

praying behind Trump, stood laying their hands on him

on his shoulders inside the White House behind the Resolute desk.

And he's a president who's introduced the first dedicated White House faith office.

And I think we're seeing it increasingly so since the outbreak of the Iran War.

And of course, that's propelled Pete Hagset, the self-styled Secretary of War,

more into the spotlight.

And he's got this habit, doesn't he, of using biblical rhetoric to try and rally the troops

and to try and garner support from the general public for this conflict, you know,

invoking divine purpose to justify America's military might

abroad. He's been talking about the war in terms of Armageddon,

describing it as an essential test in his words to ensure Western nations

remain Christian nations under God.

And it's got people quite worried.

Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle.

God bless our troops and this mission.

Yeah, Martha, it's a fish show at the Pentagon on Wednesday.

Hagset, he held a religious gathering, a Christian sort of worship service

for civilian and military workers.

He prayed for overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy.

He is known, Hagset, for fervent religious views, some of which have caused controversy.

There are his tattoos, of course, for one thing.

Like that Jerusalem cross he has in his chest.

Critics point out that is a popular symbol with some far right groups.

That tattoo and others, they, they eulogized the crusades.

And that's why he says they're there.

In 2020, Pete Hagset, he wrote a book about the crusades, actually.

He said they were bloody and full of unspeakable tragedy.

But they were justified, he said, because they protected Europe from the spread of Islam.

Yeah, and I think a lot of religious experts would describe Pete Hagset as a Christian nationalist.

And he certainly subscribes to a combative brand of Christianity.

So he is the backdrop, the growing influence of Christianity in the White House is the backdrop to why I was in Oklahoma

where religion, a fundamental part of many people's lives, a heavily Christian state.

And I went to an event which was being held by my name Jackson Laymeyer,

who is a pastor at Sheridan Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

He set up the organisation, pastors for Trump,

which lobbied for him in the run up both to the 2016, 2020 and 2024 election.

In fact, he happens to be running full congress for public office in June.

And what that looks like is helping to keep our borders secure,

removing illegal criminals off of our streets,

making sure that American families can afford to live in America.

And also ensuring that Sharia law never takes root in this nation ever.

That's interesting, Martha, you know, that Jackson Laymeyer announcing his bid to run for congress.

I wonder, did it feel like a religious occasion or a political event when he came up to speak?

I wonder about the merging of church and state.

Yeah, I mean, it really didn't feel like there was much separation there, you know,

where he does his preaching. He was announcing his political bid for office.

And he was actually introduced by the chair of the Oklahoma Republican Party,

a lady named Charity Lynch. And she introduced him by saying,

are you tired of politicians in Washington, DC?

We need more men of God in this place.

And I think what she was getting at is, you know, it's all very transactional in Washington, DC.

And they don't really care about you. They're just, you know, in it for the power and the glory.

But then later on, you know, an hour later, you have the pastor on stage,

quite literally begging for the money of the people in the audience, you know,

and he puts a box up at the front of the stage and encourages everyone to put money in little envelopes

that he'd left there or put checks and come and drop them in this box.

And it felt like one of those charity auctions in a way, you know,

the sort of comedian character stood by the side of him saying,

and if you're married, then you should give $7,000,

because that's what we expect of married couples.

So it was quite a, you know, for a man of God in a house of God,

it felt like a pretty raisin effort to raise money.

So Jackson's Church is about a five minute drive outside of Tulsa,

pretty well attended for one of these sort of local government announcements,

three or 400 people there, many of the members of his congregation.

And a lot of the people there, very America first.

And I think for them, you know, if you just said,

shall we go to war with Iran, you know, a year ago,

they would have said, absolutely not, we're not interested in any more American involvement in foreign wars.

But because they're so dedicated to Donald Trump,

they're willing to overlook that, you know, they view him as this God-like figure.

And in fact, you know, I asked one moment,

do you see Donald Trump as a conduit for God, for God's message?

And she said, yeah, 100% I do.

And so they're all very much behind the war at the moment.

I do believe it is almost an armageddon,

and that the fact that we do have to stand up for what's right and what we believe in.

And they are some awful people over there.

You should support Israel because God loves Israel.

Israel is the apple of his eye, and that is in the Bible.

How do you square off the loss of innocent lives?

It sits perfectly fine as someone whose dad serves in the military.

I can tell you that it's just a cost.

And unfortunately, it's the sad reality, but they did the right thing.

They stood up and they fought for their country, and we can honor that.

And I know that they're sitting with the good Lord right now and in his great races.

Is it a religious war?

Most definitely, most definitely.

God is just like exposing everything,

using trap, using other people in this time to expose the evil.

I wonder, Martha, did you speak to anybody who descended,

anyone who doesn't agree with Trump's military action in Iran?

Everyone was pretty squarely behind what's going on now,

but with one key exception, they said if there were to be American boots on the ground,

that would change how they view things.

That would be a red line for them.

And that was certainly the view of Pastor Lehmaya.

We did an interview with him after he'd made this announcement.

He led us back into his office.

And on the wall of his office, he's got pictures of various members of the Trump family

who have spoken at the church.

They see it as effective for them to go and campaign there.

Eric Trump, Donald Trump Jr's son's been there three times.

Donald Trump Jr has been there at least once.

Rudy Giuliani is actually going to Tulsa on Saturday to campaign for this pastor.

The FBI director, Cash Patel, he's been there.

So, you know, he's a man who has the ear of the Trump family at the moment.

And he said that he would disagree with boots on the ground.

But he views this war in Iran as very much a battle between good America

and evil Iran and other countries in the Middle East.

And I wanted to be careful not to pretend that he represents all Christians

because, of course, he doesn't.

He only represents a minority of Christians in Oklahoma.

And so, we took a drive to the other side of the city

and spoke to a reverend, reverend Andy Campbell

who believes that the Trump administration is weaponizing Christianity

to sell this war to the public.

If I go to war and I claim that God is on my side,

I oppose me, then evidently I must be godless.

And I think that's the point of it.

So, do you think he likes that he's playing on that then?

Oh, absolutely.

He wants to take people that he perceives as enemies

and make them less than human.

Yeah, I do wonder, Martha.

I think many people might look at this and think about Project 2025.

That, of course, is that conservative template

pulled together by a number of people in Trump's orbit.

He distanced himself from it during the campaign.

But, you know, there were people involved then

that are people involved now as part of his administration.

It's a 900-page document, full of ideas about how to run a country,

several of those ideas have become part of how this country

has run now, you know, on immigration, education,

the power of the presidency and so on.

Christian nationalism is very much part of this Project 2025.

The ambition being to impose it as a basis for government

that gives the Bible priority over institutions

with all the implications that would have, you know,

for the United States in terms of gender equality, abortion,

gay rights, etc.

So, when we see, as we do here, prayer, passages of the Bible

underpinning the country going to war, you know,

that does feel like an extension and you wonder where that ends.

Already, the military religious freedom foundation

is saying that it's received more than 200 complaints

from members of the forces about commanders invoking

biblical rhetoric to justify involvement in the action on Iran

and we've seen the likes of active duty, military members,

claiming that their commanders have been urging them to tell the troops

this war is all part of God's divine plan.

Yeah, and I guess you wonder where this is all filtered

down from, whether it comes from the very top.

But these are active duty members of the military.

One of the sort of standout examples was a person who said

that their commander was referencing citations

out of the book of Revelation, talking about the imminent return

of Jesus Christ and the commander supposedly saying

that President Trump had been anointed by Jesus

to light the signal fire in Iran to cause Armageddon

and Mark has returned to earth.

You know, this is a leader in the military,

or at least that's the allegation.

Another example was from an active duty US Army member

who said that in their battalion headquarters

there was a poster displayed that had been left behind

from a previous meeting or whatever of Jesus Christ firing a mortar round.

And this is horrifying for some people.

There's a congressman from California who I spoke to Jared Huffman

and he's calling for a full investigation

by the Department of Defense into these allegations.

These biblical prophecies are being offered up to justify the war.

People are being told that they need to go risk their lives

in order to accelerate Armageddon

and live out these extreme interpretations of scripture.

The Secretary of Defense is making a concerted effort

to God wash this terrible war.

Fascinating stuff, Martha.

You've pulled together a report.

Yeah, where can we see it?

Yeah, we have, you can watch our full report on YouTube

but it's also on all of the Sky News platforms,

on TV, on Instagram, TikTok, etc.

As the day wraps up, get this scoop on what's been happening.

Here's the scoop, a new podcast from NBC News

with Meet Your Host, Gazzmi Bisugin.

We'll take a deep dive into the day's top stories

with NBC News' trusted journalist.

It's a fresh take that's sharp, thoughtful, and it's informative

bringing you closer to the headlines and conversations

that are shaping our world.

From the front page to the zeitgeist,

here's the scoop from NBC News.

Listen daily wherever you get your podcasts.

James, while I've been crisscrossing the country,

you've been taking on for the team.

You've watched the latest Cabinet meeting

in full the highlights.

Can you call them the highlights?

Well, it was lengthy, Martha.

I'll say that.

It wasn't quite the sucking up Olympics.

You normally see, not for the one to have tried, mind you.

I think it was just that not everybody got a chance to speak.

It was significant, I think.

I mean, we have heard talk of a president looking for

an off-ramp on Iran.

And that was very much the tenor of things.

It was interesting to hear from Steve Whitkov,

you know, Trump's negotiator,

the man who typically has the air of a guy

wandering around Starbucks looking for a toilet code.

He came to the table with some certainty today,

confirmed the Americans had presented a 15-point

action list to the Iranians via Pakistan,

the framework for a peace deal, he called it.

He said this had resulted in strong

and positive messaging and talks,

and he used the phrase inflection point.

We will see where things lead,

and if we can convince Iran that this is the inflection point

with no good alternatives for them,

other than more death and destruction.

We have strong signs that this is a possibility,

and if a deal happens,

it will be great for the country of Iran

for the entire region and the world at large.

Other toilets are available in other coffee shops,

but they're also impossible to get into.

Now, Whitkov said they had one last message

for the Iranians, don't miscalculate again.

So I thought that was an interesting characterisation

by the US of where things stand,

you know, a statement of where things are,

at a turning point towards the endgame.

I think that's how they would like to see it,

or be it on their terms.

They want to bring their involvement to a close,

but, you know, they're acutely aware

that the perception of success,

it's as important as success itself, politically, at least.

Trump, he spent some time emphasising

that the Iranians as he put it were begging for a deal.

He's been stung by the suggestion from the Iranians

that they weren't negotiating at all,

that the US was negotiating with itself.

That's not how Trump wants this framed,

and, you know, the president got about potty moat

at one stage, listen to this.

I have a feeling it's really clean up pretty quickly.

I could just say this.

They want to make it, they want to make it.

And I probably heard our little negotiation.

It gives them a little impetus to say,

well, I wish you didn't say that,

but they said yesterday that we weren't negotiating with them,

and now they admit that we weren't negotiating with them.

So they want to make a deal.

The reason they want to make a deal is they have been just beat this shit.

It does feel like they're looking for an off-ramp,

but then at the same time,

they're still amassing forces in the Middle East.

There are a couple of media reports from Israel saying

that sources that journalists,

they're speaking to, still believe that Donald Trump

is intent on a ground invasion of some sort.

But anyway, at least publicly,

he's signalling towards agreements of some description

with Iran.

He said that they were allowing 10 big boats

of oil through the Strait of Hormuz as a gesture of good faith,

a byproduct of these back-channel negotiations.

There was mention, again, of NATO.

Donald Trump called it a paper tiger,

and the cold shoulder towards his old friend, Keir Starmer, continues.

He called him lovely,

but he said that what he'd done was shocking,

which was a reference to the UK,

not letting the Americans use the Diego Garcia base

for its aircraft.

That meant that US pilots had to start their missions

from Missouri back in the US.

Yeah, and Donald Trump was withering about the UK military contribution

dismissed the UK's aircraft carriers as toys.

He did have warmer words though Martha Forking Charles.

He was asked about that.

spoke about him being a friend of mine,

a great gentleman,

and he said,

we're going to have a state dinner.

It's going to be great.

So that's nice.

Did he forget that King Charles is commander in chief of the UK military?

Good point, well-means.

When he was dismissing his little toys.

I'll let you ask that question when the more I arise, Martha.

Anyway, since that cabinet meeting,

the president has delayed his major bombing of Iran's energy plants again.

There's now a 10-day delay which takes us into April.

After talks with the Iranian government had gone very well according to the president.

Yeah, at the White House this week,

though away from matters around this week,

the president,

well, he's been voting in a special election in Palm Beach County,

the same man who on Monday called voting by mail in cheating.

You know, brought to my attention today

that we're the only country that doesn't,

there's mail-in voting.

Mail-in voting means mail-in cheating.

I call it mail-in cheating.

And it's currently pushing through legislation in Congress

to make mail-in voting incredibly difficult.

Well, he voted what else by mail on Tuesday.

I loved when he was asked about this in the press conference bit afterwards

by a female journalist incidentally.

And he said, oh, well, I was away, so I couldn't vote.

And she said, you were in Palm Beach.

You've been in Florida quite a bit over the last few weeks.

And he obviously bristled at that.

And then he ended it by saying,

sure, the question was well-meaning.

He just did not like anything that catches him out.

But mail-in ballots is the president's main fixation

in his fight against voter fraud.

Fraudulent mail-in ballots there.

The votes he believed ticked the election for Biden back in 2020.

Go to that saying, but those claims baseless.

Yeah, the president was casting his vote

in the special Florida State House election.

Now, that's where Democrat Emily Gregory beat the Trump-backed candidate,

John Maples.

That area includes Mar-a-Lago, no less.

So that will now be represented in the Florida House by a Democrat,

which is ironic.

It will also send shivers down the spines of Republicans looking ahead

to the midterm elections this year.

James, you can hear the lapping waves in the background.

Yes.

I mentioned, I'm in Miami, South Beach.

We arrived here a few hours ago ahead of a conference,

which is called the FII Priority Summit,

which is a business and investment conference.

Sounds quite dry, but we're not here to cover the business side of things.

Yeah, I can think of worse places to cover a story, Martha.

I've been to most of them.

Not today, however.

So the FII, it's an organisation set up by the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia,

which is the main sovereign wealth fund.

So a conference effectively run by the Saudis, yeah?

Yeah, it's been going on for a decade now,

and it's been used as a bit of a soft power tool.

And we were speaking to one of the organisers of the event a little earlier,

and he was saying that you can tell what the Saudi government is focused on

interested in by listening to the types of speeches held every year's conference

and some of the topics.

This year include AI drone technology,

how to make Africa an economic success,

the race to protect critical minerals,

and those are all issues that Gulf powers like Saudi Arabia are into at the moment.

You're in pretty exalted company, Martha.

Yeah, Jared Kushner, Steve Whitkov, they're holding sessions at the FII.

There, of course, both Trump's Middle East envoys,

currently working through the business of Iran, Donald Trump Jr.

He's speaking on Friday,

and then, of course, the man himself, Donald Trump's senior on Friday afternoon.

Yeah, that's the star attraction.

This forum presents a pretty golden opportunity for him and his team

to speak to one of their key allies in the Middle East during the war in Iran.

There were reports this week from the New York Times,

among others that said to the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia,

Mohammed bin Salman, NDS,

had been encouraging Donald Trump to continue the war effort in Iran

to see it through until it's completely finished.

What's happening, Martha?

Can't expect me to know what's happening in the ambulance outside the Hamiltonians.

Come on.

I thought it was the cops.

Miami Vice, no.

The Saudis, they see this conflict in Iran as something of a historic opportunity

to reshape the region.

MBS, he wants to see the destruction of a hard line,

unfriendly, Iranian regime.

That's how he sees it.

Which poses a constant threat to his country.

There's only 800 miles separating both.

Miami, over the next couple of days,

I think you're going to see some of the most senior Saudi ministers, Martha.

Yeah, in the same hotel on South Beach as Donald Trump

and his chief Middle East advisors,

plenty of opportunity for geopolitical deal-making conversations on how best

to end the threat of Iran once and for all.

And I suppose they'll be talking money cash.

Yeah, where Donald Trump's involved, that's usually top of the agenda.

But yeah, I'll be here over the next couple of days,

taking the temperature of business leaders, investors,

to lots of oil executives here,

incidentally, obviously the industry under significant pressure

with the closure of the Strait of Whole Moose.

Great stuff, Martha.

And we'll be able to watch your coverage across all Sky News platforms.

You will indeed.

You will indeed, James.

Great stuff.

Thanks very much to you for listening.

And for watching Trump 100 at Sky.uk is the email

as ever do send us your comments and questions.

Yes, please do.

And if anyone's in need of some extra weekend listening,

please also check out our sister podcast electoral dysfunction

because they've got a special episode this week.

Beth Rigby, our political editor,

is interviewing the UK's Prime Minister, Sir Keir Starmer.

I imagine they'll be talking quite a lot about Donald Trump.

I'm assured it's a very interesting listen.

I have been clear I'm not going to join the war.

There's a clear difference, therefore, of opinion

between me and President Trump.

My own view is that a lot of what he said and done

has been to put pressure on me to change my mind.

But I'm not going to do so because I'm the British Prime Minister

and I have to act in the British national interest.

Do you think he underestimated the British national interest?

Do you think he underestimated the British national interest?

Well, I wanted a good relationship.

I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

I still want a good relationship.

And as we work our way through this,

I'm sure that is possible.

But I want to be equally clear.

I'm not going to waver on this.

I'm not going to back down.

Yeah, great stuff. Thanks very much, Martha.

Good luck in Miami, safe trip home.

And we'll see you next week.

See you soon.

As the day wraps up, get this scoop on what's been happening.

With, here's the scoop, a new podcast from NBC News

with me, your host, Gazzle Missougin.

We'll take a deep dive into the day's top stories

with NBC News' trusted journalist.

It's a fresh take that's sharp, thoughtful, and it's informative,

bringing you closer to the headlines and conversations

that are shaping our world.

Page to the zeitgeist.

Here's the scoop from NBC News.

Listen daily wherever you get your podcasts.