Duggar, Fitzsimmons, Spencer: The Legal and Behavioral Breakdown of Three Cases That Don't Have Easy Answers

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wild overthinking, and a guaranteed nervous breakdown,

Lunatic in the Newsroom is for you.

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This is Hidden Killers Live with Tony Rusky and Robin Green.

14-year-old girl gave a forensic interview.

The father made a call and then Joseph Dugger allegedly admitted

to everything to the victim's father,

and then again to detectives.

And now he's sitting in an Arkansas County jail

about seven miles that way from me,

waiting to be extradited to Florida

on felony child S abuse charges.

And his wife is facing her own counts

and a separate but connected investigation in Arkansas.

Two states, two cases, a recorded confession

and a family with a documented pattern

of handling exactly this kind of thing internally,

because that's what you do.

The legal picture here is as complicated as it is damning.

And if anyone can break down what Joseph Dugger's defense

actually looks like from the inside out,

it's a criminal defense attorney

who's seen cases like this from every angle,

Bob Mata, defense attorney, joining myself

and Robin Drake today as we discuss a lot

and we will start with the Dugger situation

and we invite your thoughts, your comments

in the comments section wherever you are watching us

right now.

Let's start here, Bob, Joseph Dugger allegedly admitted

to the abuse to the victim's father

and then to Tony Town detectives

who were on the line reportedly confirmed

during a recorded phone call.

Walk us through, I mean, what a defense attorney

is actually working with when a client

has already made statements like that

before an attorney is anywhere near the picture

of what's going on here.

I mean, what kind of situation are we looking at

for the defense of Joseph Dugger?

A bad one, forget it, I'll just tell you.

Like, all jokes aside, it's the first thing I ask a client

when they walk in or a prospective client that you talk.

Yeah, did you make a statement to law enforcement?

And that's typically where I'm at.

With respect to whether or not it's going to be suppressive.

You know, there's going to be a lot of things

to look at it because that's where you're at.

If there's a statement out there

and it's incredibly damning,

the best that you can hope to do is defense attorneys

look at it and say, all right, well, was it a tap?

Was it an over here?

Did they go and get a warrant in terms of,

you know, the over here that they definitely have.

But the statements with respect to the initial statement

was that, and you've got two states involved, right?

You've got Arkansas and Florida.

I think Florida is their wide open down there.

The sunshine state, you can just do anything

you want down there.

They want everything out in the sunshine.

I think that like Arkansas and you might know,

tone is a one person consent state.

So, you know, I mean, you're going to have to try to attack it

because once you see that it exists in the world,

it becomes probably the worst evidence that they have against you

because it's a confession.

Yeah, the other way to slice it.

I mean, how do you go about going into a case like,

I mean, is this a case that is likely to even go to a trial?

I mean, once you have a confession like that,

or is it, is it some sort of a deal that is made

or is it, let's take this to trial?

And I'm likely to be found guilty,

but I'm going to negotiate this.

I'm going to plead this to be less than than what they're saying.

It is that idea.

I don't know, I mean, where do you,

where does something like this go

when this is our dropping start off point?

This is what I'm always talking about.

And I'm always trying to remind people

that a vast majority of cases do not go to trial.

They can put out, when I have evidence like this,

it's typically, and I know about it on the front end.

So if I ask that question, did you make a statement?

And he's sitting in front of me,

or if I've gone to do a jail visit and he's like, yeah,

I made a statement and then I'm saying,

okay, what would you say?

And then he says, this is what I said.

I said, okay, well, here's what we're going to do.

I have to wait until we get the police reports.

I have to see how they say that this went down.

I need to see if there were warrants involved.

And at that point, if there is a way

that I can bring a viable motion to suppress,

then we can try it.

After that, if that fails,

then we're dealing with a piece of evidence

that's going to be impossible to get over.

And what I'm recommending to you

is that I started having a conversation about a plea.

And ultimately at the end of the day,

the sticking point is always whether or not

somebody wants to go to trial is not the lawyer's choice.

That all we can do is advise them.

We think it's a bad idea.

It could be a trial tax.

If you plead this thing out,

maybe we shave a couple of years off of it,

whatever the case may be.

But I mean, the reality is this thing quickly shifts

into the latter of what you were talking about,

where you're trying to work out a plea deal

and you're trying to see if you can help them in any way

in terms of shaving a bit of time off.

But reality is when the state has that kind of evidence

and it's your own words.

These aren't richer down in confessions.

Right, right.

You did full torture involved here.

Yes, I did it, apparently I did.

This is the guy talking about it.

It's things that only he would know.

So it's a death knelt to any kind of potential trial.

So I'd be stunned if it didn't get pled out,

but I've been stunned before, you know?

And Bob, I'm curious,

how does, if it does at all,

this family's got now a track record

of some really important behavior with Josh beforehand.

Gonna enter into this at any point,

whether it goes a trial

or it's gonna be mitigated out beforehand through a plea deal,

does that look that by anyone?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's looked at probably

by the state, you know?

But in terms of relevance,

if it were to go to trial,

I don't know that it would be relevant in terms of,

because look, it's relevant to us in the real world.

Right, right.

But when you're talking about a trial,

it's gotta be relevant to the case

that's before either the judge or the jury.

And bad behavior of other family members

while it may show a pattern

and that there were issues with this family,

clearly, you know, is relevant again in the real world,

but in terms of this particular case,

unless you're going with some kind of mental defect type

of defaults.

And so actually, to follow on with that,

I've been, as you all know,

I've been binge watching the Duggers,

I've been reading Jill's book

and what's been really, really striking

is the trauma that the other siblings were exposed

to by Josh and now and other.

And I'm curious as a defense attorney,

how challenging is it to work with potential people,

both I guess both prosecution and defense

that a lot of times the siblings are excusing the behavior,

which breaks your heart even more,

their down plan that they're just,

I mean, they are really not wanting

to hurt their brothers in earlier statements.

So I'm curious how hard and challenging that is

to work with as an attorney,

trying to show the true criminality here

when a lot of times the people involved

are trying to say, yeah, he did it,

but it's not criminal.

I don't care.

You know, they just wanted to go away.

Yeah, and that's that thing that we talk about.

It seems like weekly where, you know,

I'm kind of discussing the fact of the matters

that we're dealing with the defendant.

So we're in a unique position that the state

does not have any kind of access to the defendant.

So like we're dealing with it on a more human level

whereas prosecutors are typically looking at it

as a piece of paper, a name on a piece of paper in facts

and we're just plowing through.

Like that's something that we always have to deal with.

Like when I was representing Anthony Garcia,

who, you know, his family came up with the money to hire us

and they're sitting there stunned

that their son has been accused of murdering four people

over five years, like stunned.

Like they had no inkling of knowing

that he was capable of this.

They had no, they couldn't grab their mind around it.

You know, so I mean, every situation obviously is different,

but in terms of like trying to get the family over the hump

is also made more difficult depending on whether or not

you've got a client who's made admissions to you

as the attorney or if you believe that your client

is coming in and they're saying that they didn't do this,

you get the discovery and you're tending to agree

with them based on the lack of evidence.

How do you handle that with the family

other than preparing them for kind of the inevitable thing

which is he's going to be sitting at that defendant's table.

The likelihood is that he's going to get convicted

because juries want to hold somebody accountable

for heinous acts.

So it's a really, it's a challenging aspect of it.

And Robin, like you would kind of aptly brought up,

like I don't know if it was the last time

we were on or the time before, you know,

we have to wear a lot of different hats.

I mean, there is that psychology hat that we have to put on

in terms of how to deal with the family

that you know is going to be resistant to wanting to

assign blame or resistant to accepting the fact

that they've done this thing.

And you know, ultimately at the end of the day

the bottom line is whatever's going on with the family

doesn't affect in any way, shape or form

our representation of our client.

I mean, our duty is to that person and that person alone.

But the reality, again, the reality of the situation is

you're trying to juggle all these different things

when you're handling a case like that.

And it's hard and it's a really,

it's a difficult thing to tangle with

because you've got families that are devastated

or in denial and you're sitting there and you're like,

man, you know, and frankly,

I can't relay what my client is saying to me, you know?

I mean, I've got attorney client privilege

and I explain that to him on the front end.

They're not able to sit in with us

when I'm having an interview with my client

because it breaks privilege, you know?

So it's like you kind of have to keep them in the dark

to a certain extent, but you're trying to prepare them

for the worst if they're depending on where they're at

with it, you know what I mean?

If they're in denial, if they're just like refusing

to be helpful in any way because they just don't want

to hurt that person because they love them

and it's their sibling and you can't detach yourself

from somebody unconditionally loved your entire life

and all of a sudden they've done something horrible

or they're accused of to have done something horrible.

It doesn't make you not love that person anymore.

You know, I mean, it may make you think about them differently,

but still, you know, and it's hard to quantify

what love is and words, it's healing.

You know, we've been trying to do it

since we could put paper to pen to describe what love is,

but yeah, I mean, all of it's challenging

and, you know, this family, man,

it's like hopathy of it in terms of it.

It's just, look, here's what gets me

because if somebody's not aware that they're part

of this IBLP structure, which is a religion

and I put it in air quotes, they basically have a structure

where you don't necessarily report wrongdoing to authorities

on everything.

There we go.

There's if you're watching us on YouTube,

that is a little chart.

They're umbrellas.

There's Christ, which is the church and, you know,

Christ and Bill gothard, you know, they hang out,

and they go to Denny's on the breakfast buffet

and they get the Rudy Tutti fresh and fruity

and then everything's great.

That's wonderful.

And then there's the husband that's underneath God

and Bill gothard.

You know, he's probably going to the eye hop.

He doesn't quite get the Denny's Rudy Tutti fresh and fruity.

But he got the husband and then everybody below the husband,

which is the wife, the children, the victims, everyone.

They all have to go to the husband and then report

and then the husband decides if this is something

that is a, you know, appropriate to report to the authorities.

And we all know in the first round of this horror story

that Jim Bob allegedly decided, you know what,

we're going to kind of hold this one in.

We're going to call this one close to the vest

when the allegations came in from his own daughters

of their son doing things to them

until finally a family friend said, you know what, Jim Bob?

This whole campaign thing that you got going on,

your whole political platform that you're running on,

these things, these virtues that you claim you hold dear

to your heart that come from God himself.

You're kind of going against all that shit

by not turning your son in for doing what he did

to your daughters.

And then it was, okay, maybe we should do something

about that.

You kind of got, it's a different aspect over here

because Jim Bob's, as far as we know,

it's not involved in this conversation,

although who knows, the day is young.

But what we understand is that Joseph here,

this is five years ago they did,

this when the girl was nine.

He was like 25, 26.

He's sitting on a couch with a nine-year-old

several times with a blanket over them,

and then he's doing things with his hands.

And that's all we need to say.

This is what's going on five years ago.

And then the girl finally comes out,

says this admits it tells her to her father.

The father calls Joseph and says,

hey, I hear something happened on the couch with my daughter.

Joseph comes clean.

And then he gets the officer on the line from Arkansas,

and then he comes clean again.

And it's not clear if Joseph was aware of the officer,

if it's on the line, I'm gonna take a wild guess

that the answer is no.

But he did then again say, yes, I did this.

See, that's that over here thing that I'm talking about.

So if you're gonna get it over here,

I mean, we've handled things this way.

Yeah, it does.

But typically if it's a law enforcement over here

and they're using a C.I. and in typically,

it's somebody that's involved with that person

and or a relative of the victim.

You know, most of the times it's a baby mama

or a parent of the child that was abused,

that was in a relationship with that person

because you see it all the time.

You see it with like a boyfriend

that parent relationships where you see abuse happening.

And then there's an outcry.

Sometimes after many times after the relationship

has been terminated for whatever reasons.

And then at that point, they go, they make the outcry.

The kid does and then the parent goes to law enforcement.

They're like, all right, this is what we need to do.

We're gonna go in, we're gonna get a tap warrant

and over here warrant and we're gonna be listening.

So you're not necessarily, it's kind of like

when they'd wire somebody up except be a phone calls.

You know, but it's like you gotta go in.

Obviously they're gonna have the probable cause

to get it in many times.

And the cops are literally sitting there,

like listening, just like.

Sure.

I mean, how much does this complicate it

when you have a family that doesn't believe

in going to police when this sort of stuff happens?

I mean, it's, they're treating it like,

oh, Shucks, you caught me.

I mean, this, I mean, it makes me curious.

I like, I wonder how honest he's gonna be

with his own defense attorney.

You know, when they hold all these things in close

until they're called out on, which seems to be the track record,

that's gotta make things a little bit more complicated

and illegal, but they always, and they hold religion

as the reasoning for their thought process

or their lack of accountability under the law.

How does that, does that play in at all under the law?

They're religion and their belief system of,

well, we handle these things internally

and we don't go to the law even though, you know,

under the law, we have to, but we don't,

because our religion supersedes it.

Yeah, no, that's not how it works.

I didn't think.

Yeah.

And you saw the guardrails, you know,

we talked about guardrails on these things.

And when Tony had the graphic up of the umbrella,

you know, Christ, father, whatever, those are the guardrails.

Nowhere in those guardrails, did you see legal,

legality, state law, federal law?

There was no guardrails.

Yeah, I mean, let me ask you this.

How did it work for Lori Vallow?

Yeah.

We were all just vessels.

They were demons.

They weren't even humans anymore.

And it's like, in that case, in particular,

unlike this woman's bad shit, crazy.

Yeah, you know, I mean, and like the challenge

for the defense in that case is that they don't have

the insanity defense available to defendants in that state.

You can only go in and attack, you know,

kind of the men's rea portion of a statute

by saying, this person could not form the requisite intent

because of a mental defect.

So it's, they have like a semblance of it.

But, you know, like you're not going to be able to lean

on religion if it entails, you know,

being a pedophile or murdering people,

you can't say, well, you know,

that's what our religion calls for.

We keep it all in house.

We deal with it.

We deal with it on our own.

It's also interesting too, you know,

just the difference between values, you know,

small, you know, crazy cult mentality.

And I mean, she had, roughly, their followers, you know,

of people of their minds that they had roughly

five to 10, maybe 15, 20 at their height

until the real crazy came out.

But it's interesting, but with the IBLP,

this is a massive, massive group that has tons of social proof

that's reinforcing itself about how to handle all these situations.

And so, you know, defend, yeah, you're right.

It does not fit within legal guidelines

of anything of what is right or not right.

But I wonder how much they might try to fall back on,

hey, this is the way we handle things.

This is how we, you know, because I mean,

their reform project for Josh was a send them away

to one of the free labor camps that's run by IBLP.

Seriously, it is labor, they got labor camps for kids.

I kind of like science technology in a way.

It's like seorg to a certain,

they're kind of like Scientology light in a lot of ways.

Yeah, but way out there where it's exposed to everyone's,

like you could sign up, go to a website.

You can literally sign up right now

if you want to go to one of their clinics and camps.

I was looking at her right before we came on air.

I saw there's a workshop coming up in April

that made me should take a field trip.

Yes, their videos on authority are really interesting.

Yeah, it's the whole thing is it's a non-starter in terms of the,

I mean, there's a, you know,

the separation of church and state exists for a reason.

Sure.

Not in this case.

You know, I mean, well, maybe not to them,

but to the law it does.

So when that's what matters, yeah,

it's a, it's a really bizarre case.

And it's just, you know, I mean,

how to work out for the Catholic church, you know,

when all that started coming down the pipe with, you know,

the priests and the real issues that they were having

with molesting young boys, you know,

in the same with the boy scouts, you know,

I mean, like all these kind of, you know,

institutions that have existed that really put predators

in a prime position to be able to do what it is

that they most desire doing, you know,

eventually, you hope that the kids are going to,

to finally start out crying and it's going to be made public

because it's like that, that dominion and power

that's held over these kids in terms of,

and then when you add the family dynamic in,

it just makes it all that much more difficult.

It's spreading too.

I mean, I mean, I think this kind of,

this kind of control is bred into them.

I mean, that's why it's so different

from these other cults that start later in life.

I was Tony and I were talking about yesterday.

Right.

This is from birth.

So you don't get over indoctrination

that it is part of who you are from all,

as all the memories they have is just unbelievable.

I mean, you could make the argument

that they don't know any better

because that's all they've ever known.

You could.

I mean, you might be able to actually,

but they did get out there.

I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean,

that actually is an interesting argument.

Still not a defense though.

Right.

It's not ignorance of the laws.

No excuse.

Right.

No.

The other thought to this,

and this is just pure conjecture,

he hasn't been charged with anything else.

This sort of shit never happens in a vacuum.

Does anyone for one second believe

that it just was a while?

He got a wild hair one day.

It was a wall off.

No.

It's a one off.

I'm just gonna get this blanket

and go see it with this nine year old over here.

And I mean, I got some questions.

I want to experiment.

I mean, I don't think that's how this went.

I'm thinking there might be a trend in a track record

and there might be other victims.

Again, hasn't been charged with anything,

but I'm gonna take a wild guess

if we're just gonna base it on reality

and how we know these fuckers work.

There's probably more people.

And they don't even know their victims.

So that's what's so,

and that's the thing.

They don't know their victims

because it's the only life they know.

This is the way it is.

It's the bubble.

Anybody who had interactions with these pieces of shit

with their children needs to be having

some very serious conversations.

The problem with that statement is

most of the time they travel only within their own sect,

within their own cult, within other cult members.

So they, all the cult members,

all the fathers who are right below Goddard and Jesus at Denny's,

they're all ready to be like,

oh, the buck stops here.

We'll handle this internally.

But I would hope to God literally.

It's time to come forward.

And if they do,

and if there's a litany of more people

that come out and have a horror story

against Joseph Dagger, again, not saying there are,

I have no idea.

But if there are,

and they start coming forward,

this is gonna be the worst PR nightmare

the Dagger's have ever seen.

They thought Josh was bad.

Wait till this one comes in.

There's a comfort.

It is, but it goes to what Robin was saying.

The people that you think most about

in those situations are the kids

because they are, they're indoctrinated from birth

and they know no different.

And if you don't,

if you're not educated,

that something is wrong,

because that's the thing that you deal with

and we dealt with in this country forever

until they started educating kids in school about abuse.

And you are not the problem here.

It's the predator problem.

It's not your fault.

That person is doing something

that they shouldn't be doing to you.

And unless the kids are taught that,

they don't know.

They don't know.

The most striking word watching,

the saddest, you know, TV specials

I've been watching on this

and then reading on Jill's book

is the most powerful tool

they use nonstop is shame.

Yeah.

They shame these kids into behaviors.

And the most striking thing about that is,

where else, who else?

What are the kind of horrendous human beings

use that same power of shame?

People that victimize children.

100 percent.

And so it's exactly the same thing.

Or they live, same behavior.

Yeah.

These idiots better think long and hard

before they get on the bandwagon of,

we love all of our children

and we hope everything and get on the band

like they did behind Joshi,

where they were just like, we love them

and then they just kind of go silent.

They better think long and hard about it with this one,

especially if there ends up being

a lot of allegations that start coming up against him

because that's going to, I mean,

they're already on the wrong side of history.

But if they want to get even further deep,

I mean, yeah, go ahead.

Dig in.

Dig on in.

Get dig on in behind Joseph.

That'll work out well and free.

And also why, this is why it's so challenging

because these cultures

inoculate themselves from the outside scrutiny

by marrying internally.

You know, that's why, that's why the father

has to approve the courtship.

He can only court someone that the father approves

who's going to be someone who's already indoctrinated

into the system.

You know, and so, and so when you have that,

that insular, you know, self perpetuating cycle of crazy,

then it's never, nothing ever comes alike

because I was looking at the stats on this.

You know, we talked about yesterday, Tony,

it's like the, the Amish have a lot of similar problems,

a lot of similar problems,

but they actually are so cloistered

that they don't interact with English all that often.

And so it doesn't really come to light.

But when you're looking at the raw numbers

for legal cases, for these types of cases,

they're on par with exactly with each other.

But this group actually interacts more

with the outside world than the Amish do.

And it's not disparaging any of these things.

We're just talking raw numbers.

Yeah, and I mean, to kind of go back to it,

it's not just that shame aspect,

but you know, they're taught,

there's a normalcy thing that they're indoctrinated into

as well that this is normal.

This is how it's supposed to be.

And again, if you're a child and you don't know any better,

how are you supposed to know?

To know if you're being taught.

You see, that's brainwashing.

I mean, it's just about the normalcy of things,

you know, part of the most horrendous thing

that I called my wife and she can't believe

she believes in her when I start watching these things

on TV, right?

And I'm watching one of the videos

of them giving instruction,

one of the church leaders up there giving instruction

on how to properly spank a child on a stage.

He bends the boy over his knee on stage,

shows him how to spank him,

how he's going to love him more from.

And then he didn't give him a big enough hug.

He spanked him some more and said,

now give me a bigger hug.

Yeah.

I don't know how people like to look

at what trauma bonding's called.

I don't know how people watched.

It's not like the Dugger show was ancient history, you know.

This was, this was just a few years,

this was like 10 years ago on TLC.

And it's all of your town Tony,

it's always in your town.

That's what I'm curious about.

It's so many people.

Yeah, come, you'll find, yeah, wait, wait,

tell July, you'll come during the call.

Oh, he is always in your town, man.

There's so many here.

I know.

But the thing is, so many people watch this damn show

and this got their warm and fuzzies out of it.

How does anybody look back at the clips of this show

and not be completely creeped out?

I'm Ruby Frankie.

I mean, it's just actually like Ruby Frankie.

I was creeped out back then watching it.

I don't respect all religions.

I think some need to be called the fuck out.

And this is one of them.

We need to stop respecting everybody that claims

what they're doing is a religion

when it's really just coercive control.

I mean, 100%, but you're never going to be able

to stop it because of the amendment, you know?

But we need to, as a society, not respect it socially.

We need to call this shit out and not be like,

oh, isn't that cute?

You all like to wear skirts and repress your women.

Oh, you have the right to do that.

That's super.

And you do have the right to do it.

I have the right to say your batch of fucking crazy.

And these women, I hope to God get away from you into so

and you will never speak to you for the rest of your life.

And you die in a flaming pit.

But, you know, that's my right to say that too.

But we need to do more of this rather than look at it as,

oh, it's cutesy.

Don't they make nice omelets when you stop at the Amish restaurant

or whatever insert religion that represses human beings here?

You know, it's just, it's sickening.

And I just, I'm so sick of pretending

that there's something moral or godly

or wonderful going on behind the closed doors at note.

None of us see until they're fucking kids.

But T, it's like for every person like that

that thinks that it's just adorable

and look it up to you while there's people like us.

You know it, but there's not enough.

I'm like, this is the only shit I've ever seen.

I know.

People are freaks.

You know, it's a, but, you know, to each his own.

Yeah.

Therein lies the rub, but like ultimately,

the accountability aspect of it.

And it's that thing where you're really

from the law enforcement side of it.

You know, when they're trying to infiltrate,

it's so damn hard.

It's a protective bubble.

It's a boo they allow in.

It's like I've done like, you know, Mike King

with his, you know, who's got his channel profiling evil.

But like when he went in and was able to infiltrate

that particular cult down there,

where they had done essentially the same thing.

You know, they had essentially bought

like an entire neighborhood.

So they were insulated from the outside world.

And it's those kids that are born into it.

Yeah, that you're concerned with more than anything else.

Because consenting adults, you know,

I always sit here and wonder how do people get brain wash

like that?

I'm talking about like doctors and educated people

where I'm always like, nobody's ever brainwashed me.

And it's crazy.

But then you see people on an equal educational level

that are brainwashed into it.

And it's, you know, I mean, obviously,

if the deep, you know, dive deep into what's going on

with that person that puts them in a unique position

to be so susceptible to it, validation.

Yeah, acceptance and validation

is a very, very powerful level of influence over people.

And when you use that acceptance and validation

and you throw some love bombing in there

and you're valued and seen for who you are

and you have any inkling of not having that

in one aspect of your life, I don't care how educated you are.

I don't care how emotionally intelligent you are.

You can be extremely susceptible to it.

I do believe though that when you,

as I was talking to Tony about this, you know,

hard to imagine us like people that really dive deep

and try to understand what's going on here

of not being inoculated against it.

I do think we're inoculated against it

just because we're fascinated by it.

Right.

But yeah, that's what it comes down to.

You know, when groups and organizations offer a path

to calm the chaos in your brain

and they always start out with the high level love bombing

or validation or seeking them except all the things

that are brained, the big four firing when you're getting

and they're not getting it from any other aspect of their lives.

That's when it starts getting rooted

and it starts getting some traction

and then it's the slow build.

It's the grooming into it.

And man, there's so much

and there's going to be a lot more to come on these.

And I hate that case.

I know.

It's going to be the case we're going to be talking about later today.

That's what I like seeing happen to put it.

Yeah.

I've been looking forward to that one, Bob.

Yeah.

Your thoughts and the comments section on Substack and YouTube.

We'd love for you to weigh in and give us your thoughts.

Let's move over to another case that is going on right now.

That's getting a lot of attention.

The trial of Kelsey Fitzsimmons comes down

to one contestant moment and one question.

Which direction was the gun pointed?

The prosecution says she raised her service weapon

and leveled it at a fellow officer's face

and pulled the trigger that attempted to re-rack it

and then she got shot.

The defense says the gun never left her own temple

and that when what the state is calling an assault

is actually a mental health crisis

that nearly ended her life.

A judge, not a jury will decide.

Bob Mata is with us to help break all of this down.

This is a confusing case.

There's a lot of so many moving parts to it.

You have a mental health crisis, emergency going on

still with her in this moment

even though she was cleared

and she got her weapon back.

Clearly she wasn't in a healthy spot yet.

And then the way it was handled as well.

Now, were they following protocol?

Looks like they might have been.

Maybe that protocol needs to be changed.

At the end of the day, nothing here was good

on anybody's part.

Bob, as you walk into this as a defense attorney,

I've been so interested to talk to you about this one.

What's your take and what's going on here in this?

Well, I mean, let's start with the biggest decision

that was made which was bancher jury, right?

So that that question for me,

and we've been covering it on our channel

or Ali's streaming it with a former judge, Massachusetts,

retired judge who's brilliant

and who was very much involved in that area of the law.

And I'm tearing her time on the bench.

So her insight's been invaluable.

But where I was at, you know,

because if you follow the case from the beginning,

the original judge was not friendly to the defense

or to Kelsey Fitzsimmons at all.

She was depending on who you ask, either removed

or she stepped away from the case.

And so Judge Carp was put on.

I looked into him in terms of his background a bit

to kind of see what his track was.

And he's been on both sides.

He was a prosecutor,

but he's also been a defense attorney.

I like to see, I love to see that.

I love to see attorneys that have practiced on both sides

of the aisle because I think it really gives you

a lot of insight that attorneys may not have

if they've just done one or the other.

And ultimately, from the last two pre-trials,

I had landed on the assessment that if I was handling the case,

I would be advising my client in this particular case

where it's going to boil down to nothing more than reasonable

doubt based on a he said and she said story

because there's no body worn cam.

Nobody else was in that room.

He got two people giving two different sides of a story.

I'm always concerned about do juries truly understand

the concept of what beyond a reasonable doubt means.

I don't have that concern with judges.

They know what it is.

And they know to apply it not just globally to one charge.

You have to apply it to each and every element of every charge.

So in this case, when you're talking about an assault,

they've met that burden on that one element,

which is, did he have apprehension of fear

that he was going to be harmed or worse?

As soon as she had a gun in her hand,

no matter where she's pointing it, they've checked that box.

So what it's the intent is where this case lives

in terms of trying to get into what,

because they have to prove it,

the state has to prove it, the Commonwealth,

that it was her intent to cause him to have,

because and that's where this thing lies.

So if her intent was to cause him that apprehension

of fear of injury or death,

then she's guilty, right?

So but end of the day when you have two different stories

in my estimation, and it's a huge risk

because you're going from 12 to one

in terms of having a bench trial.

It's like I often rarely, well,

I rarely go with a bench trial.

And it depends on the judge.

It depends on how familiar I am with the judge.

It depends on the fact patterns.

It depends on whether or not I think there's novel issues

of law that I don't think that a jury might be able

to grasp fully that I really think that they need to

in order for this case to be tried properly.

And in this particular scenario,

I thought it was the right call.

I've seen nothing that changes my mind

in terms of what I've seen in the first day

and a few hours today.

I think it was the right call for them,

but ultimately that's Kelsey Fitzsimmons.

Right.

Not that, I mean, the lawyers just say,

look, we think, and I'm sure that it was braidel

that said, look, I think that this is a bench trial.

You know, I think this is the way we go

because you remove the emotion from it.

Like that is the thing that you're looking for

if you're defense counsel,

you need to get that emotion out of it.

And I'm talking about it all the time

because it has no place in the law.

It just has no place in a courtroom.

And the prosecution is adamant about getting it in

because they don't have the power of it.

It's true.

And Bob, so my question, one of the challenges,

again, I'm curious about your thought on the challenge

that I would think was a challenge in this.

At least in the FBI, and I know every department's different,

the deadly force policy is pretty liberal.

When it comes to all it has to be is perceived threat

of violence to yourself or someone else

on body of the injury or death

and deadly force is authorized.

How will defense get by that?

Because all it has to come down to is

that one officer's perception, again, you show a gun

and you said it right at the beginning,

you show a weapon, it doesn't matter

what she says is in her mind or her intent.

All it matters is, at least from my understanding,

that's why I'm curious, from your perspective,

what that officer thought it looked like.

So I'm only worried about that if Newton's my client.

Right, right.

Like honestly, like what you're talking about

whatever his intent is, because two things can be true.

His perception could be true and what.

But wouldn't they automatically side

then with prosecution?

Because it comes dumb, it does come down exactly

that he said, she said perception wise, but doesn't it?

Oh, but doesn't.

No, but what I'm saying is, no,

what you're talking about is a case against Newton.

What his perception is and whether or not

it was a good and lawful shooting is irrelevant.

Like that's not what's at issue here.

What's really at issue is what she did with the weapon

because under what you're talking about,

if she never aimed at it, if she aimed at him

and the judge has convinced me on a reusable doubt

that she did, she's guilty.

It's that simple, if he's not convinced

and it's somewhere where it's a reasonable doubt,

maybe she just, because you can't use deadly force

with somebody who's going to kill themselves.

Well, if you're protecting somebody else

or yourself, one thing, you can't shoot and kill somebody

if they're otherwise like, what are you worried about?

Like you're saying, well, kill yourself,

but I'm going to kill you for you.

It's that death, like op, you know, suicide by cop.

Yeah, that's what that's what that's all about.

Which made me, too.

And if Kelsey's crew is saying flat out,

she never aimed at him, then they have nothing to argue.

They can't argue.

They can't go down the postpartum road.

They can't go down like she wasn't

in the right mental state.

They can't go down any of that because she didn't do it

according to them.

She never aimed it at him.

So that's, I mean, are they, pardon the pun,

are they shooting themselves in the foot a little bit

by using that story, by going with that story

and saying that she never aimed it,

would you have more lateral move here

or even more of a positive move?

If you were to say, yeah, she did, but look,

she was not in her right mind.

This is nothing she would have ever, you know,

it was horrible.

Couldn't, I mean, it's to five year, you know,

sentence if she gets it.

And she's rationalizable and she would probably edit anyway,

but like, is it, but if you're saying she just didn't do it

and they're saying she did, I mean, these officers

wouldn't necessarily go and there's one to shoot her.

I mean, it's definitely not.

It's just, but again, you're making that judgment

call in those split seconds.

If there's a gun,

and it's, let's say she didn't aim at him,

but let's say she pulled, let's say other scenario her,

she pulled the trigger and it didn't fire at her head.

And then she goes back down and she's tapping the gun

and she's trying to rack the gun

and trying to get it to load again in that second.

That gun can go back up, but it can go straight at you

and it can go straight at her.

You don't know where the hell it's gonna go.

As the officer, you then have to make that call

on that moment and I'm not saying why you're wrong,

but that's what would have happened

if essentially,

but you guys are mixing it up,

like Nunez is not on trial.

I know, I can't do it.

I'm not on trial.

What I'm saying is the scenario is you keep giving me

only matter if Nunez on trial.

Right.

But what this, what only matters here

is whether or not Chelsea's intent was to cause

that apprehension, the judge has to determine, basically,

are you lying?

Did you aim it or did you not?

And if you aim it, you're going to jail.

You're guilty.

It's that simple.

If the judge finds Nunez to be credible,

but he can find Nunez to be credible,

because again, everything's about perception.

Like in terms of all perceptions to be right.

Exactly.

So he is acquitted.

You know, the one thing that I worry about

with the bench trial is, look,

I mean, in Massachusetts, they are appointed

and I think they're appointed for life.

You're not elected in that state,

but it's still a political office.

And if you've got politicians that are concerned

about a massive lawsuit coming down the pike,

you do worry about a bench trial wherein you've got a judge

who doesn't necessarily want to say out loud

in terms of an opinion or rendering a verdict in that case.

Well, yeah, I think this cop is a big fat liar

because that's opening the state in the jurisdiction

and that county up to lawsuit and liability

in that lawsuit.

So that's one thing that I'm thinking about

as a defense attorney with going with the bench trial.

But in terms of that thing that we were talking about,

T, you know, because what you're talking about

is a mental defect type thing.

Like, well, because that makes it a much more difficult case.

You know what he does?

Because I mean, without question,

it was diagnosed postpartum.

She had been cleared.

She was supposed to be going back to work on the third

or the fourth.

So she was theoretically in a good place.

I mean, like, you know, under the paperwork she was.

Obviously, she wasn't.

Yeah.

Well, I don't know what it is.

Like, here's, I'm going to give you my typical pushback

on that.

So as far as whether she was or she wasn't,

we're talking about an ex parte restraining order.

Okay, base, which means that he goes in,

Justin goes in on his own.

And we don't know, Jack, shit about him.

Like, and not what I know is that he was placed

on administrative leave because he was caught

on the security camera of that house

more than 200 times in the backyard,

smoking weed and getting high.

So like, I mean, we just, again,

we know very little about what was going on

with these two folks.

What I can tell you from, just forget about defense attorney,

but just an attorney in general that has done plenty

of not only criminal defense work,

but plenty of divorce and custody work.

And believe me when I tell you that restraining orders,

temporary restraining orders are used as an absolute weapon

in custody fights.

Sure.

Without a doubt, we get people out of residences.

If they are, they happen to be married

and they have joint ownership.

And also to get the upper hand on the custody,

meaning that that person has been given temporary custody

of the children or the child prior to the thing

being litigated and it gives you an upper hand.

So it is used all the time as a sword.

It's not the intent of what that statute was.

What you have here is a guy who has a mother,

who is a very interested grandmother,

who is a grandmother, who is a grandmother

who would very much like to have her grand,

her grand baby with her all the time

who is orchestrating shit in the background.

And I'm not guessing on this.

I've seen the emails or the text messages

rather from Justin's mother to this lieutenant

with the police department over there in North and over.

And these are very personal type of messages

and it's all relating to them helping them out.

Hey, can you send a car by all planting the seeds

that Kelsey's batshit crazy?

Like all the little text messages,

oh yeah, we heard that they're in town.

We're worried they're gonna come over.

Like all of which has never been substantiated

because there's been not one shred of evidence

that she ever in any way she performed abused,

tried to abuse in any way that baby.

Like so that doesn't exist in the world as a reality.

It's a guy saying it in his words,

Carrie, whatever will you assign to them.

So you have this thing going on

where he goes in, goes in, gets an X part A,

which means she's not there.

She doesn't, she's not aware that it's going on.

She's at home with her four month old baby

and all of a sudden she gets a knock at the door.

Okay, she doesn't get any forewarning

and she's got her department standing there saying,

hey, we gotta serve this RO on you.

We have to take all your weapons,

but more importantly, we've got to take your infant son.

And Justin has temporary custody of him through this.

You'll have your day in court.

You know, you can go to the hearing,

you can disprove what he was saying.

But here's where the problem lies with this case.

And I don't know if you guys are aware of it.

For some God forsaken reason,

in a situation where you have a restraining order

that is being served on somebody

and removal is an aspect.

And I'm talking about removal of children from that house.

That is one of, in talking about the fallity,

like a situation becoming lethal.

Robin, do you do what you do?

You know what I was doing.

Yeah, go look into it and see the number of lethal situations

that arise out of specifically removal type situations

where somebody's come and try to take somebody's kid.

Sure.

So not only do you have that going through,

you have the fact that law enforcement is told by Justin,

and this isn't even in the petition, he just says it.

He says, oh, I'm worried she's gonna kill the baby.

With no substantiation behind it at all,

what that's planted in the seed

or into the minds of law enforcement,

heading over that day.

Like they're talking about having to do a,

you know, a section or out to a 5150,

like they got a polar emca, she's off a rocker.

You know, and it's all based on an X part A hearing

where again, nothing was challenged.

Anybody can go into court.

It's never the hell you want.

And if the judge who is not getting any resistance

or what you're putting on there,

the judge can say, well, yeah,

I'm gonna air on the side of caution and I'm gonna granted.

And then, you know, you get that hearing set up.

So not only does that happen,

but what they decide to do,

which is inexplicable to me,

is they tell that dude to come to the house to get the baby.

So I need you to understand it.

So she upstairs, and then she's told that Justin and his sister

are there to collect the baby.

That is not how that works.

That is not.

20 to 40% Bob studies domestic violence custody removal case

show that 20 to 40% involve some level resistance

threats and physical confrontation

when law enforcement shows up.

Yeah, I percentage.

And then you're creating this devolatile environment

and like not, like they're gonna walk

and be like, I'll just give us a kid.

Okay, see you later.

Right.

It's not how that is.

Like you're going into,

and someone who we already know

is having some rough mental times.

And this could have been hand again.

Yeah, there's so many ways this could have been handled better.

I mean, I don't want I don't want you to undervalue the point

that they brought in the guy who went in

next part day who was taking ripping her child away from her.

I'm not.

And shit, he said, and they're introducing him to that scene.

So like, I don't think we're here having this trial.

If she is not told that, yeah,

Justin's in the house and he's grabbing that.

Like, I think that put her on the top.

There is no way that guy should have been there.

Sure.

It should have been a social worker who wasn't in the house.

If they're concerned about,

and if they're talking about sectioning her,

that tells you what their mindset is going in.

You're trying to delve into the mindset of these cops

and are they on high alert,

walking into that house?

And we know the answer.

We know the answer is yes,

because of the information they've been provided.

So that factors in in terms of noonins perception.

Like who is walking into that house?

Having been told certain things,

whether true or not matters not to him

in terms of this is where I'm mentally,

this girl from what I'm hearing

could pop off at any second.

So he's on super, super high alert.

And then when you introduce the fact that the very person

that has made this happen,

who is responsible for her,

having her baby ripped away from her at four months old,

is in the house,

along with his sister,

at that point, man,

it's hard to say what would be going through

a normal person's mind.

But from where we're at,

everything was right with the world.

I am the last person that I have four kids.

My wife has had four babies.

She was fortunate not to have postpartum depression,

but that's a real thing.

No, that's it.

I've lived it.

No one to blame.

Like that's not Charleston's fault

that she was feeling.

No, not at all.

No.

But that reality is she got over it.

She was over the hump.

And where she's sitting on June 30th is that she's excited.

She's got her baby.

She's going back to work.

And then all of a sudden,

Justin had decided for whatever reason,

based on whatever, again,

we have no idea what was going on in that relationship.

He uses this, you know,

this kind of this bachelor party where he's got a drinking issue.

Like he's like,

he's not a clean hands guy in this.

Like let's not try to make Justin like neither one,

these are just people.

Yeah.

And like all of us,

they all have issues.

So like, like this again,

it's not a story.

It's not a movie.

This is real damaged people who have their own issues,

whether it be alcohol, drugs, combination of both.

It is what it is.

And you know, it was just,

it could have been avoided if it had been properly handled.

And the really the blame falls on the North and over police department

in terms of because they did not follow procedure.

I assure you, bringing a civilian into that scene

when they're serving it in a removal case

is not standard operating procedure.

It's not and to make it even worse,

it's the very guy who's getting the cost to,

I mean, like the concept of it isn't same, you know.

But did she point the weapon that,

I mean, at the end of the day,

that comes down to that.

That's what it all goes back to.

All of the minutiae, it's there,

but did she do that?

And that's the question.

And how's the judge aside that?

That's curious.

Yeah.

To me, like so,

I was just saying it before I jumped on your stream,

this entire thing is going to,

if I'm going to win that case on defense,

I'm bringing in a mental health expert,

but specifically somebody dealing with memory

and trauma responses to memory and how it was,

like, you cannot, in any way, shape or form,

be able to clearly remember something

in a high trauma situation.

Because again, your perception,

what you were thinking going into it,

all of that, do you have a motive to lie

if you're a cop and you're worried about it

being ruled a bad shooting,

you're going to be aware of that very, very, very soon after.

If not going into it as soon as you pull the trigger,

you'll be like, oh, shit, you know,

it's all like, he's got a motive to lie.

I mean, she's got a motive to lie.

They all do.

Yeah, I mean, that's where it's like,

let's ask another human to tell us what reality was

and we have no way of ever truly confirming it either way.

Yeah, so I've been a memory expert on it

because that it just creates a reasonable doubt

where you can trust either of their memories.

No.

What they thought because it's their perceptions

and it's done a three second, four second interaction

where they shut them down.

It's a tough case, man.

It's a tough case.

Your thoughts in the comment section

and sub-stack in YouTube, we'd love for you to weigh in,

do drop them right there.

The links are in the description.

One more case I want to get to today.

A trial date is finally on the calendar, June 22nd.

After months of delays, a judge removed

and a primary election that turned this case

into an national story, the clock is now running for real.

The next 90 days, you'll determine whether Aaron Spencer

walks into a general election as a candidate

or walks into a courtroom as a convicted felon.

The public thinks it knows the story.

The prosecution says it does it.

And less than three months, Jerry and Arkansas

is going to decide which version is right.

One father, one dead predator,

and a system that's being asked to explain itself.

Bob Mata is with myself at Rob and Drake

to help break all of this down.

We got our dates, the 22nd.

There's been a lot of arguments.

Should this stay here?

Should it move somewhere else?

We have a new judge that thankfully is on this case.

It's not the same one that let the offender out to begin with.

Where do you think we're standing here?

Now that there's been a little breathing room

between where we thought the trial was going to start

to where we're sitting right now

with a date of June 22nd.

I think there's still, so what happened in the interim?

Let me jump back.

They had the primaries in your neck of the woods

and Aaron Spencer was running.

And he won the primary.

I guess the only person he's going up against

during the general election in November is an independent.

So I think there's a hope within the Spencer camp

that the state's going to think better of this

and decide not to try it.

I keep trying to tell the family

I'm like, I just don't want you to kind of like,

that's probably not going to happen.

This thing's going to trial.

They're too bugging, which is unfortunate.

You know, it's sad that it's that way

because it's not a case that I think needs to be tried.

And I think if you were to poll the public at large down there,

they would agree.

Like massively, it would be a land type situation.

So I mean, this allows the attorneys to go ahead

and say, you know what, we're going to have the new judge

reconsider a bunch of the rulings that was made

that were made by the prior judge

because we think that she got them wrong.

And I mean, it gives them that opportunity

to really kind of dig in a bit more

with some of the decisions that,

which is the one advantage of getting a new judge.

Because you have the option to be able to say,

we're basically asking you to relitigate these,

not even reconsider what that judge did.

We want you to form your own opinion on it.

And typically the judges will do it.

So this is on the time to do that.

Whether or not they're going to do it is unknown yet.

We'll find out when they file things.

I certainly would be trying to do it, especially

with the law stash board cam video,

which is inexplicable to me.

Maybe like the entire event theoretically was recorded

and somehow got lost by law enforcement.

And we're talking about that the predator had a dash cam

in his vehicle, which in theory would have caught

all of it on tape.

When can they start?

I mean, we have so many damn cases like this bomb

where it's like, oh, they lost it.

And that's just kind of where it ends.

There's no, those things should almost be litigated.

Really? You lost it?

Then let's go figure out how you lost it.

Let's go take a look at the timestamps

of where this was deleted and why and how.

And let's just see how much of an accident it was.

I mean, if they're started, I mean, what needs to be done?

So this isn't such an easy lever for law enforcement to pull.

Does it need to be like literally on the books of like,

look, if this material is gone or destroyed or deleted,

there will be a criminal investigation

into that specific act of doing that with that slow people down

from doing it because there would be really clear paths

to busting people for destroying evidence.

I don't know what needs to be done here

because clearly this happens all the time.

And it doesn't seem like it's that far of a puddle

to jump over for law enforcement

because they use this lever a lot to avoid accountability.

Yeah, man, here's where the problem is

is that the burden is on the defense to prove it.

Yeah, like it can't like, because it's easy for the cops

to come in and say, oh, it was accidentally erased.

It should be other chart like totally separate from the case.

It's just like, oh, this was deleted.

Well, that's illegal to have that deleted or to be lost.

So yeah, it becomes a very slippery slope.

You know what I mean?

So all I can do on this, you know, accidentally we did,

like, I mean, well, I mean, I and there probably are cases

where they could look, okay, yes, this was truly it.

There will inevitably be truly accidental deletions.

But if we make it far more important,

like, you just, you don't do this, really be careful.

Don't fuck with this material

because if something happens,

if whatever happens and it's gone,

you could go to prison for that.

I mean, there's other things we have in our world

where it's like, if you screw with this,

that could be very bad.

So we take a lot of extra precaution

not to let something bad happen with this over here.

But with this sort of stuff, it's kind of like,

nah!

So here's your reality of how these things typically work,

is that until you're actually called on the carpet

because something went sideways,

you're not gonna fix a broken system.

And so, I mean, just think about the number

of law enforcement agencies out there

that have had to have one, you had to get funded for body cams,

then you have to maintain body cams,

you have to train the officers to remember to turn

on the body cams and then keep it.

So what happens is that people get lax,

they get lazy because they go out on hundreds of calls a day

or a week, and then the one time they needed it,

they didn't have the reps they needed

because the training faltered, the equipment was faltering,

so the reality is, is until it becomes an issue,

it won't become an issue.

And so, unfortunately, that's the way it happens

a lot of time.

And sometimes it's, you know, bad actors,

and sometimes it's just, you know,

incompetence.

Yeah, incompetence, right.

In the system.

I always, I tend to edge more on having been in the system.

I tend to edge more on the incompetence in the system.

A lot more than, than bad actors on the inside.

Because believe me, these cops,

cops don't want shit to go sideways

because it'll end their careers

and they got to provide for families.

And they know 100% if they're involved in a case like this

and they don't have the body cam,

the first thing they're saying to himself is not,

oh, thank God I don't have the body cam,

they're saying, oh shit, I don't have the body cam.

So that's generally the way it goes.

Yeah, and I think, you know,

I think the counter to that would be,

you know, it's an incredibly dangerous job.

And I think that everybody would agree that they're,

for the amount of danger that they're really exposed to,

they're grossly underpaid,

which always leads to that thing where, you know,

if they're going, they're doing a drug raid

and you've got two partners running into that back closet

and they find a giant pile of cash

and they're looking at one of them and they're like,

we're making fucking 60 grand a year

and we're like, we could get killed any day

we step foot onto the streets with this uniform on.

Well, I'm gonna give you 10 large

and I'm gonna take you out.

So I mean, because of the structure

in terms of how we compensate these people

that are doing this incredibly dangerous job,

it almost encourages them,

yeah, maybe step over the line a bit

which becomes a very, very slippery slope.

It could start with, all right, you know,

like no one knows how much cash is in here.

No one's gonna know 20 grand's missing

if we each take a stack and shove it in our vest.

So, you know, you're still getting a big pile.

It'll all go to the state and they can use it to buy boats

and whatever the fuck they're gonna do with it.

Or, but that problem becomes,

is once you become corrupt with that one little taste,

it then becomes a very, very slippery slope.

And it also, like the concept of like,

I need to rise up in the ranks,

which is typically going to be determined

by the amount of closed cases you get,

can also encourage, you know what?

Like, I'm just gonna go ahead and drop this key fob here,

like in the Avery thing.

Like, I don't know where I'm out on Avery.

Like, do I think that the cops did that whole thing

and put, no, I don't.

But do I think that in order to make sure

that they got the conviction on the guy

that they were sure had done it?

Do I think that they dropped that fucking key fob?

Yes, I do.

You know what I'm saying?

But they had all kinds of other evidence,

but that is like the kind of evidence

where, okay, you had four searches in that house

and nobody saw it and then all of a sudden it appears.

You know, it's strange.

So, I think the answer to Tony's question

is as much like in the world of suppression motions,

there has to be greater teeth.

And they've got to work on that burden on the defense

because how am I supposed to prove intent

from a law enforcement agency

where I have zero access to what they're doing?

If you're asking for an impossible burden

to be able to hurtle because I don't have access,

I'm like, okay, judge, I'll happily.

Are you gonna allow me to go in?

Can I subpoena all their shit

and dig through all their shit?

And then I'll find it for you

because short of that,

how do you expect me to prove bad intent?

You're asking them to police themselves, then, too.

Like, well, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean,

it's just, there just seems to be far too easy ways

to cheat if one wants to get to work.

That's the only way you gotta make teeth.

You gotta make teeth to work.

All right, you know what, you lost it.

Now you lost the case.

I lived in a glass bubble.

I was just surrounded by good people.

I really was.

You know, I went to work every day

to do the righteous work

and I had to get around bosses that were stupid.

I had to get around the organization

that was fixated on getting promoted in agendas.

You know, but I was fortunate.

I know there's, I did a lot of training

with a lot of law enforcement across the country

where I train them on leadership and things like that.

So I'm, I'm generally the glasses half full.

I know there's bad apples and bad actors out there,

but I do see an amazing amount

that actually are doing the right thing

that they're not going to see that pile of cash

and go for it.

Hunter, I think that's the majority.

And yeah, it is because, and not even be tempted by it.

I mean, you know, it's like when you see someone go bad,

and they, and they, and they see themselves

a wound collecting victim in all these situations.

And they're saying, I did it because I don't get paid enough

or they're using some rationalization excuse to be an ass.

You know, the only thing I say is,

well then quit, get another job, you know,

because the people that serve join to serve,

they're not joining to take.

So as it is, that's what happens.

Like you were a fat dude.

You know what I mean?

Like you're, you're, that's a different thing

than kind of a low level.

I mean, you know what I'm saying?

Like, I mean, you get all types.

You know, it's like your, your education level is such

where I love, I love everybody like Rob and Drake

becoming law enforcement because you're the guy

one in there.

You're the guy because inherently you're a good person

you went in with, because I, I don't think that people

get into law enforcement thinking like,

oh, I'm going to go rob drug dealers.

I don't, it's not, it is not a profitable, you know,

thing that you're going to do for life.

It's a dangerous gambit.

I'm talking about it.

Right.

So like, but I, I think that what happens,

like, well, let me put this ponderable to you, Rob.

And so I ponderable, say you've got a case

where you are 100% absolutely certain

that you've got the right guy.

However, you're missing that one piece of evidence

that one piece of evidence that a lot, and you are certain of it.

There is, it's unequivocal.

You know that you've got the guy, but you're missing

that one piece of evidence that allows you to get in front

of a judge and get an arrest warrant.

And that, and that temptation in terms of,

because you're theoretically morality wise,

you're doing the right thing,

because you're taking a monster off the street.

I uncovered it in a gasey.

That's what happened in gasey.

They knew that gasey had kidnapped Rob Peast

and most likely killed him, but they knew that he kidnapped him.

It had to have been, and it was the last person

to see the kid alive.

And the kid is vanish off the face of the earth.

And he's not a kid that was, you know,

running off to California.

His mother was adamant about that.

So they knew, but they couldn't,

they had the first search of the house.

They couldn't find anything related to Rob Peast.

They followed him for 10 days.

Gasey's not a moron.

He's not going to kill one.

Because it was an open and notorious tale,

because they didn't have the manpower

to do a serabititious tale.

So he knows that they're following.

I was like, he's not going to kill anybody while they're following.

So they don't get anything.

I'm an in 10 days.

In the meantime, Gasey runs into federal court files

for a temporary restraining order to stop the 24-7 tail,

which he was going to win,

because they had been on, and they had searched his house once,

and they'd been following him for 10 days,

and they didn't get, the federal courts

are going to let you follow somebody in perpetuity

the way that they were.

You know, like where it's open and obvious,

and they're following him into restaurants,

and they're coming into his house.

So they were going to end it.

So they were put in this situation

where, for all intents and purposes,

that investigation was going to end, right?

Then and there, as soon as the judge,

at the federal judge, granted that TRO,

which created a desperate times call

for desperate measures situation,

which is how that receipt becomes infused

as if it was found in his house,

in order to get the second warrant,

which is what they got,

and then they went in, and they found the bodies.

So like, but that's that's that scenario

that I'm talking about,

where you just know that you've got the guy,

but you just don't have the evidence to get in the warrant.

And so here's where I know,

and I guarantee that's where the worry is,

but here's where I'm gonna give the class half full

on what guys like me doing those situations.

One, get better.

You know, you own it,

and you just dig deeper to stay on the righteous path,

because here's what good, healthy, minded people do.

You play that shit forward.

You play forward, you know, let's suppose,

we take that action.

When you do something wrong,

when you have a lack of transparency and openness,

and abiding by the law, it will be found out.

You know, just if you're looking to percentages,

it's gonna be found out at some point.

And what's gonna happen when that happens?

You're destroyed, the case is destroyed,

and the guy's gonna walk.

So why do it?

Yeah, I mean, so either way,

the guy will eventually walk,

either it's by your hand,

or you see what I mean?

So the clear might of people,

but that's why, but that's why you didn't catch that.

It took 45 years for me to uncover it.

It came from the cops.

I know what I mean.

So in that situation,

it was literally what the cops said.

Mike Albrecht is like,

eh, you know, because I asked him,

like there has to be something

that you've never told anybody

in all the interviews you've done.

Well, you know, he's like, there's one thing.

He's like, you know, that photo receipt,

I'm like, yes, I know that photo receipt.

And then he tells me the story that it really wasn't found

in the house that the lieutenant said that the story

was going to be that they founded on the garbage pull

from the curb, which is fair game.

You don't need a warrant for that.

Like once it hits the curb, anybody can dig into it.

It's still strong evidence.

It is strong as, you know,

hey, we found it in the inside garbage

in terms of like, it's clear that the kid was in here

because the receipt from the, you know,

from the pharmacy that was in the kid's pocket

is in his house and it can only have gotten there

if Rob Peast was there.

That's powerful evidence.

It's still powerful.

So I told Mike, I'm like, look, man,

and Mike, what he said is,

Gacy's dead.

I don't have to worry about an appeal.

So like he would, but they did in that case

is Cosen's Act kept it very, very narrow.

He kept it very, very small amount of people that knew it.

It was Cosen's Act and I think it was Ron Adams

is right, man, the guy's on the street

that we're out doing the work, pounding the pavement,

knocking on doors, talking to witnesses.

They had no idea, you know what I mean?

And so he insulated them from what was going on with it.

But like when I broke it,

I'm like, how do I handle this?

Because it's the greatest morality play

in the history of morality.

And it's great.

It's a grave in yet.

Yeah, it's a fucking monster.

It's like, it's a question.

You know, if you had the opportunity to kill Hitler

knowing what we know, now,

would you do it back there?

So in cases like this,

you know, it comes down to, you know,

first of all, you have people,

you don't have to have 100% of organization

with the righteous mindset.

You only need is one in a leadership position

to be able to keep poking people in the righteousness

because people want to do the right thing.

But then we tempted to do the convenient and easy thing

for a righteous reason.

In situations like that,

you know, we had an expression in the Marine Corps.

If you're going to play, you got to pay.

And so, you know, if you're going to put yourself

on the line to do something like that,

even know you think it's righteous,

do just stand up and be ready.

Because when that shit comes down on you,

you got to own it.

And you might be going jail with them.

And that's how I sold it at the end of the day,

because it was a cautionary tale.

Because I had a punkle on who was the lead prosecutor.

And his reality has had my father

asked one question during this oppression motion,

which was, who was the evidence tech

that was following you around the day of the first search?

Because I hunted that guy down 45 years later,

found him in Colorado.

He did not work with the display police.

He was Cook County Sheriff's Office.

And he was the evidence tech that they supplied to them

because they didn't have a big enough department.

So that guy, no one ever spoke to,

no one ever saw their reports.

And when I asked him, I'm like, look,

you were the guy following them around,

taking the pictures, keeping the evidence log.

If I'm looking at the evidence log

from that day to that search

and this photo receipts not there,

what does that mean?

It means it wasn't there.

Because I would have photographed it

and I would have noted it

and I would have said where we were sending it off to.

And so I knew at that point,

and then it becomes that thing had my father asked.

And he had discovered who that guy was.

That entire case falls apart.

Everything is free to the poisonous stream,

including the confessions that Casey gave.

All of it goes away.

And then Bill Conkel is charged

with the most horrific task I can think of,

which is to go to these families

and say the guys walk and because we're fucked up.

You know, like so that thing that you're talking about, Rob,

and like you need that person in that position,

letting the guys in the gals know

that are working on the force,

that this is the possible ramifications

if you're so tempted to do so.

It's stuck away from it, don't do it.

Because with Casey, they could have just followed him.

And then you got to live with that

at the rest of your life, too.

You know, it's so much easier.

I've made similar calls not to that kind of extent

where I play that tape forward.

I can have this win for this righteous reason.

And I now have the burden of carrying that

for the rest of my life.

As opposed to, I don't do it.

I stick on the righteous rightful path

of doing what's right.

And then I just have to carry the burden of I screwed up.

Yeah.

I can get over, I screwed up a lot easier

because I can then get better tools.

I can own it, I can move on.

I can teach others not to do that.

I mean, so yeah, it's, it's,

I think the other part of it too, Rob,

and is that what I would like to see,

is I'm very close friends with the old Chicago,

retired Chicago cop who, you know,

I met through the Gacy season,

who was like, you know,

Bill Dorsch is a guy that,

that ultimately was chased out of this country

by Chicago PD because he was a whistleblower.

Yeah.

And I think that that cops have to feel like,

if I see wrong happening,

if I see illegal things happening within my department,

I can't be afraid to go to my superiors

and rat that guy out for fear of my career or worse.

Yeah.

And like, if you can establish,

I mean, no one wants rats,

but no one wants bad cops

because the problem with one bad apple

in a, in a particular department is it spoils the whole bunch.

Yeah, in terms of the public's perception of apartment, man,

where you could have like 50 great cops and two,

two assholes in the entire department is tainted

because of those two guys.

So I think like,

like, and I don't know how you go about that.

I don't know that you'd know way better than I,

the mechanics of like giving officers the freedom to say,

hey, man, you know.

Talk down.

It is 100% leadership, 100% that type.

You gotta, you gotta be able to encourage that relationship

where we actually have that kind of transparency.

And then trust is built on little things, you know,

whatever you think politically of Rudy Giuliani afterwards,

but when he was actually mayor of New York,

he actually conquered the crime in New York by,

by trying to take the squeegee guys off the street

because when you actually attack things at the granular level,

it filters up then that,

hey, if they're gonna pay attention to something

that's so small,

I can count on them for the big things.

And so you build that trust,

you build that trust reservoir

at that small granular level saying,

I got your back on this,

I got your back on this,

I got your back on this.

And then encourage that kind of transparency

interagency wise, you know, internally.

So that way you can mitigate shit

before it reaches that level.

And also when you're doing that,

people value the things they're doing every day,

they're gonna do things the right way, the proper way.

So the chance of something going sideways,

investigation's going wrong,

where they'd be in the position to try to cheat the system

a little bit, doesn't even come up.

That's why it's leadership, leadership, leadership.

100% man.

Mandal bomb, Mandal bomb, Mandal bomb.

You think you can take me?

I can take, oh, oh.

You're all pops.

All right, that's gonna,

I just watched that one the other day.

Signed file if you're playing along at home.

You're great, mom.

All right, that's gonna wrap up this episode

of the program, your thoughts in the comments section

on Substack and YouTube, we'd love for you to weigh in.

Be sure to press subscribe wherever you're getting podcasts.

You don't miss any of our episodes.

Go check out Bob's podcast,

Defense Diaries and YouTube channel wherever you get podcasts

or YouTube, which happens to be YouTube.

So go find them there.

Robins a new book, is that right now?

It's not all about me.

It is available wherever you get books go

and get that right now as well.

I'm sorry.

Until next time for Robyn, for Bob, for Todd,

I'm Tony Bursky, we will talk again real soon.

Want more on this case and others?

Then press subscribe now

and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage

from Tony Bursky and the Hidden Killers podcast.

Tyler Reddick here from 2311 Racing.

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