Duggar: Two Arrests, Two States, One Family System Finally Running Out of Room

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This is the Big Breakdown. A long look back at some of the biggest stories we're covering for you

with the Hidden Killers podcast and true crime today. This is Hidden Killers with Tony Brusky.

Here now, Tony Brusky.

And it just keeps going. So just the other day, we're talking about the Duggers.

The tawny town, it's the name of a community in northwest Arkansas. Police, they arrived at the

Dugger family compound with a warrant looking for Kendra Dugger, who's 27 years old.

Wife of Joseph Dugger, mother of four. She's not home. So they wait.

And she eventually shows up arrested on the spot, walked through booking at the Washington

County Detention Center, mug shot taken, blank stare, visibly shaken. 83 minutes later,

she's out on $1,470,000 bond. Photographer catches her and a passenger seat of a car outside the

jail. Both hands are covering her face. Her husband has been in a cell since Wednesday. He's not

getting out. He waved his extradition rights on Friday, which means Bay County Florida now has

30 days to come collect him and bring him back to face a charge that under Florida law carries

a potential life sentence. 72 hours, two members of the same household arrested, two separate

criminal investigations running simultaneously in two different states, four children at home,

age 356 and seven. Shouldn't they be proud of mom and dad? If you've been following the headlines

this weekend, feel like the pieces aren't quite connecting. That's because most of the coverage has

treated this as one story. It's not. It's actually two. And you need to understand both of them

separately before you can understand what this family is actually facing right now. On March 17th,

26th, a father confronted Joseph Ducker about what had allegedly happened to his daughter, the

girl at the time nine years old when it occurred. She's now 14. The alleged incidents happened

during a family vacation in Panama City Beach, Florida in 2020 at a residence on Danny Drive.

She'd been carrying this for nearly five years before she said anything out loud,

not as a data point as a reality. A child experiences something doesn't tell anyone

grows into a teenager and eventually they find the words. So for any dumb ass out there who likes

to say, well, it took her five years, she was nine. Actually heard that over the weekend.

Actually discussing this case in an Uber

when the dumb ass driver

brought up, well, it took her five years.

Yeah. And she was nine. Even more crazy about that moment was the fact that my

my daughter was in the car with me. And she's about the same age as this girl in Florida

who had this happen to her when she was nine.

But don't be surprised when you start talking about the story or hearing more about the story

that you hear a bunch of idiots going, well, it took her five years. Yeah, I'm sure that

nine-year-old was sitting there plotting and planning her payday on the doggers at nine.

Well, it's mom and dad. No, it's not mom and dad. It's not because in this case, Joseph

admitted to it. Even when you have the jackasses that are saying things like this, it's like,

hey, dumb fuck, he admitted to it too. Oh.

Not to say that people can't make things up. They certainly do. But in this case, I'm sorry.

He admitted to it. She was nine. The family is a track record.

It is what it is. And it's pretty freaking horrific. So be aware.

Be aware as this case gets discussed in the coming days and weeks of those who would like to

downplay these sort of things. As I got news for you, probably at nine, she didn't really know

what the hell was happening. She thought this is normal. That's how people like this get away

with this sort of stuff. So anyway, happy to share that little nugget.

So she grows into a teenager. Eventually finds the words. She tells someone her father listened

and then her father did something about it. Thank God. On March 17th, he confronted Joseph

directly. According to the arrest affidavit released by the Bay County Sheriff's Office, a

tiny town detective was quietly on the line during that call. Joseph didn't deny allegedly what

the father was telling him. He admitted it to the father. And then a second time to the detectives

documented in the arrest affidavit. That admission is what produced the warrant.

What the girl described in her forensic interview, per that affidavit, Joseph allegedly asked

her repeatedly to sit on his lap over the course of the vacation.

This is always such a big red flag to me. Anybody. Anytime there's like some guy,

asking somebody else's kid to go sit on their lap. It's like, it's like, what the,

oh, it's nothing. Yeah, you know what? It is. It's just kind of freaking weird these days.

You know, it's always kind of been a little weird. If we're going to be really honest about it,

it's always been kind of weird. It's just there wasn't enough adults sticking their heads up,

going, that's not appropriate. That's not appropriate. There's too many, too many generations

where we let this one go by and go, oh, they're harmless. They're just a harmless, harmless person.

They would never do anything until it's like, oh, until they do something, then it's like,

oh, we didn't see that coming. Oh, really? Well, all the kids you felt uncomfortable sitting on

everybody's lap for all those years might have had something to say of like, this is a little much.

Like, there's a seat right here. I'll sit next to you. We can talk. We can hang out.

I don't need to have part of my body near your parts. I don't really see the need for that.

In any way, shape or form.

But as so many do, so many brush it off. Oh, totally fine. Go take a blanket, put it around you,

and my daughter and snuggle up together. What could possibly be weird about that?

People are so stupid. Well, it's innocent. I'm sure, I mean, look, there's plenty of people

where truly it is, but you know what? Just don't do it. How about that? Just don't do that.

Because you never know if that kid, the last time some strange friend or friend of mom and dad

or family friend or whatever the hell they would consider themselves to be had somebody do that.

This sort of stuff might have happened. So while you may be the innocent one going,

oh, never done that. I would never do that. No one's ever done that to me.

Great. Consider yourself really fricking lucky because a lot of people didn't.

And just because that's your reality doesn't mean it's somebody else's reality or this little girl's

reality. I can guarantee anytime somebody's sitting around going, come here. Let's put a blanket

over us. There's one thing going through her head and it's not snuggle time.

Shame, we live in a world like this. Yeah, it is. It's in shame that people like this have been

enabled for so long under the nick eyes of God. Oh, they're religious. They're godly. They're

wonder. They would never. Yeah, they only have a track record of dittling children. That's all.

What the girl disclosed in her forensic interview, pro that affidavit, Joseph already asked

her repeatedly to sit on his lap over the course of the vacation. As the days continued,

he asked her to sit behind him beside him on a couch and cover them both with a blanket

under that blanket, according to investigators, he, yeah, he used his hands

in ways no man should be using his hands on a small child.

This happened more than once. At some point, the affidavit states he apologized

and the conduct stopped. Well, that's good because that seems to be how it works with the

duggers apologizing. It's all good. Remember Jim Bob, you know, he impossible. He, you know,

when we're the other one, the other one went off, sent off to go work at the the boys camp

and put it up drywall after he was doing it through his sisters and it's like, oh, he's a changed

man. He's stupid fox. On March 18th, Tonningtown police received the warrant from Bay County and

arrested Joseph Garrett Dugger, the seventh of Jim Bob and Michelle Dugger's 19 children,

husband, father of four kids all under the age of eight at his home in Tonningtown, Arkansas.

The Florida charges are lured and lascivious conductor. I'm not going to say the word because

we don't want to get flight. I'm a victim less than 12 and lured and lascivious behavior conducted

by a person 18 years or older. So under Florida statute 800.04 lured, lascivious

m of a child under 12 by a person 18 or older is classified as a life felony. Thank God.

It's not a phrase used loosely in Florida criminal law. It's one of the most serious charges

classifications on the books, sitting alongside murder and armed ass battery in terms of

sentencing exposure. He could go away for life. Good. Put him there, throw away the key, put him in

a cell with somebody named Bubba, who's been s repressed for a little while and is ready to have a

buffet. Duggers come into town. A conviction can mean the rest of your life in prison. Joseph

is 31 years old. He wave x tradition on Friday, the clock to his transfer to Florida is now running.

That's case one. Remember I said there's more than one case, sir. There is there's two. Oh,

maybe by the end of the week, there'll be three who knows. Case two is the one that's gotten

less attention and it deserves a little bit more. But let's understand what it actually means,

though, too. Okay, because it is a completely different investigation involving different

allegations of the different set of potential victims entirely. But when we understand why

the second set of charges are really the first set of charges for her, the wife came down.

Let's understand it. Let's go through what it actually means. When a parent in an Arkansas

household is arrested on child s charges and minor children live in that home, state,

procedure, triggers, and automatic home study. Investigators go to the residence. It's not punitive

and it's not discretionary. It's protocol designed specifically to assess whether the children

already in that home are safe. It happened here within days of Joseph's arrest. So he gets charged,

gets arrested. He's going to go face that in Florida. Arkansas then has to go because those

charges were not stemming from his house in Arkansas. Different state, different set of charges.

It's a different thing. Arkansas then has sees the red flag and says, oh, red flag with this

human being who has children in their home. Let's go see what's going on at the house.

According to a source with knowledge of the case, he was spoke with us weekly. Investigators went

to the dugger home and reportedly found rooms with door locks installed on the outside, not the inside,

the outside, meaning children could be locked in their own rooms from the hallway. That specific

detail has not been confirmed by police on the record. Okay. So that's us weekly is saying that

it's interesting because the investigation remains active in Arkansas law limits public

disclosure and cases involving minors. We say it in the way the sourcing supports it reported

by a source with direct knowledge of the case, not yet officially confirmed.

So that that right there, I guess, could possibly be enough to get you in a little bit of trouble,

which is is really what what this is with the Arkansas charges. What is confirmed by

Tony Tom Police Department press release is what the investigation produced. Both Joseph and

Kendra Dugger were charged with four counts each of second degree endangering the welfare of a

minor in four counts each of second degree false imprisonment. They have four children. The

number of counts is not a coincidence. Under Arkansas law, second degree endangering the welfare

of a minor involves knowingly endangering engaging rather in conduct that creates a substantial

risk of serious harm to a child. Second degree false imprisonment involves restraining a person without

their consent and without legal authority to do so. Both are misdemeanor offenses and that distinction

matters enormously because Kendra Dugger's charges are categorically different in legal weight

from the felonies Joseph is facing in Florida. Misdemeanor does not mean meaning less.

False imprisonment of a child is false imprisonment of a child, but conflating a misdemeanor with

a potential life felony does not serve you guys and it doesn't serve accuracy. They are not

the same thing. So that should be said. Kendra has not been charged with anything connected to

the Florida case. Her charges are in Arkansas. They are separate. She was released on $1,470,000

bond and had a hearing now scheduled for the 23rd, which is actually as of the recording right now.

And both she and Joseph have an April 29th court date and Elm Springs district court

another town right around here. Yeah, we record in this Northwest Arkansas right into these

folks at the restaurants. So that's that's important to note to understand what's going on here.

Kendra, can I talk to you for just a second? I know you got four kids. You've seen the track record

of this family and I even brought up in this madness. Run, run, run as far and fast as you can

from these people. Nothing good will come of it. That's my opinion. That's my advice.

I don't I don't know what else to tell you. Does anyone have anything? I don't have anything.

I mean, seriously, they don't watch TV. They don't use the internet much. They don't

so I don't know. I mean, they if you've not seen it yet, go watch shiny happy people on Amazon.

All right. That'll give you a much better understanding of the the family and the IBP LS or

whatever the hell their religion is called. And I use the word religion generously. It's a cult

in my opinion. And there's a lot of people in it. It explains it well.

It will help you understand how one might find themselves in this situation and give you

grace to understand that some that a lot of people, most of the people in this situation,

they are victims. They are unknowingly victims. But again, everybody's an adult here at some point

too. And at some point, we got to use our own agency and go, you know what? Maybe this is at the

best option. Maybe I was swindled into something that's really not what is going to be best for me

or my children. Maybe the best thing is getting my children as far away from this family as I

possibly can. I don't know, just a thought. That's how I'd be feeling if I were in your shoes right now.

Now, the family responses because that part of the story is just as revealing as the charges.

Josh Dugger, remember, Josh, the one who's already in prison, the oldest of the 19 children currently

serving 12 and a half years at FCI, Seagabill Federal Prison, convicted of receiving and possessing

child C. Sam Material, some of it depicting children under the age of 12. He issued a statement

through his attorney to the Daily Mail. He said, his brothers are rest deeply saddened him.

He spoke about the painful reality of false accusations. Oh, that's where this goes, kids. Yes,

it's not, oh my God, this is horrible. I hope he gets the help he does, he needs. I've been

benefiting from the help I've been receiving in prison. No, no, it's just false accusations.

Go into the denial route. Oh, helping the cause there, Josh. He said the truth gets twisted into

and this comes directly from his attorney statement, sensationalized fiction.

I don't think his hand was sensationalized fiction to that nine-year-old.

I mean, really, I mean, or do you all consider your hand sensationalized fiction? Is that what

you guys call it when you're doing your stuff? I'm in front of him for some sensationalized

fiction right now. Then go to my dark, court and off hard drive at my used car dealership

and engage in sensationalized fiction. Is that how you've re-worded this shit in your mind to

justify your existence, to justify your sensationalization? Is that what the Lord calls it?

Is that what the Lord calls it? Or is that what Jim Bob called it? No, it's probably just you,

probably I'm not, I'm not going to put words in Jim Bob, but Jim Bob, what do you think of that?

What do you think of your son referring to sensationalized fiction as describing,

well, Joshy's problems over there and and your other son's problems that he's admitted to

on audio with an officer listening. Is that sensationalized fiction? Is it?

Ha, you guys got weird definitions of sensationalized fiction because it really, it's more so a

damning harsh reality is what I like to call it. And the rest of the world does outside of the

compound that doesn't fuck like rabbits. Yeah, because to re, to the rest of the world right here,

you know who seem more like sensationalized fiction? Your family, your religion,

all of that sensationalized fiction. That's the IBPL fuck US, whatever the hell it is.

That that word. A lot of people look at and go, that's got to be sensationalized fiction.

And then we look at it closer like, oh God, no, this is the seventh layer of hell.

In my opinion,

how it would be lovely if all of this was sensationalized fiction.

Unfortunately, you guys brought the horror to the scene and then when people call your asses out,

it's sensationalized. Yeah, do you guys tell yourself whatever you need to get by? Okay.

Okay. Anybody need any money in their campaign? We're jaw, in their, their canteen,

their campaign. I was thinking of, of Jim Bob's one and their canteen. Anybody need any money

in their canteen? Over there, we're, we're Josh's anyone. It's curious.

Josh might need a reality check of sensationalized fiction and reality.

Joseph Dagger did not say it was fiction. Joseph Dagger allegedly admitted to this

conduct to the victim's father and then a second time to law enforcement, documented in their

arrest affidavits. So I don't even like, I don't think Josh even knows what's going on.

He just immediately, the knee jerk responds to everything, I guess, seems to be sensationalized

fiction, even though he admitted to doing it. There's no ambiguity in the record about whether

Joseph said it happened. He said it happened and the man convicted of downloading child

CSAM material currently sitting in federal prison responded to his brother's admission

by invoking false accusations and media sensationalism.

Josh Dagger's appeal of his conviction failed in 23. He scheduled for release on December 23rd of

2032. Jill Dagger-Diller, Joseph's older sister, one of Josh's documented victims, someone who

spent years publicly and painfully distancing herself from this family, posted a statement

through her family blog. She and her husband said they found out about Joseph's arrest through a

text message from a friend, not a call from a parent, not a family meeting, a friend texted them

a link to a news report. That's how they learned their brother had been arrested and charged

with doing that to a child. The same way the rest of us did. Their statement condemned the abuse

without qualification, expressed direct support for the victim and her family and made no attempt to

minimize what the charge is described. They didn't go the sensationalized fiction route and,

of course, they wanted their respectable people who realized and saw the light of the cult they

were being brought up in and got the f out. Notably Jim Bob Dagger and Michelle Dagger,

you know, the ones who are the moral authorities for the world, the parents of all 19 of these

children, the architects of a public image built across a decade of network reality television

show that talk like this, the couple who stood in front of cameras for years and so on America,

the idea that this household was the functioning model of faith, family and whosomeness.

Well, they've issued no statement as of yet. Well, wonderful get one at some point.

I wonder if it'll be anywhere near the level of a Josh put out. I don't know. I'm curious.

I have no idea. I have no way am I saying that they had any idea that any this is going on,

at all, you know, who the fuck knows. Multiple media outlets contacted the Dagger's family official

media request website across multiple days following both the rationale response, no comment,

nothing. Too busy praying the sin away, right? We're sorry. We're busy praying it away.

That's a joke. A man serving federal time for child charges called its sensationalized

fiction, the sister who was herself a documented victim condemned the charges immediately.

Clearly, the parents of the 19 kids, do of whom are criminally charged in cases involving

harm to children have said absolutely nothing. Yeah. Two Dagger sons, one in federal prison on a child

convictions of content, trying to say it without getting flayed on YouTube. The appeal

exhausted release date set for 2032, one now facing potential life. This could this is actually

a a stiffer charge. This is if you're like, who's done worse? I mean, it's all bad.

But in terms of charges and potential consequences, this is worse.

Things just got far worse for the Dagger family. On a charge he admitted to before he was ever

arrested, he's sitting in a county jail in Arkansas waiting for the state of Florida to come pick him

up with four additional misdemeanor charges in his home state stacked on top. A wife arrested two days

after her husband facing her own charges in her own case out on bond with court dates ahead,

four children at the center of an investigation that law enforcement has said clearly is not finished.

The compound in northwest Arkansas that became a crime scene, family that built its entire

identity around the idea that they had something. The rest of us didn't moral superiority, whatever

the hell they were doing. And has now watched that claim collapse twice in five years under the

weight of criminal charges involving their 19 kids and counting. The deeper history of this

family, the theology that shaped it, the closed belief system that made silence the default

response to harm, the pattern that allowed the same damage to repeat across decades. That

context lives in previous work. It matters. It's there if you want it. The story isn't that.

You can go back and you can listen to some of our previous reporting on it. We have a lot more

to come on it, too, in the coming weeks. We're going to be digging far deeper into this religion.

I put it in a quote. I don't know. Is it even classified as a religion anymore? I think that

might have changed. I got to look into it. The story is one week, two states, two investigation,

charges explained plainly, sourcing, stating, honestly, distinctions drawn clearly because the

people at the center of this, not the doggers, the other people deserve to have it told that way.

A 14-year-old girl in Florida sat across from an investigator and described what had happened

her when she was nine years old. She didn't have to do that. It took five years for her to get

there. When she did, she said every single event of this weekend emotion, everything, every warrant,

every arrest, every charge, every mugshot, every statement from a prison cell flows directly

from her decision to say what she said out loud. And she deserves her people to understand that.

And four children in Arkansas, age three, five, six, and seven, have no context for any of this.

They didn't choose this family, this house.

The smallest people in the entire story, they're carrying the most of it. Whatever comes next

in these courtrooms and these investigations in these two states, they'll be living with the

consequences of it for a very long time to come. Those are the people the story is about.

And the victim in Florida, not the doggers, them. Your thoughts in the comments section.

On YouTube and sub-stack, I'm not surprised are you? I mean, come on. Look at the ecosystem.

And this is the recipe for people. This is what you get. Let's stop being surprised and start

being preemptive. That's what everybody should be looking at with anybody in that religion.

When you create a structure like this, you create people like this. Not all of them turn out to be

like this, but you have certainly created a plateau for people with certain propensities to go

certain distances that they otherwise would not have been in my opinion. Again, you were thoughts

in the comments section. Jim Bob, he's just the most unlucky father in the world just has the

best of intentions, the best of everything. And gosh, it all just went to shit.

Is this the Lord testing him on his faith? There's a thousand ways people will look at this.

And I'm not accusing him of any wrongdoing.

But damn, look at this group of monsters you made.

Something went wrong. What was it? Again, your thoughts in the comments section will continue

our conversation there. Until then, I'm Tony Bruceke. What's Todd? We'll talk again real soon.

This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Bruceke and Robin Dree.

Fourteen-year-old girl gave a forensic interview. The father made a call and then Joseph

Dugger allegedly admitted to everything to the victim's father and then again to detectives.

And now he's sitting in an Arkansas county jail about seven miles that way from me,

waiting to be extradited to Florida on felony child s abuse charges. And his wife is facing

her own counts and a separate but connected investigation in Arkansas. Two states, two cases,

a recorded confession and a family with a documented pattern of handling exactly this kind of

thing internally. Because that's what you do. The legal picture here is as complicated as it is

damning. And if anyone can break down what Joseph Dugger's defense actually looks like from

the inside out, it's a criminal defense attorney who's seen cases like this from every angle.

Bob Mata, defense attorney, joining myself and Robin Dree today as we discuss a lot and we will

start with the Dugger situation and we invite your thoughts, your comments in the comments section

wherever you are watching us right now. Let's start here. Bob Joseph Dugger allegedly admitted

to the abuse to the victim's father and then to a tiny town detectives who were on the line

reportedly confirmed during a recorded phone call. Walk us through. I mean, what a defense

attorney is actually working with when a client has already made statements like that before an

attorney is anywhere near the picture of what's going on here me? What kind of situation are we

are we looking at for the defense of Joseph Dugger? A bad one. Forget it.

All jokes aside, it's the first thing I ask a client when they walk in or a perspective client

that you talk. Yeah. Did you make a statement to law enforcement? And that's typically where I'm at

with respect to whether or not it's going to be suppressive. There's going to be a lot of

things to look at it because that's where you're at. If there's a statement out there and it's

incredibly damning, the best that you can hope to do is defense attorneys look at it and say all right,

well, was it a tap? Was it an over here? Did they go and get a warrant in terms of the over here

that they definitely have? But the statements with respect to the initial statement was that

and you've got two states involved, right? You've got Arkansas and Florida. I think Florida is

they're wide open down there. The sunshine state. Yeah. You can just do anything you want down

there. They want everything out in the sunshine. I think that like Arkansas and you might know

tone is a one person consent state. So, you know, I mean, you're going to have to try to attack it

because once you see that it exists in the world, it becomes probably the worst evidence that

they have against you because it's a confession. Yeah. All the way to slice it. I mean, how do you

go about going into a case like? I mean, is this a case that is likely to even go to a trial?

I mean, once you have a confession like that, or is it is it a some sort of a deal that is made

or is it let's take this to trial? And I'm likely to be found guilty, but I'm going to negotiate

this. I'm going to plead this to be less than than what they're saying. It is that I don't know.

I mean, where do you where does something like this go when this is our dropping start off point?

This is what I'm always talking about. And I'm always trying to remind people that a vast majority

of cases do not go to trial. When I have evidence like this, it's typically and I know

about it on the front end. So if I ask that question, did you make a statement and he's sitting

in front of me or, you know, if I've gone to do a jail visit and he's like, yeah, you know,

I made a statement and then I'm saying, okay, what would you say? And then he says, this is what I

said. I was saying, okay, well, here's what we're going to do. I have to wait until we get the police

reports. I have to see how they say that this went down. I need to see if there were warrants

involved. And at that point, if there is a way that I can bring a viable motion to suppress,

then we can try it. After that, if that fails, then we're dealing with a piece of evidence that's

going to be impossible to get over. And what I'm recommending to you is that I started having

a conversation about a plea. And we, you know, but ultimately at the end of the day,

the sticking point is always whether or not somebody wants to go to trial is not the lawyer's

choice. That's right. That all we can do is advise them. We think it's a bad idea. It could be a

trial tax. You know, if you plead this thing out, maybe we shave a couple of years off of it,

whatever the case may be. But I mean, the reality is this thing quickly shifts into the latter of

what you were talking about. We're trying to work out a plea deal and you're trying to see if you

can help them in any way in terms of shaving a bit of time off, you know, but the reality is

when the state has that kind of evidence, and it's your own words. These aren't Richard Allen

confessions. I did it. Apparently, I did. This is the guy talking about it. Things that

only he would know. So it's a death knelt to any kind of potential trial. So I'd be stunned

if it didn't get put out, but I've been stunned before, you know, and Bob, I'm curious. How does

if it does it all, you know, this family's got now a track record of some really important behavior

with Josh beforehand. Is that going to enter into this at any point, you know, and whether it

goes a trial or it's going to be mitigated out beforehand through a plea deal. Does that look

that by anyone? Yeah, I mean, I think it's looked at probably by the state, you know, but in

terms of relevance, if it were to go to trial, I don't know that it would be relevant in terms of

because look, it's relevant to us in the real world. But when you're talking about a trial,

it's got to be relevant to the case that's before either the judge or the jury and bad behavior

of other family members while it may show a pattern and that there were issues with this family

clearly, you know, is relevant again in the real world, but in terms of this particular case,

unless you're going with some kind of mental defect type of defense.

And so actually, to follow on with that, I've been, as you all know, I've been binge watching

the Duggers, I've been reading Jill's book and what's been really, really striking is the trauma

that the other siblings were exposed to by Josh and now and other. And I'm curious as a defense

attorney, how challenging is it to work with potential people, both, I guess, both prosecution and

defense that a lot of times the siblings are excused into behavior, which breaks your heart even more,

their down plan that they're just, I mean, they are really not wanting to hurt their brothers

and earlier statements. So I'm curious how hard and challenging that is to work with as an

attorney trying to show the true criminality here when a lot of times the people involved are trying

to say, yeah, he did it, but it's not criminal. I don't care. I want to, you know, they just want

to go away. Yeah. And that's that thing that we talk about. It seems like weekly were, you know,

kind of discussing the fact of the matters that we're dealing with the defendant. So we're in a

unique position that the state does not have any kind of access to the defendant. So like we're

dealing with it on a more human level, whereas prosecutors are typically looking at it as a piece

of paper, a name on a piece of paper in facts, and we're just plowing through. Like that's something

that we always have to deal with. Like when I was representing Anthony Garcia, who, you know, his

family came up with the money to hire us and they're sitting there stunned that their son has

been accused of murdering four people over five years, like stunned. Like they had no inkling of

knowing that that he was capable of this. They had no, they couldn't grab their mind around it.

You know, so I mean, every situation obviously is different, but in terms of like trying to get

the family over the hump is also made more difficult depending on whether or not you've got a client

who's made admissions to you as the attorney, or if you believe that your client is coming in,

and they're saying that they didn't do this, you get the discovery and you're tending to agree with

them based on the lack of evidence. How do you handle that with a family other than preparing them

for kind of the inevitable thing, which is he's going to be sitting at that defendant's table.

The likelihood is that he's going to get convicted because juries want to hold somebody accountable

for heinous acts. So it's a really, it's a challenging aspect of it. And Robin, like you would

kind of aptly brought up, like I don't know if it was the last time we were on or the time before.

You know, we have to wear a lot of different hats. I mean, there is that psychology hat that we

have to put on in terms of how to deal with the family that you know is going to be resistant to

wanting to assign blame or resistant to accepting the fact that they've done this thing.

And you know, ultimately at the end of the day, the bottom line is whatever is going on,

the family doesn't affect in any way, shape or form, our representation of our client. I mean,

our duty is to that person and that person alone. But the reality, again, the reality of the situation

is you're trying to juggle all these different things when you're handling a case like that.

And it's hard. And it's a really, it's a difficult thing to tangle with because you've got families

that are devastated or in denial and you're sitting there and you're like, man, you know,

and frankly, I can't relay what my client is saying to me. You know, I mean, I've got

attorney client privilege and I explain that to them on the front end. They're not able to sit in

with us when I'm having an interview with my client because it breaks privilege. You know,

so it's like you kind of have to keep them in the dark to a certain extent, but you're trying

to prepare them for the worst if they're depending on where they're at with it. You know what I mean?

If they're in denial, if they're, if they're just like refusing to be helpful in any way because

they just don't want to hurt that person because they love them and it's their sibling and you know,

you can't detach yourself from somebody you've unconditionally loved your entire life and all

of a sudden they've done something horrible or they're accused of to have done something horrible.

It doesn't make you not love that person anymore. You know, I mean, it may make you think about

them differently, but still, you know, and it's hard to quantify what love is and words. It's

feeling, you know, we've been trying to do it since we could put paper to pen to describe what

love is, but yeah, I mean, all of it's, all of it's challenging and, you know, this family

man, the psychopathy of it in terms of it. It's just a lot here. Here's where it gets me because

and if somebody's not aware that they're part of this IBLP structure, which is a religion,

and I put it in air quotes. They basically have a structure where you don't necessarily report

wrongdoing to authorities on everything. There we go. There's if you're watching us on YouTube,

that is a little chart. They're umbrellas. There's Christ, which is the church and, you know,

Christ and Bill gothard, you know, they hang out. They go to Denny's on the breakfast buffet and they

get the Rudy Tutti fresh and fruity and then everything's great. And then, and then there's the

husband that's underneath God and Bill gothard. You know, he's probably going to the eye hop. He

doesn't quite get the Denny's Rudy Tutti fresh and fruity. But he got the husband and then

everybody from below the husband, which is the wife, the children, the victims, everyone.

They all have to go to the husband and then report and then the husband decides if this is

something that is, you know, appropriate to report to the authorities. And we all know in the

first round of this horror story that Jim Bob allegedly decided, you know, we're going to

kind of hold this one in. We're going to call this one close to the vest when the allegations

came in from his own daughters of their son doing things to them until finally a family friend

said, you know what, Jim Bob, this whole campaign thing that you got going on, your whole political

platform that you're running on, these things, these virtues that you claim you hold dear to your

heart that come from God himself. You're kind of going against all that shit by not turning your

son in for doing what he did to your daughters. And then it was, okay, maybe we should do something

about that. You kind of got, it's a different aspect over here because Jim Bob's as far as we know,

it's not involved in this conversation, although who knows the day is young. But what we understand

is that Joseph here, this is five years ago, they did this when the girl was nine. He was like

25, 26. He's sitting on a couch with a nine year old several times with the blanket over them

and then he's doing things with his hands. And that's all we need to say. This is what's going on.

Five years ago. And then the girl finally comes out says this admits it tells her to her father.

The father calls Joseph and says, Hey, I hear something happened on the couch with my daughter.

Joseph comes clean. And then he gets the officer on the line from Arkansas and then he comes

clean again. And it's not clear if Joseph was aware of the officer who's on the line.

I'm going to take a wild guess that the answer is no. But he did, he did then again say, yes, I did

this. See, that's that over here thing that I'm talking about. So if you're going to get it

over here, I mean, we've handled it. But like typically if it's a law enforcement over here

and they're using a CI and in typically it's it's it's somebody that's involved with that person

and or a relative of the victim, you know, most of the times it's it's a a baby mama or yeah,

well, a parent of the child that was abused that was in a relationship with that person because

you see it all the time. You see it with like in, you know, boyfriend, that parent relationships

where you see abuse happening. And then there's an outcry sometimes after many times after the

relationship has been terminated for whatever reasons. And then at that point they go they make

the outcry, the kid does. And then the parent goes to law enforcement and they're like, all right,

this is what we need to do. Yeah, we're going to go in. We're going to get a, you know, a tap warrant

and over here warrant. And we're going to be listening. So you're not necessarily it's kind of like

when they'd wire somebody up except via phone, you know, phone calls. Yeah, you know, but it's like

you got to go in. Obviously they're going to have the probable cause to get it in many times.

And the cops are literally sitting there like listening just like. Sure. I mean, how, how much

does this complicate it when you have a family that doesn't believe in going to police when,

when this sort of stuff happens? I mean, it's, he's, they're treating it like, oh,

shucks, you caught me. I mean, this, I mean, it makes me curious. I like, I wonder how

honesty is going to be with his own defense attorney. You know, when they, when they hold all these

things in close until they're called out on, which seems to be the track record, that's got to

make things a little bit more complicated and illegal. But, but, but, but they always, and they

hold religion as the reasoning for their, their thought process or their lack of accountability

under the law. How does, how does that, does that play in and all under the law? They're,

they're religion and their belief system of, well, we handle these things internally and we don't

go to the law, even though, you know, under the law, we have to, but we don't because our,

our religion supersedes it. Yeah. No, that's not how it works. Yeah, I didn't think so. Yeah.

And you saw the guardrails, you know, we talked about guardrails on these things and when Tony

had the graphic up of the umbrella, you know, Christ, father, whatever, those are the guardrails.

Nowhere in those guardrails, did you see legal, legality, state law, federal law? There was no

legal environment around. Yeah. Well, I mean, let me ask you this, how did it work for Laurie

Valow? True. They were all just vessels. They were demons. They weren't even humans anymore. And

it's like, in that case, in particular, I'm like, this woman's batshit crazy. You know, I mean,

and like, the challenge for the defense in that case is that they don't have the insanity defense

available to defendants in that state. You can only go in and attack, you know, kind of the men's

re-apportion of a statute by saying this person could not form the requisite intent because of

a mental defect. So it's, they have like a semblance of it, but, you know, like, you're not going

to be able to lean on religion if it entails, you know, being a pedophile or murdering people,

you can't say, well, you know, that's that's what our religion calls for. We keep it all in house.

We deal with it. We deal with it on our own. It's also interesting too, you know,

just the difference between values, you know, small, you know, crazy cult mentality.

And I mean, she had roughly their followers, you know, of people of their minds that they

had roughly five to 10, maybe 15, 20 at their height until until the real crazy came out.

Yeah. But it's interesting. But with the IBLP, this is a massive, massive group that has tons

of social proof that's reinforcing itself about how to handle all these situations. And so,

you know, defend, yeah, you're right. It does not fit within the legal guidelines of anything

of what is right or not right. But I wonder how much they might try to fall back on. Hey,

this is the way we handle things. This is how we, you know, because I mean, they're, they're reform

project for Josh was a send them away to one of the free labor camps that's run by IBLP.

Seriously, it is labor. They got labor camps for kids. I like, I mean, technology in a way.

It's like seorg to a certain, they're kind of like Scientology light in a lot of ways.

Yeah, but way out there where it's exposed to everyone's like, you could sign up, go to a

website. You can literally sign up right now if you want to go to one of their clinics and camps.

I was looking at her right before we came on. Oh, I saw it. There's a workshop coming up in

April that made me should take a field trip. Yes. Their video is on authority. It's really interesting.

Yeah, it's the whole thing is it's, it's a nonstarter in terms of the, I mean, there's a, you know,

the separation of church and state exists for a reason. Sure.

Not in this case. I mean, well, maybe not to them, but to the law does. So when that's what matters,

yeah, it's, it's a, it's a really bizarre case. And it's just, you know, I mean, how to work out

for the Catholic church, you know, when, when all that's coming down with, you know, the priests and

the real issues that they were having with molesting young boys, you know, in the same with the

Boy Scouts, you know, I mean, like, all these kind of, you know, institutions that have existed

that really put predators in a prime position to be able to do what it is that they most desire

doing. You know, eventually, you hope that the kids are going to finally start out crying and it's

going to be made public because it's like that, that dominion and power that's held over these

kids in terms of, and then when you add the family dynamic in, it just makes it all that much more

different. It's spreading. So I mean, I mean, I think this kind of, this kind of control is

bred into them. I mean, that's why it's so different from these other cults that start later in

life. I was Tony and I ever talked my yesterday. This is from birth. Yeah. So you don't get over

indoctrination that is part of who you are from. Yeah. All it's all the memories they have is

just unbelievable. I mean, you could make the argument that they don't know any better because that's

all they don't. You could. I mean, you might be able to actually, but they did get out there.

I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean, that actually is an interesting argument.

Still not a defense, though. Right. It's not ignorance. The law is no excuse.

Right. No. No. Yeah. The other thought to this, and this is just pure conjecture, he hasn't been

charged with anything else. This sort of shit never happens in a vacuum. Does anyone for one

second believe that it just was a while. He got a wild hair one day. It's a one off. It's a one

off. I'm just going to get this blank and go see with this nine year old over here. And I'm just,

I got some questions. I want to experiment. I mean, I mean, I don't think that's how this went.

I'm thinking there might be a trend in a track record and there might be other victims.

Again, hasn't been charged with anything, but I'm going to take a wild guess if we're just going

to base it on reality and how we know these fuckers work. There's probably more people.

And they don't even know their victims. So that's what. Well, and that's the thing. They don't

know their victims because it's the only life they know. This is the way it is. It's anybody,

anybody who had interactions with these pieces of shit with their children needs to be having

some very serious conversations. The problem with that, that, that statement is most the time they

travel only within their own sect, within their own cult, within other cult members. So they all

the cult members, all the fathers who are right below Goddard and Jesus at Denys. They're all

ready to be like, oh, the buck stops here. We'll handle this internally. But I would hope to God,

literally, it's time to come forward. And if they do, and if there's a litany of more people

that come out and have a horror story against Joseph Dagger, again, not saying there are, I have no

idea. But if there are, and they start coming forward, this is going to be the worst PR nightmare

the Dagger's have ever seen. They thought Josh was bad. Wait till this one continues to come forward.

It is, but it goes to what Robin was saying, like the people that you think most about in those

situations are the kids because they are, they're indoctrinated from birth and they know different.

And if you don't, if you're not educated, that something is wrong because that's the thing that

you deal with and we dealt with in this country forever until they started educating kids in

school about abuse. And you were not the problem here. It's the predator problem. It's not your fault.

That person is doing something that they shouldn't be doing to you. And unless the kids are taught

that, they don't know. They don't know. The most striking word watching the, the saddest, you know,

TV specials I've been watching on this and then read on Jill's book is the most powerful tool they

use nonstop is shame. They shame these kids into behaviors. And the most striking thing about

that is, where else, who else, what are the kind of horrendous human beings use that same power of

shame? People that victimize children. 100 percent. So it's exactly the same thing. Or they live.

Same behavior. Yeah. These idiots better think long and hard before they get on the bandwagon.

We love all of our children and we hope everything and get on the band like they did behind Joshi

where they were just like, we love him. And then they just kind of go silent. They better think

long and hard about it with this one, especially if there ends up being a lot of allegations that

start coming up against him because that's going to, I mean, they're already on the wrong side of

history. But if they want to get even further deep, I mean, yeah, go ahead. Dig in. Dig on in.

Get dig on in behind Joseph. That'll work out well for you. This is also why it's so challenging

because these cultures inoculate themselves from the outside scrutiny by marrying internally.

You know, that's why that's why that's why the father has to approve the courtship. It can only

court someone that the father approves who's going to be someone who's already indoctrinated into

the system. You know, and so and so when you have that that insular, you know, self perpetuating

cycle of crazy, then it's never nothing ever comes alike because I was looking at the stats on

this, you know, we talked about yesterday, Tony, it's like the the Amish have a lot of similar

problems, a lot of similar problems, but they actually are so cloistered that they don't interact

with English all that often. And so it doesn't really come to light. But when you're looking at the raw

numbers for legal cases for these types of cases, they're on par with exactly with each other. But

this group actually interacts more with the outside world than the Amish do. And it's not

disparaging any of these things. I'm just we're just talking raw numbers.

Yeah. And I mean, to kind of go back to it, it's not just that shame aspect, but you know,

they're they're taught there's a normalcy. Yeah.

Thing that they're that are indoctrinated into as well that this is normal. This is how it's

supposed to be. And again, if you're a child and you don't know any better, how are you supposed to

know? If you're being taught, you see, that's brainwashing. I mean, it's it's yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And just talk about the normalcy of things, you know, part of the most horrendous thing

that I called my wife and she came up and she believes in her morning. So I'm watching these

two things on TV, right? And I'm watching one of the videos of them giving instruction,

one of the the church leader up there giving instruction on how to properly spank a child on

a stage. He bends the boy over his knee on stage, shows him how to spank him that he's going to

love him more from. And then he didn't give him a big enough hug. He spanked them some more and

said, now give me a bigger hug. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how people like what trauma bonding is called.

I don't know how people watch. It's not like the Dugger show was ancient history. You know,

this was this was just a few years. So this was like 10 years ago on TLC. And it's all

of your town Tony. It's always in your town. That's what I'm curious about. So many people. Yeah,

come, you'll find. Yeah. Wait, wait, tell July. You'll come during the call.

He is always in your town. Yeah. There's so many here. I know. But but the thing is the so many

people watch this damn show and this got their warm and fuzzies out of it. How does anybody look

back at the clips of this show and not be completely creeped out? Same like Ruby Frankie.

I mean, it's exactly like Ruby. I was creeped out back then watching it. I don't respect all

religions. I think some need to be called the fuck out. And this is one of them. We need to stop

respecting everybody that claims what they're doing is a religion. What it's really just coercive

control. I mean, 100%, but you're never going to be able to stop it because. No, you're not,

yeah, because of the amendment, you know, but but but we need to as a society and not respect it

socially. We need to call this shit out and not be like, oh, isn't that cute? You all like to wear

skirts and repress your women. Oh, you have the right to do that. That's super. And you do have

the right to do it. I have the right to say your batch of fucking crazy and these women. I hope to

God get away from you into so and you will never speak to you for the rest of your life and you

die in a flaming pit. But you know, that's my right to say that too. But we need to do more of this

rather than look at us. Oh, it's cutesy. Don't they make nice nice omelets when you stop at the

Amish restaurant or whatever insert religion that represses human beings here? You know, it's just

it's sickening. And I'm just I'm so sick. I'm pretending there's something moral or godly or

wonderful going on behind the closed doors at note. None of us see a total of fucking kids. But

but he it's like for for every person like that that thinks that it's just adorable and look

at how there's people like us. You know, but there's not enough. I know people are freaks.

You know, but you know, to each his own. Yeah, they're in lies the rub, but like ultimately

the accountability aspect of it and it's it's that thing where you're you're really from the law

enforcement side of it. You know, when they're trying to infiltrate, it's so damn hard. It is.

That protective bubble. It's like, I've done like, you know, my king with his, you know, it was

got his channel profiling evil. But like when he went in and was able to infiltrate that

particular cult down there where they had done essentially the same thing. They had essentially

bought like an entire neighborhood. So they were insulated from the outside world. And it's those

kids that are that are born into it. Yeah, that you're concerned with more than anything else.

Because consenting adults, you know, I always sit here and wonder how do people get brainwashed

like that? I'm talking about like doctors and educated people where I'm always like, nobody's

ever brainwashed me. And it's crazy. But then you see people on an on an equal educational level

that are brainwashed into it. And it's, you know, I mean, obviously you have to deep, you know,

dive deep into what's going on with that person that puts them in a unique position to be

so susceptible to it. Yeah, acceptance and validation is a very, very powerful level of influence

over people. And when you use that acceptance and validation and you throw some love bombing in

there and you're valued and seen for who you are and you have any inkling of not having that in

one aspect of your life, I don't care how educated you are. I don't care how emotional intelligence

you are. You can be extremely susceptible to it. I do believe, though, that when you, as I

was talking to Tony about this, you know, hard to imagine us like people that really dive deep and

try to understand what's going on here, not not being inoculated against it. I do think we're

inoculated against it just because we're fascinated by it. But yeah, that's what it comes down to.

You know, when groups and organizations offer a path to calm the chaos in your brain.

And they always start out with the high level love bombing or validation or seeking them

accepting all the things that are brain, the big four firing when you're getting. And they're not

getting it from any other aspect of their lives. That's when it starts getting rooted and it starts

getting some traction. And then it's the slow build. It's the grooming into it.

And man, there's so much. And there's going to be a lot more to come on these.

And I hate that case. I hate it. I like the case we're going to be talking about later today.

That's that's what I like seeing happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've been looking for that one, Bob.

Your thoughts, your thoughts in the comment section on sub stack and YouTube. We'd love for

you to weigh in and and give us your thoughts. Want more on this case and others? Then press

subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Brusky and the Hidden

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