E304: Jesus Has a Name For You and It Changes Everything w/Jamie Winship | Lila Rose Show

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Simply our true identity is defined by who God says we are.

When you're self-protecting and self-promoting, then you're never going to operate in the truth

of who you really are.

I was asking, what would Jesus do to end drug problems in a neighborhood?

He would go find the drug dealer and probably go eat dinner with him.

And so that's what I did.

I was in uniform and I asked him to spend the weekend.

At your house.

Yeah, he spent the weekend.

I believe that God's inviting me to hear.

Why aren't you walking towards that?

And I promise you the reason you're not here.

Fear.

You're afraid.

When the enemy comes to Jesus' temptation is, if you are the son, it's a salt immediately

on the identity that God has given.

And we believe the accusation and deception, we empower the enemy.

The enemy doesn't have the power until we give in.

We have this crisis today, I believe, of people not really living in their identity.

It seems like the modern world today often defines identity by superficial things like

your sexuality, your job, your career.

And I shouldn't say it's totally superficial that these things do matter.

But what would you say our true identity is defined by?

Well, I mean simply our true identity is defined by who God says we are.

That's simply it.

Who does God say that I am?

And that very powerful phrase of I am when you ask God's identity and God says I am that

I am, he's the core of existence in life itself, then the question would be then to the Lord,

who do you say that I am?

Who do you say that I am?

Not what do I do?

Not what did you make me for?

But who do you say that I am?

Because being always informs doing, always.

Whether you agree with that or not, what you do is because of how you see yourself,

what you believe, who you believe yourself to be.

And it can't be avoided, that is, you are going to give away what you believe yourself

to be, who you believe yourself to be.

If someone is listening right now, Jamie, who feels like they're not fully where they

need to be in life, they're not fully there, what advice would you give to them?

We call it the check-in process, really it's just the process from Scripture that we

find, which is, I mean, in sort of liturgical terms, it's confession, repentance, transformation.

In another way to say it, confession is truth-telling.

Repentance is mind-change and transformation is form-change.

So confession, repentance, transformation, I was raised that that meant I'm sorry, I'm

really, really sorry, and I hope I never do that again.

It's not effective, that's all willpower, that's all that is.

And willpower doesn't work, especially in trauma.

Confession is truth-telling.

So truth-telling, when I tell God the truth about what I believe about God, about myself

and about others, the truth of what I really believe, that's confession.

Confession, truth-telling, leads to freedom always.

So confession allows for mind-change.

No one's ever going to change their mind if they never tell the truth.

I mean, this is why we're always stuck in these arguments that no one can get out of

because no one will tell the truth.

And I'll tell you what the truth is in a minute.

But so you have to have truth-telling before you can have any sort of mind-change.

You cannot have form-change unless you have mind-change.

So no matter what you do, you can go in and force form-change.

You can do it.

You can try it all day long.

Empires try this all the time, enforced form-change.

Nothing changes.

Nothing gets better.

And the old patterns will just start again with a new leader, so to speak.

So this is the ancient way of the gospel.

Truth-telling mind-change, form-change.

So when a person says I'm stuck, first of all, that's never a true statement.

No one is ever stuck.

That's just that's something a conclusion they've come to based on external circumstances.

The truth-telling always begins in a human.

Our question always to every human is, especially if they're frustrated or stuck is, tell me

what you're afraid of.

That's what it is.

What are you afraid of?

The fear, humans can only make decisions either out of fear or love.

That's the only two options we have, fear or love, ultimately.

It doesn't matter what your background is, what religion you're from, what you believe

about God or not, your motivation is either love or fear.

And let's face it, 99% of us make decisions solely out of fear.

Not necessarily I'm a coward, but I'm self-protecting and self-promoting all the time.

That's what I'm doing.

And so when you're self-protecting and self-promoting, then you're never going to operate in the truth

of who you really are, because you can't connect with other people really.

So we always ask people, either just tell me straight out, tell me what you're most afraid

of in life, or today.

Or what is the main negative emotion that you're dealing with on a regular basis?

One of those two, they're diagnostic questions.

And all what we're getting the person to do is just learn to tell the truth.

I'm afraid of those people.

I'm afraid of them.

I'm afraid of having no money.

I'm afraid of having these people in charge of me, whoever they are.

I'm afraid of it.

So based on that fear, what do you believe about yourself?

What does that say about you?

I'm powerless, right?

I'm powerless.

I have to find some way to self-protect and self-promote against these fears.

And when people are making those sorts of decisions, the result is always conflict.

Unavoidable, it results in conflict.

So at the most human level, that's what I say to people, we're stuck.

We can't get out of this situation.

So what does that make you feel?

Afraid.

Afraid of what?

That I'm powerless.

That's an identity statement.

I am powerless.

That's an identity statement, right?

It's not a condition.

It's an identity statement.

Okay, what does a powerless person do?

Either they fight or they give up.

In some form or fashion, that's their only two options, right?

What does a powerless group do?

They either fight or they give up or their expression is either we're going to go prove

that we are powerful or we're going to destroy ourselves in some form or fashion.

We'll self-medicate or whatever and destroy us.

I mean, it's that basic.

It's that simple.

And we just complicate it with more fear.

So that's kind of how we operate.

All right.

So there's so much to unpack there.

And I want to walk through how you approach people truly listening for God's voice.

And you help people with this practice of better understanding God's voice and their true

identity and how to live in that freedom.

So they can become, you know, the poo there are called to be.

I want to go back a few steps towards how you got into the identity business slash mission.

What was it that first got you?

Even aware that this was a problem of people not understanding their true identities and

then seek to find a solution for it.

Right.

Yeah.

So it's a bit of a process and it's a bit of revisionist.

Of course, you learn something in your life and you go backwards and go, oh, that's where

that's why I believe that because you're not thinking about it in the process.

Unfortunately, we could be and we should be, but we're not.

And we could teach kids how to be doing it pretty regularly instead of when they're

50 deciding, wow, I don't even know what I'm doing.

And so for me, though, I always wanted to be a police officer.

And so I was on my way to that.

Even my experience in deciding that and this is important that that's what I wanted to be.

That's how I would say it.

It isn't what I wanted to do.

It's what I wanted to be.

This isn't really important when you're talking to kids.

Not what do you want to do?

Because that sets them on the wrong path.

Maybe you want to be or who do you want to be?

So anyway, I had this experience watching a movie.

Like a lot of people do and I saw this movie about a police officer and it how old were

you Jamie 14, 14 and I was raised in a family we're going to movies was ungodly, right?

So even the environment in my I'm in I was taught externally that this environment is

a place where God can't speak, right?

So I have a notion already built into me that there are locations on earth where God cannot

work or be, which is, you know, can't be true.

But I know lots of people that think this way.

Anyway, so I'm 14, I know God can't go into a theater.

So for me to go in the theater is an act of rebellion, right?

So I'm in there.

The movie comes on and it's this beautiful movie, one of the Academy Award that year.

And it's about a police officer and I have, and this thing happens inside of me that

I had never experienced before the beauty of the music, the skill of the acting.

It's like you're reading a really good meal.

You're not a chef.

You don't know what it is exactly, but wow, do you know it's there?

And so I've never experienced anything like this in the story, the story arc, all of

it is so beautiful to me that it names me, you know, the literary term, it calls me,

which is very beautiful and very human and very divine, actually, it's very romantic.

And so that's happening inside of me and I actually start crying, but I don't know why,

like I don't know why, because it feels very spiritual to me, but I know spiritual's

not allowed in this location.

This is what messes us up.

It's all been defined to me where these things can and cannot occur and what it looks like.

So that's a very narrow view of it all.

So art has a very narrow view.

Anyway, I feel a sense of calling to this character more than anything else.

And so I do what I do in my, our religious tradition was if you have a conviction, you have

to go forward and make some kind of commitment.

I mean, that's all I know, like God can't do anything from the back row.

You got to go forward.

And so at the end of the movie, I went forward, like I, it's what you do.

And so I went forward at the end of the movie, everyone left.

I'm just standing there crying at the front of the auditorium, looking up at the projector

saying, that's what I want to be, that's what I want to be.

And I make a commitment to the sky, be again, because I couldn't, I didn't understand

how God would be here.

He's limited to places.

And so, and I just make a commitment that I'm going to be a police officer.

And it's going to look like that.

That's how that was a metaphor, because we can only think in symbols and metaphors and

pictures.

That's how humans think.

And so I see this picture, this police officer, and he loves opera music, and he lives

in New York City, and he rides a motorcycle.

And so that for me is the metaphor of what I want to be.

So when I leave there, I'm going to be a police officer, I'm going to be a police officer,

I'm going to be a police officer who understands opera, because the character did.

I'm going to be a police officer who rides a motorcycle, because it's been modeled to me

in such beauty, I want to be this.

So when I leave there, eighth grade, all the way through high school, I never, I decide

I'm not going to commit any crimes.

My friends start committing larcenies, and so I'm not going to do it.

Why?

Because I'm spiritual?

No.

Because my sense of who I am doesn't allow this.

Right?

I'm trying to not sin.

It's like, if I do this, I can't be this.

This is that simple.

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As you go on this explanation of this journey of you beginning to understand identity and

your identity, you weren't raised with some kind of Christian faith because there was

morality that they were trying to instruct you on.

Can you just share briefly, did you have a belief that your family shared about Jesus

Christ the Son of God?

Was that something that you had already ascended to?

At this point, you hadn't fully integrated them with this sense of calling to be a police

officer, but you still believe both to be true.

God is real.

Jesus is God.

I want to follow him.

And also, I have to be, I want to be a police officer.

As much as a 14-year-old can understand Jesus as God.

Yeah.

I pray every night that I wouldn't go to hell, you know, that Jesus would save me from

hell.

I had that drilled into me.

That's why I was afraid to go to a movie theater, right?

Because I had that God was a very strict moral God.

Yes, and Jesus died too because of the wrath of God.

I mean, I heard that every day of my life.

What was interesting to me was how that wasn't beautiful to me.

That message wasn't beautiful to me.

It was like, okay, that's a tree you got to deal with that.

This was beauty.

This was like the best news I'd ever experienced in my life.

If you asked me which one of these two was good news, I would have said the movie theater.

The other one was just a fact of life and you got to deal with it and here's the way

you deal with it.

But it's not necessarily fun or anything.

But, I mean, I'll go, and that's identity too.

That'll come back to the identity.

So if you asked me my identity before that movie, I would have said sinner.

That's what I would have said.

Even though I was saved, you know, I was still identified as sinner.

That's what I would have called myself.

I am a sinner.

Did you ever growing up hear the language of you are a son of God adopted into his family

most beloved, you know, called for great things destined for heaven?

Like, was that any of the language of your childhood?

Yeah, but once the fear is, once the fear is planted in deep, it's very difficult to

go to a, you know, it's like, it's like going to a God that you're terrified of and saying,

I want to receive all the good things you have for me because you're so fearful that

that you fall so short of it.

It's very hard to receive love from someone that you're terrified of.

So you're saying you did hear, you did grow up with the language of the true language

of you are a son of God.

He saved you.

He has plans for you.

There's big things.

But in the back of your mind, you were always little Jamie terrified that God was going

to smite you down and, and damn you to hell.

That's right.

If I, if I stepped off the path, if I could stay on the path that he might do it, but

he's pretty upset most of the time because I couldn't maintain the walk.

I mean, I couldn't do it.

You know, not to the standards that I heard you're supposed to, you know.

And so I was, I always felt guilty and I always felt shame.

And I mean, you know, most of the people, most of the people my age that I deal with are

dying in guilt and shame, though they're quite religious, though they're very religious.

Again, it's like, you know, it's like, this is kind of harsh, but it's like, it's like,

if you tell someone Jesus loves them and then hit them, you know, it's like it gets mixed

in their mind.

Like, which does he, what does he love me or is he or Jesus loves you?

But if you make one mistake, no amount of love is going to save you from hell.

That's right.

His love is very limited and very conditional.

He loves you as long as this is going on.

You step out of that.

You almost got to start over with him like that kind of thing.

It's so true.

You have to re-meet Jesus.

The Jesus that you were told about as a child, if the Jesus is so characterized as the

condemnor, the accuser, which is by the way, Satan, that's who Satan is, funny how we

mix these things up.

But if that is who he, God is as a child, even though you were told the name God, the

name Jesus, all of these things, and there were true things that were also said along

with the things that were taken out of their really context, I would say, is maybe the

way to put it.

You probably have a better, more artful way to say that.

Then you need to rediscover who your God even is and how to relate to God, your father.

Right.

So I knew, I knew that part of it.

So that's why when this happens to me, I'd

didn't immediately associate it with God as I understood God at the time.

I didn't know that that was the same thing.

Imagine my joy when I found out that was the true God, was the one that was in the theater.

And later I was like, that was you in the theater?

Oh, wow.

I didn't know that was you.

It's like Joseph, you know, when he wakes up from the dream and said, God was in this

place the whole time and I didn't know it.

You've been here the whole time and I didn't even know it.

My greatest joy is watching people discover that.

He's been with you your whole life.

This isn't a new thing.

He's loved you every day of your whole life.

You just don't know how to hear it because you're so used to hearing this other voice,

right?

Other voice says.

So I don't want to digress, but I was working with a bunch of school principals in

our city and I asked, you know, they're all PhDs and we're talking about identity and

I just started with the group and I said, how many of you driving in this morning could

hear a voice in your head that said, you're no good as a principal.

You're not good as a parent.

You're not raised your hand if you could hear that voice in your head.

Everybody in the room raises their hand.

And I said, so just we can all say together, we all hear voices.

So if I start talking about here and a voice, none of us are going to say that's irrational

or stupid or juvenile because you all were listening to voices driving here today.

The difference is the voice I'm going to talk about is never going to say that to you.

What this voice is going to say to you is, I've loved you with the never lasting love I

always have.

You just didn't know it.

You didn't know you could relax.

You didn't know you didn't have to fight.

You didn't know you didn't have to self protect and self promote.

You just didn't know it.

So let's silence these and let's turn this one up.

It's really all it is.

So to start with a notion of how do you get people to listen to God?

There are already listening to voices all the time.

Like they're doing that.

Humans do that all the time.

And so anyway, so when I came out of all of that and I went into high school, I just

was committed.

I was going to be this kind of police officer.

And when I injured my leg in a wrestling accident in high school, I was afraid I couldn't

pass the police physical.

I had to emergency surgery.

I wake up the next day in the hospital and I'm devastated.

And I asked the doctor, am I going to pass a police physical when I'm 21?

I'm now going on.

It's 18.

And he said, I don't know.

I'm so I'm devastated.

And I'm then now I can blame God for something.

That's handy to have God so you can blame him first.

So I was mad at him because he hurt my leg.

And this amazing nurse comes in the room.

This physical therapist comes in and sits next to me.

She was a single mom from West Virginia.

That's the only thing I know about her.

And she starts talking.

She says to me, hey, listen, your body will heal.

I'm here to help you get well.

The thing that's going to ruin you is the bitterness that you feel, the anger inside

of you.

This is what's going to ruin you.

Wow.

And she said, let's work on that.

And I knew that she was going to talk to me about Jesus or something like it.

And so I was so mad, I was so mad, I just cussed her out.

I mean, I just wouldn't even let her talk.

I just cussed her out.

I said, everything I could think of about her to insult her.

And she finally stood up and walked to the door and then she looked back.

I mean, she smiled and she said, okay, I'll see you tomorrow.

And she came back the next day like she'd never met me.

And I did it again to her.

I cussed her out.

I wouldn't work with her and she forgave me again.

She did it every day for five days.

And then she would work with me, but she just would smile at me and she goes, we've got

to work on this anger.

And I never have seen forgiveness like that ever in my life.

And I realized at now 17 going into 18 that if I was going to be a police officer like

I had in my heart, I would have to be like her.

And this is what I prayed.

I said, God, can you make me a police officer like she's a nurse?

And I realized that her identity wasn't coming from her vocation.

She was bringing her identity into her vocation and giving her not just her vocation to me,

but her identity as a gift to me.

Like her identity, I wish I'd never been able to find her.

I wish I could find her, but because as far as she's concerned, that was a waste of time.

But it was because of her that I had a model in my mind of if I walked into a domestic

spew or neighborhood or something and they start cussing me out, that's exactly how I

want to respond to them.

Just like she responded to me, I think that's how Jesus would have responded to me.

Like she did.

She didn't give up on me.

She didn't come in and say, you better shut your mouth or I'm never going to.

She just kept coming back like we never met.

And to me, especially now in my life, that's how forgiveness works.

It doesn't keep a list.

It doesn't keep a list of wrongs.

It comes back in like here we go, we're starting again.

And I thought, wow, if humans could be like that with people that are coming against

them, what could we do?

So now, and that she's the one, that woman, that amazing, beautiful person is the one

that caused me to come to God and say, if this is who you are, if this is what you offer,

I receive everything you have for me.

I want everything you have for me.

Because Jesus said, I didn't come to be served.

I came to serve.

And I'm like, if you came to serve me, for me to be like that, in order that I could turn

around and serve other people like she just did me, then Jesus would you serve me like

that.

Like he says to the Samaritan woman, if you drink from me, from you will flow the rivers

of living water.

Let me serve you first and then you serve others.

And so that was the model.

And then I knew when I went to university, those are the kind of people I wanted to find.

People like her.

If someone was going to mentor me, I needed to find people like her because they're hard

to find people like that.

Most people are quick to the battle, quick to the fight.

And she wasn't, but she was so much more powerful than me.

I knew it.

I was throwing all this rage at her and she would just, it would like, she would just

take it right out of the room.

And since then, I say all the time, the person in the room who's in the position to forgive

owns the room, they own the room.

So the best position to be in is to be in the position of the one who, who, who has the

power to forgive or who has been offended.

Sometimes we're in situations where like God, would you put us in a position to forgive

these people because we need the power of forgiveness to work here.

And unless they offend us or hurt us, we're not going to be able to forgive them.

It's a risky prayer, but it, it's an amazing prayer.

Hey everybody, thanks so much for listening to this conversation with me and Jamie.

If you're enjoying it, please hit that subscribe button and if you like this video, give it a

like and leave a comment.

We read all the comments.

Thanks so much.

So that's when I would say I really began to understand Christ as the scripture talks

about the good news was from her.

And then all the other stuff I learned growing up and all, you know, all started to come

together in the centrality of Jesus and the message of Christ.

Then so then I went into university and I found the wrestling coach was very similar to

her and I just attached myself to him.

And he was a disciplinarian, but he was like that.

He loved people.

He loved them.

But he was the number two in the nation wrestler, but his love was so great.

And yeah, and so then, then that, and then when I graduated, that my wife in university,

and when I graduated, went to the police academy, went on the street, I, and you know, didn't

take long on the street to realize what I learned in the police academy is not going to change

anything out here.

It's going to change because if it could, it would have already changed something and

nothing's changed, nothing in terms of all the evils, even not solving the problem of

evil.

Even on my own squad, it didn't work on my own squad.

We're in my own precinct among the cops.

It didn't work.

It wasn't happening there.

How's it going to, how's it going to happen?

You can't give away what you don't have, right?

You're going to give away who you are to people.

And so you can go to every tolerance training thing in the world, but I still don't like you

and I'm still afraid of you.

That only, as far as I know, only an interaction with Christ can alter that.

And so if you don't have that going on, you know, a lot of times I felt like, you know,

I mean, I worked cases that involved other officers off duty, right?

You know, it's not like there's some special breed of people that are this vocation.

They're just human beings like everybody else.

They get put in that position sometimes wrongfully.

I feel bad.

Like they're humans.

Give them a chance to be human.

They're not.

But so, but so then when I would go out on the street and someone would hate my guts,

I would walk into a situation and they hate my guts.

I would say, why do they hate me?

They don't know me.

What do they hate?

They hate my uniform.

What it represents.

They hate the color of my skin.

What it represents.

They hate my gender.

What it represents.

Like the hatred is already all built in.

But it's not me.

They hate.

It's what it's what I represent.

They're afraid.

It's they're afraid of it.

And the fear creates conflict.

Take away that fear and everything changes.

But if so, if you go into a fearful situation and you use fear on fear, it just escalates.

It just escalates and you can't de-escalate fear with fear.

And so the way that nurse de-escalated my hostility and really my fear, my fear if I'm not,

I don't have the future I was hoping for, it's gone.

And you're going to come in here and try and help me.

I'm going to fight you in every way.

The way she de-escalated and it's a really good actually interviewing technique now they

call it when the person goes T. Rex you go mouse.

That's the best interview style.

You take away the violence quick.

You don't match it because then it'll outkeep escalated.

You take it away immediately.

When I'm in a situation and I would say, okay, in the police department, they trained

us how to like break up as, you know, domestic disputes.

It's super dangerous for cops in a domestic dispute because your people turn on you really

quick.

You think you come in to resolve it and then this person turns on you and all that.

People get shot in those things.

But so my thing was, I don't know what to actually do to help this person.

So then my next question was as a person who believes in God, who trusts Christ.

The Bible says, if it's right, if it's true, we say we believe it, the Bible says you

have every spiritual gift in the heavenly realms right now.

That's what it says.

It says you have everything you need to pertain to life and godliness right now.

What you don't have is wisdom.

So you need to ask for wisdom.

So I'm in a high tension situation.

I'm going to ask for wisdom.

How is God going to give me wisdom right now?

Like if I ask him for wisdom, I need wisdom.

I don't know what to say to this person right now.

I need to know right now.

Does can God communicate a new idea, a way to talk, a way to think that I don't know yet?

Can he do it in the moment?

And if he does, and if he can, how does he do it?

And how would I know?

And I just started asking these questions like I think any good person trying to figure

anything out would ask.

And then I carried a notebook and I started writing down things that would come to my

mind.

Whatever you want to call that, contemplation, prayer, hearing from God, a great idea,

the mind of Christ, the spirit of the living God, all those beautiful words in Scripture.

Jesus says, it's better that I go, so I leave my spirit with you.

Why?

Why is that better?

And having him physically standing there, why is it better that he's inside of me?

It cuts down the time it takes for him to talk to get to hear from he's inside there

talking.

And so then I just carried a notebook and I said, and I would say, in this situation, Lord,

I know what to do training.

Why?

No.

But that's not going to work here.

And all I'm going to do is do the same thing that doesn't work.

And we're going to be back here again.

And we're going to do this again and again, my whole career.

And this neighborhood's not going to get better.

Unless we kill everyone in here or rest everyone in here or bulldoze the thing and build another

neighborhood.

That's our only options.

Or people are going to get transformed, but I don't ever see people get transformed.

So how do you do it?

We don't know how to do it.

And so I would just write down ideas and I would just try them.

I would say thing, I would have this idea come to my mind and I would say it, or I would

have an idea of what to do.

And then I would do it.

And what I learned in that process is the Lord is quite good at communicating to humans.

It's kind of what the Bible is all about.

And he communicates to us in the truth of who we are, in the truth of who we are.

So you're made very unique by God.

You're very distinct, unique human being.

And just like your parents might have other, I have three sons.

They're all sons of windship.

They're all inheritance and herders of everything that I have.

They're all loved by me.

But I don't call them windship one, windship two and windship three.

They're incredibly distinct identity.

Are they all my sons?

Yes.

Do I love them all?

Yes.

Are they all in get the inheritance?

Yes.

But they're so different.

And so I talk to each one of them differently.

I treat them differently.

And so that's how God is with us.

So He knit you together very beautifully and distinctly.

And He is not going to treat you and talk to you like He does some other person.

Because then that's to deny your uniqueness.

He knows everything you're most afraid of.

You're afraid of things I'm not afraid of.

I'm afraid of things you're not afraid of.

So He talks to you need encouragement in areas I don't.

I need it in areas you don't.

So we have this amazing God that loves us at that level.

And He understands where were you wounded in your life.

I'll speak to you.

I know that about you.

Even your closest spouse may not know the depth of those things in you.

But I do and I will speak to them.

That's why you can't get your identity from another human.

We try to all the time which leads to break down in relationship because you can't get

that from another person.

We try all the time.

And then we try and get identity from them.

They try and get identity from us and it doesn't work.

So that's what I would do.

I would just ask the Lord, and then I would say, what would you do here?

How would I do this?

And then I would write down and I would just try it.

And I found out this is like really smart.

Like this is a really smart way to be a police officer.

Yeah.

I mean, I can do everything I'm trained, but there's another level too.

And I can just live like I'm trained or I can go to this next level which we would say

if I'm going to, you know, you can't innovate, no human can innovate without contemplation.

No human can innovate without contemplation.

I don't care if you're an atheist.

I don't care.

Human minds cannot innovate without contemplation first, which means if you're going to be an

expert in something, you need to be an expert in contemplation.

What is contemplation?

An inner spiritual life.

And that's why we do it in places that are considered secular because there's no such thing

as that either.

Do you all want to innovate in this vocation?

If you're going to, if you're going to innovate, the human brain can't innovate without contemplation.

Otherwise, you'll just imitate, which is the only thing we ever do is imitate.

That's why nothing changes.

We can't stop school shootings.

We haven't figured that out.

They're more all the time.

We could stop them though.

We could completely stop them.

I know we, of course we can, but now we think we can't.

Now we've kind of given up.

Now it's just we're going to fight, which is what we always, no, we're just going to fight

the bad guys.

We could end this whole thing.

We could totally do it, but we're going to have to innovate to do it and to innovate,

we're going to have to have deep contemplation and we're going to have to do things that

we wouldn't just come up with in our own strength and power.

And so to me, you're back to, you probably better have a relationship with a God who loves

you in order to get to that kind of level of contemplation.

Otherwise, I always say this, it doesn't take any creativity to lock someone up or kill

them.

Zero thinking.

Zero creativity.

We can all do that.

That's always an option.

Is there any others?

Are there any others?

Because we can always end up on that one.

My frustration is we always end up on that one.

That's the one we always end up on.

Why?

Why?

Why?

So that's how, so I did that.

Got recruited by the State Department because of what I was doing in the police department.

They called me.

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When you were doing this, you were praying on the job.

You were praying through your work.

You were inviting the Holy Spirit into your work, and you were asking for special wisdom

for how to be a Christian police officer, a Jesus follower police officer, which is

going to transform not just how you do your job, but the lives of the people that you

encounter.

Can you share any stories about what kind of impact you saw that have?

Maybe you didn't see much because that's God's, you know, God does the fruit we do, the

sowing sometimes.

But did you have any stories about what would happen when you would say, Lord, inspire

me here.

You maybe took it out a note.

Maybe you're in the middle of the domestic dispute, the wife and the husband are about

to kill each other, and you're all of a sudden say, let's go out for pancakes, you know,

I don't know.

I'm just making something up, you know, Holy Spirit.

But can you share any any anecdotes from that time?

For example, so we were working in a low income neighborhood and, you know, trying to stop

the drug problems in these neighborhoods, and you're just never going to do it.

You just can't do it.

And so I was asking God, what would you, how would you stop drugs in a neighborhood?

What would you do to end drug problems in a neighborhood?

And I mean, as soon as like you have the idea, it's like, well, of course, that's what

you would do.

Of course, what would Jesus do to end the drug problem?

He would go find the drug dealer, right?

The high up is he can find and probably go eat dinner with him.

And so that's what I did.

I went and I located the highest level guy I could find that we knew was doing it, and

I just found him.

I was in uniform and I said, listen, I would love to have you come eat there at my house.

I'm inviting you.

And in fact, I'd like you.

At your house.

And to spend the weekend, he spent the weekend.

And I said, would you come spend the, did you have kids at this point?

No.

But now my, yeah, my kids are experts at the, because then they, my kids grew up in the

Muslim world doing this.

This is just me in a neighborhood in the US doing it.

They could do it in an Islamic neighborhood.

But I did, this was the practice was the police department and I just, and he said to me,

I've never, no police officer has ever invited me to their house for dinner.

And I said, and I've never invited a drug dealer to my house for dinner.

So, whoa, this will be a first time for both of us.

We'll see what happens.

But why is it the first time?

Why have we never thought of this?

Like we have a Bible.

Well, when Jesus too, it's kind of the thing he does.

So, but, but the guy has to be willing and I have to go try and, and could he murder

my family?

There's the fear.

He comes and Donna makes feeds, you know, feeds them and, and he, we call it getting

their fists down.

His fists are like this.

His whole life has been like this.

And when we come to him, our fists are up.

That's how we start.

It's like how, where are we going to go from there?

And so his fists are down and I'm minor down and I said to him, look, he, and this is

when I started to think about identity, we're in these years.

And I'm like, I said, how do you like identify yourself?

Like how do, what do you call yourself?

You know, and he said the name of his gang, he said I'm the leader of the gang and, you

know, and he didn't call himself a drug dealer.

That's not the name he called himself.

He was, he was the leader of a gang.

There, he was very proud of it.

And he said, what do you call me?

And I said, I think you're like an unbelievably good entrepreneur because you've got a, you've

got a thriving business and we're trying to put you out of business every day and we

have a bit, we will, we're going to eventually and you're going to lose.

But to date, you're making a profit in a market that the whole government's trying to put

you out of business and you're, and you're still doing it.

You're successful and you're incredibly brave.

Like how much courage does it take to do what you're doing?

Like because you know, you're going to end up in prison eventually and yet you'll

still do it.

You know, like, and so I said, so if you're brave and you're courageous and you're obviously

smart, you know how to, you know how to employ people, you do, you have hiring practices,

you have, you have a kind of fraternity going, you have an enforcement program.

And I said, you can do all that.

Why don't you do it in a world where you're not going to go to prison?

Why don't you come out and do it with us in our world?

Come out in our world and do it and stop doing it in the shadows.

Why are you afraid to come out into our world?

Go world and do it.

Do you know why he's afraid to do it?

I'm not smart enough.

That's his identity.

I'm too dumb.

Wow.

I can't do it.

I can't do it in the real world.

I'm not smart enough.

And my question is, who told you, when did you learn you're not smart enough?

Who told you that?

No human is born thinking they're not smart enough.

They're told they're not smart enough.

They're told they're not pretty.

They're told they're not a good singer.

They told they're ugly.

Sooner or later, they're told that and that's when they start pulling an identity.

Oh.

And here are the facts to prove that you're not smart enough.

You're out of the school and it's not true.

It's not.

It's never been true.

And so I walked him through.

Like look, you already do everything that a person whose identity is a good entrepreneur.

Dude, all it is is you're afraid.

You're afraid to go out there and fail.

Do you know how many humans are afraid to fail every day?

All of us.

All of us.

And how many of us are ego maniacs trying to prove how powerful and successful we are?

All of us.

All of us.

Telling everyone how great we are and trying to show all of our accolades and everything.

It's our whole culture.

And so when a person can't make it in that, would they either go to war or they shoot themselves,

one of the two, self-destruct.

And so when I said, listen, here's what you lack.

Connection.

You don't have, you don't have, you're separated from what's true and real in the world.

I will be your connection.

I will be your community.

Calm out.

I will, I will walk with you in this because it's going to take a lot of courage.

And I will walk in you and he said, why?

He said, why?

You know what I said?

Because I had a nurse that kept coming back to me and forgiving me every day because I

was afraid when she came into room and I said, I'm going to pay her back.

I'm going to thank her for doing that.

And that's how, and he ended the drugs in the neighborhood.

He did it.

He and he stopped after that dinner because he took all the guys out of it and got them

into legitimate business.

We're kidding.

Why not?

Why would any?

He's like, I got a way to make money.

It's an amazing story.

It's an amazing story.

What's sad is it's amazing.

It should be the norm.

I'll tell you right now and I can't need it.

It should be the norm.

It should be the believers ought to be leading this all of the time.

This is, this is our man, Jamie.

This is our gift to the world.

But we're exactly like the rest of the world.

We're self-protecting.

We're self-promoting.

We're in our gangs.

We're in our groups and we're at war.

We're just at war all the time.

I follow the Prince of Peace.

Let me give you another example.

So I mean, once I saw that work, I couldn't wait to go on the job.

I couldn't wait.

It wasn't like how many people could I arrest.

It was like how many times, how many times can the city pay me to do this?

Like this is, I'm a, the motto on our car is serve and protect.

That's our motto.

Serve and protect.

We're not serving anybody.

Well, there's a difference in law enforcement between serve and protect and law enforcement.

We have to decide.

Are we law enforcers?

Are we servers and protectors?

Servers and protectors can transform an entire city.

Law enforcers are going to be at war every shift every day because they don't care about

people.

They care about enforcing the law, which has nothing to do with humanity or community.

Servers and protectors can end crime because the people they're serving and protecting

are the cause of the crime.

And so you, you win them, the crime stops.

So I did, I started doing that and it, I developed a reputation for it.

And so, you know, one case I worked where there was a kid, an apt kid, a missing kid.

And I just, I was working the case and I just asked God, do you, can you find people?

Like do you do that anymore?

I read that you could in the Bible.

Like did you go out of that business?

Because somebody told me you did.

I mean, somebody told me you went out of that business, did you?

I mean, I've never asked you, God, I've always just listened to what this person says

or this person says, can you find people?

And if you can, how would we know?

Like would you, would we hear a voice?

Would you, would we have a feeling inside?

Any kind of, any normal human being would experiment trying to figure out something is

all I'm doing.

That's all I'm doing.

The amazing thing that I didn't know is how much God loves that and responds to it.

It's like he says, ask, seek, knock, ask, seek, and we don't think we just, we don't do

it.

It's, I mean, what you're saying is such a, it's resonates so deeply with me because

in my life, every single time I've asked, seeked or knocked with faith, of course, saying

Lord here, you know, here I am in my, even in my disbelief, my little mustard seed,

whatever it is.

Right.

He, he, he, he always shows up in mysterious ways, but how often we just don't ask, seek

or knock.

We'll ask, seek or knock, maybe in a moment of desperation.

But even then, we're not really inviting the Lord in often because we're doing it out

of fear and just like to, you know, take this immediate pain away or whatever the thing

is.

But it's just amazing what the Holy Spirit will do for his people if we're willing to

ask, seek and knock.

So anyways, you're, you're sharing the story.

You're the kids kidnapped.

There's a, the, how old was the child and we, do we know how old the kid was?

The third grade from a bus stop, so abducted from a bus stop.

That is so terrifying.

This is in the 80s.

Like, so it never happened.

I mean, we didn't have this stuff happening in the 80s and we don't have computers and

any of that stuff.

It's just so random, you know, and, and that we find out from the school, which is like

two hours after it's happened.

So it's like, you don't really have a chance.

You make sure it's not a domestic dispute, it's not a domestic dispute.

That kind of thing.

And then it's like, what are we going to do?

And so I had been talking to the father and I was super frustrated and, and I said, I

know we can find this kid.

I said that to the father and he's like, I hope, and then I got in trouble because you

don't say that.

You're not allowed to say that stuff, obviously.

And then I just, I drove away from the scene and I was sitting on a side road and I was

like, I, can you find kids?

I don't know.

Can you find kids?

Because this doesn't seem right.

Like this doesn't seem right.

And I was, I had little kids at the time and I was like, I would be heartbroken over

this.

God, like, can you find kids?

And how do we know if you do?

And this car came down the street by me on the side street driving slow and I looked over.

And here's the thing about prayer.

When you ask God a question, wait for an answer.

Like don't ask him, walk away, wait, look, search.

We just ask him, walk away, look, pay attention.

And when you ask him a question, pay attention to everything around you.

Don't expect him how he's going to answer.

Like he can, he's, God, he loves to wow you.

He loves to show you a million ways that he can love you and talk to you and use all

your different faculties is so beautiful.

So you can't put him in a formulaic box.

He won't do it.

He won't get in that.

He's the mysterious free God.

So Israel had such a hard time with him because they couldn't control him like an idol.

Like we, it will make our own God so we can control him and he's always on our team.

This God doesn't seem to always be on our team even.

He's not on your team.

He's not on anybody's team.

He's the team.

And so that frustrated us and so I look over in this car and it's just a guy driving.

But when he looks back at me, I get really sick to my stomach, really not just like someone

punched me.

And I was like, oh my gosh, is that it?

Is that how you, and so I stopped the car.

He made him open his trunk and the kid was in the trunk of the car of that car.

What?

And so yeah.

The kidnap child.

The third grade error was in the trunk of this car that you got of six stomach over.

Yeah.

And this was, you know, 40 years ago, whatever it was, long, long ago.

And so like, I got office of the year for that.

What's crazy is like, so when the detectives came up on the scene, I mean, the guy driving

a car was freaked out.

He would keep going.

How do you know?

How did you know?

Who was the guy?

Who was the kidnap?

Just that.

I don't know, like a serial, whatever, drifted, third kind of guy.

He just kidnapped the kid and held him in the area and just waited till we all.

Was the kid tied up?

How did he keep him in the car in the trunk?

He was like holding him somewhere and just got him to get in the trunk and drove.

Kind of like it was a game kind of thing.

Wow.

Yeah.

The kid was so sweet.

I mean, he's.

And Jamie, he was just driving because this had been a few hours after the kidnapping.

The kidnap her was just driving the streets or what was the kidnap her?

He was waiting at a location hidden, you know, I don't know, a house or somewhere.

He pled.

I don't know.

And he knew that we would search like crazy for a while, but we couldn't stay there forever.

And we would get frustrated and he just was waiting and we didn't have a description

of a vehicle.

And so he was just waiting till everything kind of calmed down.

He just was slowly just driving out of the area.

I didn't see anything that dramatic for a long time after that.

It was just like the Lord saying, this is what is possible.

Don't tell me, don't say what I can and can't do.

I don't care what another person teaches you that I can and can't do.

You ask me what I can and can't do because honestly, a lot of our information about

God comes from other people telling us what God can and can.

Most of our information about even who we are comes, all of it comes from what other

people say about us.

That's what hurts us.

Well, what does God say about you?

I don't know.

I've never asked him.

I only know what these people say.

He probably thinks about me based on these things in my life.

And I'm like, well, that's not him.

Ask him, if I, if I'm with a group of men and I say, do we all believe that Jesus is

right here with us right now?

Oh, yeah.

We all believe that he's right.

Okay.

So right here.

Look right in his face right now.

Look in his eyes and go, tell me exactly truthfully what kind of dad do you think I am?

And they don't want to do it.

Why?

They're afraid.

Why?

Because they know he'll condemn them.

That's why.

And I'm like, who said he would condemn you?

Who said?

And because they think you will, they will not go to him.

We love him because he first loved us.

This is the good news.

We didn't love him first.

He loved us first.

And then he demonstrated his love to us.

Wow, we were his enemies.

He died for us.

This is all while we don't like him.

He's doing all this while we're his enemy.

Now you're coming to him and saying, I just want to know what you really think about me.

What do you think he's going to say now that you're trying to be his friend?

Right?

How much more now that we call him friend?

Like, yeah, but I'm his worst enemy.

That's when he died for you.

That's when he demonstrated his love for you when you were his spitting on his name.

When you would have joined the crowd to kill him, that's when he loved you.

That's how he was showing his love for you.

Why do you think now he doesn't like you?

Because you, whatever you did, whatever you did, it's the best, I don't know, better news

than this stuff.

The part that you've speak to so beautifully is that he died for you.

He rose for you and then he gave you his spirit and said, you know, live life and

full and go out and make disciples of all nations and you're going to see greater works.

You know, then you even saw with me.

I mean, it was like, now it's on, you know, it's not like he died for you and then like

you miserable worm still, you know, like he died for you and he rose for you and he gave

you the spirit and, you know, now it's the kingdom of heaven is here.

You know, it's wild and we can't even comprehend it because we're always thinking, we're always

thinking in our worldly way and we lose the heavenly reality that we should be walking

in every day.

That's right.

I mean, a book I just wrote is on worldviews because this is what hurt kills us.

This is our worldview, even as Christians, our worldview is wrong.

And which is another topic, but it's this, we're looking at the world through a lens

of separation.

Like that's how we look at the world, whether we grow up in a Christian home or not,

we're still looking at the world through a certain worldview.

This is what Moses is trying to explain to the Israelites in Genesis and Exodus and

Deuteronomy and all of them.

He's saying, we can't build a new nation with an empire worldview.

And that's all they had.

That's all they knew was empire worldview.

He's saying there is a whole another worldview that's built on connection, not separation.

And they had it, that's what going through the wilderness was to wean them of the separation

worldview and to introduce them into the connection worldview, which is like, God is in front

of you.

He's behind you.

He can feed you.

He can protect you.

You don't have to go out there and fight everyone that, you know, it's not like how fast

can I self protect and self promote?

It's like no, no, it's like we're going to be, we're going to be a nation that's different

from anything that's ever existed.

And when people look at this nation, they're going to go, wow, there's a whole another way

to do this whole thing.

We don't have to brule the world.

We can influence the world.

It's very different.

We can, you know, we can law enforce or we can be servers and protectors in the world.

What Jesus didn't come to rule the world.

He came to serve and protect the world by bringing absolute spiritual transformation and

taken away our fear.

Number one, exhortation, scripture, don't be afraid.

I ask people all the time, what would the world look like if we weren't afraid of anybody?

What if we just weren't afraid of each other?

We would probably share stuff, but we can't.

We can't.

Because if we give it to them, then we don't have it.

And there's not, and scarcity dominates us.

And that's what you said earlier, then a falsehood scarcity doesn't exist in the real world.

Scarcity does not exist anywhere in reality.

It's a, it's a human conscience.

What does that mean?

So, so in nature, there's no such thing as scarcity.

There's no such thing.

The whole system runs without this fear of like, oh, no, I'm a lion.

I better kill every single analog for five years.

So I can store up a bunch of analogs in case there's a bad year.

You kill one, that's enough.

That's it, that's the end, right?

Even though there's 3,000 analog out there, you kill one.

And the next time you kill one is the next time it's necessary to do that.

There's no scarcity, there's no sense of scarcity.

Even in a predator, there's no sense of scarcity.

But in, in all of nature, there's no sense of like, man, we oak trees better get together

because these pine trees are going to take this place.

It doesn't exist.

Scarsity only exists where humans create it.

Humans create scarcity.

We do.

And so when Israel's taken out out of the Egyptian empire mentality into the wilderness,

God is showing them.

There's, tell me what, it's scarce out here.

Food.

No, it's not.

Water.

No, it's not.

There is no scarcity.

There is no scarcity.

But if you, if you create scarcity, you're going to war.

You're going to war.

And so what happens is so we create scarcity.

And then we say it's the reality.

This is the great lie that we live in.

We create these conditions and then we say it's real.

And we have God's reality, which we say is dream land, fairy tale world.

And so the thing is upside down.

And so it's just incredible when you're watching Jesus moving around and the disciples

wake them up in the storm and see and they go, don't you see the reality of this situation?

Here's the reality.

You don't, you don't care that we're going to die.

Here's the scarcity level.

Your love is scarce, apparently, because you don't love me enough to protect me.

So even the love of God is scarce.

He loves certain people, but not me because I sinned and I'm not worthy.

And we're going to, you don't care that we're going to die.

Like you don't care and the reality is this is going to kill us.

And none of it's true.

Everything they just said is false.

But in their brain, it's all real.

And so what is the reality producing them?

Absolute self-protection and self-promotion.

Absolute like we got to do whatever we got to do to save ourselves in this situation.

And Jesus wakes up.

He's not, he's not freaked out.

He's not like, oh gosh, why didn't you wake me up earlier?

Oh my gosh.

It's like he wakes up and then he just shuts the storm down.

And then it says they're afraid of him.

And then their fear shifts from, wow, who the heck is this?

Like who is this person?

And so that's the thing that the problem is, this is in my book.

I ask people all the time, tell me what there's not enough of in the world.

Tell me what there's not enough time.

Time is a absolute construct of measurement of movement.

It has no power, zero power.

It's not a living thing.

We've made it into a God.

We did.

We make time the God of our whole life.

It's not a God.

It doesn't even have any power.

We do.

There's not, how can there not be enough time?

Because we made time schedules and enslaved ourselves to them.

That's how idols weren't.

They have no power.

They can't talk.

But man, are we terrified of them?

What they might do?

Right?

We don't have enough time.

We don't have enough money.

We don't have enough food.

Can I explore that time question a little more?

I think that's extremely powerful what you just said.

This idea that there's not enough time.

There are so many people who think, well, I can't do X, whether it's love my child or accomplish

this thing for the kingdom of God or serve or help this person because they don't have

enough time.

So they might feel an inspiration towards something good, maybe a good work or something, and

they feel they don't have enough time, right?

Or they're just generally lamenting that they don't have enough time to pray, to be with

their own kids, to be with their spouse, to be with family, whatever, right?

Can you explain more what you mean by that as an idol actually?

And we're totally missing how God shows up in our life and how He would show up in our

life if we let Him.

So like the way Scripture talks about time is there's Kronos time, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,

and there's Kairos time, right?

And so Kairos time is like time.

These times when God just interacts, intersects with Kronos time.

Like beautiful moments in your life.

They could be seem insignificant, but they're really beautiful or, you know, I came to

faith in Christ or I met my spouse or these amazing moments.

And so if you think of your life as a Kronos line you're walking on, you're walking into

Kairos moments.

The Kairos moments don't, time doesn't pass.

Time doesn't move.

It can't move.

So when we say time is passing, that's not true.

It can't.

You're moving forward in time.

So time is set.

So all time is measuring is how long did it take me to go from here to here?

That took an hour.

So Israel's going to walk across this piece of land into the Kronos land.

How long is it going to take?

It could take them 11 days, which it could or 40 years, but nothing moved.

Nothing time didn't move.

They did this.

So when a person says I'm running out of time, I'm like, no, you're not.

Tell me what the, where are you walking to?

Where in your life?

I have, I want, I believe that God's inviting needs to hear.

Okay.

Why aren't you walking towards that?

What do you mean you're running out of time?

That means you're not moving towards it.

Like what are you doing?

You're walking in a circle.

You're walking that way.

You're not walking towards it.

Why are you not walking towards it?

And I promise you the reason you're not is because you're afraid.

You're afraid.

It's fair.

There's nothing to do.

And so we blame, we blame time, we blame money, we blame resources, we blame other

people, probably worst of all, right?

They're the problem.

For the reason why we can't ultimately, I mean, ultimately it's love.

That's what it is.

You know, these are all, come down to living a life of love, right?

And we give it, we have excuses endlessly for why these things are not possible.

We're actually the Holy Spirit could be inspiring us and urging us to become who we're created

to be.

But we're just like, I can't.

That's right.

We just can't.

And then we rationalize endlessly.

Right.

And that's a wrong view of God, a wrong view of yourself that leads to a wrong action.

Like God can't do it.

So I'm not even going to try and I'm going to run out of time.

He's not with me.

He won't be with me.

I'm not smart enough.

I don't have the resources.

Well, he'll supply him.

No, I don't think he will.

All the reasons you're just going to stand stuck.

But you're not stuck.

And so Israel walks 40 years in all these circles.

They get all the way to the location to walk in and they go, we can't walk in.

Why?

Why?

Because we're grasshoppers in our eyes.

There's the identity statement.

We're grasshoppers in our own eyes.

Not even in the enemies eyes, our eyes.

Not in God's eyes.

Our...

And we're scared.

And because we look in the mirror and see grasshopper, we quit.

And so did they run out of time?

So the Lord's like, well, we can't go in as grasshoppers.

So they walk...

They go walk in a circle.

After 10 years of walking in a circle, they could have said, you know what?

We changed our minds.

We repent.

We truth tell.

We're getting rid of the grasshopper thing.

We're back to...

We're more than conquerors.

Let's go in the Lord where I said, let's go.

10 years.

Do you want to go now?

No.

The Lord will never not go with you because always walking beside you going.

Do you want to go now?

Do you want to go today?

No.

20 years.

And then they start to die.

Those guys died.

Do you want to go now?

The whole generation dies.

But Caleb and Joshua never sit around going.

We're running out of time.

We're going to lose time.

At 80, it's like, you're ready.

Here we go.

And so why?

Because they don't...

They're not afraid of losing time.

Time doesn't decide whether they go in or out.

God it does.

But if we make time the God, you're not going to make it.

This idea of you have no time or we don't have enough time.

Are you dead?

If you're not dead, you've got the time.

So it's just like until you're dead, then your eternity.

But until then, you've got the time.

I tell people like, it's like you're standing on a beach and there's a hotel a mile away

and you go like, let's walk to the hotel.

Okay, great.

Lord, do you want us to go to that hotel?

Jack, let's go to that hotel.

And you start walking and one mile in, it's two miles away.

One mile in, you find a six pack of beer and you decide to drink it.

Okay, well, that's going to slow us down, probably for a while.

And then boy, I really love this alcohol.

And so I'm going to just drink for a while.

And then you wander off the road for 20 years.

We go get you, we bring you back sober, put you back on the trail.

The hotel is still there.

Let's go.

Let's go.

And the Lord says it like this, ask me and I will restore unto you the years the

locus have eaten away.

I will give you the time back.

Wow.

I've prayed that with so many guys in their 50s and 60s who are like, dude,

let's start.

Let's go.

Ask for the year, how many years did you space waste an addiction or whatever

you were in 35?

Lord, will you give me 35 years back and watch him do it?

Because what happens?

They get that they go, it's, oh man, I have so many stories.

Guys like one guy that I met that was crazy alcoholic.

He's in my first book and just super violent.

He was going to be a big football player and he got hurt in college and couldn't

play.

And he learned to be mad because his identity was football.

And so he learned his identity as football and you better be mean.

So from a little kid, his dad made him mean and he went to play and he was mean and

he was successful and got rewarded for being mean.

And then he hurts himself and he loses his scholarship, never passed a class.

He's out of college.

And so he starts drinking and he gets one marriage and then two marriages and he's super

violent and all this and I meet him.

I meet him.

He's like 45 now.

And he's violent as heck.

And so I meet him.

We start working together and like, what do you, dude?

What are you afraid of?

I'm just mad.

You're mad because you're afraid.

Mad is a secondary emotion to fear.

All mad people are just the matter you are, the more afraid you are.

Anyway.

And so I start meeting with him and we work through and what is he?

He hates himself.

He hates himself.

He's an embarrassed many failed.

He put all this stuff.

Yeah.

But when did, when did God doesn't call you a failure?

When did, who called you a failure first, his dad, his father.

Okay.

Let's go back to that day.

Jesus was with you on that day.

Jesus was there the day your father first said that to you.

What did he say to you on that?

This is contemplation.

What did he, what did he call you on that day when your dad said that to you?

He told me that he was proud of me.

Right.

He, he still is.

He's been proud of you the whole time because he's proud of you, not because of, that

you play football.

He's proud of you because he made you.

This is my beloved son and whom I'm well pleased.

Why?

Because he's my beloved son and whom I'm well pleased.

Why?

What did he do?

Nothing.

He's my beloved son.

He's proud of you because he made you and gave you this identity.

What does he call you?

And he said, I think he calls me counselor.

And I'm like, okay, well, in that identity, you're not a football player.

You're not even really me.

You're a counselor.

Who does he want you to counsel?

Families.

He's got two divorces and he doesn't even know where his kids are.

He's like, would God take someone like me and call me a counselor?

I would say, you would have believed the people in the Bible that he comes, brings into

redemption and calls amazing.

Like this is more accurate to what he would do.

You'll see it when we start reading the Bible together, but he takes rich traders to

the people of Israel and makes them the most generous people on the planet.

Do you know why?

Because they were always generous.

They became, they became hoarders out of fear.

I said, okay, beautiful.

Okay.

So today, what do we need to do for you to become a counselor to people?

And he goes, I guess I need a degree going back to college.

Let's go back to college.

I can't go back to college.

I'm 40.

Whatever.

So what?

So what?

You got to go back.

Why don't you want to go back to college because I look stupid.

Here we go.

Here's the fear.

Here we go again.

Me and another guy, we would go say, he's this big giant guy.

And walking into a community college classroom with a bunch of little 17, taking English 101

because he can't even write a freaking sentence.

But we went with him.

Like that's what the community, that's what community is for.

It's like, we'll sit with you.

What happened to this guy?

He's a family counselor.

He's got a graduate from a master's degree in the university that kicked him out.

He went back.

This is how the Lord does it.

He takes him back and goes, let's do it again.

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And he's practicing family therapy now out of a church.

His wife's a believer.

It's amazing.

It's amazing, but that's the story of God.

If we open our lives to the graces of God, we will see transformations everywhere in

our own lives and in others.

And we should consider that normal, not unusual.

It shouldn't be like, oh, this one guy one time was this crazy, you know, rage-filled

alcoholic and had broken marriages.

And then just God for just him, there was a special miracle.

And for just this one guy, he got this new start and now look what God has done.

No, no, no.

This described as supposed to be in the life of God's people normal.

That's right.

And that's right.

And it should just be normal.

And we as like, if you're a well person, you should be out finding the sick people and

help it.

I'm walk into this.

This is what this is why Moses is talking to people.

He's saying to them, we've started believing that separation is the way the world works.

The way the world works is connection.

Not everything in the universe is connected.

There's also in our reality, there's no empty space.

There's no such thing as empty space in our reality.

So anytime we're creating separation, it's like creating scarcity, we're creating a lie.

We're creating something that goes against the order of the universe that God put together.

And then we start calling it normal or real.

So when we start calling the lie reality, that's when we're in serious trouble.

Because we've took line and sinker bought the lie as if it's real.

And so when I'm talking to people, I don't say like, well, let's do it again.

Well, you don't understand reality.

I'm like, no, you don't understand reality.

You're buying this lie that you're in like it's reality, like you're not enough, like

there's not enough.

It's never been true.

It's never been true.

There's nothing in nature going around going.

There's not enough of time, nothing except humans saying that stuff.

Because nobody else believes the lie except humans.

And the story of the Eve and the garden and the story of creation, the word sin is not

used there.

The word sin doesn't appear until the story of Cain and Abel.

The word that what she does is she starts believing a lie about herself and about God.

She's God withheld and she's not enough and she doesn't have enough and he ain't going

to give it to her.

And if you want it, you got to go get it yourself.

There's the lie.

What's her lie?

Scarcity.

The God is scarce.

Where's he?

What's he doing?

Why didn't you give you that because he doesn't want you to be like him?

That's why.

Why?

Why does he want me to be like him?

That God is not good and generous.

I mean, that's that's part of that lie.

I mean, it's amazing to me to think about people that never step out in faith, whether

it's to love someone in a special way or to try something new or open oneself up

to something all out of love.

It all has to come back to love as the motivation, right?

That's correct.

But we don't because we're too old or too fat or too poor or not pretty enough or not

smart enough.

We're not, you know, God doesn't speak to me.

I'm not special.

I did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Right.

There's going to be like, you know, a million reasons, but how do you recommend people

discern?

Because let's say somebody's like, well, I don't know.

Maybe does God want me to do this thing or does God want me to try this thing?

And they're not sure how to determine, is this my just idea?

Someone else's idea.

It might kind of sound good.

It sounds scary as heck, but should I try?

Yeah.

So real quick process.

Simple.

I mean, you can even try this yourself.

I do this all the time.

We all do this is take a piece of paper at all of your viewers can do this.

Take a piece of paper.

And this is just a good practice to do.

Our teams do it before team meetings before business meetings.

We do this with groups of police officers like take a piece of paper.

And just, just, you know, breathe, try and call yourself down and just do this.

Write down all the names you believe about yourself that hurt you.

Just write down all the names you believe about yourself that hurt you.

Just try and write them down.

I'm ugly.

I'm all the things you just said.

I'm not smart enough.

I'm not lovable.

I'm too much.

Just write it.

They'll come to your mind.

They'll come to your mind.

Don't dig for them.

It's not psychoanalyzing.

I believe I'm a disappointment.

That's my big one.

I'm a disappointment.

I'm going to be I'm people are going to be disappointed in what I say or do.

Just write those and those are identity statements.

I am a disappointment.

I am fat.

I am ugly.

I am unlovable.

I am poor.

Those are all identity statements that are not true.

So you write them down.

This is that's truth telling.

That's what confession is.

God.

This is what I believe.

And you ask God.

Sure.

Search me and know me and reveal to me any way.

That's offensive in you.

What's offensive to God is that you call yourself things he doesn't call you.

That's offensive.

That offense him.

He has a name.

He calls you.

And you don't call yourself that.

You call yourself.

I name the enemy calls you.

And you live by it.

That offense him.

That a good parent who names their kid and they go get a name of some person that's destroying

them and use that instead of the name.

You gave him.

That's offensive.

He's not looking for you committed this sin.

It's like, what do you believe about yourself that I didn't ever set?

And so write those down.

That's confession.

And then imagine, be in prayer with Christ and hand him the list and say, Jesus, I give

to Jesus because he's the exact representation of the invisible God.

So we fix our eyes on Jesus.

We imagine, given the list, watch what he does with that list of all those names.

Watch what he does with it.

I'm not good.

I'm unworthy.

Give him the name, write down the name.

I'm unworthy and hand it to him and watch what he does with that piece of paper.

That's really beautiful.

In a group of people, the things they see Jesus do with that piece of paper is the most

liberating thing they'll ever see.

Because one thing he's not going to do is go, yep, that's right.

He's not going to, he doesn't do it.

He, he died to take that list away forever.

Why do we keep taking it back?

So you give him that list, give it to him.

And then we go around.

What did he do?

We do this in public schools.

It's incredible what kids say.

What did he do with the list?

He ate it.

He burned it.

He turned it into birds.

I mean, it's so, everything that's important to that person, he does it with that list, puts

it in his wounds.

It's incredible.

He's done this all over the Middle East because he, he talks to all people.

And so, and then, okay, it's gone.

Okay, now the house is swept clean.

But if you don't fill that house with truth, those names will come right back.

They'll be back here in 20 minutes, stronger than before.

So we sweep it, but we tear up those pieces of paper, whatever, blank piece of paper.

Okay, Jesus, I give you those names, I reject those names in the name of Jesus.

What do you say about me?

What do you say about me?

Get your pen ready and you write down what comes into your mind.

This is how you learn to listen to the voice of God and you, and you have to learn and

discipline yourself the way he talks to you because he talks to you distinctly.

It could be in pictures, it could be in words, it could be in Bible verses, and you

start to practice hearing the voice of the one who loves you and the one who knows you.

And you write down what you sense here feel see.

You start practicing like this, receiving from God, receiving from God, and then you share

it with the group.

Now, if someone reads out like, he said that I'm close, but not close enough to the community

will say, wow, and that doesn't line up with scripture at all.

And he says to you, we'll line up with how God talks to people in the Bible.

Is it profitable?

Is it good and pure and beautiful?

Does it fill you with joy?

Does it energize you?

Does it make you feel closer to him?

These beautiful, is it love, joy, peace, patience, goodness?

Does it promote that inside of you?

What does I'm ugly?

What does that do to you?

That's the word of the enemy.

What does his word do when you hear it?

Does it make you feel like, oh my gosh, that's so much more than me?

That's him.

This is a person hearing what the enemy says about him, and they go, you're not a good

husband.

Here's when Jesus talks, and this is what they do.

You're a mighty man of valor.

You're the deliver of a nation, who, who, me, you're kidding.

Because what he says to us takes faith to believe.

What the enemy says to us takes no faith to believe.

But when he says what he thinks about you, it's going to take you faith to believe it

because you won't believe how highly he thinks of you, right?

He's going to look up at Zacchaeus in the tree and go, come down.

I want to be at your house.

I don't hate you like all these people.

I want to be at your house.

Even though these people don't like you, I want to be at your house.

It's hard to believe.

Do you know who I am?

Do you know what I do?

Yes.

That's why I want to be at your house.

So you write down those identities, those names.

And as you learn how he refers to you and talks to you, then our next question is, that's

your being.

What does that do?

So my identity is militant peacemaker.

What does a militant peacemaker do vocationally in the world?

Lots of things.

But whatever I do, there needs to be conflict that's being resolved in that vocation.

Wherever I go, where there's peaceful stuff going on, I don't know what to do.

My identity was created to go to conflict situations.

And I thrive there.

If you take me and put me in another situation, I won't thrive.

So my identity being informs doing.

So once the people start to work on identity, like I'm a healer of the nations, okay?

That could be a doctor.

That could be a philosopher.

That could be a diplomat.

Then you start looking where does that go to give to the world?

Ready to give that to the world.

And when that identity gets in that vocation, they're excellent at it.

And they'll be the highest performers in that vocation.

You don't have to compete.

It's your gift to the world.

And no one has to say, please work harder there.

It makes you alive.

So put me in a domestic dispute.

It's the greatest joy of my life.

Because I can give them the gift of my identity.

And while you're doing that, you stay in community with people who love you and know you.

And you can keep bouncing it off other people.

Bounce it off the scriptures.

Bounce it off the community to make sure that you just don't go off the rails.

And that's how you do it.

It's so gorgeous.

So it sounds like you're saying that in addition to, of course, being beloved sons and daughters

of God who were created to help build his beautiful kingdom of love, you know, for

eternity, right?

And get souls to heaven on this journey that we're on in the continuum of time, right?

You're saying that there's specific gifts, specific gifts that God has given and entrusted

each soul with in this life to use.

And I think about the parable of the talents, which it's very crystal clear.

This is what the Lord is saying.

You're given certain things and don't be afraid and trust in me and use them in service

of me and others.

And I will do amazing things.

And I think a lot of times people don't know their gifts.

They don't understand their own gifts or they are fearful that, you know, they can't

fully use them or they think they have gifts that are just aren't going to be used.

Can you speak more to the gifts that God gives us in our identity and how we can determine

that we're fully utilizing our gifts instead of having some remain latent.

So when you think about gifts, when you're reading scripture, there's a limited number

of gifts in scripture, like there's, you know, depending on what list you're going by.

There's a limited number of gifts and there's an unlimited number of people.

So the gifts are going to be common among people.

Identities are all distinct, right?

So the identity is to understand your identity is what you are going to do with whatever gifts

you have, right?

So Gideon, he's a great example.

So Gideon's hiding in a cave.

If you ask Gideon, his identity, he would say, I am, I'm of, I'm of the tribe of the least

of the least of the tribes of the people.

And he, and the way he's demonstrating his identity is he's hiding in a cave, right?

So he's living out.

So now he has gifts, he has gifts, but those gifts are never going to come into play because

of how he identifies himself as he, and so when the angel of the Lord comes to him and

says, calls him mighty man of valor, not, it's not activating gifts, it's activating his

identity.

His, the angel of the Lord's question is, why is my mighty man of valor hiding in a cave?

Why is this incredible identity hiding in a cave?

If Moses, why is my deliverer of nations, a shepherd in the backside of nowhere?

I did, that's not the, I didn't give you the identity of goat herder.

I gave you the identity of deliverer of nations.

You have all the gifts, but they're buried over here as a goat herder.

You have all the gifts, but you're never going to know because you're living in a cave,

right?

You have all the gifts, but you've resigned to yourself to some nine to five job that's

meaningless where the gifts don't matter or you could even be using them to a degree,

but it's because you don't know who you are for those gifts to come alive, whatever

the gifts are.

And so once Gideon steps out of the cave and he debates it, he has that, like, what do

you believe about yourself?

I think I'm the least and we're the least and God's forsaken us.

That's what he says.

God has left us here.

He's doing confession and then the angel of the Lord is saying, no, I left a mighty man

of valor here.

The problem is not, did I leave you?

The problem is, why aren't you walking in the identity that I did it together in your

mother's room?

And he's not saying now that I'm here magically, you're becoming a mighty man of valor.

You've always been this and when Gideon debates, the Lord says, go in the strength you've always

possessed, go in the strength you, it's not new.

You've always had it.

You just don't know who you are.

And this is the beauty of a relationship with Christ.

Only Christ can tell you who you are.

That's why we need him and in him we are reborn, born again.

We're saved.

This is what he's doing.

That's what he's doing.

You're born again into what?

Into your mother's room again?

No, into the reality and truth of who you are and who I am.

Now in that identity, now what gifts come into play?

And that the identity being informs what gifts come into play.

Then you want to explore the gifts.

If you have a person who's trying to figure out gifts that don't know their identity, it

doesn't really function.

Identity is the essence of who you are.

It's the truest thing about you.

It's grounded and rooted in love and it's only created by God in you.

That's what identity is.

So would you say that the only way to determine your identity is to listen for the voice of

God?

It's to have an experiential encounter with the living God.

That's why we have to determine the analogy that we use.

Get saved.

You get born again.

Yeah.

There's no one in scripture that knows who they are that don't have an experiential encounter

with God.

What we have are people living out a kind of religion with no real experiential encounter

with God on a regular basis.

And this is because the human person is not a robot meant to just be given inputs,

by other people, even by faith that we know to be true objectively, right?

Are we believe we've given the gift of faith to believe it's true?

And they just then program us and then we just did it right.

Like we're meant to be co-creators with God.

That's part of the human identity is creation.

Creativity is essential to the human identity.

And so we have to talk to our father.

We have to talk to our Lord.

We have to talk to the Holy Spirit.

And this is what I think a lot of Christians, certainly non-Christians too, but Christians

get kind of weirded out by.

They don't know what to do with.

And let's say they do the exercise you just offered, which you pray, you ask God what

of my false beliefs, the false names you call me.

We had Father John Ricardo on the show recently, actually, this beautiful Catholic priest

of this ministry.

And he very similar, pray, ask the Lord, you know, what do you say about me?

I mean, you have to ask that question.

Okay.

So let's say that you write down and let's just, there's a gal.

And she says, okay.

Lord says that I am a great helper, you know, to the lost or something like this, right?

She's given them this beautiful thing that really resonates with her soul.

She's a mom of three, let's say, or, you know, a few kids.

She's maybe got some part time job.

She's got, you know, a husband and her own issues, whatever.

Let's just say, she's like, what does that mean?

How do I, how do I do that?

Is this for my kids?

Like, what are the next steps?

Once you start to, you feel like you're starting to hear the voice of God.

You're getting, you're getting these inspirations.

What are the next steps to then actually activate on the inspirations?

Oh, yeah.

So once the Lord, again, if you just watch in scripture, what happens?

So once Gideon has that identity, once he understands of a mighty man, man, then the

Lord starts to lead him through a process of actions.

And the first one is go tear down the gods in your own house.

Like it's not go deliver a nation.

It's like you have the idols are in your house.

Step number one, wow, we wouldn't think to do that.

We're like, okay, I'm a, I'm a helper of the nations.

I'm going to go out into the nations.

No, no, no, no, no, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, then like start right here right now.

Okay, helper of the nations needs to know how, what does God want to do in you?

How does he want to help you first?

You have to receive his help in order for you to become the helper.

So you have to become an expert in how he helps you.

So one of my distinctive identities is I'm an entire of knots.

So like one of my gifts is like to go into a situation where a person's knotted up and

just like help him unravel it.

But I have to be an expert in God doing that in me first.

That's why a lot of counselors are counseling, but they, or people running peace negotiation

have no peace.

They don't have any peace.

How are you going to lead a peace negotiation?

That's why we peace negotiations don't work because no one at the table has inner peace.

So again, you can't give away.

So if you have them stay at home mom and God says, you're a helper of the nations.

Okay, number one, how do you receive help from God?

Before you start helping them understand how to receive help from God, you have to be the

expert in receiving help from God.

So let's say your identity is something like, you know, connector or communicator of the

spirit or something like that.

That means you have to be the expert in how the spirit communicates to you.

Because what you're going to do, your gift to the world is to give that capacity to communicate

to other people.

Now they're going to do different things with it, but that's what you bring.

So if you and I go to work in a wherever and we hit a situation like, man, there's zero

communication in here, boom, you're up.

Your identity's up like a good team, like a good basketball team or, or, or special

last team, it's like, we don't compete because I'm not, I'm not the gift of, I don't have

the identity of communicator.

So when we need that gift, there's no competition.

It's like, you're up.

And then you start teaching them how to communicate and you said, wow, we hit it not here.

Okay, I'm up.

Right?

Okay.

Now we're back to Europe and our teams don't compete with one another.

They rotate, they rotate in when the identities are needed.

So, and so we don't have jealousy.

We don't have conflict because I can't, I'm not who the other people are like that.

So that stay at home, mom, what she wants to become an expert in is, okay, how does God

help you?

It's all the ways he helps you study the word helper in scripture into the ground, become

an expert in the word helper.

What does it mean?

What does it mean in literature?

Lord, what do you want me to know more about helper?

Helper to specifically help her to who?

What kind of help?

Like it's just this beautiful journey of like forever because there's a thousand ways

to help people, which, which nation?

How do I help this nation as compared to that nation?

It's just this endless mystery that you keep exploring and you keep discovering deeper,

deeper levels of yourself so that when you look in the mirror, you say, Lord, I love

what you did when you made me.

I had no idea what you did when you put me together.

I thought I was just this, more I walk with you and what it does is it makes you worship

him more.

And then it makes you look at another person and go, how many levels are in that person?

It makes you love the others because you realize, wow, and they don't even know who they

are.

I wish they knew who they were.

And then so then you start to have this compassion on other people.

And this person's so afraid they're just going to fight all the time.

Like I feel bad for them.

I have mercy on that like that.

Does that make sense?

It of course makes sense.

I think the project I'm so interested in and it's partly the project of this show.

We've had on a lot of different people talking about tools that you can use to discover

your identity, to discover your gifts, to discern how the evil one might be trying to

scare you or come to you to hear God's voice, to be a follower of Jesus, right?

And I hear a lot of different lenses that people have used beautifully to do pieces of

this or maybe do all of it.

And many of them, if not all of them, are compatible, compatible with each other.

I think for example, we had Father John Riccardo on this line that very beautifully with

what you're saying.

I think about the life plan.

I don't know if you've heard of this process that some people, Christians and non-Christians

can use.

We had, you know, my coach Laura Brassov on one of my coaches who did this life plan

working backwards, listening for the voice of God.

I think there's a lot of beauty in that strategy.

You've probably heard of Patlencio and you know Cody Thompson, amazing guys.

And he has all these tools to ascertain your talents and your weaknesses and your strengths

in the work environment.

And I see this constellation of all of, you know, there's temperaments and personalities

and discovering the temperament God gave you and what that means, blah, blah, blah.

Right.

There's this whole constellation of tools.

There's beauty to that, but there's a danger to that.

Because I think people are like, well, I can pick and choose.

And you know, this one kind of works for me.