E89 - Should You Opt Into The Military Survivor Benefit Plan? (It Depends)

0:00Should I elect full SBP or not? The quote worst case scenario here financially speaking is that you live a long life. Every dollar we pay into this, it goes into a government and system, and it disappears. We can't access it, we can't ever get it back. Do you have a $2.5 million Rolls Royce engine that's giving you this 100% VA disability tax free for life? When we're talking about SBP, we're inherently talking about... You're listening to Remnant Finance The show that brings you unfiltered takes on unconventional strategies to sever your dependence from the banking industry and Wall Street. We're Brian and Hans. Military pilots turn economic insurrection as an infinite bank in practitioners. We strive to keep prosperity simple. We've learned that the most important aspect of your personal financial journey is the one that is almost entirely ignored by the conventional model, the process of banking. Our goal is to teach you how to build a strong financial foundation, growing, leveraging, and protecting your capital while optimizing your financial order of operations.

1:01So you can live the life you want to live now and in the future. Listen each week as we challenge the status quo and provide uncensored takes on finance, economics, and current events now back to the show. Good morning to you, brother. Afternoon where I am. Good morning. Yeah. Yeah. Seems like it's been a few weeks since I've been on a lot of stuff happening. But yeah, here we are in a lot. What's that? That's it. You're a busy boy. Yeah, I've been busy. Yeah, a lot of stuff happened in the world right now. We're in the middle of this Iran attack and the markets are nuts. Everything's crazy. But that actually is a good point for what we're going to talk about today. Because what we're talking about today is going to be survivor benefit plan for the military. I had a couple of questions on it just in the last couple weeks and sort of did a really deep dive into it to talk about what the best options are.

2:02And there's really not a clear cut case for everybody. But sometimes it makes sense. Sometimes it doesn't make sense. It depends on where you've positioned yourself. Up to this point in your career, how old you are and what your outlook is as far as survivor-related death. I mean, excuse me, as far as service-related death. Yeah, it's a good topic because it's something that anyone who gets through the 20 years and gets the pension is going to be thinking about. I obviously myself did not make it to 20. And so it's not something I personally dealt with though when I was on that ship in Virginia, I did a few analysis for guys that doesn't make sense for me and I've limited knowledge. I know what it is. I've done an analysis where I ran through the timeline of the numbers at what point does it make sense? If you die in this period, here's the value and then here's the point where it becomes a net negative. If you live this long as the individual with a pension. So it's kind of turning this pension into an annuity effectively.

3:06And then we have a lot of comparisons to life insurance. And I'd say most of our clients and audience probably tends towards I'd rather accomplish the same goals using properly structured whole life. But there's a lot of folks that just want to see in a vacuum as this makes sense for me to do this SPP because it's a decision you're going to have to make. And if you're not well read on it, you might make a sub optimal decision. So Brian's been studying it a lot more and being in a position where you will have a pension one day, you're going to have to make this decision and is it worth it for you? And so we'll talk through that and let Brian kind of kick off some of what he's been studying for it. Yeah, and so for anybody listening, this completely scales. I mean, if you're an enlisted retiring member, you're an E7 or all the way up to O6, O7, it doesn't matter. The numbers will scale based on your inputs. So what I ran here, and the reason I say that is I don't want to scare somebody away who's a different rank, higher rank, lower rank, I just use the numbers that I'm going to be looking at as a looming retirement here relatively soon

4:09at the O5 level. So I ran those numbers because I wanted to, really what this came down to is I was doing a self study as well as preparing something to talk about and be able to talk to other people about this. So this is a personal analysis as much as it is, which I could talk about my personal numbers and why I'm going to choose what I'm going to choose as well. But yeah, it's going to be based on, you know, for Air Force, Lieutenant Colonel, for O5 retirement for military. But don't run away if you're retiring at a different rank or a different number of your structure, the numbers just move comparatively. Yeah, so just starting off, like when you look at that, I know you said you didn't get to 20 years, what do you do, 14 hens? Yeah, about 14 and a half. So I separated, but I don't have, I never had the option for the pension. I was in the class where I was in that time period where I had the option to switch the blended retirement system. And at the time, I said, well, I'm a shoe and for 20,

5:12I'm definitely going to make 20, you know, I've got a great career. So of course, I'm not going to opt in for a lesser pension where you go from 50% to 40% on the pension side in order to, with hindsight, I should have done the blended retirement because who I did not foresee the events of the last five years, totally derailing that retirement. I'll be a few years away from that 20 year mark now. But yeah, so I did not, this was never in the cards for me to have this decision point. So let's hit what, you know, what your background is with the military. That's even another change. You know, it's funny you threw that kink in there because I didn't think about the blended. And I was, you know, my, because I didn't take it, I was far long enough my career made no sense. So on the 40% basis for the, for the base pay that that changes the metrics even more and you really should analyze this even more deeply. We're just going to stick with what we've kind of prepared. But yeah, if you're in the blended retirement system

6:13planning retire, you're going to have a lower base pension, which means a lower survivor benefit plan. So it's even a bigger impact, considering you're making the same money throughout your career. So for those folks, if you're young, especially, you know, you're let's, let's say the 10 year mark where most people are making that decision, like, should I stay or should I go? You might want to start thinking right now if you're choosing to stay about starting a whole life plan so that you're ahead of the game. And I'll show you why that's important with numbers here. But what it really comes down to is a lot of our clients are at the, I'm retiring soon. I'd say so many of our clients are within a year or post retirement by one year in that ballpark. And those people are almost going to all be the old legacy retirement system where it's 20 or nothing, you get 50%. I say now, I don't know when the cut off was. I was in the window where you could choose. I think you were too. But at a certain point in the last couple of years, anyone joining didn't have a choice. You're going to be in the bread retirement system.

7:14And so I'm guessing here, but I would say that anyone who's in the, I was forced to do the blended retirement system has at least 15, maybe 12 years until retirement anyways. And I think that if that's your situation, you can put yourself in a situation to where you don't really need to worry about this because you can optimize so much better. We're talking about the decision point of you're at 20. You're starting, you know, if you're going to make a comparison to a whole life policy, how can you, how can you achieve the same goals possibly more optimally with a whole life policy? Well, you're 12, you got a 12 year jump on this, you can certainly do it. It's not even, it's not even going to be a hard decision for you. And so think about that, understand what the SPP is, understand what you, the decision you will be making in the future, but also know that if you start right now and give yourself the head start with the whole life option, it won't even, it'll be a no brainer down the road. All right, so yeah, that's absolutely true. And actually, the first case we'll look at is a 42 year old O5, 20 years in service,

8:18starting whole life now and what that metric looks like. So it's perfect for those people that are at the end too, but so the really, you know, the question that everybody faces whenever they get to this is should I elect full SPP or not? And most people only look at that as a metric of full SPP. They don't even analyze, should I do a partial survivor benefit plan. But and most people, what do they, what do you think they do? They get, they get handed this paperwork at retirement at their 20 year mark or when they're ready to walk and they go, do you want survivor benefit plan? Typically it's somebody in the financial realm or whatever you guys call it the Navy. For us, it's, it's like MPF and they just give you this choice, yes or no, even though that's, there's a big gray area between. So most people in the hurry haven't really studied it. They default to yes, it's, yeah, yeah, I want to make sure my wife's taken care of. And I respect that, but it's not always necessarily the best thing and it's not a scam.

9:18Like what SPP is before we jump into it is just like an annuity that has no asset value. So you're going to pay a certain premium for 30 years or till age 72, whichever one comes later. Should you die before your spouse, she's going to get a percentage of your base retirement pay for the rest of her life and then it ends. So there's nothing left over. So we'll talk about some problems with that too, but it's absolutely not a scam. It's just not the only option. So let's look at, like how it works. If you choose the yes, you say I'm going to get 100% of a retirement pay. It's a 6.5% charge for 30 years or till 70 like us. But 72, I'm sorry, I said 72, because I'm putting 30 and 42 together for that 20 year retiring officer. It's 70 years old. So let me make that correction right now. 30 years or age 70, whichever is longer.

10:21And when you're saying 6.5%, you said earlier, you pay a fee to opt into this option where if you die the pay continues or a portion of the pay continues for your spouse after you pass. But when you say fee, really, it's basically just do you want your full pension or do you want a reduced pension effectively? The net of that. Well, that's a premium. So if you look at your entire pension for easy numbers, say it's $10,000. I don't think many people get that amount less than like a general officer. So let's just say it's $10,000. They're going to take 6.5% of that. Every month as premium for the survivor benefit plan. And that's just a graduated number. If you elect 100% of your retirement pay as the base amount that they're going to take the premium off of. So in exchange for that, your spouse will get 55% of your base pay. So using those easy numbers again, if it was $10,000, he or she is going

11:22to receive $5,500 a month once you die if you die first. And you're going to pay $650 a month for that for 30 years, or until age 70, whatever comes first. Make sense? Yep. So $650, my options are either just to A or B, simple options. I can collect $10,000 and again, like you said, we're going to use $10,000 because it's easy math. It's easy to remember. Higher than most people are going to get. But option A, I choose to opt out of SBP and I get $10,000 a month as my pension. And when I die, that pension dies with me. Or option B, I get my $10,000. I pay $650 a month if I die in this time frame, then my wife gets $5,500 on going as long as she lives until she dies, okay. So those are two options. So to actually put some numbers on this, crazy computer.

12:23So for me, like this is just an approximate number. And this is going to range because everybody knows that's in the military when you retire. Like it's going to be based on the average three. So it depends on what your pay grade was during if you pinned on early, if you pinned on late, if you max the scale out. So I just picked approximately $5500 a month for an O5 retirement. It's not perfect. But that would make my retirement if that were the exact number $66,000 a year. If I elected the full 100% Survivor Benefit Plan, I'm going to pay 6.5% a month on that, which comes out to 357 and 50 cents per month, which is what's that, $4,290 a year I'd be paying. And if I have to pay that for 30 years, the total cost is 128,700. All right, so the benefit upon my death,

13:26or if I die before my wife, she's going to receive 55% of this $5500 a month. So she's going to then receive $3,000 per month, which comes out to $36,000 per year. All right, so we're going to use those numbers throughout this entire talk. So, and let me just make one clarification here, just because the number happens to be the same, that 5500, in the example we gave of, the first example was this general, or whoever has a huge pension, making, they're making $10,000, and we said that 55% of that is what would go to the spouse. That number was $5500 once that pensionee dies. It happens to be in this case that the number we're using for Brian's initial starting point is also 5500. I just want to remove any confusion, because if you hear the number 55 in that first example,

14:28that is what the spouse gets after the 10,000 pensioner dies. In this case, scratch that, we're scrubbing that. 55% is our starting number that Brian's getting as the retiree here, and the reduced number of 55% is based off of the starting point of 55, and that is the 3,000 a month that Brian's highlighting here, just to remove any confusion since those numbers happen to be the same. Yeah, yeah, good call. And that was pure coincidence. It's funny how that worked out. Yeah, but on the face of that, on the surface, it seems somewhat reasonable. She gets a guaranteed government income, and what's not to like about that, right? So I'm guaranteeing some income for her for the rest of her life, but there's some problems. What do you see considering that was $128,000 and $728,700 paid, if I live the entire 30 years and continue to pay into that? Any problems you see with that, right? Like the downsides? Yeah, there's obviously a break even point. If you live, like the longer you live,

15:29and the more you pay into this, without any kind of continued benefit for her, obviously this becomes, at a certain point, becomes a sunk cost. You could outlive that entirely, and now you've just paid that amount of money. So there is the extreme, I mean, that's the problem is the quote, worst case scenario here, financially speaking, is that you live a long life, right? Yeah, we go to the best. And there are 90s. Yeah. Right, that's the best case scenario. We want you guys to both live that long, and so the best case scenario is that you spend $128,000, and this becomes a sunk cost, that gets you no benefit for your wife once you pass, once you live past 70. So there is, there is that initial bad scenario where you don't die, and even right there, the misaligned incentives here, it's like, you know, if this is worth it, you need to die early, at a certain point where those, like obviously, you know, it's kind of like your insurance. You know, you make your first premium payment, and you die the next day. Well, from a numerical rate of return,

16:31the best case scenario is that you die the day after you pay your first premium, because that is the largest return on what you put in. Same thing here, you make this first payment of a couple hundred bucks, and then you die the next day, well, that's the best financial outcome, as far as your wife is concerned, in a vacuum of her specific situation. Obviously, we don't want that there. We don't want that to be the case. We want this to be a sunk cost, just like a term policy. Nobody wants to claim on their term policy, because that means you died earlier, you want to outlive it. But again, we're talking about insurance and protecting against a risk here. Yeah, and so I'd say like, in comparison to whole life insurance, you know, just like terms, since you brought that up, we're just paying, we're renting this annuity, if you'll think of it that way. So compared to whole life insurance, there's no cash value built up. So I'm paying that from 42 to 52 to 62, I have a need for finance in my life, but I'm getting nothing out of that. So right off the bat, when I look at whole life insurance, I'm building cash value. Now, to have whole life insurance

17:31is going to work for this. It's much higher premium than the cost of the survivor benefit plan. And that's a factor in this decision matrix, because as well, but every dollar we pay into this, it goes into a government system, and it disappears. And you know how we both feel about that. We can't bar about it. We can't access it. We can't ever get it back. Pure insurance. So there's no asset value here. The conversation to me sounds kind of like when we talk about waiver of premium rider, that might be a little bit more analogous, where we say, hey, a couple hundred bucks a year, if you get disabled and can't earn income, the company pays your premium, we're talking about pure insurance. And so when we're looking at the other elements of our policy structure, and for those IBC clients, this will make sense. The base premium, you know, generates a scaling cash value over time. The PWA premium generates a flat, almost one for one cash value over time, the dividend is an exact one for one cash value over time, right? And so each of these elements of your premium have a benefit. But this one, waiver of premium,

18:31we describe as insurance on your insurance. It doesn't provide you any, it's a sunk cost if it's not used. But it is there in case something that happens. It's the same kind of discussion here. Hopefully this becomes a sunk cost. But if you need it, it does provide that element of protection. So the only question becomes, can we match that outcome in a more efficient way? And that's where we get into a more in-depth comparison. Right. The second problem I see with it is what happens if your spouse dies first. So we also, you know, when you're making this decision, you also have to consider, is she healthy? Does she have a whole bunch of health issues and is unlikely to live you or he, you know, for the woman or his diary? But, you know, if they die before you, you get nothing. The earlier they die, the less sunk cost you had, which is not a premium, which is not a great outcome. But let's say they die 30 years into you paying this. I would have paid the entire 128,700 gone forever. There's no refund on that. It's just,

19:31it's a user to lose an aspect of the survivor benefit plan. And that's, that's like truly a risk. You're just paying money out. And then she dies like, oops. Government got your money. So, yeah. So there's a big cost there. I mean, the, the third cost that says, or sorry, go ahead and read. Oh, yeah. Keep going, man. Our, our third cost there is going to be opportunity costs. And this is really where the conversation is going to have to get like, get down on paper and technical looking into the week. Because the opportunity cost of paying this, you know, is going to go, we're going to say, all right, well, we could be paying a couple hundred bucks a month towards survivor benefit plan for this protection. What else could we do with that money? But in order to do something else with that money, we have to also bake into it that there's going to be a cost of insurance here. But then those costs of insurance, that, that, you know, if we do it with whole life, generates value that we can then use in leverage, for instance. And so, it's not as simple as, you know, you know, the knee jerk conversation,

20:32like you talk to, you talk to your, your, your Dave Ramsey's, like that, that kind of mentality and that, the type of financial strategy we always hammer, the knee jerk reaction is going to be, oh, don't do that. Put, put those $300 into an index fund or a mutual fund at 12%, and you'll weigh out perform any benefit you're going to get from, you know, from her out living you and then getting this 50, this $3,000 a month, or whatever that 55% number is, that she would get continuing on after you die. And it's always going to come down to, well, what if you just invested this money instead in the money, in mutual funds? Well, that's not the kind of conversation that you should be having. Like, if that's the level of analysis you're doing, and should I be in putting money into the fiber benefit plan or not, that's not the right answer. Because you need to compensate for an apples to apples, you need to have a protection element that you're replacing the protection that you're losing here. And so, that's where the life insurance death benefit comes in. And so, can we, adequately replace the protection, while providing some value, and then from there, can we leverage that?

21:32So, the opportunity cost is going to be the most detailed and the most specific to your situation here. But that's another major consideration here and potential flaw of, of what that money could have done, had it been able to provide both protection and generate returns. And so, again, that's like, that is the bread and butter of the conversation that we would have with an individual making this analysis. Yeah, and, and beyond what you said, you know, part of that analysis, when you're choosing whether to do this or not, is what kind of assets do you have? If you, if you're somebody that has, like, let's say you, you're, you're doing the option trading, like we do, and you've built a multi-seven figure portfolio that changes the metric on whether you want to dump a couple hundred dollars into this, maybe benefit. You know, so, everything, we have to look at the entire picture before you just say, yes to this or no to this. There's, there's a lot of variables that need to come into it. But I think something that's near and dear to our hearts as fathers and people that are thinking generationally is the fact that this benefit dies with your spouse.

22:32Now, they're, we're not talking about them on this. There is a kids option where up until a certain age, if you die before, you know, while your kids are young, they can receive the benefit and not your spouse until that I can't remember the age off top of my head. Let's, whatever it is, something in the early 20s with college or not college, that's fuzzy to me. I didn't really study that too hard, but that benefit exists, but only while they're young. The, the 99% solution when it comes to S.B.P. is they're trying to take care of your wife and that's what most service members are doing. So when she or he dies, it's over. Your kids get nothing. There's zero inheritance. There's no generational value. There's no asset to transfer. For me, that's a problem. But not everybody thinks that way. And if you don't care about that, you don't have kids and that doesn't matter. It's not a problem. Yeah. And I think the fourth major issue is that you are locked into this. So after you retire, there's a window. It's it's just after two years. So from 25 to 36 months,

23:32basically between the second and third year that you can opt out of it. If you miss that window or something changes in the decision matrix, once you get past that three-year mark or that two to three-year mark, you're done. Like you're paying it for 30 years. There's no more options. Now, it does stop paying if your wife pre-deceases you. So the payments end immediately or, you know, that month. But you can't change your mind in 10 years and say, ah, this was a bad idea. Or I've built a real estate empire now or I've built, you know, a lot in the market. And I don't really need this anymore. Too bad. So I don't like the fact that you're locked in. You have something we talk about. You're lacking control. Yeah. For me, that's a problem. For me, that's a problem. And maybe those first few years, because when you do the analysis here, like we said, the earlier you die, the more value there is here. And so those first few years, if you have decided and you're within that window still, you know, it might be a decent call because the returns in that situation,

24:33if you were to die during those three years, are really large, you know, because the longer she lives at that point, you've paid very little in cost, but you've generated a pretty substantial ongoing annuity plan effectively for her. And so that could really be a time that's the most exposed that you are in those early years. And there's analysis there, like family health history, service related injuries that are service related. Maybe you took too many poisonous jabs and you have some kind of autoimmune disorder and you're looking at dying young, like you have to think about so many more variables than check yes or no. Right. If you're triple boosted or whatever, you know, probably this is not a bad play for you. It might not be a bad play. And I'm even saying that, like that's going to, we'll get to the conclusion, but sometimes this makes sense. So, so let's talk about like when it actually pays off. Remember the numbers. I can flash that screen again here real quick. 300 and change a month.

25:34Got you your wife about 3000 a year. Sorry, 3000 a month. If you died early, that being 55% of your $5500 monthly pension. Yeah. So we pay $128,000 approximately. If I live, you know, if I live the full 30 years, I'm going to pay about that much amount that that much. She's going to receive this now. There are cost of living adjustments to this, but I don't know what those are going to be. So we just stuck with this with no inflation. Just, you just have to work with that. We can't, we can't figure out every single metric forever. So the, the nice thing is, is she only has to receive that for three and a half years for it to actually be to get all the money back that I put in. So that's not a terrible outcome. As long as she lives three, four years, she's going to get every dollar put in. If she lives 30 years, she's going to get $1,089,000 in total benefits. If she lives 40 years. And that's assuming you pay, that's assuming you live the full, like you, if you,

26:34earlier you die, the sooner that break even happens for her. Absolutely. But two years one, it could be a month. If I die right away. So yeah, that, like you said, in the beginning, the closer we get to that number on the front end, the better benefit this is. But this is assuming I live and pay for this for 30 years. If she were to live 40 more years, like maybe she's a lot younger than you. Another thing to think about. If you've married somebody that's 15 years, 20 years younger than you, like, they're probably going to outlive you by a lot. Might be worth it. But yeah, so she lived 40 years that ends up being like 1.45 million. So the longer she lives, the better that is. And, but again, it assumes you die first. And there's another assumption there. There's another rule about this, actually. It assumes she doesn't remarry before the age of 55. If she, I actually have a friend in this situation, who is, who is engaged to somebody, but they're, she's not 55 and receives this.

27:34So the 55 year old thing, like, you can't remarry or this cuts off completely. Now, if that person divorces before their 55, it resumes. So really weird rules around that. They just can't be married to another person and receive this at the same time. They can get married. They can get divorced. Pick it back up. And if they get married at age 56, they can continue receiving it. Yeah. So your friend effectively has to, like, can't, can't get, can't get remarried if she wants this, this, payment to continue. Correct. And yeah, and with, with multiple young children, like it, it honestly probably doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah. Which is a shame. Like, so the, so the state the government is saying, like, no, you're going to remain alone. You're going to remain a widow if you want to receive this benefit for, you know, your deceased spouse. Yeah. Ridiculous construct there, but that's a whole other discussion. So there's something called DIC. That stands for dependency and indemnity compensation.

28:34This is an important part that we need to talk about because it changed just three years ago. That's a VA benefit. It's approximately $600 a month. So if, 1600, 1600, what do I say? 1600. Oh, 1600, $1,600 a month. 1600 a month. Thank you. So that is a VA benefit. If the VA determines that your death is related to a service-related injury or problem, or you've received 100% VA compensation for 10 years, your spouse is entitled to this $1,600 a month, which is $19,200 a year. Prior to January 1st, 2023, those two things offset themselves. So survivor benefit plan was reduced directly by that DIC by this VA benefit. So they could only still get the maximum survivor benefit plan. So you paid more money into it. They got less from that particular benefit if they also got the DIC.

29:36Well, as of three years ago, which nobody talks about, they're allowed to receive both. So that changes a lot. That's adding 19,200 to their annual annuity. So now, instead of 36,300, what's that go up to? 55,500 I think it is? Doing some quick mental math there? Yeah. So you're basically recovering essentially in that situation, you know, using our U as an O5, you were getting 5,500 a month, your wife got 3,000 after that offset. We're not quite all the way back up to 55 with there. We're about 45, but we're recovering some of that, that 45% haircut that you take. So the family is, you know, that is certainly a, from a policy decision or from our perspective as someone considering this, this is certainly a big thing in the plus column that you're no longer going to forfeit this right that you might have.

30:37And so we can debate like a lot of the policies and stuff. If I was a lawmaker, I'd get rid of military pensions and VA disability entirely. But then as long as it exists, I'm going to collect a VA, you know, the VA disability I qualify for, had I made its 20, I would get the pension, right? And so like, as long as the system exists as it is, we don't really need to do too much discussion of the merit of these policies. But this one, we can categorically put into the plus column for us trying to make a decision. It's a totally different value proposition here. I mean, it's that, that comes out to like on those numbers with our example here, the 55, or I'm sorry, the 3,025 a month on SPP and then add to that the 1,600. That's over a 50% increase in her, what would be her monthly annuity. So totally different. And you really need to make a good decision there. So you really got to, you know, think about how you're looking at this. And what is the likelihood of you having that,

31:38if you have 100% and you know you're going to have a 100% VA disability like lock that in, that's probably pretty good. If you have a high likelihood, let's say combat veteran, you've had major problems, toxic exposures, different things that you can easily say, there's a high likelihood I'll have a service related death. It's definitely something to think about. If you were a pencil pusher who never deployed and have no actual disabilities, then you have a very low probability of having your death related to your time in the service. Like, probably not something you should build into the decision matrix. All right. Let me just ask this, because this is, this DIC element is new to me, because again, SPP fell off my radar as far as really personally tracking it when I no longer qualified for it. And so, this DIC, so if someone's listening in my situation, they didn't make it to 20, they don't have the pension. So SPP isn't a conversation there ever going to be having themselves, but they do have a 100% VA disability.

32:39And they live for 10 years and 12 years in, let's say, by after collecting 12 years of 100% VA disability, is that, are you saying that this, that that person automatically qualifies for DIC, like their spouse is going to get 1600 a month, just because independent of the SPP conversation, they don't have a pension, they don't have SPP, but if they live for 10 plus years, they're locking in an annuity for their spouse of $1600 a month, just by merit of that VA claim being 100%. That's how, as long as you maintain that 100% rating for the whole time, the whole duration of 10 years. Interesting. Yeah. So this exists separate, but the problem was, and there was a whole bunch of lobbying around this that finally, the law has got passed in 22, an effective January 1st, 2023, that it used to, like, the government was like, oh, well, if they're also getting this, they're not going to get as much of this, and they're two separate things because you can get one without the other. And, of course, the government just screwed the pooch on that one for a long time. And there was, like, a phase-in period for a couple years.

33:39But, yeah, now, you can get 100%. You can get 100% policies in general, but they exist. And so, you should understand them, and you should optimize within them. And on that note, if you are a veteran with a disability claim, that's less than 100%, and you haven't tried to get it increased, there are services that will do that for you, and we know people who have used them effectively to go from either 0 to 100% on their first try, or from whatever percent they got themselves, to 100%. And so this is, this is another compelling reason, not just for a while, you're alive, you're looking to this, get yourself to 100, because that's a great value right there, and those companies, most of them, if they don't get you that increase, you don't pay them. So, reach out to us, and we can put you in contact with people who have done this, or companies that do this, to where you get a free look, effectively, can we get you to 100? And you'll only pay us if we do get you an increase. And ideally, you get to 100, so you start your timer on this 10 years towards this DIC, because that's a very powerful annuity right there.

34:39And when we think about, for instance, if you have 100% disability, say two kids, it's about $4,200 a month, tax-free, if you put that into a calculator, an annuity calculator, and said, how long, like, how much would you need to put into a single-pay annuity? How much of a chunk of capital would you need to turn into a money printer that could generate 4,200 a month of tax-free income for life at your current age? You'd probably need about $2.5 million, paid to an insurance company in the form of a single-pay annuity to generate that income for life. And so if you have that pension, or sorry, if you have that, that 100% disability, it's as if you had 2.5 million to invest, and you put that into a cash flow engine that generates spits out cash flow for you for life, you, that's about replaced, that's as if you had an asset worth $2.5 million working for you, printing out money, right? That's how you think about a single-pay annuity,

35:40is this is a printer, this is an engine, I've basically bought an engine that generates cash flow. In this case, you have a $2.5 million dollar Rolls-Royce engine that's giving you this 100% disability tax-free for life. And so in that example, about a third of that is the $1,600 a month, so you could say that if it's 2.5 million, then about a third of that is how much this engine that you're creating for your wife is worth, if you lived 10 years with a VA disability of 100%. So get that disability, get that $2.5 million working for you, generating cash flow, and then when you die, the engine doesn't just go away when this example with the VA disability, the engine just reduces and size by about two-thirds, but you still have an engine generating cash flow for your spouse. So that's an enormous plug for the value of doing whatever you can to get to 100% disability. It's funny how I used to be, like, opposed to that until I realized

36:40how the VA more or less a lot's a 100% disability to every service member ahead of time and what you don't get just goes somewhere in the government throughout, and they blow it. So I feel like, I feel now that I've learned that it is always better in your hands than the government's hands because we know that at $38 trillion in debt, they will not allocate the money well. Yeah, they're currently not just emerging family. And you can actually say, blood and treasure, you know, as of the last week or two, they're just going to start blowing blood and treasure on another pointless war. And so, you know, take it out of their hands, put it in your family's hands, put it in your family's economy and generate cash flow engines for yourself. That's what we're trying to do overall with our financial strategy. And if you can have someone supplement that, i.e. in this case, the VA, or the government, via your pension, like, the system exists

37:40as ridiculous as it is. So just optimize within it. That's a, that's always should be our goal. I agree. All right. So let's talk like really quick, you know, this is an infinite banking podcast. So we don't have to hammer all these homes. But let's just kind of talk about the alternative now. So we've given the two scenarios. We've given straight SPP. We've given SPP with the DICVA benefit survivor plan. But we haven't talked about a whole life yet. So some differences. As, as we know, the fundamental differences is with SPP, like we've said it multiple times, you pay for 30 years, you get no cash value, your spouse gets money after you died, ends with her. And if she dies first, it just ends. You lost that money. So you have zero access to that cash once again, your entire life. So Hans, compared to whole life, a quick bulleted overview of the SPP of paying money. And of course, I do want to caveat before you talk about this that in order to make this system work, you're going to be paying more premium than you would for survivor benefit plan. Like we're going to build

38:40a system, a banking system with much higher premiums in these examples. So it's not an apples to apples as far as the input into SPP or the input into whole life. But run with what's different there. Yeah, and it gets back to how we frame premium within the IBC conversation. When I look at the premium that I'm paying, it's not an expense. Like if I had survivor benefit plan, and I'm looking at, here's my cash flow, and here's an expense, I'm purchasing something that is an out-of-pocket expense that generates while I'm alive, no income, no value, right? It is just paying it's a pure cost of insurance. When we're talking about a whole life policy, structured the way that we do, none of those dollars that we're paying into our premium are just an expense for an if, if, or, you know, like a binary scenario, like a term policy, which is just due, died, or in the term, or not. Every dollar that goes into my whole life policy is generating value now, and in the future,

39:40guaranteed. And so I don't look at this as an expense. So I don't mind the fact that I'm paying more than I would be to survivor benefit plan to recreate the same protection because in doing so, I'm generating value now. And so let's say, whatever the premium amount is that we're talking about here, if 80% of it right off the bat is generating cash value that I can use now, and then I can start leveraging that via the function, but the mechanism of the policy loan, I can put that savings to work without depleting it as in, doesn't mean it's fully accessible because it's leveraged, it's collateralized via policy loan, but it is still growing and compounding as if it's on touch because it technically is on touch. And so we're putting that death benefit in place, and effectively borrowing from that future death benefit by using a policy loan. And without going into all the benefits of the policy loan, it is the most powerful lending mechanism we can possibly access, and it's something that we should understand, and it's not as,

40:40you know, if you know how to use a policy loan, then you understand why it's not, it's not just that, well, here's money going into a policy, and here's money going towards SPP, and this is our two comparisons, because when I think about what I'm doing with my cash value, I'm generating well over 100% return on the interest I'm accumulating, and anybody who's gone through an intro call with me understands that we've walked through the policy loan, we also have an article on the blog walking through the mechanics of the policy loan, we have several podcast episodes on it, but I think if you don't understand how to use a policy loan, just take my word for it now, and we can discuss it, graphically, and walk through it later, that it's not just, it's the fact that I'm, I'm making 100% return on my cost of capital, is very easily provable, and so if I'm, if that's the case, then I know that it's beyond just getting, you know, instead of SPP, I'm instead paying towards a policy, but then I use that policy

41:40to then springboard into, whether it's those stress options, crypto, whatever my investment strategy is, I'm facilitating investment in a manner to grow these dollars without depleting my principle, because I'm borrowing against that future death benefit, so I don't know how deep you want to go into policy loans, but it's like, don't, the summary for me is don't just think of this as, both of these things are sunk costs, which sunk cost is less, that's not accurate. I would much rather pay a $10,000 premium, than, you know, that whatever the 100 a month is, right, the $3,600 that I'm paying towards, you know, survivor benefit plan, that $3,600 is a sunk cost, where my $10,000 annual premium, structured for IBC, zero of that is a sunk cost, especially once we get past this initial capitalization period. Again, that might not make sense if you've never studied that in IBC policy, you never walk through how to use it with us, but it's, keep in mind that it's not an apples to apples comparison, and it can't be really,

42:40and so we would need a lot more analysis to really get an apples to apples here, but if you have time to build this IBC system before you get to the decision of, do I sign up for SBP or no, you can make this conversation a move point. There's no comparison. But if you're at that conversation, which is where we're starting right now, this 42-year-old who has to make this decision now, well then we really need to get some, some momentum going with this policy, and so that's a little bit of a harder decision to have to get a lot more granular. If you're younger, if you're still in the military for 10 years in, you've got time to retirement, you can generate something now and schedule with us without having a conversation. You will blow the SBP out of the water guaranteed. Well, you just need to understand how that works. You will. So I'm going to share my screen here again now for compliance purposes. I can, I didn't want to share the actual illustration, so I transcribed everything, but we got all the important numbers here. So what I said is I

43:40took that 42-year-old O5, assuming he's going to remain in the workforce, he or she is going to remain in the workforce, and can easily afford this with their pension plus their new salary, their new income, their new business, whatever they're doing. So they're paying a $20,000 annual premium. I only broke this down on one. Assume for the next couple of examples, it's something similar. So this is a base premium of $4,186. I put the waiver premium on here, which Hans mentioned earlier, it's a little bit of a sunk cost that provides a phenomenal benefit that we think is well worth it, but that's $351 a year combined for the whole life in the term. There's a 30-year term premium on this, and that actually takes into age 72, which is important because the longer that term lasts, the more expensive it is, and in this case, it was still only $340 a year. So really inexpensive. I think it was like $100,000 or something. It's not it. I didn't need a big term for this. And then the PUA, the portion of the PUA

44:40is $15,122 right here. So this person would have actually been capable of paying another $2,000 if they wanted to, if they had the cash flow to do it, and that would generate even better cash volume, better death benefit. So if we look at this, here's some random breakdowns I put. And the reason I stopped at $35, as I said, the average life span in America for a male is $76.5. So I'm killing this officer at $77, and saying that's what they could deliver. Interestingly enough, the 30-year mark is also marked here. So this is the point at which they would stop paying survivor benefit plan. So if they lived to $72,30 into the policy, those payments to survivor benefit plan would stop. They would have paid the total $128,700. All right. So let's now, let's look at this. Like Hans was saying, you have access to this, this column, I should say, the entire time, for all the things you do, whether that's investments,

45:41whether that's purchases, your daughter's wedding, college, buying a home, whatever you spend money on that you finance now, you can access this through the policy-loan provision. So this isn't locked away from you your entire life. And these numbers, as you can see, climb substantially by paying that premium. So at 30, you at that point in your life have access to $1.2 million in cash value. And if you would die right then, you're delivering a $1.75 million benefit. Pretty substantial. Now, if you died here, your wife was better with the survivor benefit plan. Fact, period. She would have received more net income through her life if she lives a long time. Again, all those things come in. So this is a, it's a time game here. And you really need to think about all those things. But let's just look at the, the next example real quick, to show what Hans was just saying, start young,

46:41I took a 10-year officer, you know, assuming they started at age 22, they're halfway through their career, they know they're going to commit, and they're, they're going to have to make this decision on the survivor benefit plan in 10, 12, 13 years, whenever they retire. So I lowered the premium a little bit, just by 2000. And this would, this is a substantial premium for somebody at 32 based on their rank and based on their income. So it can be done. I know it can be done because we've done it. But taking $18,000 a year. So look at their cash show. You know, look at those same things. Now remember, this person will be 40. They would have paid 40 years into this. So at that mark, they have 1.9 million. And the death point, age 77, they have 2.4 million in cash value compared to the officer who started at retirement, 42, they have an additional, what about $800,000 in cash value. Just by starting 10 years sooner.

47:41And if they both died at age 77, they're going to deliver an additional million dollars to their family. That's he here. This is super important because with a survivor benefit plan alone, it ends with your spouse. And I'm constantly thinking about, how can I make my family stronger? How can I, how can I make sure that my grandkids are starting off on a financial, financial solid ground? Anything to add in those two owns? No, it's just, what, what, I like to think through this conversation when I'm talking about insurance. Not, not the SPP, but just in general. I think, if you think of yourself as your self and your family, then every dollar that you put into your IBC policy is going to multiply many times over to your family one day guaranteed. It's the only, the early few years of this, where SPP might be more optimal. That, that period of time

48:41is if you're comparing to your policy, those dollars, that's assuming that you died in those early years. And so, you might have been, you might have been better off for a year or two. It's hard to imagine that after a few years, there's a scenario where SPP was the better call. If you live beyond, say, three years, and we're not going to run every single scenario. But really, the SPP has value in those first couple of years when the IBC policy is really getting off the ground. But again, if you died during those three years, it multiplies itself many times over into a death benefit, which, again, like we could, we could just kind of dive down the, the technicality rabbit holes of comparison here, forever. If you're, if you're in that three-year window, where you, you opted into it, but you saw the time to get out, you probably could have covered the most risky years that you had, where the SPP really shines. But the, the time to build this out, again, like, for this 32-year-old, it's, it's incomparable what you can do with this, and, you don't even really have a decision to make, at that point. It's really only

49:41if you're coming up on retirement and having to make this, that, that's even in the cards. And I think one of the keys here, just to reiterate, what Hans always already talked on, is the cash value. As opposed to anything else, you have access to this money. You know, these are, these are cumulative amounts. So, at 20 years, you have access to 552,000. So, right, maybe you want to move, maybe you want to buy a lake house. Whatever you need access to money for, you have it via that policy-loan provision. So, you've built a real asset over time, and that cannot be ignored when you're thinking about, you can't think of this in a vacuum and to think about all the benefits of this asset, compared to, just paying the SBP premium. Or maybe you do both, which we'll look at here. So, to draw the full comparisons. And, again, we can't look at every single possibility. So, I'm just going to say you died at 72. Right? Excuse me, at the exact same point, when you stopped, when you stopped paying

50:42the premiums for a survivor benefit plan. I made your wife a little bit younger, so she could collect this for a good period of time. So, she's 65 when you died at 72. And she lives at be 90. So, if you just did the survivor benefit plan, and you don't have this DIC, this VA benefit, you don't have the 100% benefit or you don't have a service-related death. She's going to get $36,300 per year. There's no Cola adjustments here, just keeping the numbers basic. So, you've paid $128,700. She, in those 30 years, is going to receive $907,500. This is a key here. I did the mod of order, but there's no inheritance effect. That matters a lot to me. The net total to your family, to her, and if they're still young kids, or just to her, is $778,000. So, if you have that benefit, if you have the VA benefit, and she's going to receive $50,000, $55,500, you've paid the same amount.

51:43This is what she received in 30 years. Pretty good. So, she nets $1,259,000 rounded. And finally, for that, if you started the whole life policy, and I only showed the one, the 42-year-old, he would have paid $597,543. This is if he elected not to do these as well. He said, I'm only doing whole life, and I'm not doing any survivor benefit plan. So, his family would receive $1.75 million upon his death. For a net total benefit to the family, it's subtracting the premiums paid, even though we do understand that those premiums have been available to you the whole time, they've never left your life, but the net benefit, assuming there's no policy loans, and she gets the entire death benefit, is $1.152 million. So, you can see that it's not in a vacuum, because in this exact case, if everything worked out perfect, your family is going to receive more money. Your wife is going to receive more money doing this.

52:47Yeah. And so, yeah, and you probably thought that I was just going to say, a whole life wins. Of course, if your wife lives, if your wife lives, doesn't live much longer, she's going to leave whatever's left of this behind, which I think is a huge perk, which to me, because this difference isn't enough, this $100,000, to me, the legacy matters more. So, that's where, in my personal situation, it matters. That is isolating it, as if the only thing you're doing with this policy is just letting it grow. When I walk through what I'm doing with my policy, I show on the line for line on the illustration. In year one, I invested in that rental, the real estate syndicate, and year two, I got my first rental property, and year three, I got parental properties two and three, and in year four, I invested in most of those options. So, I have five sources of income generated from that column that we saw there, and the income generated from those policy loans

53:48is more than double what the interest those loans are accumulating. And so, that's about, on every dollar that I'm paying an interest to the company in order to use those dollars, I'm generating more than a dollar of net profits, or I'm making at least two, from these investment returns. While also, you know, the tax, the rental properties are great for taxes. You know, so I'm getting, I'm getting a lot more outside of this. And so, to me, if you're doing anything at all, even if you probably, even if you just take a policy loan to, you know, invest in a very basic simple, you know, index fund or something, you're going to blow out that option there where, in a vacuum, if you did nothing, the survivor benefit plan would have been better if everything worked out. But again, the good thing is, when we're talking about the, when we're talking about the, the whole life, we're removing all of the ifs. We're not saying, if you live this long, like all of these, all of these considerations, the ifs are removed. When we're talking about, if we pick the perfect optimal plan for SPP,

54:48there is a way that it is optimal. If this, if this, if this, if this, we have to make a lot of assumptions to get to that optimal point where it can outshine or it can do better than just a whole life policy with nothing being done as far as leveraging the cash value. So there is a, there is a, like a narrow path, a flow chart where you can get to a better outcome with SPP, you die early, or if, if, if, if, if, and you live a long time, all of these ifs and your wife lives much longer, then there is a scenario where it could also outperform. But philosophically, we don't like the ifs. We, we do, we are such big fans of the product and the asset that we use because we don't want ifs in our financial strategy. And when we're talking about SPP, we're inherently talking about the protection, we're talking about continuing income beyond our life, which is exactly the conversation we have and we have the, the whole life, the human life value discussion. What are you worth? And how do we ensure that, if you don't wake up tomorrow, your income continues and your family gets the benefit

55:48of what you would have earned had you been here to earn it. So there's a lot of overlapping conversations when we're having an SPP conversation, it resonates. It sounds a lot like the conversations we have. It's just, there's so many more ifs that it's, it's kind of like, it's overwhelming to, to really try to do an Apple Stapples comparison because you have to make so many assumptions to make the SPP work. And again, if we knew you were going to die in two years, SPP is good. And also, you know what? If we knew you were going to do a good die in two years, we wouldn't put you in a holiday policy. We would get you term, right? Because if we knew, if we, if the, these risks that we're ensuring against had some certainty to them, you would be better served by paying the lowest premium possible because that is how we're going to maximize. So like, yeah, like if we had perfect information, term would be better than whole life for people that we know are going to die during the term. And so we don't deal with all these ifs and we don't, because we don't have perfect information, we have to optimize

56:48within the information we have. And we think we can do that for most people. It would make a lot more sense to do the whole life, particularly the younger you are. Even if you have two, three years to get a jump on this, if you're at 17 years and you have two, three years to retirement, you can get a jump on the whole life and make it to where the discussion doesn't even matter. It's just if you're starting now where you really might have a harder decision to make. Yeah. And so, so just to like look at the absolute nightmare scenario possibility of this, is that you live a full third, you live the full 30 years, you pay the $428,000 and premium for SPP, your wife dies before you, you got nothing. You don't get a refund on that, you're just out. However, as opposed to if you just did whole life, if you live and pay those premiums for 300 or 30 years, you've probably paid, I don't know what it comes out to, $500 some thousand dollars in total premiums, your wife dies, you still have the asset, you still have the cash, you still have the death benefit, you still have your retirement. Yeah.

57:48So, all you're going to do is change the benefit series if you have children or to whomever you want to change it to. So the asset lives on, the asset still benefits you and it gets to pay out. So that's like the absolute worst case scenario, where SPP wins is if you die, let's say in those first couple years, and you just haven't built it out, and you're only doing one or the other, you're going to pay a lot more premiums, they're going to get a lot less in death benefit, and that is also drawing the assumption that your spouse lives a really long time after you died young. And if she continues to live a long time, she's going to win with the SPP, especially if you have the VAB benefit on top of it. But I still think that the hybrid approach matters. And you know, when I'm thinking about my family, me personally, I have a few million dollars already in whole life insurance and a lot more term that's going to get converted. So I know that there's going to be multi-multi-multi-millions in whole life because I started this in my 30s long before my career was coming to a close. But you know what?

58:48I still might choose or low percentage. I still might do like 25%. That's what people don't realize is you don't have to do the maximum SPP. I still might even add into that. In case I have, you know, I might get some kind of service-related VA benefit. I don't know that. But under that probability, why not for a short amount, due to 25%, and it'll only cost me 100 some dollars a month? It might be worth it. And that's a matter of fact, I might just do that just to have her give her a guaranteed annuity as well. Yeah. So I might take the hybrid approach. I haven't totally decided yet. I have plenty of whole life that it doesn't matter. But helps her continue with her premiums, which she won't have a problem with. Depends if it depends if my wife learns to trade because I will push that. And I'll me it's even in a letter. Like learn to do this. So I think that that might be my compromise. Is do like 25% as a hedge.

59:49Even though I have enough death benefit. But the problem is, if my term isn't all converted, I have plenty of terms. So I'm actually, because income has gone up. I'm not at human life value anymore. We always talk about that. But that's a constantly changing number. So I no longer have enough insurance for human life value. I need to add some. So when I think of that, she's still short of what my human life value was. Another decision. Like can she continue to lifestyle? Can my kids continue to lifestyle without me here? They can do pretty well because I'm not a consumer anymore. So I probably don't need 100% human life value for their lives to say the same. But adding in a little annuity might not hurt. Little guaranteed income. I don't know. Yeah. For nobody, it's not completely clear cut. And it's pretty cheap annuity insurance. For her to get, you know, 1,200 bucks a month. Yeah. There's so much.

1:00:49Again, like I guess the summary of this. A little frustrating, but the summary is it depends. But really, it only really depends if you're very close to that point. You know, again, the main highlight, if you are a young officer, if you are someone who has. Has a few years to get a head start on this. You can put yourself in a situation where you don't really need to think about this. This is, this becomes like you said, maybe I'll throw a quarter, you know, a quarter of it towards this, just as a nice little annuity. But, you know, it's not like we're not making this tough decision here of, you know, how do I ensure all of these what ifs? Like you can really get a jump on this once you understand how to structure a policy and get to the point where you're, you don't, this, this is not something that's even on your radar. And that's a good point to be at. Like having to make this decision, I'd rather not have to make this decision because I've already got this optimized. And so again, it always depends. I think it, the answer is it depends. But I think if I were to like give you check boxes,

1:01:49what I might say is like, you know, you have a high probability of getting that VA benefit. And you don't have a lot of cash flow. You have no whole life right now. Probably take it. Because if you have that service-related injury and you're, you're more likely to die young looking at that, I would say probably take it. If you have, you know, 10 years of retirement and what I might end up actually doing is just rejecting it all because I have plenty of whole life. I'd start the whole life and not even worry about it because you'll see that in 10 years you'll be like, I'm not even concerned. I'd probably elect for whole life instead of survivor benefit plan. If you also have the DIC coverage, you might elect to take a little portion of it. I don't know. And for most people like if you're inside that five-year mark, maybe do a hybrid approach like I'm talking about, you can probably afford both. And I guess the fourth metric there that I didn't think about is if you have absolutely terrible cash flow habits and you simply can't afford whole life insurance because you spend every dollar you make

1:02:49and Parkinson's law rules your life, take the coverage. Because if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. Don't leave your spouse high and dry. I'd rather you leave her something than nothing. And if it's forced out of your paycheck and you can't do anything about it, you're at least benefiting them in some way. So if you're terrible at your cash, 100% takes a survivor benefit plan. If you need Dave Ramsey's financial advice, you probably should stick with the VGLI and SPP. Really not optimizing there, but if that's you, know your strengths, know where your weaknesses are, and be realistic with where your financial IQ is. And if you need Dave Ramsey, then you probably need SPP. You need that forced that forced habit to ensure that that protection's there because if you would just spend that money otherwise, then when the worst happens, and we all live until we don't,

1:03:50we don't know when that day's coming. And so if you need to be the same way that if you need that money taken out of your paycheck before you even see it and put towards retirement, just in a long-term qualified plan, that's better for you if you would spend that money and get nothing out of it besides short-term spending pleasure. So know yourself, but if you want to have a conversation and talk through your specifics, and if you want to learn more about what this other path is, if you're military and you're not really coming up on this decision anytime soon, but you're, we keep talking about this other path of how you could kind of do this hybrid approach or optimize like, if that's uncertain to you, then that's something that you can schedule and we can talk through. So you actually understand when I was talking about policy loans, leveraging all this, you know, how to use this, keep the principle in place. If that doesn't really resonate with you yet, then we can have a conversation and see what we can set up now so that we can preclude this from being a conversation you really need to worry about in the future. Yeah. So I hope the point is that it's just not the black and white decision.

1:04:52I hope what you've taken from this is it's not the black and white decision that they're going to give you when you go to retire of do you want full SBP or none? That's pretty much the check box you get. There are so many different factors here. It depends on your age, your probability to get that DIC compensation. It depends on your family situation, your values, your goals going forward. There are so many different variables here that it's not a straight-up decision, spend some time thinking about it, call us and talk through it. I'm just about through like a 50 page or so white paper that I've been putting together. It's not quite done. Hopefully by the time this comes out, I'll have it finished and it will be linked in the show notes. If you want to grab that and kind of read through, it'll have a lot more examples than we were able to talk through in one hour. It'll have a lot more information about the different aspects of SBP, so it'll be pretty detailed. But yeah, whatever you do, whether you choose it, you choose just whole life or you choose a hybrid approach,

1:05:52just make sure you're making an informed decision. And I think that's where many people fail right now. Yep. All right, well, that's good. It's good, hopefully, when those are listeners, get something out of that. Cool. All right, brother. All right. Cheers. Talk to you all next week. Cheers, man. Talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to Remnant Finance. If you found any value at all in this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a friend. Remember, true financial freedom comes from taking control of your personal economy, breaking free from the status quo. So stop being a passenger in your family's financial future. Oldly take back control of your wealth. Until next time, this is Brian and Hans signing off.