Ed Miliband is seeking an ethical foreign policy on Israel

0:00This is a global player, original podcast. Good morning. Three minutes after 10 is the time. I'm going to do something I don't often do. And remind you of the phone number, early doors. 03456060, I'm nearly forgot it, man. 03456060973 is the number that you will need to join in. Because I'm going to talk for a bit and then I'm going to ask you to talk with me, or indeed argue with me, or agree with me, or mourn with me really. And that's it today. I don't even know if I'm going to hit the exit with a sharp question, or at least possibly nothing sharper than how do you react to this news? The United Kingdom is imposing sanctions on illegally occupied territories in the West Bank because of the actions of what are foreign secretary Edmila Band chose to describe as Israeli settler terrorists.

1:03And already the first problem appears. Well, not the first problem. The first, what word would you use? The first punctuation mark in my own thinking. Do I mention that Edmila Band is the son of a Holocaust survivor? Do I mention that Edmila Band is Jewish? Doesn't it matter? Because I have spent a long time being told that it is borderline evil to conflate Israel with Judaism, and therefore to bring Judaism into any element of this conversation is wrong. I think it is awful to conflate Israel with Judaism, but the people who seem to do it the most are people like Benjamin Netanyahu, and yesterday the chief ran by it. I don't know. Is a short answer to the question that's forming in my mind? Should I mention it? Edmila Band did. I think so. That is his prerogative. That is his right. I've already heard people try to argue that because he doesn't go to synagogue every week, he's somehow not fully Jewish, which I mean, if you've got even a cursory understanding of

2:05the Holocaust is a position to adopt or a point to argue so fundamentally stupid and sick that I frankly can't believe people can do so and breathe at the same time. I can't believe that they're intellectually capable of walking and talking simultaneously to argue that because he doesn't practice, he must somehow be detached from the horrors or not fully invested in the historic plight of Jews or the current situation in Israel. Here is Edmila Band in the House of Commons yesterday. I'm proud of my Jewishness and unwavering in my support for the state of Israel and there is absolutely no contradiction between this and my support for the state of Palestine. Indeed, quite the opposite. The two-state solution is based on an explicit belief that the only route to security for both peoples is to live side by side in peaceful coexistence with freedom, security and self-determination. It's pretty uncontroversial, right? Here is the, while he'll

3:07describe himself, is the Conservative MP Edward Lee a little later in Parliament yesterday? But what is happening in the West Bank is absolutely violent and egregious. It is worse than stopping the two-state solution. It is ethnic cleansing. So will he agree that actually the Israeli government could quite easily differentiate between general trade and trade to these illegal settlements? Would he agree that there's no reason when our country fully supports the right of Israel to defend itself that this should affect our intelligence relationship? So I say to him now, I am proud to say as the longest serving member of the Conservative Friends of Israel that I absolutely and fully support what he is doing today, because it is about standing up for freedom, for morality and justice of all people in this world. So freedom, morality and justice are generally

4:09considered to be quite good things. Not, I, I, I, I come through by everybody, and they are essentially principles. It reminded me of the late Robeen Cook actually, elements of that speech. you'll be at that they sat on very different sides of the House of Commons because what we're seeing at Miliband in Act in his own mind and in mine is an ethical foreign policy. So immediately the idea that well it's not going to make any difference or it's going to damage this or it might undo that becomes pointless. Symbols are really important to human beings. The idea that something is merely symbolic is ridiculous. What do you think religious festivals are? The symbolism here is up with this we shall not put anymore. So of course the criticism that it has come too late is probably valid but I think probably defused by the old adage better late than never. So I played you those two clips because Ed Miliband is a labour foreign secretary and the son of a holocaust survivor who found shelter in Israel, I speak of his mother, his late mother, whereas Edward Lee is the longest serving member of the conservative friends of Israel. And I

5:15play them to you because on the programme yesterday the son of a rabbi described his university experiences as his first exposure to left wing people as if having problems with the conduct of Israel in the Middle East was a left wing position and we reflected on that together for a moment. And the fact that so many of the great left wing thinkers of the 20th century from Karl Marx to I know he's sort of blotted his copy books somewhat subsequently but from Karl Marx to Noem Chomsky you know left wing thinkers in the United Kingdom and beyond Ralph Miliband actually. So you know you have this extraordinary what would you describe it as? A movement in rhetoric as Israel became more aggressive and really peaking under Benjamin Netanyahu the support of the right wing became much much greater than the support of the so-called left wing and I don't know

6:17that I either understand that or buy the narrative that we've all sort of subscribed to and Edward Lee reminded me of that. I mean unless your right wingness is so ignorant and so shallow that it just means you support power whatever power is doing if you're looking at oppression then you support the oppressor rather than the oppressed and yeah okay you've got a right wing left wing divide here but I Edward Lee's words possibly for the very first time ever I really resonated with me the two edds you could say the two edds and that's why I think an awful lot of the analysis and response is both deeply mistaken and quite dangerous. You are going to be accused or certain people including the chief rabbi and the board of deputies of British Jews are going to argue that this is fueling anti-Semitism but not that for example ethnic cleansing or genocide would fuel anti-Semitism

7:20I mean it's becoming an accusation that is applied whatever anybody does in the context of Israel except stay silent or agree and applaud if you say anything if you say please stop killing people you're being anti-Semitic or indeed you're fueling anti-Semitism by pointing it out I get that in in the inbox you know I can't believe you're covering this you are encouraging Jew hate by describing what Israel is doing by reading out death tolls by reflecting upon atrocities by describing ethnic cleansing by sharing what the plurality of genocide scholars have described as genocide what human rights organizations in Israel and beyond have been describing as genocide now a long time and by simply telling the truth about those things you get accused of encouraging Jew hate and it's a horrible thing to be accused of but you've got to be big enough to understand whether it's true or not and imagine any other context in which telling the truth

8:22would see people seeking to silence you for bringing for theoretically bringing negativity down upon upon them so separating Israel from Jewishness is a task that we should all be committed to every single one of us who's interested in peace or harmony should be absolutely dedicated to pointing out that the actions of Benjamin Netanyahu's regime are in no way the actions of or supported by every Jew in the world let alone every Jew in Israel or every Jew in the UK and yet who is it that constantly tells us that by criticizing the actions of Benjamin Netanyahu and his regime you are encouraging Jew hate it's Israelis it's Benjamin Netanyahu it's there's spokes people his spokespeople in this country it doesn't make sense and you get a little bit frightened sometimes of pointing out how little sense it makes because it's such a hefty accusation to have leveled at you I don't know we just glance at my inbox and see what I can find

9:27already because you know how long have I been on air 13 minutes after 10 um I mean maybe you're gonna surprise me maybe it's not happening here we go two hours of Jew hate from James O'Brien that's from Darren glancing at his history of contributions to the program he thinks that all benefit claimants are shuckers and that Nigel Farage is the Messiah um who else if we're gonna get here well actually it's quite thin on the ground you are encouraging anti-semitism there we go that that's one um I assume you're going to take your normal anti-Israel approach this morning ignoring any valid arguments that suit your narrative that's from that's from Kevin um who's got the gift of clairvoyance he can see forward Miliband is a disgrace he adds um and and all the Ed Miliband has done is respond to a regime that is doing nothing to stop the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the West bank by settler terrorists and I still think that if he is the son of a holocaust survivor hadn't said that then I would need a slightly longer run up to say out loud myself I don't expect

10:30any sympathy for that I'm just pointing out that it's really difficult to tell the truth sometimes and it's been made incredibly difficult very very deliberately so these sanctions are ethical these sanctions as Edward Lee the father of the house just said speak to freedom morality and justice the question of whether or not they achieve much or whether or not they have negative side effects is absolutely irrelevant I don't care how many big co-owners you bring on to your program to explain that it's gonna do this or it's gonna do that in terms of of economic impact it's irrelevant it's this is literally diplomacy this is literally international relations this is literally saying to an ally although they haven't behaved like allies of the United Kingdom recently and they certainly didn't when they supported General Galtheieri during the Falklands war but you are saying to an ally we cannot tolerate this any longer please stop and they respond by accusing you of lying when you're telling the truth and the question that we started asking

11:32not long after the October the 7th or atrocities terrorist attacks was why won't they let journalists in why won't they let journalists in and we know the answer we'd know the answer for years because the truth is the enemy of the oppressor you let the journalist in then the dog sees the rabbit the people see the truth and they can't have that so we don't let the journalist in and you remember for ages you were entitled to question the casualty rates or the death toll because it was the Hamas controlled health ministry and then very quietly a year or two later the Israeli regime conceded that the death toll was accurate it wasn't being manipulated or inflated by Hamas the people who would message me on an almost daily basis just say I can't believe you're repeating Hamas propaganda went suddenly silent most of them have stayed silent so I'm very grateful to Darren and Kevin for sharing with me that boneheaded ignorance and bigotry this morning I miss it here is a question that everybody should reflect on I've begun with the first which is that if you

12:35are truly interested in peace and harmony then you have to absolutely detach the Israeli regime from Judaism you have to absolutely come down on anybody who claims that a criticism of Israelis and attack upon Jews that's hideous rhetoric hideous rhetoric and it is being delivered from the very top of institutions in Israel and indeed in this country and the second you do the same for anti-Samites as well the idea that you get to attack all Jews because of what Benjamin Netanyahu has done is disgusting it's mad isn't it that three things can be true at the same time anti-Semitism is absolutely disgusting and so is ethnic cleansing so if the people doing the ethnic cleansing happen to be Jewish then anti-Semitism is still disgusting and so is ethnic cleansing it's not difficult to sustain these two positions in your mind if you bother to think for 10 minutes or if you're free from some of the historic shackles that I have enormous sympathy for that inform your view of the world because Israelis the place

13:38that you go to when it starts happening again but think about this so that point one really is that everybody should be committed to the detachment of Jews and from Netanyahu's hideous regime criticizing Netanyahu is about I mean the idea that that is somehow hatred of Jewish people or encouraging anti-Semitism or encouraging Jew hate is an argument so utterly bogus that we should probably all agree not to give any more air time to people making it because they're not interested in the truth and they're not interested in resolution or harmony or communication they're just shouting into into the ether things that are not true and the second thing is I've had I think two occasions made me more but I've been doing this job for a very long time and very very rarely do I find myself thinking I'm not sure I want to go on air today

14:38I just want to sit with the horror for a while before I actually have to offer up views and opinions on it I know that I felt that way after the Manchester arena terrorist attack at the Arianna Grande concert because my children were of an age when they were going to a lot of concerts and I couldn't separate the personal from the professional but we got through it you helped me through it after the October the seventh terror attacks the um the feeling was was similar it was as if the carnage was so great that I didn't know where to start the description of it but again we got through that again with your help and there have been moments since not at long ago when the girl school in Iran was blown up by Donald Trump's ludicrous military ambitions yeah I didn't have the same visceral reaction because I didn't see the footage I didn't see the pictures I didn't have that the sounds in my in my ear but when when we followed the the story of the little girl

15:41um in in the car on the phone begging for help and we've subsequently discovered that she was killed as well in circumstances that absolutely nobody could could defend you have those moments as well where you think oh why didn't I become a music DJ why didn't I become a sports cop why do I have to talk about this stuff um immediately why can't I have 10 minutes to uh process it or two days to to get through it if you're not familiar with that story by the way hindra jabs death then it's because of the it's for the same reasons that much of the coverage in the british media today is um amplifying and disseminating the idea that an ethical foreign policy decision to tell an ally that what they're doing is disgusting and must stop somehow encourages jiu jiu hatred or puts Jewish people in danger attacking the son of a holocaust survivor for speaking out in favor of humanity and decency she was five years old um she spent

16:44hours trapped in a car pleading for people to rescue her um and the idea of kill her Iran our uncle our cousins that were already dead they tried to escape in the same car Israeli forces fired on the vehicle instantly killing six of her relatives including her 15 year old cousin who'd managed to call the emergency dispatches which is why the phone line was open she spent hours this little girl this five year old girl talking to the Palestinian Red Cross sorry am I encouraging jiu hatred or am i critiquing a barbaric act by the Israeli regime or by representatives of the Israeli regime because if you don't know the answer to that question you're lost you're already lost am i am i being anti-Semitic at the moment because if you don't know the answer to that question or if you think the answer is yes then you've surrendered something really valuable you've surrendered intellectual freedom you've surrendered agency and you've surrendered honesty

17:44all for Benjamin Netanyahu hours on the phone to the Palestinian Red Crescent Society whispering desperate pleas for help so they sent an ambulance two medics all cleared all coordinated and then it got hit by an Israeli tank round that killed the paramedics instantly the line to um to hind went down and her body was discovered the following day after Israeli forces withdrew from the area i tell you what i'm doing here i'm encouraging fact appreciation true sack knowledgement and um how when you think about the aftermath of October the 7th and you think about how how we sat here i don't think i had sympathy for Keir Starmer when he appeared to offer support to putative war crimes committed by Benjamin Netanyahu the cutting off

18:45of energy and water but i understood why he'd done it whether he missed spoke or whether the i don't think he's a man who gets overtaken by emotion very often or or any of those things but the the horror of that day was so immense i i found myself harboring terrible feelings towards anybody getting in touch with the program with a yes but yes it's awful but Israel has been doing this yes it's awful but Israel has been yes it's awful but um you know let's go back to 1948 or let's go back to the 6th day war and i had no patience for those people because it seemed to me that that was a moment where you just report and reflect the pain and the horror and then the world began to turn the world began to turn and very very quickly you began to see that Benjamin Netanyahu was going to use that terrorist atrocity undertaken by Hamas because look i'm going to get messages saying that you never mention Hamas you never mentioned terrorist atrocities that is brainwashing

19:49you're hearing me say these words and you're sending me messages saying you never mention this or you never mentioned that it was one of the one of the darkest days i can remember in my life that October the 7th terrorist atrocity it was absolutely hideous but what has happened since is equally hideous in an emotional sense in a moral sense and if you want to measure human suffering in units of human suffering then what has happened since is worse and it has been done by an ally of the united kingdom with whom we will continue to trade even after these sanctions are brought in so how can anybody argue that by talking about things that have happened you somehow encourage attacks on people who share a faith with the man who has ordered the atrocities or the cabinet members who cheer them and i just don't really see it i mean

20:52if you were to think about it in a slightly different way then if reporting the atrocities encourages anti-Semitism or attacks on Jews and calling for the atrocities to stop encourages anti-Semitism and attacks on Jews then what are you actually allowed to do here without being accused of causing anti-Semitism or attacks on Jewish people what are you actually allowed to say nothing you're not allowed to say anything which means you have to live with the allegation you have to live with the accusation you have to live with the label because i'm not in the business of looking the other way nor are you so on this program you are allowed to say whatever you want both within the bounds of decency, legality and libel law and i want you to tell me your reaction straight up to what was announced yesterday the condemnation of ethnic cleansing by Israeli settleatorists in the West Bank a small but deeply significant attempt

21:56to send a message to our allies in the kinesis that this just can't go on this cannot continue and by telling people to stop ethnic cleansing or to account for a genocide you are somehow encouraging attacks upon people in this country i think you need to work a little bit harder to make that case and i don't ultimately think that you'll be able to a phone lines are open o3456060973 how can anybody truly criticize what was announced yesterday with a clean conscience commuting and tell me it is 28 minutes after 10 and it is absolutely heartbreaking that Benjamin Netanyahu has somehow managed to hemorrhage the sympathy of almost the entire world in the aftermath of the october the seventh terror attack by hamass on israel and instead turn his country into a place that is now being sanctioned by a long queue of allies why because they have shown no

23:00indication at any turn in the last three years that they were going to stop they killed one thousand more Palestinians after the so-called ceasefire was announced i think a similar figure of died in the West Bank over the last three years but hey don't condemn it or don't do anything to stop it let's all just carry on talking as the israeli president suggested yesterday chris is in five chris make it snappy mate i did a slightly longer introduction than usual i hardly my fault did and good morning i thought it was a very powerful speech i was slightly shocked and to hear for almost the first time i can remember the british government in its official position takes such a stance yeah you mentioned in your introduction but it reminded you of robin cook it reminded me not only of cook but also of the wonderful speech by toni ben when we were thinking about attacking a rakein i think in nineteen ninety eight that's a speech i still go back to that can bring me to tears i believe this speech by ed minne de band

24:03ed mille band will go down in those same annals it was powerful it was very considered and it crystallized that the united kingdom cannot have the stance that there should be a two-state solution and continue to go on as normal within israeli regime that has made it abundantly clear that they do not believe the palestinian people have the right to self-determination i i mean that dedicated to dismantling any prospect of a two-state solution to this and that is i think that the point that many people are missing but but the two points that many people are missing the first of course is that if this is really no big deal and it's not going to have any major impact and what on earth are they playing out then why is everybody responding so violently verbally with such verbal violence from from the uh... uh... israeli government right through to commentators in this country so they know how significant it is they're just desperately trying to persuade people that it isn't you've got the us ambassador to israel describing

25:03it milliband of hating jews which is an extraordinary thing to level at the jewish son of a holocaust survivor but he huckabee is going to huckabee and the other the other now i know i know i know but we still have to talk about him as if he's a significant figure in this conversation because he's the us ambassador to israel this is the one that Donald Trump built it is but the significant people have to be those on the end of such catastrophic abuses of international law and have to be yeah and and the other point that people miss is the one that you make is that this is a straight choice between sitting on our hands sitting on the the the british government hands while netting yahu and bengiveer and smotrich and the rest of them continue their expansionist ambitions despite being in direct and recorded contravention of international law absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the government has any desire whatsoever to stop it so you either sit by and watch it happen or you do something and admit it has done the same i was delighted as well as delighted to to hear it and i thought he gave the speech very well

26:08and and it did remind me that that had he been better at eating bacon rolls we could have had um a very different history in terms of prime ministers but it was it was a joy to hear um well there's nothing joyous about the situation but a joy to hear um the foreign secretary in his official position this is not a bank bench or this is not somebody resigning from government this is the government saying we do stand for a two-state solution which has to be the only way to go forward and as i said is israel um in its official position has made it more clear than ever before in the last three years that they do not consider such a thing viable the right to the self-determination of a people is enshrined in international law we have to stand up for that um we we haven't stood up for much um in in that regard but if we can then we place ourselves again um on the right side uh of of oppressive versus oppressed i do have some concerns about anti-semitism um

27:09quite right there are always concerns with that and the thing is it could be true and anti-semitism is it is it is an evil mindset and of course you might watch events in Gaza and attack Jews as a consequence you might watch sanctions be introduced and attack Jews as a consequence and that makes you disgusting and it makes you criminal but the conflation cannot be policed on one side of the argument and not on the other you can't have Benjamin Netanyahu claiming biblical justification for what he's doing and then saying oh don't bring Jewishness into it you just can't he's ridiculous but he quite likes both sides of the cake well he's also accusing everybody of lying at the moment not just ours of course and an an ed miller band but also um the UAE president uh who Harets reported yesterday her called Netanyahu in September of 2023 to deliver a harsh warning that Hamas were planning an atrocity of exactly the kind that was subsequently perpetrated and uh as far as i can tell Netanyahu has responded by to this by threatening to sue but you're unlikely to see much mention of that coming out of the mouths of people who are currently dedicated to attacking

28:12ed miller band Chris thank you the phone lines are open oh three four five six oh six oh nine seven three how significant is this moment are you heartbroken by it are you encouraged by it or and the best traditions of this program are you something else Dominic Ellis has your headlines 1037 is the time um Rebecca embassies and up next i just want to add another question to the mix that i didn't really fully articulate earlier and that question is this how how did Benjamin Netanyahu manage to turn the sympathy of the world into criticism and condemnation so acute that even a historically very supportive some would say supine you can choose your word a supportive or supine ally like the united kingdom has finally decided to act against his regime how has Benjamin Netanyahu managed to do that to israel oh three four five six oh six oh nine seven three but the broader much simpler question to answer is um how do you respond to this move by your government

29:18Rebecca is in basalton Rebecca what would you like to say hello good morning and just I say big fan uh and felt like i this is something very close to my heart i felt like this is the time i was gonna call into the first time um but my it i guess i'm encouraged by it and if i can tell a bit of personal background as to why um i was brought up in east land and uh went to a Jewish school um my family in israel um and we were taught two things very intensely taught about the holocaust quite rightly you know and and the and the slogan of never again was you know every year we do a whole term on it you know and we went to Auschwitz and Treblinka and had a really harrowing week of this awful thing that happened and it is awful and it was terrible and the words never again never again never again yes um and then i and my grandma loved israel she it was a she sadly passed but it was a whole look is a love affair she had with it and um we went on a school trip amazing country and i always assumed i'd live there um until we went to Auschwitz

30:25and we were standing in a circle and we're in my in my teacher's praying and it just was like how can this be a thing this is awful like it i lost all my faith in that moment that genuinely was a complete turning point for me because how could god allow this to how i mean it's one of the great philosophical questions of the of the human rights isn't it but all the other but how can like i kind of it religion is a ho on i know that's a messy topic is how can we live in you know how can we how can that be a thing where the visual Jewish this is a thing yes so then again so then you've got this like love affair with each other you know i do it's an amazing country what a shame i'd love to take my children there and i don't think i ever will because of all of this i just think because of what Benjamin Netanyahu has done yeah but my grandma lived in fish she used to say to me it'll happen again Sarah it'll happen again and that's my sister but Rebecca she used to say to us all the time oh yeah you're gonna you know this is gonna happen again i'd go don't say that i want to have children please don't yes and she's right but she got it wrong at the same time

31:29and it breaks my heart because i'm like why was this strung into me at school just for you to go and do it again that's how it really feels yeah and that and that because i see the pictures and it makes me furious because you know no it wasn't a waste of time the story you just told of the little girl in the car and this is one of the reasons i felt compelled to call in i've been to jirus in uterus somewhere in his ishar there's a yad for shem which is a holocaust museum and you go in a very beautiful dark room and they read out every child that died in the holocaust and they asked you to remember one name and walk out with that name and then you tell that story and you just think what what what we're doing and so when Ed Milibar and i do think it's pointing to him he's from a holocaust survivor he's saying what you know we're not know you're going what you're doing this is too far the kind of feel like saying like you said too little too like no but a better late than never yeah but you know and i just and i just the whole conflict i kind of go a bit new on it because i don't feel like i'm sitting the jirus community anymore but i

32:32equally understand why anti smithism anti smithism isn't is the way it is and because i can't i just can't comprehend it but i also feel like i'm the jirus people that are you are comprehending it you're helping other people listening to this comprehend element of it but your perspective is obviously very personal yeah and i have to speak to jirus people and and they'll be and i understand why they there's a lot of fear you know there's a lot of trauma that it feeds through and i know that's my experience this i i feel so i'm saying it's not like will you do it and i go oh no no i won't be because they automatically presume you're in favor of what has happened in gaza and the west bank if you do say yes yeah but then if you speak to someone that's jirus and you don't that it's discussed the response is discussed and i understand it is fear i understand it is well it's your grandmother's fear it's your fear of it happening again and therefore i think and you'll know more about this than i do but i've spoken to a lot of people over the years i think that that and i do understand this completely that fear morphs into support for whatever

33:36is done by whoever is in charge in israel when when they either dress it up or don't even bother dressing it up as an act of self-defense everything is justified i discovered that doing phonons about it years ago and then it came back like an express train in the aftermath of october the seven because people move very quickly to nibbling at the edges of the assertion that i don't care how many Palestinians die it's justified and that is why you suggest that your grandma got it the wrong way around yeah and and like i said the thing that that really and i kind of i remember being at school and i was going in the Balkans and stuff and yeah so this idea of never again is always baffled me it's like you you i feel like they need to add on never again to us and then we can all go oh that's what you meant you know and i feel like that's where i get really stuck in the throat if you like where i just think would you mean never again you know like why have memorials like Auschwitz for example if we're going to then like you know the um i've got this name but he

34:36put up a video didn't i an AI video is going on we're going to do that again what we get really get really museums in you know and i don't think that i think you're putting up the AI video of Palestinian people going down a sort of convey about looking happy and well fed and then going into an Israeli facility and coming out looking emaciated and broken what what why why have i have to grow up learning about the trauma i think and it does impact me a lot and i can tell it about it i can tell it then to see i just it's and that's why i think it i don't understand why this doesn't happen soon now but i'm glad i'm hoping i'm you know obviously with the changing our leaders again yeah hopefully we're onto something brighter in terms of more action that is what that's a genuine hope i don't know how much i backed that up but that's why hope and this is a start of that and hopefully we'll see another area as well but um yeah i just i felt compelled to say thing because i do understand why it's viewed as anti-semitism i do and obviously that anti-semitism is real and it's vile and no one knows more about it than Ed Miliband's mother or your

35:39grandma and and and yet to use it every single time somebody says please don't kill little girls like hindraja please don't kill anybody else please stop killing and and you know the same way that after October the 7th you looked at hamas and said you are despicable you are a bit inhuman stop and yeah the idea that that makes you is lammophobic or that criticizing netanyahu makes you anti-submitted i think it hurts people like you more than it hurts almost anybody actually yes because i don't i don't view myself as an Israeli and then to be brushed with that and at the moment i wouldn't even say view myself as Jewish because not be that's a lot to do with what happened when i was in Auschwitz and stuff but that's a separate thing but if someone taught as you know i would find it baffling and i and i admire the people that go the the Jewish people that go on protest and say no we're actually we've done a great anti-srael protest like credit to them because i think there needs to be that differential it's mad that there isn't but that kind of

36:41i was like it's that kind of uh just just reading the headlines isn't it's that short-sightedness but i and people like swelor bravaman and many others actually not all as far out as her they're calling them hate marches and and trying to get them prescribed because you if you allow criticism it just spreads the understanding of what has gone on that you've articulated quite brilliantly it just spreads and spreads and spreads which is why they have to say it lies and it's why they have to say no journalists allowed because quite quickly people could see that the response to the october the seventh terrorist attack was not a response to the october the seventh terrorist attack it very quickly became something much bigger and much worse yeah and it's almost no in a way it's no different to what was happening uh the Nazis filming the concentration camps because they want to go look how good we are look what we did that was the plan and like they use clips of it in shindas this and things like that and you sort of it feels like that it feels like they're going yeah they we don't want you to tell your version of it but when it works we'll tell

37:42you our version of it and look how good we are and it just feels really you know just hard disgusting i don't try to think of fancy word but it's not it's really bleak and i think we're seducing it to be other anything other than like use of ethnic cleansing and what i just don't know what we're doing and i just i'm so pleased that Edmund van has stood there and gone no we're done with this now because because the alternative is continuation and this is just so blindingly obvious that you wonder where 80% of the commentary this morning is coming from what is the alternative they don't nobody's offering an alternative either we carry on or we don't and our allies have so far not done a lot to make sure that we don't carry on and Edmila van and and Andy Burnham let's remember this will be on his watches is on his watch they have a can ask your weird question oh thank you thank you because you've spoken a lot about your personal background and i understand your battle with with with your relationship with faith everything you've said has been really really inspiring to me do you think that somebody who wasn't Jewish could have made the speech in

38:48Britain in 2026 that Edmund van made yesterday um i think yes but me personally would it have had as much weight no yeah they could have made it but i think it maybe it would have been the anti-temperors might have been amplified you know like you can almost disqualify some of that because you know well he let well the Jews said it's a must be true do you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but i wonder if it did come from the wasn't Jewish people would go there's another one doesn't like us either you know and i definitely definitely would and that's why i think that it would have probably not been delivered in quite the way that it was yesterday no thank you for that i i can see that this you know the news is not something especially when you've got personal investment like yours that you can just turn off like a like a film is it it stays with us all the time sometimes and and this issue perhaps more than any other for you yeah yeah and i do and i i mean this is first time i guess i've sort of spoken out loud about it if you like but um you

39:50know my brother and he's white he's white stave saying oh we've looking to trip to Poland and we're gonna go to Auschwitz and this is the first thing that comes to my mind this what's going on now not what happened the years ago because i and i said it was powerful and i and i think everyone should go there and and it's all for which one of the worst things i've ever done but best things i've ever done yes and i was like 15 you know and i and i and i think about it all the time i'm member seeing a rabbi the thing that most point is that seeing a rabbi just break down he just fell apart and that for me stood out so much and i just think that you say it's kind of that i don't know let's do something with what we're learning and we're just not and i think i have kept to myself for throughout all of this because it just feels so helpless and it's escalating every time i listen to a show or read the news or whatever it's escalating it's escalating but no one's doing anything about it you feel like you're going mad like but we know what this looks like so why do i know what why is it what we're doing and i've been having a good nose doing your job but you know i kind of just feel like it was not it maybe this it's this could have been

40:53three years ago brilliant but a lot or two years ago a lot not yeah i mean it was always hard to pinpoint the moment at which the response became disproportionate but as we've as we've discussed it it moved into something much more than response pretty quickly 12 12 nations including France and Canada now announcing it and and it looks to me as if this has been masterminded by that by the British government this shift in our position after a summer of intense diplomacy and and you're right it's the scariest thing though isn't it hope hmm yeah yeah clean it onto it yeah all the time Rebecca you just take care all right thank you thank you for that a lot of love for you coming into the studio some criticism from a man called Nick but otherwise love coming in for you and and the position that you have made it's 10 to 11 10 53 is the time the chief rabbi the British chief rabbi describing yesterday as truly a dark day for British Jews the longest serving member of conservative friends of Israel describing it as a

42:00as a moment for freedom and and decency and Ed Miliband the son of a holocaust survivor accused effectively by Sir Efraim Mervis that the chief rabbi of emboldening those who use hatred as a weapon against Jews I there is a danger in I think there's a danger in attributing any form of logic to anti-Semites just as with all racists that the idea that this is a logical position that that is somehow a consequence of logical processes or thought processes is in my view wrong it's it's it's a visceral ancient hatred it doesn't even have to be ancient of course but it is not a kind of mathematical equation whereby x plus y equals z and the chief rabbi seems to be suggesting that it is or indeed that all British Jews will be well let me tell you how Ed Miliband responded to precisely this point when Nick Ferrari asked him earlier this morning

43:05you reference the Jewish community there is considerable concern and you spoke movingly about your Jewish background as well but you were aware that the chief rabbi says this was and I quote truly a dark day for British Jews he goes on to say it could further embolden those at home and abroad who use hatred as a weapon against Jews your reaction to that well I speak as a proud British Jew and I don't believe it was a dark day for for British Jews obviously I have huge respect for the chief rabbi but I believe it must be possible to stand up for British values of the rule of law freedom and dignity let me just let me just let me just let me just go ahead just a point I'm sorry freedom and freedom and dignity go ahead and stand up to anti-Semitism and the key point I made in my statement Nick is British Jews or Jews anywhere should not be held responsible for the actions of the government of Israel I know that is anti-Semitism. I heard your say the answer I hope but you are a supremely well educated man and you know that's nice

44:05to say where you are as someone who is so blinded by hatred but you honestly expecting them to be able to see the division that you are correctly calling for they won't foreign secretary they will be to use the word they will be emboldened I don't believe they're right many of my listeners are bright not all your voters are not all of my listeners are and that's what we've got a guard against foreign secretary we absolutely have to guard against it but we cannot set our compass as a country by as you put it people blinded by hatred we have to deal with them we have to arrest them when they commit crimes and we have to do absolutely everything we we can to protect the Jewish community and that is what we will do so I hadn't listened to that in full before I'd listened to elements of it obviously that's somewhat inconveniently or it makes the point I was making you are blinded by hatred you're not sitting there going oh that's changed I will now change my position and my reaction anti-Semitism is a blind hatred you are as likely to indulge your

45:12anti-Semitic vitriol as a consequence of watching the British government do nothing to stop ethnic cleansing as you are well I would personally argue that you are less likely to indulge your anti-Semitic vitriol as a consequence of watching your own government do something to stop the ethnic cleansing but of course that's the point that that that Nick I think unintentionally made there that you can't be possessed of blind hatred while at the same time be responding with a sort of form of logic to impetus and provocation and and I mean almost all of the right with media in this country at the moment is in a tailspin it doesn't know what to do front page of the Daily Mail Milliband accused of putting Jews in UK danger at the same newspaper of course that described Ed Milliband's dead father as the man who hated Britain how about Holocaust survivors son accused of putting Jews in danger in the UK and then you'll get an indication of how bent the coverage of these issues has been how difficult it is to just find a light and find a truth and I and I

46:15don't do this very often because it always sounds a little bit kind of chocolate box there's no earthly way I could have got through these conversations without you not just the people who ring in Rabbi Jeffrey who's son Sam Rangin yesterday all of the callers today Rebecca being the latest in a very long line of incredible human beings who've helped us navigate this territory my friend Bella who emails me regularly on this subject about her family in Israel no Gatana Polsky and Jerusalem I mean it is sometimes when you see it Milliband accused of putting Jews in UK in danger as the line that the most prominent right-wing newspaper in the country adopts and and and remember that they could equally have published Holocaust survivors son accused of putting Jews in the UK in danger when you see the chief Rabbi talking about a dark day for British Jews when so many of them have queued up on this program to condemn the actions of Benjamin Netanyahu and to plead with Western

47:16politicians to do more and now they are let me squeeze in Amar in Watford Amar what would you like to say good morning James I wanted to raise double Sanders in this country on two fronts I think you have alluded to one of them just now the chief Rabbi says sanctioning the legal immigrant illegal settlements announced an attack on British Jews he is the one that's treating Israel and British Jews as one and the same if action against Israel is an attack on British Jews he's saying that two are one and the same and that's exactly and he's exactly the same person who asks why anti-Semitism happens to British Jews when it's exactly that conflation beating criticism of a foreign government as an attack on a domestic community that blurs that line and fuels the conceals and doesn't blur does it mean it just wipes it out entirely and Netanyahu has been doing it for years and I mean and you know you've you've got to be better so you try to to police that conflation and then the people who are complaining the loudest about the conflation do the most conflation

48:21it's insane when you see it you can never unsee it but some people I guess are willfully blind absolutely and the other guilty party on a call out rude really gets me as the far right guess who is screaming loudly about sanction sanctions against Israeli settlers the far right are they people just scream about illegal immigration in this country are the ones that are cheering on an illegal settlement invasion of the West Bank the same the same got it is but the same British flag waving patriot well I haven't seen it myself I'm not I'm not going to challenge you because I'm sure it's true yeah but the point here is that these are I mean these are actual refugees false to come air via routes that are now technically illegal or irregular and what you have going on in the West Bank as Ed Mideban pointed out yesterday is genuine terrorism so we treat refugees like terrorists and the people who treat treat refugees like terrorists want us to treat terrorists like victims yeah the same the same it's really good

49:22you know I'm many on many protests regarding illegal immigration they carry Israeli flags with them as well I haven't seen that myself so again I'm not calling you a liar but I'm just saying I haven't seen that myself online this many many many places and just one thing not lasting on to the call out sorry about the UK you know these sanctions that were announced yesterday I think reassuring however the UK remember has a lot to answer for here it created this crisis in the first place with a 1917 balfa declaration it's the end of the hour it's the end of the hour you can't we can't start 1917ing it now and I'm not I'm not being glib or flippant I'll be brief but no you've already finished I don't mean that rudely I'm late for every juncture now I've got to start but you're right read I mean no well quickly in a sentence because I don't want anybody to think I'm cutting you off or closing down yeah sure a ban on settlement goods a century later after the balfa declaration is barely a first step towards the wrong Britain has never fully righted there you go there you go brought it in bang on time almost five minutes after 11 is the

50:28time I'm I'm minded to move on this conversation of course we conducted everywhere today but I do think the single most important element of it is one thing on which perhaps everybody could agree is that conflating the Israeli regime with Jewish people is deeply dangerous and the best place to start the process of stopping that from happening would probably be with the Israeli regime or indeed with the chief rabbi because I don't understand how you can say oh you're not allowed to do that thing that I'm doing and if everyone can agree that no one should do it then we can begin to make some process some progress here I may take a couple more calls on this because it's obviously such a deeply important issue but I also want to reflect upon something that sounds relatively trivial in comparison but we'll feel anything but for the people caught up in it including members of my family so I got that message yesterday the flight's been cancelled and I thought oh god I walked through the newsroom I came off air yesterday I know I heard a

51:29bit a chitter chatter about air traffic control but you know I'm a busy man I had stuff to do and I hadn't thought of contacting my family members to say oh there's something a bit funny going on with air traffic control you might want to look into it and then you get to the airport and they say the flight's been cancelled and there are no more flights to London from this airport for four days and I don't know whether we're going to do a phone in on this because it may be that we carry on with the conversation that we've been having the bottom line is what the hell do you do in that moment so I yesterday evening was trying to find routes out of Greece routes out of the bottom of the Peloponnes back to London and as I was watching the screen trying to book flights that there were seats left on a flight and by the time that verified my payment that comes back as a sorry that can no longer be processed and you go back through the process and there's no

52:29longer any seat so every Britain Greece last night yesterday evening is like doing what I'm doing finding a way back so you can't fly from there get yourself to Athens you can't fly into the Heathrow or get with yourself just that I felt like a spy I felt like an espionage expert trying to get an agent exfil trait is the word isn't it I was trying to exfil trait two agents from Greece back to Britain and and I succeeded but only two days late so two more not two days later I mean I just want right anyway I'll move on briefly but if you are caught up in this or if you've got family members caught up in this you've seen the cops right at the airport in Germany just wheeling out beds I think idea of a holiday ending in a way that is going to bring you back home more stressed than what you were when you went on holiday is extraordinary so what what is what is going on in your world on that front I we may get onto that we may not it is eight minutes after 11 and Johnny is in Bristol to continue the conversation about Ed Miliband's speech yesterday

53:33Johnny what what would you like to say yeah hi James yeah I wanted a cool because Rebecca I've did a similar emotion towards what's going on so I actually my name crack well I go under name cramps hello and thank you you're the guy that turn me into a kind of um I yeah kind of rapper I suppose right I'll share some links later in the in the day but thanks for that that it's nice to put a voice to the name well there's more for Carmichael it's just been a bit of a difficult journey in recent times but um we can get on to that no there's so a part of the reason is that I chose the name cramps because of my Jewish heritage um I've never been religious I used to just like going to Hebrew classes immensely it was very aware from a young age that it doesn't make sense like much like Rebecca how can God exist when certain things happen in the world but I had very positive experiences through the induced part of my social life when I was younger I had

54:34them went to the macabre games twice I don't know what the macabre games is but it's kind of like a Jewish Olympic I guess in Israel and I also managed to get to play football in Hawaii because I played football for a club called Wing Bait and Finchley which gave an opportunity for let's say aspiring footballers for today sort of semi professional so I've had some great experiences um the last time I went to macabre games was 13 years ago and just to go on what Rebecca said about Yad for Shep I went there and although like I said not being religious not believing in God it was a profound experience for me and it's so profound that we went there as a group as a football team and the squad be actually we went there together and I was so long in there they thought I'd gone I came out of Yad for Shep and every good God because I walked through to King everything reveled the scriptures listened watch horrific videos because my grandpa and granny escaped a ghetto they were actually warned well told by a soldier because my grandpa was a pianist much like I am but he was a pianist and he was very entertaining and he was quite charismatic

55:37not a very nice man at the end but at the time very charismatic and uh they escaped um he managed to bribe some German soldiers on a train and they managed to get a spritz so I've warned that story or told that story many times although it gained not being religious and I'm at this point in an hour where I chose the name crans as a little heritage because it should be my surname my grandpa my grandpa just look for people who don't know that's your sort of uh the artist's name that you use that's your name as a as a musical artist who who makes what I believe are called banging tunes so just just just just people who aren't following that bit of what you're telling us but the rest is easy to follow yeah yeah so so I just as a chahelites because I I've always warned that I'm Jewish but I'm not religious so I've always very much self-a I am I don't know part of a race I don't know if that's the right way to put it but I have a history it doesn't matter the thing is it doesn't matter how I view myself where I view myself as Jewish or not people will view me as Jewish. Well include and I'm gonna say this carefully because I didn't say it to Rebecca

56:39and I know you all know it yeah um including the SS so it wouldn't matter to the SS how Jewish you were or whether you went to synagogue or whether you were observant or devout or any of those things you you would have been rounded up regardless so I always think that gets sometimes about overlooked by people whose family history is more like mine than yours. Yeah I had a discussion with someone recently he said well you don't think you're Jewish you're not Jewish yeah and that's like wow and then you did honestly you're someone who reasonably bright and I was like that maybe it doesn't matter yeah like it really doesn't matter what my opinion is and that's why I have to speak up so I have to try to be one of these people so I am not easily I am Jewish I even am not religious I'm Jewish there is a separation and it's been so hard for me because I've had some really big arguments in my family unfortunately my dad died earlier this year. So thank you we had you know you're arguing to bat it I'm not talking to my brother as much as I used to by any means because I saw things at the start I watched certain people I want to give a shout out

57:44to Kolkowlinsky of secular talk I think he's incredible and he's always been very factual driven and there was a lot of information that came out that I saw that I believed to be sort of true try to share this my family and don't don't will for ignorance don't want to listen thought is it is it is it that any critique of what Netanyahu's regime is doing is is is wrong I mean it can't be allowed whether or not it's it's anti-Semitic or not we'll probably get onto but is it is it simply the case that you you can't have a conversation that is not one-sided yeah I think it is well whether it's Netanyahu I think it's just Israel okay I think that now the you know for growing up and it's weird though because Israel under yet's had rabbin is an unrecognizable country compared to Israel under Benjamin Netanyahu if we're going to use the word as a sort of synonym for what the regime is doing and what the regime represents but

58:45but that's the that's that this is where we go if it happens again mentality it doesn't actually matter who's in charge yeah Israel itself supersedes humans as as the place of refuge and the place of safety so we can never criticize is I get it you can never criticize Israel doesn't matter what is happening you just can't criticize Israel because it's where you go when it starts happening again yeah but even though how how can it be safer when you have missiles do fight I mean I'm always like I live I've lived in London well now I'm Bristol I live in London did the British yes I had had you know I had a knife held up to my throat when I was younger in Edgeware but you know things happen you know I don't dance tarnished every single non-Jewish person and someone is gonna hold a knife up to my throat right and I've had anti-Semitism in Bristol when people said someone's obstacle being Jewish and I'm like women are Jewish and they're like no you're not I'm like what because I don't have a long side but I'm not wearing something on my head yeah and I think the problem is is that it's Israel as a whole I don't think it matters there's this whole ingrained Israel's the safe haven Israel's where they sent Jews to be safe and

59:46I'm like oh sorry how do I cancel that how do your family account for critiques like or I mean like mine or like yours or for someone who's not Jewish is why I'm fascinated by the question of whether or not somebody who's not Jewish could have made the speech that had made a bad made yesterday but how do you offer do your family think that everybody who criticizes Israel is and is being anti-Semitic yeah I mean yeah in a way yeah I mean I when I spoke to my problem when I sit on my sister one one of my sisters I don't know listen to this but you never know I said to be right we all I was talking about what happened to both villain and all this the sort of scenario around that say how I didn't feel was anti-Semitism yeah and I said about well you know about rabbis as well and she was like no that's bull I'm out of weight and I'm like yeah she literally said that's rubbish and I'm like and what can you do I mean I can show footage I can show video I can I can say you've seen this I spoke about the animal directives literally about a month after

1:00:48it happened I tried to talk to my brother about it I said there's footage I've seen footage of course we don't definitely definitely know but again the sources that I watch in this until have always been both consistent and have generally been correct if not they say look we can't verify but I I mean it's a weird one this and I just for people who don't know it was um rabbis like Charles Baginski and George Levy saying that the Israel's direction poses an existential threat to Judaism that's the UK's leading progressive rabbis warning about that in a way that got covered so carefully and so fairly by the British media that your system managed to be entirely unaware of it and there are plenty of other examples of this as well but but here's the thing I get it I actually get it I've always got it and I always will get it and and I don't want it to sound like it's sympathy for ethnic cleansing apologists or anything like that but that holocaust and maybe this changes with the passage of time and we spoke to somebody yesterday who felt that it was another Jewish man who felt that it was already changing but that and I know

1:01:52that the foundation of Israel was not a response to the holocaust although it's often perceived as that for a whole bunch of reasons but that line it's where we go when it starts happening again you and Rebecca have both talked about the your experiences at Auschwitz and at the memorial that I get that I get how that would if you know you try and imagine what you'd be like if you were someone else if my granddad had died in the holocaust and Israel was the place of safety in this world when the whole world turns on us again I think I could easily have been one of the people who will see no evil here no evil and and speak quite a lot of evil but the things in me is I'm a humanist I like this is what I don't care I'm someone who looks and goes yeah that's you know what that's my history but like that's so many other people's histories as well yes it is in a con he's a huge amount of people and you know it's not that long ago before we're so continuing now in the past it's has happened I'm a humanist I don't take a Jew or a Palestinian

1:02:56or a Christian or anybody differently I do them as human and when people separate it although yes of course I understand like my brothers got to two I think it goes to a Jewish school and they have security there this doesn't help like this is what I'm trying to say I sit on this you're making my life now more in danger because of you what you're doing you're reflecting is on Jews and the chief rabbi doesn't definitely does not talk on my behalf 100% does not speak to me and say that has a British Jew I have this not I'm sorry I'm my own individual I like I said I'm a humanist everybody's life is equal and I posed this question to my brother my dad a few years ago I said but you do see a Palestinian baby and a Jewish baby is his equals I don't you yeah and I think people don't and my brother said something to me and whether people here in this will recognize my voice recognize me I said to my brother we spoke about it's best well some people just do other people's lives as not as much and well that would also be true of Hamas wouldn't it on October the 7th and other I mean an anti-Semitism involved seeing a Jewish life has been worth

1:03:57less than other lives as well but that's the beauty of humanism is that you reject both of those positions very with equal value yeah you get I understand you know but I've said to my brother for years can you read the powerful declaration I know you don't want to go back there but I said years can you please read it it changed me but I was having a debate on Facebook and a guy said well how do you know the powerful declaration and I was like hang on I don't I went and read it I came back and I said thank you because I didn't know about it I was like I want to know more yeah I might be a very opinionating human which I am but I'm willing to take the information that I don't know then read by Jess and see like well what can you can I have now and that changed into me knowing there was an agreement it was put in place that's not being that the hell the need factors got worse and worse it's just sad it's sad it's sad it's sad it's sad on an international level it's sad on a moral level it's sad on a human level for you it's sad on a on a family level you know know I don't know fractures in families are terrible things talked about them a lot in the context

1:04:59of the far right rising in this country of Brexit and Farage but for Jewish families you've got this entirely different dimension this entirely different experience and it is just really really sad maybe that's the starting point Johnny everyone who feels sad can come together and and begin the process of of de coupling I will tell people a little bit more about your other work a little later when the tone of the programmers has shifted slightly as it surely will thank you mate and thanks for all the stuff you've done as well because I love it 20 minutes after 11 is the time I'm just going to read you some in Johnny before you go you're still there because this is Jonathan Portes has who's a brilliant academic at the King's College London where he's a professor of economics and and public policy I'm a big admirer here's he referred to that statement by the chief rabbi that you spoke about a minute ago by saying the chief rabbi speaks for Netanyahu Ben Gavir and their apologists in this country Ed Miliband speaks for me

1:06:01and many other British Jews and and I think we need to hear more of those voices don't we and that's why I'm grateful to you for being here today it's 1121 23 minutes after 11 should I do some professional presenting for a moment I mean it'll never catch on but John Ronson will be joining us at about half past 12 today to talk about his incredible new book The Castle that is where I discovered the statistic I've been hitting you over the head with recently about there being a million middle aged men in the United States of America who could be accurately described as needs not an education employment or training the book is subtitled adventures in a world of unraveling men and it looks at all sorts of examples of men who are just not really coping with the sea of conflicting ideologies that we're all in at the moment he follows some extraordinary individual cases and like pretty much nobody else writing today he gets to the heart of some of these issues in ways that I wouldn't have thought were

1:07:05possible in in a hundred books let alone in one and so John will be with us at half past 12 at the end of the program today we will be with Reen App Yoruth who is the Welsh First Minister I think I may have been a little bit remiss on my promise to be more mindful of politics in in Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland than I am traditionally so we're trying to fix some of that as well and of course at 12 o'clock today you got PMQ's which I am because I'm weird slightly excited by the second outing for the new ish prime minister Andy Burnham and after half past 11 today we're going to talk to George Graham not that one from Save the Children on the response of what you might call the international humanitarian community to what Ed Miller banned announced yesterday but before that I also do want to talk about what's going on with the air traffic control and and people who are literally stuck and this is this is you know I've got a wife and daughter who phone me or text me to say we don't know how we're going to get back to Britain and I'm like

1:08:09can't be because I'm a 21st century boy right so I'm thinking I should probably not have said that out loud should I am a 21st century boy I'm an old git it just happens to be alive in the 21st century and I thought well we'll get it'll be easy we'll be able to get back you can get get you know get get get get get yourself to Athens you can't fly out of the airport that you're near get yourself to Athens do this do that we'll be fine and and we couldn't it's like days you're looking at how do you get well it's going to be days and you're not going to be able to fly back to the airport where the cars parked first world problem obviously but this is absolute chaos Chris is in south Hampton apparently it's all your fault yeah apparently it is all my fault feels like that way I was uh yeah I'm so I'm flight crew was flying on on enough Friday and that was the day when it's a bit more minor news but a an aircraft couldn't vacate the runway in that way it can get back based and that aircraft called the bunch of our aircraft to be converted because it couldn't land there is a like that we've got a glitch on the line you couldn't

1:09:12make this up could you I lost that then so what why why couldn't that why couldn't that aircraft now the way it couldn't it couldn't get off yeah it couldn't get off the way because I I hope the lines okay but yeah it couldn't get off the runway because it's not a wrong with it so landing wheels when it landed they were the wheeled managed to turn basically 90 degrees to the direction of travel so they couldn't get off so our aircraft couldn't land it went that somewhere else so we went out of hours on a flight on Friday and that's the first time they've ever done that and then the second time they've ever done that was yesterday so if they said two in a row and it was yeah quite a quite a Celtic day where we didn't get a lot of information so I don't think there was any information to be given so it's a shame for so do you do your your your pilot are you or I'm but you're in the front of the plane um and you don't really know what's happened no absolutely not no unfortunately yeah so so when when I reported um it just started um so everything the airport seemed relatively okay was all

1:10:16hopefully gonna blow over in a matter of minutes um there's only once we kind of got the passengers on and we said that we were ready to go that um you could start to hear the chatter on the frequency that no one had a clue what was happening including unfortunately very patient and I can't praise enough the air traffic controllers who the no one else were answering every question in the best possible way they could because every pilot wanted to know exactly what time it was gonna go yeah they did brilliantly really um given the circumstances but at one point we were given a bit of hope when they said that a certain departure can go so you're heading in a certain direction we're allowed to leave only that because they'd go out of the UK space the fastest and we were one of those I can't do it. It must be what it's like talking to air traffic control during a storm I'm sure it's nothing like that Chris thank you I just just to clarify because someone's confused in my inbox that was not one plane that then caused the massive right out was a completely separate incident that Chris was was comparing what happened subsequently to um I mean you've got another

1:11:20190 flights cancelled today by British Airways alone of course because crew and planes are out of place following yesterday's disruption 260 and this is just one airline flights cancelled yesterday and what I found weird um not gonna dwell on it on julie I don't think because the conversation we're having about other matters is so profound and important but what what I found weird was my naive supposition that I'd just be able to work it out you know I've got to get two family members back from Greece and their flights being cancelled and then I the full scale of the problem became clear to me and you're not going to get anything today or certainly you weren't going to get anything yesterday an option of flying to roads and then then kicking your heels for six hours and then perhaps getting a flight to east midlands airport or something like that I couldn't believe that in the 21st century and the way that we've all been raised I couldn't believe it was possible just get stuck somewhere and we're just stuck there's nothing we could do there's a glitch

1:12:23with the air traffic control control system back in the UK so we are stuck we might have to swim home or we might have to hire a car or or or we might have to fly to another European country and then hopefully get on the Eurostar I fixed it all because I'm super dad but it was extraordinary that moment once the panic had subsided about getting them well no the panic rose but my initial reaction was oh this will be easy you take it easy I'll deal with it all at this end because you're in an airport and your phone's low on power and all the usual family stuff that we've all dealt with I'll deal with it and then realizing actually everybody in Greece is trying to get out of the country and that won't just be greasy it'll be everyone flying back to to to Britain it'll be Spain and France and you know even Middle East and countries and everyone's trying to book up flights so when's they filled up really really quickly and I just missed that one and I could only get one seat on that one and I want them to come back together first that as you suddenly realize this is what they mean now the government has been adamant that this is not cyber warfare this

1:13:26is not a cyber attack and I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I would add they would say that wouldn't at this point but when you hear people on this program warning about the war that Russia believes it is already waging against us Vladimir Putin of course the politician that Nigel Farage admires the most on this planet although I presume Donald Trump is giving him some competition for that title at the moment Donald Trump's been insulting the king by the way I must tell you a little bit more about that before halftime you hear people going oh yes there's cyber warfare I think Luke Harding was here the other day wasn't he talking about how Vladimir Putin thinks that he's at war with Britain and that war is being conducted on technological fronts so most obviously by polluting our public discourse gaslighting and brainwashing people so that you get events like the ones you saw in Dover and Portsmouth this weekend it's not just about the the messages it's about the amplification of the messages and the way that they're being put in front of people

1:14:27and and Brexit and Trump and all the rest of it but then it calls cyber attacks upon our infrastructure and and the government is adamant that this was not a cyber attack but if it had been the absolute metaphorical carnage that can be wreaked upon our population simply by messing up one computer system I don't think we're really across that or properly conscious of it it's 1131 Dominic Ellis is here now with the headlines it is 26 minutes to 12 you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC so we know what the chief Rabbi thinks about the British government for many people belated in position of sanctions on illegal settlements occupied in part by people he described as terrorists at we know what quite a lot of British newspaper editors or British newspaper owners or British newspaper columnists think about it I thought it might be helpful to find out what Action Aid UK saved the children UK Quakers in Britain

1:15:30Amnesty International, Carboe Medical Aid Palestinians Christian Aid, War Child Women for Women International War on Wants, Islamic Relief, Global Justice Now, Cafford, Oxfam, Muslim Aid find out what they think about it and happily George Graham who is the executive director for Global Impact at one of those organizations save the children is with me now so so that's 16 charities that I can count and today you speak more or less as one George? Yeah that's right I think all of us are pleased to see that the government has moved to a position that more clearly clarifies that the Israeli settlements in Palestine are illegal and from our point of view humanitarian organizations the issue is less to do with the legalities to do with the impact right and I represent save the children and the impact on children of having often violent settlers disrupting their lives attacking them making it very very hard to do things

1:16:38like get an education and also really quite severely affecting their mental health that's what we're concerned about and this is a clear signal that the UK agrees with us that that's not a really attendable position. I mean that's the point it's a clear signal that the UK is deeply unhappy about this there's not much prospect in the short term of the lives of the children you and your colleagues look after measurably improving is there or is there? Well the politics of very very fragile obviously and you know I'm not any better equipped than anyone to sort of guess what the future is going to hold and what impact this UK government decision is going to have but the reason we think or a reason we think it's really important is because all children around the world or people around the world regardless of who they are regardless of their race or their religion or anything about them they should have the same basic rights and for those rights to be upheld

1:17:39there needs to be a sort of consistent international approach to everything and in our view what the UK is doing today is just being more consistent right it's applying the same basic standards that it applies in lots and lots of other conflicts around the world and that's a good thing because it means that those children who have the misfortune of growing up in an occupied territory have the misfortune of you know being the children of the enemies of a state their lives don't have to be harmed as the consequence of that they get the same chances to have a thriving childhood as any other child and it's not just the UK of course yeah I think that you know that that was that's notable that the French the Canadians and other governments are doing the same they're making the same signal I mean I don't really want to talk about politics because I'm a humanitarian so let's talk about that and so good good good good good good good me an idea of what the difficulties representatives of organizations like save the children face when they're on the ground in places like that the West Bank and presumably Gaza as well if you can get in yeah well let's start

1:18:42with Gaza I mean it's it's basically impossible to overstate the catastrophe that has happened in Gaza and 21,000 children have been killed and just over the weekend 73 children were buried children who'd been who'd been killed in airstrikes were under rubble for years in years in years they were dug out and they were buried and we know there are many many more still under the rubble but we can't get the equipment in to clear that rubble in order to give them a decent burial so that's Gaza in the West Bank you have a different situation where children are trying to live normal lives they're trying to go to school and access hospitals when they need to and so on but the whole terrain is cut up by these Israeli settlements and we've had this problem that we've heard a lot about in the last few days of very very violent settlers attacking groups of Palestinians attacking Palestinian villages killing children and from what you asked me what the impact is for representatives of organizations like ours it means that it's very very hard to move around

1:19:44endless checkpoints endless disruption and the result is you know kids not going to school for weeks and weeks or months on end because they just can't get to school or because the the quiz takes two three hours to get there and they risk being beaten up if they try so that's the sort of thing we're dealing with and I mentioned at the start about the mental health impacts of this and and you know we often think about physical health and that's obviously a serious concern in somewhere like the West Bank but the mental health impacts are shocking I mean these kids are dealing with this every single day and it's you know it's having very obvious impacts on them insomnia anger agitation fear insecurity all the signs of poor mental health it's a really serious did you think this would happen I mean I suppose in your line of work you have to be an optimist rather than a pessimist don't you because you have to believe that you can turn back these tides of misery did you did you you've taken by surprise personally by yeah I really like what you just said that I mean I am an optimist actually I always think that we can do better as a species

1:20:46and we do do better there's lots and lots of progress that we see in the world and and yeah and it's and it's a real privilege to get to work in an area where we make a difference for people and to answer your question yeah I was actually really surprised I mean I've I've worked all around the world in many different war zones and and one of those has been Palestine so I've been thinking about Palestine for maybe about 20 years and thinking about different governments responses to it and you always get the same line you always get people say yes we know it's a very difficult situation but there's really nothing we can do and finally we have a UK government saying actually there are some things we can do and and let's start doing them and that's since a very very powerful signal and although as we were saying earlier no one can predict the future and the politics of really uncertain we're optimistic we're optimistic that the tide is turning but you and and I presume your your your sort of fellow organisations for the purposes of today's conversation would like to see more as well and and actually British public opinion is largely behind

1:21:48you on that yeah I mean this is the start and and I think you know the game changer is the is the British government now acknowledging that the occupation is unlawful and so that then has a flow of consequences because once you've said what the current situation is unlawful then it becomes untenable not to take actions as needed to make that situation come to an end and it should be possible for Palestinian kids to have roughly the same freedoms as Israeli kids or indeed British kids any kids and not to be living in fear to be able to go to school in safety and so on and this is a step towards that and I really hope that that you know that vision of a future of a happier future that I've just described does come to pass and it's possible I believe I'm I probably have to believe that in a way we all do George thank you George Graham the executive director for global impact that saved the children UK they're speaking on behalf of his own save the children and 15 other organisations I'll run through them again in a moment welcoming

1:22:49the Forest Secretary's announcement in parliament yesterday which they say brings the UK closer into compliance with its legal and moral obligations to uphold international law and protect Palestinians they describe that every day their staff and partners witness the intolerable suffering inflicted on Palestinian communities made possible by the impunity that has been granted to the Israeli government for its ongoing atrocities and those 16 organisations once again Carbo action aid UK medical aid Palestinians save the children UK Quakers in Britain amnesty international ski af Christian aid war child UK Islamic relief UK women for women international UK these are all the UK branches of the charities war on want global justice now Muslim aid cathode that's the Catholic charity I put plenty of money in there envelopes over the years and Oxfam G B it is coming up to 1145 I kept Esther on hold for hours so let's fix that now Esther is in

1:23:51Newcastle Esther what would you like to say hi Jane that's a really good to speak to you I'm a long time listener thank you and calling as an orthodox Jewish woman and I'm calling about what you said I verify it that turning the canals cited biblical reasons for the expansion and the settlement and everything yes so I wanted to say that that is just absolutely totally wrong nothing young as government are not really just orthodox they don't describe to the Bible they don't learn the Bible and that I mean do not seek guidance from religious scholars who study the Bible and that no but they seek they he seeks justification for for what he does with kind of slightly I mean clumsy and ill informed biblical references right right okay but he's wrong yes I know that I don't you but you're not correcting me are you you're just helping my listeners come through a better understanding of him yes exactly and you're allowed to correct me as well by the way

1:24:52just to be absolutely clear you're more than welcome yeah I'm helping you listen to understand that let's know comment was completely he shouldn't have made that comment and he doesn't make any sense well what about these because it's not just him the chief rabbi in this country as well is saying that the the move that we've just heard the 16 charities humanitarian charities responding to the chief rabbi has chosen to describe it as a dark day for British Jews was it a dark day for you and no and I don't know exactly what the chief rabbi said and if you're saying that he's probably just afraid that other people will turn one to submit it for me I guess I'm guessing that's why he would make such a comment a truly a dark day for British Jews it's labors gesture politics and it will he says further emboldened those at home and abroad who use hatred as a weapon against Jews so I mean that that is what his argument is and I mean I would only see how that

1:25:59would make sense in the context of assuming that people will use these kind of things to be anti-Semitic against British Jews well that's a conflation and the past he why but I know I guess I'm not completing it and I think he's wrong for making such a strong comment but I guess it comes from fear of people who are completing it yes yeah I mean that's the unravelable ball of string isn't it is that the people who fear people conflating it conflate it yeah yeah yeah it's just absolutely insane as to thank you I'm sorry that I kept you waiting for so long you're listening to Jones Ibron on lbc I can't talk about Donald Trump again I mean I'm supposed to talk about and PM Q's is on the way shortly the insult that he's directed at King Charles overnight I mean

1:27:01a hideous insult in many ways but we're so used to it by now remember this of course is the man that Dick Little John of the Daily Mail thinks or wants to be governing the united kingdom that I just use him as an example of how absolutely bonkers much of the right wing media in this country is the worship for Donald Trump appears to continue and nothing breaks it so I was going to tell you about him insulting the King instead I think I'm going to share with oh well I'll do both but what would be the one thing in the anniversary the 25th anniversary of the September the 11th terror attacks what would be the one thing that you shouldn't do I let okay that normal people shouldn't do it doesn't work either so obviously celebrating them is going to be disgusting but if you I mean what would be the one job you just say don't lie about it right wrong it's 1151 you are listening to James O'Brien on lbc extraordinary events in the United States

1:28:03America and almost the kind of almost reassuring sense that you can still be shocked so at the 25th anniversary of the September the 11th terror attacks is almost upon us it falls well you know when it falls but it's going to be on Friday this year and we will pay proper attention to it at the time but I was going to talk to you about Donald Trump posting a adopted video on social media in which it is made to look as if a man working for Azda fainted in front of the king and the king did absolutely nothing about it just sort of stood there with his hands in his pockets and and appeared to walk away in the full video he did the opposite you know he moved quickly to try to stop the supermarket employee from falling and only walked away only stepped away when it was clear that he was receiving medical attention but what one of his sort of mad followers has put together footage of world leaders seeming to ignore people in distress while

1:29:05Trump is depicted as the people's president I mean this is full on totalitarianism or fascism or whatever you want to call it because it's false I mean it is it's like Stalin raising trotsky from pictures it's just utterly utterly false but this is what his fans like Dick Little John at the Daily Mail lap up right they love being lied to even when it comes to the single greatest peacetime atrocity visited upon American soil um he was speaking from the White House yesterday when he claimed well you you listen to what he claimed you just think my people I took a lot of my my I was building a big building in New York and I took the whole crew down there right after this happened and they were they had no hesitation everybody went down with me we went down as a big group of people wasn't too much we could do I'll be honest it was it was raw nobody seen anything like it ever we had other buildings the United States steel building was creaking really creaking

1:30:09now we thought it was going to fall down the truth is it creaked a lot it creaked it still creaks but uh it never came down and I remember I'll never forget two firemen we thought it was coming down on top of us and two firemen big strong guys and I'm not the smallest guy in the world they grabbed me under the arms they got to get out of here and they literally lifted me up this is not easy to do I'm big they lifted me up and they started running with me I said fellas I can run myself but they were amazing but they thought it was coming down it didn't come down US steel um asked for evidence for Trump's story or more details about what supposedly happened the White House did not provide any it was miles away from the World Trade Center that is no that has been I just think about this for a minute uh some people can't be reached some people have have put everything they own on Donald Trump so they can never ever step back but think about this for a minute it's been telling this life a years by the way and he just unrolled and braviled it again at the White House yesterday claiming to have been carried away by fire fighters

1:31:13amid fears of an imminent building collapse at some point after the attack literally nobody has ever corroborated or supported his version of events so what happens is um the White House fails to provide any details about what happened uh and then the White House sends out an unsigned email saying he was a private citizen at the time not everything he did was documented and then later in the day his spokespeople um uh it's someone called Davis Engle on this occasion start attacking the media president Trump spent the morning paying tribute to the heroic first responders who laid down their lives to others in the September the 11th attack and honoring their incredible families the president was relaying his experience of a city and and under on it goes the failing legacy media is using this to try to attack him it's a disgrace and yet another reason why Americans trust in the media is at an all-time low so the president lies about something as significant a september the 11th and his minions tried to turn it into an attack on journalism trying to turn it into an attack on journalists funny that we began the program

1:32:17this morning talking about people who attack those who told the truth and here we are again back in April press conference about the war in Iran he um well you have a listen to to what he did in April and I predict all of it I predicted Osama bin Laden would knock out the world traits and I made that prediction a year before he did I said you better get him he's a bad guy I watched him be interviewed one time and I said that's a bad guy you better get him one year before exactly I wrote it in a book you can even check about a year before the world trade center then came down president Clinton actually had a shot at him and he didn't take it unfortunately I'm not blaming him for that but he didn't take it and he ended up knocking down the world trade center but I predicted that I predicted a lot of things anyway Dick Little John at the Daily Mail thinks that this guy should be governing the United Kingdom better in mind um he said didn't he you can

1:33:23check so you can check the books called the America we deserve um this is what he wrote one day we're told that a shadowy figure with no fixed address named Osama bin look well this is what somebody wrote but the book was published under Donald Trump's name one day we're told that a shadowy figure with no fixed address named Osama bin Laden is public enemy number one and US jet fighters lay waste to his camp in Afghanistan he escapes back under some rock and a few new cycles later it's onto a new enemy and a new crisis I find this extraordinary I said I tell you again I'm really sure that I can still find this stuff extraordinary after having so much of it over the years I guess it's because of the significance of September the 11th right it's because you know he'll lie about everything and anything but you still think somewhere inside well he won't lie about that there've got to be some things that are sacred he won't he won't spread doctored footage of our king yes he will he won't lie about September the yes yes yes he will um and he's been doing it count them for 25 years

1:34:27as you walked around and as you saw the piles of rubble there are thousands of families out there who are hoping that someone might be in a pocket somewhere still alive still breathing waiting to be dug up as you assessed that damage from your perspective do you believe that's possible well I would certainly not want to be the one to say it's not possible certainly it's it's a tough situation but you can't give up hope because there's always hope I mean the five men I'm sure their families thought that they probably were gone and now they walk in the door a couple of them walked away after they were dug out so there probably are some more people in there and therefore you can't give up hope he wasn't a ground to I mean he simply wasn't and finally one thing we do know that he did on that day on the actual day September the eleventh two thousand and one is this Donald you have one of the landmark buildings down in the financial district 40 Wall Street did you have any damage or did you know what what's happened down there well it was an amazing

1:35:28phone call I made 40 Wall Street actually was the second tallest building in downtown Manhattan and it was actually before the World Trade Center was the tallest and then when they built the World Trade Center became known as the second tallest and now it's the tallest 2,977 people dead oh and he's lying it didn't become the tallest building and that's the man that did little John of the Daily Mail thinks should be governing this country or wishes was governing this country I fascinated by all of the people who used to use that phrase trump derangement syndrome there he is insulting the king oh yeah well you know that's and here he is lying egregiously and repeatedly about the September the eleventh terror attacks there's nearly three thousand people well well more than three thousand people who have died as a consequence but just under three thousand on the day absolutely extraordinary and I think I went through a little period of not doing this because it just felt pointless it's never pointless

1:36:30admit about kind of proof that yesterday the truth is never pointless just keep telling the truth and eventually it matters and that is what we've seen on the domestic political front in the last 24 hours and what we will hopefully see soon on the international political front but it is too the domestic political front that we return now in a tasha clock is here PMQ's number two's number two it's you presume you're saying that in reaction to a being Andy Bern in second prime minister questions yes yes of course and yeah as you were as you were just saying and you've obviously been speaking about the the Israel news the Palestine news for the last 24 hours it would seem like a bit of an open goal for Kemi Bade not to go in on this she wants to make this a bit of a dividing line doesn't she she doesn't agree with the decision and the British public does and many Labour MPs as well so it could be an issue that will get both sides animated Edward Lee doesn't Edward Lee doesn't as you played Edward how does the Tory do we know how the sort of parliamentary party breaks down on this I mean it historically Labour support Israel so

1:37:32it's not necessarily written in the stars is it no it's no it's not but I think what you've heard from Kemi Bade not over the last 24 hours is she's trying to make it about security concerns she's trying to make it about anti-Semitism accusations on Britain streets and how British Jews feel and obviously you do have some you know very prominent Jewish voices including the chief Rabbi voicing their very measured concerns so will she use that to try and further her argument on this case I think probably that's the case also other options that she could go for the economy obviously John Healey making a major speech on Monday talking about what will be in the budget or what won't be in the budget his principles going forward changes to the Treasury rules changes to how he thinks that the country needs to go in order to see that growth that obviously has been alluding for so long and obviously what you've been also discussing James Smallboat arrivals and over the protests that we saw in Dover and Portsmouth causing that major disruption over the weekend do they speak as one on that I mean it sounds like I'm plugging my newspaper column but I have written today about how they both need to come out and describe essentially I don't use

1:38:36this word in the column but fascism as fascism you know Ersatz paramilitaries dress to intimidate arriving with their faces covered in the middle of British communities that they haven't been invited to and simultaneously a woman being battered in public at the Reform UK party conference by fans of Nigel Faradji then goes on to laugh about it and compete with Leanderson and Robert Generickford who can be the most class and offensive and victim blaming is there any chance what so ever of them joining forces to say this isn't British and this isn't right probably unlikely hmm it'd be good though I mean baby not would come out looking fantastic if she said does the Prime Minister agree with me that this behaviour is utterly utterly well let's find out shall we Mr Speaker after last week's session the country was thrown into confusion over whether the Prime Minister was or was not going to fund 3% for defence by 2030 after today he'll have another five weeks off PMQs but there are some serious threats to national security that cannot

1:39:42wait his Chancellor resigned as Defence Secretary because the Labour Government would not increase defence spending to 3% by 2030 does the Prime Minister think he was right to quit Mr Speaker as I said last week I appointed this Chancellor because of his strong commitment to the defence of this nation that was the reason why and we will honour our NATO commitments 3.5% by 2030 and a target date for 23 and that will all be set out in the spending review Mr Speaker I don't feel though that you get the right to come to this House and claim the moral high ground and point fingers wherever you can when defence spending was 2.3% of GDP and fell during 14 years of a Conservative Government on this issue I think we should do more problem

1:40:44solving than point scoring and I say to the right hon. Lady we would do our armed forces well if we could agree on this crucial issue more across the floor of this House. Mr Speaker the Prime Minister wants to talk about the past on defence spending so let me refresh his memory and the House I remember when he was shadow home secretary when the Labour leader wanted us to leave NATO disarm on nuclear deterrent and defund the army so I will not be taking any time to say that he says the target is 2035 is a decade away if he can't get to 3% by 2030 why should we believe he will get to 3.5% by 2035 the spending review is next year last week I set out how we would get to 3% by 2030 the threats are now Argentina is threatening the Falklands now Russia is threatening us in the North Sea now and Mr Speaker he did not answer my question

1:41:49he did not answer my question the Chancellor was right to quit I asked him if he was right to quit the Chancellor was right to quit which is why it's so wrong that he's not sticking to his principles the Chancellor used to say not hitting 3% by 2030 would put our troops at risk he also said Kirstnermer was unable and the Treasury unwilling to provide that funding so is the Prime Minister unable or is he just unwilling to get that money by 2030 Mr Speaker this Chancellor of all Chancellor's will be willing to provide that funding to our armed forces back our defence investment plan this this government's commitment Mr Speaker to the defence of this country is absolute we've taken the strongest possible stance in supporting President Zelensky and Ukraine we are playing our role around the world and we will continue to do so Mr Speaker she mentions the plan that she has set out and this is why I say we should have an honest conversation

1:42:51across this dispatch box because I I looked at it and I don't think myself that taking 4 billion pounds out of housing benefit is going to get the right consensus around this issue because that would create levels of homelessness in this country Mr Speaker that we wouldn't have seen before hundreds of thousands of children in temporary accommodation can I say to the right Honourable Lady yes we do everything to support our national security but it can't come at the expense of social security having strong national security also also depends upon having resilience in our communities this side of the house will not be forced to choose between the two and we will set out a plan to get to 3.5% by 2035 at the spending review

1:43:52yes I mean they're not unbelievable Mr Speaker the Prime Minister would say that he is clearly unwilling we need to fund our defence not spend all of our money on welfare and cannot believe that he would actually say that he is clearly unwilling but Mr Speaker there are ways to do this he's not unable there are ways to do this on Monday Chris Rockless Britain's third biggest taxpayer and now he was leaving the country that's 330 million pounds of taxes walking out the door because of this Labour government every year Mr Speaker 330 million his taxes could be going on defence the Prime Minister is talking about spending more on welfare the benefits bill is set to rise by 32 billion pounds on him the benefits bill is set to rise by 32 billion that's not all of it that's the rise that money could be going on defence the Prime Minister wouldn't approve the Rosebank oilfield 1.4 billion pounds of tax revenue that could be going on defence so will the Prime Minister tell the country where is he going to find the money to fund our defence

1:44:59so Mr Speaker I can't comment today on decisions that are quasi-duisional decisions but we will take a pragmatic approach to oil and gas as I've said before at this dispatch box and let's get to the heart of this question Mr Speaker as she invites me to do and what is the right way to fund defence and yes bring the welfare budget down so she would make crude cuts to housing benefit and as I've said if you take 4 billion pounds out in the next few years you will make families homeless you will increase rough sleeping on our streets so here's the labour way the way that we do it on this side of the house we have set out plans for the biggest council house building programme this country has seen in a generation and if you look at research from the National Housing Federation

1:46:01you will see that is the route to save billions from housing benefit we will shortly respond to the final report of Alan Milburn who is looking at the issue of young people not in education employment or training again something left behind by the last government we will take the labour way change education support our young people more mental health support that's the labour way to get the welfare bill down and I say through the underworld lady that is the right way to fund defence no it is not Mr Speaker the truth is he doesn't know where he's going to find the money fund that's what I see doesn't know where he's going to fund my friend he's talking about anything except defence council housing he won't fund the military I tell you what he is funding though Mr Speaker I tell you what he is funding care farmers 35 billion pounds surrender of the Chegos Islands and its crucial military base that is British sovereign territory

1:47:08this is a weak decision and it is no wonder that Argentina is now threatening the foreclams we need to project strength we need to show that British sovereign territory is non-negotiable so why just like Keirstormer is he planning to surrender the Chegos Islands Mr Speaker I have to say to the right hon. Lady she does have to do better than that I mean they are they are the worst they are the worst kind of points to be scoring when the country is watching we will not surrender our base at the Ago Garcia we are in discussions with the United States about that and we will always respect the rights of the forecland islanders to choose to be British that will never change under this government and we will be relentless in defending that

1:48:08Mr Speaker we are talking about paying 35 billion pounds to give away British territory and all of that is happening while his government is canceling 30 million pounds of vital training for British soldiers the Prime Minister may be new to the job so let me tell him what may not be in his briefing paper last year, last year defence funding fell in real terms that is on them to govern is to choose so why is he choosing to spend 35 billion pounds to maricious when they cut the money to train our troops Mr Speaker I don't think she is on strong ground when it comes to defence spending it was 2.5% of GDP when the last Labour government left office it was 2.3% of GDP when the government she was in left office it's now set to be 2.7% in the next year so that

1:49:11is the reality of the situation Mr Speaker a government that is strong on the defence of this country that is what we are doing it's why we have set out a defence investment plan that will be fully funded I say to her again it would be better to work across the floor of this house to get a fully and securely funded path to 3.5% of GDP by 2035 that won't change under any government that would send the strongest possible message to our armed forces this is an area for problem solving rather than point scoring I invite her to work with us on that so that we can set out that clear path. Mr Speaker the Prime Minister seems to think that the last government was a Conservative government the last government was a Labour government and it failed which is why Kirstauma resigned he keeps talking about their record as if it was fantastic if it was then

1:50:16why is Kirstauma not sitting there where Britain needs leadership what we have at the moment is just vibes he said he appointed the chancellor because he cares about defence but he won't fund it other countries are making claims over our sovereign territory they smell weakness he's pretending that he's the change candidate but the fact is he's still failing to cut welfare he's still paying to hand over a sovereign territory he is still not funding defence so only issues that really matter isn't he just continuity care. Mr Speaker she mentions leadership let me tell her and the whole house where Britain is showing leadership there have been conservative politicians at this dispatch box Labour politicians to for decades who've talked about the importance of the two state solution between Israel and Palestine. Words from any politician about a two

1:51:26state solution will be only words if it's not backed with action and leadership is about taking action where there is injustice where we need to correct unfairness people being driven out of their homes losing their homes being intimidated in their daily lives I credit the father of the house who yesterday applauded the action that this government is taking in this difficult and dangerous world Britain has to stand for something Britain has to show leadership Britain has to stand for fairness against injustice where people are being bullied out of their homes intimidated we will always stand with the underdog and take what action we can to support them that Mr Speaker is leadership on the world stage Britain being true to what it's always been about that is what the British government British people expect to us and that is what this government will do Mr Baker I don't need advice from you I am not responsible for the answers

1:52:32the Prime Minister answers the questions don't look to me please write Sarah Hall thank you Mr Speaker Mr Speaker the Prime Minister grew up in worry turn so he will know our town has changed enormously but too much of infrastructure people depend on has not changed much of oriented hospital was built in a different century for a much smaller population while Brunefield's legislature is at the end of its life it's pool now closed on safety grounds will the Prime Minister come home to worry turn meet me and set out how the government will deliver the infrastructure my constituents deserve and I can say to my Honourable Friend I am a more regular visitor to her constituency than she might then she might realise constantly nipping in an out for various reasons so I know Worrington well I believe it is a success story actually something of a jewel in the northwest crown a growing town you could almost say a city it should

1:53:33be given how successful it's it's been in recent times but it does need new infrastructure I would like to see a remodeled Worrington banky with high quality east west north south connectivity running through it and when it comes to leisure Mr Speaker you know this as much as anyone in the house perhaps more than anyone this is a Prime Minister that will back grassroots sport to the Hilt and I can assure her I'm happy to talk to her about the leisure centre that she mentioned I'm watching more intervals I hope so and David leader of the Liberal Democrats thank you Mr Speaker can I associate myself with Prime Minister opening remarks not least on the 25th anniversary of the horrific terror attacks of 911 and can I welcome the government finally banning imports from illegal Israeli settlements something Kirstama should have done a long time ago and on back British farming day can I also celebrate British farmers but I hope the the Prime Minister will more than that and I hope he will end the family farm tax. Mr Speaker last week I

1:54:36asked about North Devon's maternity unit which is still closed this week I have to raise musgrove parks hospital where his Labour colleague Bannus Amos found the most challenging maternity estate in the whole country she described leaking roofs a ceiling propped up by poles and room temperatures that put newborn babies at risk. Mr Speaker no mother should have to give birth in such circumstances so does the Prime's agree that musgrove park can't wait until 2033 for work to start on a new maternity unit really offer a meeting to local MPs so we can move it forward and will he make fixing the maternity scandal across our country a top priority of his government. A fair question Mr Speaker let me first thank him for his support for my right hon. Friend's statement yesterday I think it is important that there is support across this house for

1:55:38what was announced we've all stood together for the two state solution the reason why my right hon. Friend decided to announce what he did yesterday when he did is obviously the E1 settlement tender concludes before the Israeli general election it was important to make a clear statement of where Britain stands for Britain to show leadership and that is what we've done but we appreciate the cross party support. On British farming I hear what he say I will set up more measures later I did look into the issues with North Devon Mr Speaker and he will soon receive an update from me he mentions musgrove park hospital in taunt and hospital I know Mr Speaker it points to a systemic challenge facing maternity services across the country as various reviews has said it is why my right hon. Friend the health secretary will next week be chairing a meeting of the

1:56:40maternity task force in the Department of Health and we will make sure all of the issues being raised including at the hospitals mentioned I'll look that in detail. Sir David and I think the Prime Minister for that answer Britain should be the safest country in the world to have a baby and we will keep raising this issue until it is. Mr Speaker the best legacy of the last Conservative Prime Minister is our world leading AI security institute this is now essential to our national security and global security in the age of artificial intelligence but today the financial time is reporting that anthropic did not submit its latest model to the institute for testing apparently due to pressure from the Trump administration. Does the Prime Minister think that he's acceptable for present Trump to undermine Britain's efforts to keep the world safe from dangerous AI? Yes. Well on the specific issue Mr Speaker can I say that the institute that he mentioned is

1:57:48indeed a a world leader and is in daily conversation with industry partners including anthropic and those conversations will will continue. On the broader issue he is absolutely right that AI poses risks to our national security but it also could be the source of solutions to keeping us safer and that was a discussion that we that we had yesterday. Mr Speaker it's why I appointed a minister for artificial intelligence to the Cabinet we have lifted the level of the conversation about artificial intelligence within government and the offer is open to colleagues on all sides of the house who want to be a part of that crucial discussion. On a day Mr Speaker it is clear to me. 22 minutes after 12 we will pick over the bones of what we've just witnessed in a moment and then John Ronson is here to talk about his new book The Castle and then I will be meeting I'd

1:58:51nearly said introducing you two but of course you've probably already met them but the first minister of Wales would be in the studio with me as well before 1 o'clock today I know what you're thinking you're thinking gosh James what a time to be alive. It's 24 minutes after 12 and at 8 o'clock is obviously just politically editor well you've done it again did she mention any other things? No I'll let myself out. I'm genuinely surprised that she didn't try to I mean because she reminds me of Boris Johnson in one sense which is that an awful lot of what she does that isn't motivated by being on Twitter is motivated by what right-wing newspapers are doing and they're all united in trying to condemn Ed Miliband and of course Andy Burnham for yesterday's announcements regarding sanctions so I thought she would go in on that she completely ignored it. I thought she would and you was expecting it as well because he had that thing prepared. At the very end of his final question to her he then used it to launch into a very powerful defense of why he's made the decisions that he and Ed Miliband have made on Israel on the settlements and what we saw

1:59:53yesterday and yes absolutely she would have been right to talk about all of the criticism of it the chief rabbi the the idea that it risks our security there's lots of sort of meaty topics for her to get into but she chose to do the same topic that she did last week and I would have done it well last but maybe she's come back for another go because she thought she might do better. She's done well on defense in the past right. Why I think she reached for that lever but I didn't think it it was very good this week. They all do don't they all like getting in tanks and things like that is that he was Johnston was in a tank to speak to herself. He's a man just reason may get in a tank list trust kind of tank. I mean they were getting tanks it's just tanks tanks tanks tanks tanks tanks but look I think it didn't work out well for I think we can agree on that in it it came across as as as I'd like I say just not really the the topic of the week and but he did have a very powerful answer on Israel I thought that we really saw the real Andy Burnham come out there and you know he comes across sometimes when he speaks is a little bit still to Andy Burnham and he speaks in quite a sort of sort of static way lots of pauses and he's I don't think he's a natural

2:00:55orator better than Keir Starrman. Do you think yeah absolutely I do like quite a distance actually where he comes into his own was was that question the passion the passion and you know he was he was writing on Instagram him I don't know if it was him or his start his team were writing messages on Instagram defending the deal sorry the announcement on Israel that the government have done yesterday and why they were doing it and why it was so morally important to him this is clearly something that really matters to Andy Burnham and you can see the passion and it just shows you when politicians talk about something they actually care about this is when the public see them at their best so I think that was the best that we've seen Andy Burnham in the last two weeks that was the most powerful question. Speaking with what do you think Gamy Baydon not really cares about because we've been watching PNQs together for some time now and I'd struggle to tell you apart from getting paid. Thanks. Wistley. He cares about Gamy Baydon or entangues but do we mean does she have areas of policy that she feels particularly passionate about? I think I probably reach for the lever of women in equality she genuinely see I think she would genuinely say that she cares about that about the area of sort of you know what she would what you and I would

2:01:56describe as sort of the woke debate that she's been having over the years and I think she feels strongly about culture and identity and I think that's what she feels strongly about and she does mention that at Prime Minister's questions a lot but it's not something that really gets to the heart of British sort of politics. No although it is a heart of John Ronson's new book and he'll be joining me shortly. No we can. Discuss it. I'm not even talking about that. It's like we planned this stuff. And Davey in sort of a fairly safe territory really on pointing out that oh hang on we've missed something. Did I see the ghost of Jeremy Corbyn? We did. He's the first time in a long time. I know and it wasn't even to do with Israel the Israeli government of Banzin which would be the topical. I've literally forgotten now. Why did she bring that up? Oh it was talking about defence and she said oh you know Jeremy Corbyn he you know it was a part of his party when he was a part of Jeremy Corbyn's party when he wasn't in Parliament. He wasn't in Parliament. Of course they're a part of the same party when he was talking about wanting to essentially pulling. They're not partly now. That wasn't that right wasn't it and also it didn't really work. Corbyn's position and goodness me this is why I

2:03:01think Kenny Badeonock is so wonderful because she's put me now in a position where I feel cove pelted to Fen Jeremy Corbyn which is but he's always said that hopefully the world will be so peaceful that one day NATO will be disbanded. Yes you never made active let's let's disband NATO now. So Burnham wasn't in Parliament at the time. Corbyn didn't say really what she said he said and even if he has there's no way of knowing whether Andy Burnham would have criticised it or not because he wasn't in Parliament at the time. Sure we just don't know we just and then David and then David and finally though we should point out what Andy Burnham said about welfare which I think is going to get repeated again and again and again he said we won't cut housing benefit to fund defence he has talked about wanting to get the welfare bill down but he's trying to make a new argument today which I thought was very interesting. Yeah I did. That he's talking about how we can't a national security cannot come at the expense of social security and he's trying to draw that argument of like if these people you know our country don't have houses if we don't have security we don't have safety in the places that we live in the place that we grow up then how can we sort of defend our country and he's totally

2:04:05right to make that argument it is going to be a very difficult one because you know including in the treasury people across government will always look to the growing welfare bill and say that that is where we should cut he's going to have to have this argument coming up. The one thing that I think Kenny Vadenock is right to raise and was right to raise a PMQ today is why do we have to wait a year until the spending review next year for Andy Burnham and John Healey to set out their plans for defence it's a long time to wait and Andy Burnham's clearly made an interesting choice in his in his Chancellor's ship and he says he said at the very top you know he says this Chancellor will be willing to find that money for our military of course everyone knows that but to be able to wait a year to do so. We don't have lots of sums to do. Don't they have to like yeah I've got to make sure it all adds up for sure. I've got to you want to find that money but the economy is looking so dreadful at the moment despite what John Healey was trying to tell us earlier this week and it's going to be really hard to square that circle. Would it be a pedantic of me to point out that it is almost two years to the day since Kenny Vadenock described statutory maternity pay in this country as excessive. Goodness well this is I won't tell you

2:05:09what I think about that. The championess of equality and women. She's promoted a pregnant lady don't you know. Well holy moly whatever thanks Natasha thank you so I go on what. I was going to comment on our Davey I think maternity and AI security are two pretty strong some strong subjects for for a Davey and if I think if you if you just go on maternity units and the maternity scandal we're saying every week I'm not saying he could win an election. But he could win a lot of new it might. He could win a lot of new votes. And I think with that Davey you know it's always coming from the place of authenticity and sincerity which you can't necessarily say about all politicians 12th though in fact we're indeed all people. Here is Amelia Cox with your headline. 1234 is the time. How many years is it since I said I was going to start a book club and it still hasn't happened but I do have the enormous pleasure every now and then of inviting authors that I admire and and want you to either discover or continue to enjoy into the studio and few fit that category better and more snugly than John Ronson author of a bunch of books but probably the best known or the biggest seller would be the psychopath test. Yeah. The new one the castle

2:06:12adventures in a world of unraveling men are beginning at the beginning. Where did the idea come from? Well this is a story that it crashed unannounced into my life. I was asleep and I woke up to a series of texts of my son and because there was panicked swearing in the text I think I have to paraphrase. The last text read something like it's okay that was terrifying but we left and we're safe now. So then I read the other text and it turns out that my son and three friends have been invited to a party. In quotes. Yeah. A party being held by a stranger that one of them had met a couple of days earlier on Tinder. Okay. So that's great already. So they head off. They head off and this man's house is a giant castle in quite ordinary surroundings though. Yeah. On a street of otherwise ordinary homes. Modest home, modest home, unbelievably ostentatious. But Disney fairy tale. Disney, it's gothic and bittersweet. Yeah. Too many torics. That's the

2:07:12main thing. It's like a vast number of torics. So they cross the drawbridge. Literally. Yeah. This is a rhetorical device. First thing the gargoyles are entered. Literally. Yeah. Enter the grand banqueting hall to discover that there's no party. It's a trick. Right. They've been tricked. There. Because he was in the company of some young females. Yes. So the castle owner comes out and they say where's the party? And he says no. I've invited you here for another reason. I would like you all to take part in my reality show. Oh boy. So they said what's the name of your reality show? It's called 101 Princesses. I'm the king. I'm looking for my queen and I have 101 princesses to choose. So I'm going to any sense of the women in Joel's party. Go downstairs to my basement costume room. Put on some princess costumes and come back upstairs for filming. So they went downstairs and put on princess costumes. One backup upstairs of videographer appears.

2:08:13Filming begins but they start to get the creepy sense that this isn't a real reality show. Not least because the videographer had this other job which was cutting up meat for the castle owner. This huge slab of meat. Anyway. So they get kicked out after a few. It's not playing ball. Right. Yeah. For a few things to participate. But not a good idea to invite a journalist to send to your forbidden castle. Because your antenna is now twitching violently. So I went to the castle and this is how the book begins. And it is not simply to tell this man. Although that couldn't probably have been a book in it up itself. Well he's threaded. Me too. I have to find out. Yes. But it is an examination of unraveling men or unmoored men is a word that you use as well and they can be coming from anywhere. But it's a zeitgeist. Yeah. I think most of all, well because what I thought at the time, so I go to the castle, he says some unwise things to me. Just to get me to sign an NDA, I refuse and then he starts

2:09:15sending me death threats. He says he has two murderers called Carlos and Brandon just out of prison for murdering someone. And if I ever write negatively about the castle, they'll be very upset. So I'm thinking this is right. But he's hiding something. But what? So I thought, okay, this is a man who's trying to be Hugh Hefner. Like him learning, as you say, the worst imaginable point in recent history. To be Hugh Hefner. Yeah, unless you hear the crevice, that is fear of influences. You can't do that anymore. So then I thought, well this is a book about men unable to do the things that they used to be able to do. And where will that theme take me? Let's pause there because that's an incredible phrase, isn't it? Unable to do the things that they used to be able to do. And also no one really told them that they weren't going to be able to do the things that they were always able to do until they suddenly discovered it. The most amazing statistic in the book is an, and our paraphrase. But we talk a lot at the moment about needs, which is young people, not in education, employment or training. But of course it's

2:10:18a middle aged malaise as well. And you find it, I think, about a million men in it. Oh, no, lot more in America, there's more than seven million men. Cut this more around middle aged men. Or in that age age. Right. Who doesn't do anything? Yeah. They are only unemployed. They aren't even looking for work. And I thought a lot about that, you know, they just, because for me, I'm sure you're the same James, I'll have sure loads of people listen to this of the same without purpose, without work, you go do Lali. Like I can't handle. If I'm sitting on a bench trying to think of a story idea, 10 minutes of nothing up to think of a story idea, and I just, I'm overwhelmed by this dreadful thought. I'm just a man sitting on a bench. And so there's all these that millions of millions of men and women, but I'm focusing more on men in this. And they don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. They've got no purpose. All the old structures and institutions are crumbling. And so some of them are unraveling. And they're desperately trying to find new ways to have purpose and meaning in their lives. And a lot of them, and this is what

2:11:21the book turns into. A lot of them are becoming content creators. Yeah. Well, I've been getting quotes, or traders. I don't know. I mean, this is something I've discovered recently, which I was thinking about while while reading your book is mums who are telling me that they're sort of 2022 year old sons are sitting in rooms with big computer screens being traders, but not actually making any money. Those are the same sort of phenomenon. Yeah. Yeah. Like institutions of one personal brands. And I think, and that. So I kind of explore that. What happens when you chase those algorithms. And you chase them to some really dark places. And some people succeed, which is the ultimate tragedy. In a way, it's always been the case. But these kids, these younger people, younger men, think that they're going to be the next so and so or the next so. And you speak to some of the so and so says the one who was presenting a relatively ordinary podcast did something on Mega Markle. It went bonkers because the hatred for Mega Markle has been very successfully commoditized by normal media on both sides of the Atlantic. And so this bloat then went on to make 70 more films about Mega Markle, who he'd never previously had an opinion about at all. Absolutely. And he is such a

2:12:25kind of, I think, product of our times. He went from making podcasts called The BBC's first blind presenter and her lovely dog, which got 69 views to wokeness is the most evil thing you can do, which got like half a billion views. I'm obviously fascinated by this for personal and professional reasons. How many of them mean it? Well, so he said to me, I'm the worst thing of all is I don't even mean it. Wow. And then so he clarified he is broadly anti woke. Sure. But what he don't we all. What he doesn't mean is the titles, the genetic weakness of wokeness and civil war is coming. Many of us will die. Then he has the most extreme cultural warriors out and tells them how brilliant they are. And that's the stuff he doesn't mean because you identify something called new, is it new season syndrome? Or you have to have this next, you have to keep going further. So when you watch the decline of some people who everyone can fill in, whichever

2:13:28gap they want with their favorite person who's gone on a very public descent into ever more insane positions, because you've got to build on last week's insane position by finding an even more insane one. Yeah. And it's creating, I think, a world and a country of just, you know, panicked, lost a drift rage of people just don't know it. Like, like, they just don't know what's going on anymore. So they're sort of reaching for rage. Hannick lost a drift rage. Yeah. Kind of brings just the Graemlinger and doesn't it? And you write, I think, very kindly about your former friend who I have two sorts of cards to meet. The first is does anybody really follow Graemlinger and career arc off Twitter? And the second thing is he won't think you've been very kind to him, but everybody else will. Yeah. No, it's true. Both of those things do it. So kind, I mean, given the fact that he's been tweeted about me like thousands of times in the last eight years, just, you know,

2:14:30I told my thought of Saturdays actually, I could bully him. The Gates of Hell opened. But yeah, I've noticed that. So since Graem discovered that he's in my book, as you can imagine, he's not thrilled, even though I think the book is a very, you know, that chapter of him in the book is, reasoned and thoughtful and so on. I heard, I don't know if this is true, but I read that in the last couple of weeks on Twitter, I've had quarter of a million tweets directed at me, 250,000 tweets. And imagine if that had happened 10 years ago, 10 years ago, it would have been destroying somebody. It just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. We're living in such siloed worlds that you delete the app off your phone and it just dissolves. Quarter of a million yells in my direction if that figure's true. And it just dissolves. Which is that good and bad. In my public shaming book, so you've been publicly shamed. One of my shames, Max Mosley,

2:15:30said to me, it's a pact. And if a shamey steps out of the fact, packed by refusing to feel a shamed, then the whole thing crumbles. I know what to do. It's happening now with Twitter. It's happening. People just don't... It's like the old tree falls in the wood thing, isn't it? But they carry on shouting at the tree. But what's better for them? Because in their bubble, in their silo, it means a lot. But what they don't realize is outside of the silo, it just dissolves into nothingness. And these are the panicking lost, the receptacles of panic lost a drift rage, although of course they don't recognise that because everybody else around them is in a similar... Yeah. On social media. The disinhibited man is the chapter that we're talking about. Just quickly run through what disinhibited means in this context and why it's a much broader label than one man or one person. Well, I told you know, in some of your public shames, I talk about how people started. Because of our overuse of shame as a weapon, people became unashamed. I equate it to hospital superbugs, sanitised and sanitised until they become

2:16:34impovervious to treatment. And what I've noticed in the last couple of years, you know, because of Trump, I think partly because of our overuse of shame as a weapon. And also partly because of the collapse of the old structures and institutions, people have mutated from unashamedness to disinhibition. I say of Graham, if anybody's been following Graham's trajectory, they'll, I think, no, probably know what I mean. It's like he's kind of, and he's one of huge numbers of people who've kind of ripped off their faces and allowed their it's to run wild. Just nothing matters anymore. And I kind of equate it to if you feel like you're not part, if you feel like society isn't yours anymore, you don't recognise yourself as part of society anymore, then anything goes, anything goes. And when you, when you cross that tipping point, it's, it's, I mean, for me, it's extraordinary that we're now creating a whole, well, a whole massive people are behaving in

2:17:35these completely disinhibited ways, when nothing matters anymore, just just blur it all out, all the rage, all the disinhibition. And getting commoditised as well. Yeah. And the owner of the platform. Yeah. And some of the people who were putting those people on their podcasts sell me that, you know what I don't even mean it. It's incredible. And it's brilliant. And it's pure John Ronson, isn't it, really? As you say, the themes that you've explored in your previous books are never far from the surface of this one. Sometimes they're quite far from the surface, but they're never entirely absent. No. Do you offer any hope? Is there any optimism? I don't know how much hope in the castle, but something happened quite recently that gives me a little bit of hope if you would like to hear it. Of course. Well, I was just at the cage fight at the White House. Of course you were. I was on the South Lord. I was on the, I was on the, I was on the on the card. I was, I was blood spatter close to the action. And I was talking to a fighter called Shorno Malley, who's a bit of a UFC heartthrob, always boasts about his one-sided open marriage.

2:18:38He's allowed to have sex with other women, but his wife Dania can't have sex with other men. And he would, he would explain on podcasts, he'd say, well, Andrew, take puts it very well. I have status. I have status. So I said to him, it's just a few weeks ago, I said, you've got an open marriage, surely that doesn't work. And he looked sort of sad and said, well, it doesn't work anymore. His wife, Dania, has refused to allow him to have sex with other women anymore. And he looks so baffled by this change in his fortunes. And so maybe, maybe there's a way, maybe, yeah, maybe Dania is all of our futures. You're on tour as well. You are going to be interviewed on stage. No, no, I'm doing it all yourself. Yeah, I've, I've basically had to, I was going to complain about not being asked. No, I took all of these video and audio clips. So I'm bringing the castle to life. Oh, brilliant. Oh, wow. That'll be amazing. You can find out more about that at Fain. Yes. website, Fain. Or your own website. Both JohnRudson.comFaird. I'm at Brighton tonight, York in a couple of days. Shrewsbury seems to be under. Okay, we need to sell some tickets

2:19:44in shrewsbury. Yeah. Shrewsbury. And people have shrews, roeians. Let me down. What are you calling? Get yourself down to that. So the castle, by JohnRudson, look it up online, buy the book and go and see him doing it in person, in glorious technical. John always a pleasure. Congratulations. It's another absolute smash. See you soon. James, there was a delight. It's always probably not the wrestling. Up next, the first minister of Wales. 12501 is the time you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Rein at Yourweth is the first minister of Wales. Has been since May of this year, former broadcaster of course. And I've just discovered a childhood friend of Aladjone who is spinning the wheels of steel in the neighbouring studio. We haven't got long. So I'm fascinated by what you think about what Andy Burnham has had to say about devolution in particular, because it should be applied come as music to your ear, shouldn't it? But of course the substance is going to be what matters most. Exactly. I take real positives out of what

2:20:46Andy Burnham's background is and some of the things that he's been saying, I've spoken with him about this. He clearly understands why it's important to get devolution right and he understands devolution from a Manchester perspective. And my job, and I think he understands this, is for him to understand what it is that devolution means in Wales and what changes we need to devolution in Wales in order for it to work better on powers on funding and so on. And I want to have that positive conversation. He's made it clear to me he wants to have it too and he's you know, look me in the eye and say I'm not going to bypass the centre, the Welsh Government, let's work together. I want to work in that constructive way. It's early days but I'm quite sure we can have a good relationship. What's the ultimate goal for applied? I mean everybody knows what the SMP wants. What it's applied's ultimate goal the same? Well I've come from the fundamental view point that the normal state of play for any nation is to be an independent nation but then you can have a philosophical argument about what independent means and it's certainly not isolationist. So when I talk about the kind of empowerment that I want for Wales, it's within Europe, it's within a

2:21:51redesigned Britain because you know we've got so much in common our best friends, you know, our closest allies will always be our friends and colleagues within these islands. So that's the kind of way I look at it. I see what I want to do as building up Wales, building up Wales on health and education and prosperity with the powers that we have now and then seeking okay well where else can we go with with this and taking the people of Wales with us, becoming more and more confident and you know what the more we're able to devise our own future the surely the better it is. I'm not sure you answered my question though, ring. Well the choices in the hands of the people of Wales, what I said was I believe that the normal state of play is to be an independent nation so that's what I believe. I can't impose independence on Wales. That's got to come from within. There will be a lot of people who vote for you who were vote for applied in recent years who aren't 100% driven by 100%. The key thing to me is that they, we haven't been convinced about this independence thing. Maybe they don't quite understand what independence is. Maybe they think it is isolation and it most right and I think within even with implied you'll have you know 50 or 101

2:22:56even definitions of what independence is. Ultimately it's about empowering ourselves. It's about how we work with us. How you know what what we're what leave as we want in our own hands. Where we're willing to share powers with others in order to make it work. And that brings us back to why you're currently quite optimistic about Andy Burnham's ability to grasp the bigger picture in the context of devolution and stuff. Not been in the job long. I sense you're enjoying it. It's a massive honor isn't it? You know I am leader of my country. I've been entrusted by the people of Wales to lead a government. Minority government so you know it's not a matter of we do what we want. It's a matter of working in cooperation with others and that's really really important. I believe in the plurality of views and making sure that you know people's views people feel that politics represents them so that's good. But I genuinely feel a sense of goodwill behind what our new government is trying to do. I think people get that we want to do this for the right reasons. That we believe in Wales. That we want to do the right thing for Wales. And I'm not confusing

2:23:59goodwill with political support which is a different thing. But one can lead to to the other. And I think we've reached a high point in terms of historic support for Biden. But it's not the end of it. The alliance keeps on being built I believe. You probably won. I mean since you became leader in 2023 the trajectory of the party has been probably even by your expectations extraordinary. My view always has been that you try to change the political weather. You know you try to set the narrative and you can do that to a certain extent. But what you also need to do is get your own narrative in order. Get your own house in order. So when things around you change that people look to you actually these guys over here they seem to be able to respond well to what's happening in the world. So for example the growth in the global phenomena of the growth in the political right. People could see that that applied really wanted to take this on and had a different viewpoint that the dissolution in labour in government. And

2:25:05people looking for an alternative people who had a more a firmer vision of what we should do. We were fit. We were ready. People said okay now's the time we're going to just by coming in give them a go. You mentioned that. And in the last couple of days focus of these people has turned to Wales on social media that we were talking to John Ronson about with with Rupert Lowe and Steven Yaxley Lennon and the reform leader in Wales Dan Thomas. Does he live in Wales? Yeah we were trying to keep wearing it. It's not for you to say I'll get Henry Riley back on the case. All posting a picture of a flag flying from the turrets of cowardive castle that came from 2024. I mean the Pakistani flag because it was independent state. I mean it's both serious and ridiculous at the same time. Absolutely right. In the sea obsession with flags. One of the first thing that they're financed spokesperson said in the Senate was let's tear down the Ukraine flag and it's all about let's only have such and such flag here and there. That's not what we're trying to do is it. On top of that with that particular issue about Pakistan flag being flown on independence day,

2:26:10we have very proud Pakistani communities in Wales on the rest of the UK. Why wouldn't we want to celebrate our diversity in that kind of way? And it's using disinformation. That's the world we're in. I was listening to your conversation a few minutes ago. We have to face up to that and say no, sorry we're not going to make do with that kind of simplistic view of the world. Or a peace. David's not very happy. He's just really, and I love you James, but this feels rushed. If I was Welsh I'd be offended enough set. So you're going to have to come back and come on my podcast next time you're in London if you can. I would be delighted to. I'd like to find out more about the journey from not for any particular reason, but the journalist from radio presented to leader of a nation sounds quite interesting to me. He fancy it to do. I mean bad news today on the education front where the England outperforming wails by some distance. Yeah, again, you know, these are the pieza results. It's one measure. It's only one measure. These are tests that were taken, of course, under the last administration.

2:27:14The thing is probably fair to make that clear. But what we do is, okay, this is what we have inherited. What do we build? Where do we go from here? I fundamentally believe across the board, whether it's health, whether it's on transport, whether it's in our national confidence. This is not as good as things can get for Wales. And it's certainly clear on education. We used to have a really proud education track record. You know, one of the first generally literate populations in the world. And that slip is something that I'm not willing to just earn a blind eye to. And, you know, we made it one of our core promises in this election to have a drive on numeracy, literacy, raise education standards, working with teachers, with parents, with pupils, because, you know, we can't just settle for this. It's a pleasure. Absolutely pleasure. There's an air. I don't know whether you agree that there's an air of new leaders arriving in post, in power, who actually seem to think that it is possible to do things differently. I mean, hope has been one of those words that's been used a lot. You've gone there. It's been used a lot, certainly. It's gone there. And it's,

2:28:17but it's all about that, isn't it? Yes. This business of, okay, if things aren't working too well, now most people would look across the board and say, you know what, we need to do better than this. We're there to see, okay, roll-ups leaves. Let's see if we can do it. Pleasure to meet you. Do you prefer being on that side of the microphone or this side of the mic? I find it creatively satisfying being on this side, crafting arguments, bringing people with me, but I ideally loved being your sides too. There we go. All additions answer. We have documents, definitely. No, no, no, no, we don't. No, we don't. We don't. We don't. We don't. We don't. We don't. We don't do the next three hours. Reenat your, thank you. First Minister of Works, as I say, since May of this year. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free global player app, or the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinions. Podcasts can law download them from the, so download the app actually, the LBC app or the global player from your app store. Now Tom Sorberit will be with you at four, but now it's time for the argument. This has been a global player, original production.