Elizabeth Lippman

0:00I was in, rose in, I was in, rose in, is your new best friend. I was in, I was in, with perfect good times never end. I was in, rose in, deep, we be good to dance again. I was in, rose in, I was in, new best friend. Hey everyone, hi, hello, welcome to another exciting episode of Alice in Rosen, is your new best friend. I am delighted to welcome to pod cabin director, photographer, woman I haven't seen in 24 years. Liz Lippman. Hello. Welcome. Nice to see you. A long time. Yes. Lots has changed. So much has changed. We're both on the West Coast now. We both have children now. So we met when I was in New York, it was shortly after I had moved there, I was assigned a story for 17 magazine. Were you journalistic full time at this point? Yes. I was freelance at that point and then I worked at time at New York in New York and then I

1:02went, yeah. So I, and then yes, well I'll get into the, the me of it all first. Let me just establish, establish this momentous reunion that we're having. I was assigned a story for 17 magazine about the Christian rock scene and the popularity among teenagers and kids and they wanted me to go to New Hampshire because there was something called the Inside Out Soul Festival. You were the photographer assigned to the story and then there was, you had an assistant named Todd. Yes. Do you remember your nickname for him? No. Hot toddy. Well, that's perfect. He was very charming. We stayed friends for a very long time. I, I, he was my dog and all that. He was a friend. He was very sweet. Yes. He was cute too. Hot toddy fixed, fixed him, fitted him, was appropriate and then I remember I ran into him at a bar like a couple of years later. I was like, oh my god, do you remember me? We had that crazy experience. Really? Do you remember like, do we, do we, do we all stay together? Like, do we? We stayed in the same hotel, but we had separate rooms. Because sometimes they would try and be like, can you just say, we don't like, no, he's

2:03a dude and he's a, and his girlfriend would not be happy with that. Right. Yes, he had a girlfriend. Yes. I remember. When they told me we were all going to New Hampshire, I wondered, are they going to put us all in one hotel room? Like I hadn't. I later traveled for work and I realized that no, you always get your own room, but at the time, you don't actually have to leave that room anymore. They're doing this super and cheaper. I can imagine. Yeah. I mean, now they'd be like, here's a studio apartment, Airbnb. Good luck. Good luck. Here's a pillow. Yes. Putting your budget. So we drove, we rented a car. No, I had a car. Oh, you had a car. That's part of why I, like, I mean, I had, was shooting for 17 already at the time. I had been doing a lot of there. I am 17 stories, which were like little mini bios of someone extraordinary. And like there was an Olympic runner who was a teenager and stuff like that. So we do things like that. But I had press plates. So I was one of the few people that I knew and you're like, what are you? We were. License plate had a press. I was saying on IP 3878, that was me. I didn't even know that exists.

3:04Yes. How cool. So I got that. That's part of why I like even kept up my newspaper connections and weight passed when I should have was because I used to get, they sort of sponsored you to get your, press plates. So what would that allow you to do? You can park in lots of places that you can't park otherwise. Of course, while there's designated my people are all over the five bros, you could do truck parking for at least a while, maybe not overnight. I mean, it's still got to like four or five times over the years. Do you do handicapped? No, I would not. I mean, I just wonder. I just, I'm just wondering what kind of access we're talking about. But, but like, you could, I could pull up in, right, when a truck parking thing and go inside and shop for two hours and come back out of my car was still there. Would you like go to the village during the Halloween parade, even if you didn't have a bill that said you hadn't addressed there? I could park off the route somewhere, like, but you might get busted and then you want to go and do this, like, it was sort of like a fake court and you would go, like, one time I was walking with Giuliani down Broadway, I dumped my car and he was doing a walk down, down Broadway. And I got a ticket and I went and argued as a, here's Giuliani, here's photos of who we were.

4:04And they were like, well, it wasn't like, like, pre-announced press event, but I, you know, so I had to go argue in and I got away with it. What fake court is this? Some kind of traffic court? I remember where it was. It was inside court, but it was like specifically for this. Like, you send in these forms that were signed, it was like a whole thing. I got very good at it after a while. As someone who paper sign off on it and say, yes, you were covering news at that moment and stuff like that. I never had a car in New York. No, this is, yeah, no, I actually feel like it would be, um, at many times inconvenient to have a car, like a burden to have to find parking. I literally lived in two places. The whole time I was in New York, both of which were then two blocks of NYP parking zones. Just, it was part of what I looked for. Did you, did you have a press card? Is that a real thing? Yeah, I had a press card. I had a, for many, many, many years I had a press card, probably for 13 or 15 years or some add a press card. What, what do you keep in your wallet? Because no, it's bigger than that. It's like this bigger, just the way around. Oh, okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. But I had this, like, I bought a truck from the, from the veteran Aryan who was carrying

5:06from my new dog that I had gotten the truck. I guess I remember hearing about baguettes of Beechley, right? Beechley. One of my stories later is going to involve the Beechley. Okay. Um, I was obsessed with my dog and I didn't have a car at the time and the vet was a big hunter guy and he was like, this dog needs to be out in the woods and all that. And I was like, I'm trying to find a car for him. He's like, well, I'm going to buy this old piece of shit that someone, he's like, what are you going to pay for it? I was like, I don't know, $4,000. He's like, well, I'll sell you my truck for $4,000. So I got this 1994 Explorer Sport Edition teal, do you ever ugly it was? I remember the car now. I didn't know that was your car. That's my car. Okay. So that was part of that on this assignment. They were like, you're driving me to New Hampshire. I probably picked you up. Oh, sorry. Yeah. No, it's totally okay. Yes. I want everyone to know this is your first podcast, right? This is my first podcast. Very honored to be your maiden guesting experience. Okay. So they said, so you had been shooting for 17? Yes. I was already doing this kind of work for them, but I think it probably also helped that

6:07I already had a car. So I remember that it was like, you're getting paired up with this other young woman. And we were going to go up there and try and blend in with these youths. Two Jews. Not offend them. I mean, I'm not even, but my last name is Blitz. Okay. It was obviously very, we would joke about that. I remember when the fog came in, we're like, here we are. Two Jewish lasso in the mountains of New Hampshire with the fog rolls. And this is like a horror movie. We're doing, you know, with a bunch of very religious people all around us. And I had visions of like, you know, the hills have eyes or you know, the whole vibe of stuff. It was. Yes. I remember when we got there, I don't know. I think we like, maybe we were looking for food or something. We went to some bar that was near the festival. It was like, we had just arrived. Okay. And I don't think we had checked in yet. But I remember sitting, I think you were saying all of this when we were sitting there. We were just like, that's probably putting it in your mind. Yeah. And what is going to happen to us when there was no cell phone reception? Do you remember that? Yes. As soon as you got to the entrance of the campground or whatever it was on, there was basically no cell phone reception.

7:07So I had to like tell people like, hi, here's vaguely where there was a drop of pin back there with none of that. Yeah. And we were basically like going into the abyss together. Right. No idea what to expect. Yes. And so we all stayed at like some, I don't know, not high it, like a holiday in or something like that. I remember they asked, what was the name of the woman? The, whoever I was, I know that Laura Morgan was the one who assigned the story to me. But then her assistant, or maybe she was like an AE or something, was coordinating the actual details on it. She's like, is there a hotel you want to stay out there? And I'm like, I do not know of any hotels in New Hampshire. The funny thing though is that we did this. And then a few months later, I was invited to my friend's wedding in New Hampshire. So I was like, I'm a regular. I'm becoming a regular. I didn't realize that the grounds we were on are actually like a really popular park or resort or something. I really mountain. Yeah. In Lincoln. It's a ski resort. Okay.

8:08That's, yeah. That sounds right. I don't think I knew that when we were there. I feel like I thought we were literally in like deliverance like middle of the world. Right. Yeah. I felt very remote. Very pretty. Like a nice way of, but very remote. We were like, we were like city's flickers too. Yeah. We were like, single gal. Yeah. Going up the highway in my truck, you know, to go get trouble. Right. It's very like, yeah, this is definitely horror movie material. If either one of us was a virgin, we would have been gone. Sure. You know, we would have fit in. One of us would have fit in. They wouldn't have believed us. I know. Well, there were some people I interviewed who I don't believe. Good point. But they made, you know what, it's so many years later, it is, this was in 2002, right? That's, I looked it up. Yeah, I think that's the way that. I think it was 2002. So I'm not going to feel bad about a little bit, you know, poking fun. But what I remember, and I interviewed a lot of teens, a lot of performers and a lot of teens who are there with their youth groups. And what I kept hearing is this thing of like, yes, XYZ is a sin.

9:13Yes, homosexuality is a sin. However, so is Jay walking. So they had this interesting way of kind of rash or like flattening all the quote unquote sins into like, and yeah, and also like, that's God's business. Like yes, like, like, I'm not judging you. Like, I feel, yeah, I feel like that's what they were saying that like, yes, homosexuality is not okay, but it's not really ours to judge. That's interesting. I came with some interesting things from that, which was one of them was that it was relentlessly positive, you know, it was really like a warm fuzzy vibes. There was zero diversity. I will say that. And we were the diversity. I did think one of the things that was interesting was that to me, it seemed like they, they being like the organizers, the group, the, the, whatever the body is that, oh, remember, everyone kept saying they were non-denominational and we didn't know what that meant. Yes, they were all evangelical and they were saved.

10:14Yes, but that, but they called it non-denominational, which I had grown up thinking meant. We tried this church. We tried that church. We're open minded. No, that's not what it meant. Something very different in that world. I came away with it thinking that it was a very deliberate and very savvy marketing plan where you basically take all of those hormones, all of those like teenage feelings and you play, you have good looking boys and girls playing music that sounds like what's on the radio. It sounds just like that, right? Like some of it was literally like, like, and also there was creed that was like, the Cuckoo tell the difference. Right. It was all these like sort of cute, nice, slightly, like there'd be like the bad boy, there's a little bit bad, yeah, a little bit edgy. But the lyrics where he's, they're singing about how good it feels like they could be singing about sex, but they're singing about spirituality. Yes, and specifically Jesus. Yes. And so it was actually brilliant because you get, of course, these like 15 year old repressed girls are going to be like screaming and yelling and feeling the music move them and you can just say, that's not sex feel, that's, that's a God. Yes.

11:15That's Jesus moving you. Exactly. And so the whole thing becomes about like taking all these like, you know, the, the strife and the difficulty of teenagerhood and the joy and the energy and the crazy vibes and make it all Jesus. You know, it's really good marketing. Yeah. Jesus has a good marketing time. Well, I was trying to remember why did they decide they wanted to do this story. And so then you very kindly sent me a PDF of it. I have it somewhere. I actually have some issues of the magazine. Yeah, I have. Telly Osborne was on the cover. But recently, we recently decided to go for the money pit that is a storage space. And so the magazines are in the storage space. But I was scanning the PDF you sent. I guess that year there were only two genres of music that turned a profit and it was country and Christian. So was that the hook? That's why we're going to the hook. Yeah. We met someone who went on to be a household name. We met a young Katie Perry at the time named Katie Hudson. That's right because she was not breaking out yet.

12:16And I guess Kate Hudson was a family name. Yeah. That was her. But yeah, she had been signed. Like, I guess maybe she released albums as Katie Hudson. Like on a Christian label. No, she was signed to, I just read that was on island, deaf jam. Maybe she broke out with later. I didn't. Maybe she never released stuff as Katie. Well, no, she was, well, she was a performing there. What she or what she was. She was. Okay. And we were, we talked to her. Someone set us up with who we were going to talk to. They chose her. We met this like, do I, to Bambi phase, arrested a person. Was a horrible girl. My assistant, do you remember? He was like in love with her. We were like, I was like, really that girl. And he was just like, God, God for her. He just found her incredibly adorable and charming. She really had that. She was, she was so good at talking to everyone. She was awesome. She was sweet and cute. She was not like this. She was like 17. Right. She is now. She was like this.

13:16She was a girl, you know, very real and really funny photos of her, which you can share with your ideas. Yes. Which I'm not sure she'd be thrilled about, but she was precious, honestly. And she was, she was convincing of like how this is all wholesome and fun and that she's totally down for the, the sweetness and purity of an all that. Literally what two years later, I kissed a girl. Okay, man. No. Okay, so we talked about that whole night. My sis, it was in love with her. That's why I remembered her. Then I ran into her not long later, like literally less than five years later. The first time I ever went to Coachella and she was there maybe with like Travis Perker is impossible. Make sure. And she was like, I'm recording and I was like, what are you doing here, Christian? Did she remember? She did. And I was like, what are you doing here with this like tattooed dude, just like I'm recording an album. I'm like living back in, I was like, oh, so anymore. And she was like, don't tell anyone. I'm still down with JC. That's what she said to me in the field of coach, but she whispered it. She whispered it. I was like, don't tell anyone. Don't tell anyone but I'm still down with JC. Yes, so interesting.

14:17She's still down with JC. Yes. And then that was before her song, you met and then like I ran into her one other time she was working as like one of the morally girls on the floor of a fashion trade show that I was covering in Vegas. And she was there and I was like, oh my god, I keep running into you. And then the next time I saw her, she was already a young superstar. And she was on stage at the Grove when they used to have those after concerts at the Grove. And there was a line of people all the way like miles away. So that's my whole Katy Perry trajectory. I feel like I also ran into her, but not when she was yet Katy Perry. Okay. It was shortly after the story, one of the bands, because I was like trying to interview all the bands for the story. And one of them was playing, I think at the knitting factory. And I think it, I suspected that she was dating one of the musicians in one of the bands. I think she, what, did she say she was? Maybe she, I couldn't rate it. I didn't see it in the article. So then I'm like, oh, maybe that wasn't public. Oh, that's not to say anything at the time. Yeah, I can't remember. But I, she was 17 I think. I think it was reliant K maybe.

15:20But I'm not 100% sure. But let's say it was, yeah, let's say something happened so long. But let's say it was reliant K and I went to see them. And then all of a sudden this girl like bounced over to me and was like, oh my god, you know, it acting like she was like my best friend. And it honestly made me feel so good. She's so, you can see there, I feel like there's certain stars where you're like, oh, I, in addition to their talent, I understand why they rocketed to fame. That's right. They're really good at making people feel like they're the only person in the room or like that you really matter. Like there aren't a lot of celebrities. So friendly. So friendly. So my whole career of photographing celebrities in one way or another. And like I can count on my hands the number of ones who remember me and say hi and like, it's not who you would think either. It's like some really random. You're like, oh, that's interesting. Not like on the story. I'm not. But just like when someone connects with you as a human, you're like, oh, you're good. Like, yes. You're really good at that. Yes. Still content was very good at that. I have always suspected I would have a crush on him if I met him. I have terrible to, I mean, my husband is wonderful.

16:22I have oh, prior to him. That day's a man. Oh my god. And so I just know your choices were in New York and LA. There are no. I imported mine from the Midwest. I need to hear the story of how you met your husband by the way. Yeah, but no, I've just always did. Did you feel like you had a crush on Bill Clinton? Or could you see why people do? I felt like the power, you know, he wasn't. I mean, I would photograph him and her. And I was not the kind of person to flirt with a man whose wife was sitting right there. Right. You know, I did work at the White House at the same time that Ms. Linsky did, which is very interesting. You did what were you doing there? I was photographing. I was in the pool. It was my summer job in between freshman and sophomore year of college. I got a job. Where did you go? I was from DC and I went to Michigan. Okay. And I went back to DC that summer and I got a job as a press photographer for like a pool photographer with a United Press International. And so I would do like weekend White House coverage because nobody else wanted to do it. So we'd go golfing with the president and stuff like that. Did you see, you said you were there at the same time that Linsky was.

17:24Did you see anything that made you wonder? I never, I probably wouldn't have noticed her. We were very different types of people at the time. And I, you know, I worked at the White House right next to the press room, but I have no recollection of her at all. Okay. Done. What was Hillary Clinton like? She, I mean, steely, you know, like perfectly on at all times like brilliant. You know, I, I didn't go into her office or anything. I would go to the Oval Office and shoot him while he was doing something or other, you know, with other photographers at all times. I'm just going to put it on the record. I've never alone with her. Right. And like a pap smear, there's always someone in the room. Oh, there's both eyes to you and the side to you. Yes. I did not have a pap smear in the White House. That's not, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying there was always someone else present. Always. Yeah. So I didn't have a ton of interaction with her. And I had, you know, with him was always limited. But I remember just thinking he was that person that like, you know, he would say, hi, do you shake your hand like you were the only person in the room. And you're like, oh, I see. I used to be good. You know, you've got that thing.

18:25I've always heard Tom Cruise has that thing as well. Have you photographed him? I have. If I photographed him once at the espus, his laser beam was completely focused on Venus Williams. He was standing next to me and he came up to her and he was doing this whole like this whole like humble like, oh my god, I'm such a fan. He's looking way up at her. And he, I think it was a serenity. No, I was a serenity not Venus. And she was looking at him like, who is this type of dude that's like all over me. It was like a small puppy, he's parking at a beautiful, brilliant goddess of a dog, like a half-cam bull hound or something. Yeah. And he was just like totally focused on her. You guys, I didn't feel the tractor pull. Interesting. Okay. And you know who else I remember one of the, one of the first people I was like, oh, wow, you're good. Is a Gerry O'Connell. Have you met him? God, maybe years ago. Yeah. Like in the early Rebecca Irving's day and most days and whatever. I don't remember. Just remember I was charming like that. Yeah, just very friendly and charming and treats everyone the same.

19:26I've actually, I actually later had him on my show, but this was when I just started on the Adam Crowler show. And I think Rebecca was gassing on an episode that was recording before I was supposed to do the news on the show. So there were just sort of people milling about and he just came up and put his hand out. Hi, I'm Gerry and just very friendly and also had him like a really good jeans that looked brand new. It's like, I think you could start about a celebrity based on how they treat not the key part. Yes. Like everyone's going to kiss Adam's ass. It's cool that he went out of his way to say hi to you. To be nice to me. Yes. People are always talking to the reporter, not everyone even acknowledges the photographer. You know, it's nice to see those that are your human. I'm a human. It makes better photos tip out there if you're being photographed, be nice to the photographer. I have deliberately made someone who was a horrible human being look bad and print. It was great. Oh my God. Will you tell me off my who it is? Thank you. Thank you very much. A horrible, wretched troll of a person who's a woman or a man.

20:26A woman who was referred to me as it in public. Oh my God. I dared to speak to her. Oh my God. I can't wait to find out who it is. And then I was assigned to photograph her and I found a photograph that enhanced her most prominent troll of the previous features. Oh my God. I put it in the newspaper. Yes. Oh my God. Oh my God. I found out. Will you just write it? No, you know what? No, you just tell me after all. I can delay this gratification. It's a good thing. Okay. So as someone who worked for newspapers and I'm not talking about myself, I'm also talking about you, but both newspapers and magazines, oftentimes I would be assigned to interview someone and the occasion for the interview would be while they're also being shot for the magazine. Okay. So they've rented out this space and go there and they'll do a photo shoot and then they'll also have an hour for the interview or whatever. And let's say it was, this is celebrity journalism I'm talking about.

21:27And so there would be some question that I have that I am nervous about asking, like maybe people are suspecting this person's pregnant or they're suspecting. Oh my God. You like that? You like that? You like that? You're suspecting this person is dating someone or just whatever it is. I know that it's like my near the end question because I want to, yeah, because I want to, you know, I'm like not, I'm not a bark my most intrusive question at the beginning person. There are reporters who do think, I remember a reporter explaining, like in print, that their thing is you ask it right away because if the person hangs up on you, then you have a great story. And I was always like, then you have no story. Very gotcha, journalism. Yes. That's a very different kind of. Very different than me. I mean, celebrity interviews are not usually that. I mean, there's quite a bit of puffery involved. And then you try and get some real pointed questions in there somewhere. I always did. I feel like nowadays it's even more puffery, but that's a topic for another day.

22:29At the journalism as we know. Yes. A whole podcast. Yes. Anyway, I, and I always was like, I had a full, it was like a chess match in my mind, you know, but I didn't want that. I wanted, but they're, they're just supposed to feel warmth from me. And then they're supposed to like just gently open up, you know, it makes me some kind of a conniving asshole. And I really am not. I'm not. Like I never wanted someone to say something that would hurt them or anything like that. Well, you want to get, you want to get a piece of real something. Something real. Yeah. Yeah. I was written by the publicist and memorized by them. Exactly. You know, nobody cares about that. But what would often happen was I would have my question. And then while I was just sitting there observing the photoshoot, they would be chatting with the photographer and the photographer would just blurt it out. And I'm like, oh my god, like I am doing all this warm up and prep to try to get this answer out of them. And you got, you're just like, chummy with them right away and just talking like regular human beings.

23:30That's interesting. It's interesting to hear you say that they are usually cozying up to the reporter more than you in or of like a new situation. I mean, if they're being photographed, they're sitting for a portrait and they're smart. They're nice. Yeah. I mean, what kind of idiot would be the photographer before the shoot? Right. But I did do a shoot. Like I did a shoot with Donald Trump once for a cover of a magazine in Texas. This was a long time ago, right? A year ago, like a hundred years ago. And we went to his office and we set up and we were supposed to have like five, maybe ten minutes at the end of the interview, sat through the entire interview, which was really dry. And if I were there, it would have been so riveting. But the journalist was a man. And at the end of the interview, he, they were like, oh, now ten minutes and he turns to me. The first time he spoke to me and only time he goes, hurry it up, there's sweetheart, I haven't got all day. Oh my god. He gave me less than a minute. Oh my god. That's the only words he spoke to me or the other female in the room. He just had no use for us whatsoever. And then like the whole stick that they wanted their editor wanted him to be like taking a bite of an apple and like so the headline could be like, don't jump takes a bite of

24:33the big apple. Oh god. This is back when he was still in his germaphobes. So he wouldn't touch the apple. Oh, I didn't know he went through how he mandal phase. The entire, I was like, how is this guy going to run for president? He won't shake hands. Yeah. That's the whole thing. And he was like, really pissed off that I'm going to touch this apple that I had. He's like, where did it come from? And I was like, my butt hole. Yeah. Believe me, I wasn't rubbing it against myself before I gave it to you. So he did not want to touch the apple. I think we had to go wash it. I don't remember exactly what happened. He did hold the apple. He absolutely would not put it anywhere near his mouth and I did get the cover photo. And what was this for? It was a magazine in Texas, but I can't. It wasn't Texas monthly, but it was something like that. It wasn't a regular magazine. I contributed to it. They hired me to shoot a cover. I shot the cover. Well, I have a memory. I have a memory of a few things that we discussed on our way to Hampshire. And one of them, Donald Trump came up. And I don't know why though, because this was 2002. So he was far away from politics. I think he was a very good man running around New York, trying to hit on all the pretty girls. But I think you said he knows his hair looks ridiculous.

25:34It's apricot. He knows it looks ridiculous, but it's his thing. Does that sound like something you would have said? I mean, that sounds smart. So I can't take credit for it. But that's, oh, sorry. That's really funny. I don't understand that. Because for the longest time, his hair was just a joke. I mean, I'll take that one, sure. I said that. I think you did. And now I'm doubting it. But I would say. I feel like I know for sure you said it's apricot. And I think you said, because the question is, how is this guy walking around with hair that looks like that? Everyone was saying that. And I think you're like, he knows, but it's get people talking. And then also, I remember, you were doing keto. Oh, my God. I've been waiting for everyone else was, yes. I've been there for a long time. But you were doing what people nowadays would call dirty keto. What's right? So I remember, I think you would eat a strawberry with ready whip. Does that sound like something you would have done?

26:36No. Really, I would come home, wasted at night, and go to the deli, and get a piece of salami and a piece of cheese, because I couldn't have a carb. And I would black out, because there were no carbs in my body, and it would shit ton of white wine. That sounds like me. Okay. I think. So, dirty keto is like, you let yourself have anything that is as long as it's not carbs. Versus, I don't know what clean keto would be. Oh, even like fruit is cut out of like the real, real keto. I mean, did you have fruit? Once in a while, I guess that they're engorched. Right. Because it's very sugary and not supposed to. Do you still do keto? No. Definitely not. Okay. I'm doing intermittent fasting though. I'm always doing it. So you're still doing something? No, I mean, there were many, there were 20 years in between. But yes, you're back. And several babies and things like that. And I work out like a beast. But yeah, I mean, that's funny. Yes, I do remember that I was doing keto. I was like an Atkins girl, and I didn't care that he'd supposedly died of an explosive heart attack. Oh, maybe it was Atkins who were doing, yeah. I was in Cachosis. Right.

27:37Yes. Yeah, I had Atkins books as well. And I was like, I feel like he doesn't get enough credit. He really started the whole keto thing. Where the hell did we eat on that trip? Because I couldn't have been like a lot of this bar. I know. I don't remember. I don't remember eating. I don't also remember the other big memory I have is when we came in the next morning, and there were a bunch of girls together bathing in the stream. I remember that too. And it was very idyllic and beautiful. And I was like, and we're like, what do you think they're talking about? They were probably talking about total handmade and kind of stuff. Who's a better Jesus follower? Right. It looked very beautiful. It was like in these New Hampshire mountains and the girls were all like, what are they hanging their clothes up to dry? They were communally living and talking about it. I think they were all like, what's on it wasn't the tent? They told us all about like, what's on the tent the night before. And yeah, there it was. And they were, you know, everyone was convincing about like how loving in Sweden was, but then remember the abortion is mean to you sure? Yes. So there was this like, like sort of kiosky bazaar or not bi but bi a z a our area where

28:38you could go in it. Like at Coach, well, I only went to the first coach at another festival. I'd be like, where you can go by earrings and t-shirts. Yes, feathers in your hair. Yes. This was it was anti-abortion. One of the booths was anti-borschen. One more than one. Yes. My memories that the whole thing was anti-borschen, but I don't. Yeah. And then remember there would be like, there was a girl who was talking rock for life, I think about like how, you know, she, she loves her gay friend, but she praised for his soul and she's so sad he's going to burn an eternal hellfire. And we were like, that's not really loving your family. Yeah. It's just, there was a lot of that and then there was the little kid running around the abortion as mean to you. Yes. Which I had forgotten about till I saw your photo. I will post the articles so people can look at it. You did a good job like synthesizing it and not just walking in the article like you could. I knew I couldn't. Yeah. And we were just quietly being dicks on the side. I mean, I have a total appreciation for other cultures I made living out of doing a culture

29:39column for the times where I find like interesting groups of people that don't associate. It's not about me who cares what my beliefs are. This was just like a particularly strongly felt group of people with very different opinions on lots of things and it was it was really, it was a great assignment as far as they go, you know. I remember we went, we went to various worship services while we were there. And I remember all of a sudden seeing you crouch down and point your camera somewhere and I kind of followed like, oh, what did you catch? And there was a little girl or a little boy, but I think it was a little girl who was like doing something or other during the service. And I hadn't noticed it. And I was very impressed with your photo journalist, I because it was like an amazing, it was, I could tell it was going to be an amazing shot, you know. I don't know what it was. I would love to know it. You probably have it in like, yeah. A shot that on Chrome, which is like, what is that? That is slides, slides film.

30:40So it's very, very beautiful. It's, of course, there's no preview. It's not like now where you think if you got the shot, it's very expensive so you didn't overshoot. So the, and it's very finicky. It's easy to ruin. It's easy to over process, or under process and it's harder to fix it. So all those things together, I'm sure I was probably a little bit stressed, like you don't know what you're getting. Right. But you also can't just overshoot because it's super expensive. Now was that a decision you made or would the magazine have said we recommend Chrome? The magazine would have been like, we want you to shoot Chrome. Yeah. I shot at that time. I shot all film, but the film is a negative or positive. The newspaper stuff was all negative. Most of the stuff I shot for magazines was crumbs at that point. And you would drop it off at the lab and you would never see it again until it ran on the paper. Oh, wow. Oh, so they would pick it up. Yes. You don't even know if like got good stuff. No. I got in big trouble once for something that ran that I shot for Madam Waselle. What was it? We were invited to Nikki Hilton's 16th birthday party to cover it for the magazine. And I shot a bunch of stuff, including they wheeled out a giant cake for her to blow out

31:41the candles. I shot all of that, dropped off the film. Magazine came out and they ran that photo and her dress was loose and you can see her breasts. And she was a 16 year old girl. Granted, I had no idea. Right. You know, Rick Hilton called me at home. He found my home phone number. Oh, my God. I was in a home and called me a pervert and friend to sue me. And was like, you'll be hearing from my lawyers. And I was like, what are you trying to see? I mean, she shit like that happened, not like Rick Hilton level, but she like that happened to me as well, where it's like, you're calling the wrong person. I am the peon in all of this. Call the magazine if you're upset. I didn't make that call. And we were invited to be there. It wasn't like us. I didn't see that. Yeah. We were invited to be there to put about this event and do it as a fashion and sort of retouch. We're just saying that Madamose all ran that though and didn't like blur any. It was just pre blur. Maybe they didn't realize it. Yeah. She didn't have the, you know, Katy Perry style breasts. Right. I mean, she was a smaller, chested girl. And it was like sort of just a mo, I mean, I could see why they might think it was a

32:46gotcha, but like I was a 20 something female photographer, photographing a 16 year old girl. Right. I wasn't there to try and catch a boob moment with a total nips of, I did not see. Yeah. I told, anyway, it was crazy. So they, yes, they, I think I basically said, call me and they, they called me out and they threatened to sue me and all this kind of stuff. And I had to call my editor and be like, yeah, what did they do? I don't remember. I went away eventually, but it was a little scary, you know, very powerful person. I'm in my 200 square foot apartment on 26th Street. Like, I think you left a message on my voicemail or tape thing. Oh, God. Yeah. And I was just like, what is happening? Yeah. Wait, did you live on, on 26th Street on the West Side or East Side? East Side. Okay. I was in New York. I was in a sublet in Chelsea. So I was on 22nd, between 7th and 8th, which would have been probably where you picked me up from that morning. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I went away from there. Yeah. Did you have a pet at that point? No, I didn't ever have a pet when I was in New York, although when I, so I lived, I lived in Chelsea and then I lived in Murray Hill and then I lived in the village and then I lived in Murray Hill. Really?

33:47Yeah, where were you? 39th between 1st and 2nd. Okay. I was actually more like Curry Hill as they say, which is terrible. The 30th call, that 26th between like the third, right around the corner. I really couldn't. I like that area. Well, now it's really bumping. Now the freehand hotel is over there. Okay. And there's like the friends experience and all this crazy stuff over there. Yeah. It was just me and Baruch College and some streetwalkers at the time. When I moved, when we moved to Murray Hill, a story came out in the observer that said, like, the timing was like ideal. And it was not ideal. It said, welcome to Murray Hill. And it was just about how it's all like finance, finance, bros and stuff like that. Which it was. I didn't love the culture of Murray Hill, but we had a nice, big, ish apartment, air conditioning, dormant. They held packages for us. We were near a gristetease, I think, near, near enough to a gym, not really close to this subway. But anyway, okay. So then I lived in Carol Gardens at the very end, which I loved. Wearing Carol Gardens, I was on 2nd place between Court and Clinton.

34:47Okay. So by the time, when we did this story, we did this story in 2002. I had just moved to Brooklyn. Yes. Where did you move? A place at 27. By myself, I'm going to put that out there. Congratulations. It was very tiny, but I bought a place in Brooklyn. Nice. I loved Brooklyn Heights. I ended up living in that place, like an old person for 14 years. I thought I was going to die with my facial eating my face. You know, I was like that person. I was living in this tiny apartment. And I was there way before. It was really stodgy. It was clean and pretty. Which streets were at the corner of Remson and Hicks? It was there for years. We still go back and visit our neighbors and stuff. I still go visit my old apartment and look through the people. Brooklyn Heights is where I wanted to move when I decided to move to Brooklyn. And I tried to find a place there. And then I found this place in. Carol Gardens and filmed up with it. But Brooklyn Heights, for people who don't know, it's so cute. Well, it's basically amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. The Historical Society sort of they were like, they took, when Jacob Reese and then wanted to build the highway going through that neighborhood. It was a bunch of lawyers and judges and important people with this was like their second home.

35:47And they got together and said, we don't want this highway to go through our neighborhood. And that was like one of the first, I think that might have been the first historic or something like that. There was some strut and there's like a library that's dedicated to it and all this stuff. So that was a great neighborhood. It was very not cool, but just charming and you're off the water. And as I mentioned, they were press plate parking by the Bore House two blocks away. So that's very smart to buy a place. What made you know that's the staff you should take? I think I knew that I wouldn't be there for 30 years. so I didn't even have to worry about like a 30-year loan or anything. I did like a, there was funnily enough that was a guy in my voiceover class. I briefly took voiceover classes for fun, who was a mortgage broker. And I think maybe he sort of put it in my head that like it was smarter to do that. And then I think he did the math for me and pointed out that I could have my own one bedroom apartment with a dormant and a roof deck and be off the water. And my mortgage and maintenance together were less than that would be in rent by far.

36:49Right. It's just you never do the down payment, which is 20% in New York. Yeah. Almost always, oh, it's Amp has the co-op board, which is a bunch of mean old people. One of whom told me, why don't you just get your dad the bike apartment for you? Oh. He got it by car later. Yeah, like I remember just realizing that like renting that place would be twice as much. And you know, building equity and I don't know, I just, I was, I want to roots in New York, I want to feel like I belong here, you know. So you grew up in Cairo, right? For four years only. Okay. Yes. The first. And why were you there? My dad was a foreign correspondent. Okay. Okay. So you come from a press family. I do. Yes. Very funny that I ended up what I'm doing because it's very different. Like I always was like a storyteller and I wrote stories, but all more. And like the fiction, just you know, John, run my parents were like journalists. Like very facts and any of the stories that are just stories are just stories. Would your mom also a journalist? Yes. My mom was an editor at the Voice of America. Oh, okay. Very cool. I think 30 years. So yeah, like they didn't really consider what I was doing journalism.

37:54And but I will say has a freelancer, you know, you can be 45 of your freelancers and your parents still think you're unemployed. But then I finally got a, I, Ruth LaFera and I built the column in the New York Times. South section life is a runway. And once I was a columnist for the time, they's not telling people that I was unemployed. I started telling people that I worked for the New York Times. So that was, even though I wasn't on staff. Right. But still. Some antics of it, it made them feel better. I remember seeing that that column and being like, oh my god, that's the photographer that I went on that crazy 17 trip with. That trip would have been a good subject for me. Yeah. It was all like about sort of cultural repartage of like, what is this either event or place or thing and what brings these people together and how to express themselves or totally. And you wrote it as well, right? With LaFera LaFera. Okay. She was my, she was a staff writer for the Times for many, many, many years. And she and I just got along really well. We were talking one day over avocado toast at that place in the East Village. And we're talking about how the Times' coverage wasn't really reflecting what was happening

38:54and fashion. They didn't have any street coverage. It was all very sort of pretty talk. Pretty talk. A little bit. Yeah. And they didn't, they weren't necessarily at that point encouraged to get out into the streets and some of them, she and I and Guy Trebe and I had also done several stories about like what was coming from the streets and what was coming from the people. Like a little bit more of that. And this is before like the streets were a huge thing. And you know, so they had like Bill Cunningham had his thing that he did but it wasn't necessarily themed. I was like based on like the event. It was more high society. And this was like, we went to them and we said we think that we could be, you know, bringing in a younger audience and like a, a hip or like a downtown audience and all that stuff. And we pitched it to them as, you know, cultural repartage with a camera from me and words from her and then I just started like finding crazy stuff to cover. You know, what are some of the things you covered? We would do like a midnight poetry slam on the Lower East Side. We did one, oh my God, there was one that was an all night casting at MTV. Oh wow. It was like people bring, what's your talent? Come to MTV and pitch it to us.

39:55I mean, like what in shot, who are those people? We did Prince Harry's Polo on the Governor's Island. We're one of the first like teams to cover that. We did, I would do our buzz. Oh, I would do Fashion Week. We would find trends at Fashion Week. I think I pitched them Coachella as the first one of these and they passed on it. So I sold the photos to women's red daily and they were mad that I gave them the photos and then they greenlit my column after that. Oh really? Yes, because I think they realized that they had missed an opportunity. Wait, they were mad that you sold the photos, were you, did they, were they trying to be exclusive with you or something? They didn't pay for the trip. I was convinced I offered them a whole story. Were you like, when they said there's no there, there, that's the quote. And I was like, okay, so I gave the pictures to them. Yeah. I was traveling with a friend who was a writer at the time and so she pitched words to them and with my photos and we had the cover of women's red daily and a two page spread inside. And my time's editor was like, why are they getting, why didn't we get this? And I was like, I offered you this, which I can't get you this. And then they were like, okay, we're greenlighting your column. So that was awesome. Yeah, little competition. How did you, how did you know what the, what, like, how were you so plugged in?

41:02I have to give credit where credit is due. I read a lot of New York magazine and I'm in the village voice and I would read some, I didn't really do blogs or anything at that stage, although they did exist. But usually I would go down a rabbit hole from like something I read in the post or New York magazine or like some of the entertainment things. It was more just like a tiny mention and be like, oh, like something like a hot dog eating hot like something. Why do we do this? Show us up to this. Yeah. And sometimes it was thin, but it was really more just I saw it more as like studying culture through how people present themselves in this way. You know, we, and we would find something different to like even fashion week. We did one where it was like everyone's wearing some version of armor. Like what are they hiding? So we did the armor and I did a thing at our Basel and I remember finding a woman who was wearing a living python as a necklace around her neck. Yeah, just a bag to be. Yeah. So does want to talk to that person and be like, what's your story? Yeah. I'm just saying. I felt like it was, I mean, I was much younger at the time. So I felt like I was sort of bringing a youthful perspective to the times of fashion

42:04coverage. And Ruth has the soul of a 25 year old. Like she's awesome and curious about people and things and stuff like that. And it was, it was, I was great. I'd just say it was one of my favorite things I've ever done. You know, my parents happy. It was also just, it was like a platform. You know, I never really saw myself as someone with a platform and it wasn't about what I wanted to say, but I was giving people space to share something about themselves. I loved working in more than one image. I loved working in like multiple images. Wow. Yeah. And that became the impetus for my movement directing as well. I realized I was really frustrated with the single image. And I can, even now I can almost never edit myself to a single image. I'm always like, what could be these two or three? A trip ticket. Yeah. I'm not good at editing things down to one image. So I can relate to that. It's being kind of indecisive and, but just feeling like there's just three words can say it better than that one word. There's so many avenues I want to go down to ask you, but let's just sort of, let's go back to like the chronology.

43:05Okay. So four years in Cairo, four and corresponding parents, father, and then where'd you go? Then we went to, my dad took a year off to write a book and do a fellowship with the Council of Formulations. So we lived in Brooklyn, weirdly enough for a year. We lived in Carol Gardens. Oh. 181 DeGroast Street, which I went and looked up and found the family that lives there now. It's now like a $4 million townhouse. At the time, we were like, look at this tidy place. We have to live it. And I'd never been through a winter before. So we had to go to like Burlington Co-Factory and we didn't have any. And I went to PS29 for kindergarten. And then where'd you go? And then back to DC, which is where they had a house. And I was born there, but we moved from there when I was very young. And then DC through elementary and high school and stuff like that. And then what was your first career aspiration? Is it photography? No, I want to be writer. I wrote all the time. I took all the creative writing classes and poetry classes and all that teaming stuff, everything. I loved photography early, mostly in the sense that I had a subscription to Rolling Stone. And I would like, oh, well, the pictures of Bono and all the early, her bridge stuff.

44:08And I was obsessed with that kind of stuff. And I think if anything, I would have wanted to be a music writer who could shoot. But like I wasn't even thinking in those terms. And then I got to college and the writing programs were really dominated by a couple of voices. And I was a little bit disillusioned with that. And I started working for the school paper. Like famous people voices. No, just in your program. In my program. And then just across the board, there was like one award that you could win. And like it was very much like getting on that academic ladder already. And I was like, I just didn't see myself living as like a professor in Iowa teaching other kids. Right. Didn't see my career life. Did you already know how to shoot at that point? I had taken one photo class. OK. So then I broke up with a boy who lived in my same dorm. And so I had like all my friends just were tied up with him. And I had no other friends. My first, I was very social all through high school. And college, I did not find my people. It was really tough. It's a huge school. Obviously, it's massive. And I joined the school paper.

45:10It's like I got an opportunity to be a photo intern. And the paper there is not funded by the school. So they get to break real stories. And they get to, they've broken stories about their coaches doing bad stuff. And their team is doing bad stuff. And I was there when the fact that we were there. And University of Michigan, right? I was there when the fact that we were there. And they were making national headlines. And at one point, like the Washington Post called and asked for the dark room. And they asked anyone who was there to go shoot Nike swooshes on the athletes clothing. They ran it in the Washington Post. And my editor was, I like, he's my mentor. And he was shooting professionally at that point for all the Detroit area newspapers. And he's associated press and I learned a ton. And then I went to Europe to do my internship in photography. And got a bunch of newspaper and magazine spreads and tear sheets there. Came back as a 19 year old with a bunch of stuff, including the cover of Hello Magazine. Oh, wow. Met with a bunch of people that was one editor and Bob Cantella at the New York Times who was from Michigan. And so he kind of like pulled my letter out and was like, okay, let me give this.

46:14I met with him and he said, call me when you get to New York. How old were you at that point? Twenty. Wow. I had to graduate. I was not given a choice. They were basically like, you go back and graduate now or we're not paying for it. So that's it. So I went back and graduate. What did you major in? English. Me too. And creative writing. Useless and more useless. And then unless you're going to law school. And then I basically drove out of there in April one school ended. And that summer also shooting for UPI in DC and traveling back and forth to New York to try and get established there in some way. My best friend was from Rhode Island. And then yeah, moved in September 1st to our meatpacking district apartment, which was still meatpacking for real. And started freelancing for the post and the times that first six months, you know. When you want to freelance for the post and the times, what do you send them to get on their radar? At the time I'm. I'm making myself so old. I sent them letters and with some tear sheet.

47:15No, that's what I did when I wanted to write for them. I would send them a letter with, you know, yeah, examples of things I've written before. So similar. And then I would ask for a meeting and then I would have a meeting I would go in there with my little book of prints, you know, like eight by ten black and white prints of things I had covered and and then a separate book of tear sheets of things I had published. I mean, I'd already been published quite a bit at that point for a kid. And then you hope someone takes an interest in you that isn't a pervert. And that's kind of the best you can do, you know. There was a couple of people at the post who, you know, gave me a chance and then they, they pretty quickly, like within that first year, they gave me a schedule, which meant that like, even if I didn't shoot anything, I got paid for those things. Oh, wow. It also meant that I could do eight assignments in a day and they would only pay me one day, right? But it seemed fair to me. Yeah. I was able to establish that I could pay my rent and a certain lifestyle and, you know, start to have something resembling some stability. So you only took one photography class in your whole life? Yeah, I guess. Yeah. So you're self-taught basically aside from that, right? I worked, I learned everything basically at the daily and then, and then, you know,

48:18from magazines and museums and stuff. Yes, but my mentor taught me a ton and then, yeah, it was kind of just like older kids, teaching younger kids at school and then when I learned at the paper and I was shooting football and basketball and stuff like that. And, you know, I would go to workshops and stuff like that, but I know like an actual course in photography now. And I only just, the one I took in high school. At what point did you, and now I'm asking you to brag about yourself a bit? At what point were you like, I have a skill for this. I have a talent. I think it was, I mean, even what I knew I was one of the better of the interns at the paper, but that wasn't saying very much. And then it was more just like perseverance. Like when I did my internship in the UK, I got the sense that I was doing a better job than anybody expected me to do. That was nice, you know. When I got the cover of Hello, I went out with two photographers that were staffers and they were out front of this event and I went out back and nobody had any expectations.

49:18They're like, just man the back in case. And I ended up being the only person who got the photo and I got the cover and it was like a big deal. And so I was like, okay. And then at this same time when I had been at school, my mentor had gone on to shoot real stuff and we would meet other photographers from the Detroit area. And I was like, I didn't realize if you had like a reputation and they had houses and families, some of them, the men only have families with women don't get to have families. And I was like, oh, like you can actually kind of, you can make a living doing this. This doesn't have to be just like a thing I do in college. I could maybe actually do this. And from then on, I was desperate to get done with school. I was totally done. I wanted to be out in the world. I would not cry on graduation day. I was like desperate to get out and be a grown up and do the thing, you know. And then I did, I moved to New York with $200 in my pocket and my parents really were not paying your rent. I think this is a terrible idea. What did they want you to do? I don't know. Just not what you did. Which is weird because my dad's in New York or he had really proud of me, but I don't know. They just thought it sounded like not well thought out or something. My mom was like, I'll pay your health insurance for one year.

50:19We're not paying your rent. We're not helping you like, sink or swim. And do you swim in that case? That's it. Yeah. Me and my best friend were both self-funded and we shared a bedroom with twin beds. Like Burton Ernie. Literally. Burton Ernie who were sexually active with strangers from bars. Okay. They see you make up in the morning and be like, who are you? We had a side in my back. And then the other two roommates were, you know, their parents were paying for their room and boards. So they had singles with their own bathrooms. We lived in a building that drew Barrymore and Ed Burns had apartments in. Oh wow. This is the real world. Like we were 21, you know, 22 living this crazy life. We were friends with the balancer of hogs and heifer. And you know, I started getting exposed to stuff that seemed pretty cool and access was cool. And you know, I never mismade the mistake of thinking that any of it was about me. I was never like, these people think I'm cool so they let me into their parties. It was very much like, I'm here representing the New York Times. So I have amazing access to fashion week designers and celebrities if that's your thing

51:22or whatever it is. But it was very much like, I was very respectful of the fact that like, it's me and the place I'm shooting for. I even had one publicist friend say to me once when I called him and said, I want to come cover your thing. He said to me, I'm sorry to be an asshole, but I have to ask you, are you coming as the poster? Are you coming as the times? And he wasn't going to give me access if I was coming as the post. Right. And I appreciated the honesty on it. You know, I was like, because then when I... What were you coming at? It was the times. Okay. I got in. And I was like, he was also great. It made a huge, very, very, like, when I was making my first movie, which was about zombies at fashion week, he let me put my model zombie girls on a real red carpet of an event he was having and let me shoot them like a total gonzo style fashion event. That's awesome. That's amazing. Yes. Brad Zyffman, I owe you one. Good guy. So when did you leave New York? And why? I left New York in 2015. 2015? What year is it? It's 2016. It's 2016. That's right. I have no idea. Everything else in 2010, I don't remember. So we had a second baby. We had moved out of Brooklyn Heights for the first time in my whole adult life to sort

52:27of like over my prat, a cute neighbor that I hadn't really discovered yet. Like your passport, green, but for green park was still like our weekend park and stuff. And we had gotten like what to me seemed like the ultimate. We had a loft that was two bedrooms and two bathrooms. We had a washer dryer. In your apartment, my apartment. That's the dream. There was a downstairs communal garden and we had a dormant. And I was like, this is it. It doesn't get better than this. Like, I don't know anyone who has anything bigger or better or nicer than this. Not a real person. Like famous people, yes. And rich people, I mean, I worked at Vogue. So I knew plenty of wealthy people. Right. You were, you know, got help or whatever. But like for real people, like that seemed like a pretty great deal. And things were going well. But we had a second baby and the second baby was a different gender than the first baby. And we were like, there's kind of a finite time period on how long we can do this. And I married a DP and he, but that's a cinematographer for anyone who doesn't know. It does not stand for double-penetration, despite what my friend Larry always tells me. It is a cinematographer. So and he, you know, thought that if we were in LA, like at that time, there was more like

53:32TV production and stuff like that was like the Golden Age of Television. And we were like, we could go out there and you could do steady stuff and then work up to D.P.ing and be an operator. And at the time, all my clients were like, oh my God, we would love to have you out there. We need someone with like East Coast Sensibility and East Coast Training and all this stuff. And it all seemed like it was going to be like walking the park and then none of that actually happened. It was incredibly difficult. I also came out here when my baby was like less than a year. So there was a moment around 2016 or something where I was finally done breastfeeding. I was finally like, where I literally had that moment of waking up and being like, how did I get here? Like I blew up my life. I live where? Yeah. We decided, I came out here for the Tom Ford show when I was living in New York in February or March. I rented a little tiny house. My baby's skin cleared up. You're like playing in a garden in February, March. And I was like, this is my home and I blizzarded that year into April. And I was just like, I don't know, it was sort of a fit of peak. It was sort of just like not well thought out. And I was like, fuck it, I'm done.

54:32And we packed up and we moved less than two months later. Wow. I packed up 15, 19 years of my life and moved to LA. Where did you first move when you came to LA? The same place I still lived. Okay. Which I joke is literally like moving to New York and moving to Times Square. We live in Hollywood. They're now calling it the Hollywood studio district, but it's basically sort of the East Ish side of Hollywood. And yeah, we found a house that was like twice the size of our loft for the exact same price. And we have a garden and I had the Viche, the Viche let that play. And we were just like different Viche let, but you know, same idea. And I was like, this is great. Look at the mansion. Yeah, for me, it's like that. Right. To floor house. It was just ours in LA. It was crazy. And the neighborhood was dodgy and all that. And now the Netflix building went up a block away. It's the neighborhood's getting a little bit nicer. I mean, I don't want to be on here to go and pro gentrification, but I'm glad there are fewer shootings and something that we're always first moved here. I did not mean to end up in this house, but then the kids ended up at a charter school in your mind. And then you feel like you can't leave really.

55:32Yeah. I mean, so weird. Like, where you live defines your identity here. Who your friends are. Where you hang out. Where you do where your kids go to school. Which where your kids go to school then completely helps identify like how, what the rest of your life is so weird. And like, you have friends at the beach. You'll never see them. If you have friends in like Santa Clarita, you'll never see them. It's so weird. Right. When we were looking for our house at the beginning, we were also our real tour was showing us places in Culver City. Right. And I often think had we moved to Culver City, we would be having an entirely different experience. It's a different life. It's like a different state. We thought we moved here as former Brooklynites. We sort of assumed that we would live in a downtown loft. Like a big loft. But there was, there was like no preschools such. I mean, literally you end up, I mean, my kids are now 15 and 12 and I'm like, oh my God, like I went into a black hole. I mean, it's a joyful, wonderful, amazing black hole kids. I'm not saying you're a black guy. You go into this thing, you start making decisions on something besides what's best for your career. Right. And that's hard. Like I spent 20 something years just being like, this is what I'm doing for my career,

56:36this one, my life is for myself. And then suddenly there's like all these other factors and they take over to a certain extent. I'm now that there's sort of much more self-sufficient and doing their own thing. I'm back to being like, it's not just like, you know, how did I get here? It's like, where do I want to go? What's next? What am I doing? Is this where I want to be? Is this an accident? What's the next step? It's very interesting. Have you figured it out? No, I do resent the fact that just because of the digits attached to my age, I'm there, there are things that are asking me for like retrospectives of my career. And I'm like, I am not there. Like, I do a show. I've had some stuff in a show, but it wasn't like my show. But you know, I'm working with a friend who's starting an image thing and he wants me to go through all my 97 because that's what's selling right now, which is fun. And it's nostalgic, but I'm like, this is not like a person at the, this I don't see myself as like an end of my career being like, well, that was a good ride. You know, I'm not ready to be put out to pass. Okay. It's interesting you say that because something that's come up with my show a couple times lately.

57:36I will talk to people who are my age or a year older and they, but they don't work in entertainment. Okay. And they will talk about, yeah, we want to retire there. And I'm like, I have a friend who is an entertainment who talks about feeling like maybe she wants to retire. And this notion of retiring to me is so far away, both because I don't feel ready to hang it up. I feel like, no, I'm still just getting started. Like there's so many things like, yeah. But so, so both like emotionally not ready to retire, but also financially in no way do I feel like I've set myself up to be close to retiring yet. But also we do things. I assume you're in the same boat that are part of us that we love. That's true. Working isn't just about making money. It's that, yeah, was a concept about you put in 30 years of shitty slogging. Right. And then you can play golf. Yes. I'm not interested in golf.

58:38That entire model doesn't work. Right. That makes sense. And if you ask me, like in my total fantasy dream world, right, don't have to worry about money or anything else, what would I be doing when I'm 65? I would be probably living in Paris, but I would still be shooting because I love it. Right. Like doing this, believe me, the vast majority of my jobs are barely paycheck worthy. And I will put it right on the record that my worst paying long term client was the New York Times. They paid almost nothing. You work for them because it's advertising for your work. You work for them because you love it. You work for them for the access. You work for them because there's no higher gold standard of journalism. If you care about those things, which I very much do, you know, and you know, because those things are those things to me at the time were worth more than like fighting for a higher day rate, you know, that wasn't going to happen. And so you'd like to take it or leave it, you know, that was their attitude. And I took it. So yeah. But I wrote for free at the beginning of my career. Yes. Yeah, because I needed the question. What I don't love is that like things are now so dire with photography that you're, I'm

59:39being asked to work for free now. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm, you know, because there's, you're like, I'm a thundered my career. There's Instagrammers that are doing it for free. Yeah. I know. You send them a purse and they send you shoot your whole camera on their iPhone. And I'm like, that's, that's not my game. So yeah. I'm old fashioned in that way. Yeah. I mean, my understanding is the rates per word are completely shitty now. Like worse than they were. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Or just like they're running less articles. I mean, it's all right. No, I mean, back in the day. Yeah. Okay. So in Sex and the City, Carrie, I think was offered $4 per word by Vogue. Oh, wow. And I was like, that is so much. It's time because I was making one or two dollars. I mean, I was salary, but when I would do freelance, it was usually $1 or $2 per word. And as an editor at Time Out in New York, I paid a dollar per word when I would assign stories to other people. But I don't, I, a dollar per word now is like my understanding. Again, I'm not really doing this. I'm, I would, but I'm not in that world as much. Yeah. But like you can't get that anymore.

1:00:39Oh, wow. That's why I'm understanding of it. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe I imagine certain magazines still are paying that, but so many people are just writing for the web where it's like, here's a few hundred dollars. Yeah. It's a different, different price. Yeah. I mean, I have had the, I'll just say interesting timing my whole career of like, I mean, I sat through lots of different revolutions in photography. Like for a digital revolution, it took part in that, you know, and then the revolution that was like basically killed magazines, you know, I used to have a running joke that I, if you wanted your magazine to fold higher me, I would for Matt and Matt and Matt was all right before folded. I worked for talk before folded. I worked for Jellies. I worked for, oh my God, I had a list at one point, you know, teen people. I had a list of like 15 magazines and I would be so excited to start working for that, but took like years of networking. Yeah. I mean, it was, I did like more I carry there and all this stuff. And you know, I, every time I would like break through and get this amazing opportunity, that magazine would seize publication. I was like a death knell for magazines.

1:01:43But yes, the, the, this, the state of magazines has not got better photography at all. There was very few that are running any other kind of stuff that I used to do. So I don't look to that. But I am now doing some editorial stuff just like that's for peanuts because it's like a collaboration that I want because it would lead to something else or it's with an artist that I'm working with or something like that. But yeah, so I sat, you know, all the photography was basically dying the whole time I was in it. And then I, you know, jumped into directing and got into commercial directing right as that was completely tanking as well. So why was that tanking? Well, it is because no one's, there's no one's buying commercials for television anymore. That's where the money was all those high budgets were for that. Now everything is digital only and you can still make it living. But it's like you're doing a lot more projects smaller. Right. Each one is smaller. Everything's tighter. Everything's faster. You know, it's the digital era. How does, okay, this is a, this is like an essay question. But how does directing, because so you said that you kind of got to the point where you were

1:02:45feeling limited by single images. So you wanted to get into directing. So how does it differ from shooting a story? So if you're shooting on a high level like for a magazine where you're working with like Grace Coddington and there's a theme and you're doing like a Grace Coddington. She's the red haired Vogue stylist. Okay. She's in the September issue. She became a celebrity. She's like long time stylist of a, so you're doing like a big 10 page spread with a celebrity that's like with a theme like spring fashion, whatever it is. That is similar in the sense that you are storyboarding it. You are, there's a narrative. There's a narrative. Yes, exactly all that kind of stuff. The stuff I was doing was more either just singular portraits or photojournalism or, you know, trend stuff, whatever, all the different stuff I did. It wasn't really like that. So the technical parts of directing are very, very different. The, the, for me, the, the through line is that all my directing stuff still feels very grounded in reality. It's a lot of like either it's real people or it's actors who really are giving performances

1:03:47where they feel real. It's a, I don't do like highly, like super silas futuristic sci-fi. It's still sort of grounded in the same world of what I came from, like a, like a journalistic truth and stuff like that. The, the impetus was a being frustrated by the single image. And then I, I mean, I, I hooked up with the DP. I'm marrying. It was like, he was like a young guy with a camera and he's like, let's shoot some stuff. And so I wrote an idea for a story that we ended up shooting as a short at Fashion Week. And we got into like a big prestigious international film festival with that. We had, we had David Dismulsion, who was like a big star. And he was our lead in it. He was like, we were like running around in the alley behind my building, shooting dead bodies. And like it was crazy. It was so fun. And I was like, this is amazing. So, and then I came out here and I did a commercial director's diversity program, which teaches you how to actually be like a commercial director, how to do the treatments and write a bit and, you know, get involved. And so the parts of it where you're working with talent to tell a story, that's very similar. The parts of it where you're, you know, merging imagery and a story, that's similar.

1:04:49You know, the technical stuff is all pretty different. I'm often doing both at the same time. Like I just finished a campaign where I was directing the commercial and I shot the stills. That's great because then you're doing both. You're keeping control over both. You're working with the same actors. You're telling that you can make sure the story works, you know, across both formats. But yeah, there's, I would say there's probably more similarities than differences, but there's a lot of differences. How much are you sort of having to figure out how to get the best shot or the best performance from an individual person? Like how much are you modulating? Like when, as an interviewer, I'm kind of constantly modulating my approach to sort of what I'm, the, I'm trying to match my vibe to the person in a, in a, to put it in really plane terms. Like how much are you doing that as a photographer or a director? I would say that I have similar techniques when I'm doing both, which, which involves sort of like leading with like empathy and like the who this person is even when it's an actor.

1:05:54Like I, one of the, one of my trade secrets people was like, what, you know, how do you make this feel so real? And I'm like, actors are also real people. They also have insecurities. Like, you know, it's a, it's considered like a big deal to be able to like direct real people in a way to be uncomfortable on camera. That comes from a year's of journalism 100%. Like you just talk to people on a job and you're, it's about them. So you're letting them dance with you to create the story of, you know, on film of, you know, who they are. So when I'm directing real people, real people talent, it's a lot of that same stuff. It's letting them lead. It's listening to them. It's having to be their story and all that kind of stuff. And then when I'm directing talent, like actors and stuff, I, I really try to engage with them as people first, you know, because they are. And I think that they, they appreciate not being treated like ponds on a board where they're just like an abstraction, you know. And in the, in the best cases there, you're, there you're real allies on a shoot and they're, they're, they appreciate being treated as collaborators and not just as like, you know,

1:06:59a paid actor or paid commercial actress there to pay their rent that month. Right. So there's some areas and again, you know, it's the same thing when you interview somebody, it's all about picking up on that. But I still try and do that with actors as well, trying like figure out who they are, what they're feeling, what they're dealing with. Like come at it from that perspective and make it about them a little bit. Yeah. Let them incorporate who they are into the character or stuff like that. That's really interesting. Um, I'm going to now talk about a brand that I love. And then, okay, I would like to find out how you found your DP man. Oh. And also it means a director of photography. And also I would like to hear about to be in a stage model, a reluctant stage mom. That's right. I don't know if you're familiar with Quince, but I love them. They have amazing. She's amazing. They are. They have amazing sheets. They have amazing shirts, amazing sweaters. Yes, I have a cashmere. One of my favorite sweaters is a cashmere sweater from Quince. My, all of my favorite sweaters are from Quince. And then I've started outfitting my kids in Quince stuff because they're my younger son,

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1:09:05Allison Rosen get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK to that's Quince QU I and C E dot com slash Allison Rosen. Okay. So what I remember, I don't know if you want me to say this on air or not. So maybe I won't, there was a food network personality that you had dated. Wasn't there? Oh, wow. Yes. You don't have to say it is if you don't want. I actually just saw him for the first time in 20 years recently. Actually, that was bonkers. Yes. I dated one of the early food network people back in the day. That was over by the time you and I met. Yes. I don't know how it had come. I think you and Todd were maybe talking about it. Like maybe he knew about it. I mean, that was like my cereal. That was like my big serious boyfriend for a long time, you know, until I mean, there were like six months here, a year there. But that was like the big boyfriend. Do you not want to say who it is? And it's totally okay if you don't want to know. I probably shouldn't. Okay. So then how did you meet your husband?

1:10:05Well, it was like many, many eons later. I'd gone through all of New York City at that point. I met him because my guy friend who was, I had a guy friend who was like kind of like, we reach other substitutes like when neither one of us was dating, but we had a party to go to or you're like, you chose plus one. Yeah. I met him at the, he had been to my parents house in DC. We went on vacation together. Like we never hooked up. We're not each other's type at all. He's adorable, but we're not each other's type at all. And we were good friends. And he was working in the industry. He was working in like commercial stuff and he was doing like set stuff. And there was this like new guy on his crew that he kept talking about. And he's like, oh my buddy, Jack, my buddy, Jack. Now I have to just say, and this is me into all of Jason's former friends. And I apologize, but over the years, I met a lot of Jason's friends. And it was always like one douchebag after an idiot, after a moron, after like, I prayed. I know tell this story and I exaggerated it and made it much. I'm like, one was a hunchback. One was like, one had three arms. Like, and none of that is true. But they just was like, oh, a trotiously not attractive in one way or another.

1:11:07Every single one of them for years and years. So when he starts talking about his buddy, Jack, his buddy, Jack, I'm just like, uh-huh. It's gonna be another one of these losers, you know. And we met at Hotel Domano. Do you remember Hotel Domano? No. It was a, it was sort of that first blush of the gentrification of Brooklyn, where it was, it was, it was even in the times for having a red velvet rope and being, and maybe I do. Yeah. This is ringed out. And it was very old fashioned. It was like the speakeasy, it was a beginning of the speakeasy thing. And so it looked like nothing from the outside. It was beautiful and dark inside. It was that whole speakeasy vibe. And we used to go there pretty regularly. I would go there with my editor from Lucky and all this stuff. And so I was meeting Jason there when I was coming from work. I remember what I was wearing. But I also, I had my big camera with me. So I finally meet this dude that he's been telling me all about. And we were all playing with my camera. So I have an amazing physical record of the night that we met. Oh, that's so cute. That's so sweet. He had really gross long hair and he carried a comb around with him. So at one point I was teasing him about that and he put his hair into like, do you remember?

1:12:09What was the, oh my god, I'm going to tell like with this story now because I don't remember the, the movie that came out to brothers and other directors. I'm totally having a senior moment right now. And it was the super attractive Spanish actor. And he had that like almost long bob in it. He plays a killer with that like crazy hair. So I'm like, and have a year of bar down. Yeah, maybe it was heavy right now. No country for old men. No, is that that one? Does he play a killer in that one? I actually haven't seen the other one. It's the other one they did before that. Okay, he plays this murderer with like this crazy bad like bob hairstyle. So Jack was like combing it into that. And I've pictures of me at this terrible handlebar mustache like I was just like, oh my god. What a douchebag. But he had twinkly green eyes and he was very funny in a quiet way. And we hit it off. And then I over time I found myself making plans with Jason on nights that I wouldn't have. But only if I knew that he was going to be hanging out with Jack. And I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting. I tried to set up with my friend who liked old younger guys because I did not like younger. How much younger than you as he's five years younger than him. Okay. That's reasonable.

1:13:10Um, he calls me the babysitter when he's mad at me. Um, and that that was she said to me, I remember her saying to me, I think you like him. And I was like, no, I don't like, blah, I don't like me. I like him. I don't like him like him. And she's like, no, I think you do. Um, and then it's a classic boy meets girl. We got John. When I had a maid out of the bar, you know, and you've been together ever since. That's so sweet. That's so sweet. Did you always know you wanted to have kids? I always wanted to have kids that I would have done about myself. That was my that was my that was you like frozen your eggs. No, but that was kind of my thinking when I bought the apartment was like, if I'm going to, if this is going to be my life, I want to set myself up so that like, I could, I mean, the place was which is one of the many, but there was a single mom in our building with the same size place. And I wanted some stability and stuff like that. And I, I would have done it by myself. Okay. If I had to. So then you go ahead. I do think now like much further along actually I was already dating Jack. I found out that I'm broke up positive, which is, oh yeah, I know what that is. My mom was rack-a-positive. Okay. But you're not? I'm not. I'd still, I still did have a hysterectomy last year.

1:14:13So my mom had primary paratoneal cancer, which is the same as a barricain cancer. I don't have a raise anymore. Yes. So, in fact, they now think that most of it actually is from the flow before. Yeah. The tubes on the exactly instead of the actual ovaries. That's correct. So she found out she was rack-a-positive after getting cancer. So then they did, you know, she got everything out. But some doctors, I think most doctors actually feel like if said given that I'm rack-a-negative, I don't have increased odds. But then there are a few doctors, her oncologist, my gynecologist who are like if your mother has, essentially, ovarian cancer, your chances of getting it might be elevated. And I had endometriosis. Oh, so it's like, goodbye. Yeah. And I haven't looked- But did you do your tubes as well? I got everything out. Yeah. Because sometimes people would have their, their, like, his right to me and they didn't take out the tubes. Right. Because they would have the ovaries and not take out tubes. Yeah.

1:15:13Yeah. So they're sick. So no, I'm all done with all that. I only brought that up to say that when I found that out, I was personally glad that I hadn't found out until later because I, given that I knew I wanted kids, I could see how bad decisions might have gotten made with bad guys along. Oh, right. My, the aunts and uncles were all like, should we tell our kids who are younger than me? And I was like, I don't know if I had known, like, there's definitely at least one douchebag in my past that I might have put an oopsie with, you know, and then you're stuck with them for 18 years. So wait, I'm not quite following why you would have made different decisions. Because if I thought that I might not be able to have kids, when I want them later on, I might have- Because you felt like your future could have been uncertain or because you felt like you would have had a surgery to remove everything. I would have felt like I need to do this earlier than I could do it. Got it. Yeah, there was no guy in sight. I see. And it wasn't, I mean, you know, even now it's super expensive to do it on your own.

1:16:14And I think my idea of doing it on my own was like getting knocked up on purpose. Right. Going and clinic and all that stuff. So I just, you know, I think that I ended up being glad I didn't find out until I found out. How did you find out? My, I got sick. And then person went and got tested and then all the cousins got tested. Yeah, that kind of thing. So as someone who's a lack of positive, what do you do to monitor? I just came from my trans-vaginal ultrasound this morning. Okay. Really exciting, you know. I still monitor that. I'm so sick over here. I hadn't been in like three years. You know, I have to get- I can't do mammograms because I- This is all- there's no breast tissue anymore, but I go get all that stuff checked out. Okay, so you had a- you had a double mast back to me. Mm-hmm. And reconstruction. How was that? I mean, we joke now that it's over, that it was a $300,000 boob job for a break. But it was atrocious. It was very, very difficult physically and emotionally and all that, but it also was not ever a question. You know, I wanted to kids and I wanted to breastfeed.

1:17:15I just did like no right or wrong either way. I don't care like what everyone else does. That's what I wanted to do. So I did. I went a little bit crazy. I breastfed both kids for 18 months, you know? And then when I was done, I was like, okay, and now it's time to get to your time. I didn't have my baby until I was 40, my second one. So at that point, I was already older than they want you to be when you start doing all this stuff. Did you have- have you had a hysterectomy as well? I did a misogyny. I had the tubes and ovaries out. Okay. And I did that first. I did that in 2015 as soon as I got to LA. And I was actually able to keep breastfeeding after that, which is crazy. Wow. So then are you on hormone replacement? Yes. Same. So you on that as soon as you wake up from the surgery, probably you as well? I was actually already on it, given my age. I had maybe like, I don't know, eight months before or something. I just, I started having night sweats. I was still getting a period, but it was your regular and heavy, but I started having night sweats. And I was like, I can't live like this. And then I was having hot flashes on all that. So- I mean, at the time when I went on it, I was, none of my friends were even thinking about that. And now of course they're all asking me what patch I'm on.

1:18:16And you know, but I had to do that. Like when you, as soon as they take your ovaries out, you're basically enforcement of hormone. Surgeable. So that was way before I even did the breast surgeries that was for many years before actually. So I went on like a patch in a pill combo and takes a while to figure that out. Like I've got bad combinations for a while. I almost crushed my car and a blackout stuff like that. But now I just live my life and I never really felt any different. And now all my friends are in like either paramedicos or menopause. And they're all like, oh my god, I'm so hot. I'm like, I've never had a hot flash. I just had the patch as soon as I woke up from surgery. You know? Right. And then my one friend likes to point out to me, she says, you know, at some point you're going to have to just let yourself get old. And I'm like, oh, I guess at some point you just stop doing the hormone replacement? Like I don't know. I think I don't know what age it is though. And I feel like my mom didn't go through menopause fully until she was like almost 60s. Really? Yeah. So I'm not in a rush to, yeah. You know, do a head of that. I don't know. It's all, but all of this actually ended up being really tied to my career.

1:19:17Because in my directing work, I did one thing that was like using this experience that ended up being like a bit of a breast cancer thing. And then that has led to a lot of work in cancer. And specifically breast cancer stuff. I've done a lot of like dark work and branded content dark work for from companies and some of that very often working with real breast cancer patients. And it's become like a cornerstone of my work actually. And that part I love. I love if some pharmaceutical company wants to pay me to do good work with real patients, I'm like, sign me up. That sounds great. Yes. You know? Yes. And I end up doing quite a bit of, you know, any travel around the country. And I meet breast cancer survivors and work with them intimately. And I mean, that's, it's really rewarding. It's really great work. So. So I am, I'm seeing the time. And I know that you kind of have a hard out, but I want to be able to get to everything. Okay. Real fast. Okay. So we have segments to get to. Okay. But just real fast. You'll just have to come back. But real fast, what is it like being a reluctant stage mom? Okay. So the reluctancy, it's so weird. This was an accident sort.

1:20:18I mean, my friends will tell you that that's not true. My one friend is constantly yelling at me like, just admit that you are going to be famous. And I'm like, it's never been about fame. Ever like it don't. That's a side effect if it ever happens. And it's not my goal. I've worked with famous people my whole life. I'm not phased by that. I would say during the pandemic, we started making stuff at home. We had two cute kids at home who had done a little bit of modeling and whatever. And like everyone thinks their kids are adorable. But I was like, great. So we made a couple of things using our kids. And then, and that was just because we needed to work. And then they were there and we couldn't really be around talented on that. So we made a couple of things with them. During the pandemic, my daughter just from like her mulling agency who she hadn't done any work for got cast in a Taylor Swift music video. That's so cool. Which video? Willow. And it launched the new secret album. And it was like, they had told us it was for a different song. We filmed it. But think it was for a different song on the first album on folklore.

1:21:18And then it was like the Taylor like, I didn't get to work with her. I got my first job since the pandemic that week. I'm at a town my husband took her to the job. What does he say? She was like, it was, they had an incredible experience. The craziest part was that the DP on that is of DP that Jack has worked with. And he walked in and and it's Rodriguez. Rodriguez was like, famous. And Rodriguez was like, hey, bro, I didn't hire you today. He said, nope, I'm just a stage dad. Like it was crazy. So they went and did that. I was not around, which breaks my heart. Taylor was amazing to Indy. She took her backstage and let her see where they were cutting it on the spot. She gave her tons of swag. Indy tells me now she was like six. She laid back and put her feet up on the table. And they offered her the card again, like the card again. Wow. And Indy was like, no, I don't want it. And Taylor was like, maybe you want to take it over your mom? And she was like, no, she wouldn't like that either. And I was like, oh my god. Taylor, I'm sorry, I would tell her the word you're card again. So that was an amazing experience. And then we, when it launched, we thought it was going to be for the first album. It was the midnight launch, the surprise, the way that she launched the second album.

1:22:20And evermore. And so when it came out at midnight in East Coast time, we thought we're just going to watch a regular music video. And it was instead it was the launch that we were freaking out. And like, and very quickly, people tracked our home address, pictures of our house on the internet. That's weird. There was the freaky as quote was, this is where the girl in the willow music video lives. You can breathe the same air as someone that Taylor breathed or something like that. And I was like, we're in a pandemic. We're not breathing. Yeah, he was air. We left our house in months. And I was like, okay, that's really scary. So we reached out to every single person we knew in the business. And you know, managers who handle kids. And we got a manager who sort of helped us navigate that part of it. And then the part where people are creepy. And we're just not some stuff to hang off the internet. Like just, you know, what should we do to make it harder to trace? And we should do to make it harder to connect her to us. Because we're sort of out in public as a creep. But like, just to make it a little more, you know, a couple of layers.

1:23:20A bit of pain. Yeah. Our very small child who is like a snack, you know. So it was really creepy. That part was creepy. But the experience overall was great. And we ended up, they both signed with the agent they're still with. Lee, it's Auburn. And she started putting them up for stuff. And then because it was the pandemic. And then afterwards, everything's virtual. Like I would never have survived as like one of those moms that has my kids in fake school and drives them around from Burbank to Santa Monica. And then back in a day or they take them out of school for it. It was all done by Zoom. It was all done turning in your tapes. And we turned in hundreds and hundreds like so many before anything actually happened. And then my son booked a couple of TV shows. And he got to work with Nisi Nash. And had a great time with her. And she was like, call me your star and all this. And then Indie got to do an Apple TV show. And then she did a couple of other projects. And then she booked a huge movie. And then the shit has a fan. It got totally crazy. And now I'm like stage bombing a solid 10% of my time.

1:24:21Maybe 15% of my time. What's the movie? She's in the house made. My daughter is the kid in the house made. Which was an amazing adventure. I had to say two months off of work and go live in the woods in New Jersey. And not tell anybody where I was. Does she ever or have you seen other kids ever get tired? I mean, obviously they get tired. But like, here's, okay, so my listeners know. I've talked about it a little bit. That because Daniel and I have so many reservations about the notion of like LA at doing this, even though he really wants to. But we're kind of like taking a step by step. But he has no sense of what it is actually like to actually be on a set. Although I think he would like it. But it has never been a moment where she's just like, mom, I'm tired. I don't want to perform. No, but that's also because our first movie was a Paul Feeck movie, which is a super fun environment, almost all women and positions of power and decision-making. She didn't have any kind of crazy long hours.

1:25:21She was, you know, she didn't, it wasn't things like sudden script changes. Or it wasn't like you have to go out and public and be like this or like that. It wasn't like it wasn't like some of the children's television and networks where they're trying to change who you are as a person or have an influence on. She just was a kid who went to work over too much. She really only works like 18 days over two months or something like that. And it's a blast. Like being on set is the fun part. Like this vlog is the auditioning, rejection, the getting excited about something and not getting it. Like once you get to set, that part should be really fun. Like everyone's nice to you. She's the only kid in the movie. Basically, with a couple kids that had smaller scenes, but she's hanging out with like certifiable movie star. She went nice to her. Like, Sydney was divine and took her under her wing. And like, babysat her, it was awesome. And her mom was played by Amanda Sivert, who she knew as Karen from Mean Girls, her favorite movie. Oh yeah. I'm like, and it's a dream. Yes, it was a, it was an absolutely divine first big movie project, you know.

1:26:22And so there's not really enough time for her to be like, I hate this unbored. Like that might change. It has to come from them. They have deleted it. Like I said, I'm reluctant about all of this. I've, you know, it wasn't her first set, though. They've been on our sets. They've been to work with us. They know what we do. I think to them, it's kind of unscary and familiar for that reason. And it was like a somewhat natural progression from just the one music video. And I'm like, yeah, try this and try that. And I'm not, I don't mean to make it sound easy. We've done at least, at least 300 auditions for the four parts they've booked or something like that. You know, it's a lot. But because it's now virtual, at least the first step or two, that makes it a little bit easier, a little bit more. When you said that, that made me feel better about it. Because it, honestly, it's the getting a call in the morning. And you have to be somewhere far away by 12, 30 that day. Like how light or whatever it is or even three o'clock. I don't know. That seems so far. Castors feel that other podcasters, but I have listened quite a bit to,

1:27:23to Jason Baman's podcast and talks. Oh, yeah. Pretty. I'll allow it. Okay, thanks. He talks pretty extensively about his childhood where he went to like school on some school bus and the valley that was a bunch of other actor kids. And it wasn't like an actual certified school. And they would just take the afternoons off to go audition for stuff. And like, that's a different world. It's not like that anymore. That takes a level of perseverance that is kind of incredible. It's probably a full-time job for one parent, if not a very part-time job for both parents, something like that. You know, that would not be doable for us. That we would never have gotten past stage one if it were still like that. Yeah. All that being said, it's not easy. And there's gatekeepers along the way. And it's not set up to be easy. And then when you get there, if you don't like it, you got to have the kind of parents that you bow out. Like we're in a week of very sad news about former child actor who did not have the support system around her. Like that stuff hits me really hard.

1:28:24Like we have big conversations about that stuff. We talk with our agent. We talk with each other. We make sure the kids feel like we are their parents first. And we're out the second that starts to feel like otherwise. You know, and I know everyone says that, but I actually mean it because we're not living off of them. Right. They're not our meal ticket. So they're doing it because we live in LA and everyone we know is in the business. Do you let them, like my son is obsessed with squishies? Do you know what those are? Just let the squish talk to them. Yeah. And I know that if he made any money from acting, he'd want to spend it on all. I mean, yeah, it's like, do you let them buy themselves something exciting with their money? Um, no. I, we have so far put away all of it, except Indy now is at the stage where we are using some of the funds to pay for things in her career. Like some of her earnings went towards, you know, paying for us to go to the premiere. And things like that, like that. We, I will give her a little nominal amount of money

1:29:25from a paycheck and be like, hey, you've got a paycheck. Like, here's 20 bucks. You want to buy if you want to go to the forum. Buy some. Yeah. But besides that, no. And I think we're still figuring this out. I'm not telling anyone else how to do it at all, but we're still at the stage where like, they're doing this because it's fun and they're really good at it. And they've had some success. And it's really good for like learning how to speak publicly, stand up for yourself, like, be bold, make eye contact with adults, like all those things. It's great for all of that stuff. There has been no weird creepiness besides the person who posted our picture or house on the internet. There's been nothing I haven't been able to shelter them from. There's been no downside so far, except the rejection, but learning how to deal with rejection is a really good trait for kids. You know, they're really resilient. But I, but there's also no, like, we're not, they, we don't need them to make money doing this right now. Yeah. We're still, supporting your family as unemployed artists in LA. And, and so there's not that weird flip where they're like, who am I? And I'm I in charge of my parents.

1:30:26Can I boss around like no, they're totally normal kids. They go to free school. Did you read Jeanette McCurdy's book? I did. I only just read it. I know it came out a while ago, but that, I mean, that's a situation. 100% of the lessons that I listened to it on tape because I was on a long, so I just read the word. That's the same. But I do read and I did read that book. And yeah, I mean, again, that and the, you know, hearing about hate this week and stuff, it's everyone's happy to blame the mom. And sometimes that's valid. I will never be that mom, you know, that is totally her fault or whatever. I mean, but it seems like that's true in all of these cases. Like if the mom is pushing and the mom, it's then the intention. Which you never want to do it clearly. Well, and also it was extreme, like the body control. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's an extreme. That's why I say reluctant. I don't see any piece of myself in that world at all. It's a big bite of Humble Pie. Like to be on set, I want, I'm a director. I direct commercials, I direct documentary content.

1:31:27I would love to direct TV stuff like that. I've been working towards that for a long time. I'm not really getting, I'm having any progress. It's not easy to put yourself 100% aside and go be on set with an incredible team of filmmakers, women producers, people that you like and admire, people who have their own female empowerment program is built in and never say a word about that. Yeah, I am not real like a friend of wipes. They didn't know my real last name as far as I know. Like I mean, my working last name, I made a name. There was never a single conversation about any of that. Like there's no place for that. That's so, I've thought about that a little bit too. Like what if, because I'm frustrated in my career, and like what if his career is the one that like rockets to the top? Jack and I joke that we're gonna be the first generation of nepot parent. Like we're like, hey, Jack is like, Andy, can you hire me as your driver? And like maybe I can camera operate on one of your, and you know, and I'm like, I'm like, if I did another short right now, would you be in it and she's like, we'll see. Yeah, we do joke about that stuff.

1:32:30That's super funny. I mean, I guess, I guess, because it's Ellen Scarlett's going, he's made that joke as well about being a nepot parent because his kids are all acting so much. Oh, and they've started acting together and stuff. So yes, when I made that joke, I hadn't heard anyone else say it, but other people are now saying that they are also nepot parent. Were you invented though? To myself. All right, let's do some fun segments. Okay. Oh my gosh, I should look at my notes. What do you ask to be first? We go in order. Okay. Do you like, do you like, but what do you like? All right. Favorite word. Yes. It was like current, which is a word I'm, or just a general word. It could just be any word that you like. I just like to talk about words. So I, I really like the word odious to describe something. I know. Because it's like, there's different, there's a harsher meaning, which is more like something like almost like scary. I said, but I like the sort of like repulsive version, like the repugnant disgusting. I like to describe people. Yeah. This word, it's really good. Because it's like, I guess there's a, there's a version of it that's like hateful,

1:33:32or you hate them. And I'm like, let's not hate. It's a little more contemptuous than that. It's a little more just like, but like, yes, describing a man as an odious man is great use of that word. I love it. Wonderful. All right. Do you have one this week? I don't have one this week. You know what? Oh, I was going to say I can get my phone and I can grab one. But you know what? I will do a word. Okay. So I think it means can't be violating. Right. Like your invite rights to something. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. I just like, it's just, I just like the word. And I like the notion of like something that's sort of like, not vulnerable to this or that. I like that. Yeah. That's also one of those words that I could see someone misusing as a name. Like my friend swears that there was someone who named her kid placento and she was working at the hospital. That's so funny. You're like, oh, in violet, like violet, but with an in front of you. Yes. Totally. All right. Sometimes I wonder on something I have thought I've done.

1:34:34Is it just me or everyone? All right. Okay. What's here? Just me or everyone. So this brings us back to the Vichla situation. So if anyone doesn't know, a Vichla is a breed of dog. When I first got my first Vichla, nobody had them in America. They were really rare. It's kind of like a German shirt or a pointer, but rusty brown. I adopted mine from the pound 110th street where they thought she was a red nose pit bull and they were going to put her down. She was a peer-bred Vichla. She was the love of my life for 10 years. Her name was Vegas. So once I got Vegas, everything became about Vegas. She was my surrogate kid, my surrogate boyfriend, my surrogate family. Like I did everything where I got the truck for her as we established. Something I've always been someone who narrates inside my head what I'm doing. Once I got the Vichla, that shifted to a version where I'm constantly changing song lyrics in my head to include Vichla or her name. Like instead of like, I need a hero. It's I need a Vichla or what's another one. Even just the other day I found myself wandering in my house and the song TLC's CREEP.

1:35:37I was like, she's a Vichla. Always and I do this all day long without even realizing I'm doing it. I don't have Vichla anymore. I had two. Great Danes and everything is still Vichla or Vichla in the lyrics of songs. I love that. Very weird. I don't do that having never had a Vichla, but I bet other Vichla owners out there do do that. We'll find out. All right. And then lastly, hey, hey, go fuck yourself. All right. Do you have one? Does anyone who's pissing you off? This is really hard. I mean, because I just feel like I'm going to get people pissing me off all the time. My brand is sort of like a little bit more kind and empathetic than I am on a daily. I am. That is me. But like on a daily basis, I'm frazzled and pissed and tired and stressed and worried and all that. My husband suggested I share a recent story about the last time I was really incensed about something.

1:36:39I was thinking about changing up things and maybe working with like a photographer's rep. I worked with one who does just commercial stuff for while she's phasing out of the business. A mutual friend had suggested that I reach out to her friend who is a female photographer who had apparently had a stagnant period in life and then got an agent and according to her, got an agent and took off like gangbusters. I've been working crazy ever since. I was so great and busy. She gave me her email and I reached out woman photographer to woman photographer and said, hi, I wasn't asking her for an agent. I wasn't asking her for help. I was just like very nicely saying, hey, our mutual friend said that your agent has been really helpful. And then someone was right for you to have you found it helpful. And I got this email back that sent me into a spiral of darkness for days. Like I really, she took a while to write me back. And when she did, it was not only incredibly dismissive. It was rude. It was defensive. It was like 99.99% of the work I get. I get myself my agent doesn't do anything.

1:37:40And my suggestion to you is, this is the best part. My suggestion to you is to have good vibes, period, and do good work. Oh my God. A hundred percent. Hey, go fuck yourself. Oh my God. And I took a minute. I took this in as insulting and hurtful and aggressive. And I was like, maybe I'm crazy. So I sent it to like 15 women that I know and just a professional woman. And they were all like, what a fucking bitch. Don't take it. But I, spy rolled. I was like, what's so condescending. It's so like putting you in your place. Do other photographers think I'm a bad, like just do good work? Really? I've been in this business for 25 years. I don't do any work. Did she not know? I have no idea. It's because it was my website. You can look me up. She either didn't look and is an idiot. It sounds like I really hated my work and is an asshole. It sounds like horrible advice to someone like just starting out. Yeah. You know, that's the part. Oh my God. What a bitch. I was like, what a bitch. Done. And I was depressed. Yeah.

1:38:40I was like, two weeks. My friends were like, let's snap out of it. You don't know anything about this person. Maybe she was having a bad day. I'm like, I hope she had a bad day. Yeah. I had the blues. I felt personally attacked. And I felt like, yeah, I would too. There's no solidarity in photography. It's not even a women directing. There's women directing groups. I'm in them. Everyone's supportive and loving. Photography is a scarcity mindset. People are like, if you have a client, I can't get that client. If I have that client, you can't get that client. It's all about like, there's a pie that's disappearing and there's not enough, which is not fun. I would rather it was collaborative and supportive of other women in the industry and it doesn't feel that way. And thanks a lot, lady. You know who you are. You made me feel that way. What a bitch. Oh my God. I am on your behalf. I am in a sense. Take care. Oh my God. That is like, I'm not misinterpreting it. I really ran it by a lot of people. Yeah. Oh yeah, no, you're not. That's a dig. I did it. Oh my God. Well, this has been too much fun.

1:39:41I'm so glad that we did this. We were going to just get together and have a guess. And then I was like, I need to hear your story because you've done so much cool stuff. Thank you. So please come on my show. Okay. So if people are like, I want to know more about her. Do you want to throw out a plug anything you like to talk about? Sure. I mean, I'm working on all different stuff. As always, my website is my name, ElizabethLibin.com. There's directing and photography stuff on there. I'm doing like editorial stuff for, I mean, I don't want to send it to you for fun because then that makes something I'm really happy to work for. Not, but like, you know, commercials and short film projects. And my husband's sitting on a grant that we have to spend. Oh cool. A good project. If someone's got a directing project for me, let's do it. Let's partner. I'm looking for a good screenwriter who wants to partner on some stuff. And I'm not really plugging anything in particular. All right. Maybe I'll come back with the kid one time. You want to do like, oh yeah. I want to interview with a sassy little how old is she again? She just turned 12. That would be fun. She's hilarious. I'd like to remind everyone that I'm on Patreon. Patreon.com slash Allison Rosen.

1:40:43And then also I'm on Substack. Substack. Allison Rosen.substack.com. And if you like what you're hearing, tell a friend, leave five stars, leave a review, do all that stuff. It helps the show. Thank you so much. Thank you so great. You did great. Thank you. Listeners, thank you for listening. I love you. Goodbye. Bye. Bye.