Ep. 1020: The Future of Wild Turkeys and Turkey Hunting with Dr. Mike Chamberlain

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Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast.

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And now your host, Mark Kenyon.

Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast.

This week on the show I'm joined by Dr. Mike Chamberlain

to discuss the future of wild turkeys and turkey hunting in America.

All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast brought to you by Multree.

And this week we are talking turkeys.

And we're talking turkeys because just a few days from now,

when a couple days after the show launches,

it will be turkey week at Mediter.

Turkey week is running March 30th through April 3rd, 2026.

All things turkey across the Mediter platforms, all sorts of new podcasts,

new videos, new articles, contests, social media.

Lots of fun reasons to get excited and celebrate turkeys.

And so this week we are going to do the same thing here on Wired to Hunt.

And my guest today is quite possibly the most well-known,

foremost expert on all things wild turkeys in America.

And that is Dr. Mike Chamberlain.

He's got a heck of a title.

His title is the National Wild Turkey Federation Distinguished Professor

at the University of Georgia.

This is the University of Georgia Warnell School of Forestry and Natural Resources.

Is the technical name there.

He has been researching wild turkeys for more than 30 years.

He is a passionate turkey hunter.

He is the creator and the most often content producer for wild turkey labs,

wildturkeylab.com, I believe, is the URL for that website where you can find all sorts of

articles, research papers, basically everything that he has compiled, worked on, or been a part of

when it comes to wild turkey behavior, research, studies, the status of their populations,

and much, much more.

If you enjoy turkey hunting, this is somebody you should be listening to.

And hopefully you've already heard from him, read some of his things,

seen him across the world.

He's very active in the public.

He's one of our, you know, as I mentioned, great communicators on this topic.

But what I wanted to chat with him today about was the future.

What does the future hold for this animal, this bird,

this so many of us love to chase, to hear, to hunt, to eat?

Over the last five or six years, there has been an increasing awareness

of the fact that turkeys are not doing as well as they once were.

There's been a lot of debate about why that might be.

There's been a lot of discussion about what we should do about it,

and what, in fact, is happening and how hunters maybe can or cannot make a difference

on what's happening with turkeys.

Should we be lowering bag limits?

Should we be changing season dates?

Should we not be using certain turkey loads?

Should we not be using decoys or blinds or reaping techniques?

There's all sorts of debate on this front.

And all of that is why I wanted to have a kind of status update from Mike.

What's actually happening now?

What can we confirm is true?

Where is the jury still out?

What can turkey hunters do about this?

What do we need to be aware of as we come into the 2026 hunting season and seasons to come?

What's the future going to look like 10 years from now?

Or 20 years from now?

All of that is discussed today.

If you like turkeys, if you love turkey hunting,

this is a must-listen to help prepare you for what's coming down the line

and how all of us can ensure that there are many more enjoyable turkey seasons to come.

So that's what's in store for today.

I also want to let you know that we do have a really cool collaboration

with Dr. Mike Chamberlain and his wild turkey lab

with a project coming up related to Mediter's Turkey Week.

There's really neat initiative that Mike has going on called wild turkey DNA

in which he is asking for citizens to submit samples of any turkeys that they have killed

to have very unique plumage, like all white feathers or funky colors, different things like that.

And so Mediter is going to be hosting a photo contest

in which you can submit photos of your unique plumage turkeys

while also encouraging people to participate in this citizen science initiative as well.

You can learn more about that once turkey week starts at the Mediter website.

And that's theMeetEater.com.

It's kicking off March 30th, 2026, so check it out.

Until then, though, we're going to kick off turkey week a little bit early with this very

interesting, very practical conversation about the future of turkeys and turkey hunting

with Dr. Mike Chamberlain. Enjoy.

Alright, joining me now on the line is Dr. Mike Chamberlain. Welcome to the show, Mike.

Good to be with you, Mark.

Yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. It's been a long time coming.

You've been on the Mediter podcast. You've been all over the media world in recent years,

sharing the, I was going to say the good news, but in some cases good and bad news when it comes

to turkeys with the hunting world and have really made an impact. But for some reason,

I haven't gotten you on this podcast yet. So I'm glad it's finally happening.

Glad we have an excuse to get to chat some. And I want to just dive right in the deep end

because your time's valuable. The listener's time is valuable. And I don't think we have any time

to waste when it comes to wild turkeys. So if you could help us lay a foundation for this

conversation by giving me your best attempt at like a three minute history of turkeys in America.

If you were stuck in an elevator for like two, three minutes of someone and they said,

hey, what's the deal of turkeys here? Could you give us a quick, hey, they started here. This

happened. This happened. And now we are here. If you had to broadly summarize that trajectory.

Yeah, for sure. So I mean, turkeys followed a trajectory that a lot of of game and wildlife species

followed after colonization, you know, populations were largely decimated. The bird was extropated

from much of its historic range. And then in the after World War II, and particularly as you started

getting closer to the 60s and 70s, you started seeing restoration efforts that largely failed at

the start, but then really kind of accelerated in the 1970s, 80s and 90s and and turkey populations

were restored across their historic range and even into areas where turkeys were never historically

present. And so now there are wild turkeys in in 49 of the 50 US states and they're in multiple

other countries overseas as well. And then although things looked really good, the last 30 seconds

of that three-minute synopsis is around 2005 to 10. We started documenting fairly large scale

declines and turkey populations. At first, it looked like it was restricted to the south and east.

And as more research was conducted, it appears that those declines are much more widespread,

incurring across much of the Midwest and beyond. So that is now kind of where we are today with this

kind of pulse of turkey research that's out there trying to understand how to mitigate these declines.

So before we get into that last part, the recent declines, I want to zoom in a little bit on

that recovery phase. And I actually did have done a little bit of writing on this on another project

as I was kind of thinking through the many different examples of this kind of mid 20th century

recovery of many wildlife species that got pretty close to some serious, serious trouble.

And the turkey story is a really interesting one because it wasn't just like there was one major

legislative victory that saved them, right? It wasn't like, you know, market hunting of

bison being outlawed and then all of a sudden there was an opportunity for them to come back.

It was something that was much more, at least seemingly, much more driven by people, regular people

who volunteered their time or who joined an organization to do these trap and transfer programs

and at all that, could you share a little bit more about what that looked like? Because that's

such an encouraging hopeful story of what regular people were able to do and maybe could do again.

Yeah, turkey restoration was largely driven by turkey hunters and biologists in a number of states

who had a passion to hunt turkeys and were dismayed at the lack of opportunity to do that.

And so you saw these early efforts by pioneers like Wayne Bailey and other biologists who figured

out how to capture turkeys at scale. In other words, how do you catch a flock of turkeys so that you

could transport them somewhere and release them? And so you really saw this kind of grassroots

effort that started in the back 40 with folks who just love turkeys and wanted to be able to

experience hunting those birds. And many of these folks hunted for seasons and never interacted

with a turkey. There's stories of people, you know, folks that were involved in restoration,

spending an entire season trying to hear a bird, the gobble. And yeah, and so you really saw this

kind of this upswale in, hey, we figured out how to do this. We figured out how to capture wild

birds and move them. And once that occurred, you saw this real explosion in the desire because

now there was a way to do it, right? There was an opportunity, there was a methodology in place.

And then really restoration just exploded.

Once states realized that they could, they could trap and transport across state lines

by cooperating with the National Wild Turkey Federation, which put in place this system to where

there was a restitution cost associated with birds. So in other words, a state could request

birds from one state have those birds brought into their state and then pay restitution

for those birds. And what that allowed was, if you think about it, instead of just trapping turkeys

in your state where opportunities may be fairly limited, right? There may only be a small

population of birds in a particular state. Now suddenly, you could go to five states and get

birds. And that's why you saw in the late 80s and early 90s, Turkey populations just exploded

because states were trapping and transporting across lines. Was there anything unique

about that era that allowed for that to succeed like it did, whether that be habitat on the ground

or political wins or anything else, I don't know, social things going on? Is there anything

that you can point to that's like, oh yeah, this is why it actually worked so well or was it just this

wonderful coincidence that the stars aligned and there was people there willing to do the good work?

I think in a lot of ways it was a perfect storm where you got one you had you had habitat

characteristics across much of North America that were at the time fundamentally much better for

wild turkeys than they are today. You had turkeys being transported into parts of the landscape

where predators were not familiar with them didn't know that a turkey was a prey item. And in

some cases moved into areas that had very low predator abundance to begin with.

And then you also saw situations, if you think about it where you were kind of genetically mixing

up animals and creating and this is something we're actually studying now is whether this is a

good thing or not, but this kind of hybrid vigor right where you're sticking animals that are

genetically different from one another together into a landscape and and predictably you know

populations really exploded. And the other thing to think about critically if you're a turkey

hunter is that during restoration hunting was not allowed. So once birds were restored to a state

there was a there was a mandate where hunting could not occur within five years of those

restoration efforts. So you really saw turkey populations that were able to function without any

type of interference from us. And the result I think was was I mean it's one of the greatest

success stories in conservation history. And I also think that at the time the fabric of state

agencies and the fabric of NWTF and and the many people who were involved in the restoration efforts

that that generation they were they were they were turkey hunters first and foremost right they

were they were turkey enthusiast and they by and large had a passion for the bird and to understand

the value of existing with turkeys on the landscape and and having talked with many of those

folks who are now retired. That was their life man that's that's what they did like my job is to

restore turkeys in my state and they worked an entire career to do that and and I think that's

again I think it was kind of a perfect storm. Do we have those kinds of people still today?

Gosh that's a loaded question. Yeah. I think what you see when you look across state agencies

and and kind of the wildlife management community you see a very different fabric

than you did back in the 1970s and 80s and 90s you know unfortunately as an educator I see this in

my own institution that that most students that come into natural resources university programs

are not hunters most are not in fact a very small percentage are and so the people that are

staffing our state agencies now are just different and I'm not criticizing them I'm simply noting

that their their their fabric is different than the fabric of of many in the 1980s in 90s that

that drove turkey restorations. Is there any possible ripple effects of that that you can foresee

given that the perspective the background the values the cultural associations that a non-hunting

wildlife manager might bring to the table could lead to different outcomes or or maybe not

do you do you foresee anything given this you know natural shift that does seem to be happening?

100 percent I mean if you think about it decision-making at a state agency level that involves

people who are not hunters and have don't have the the mindset that a hunter would have if you I mean

it doesn't take a rocket scientist to kind of project that out across the next few decades and

and that concerns me and it concerns state agencies frankly I have conversations with

with administrators from a number of agencies who are concerned about that because if you think about

the constituents that the political process kind of you know works towards or works for if

if hunters are a very small voice period and we are not actively part of our state agencies

because of the the people that are graduating from universities and going into agency positions

are not hunters then I think it's logical to think that through time we're going to be under

represented in a way that maybe we're not thinking about because we we typically as hunters look

to our state agencies despite the fact that you know if you go on Facebook every state agency

is a demon but you know we criticize state agencies as hunters sometimes rightfully so but but

the state agencies are law are lawfully charged with conserving sustainable natural resources right

and and though many of those resources are our resources you and I cherish right whether it be

game or non-game and if you're a hunter and you kind of think about what the future is going to

look like in your state if your agency is staffed by people that are not like you that don't that don't

have the same passion that you have then that should be concerning to you it is

to to read between the lines a little bit how serious do you think the possibility of 20 years from now

30 years from now if we have continued declines in turkey numbers paired with increasing number

of managers who don't see the value in turkey hunters and turkey hunting and they see those two

things that being the health of turkey populations and participation turkey hunting as being

possibly opposed to each other because of those declines to you know looking forward to this is

the future of turkey hunting actually hunting them

seem at risk given that trend I think where mama goes mark is you know in the in the face of all

going declines and and to back up a little bit you know turkeys are doing quite well in in many

areas it's it's the fact that they're they're struggling in in kind of the heart of their range right

if you really look this the south and east is the heart of of wild turkey range and for for

populations to really excuse me be struggling in in many of those states and beyond causes you

pause and I think where my mind goes is you know none of us want lower opportunity none of us want

to to not be able to to chase the passion that we you know I live all year for for right now

for the next two months I think I tell my wife I exist all year for the next two months outside

of a few weeks when the rut hits but I kind of looking and I think okay what are my opportunities

going to look like in 20 years right as I'm on the precipice of my you know I'm at the very end

of my turkey hunting career what's the opportunity going to look like for me in other words

what are seasons going to look like what are are am I going to be hunting under under quota systems

in most places because there's so much demand for what supply it is available you already see this

as you know on public lands throughout much of North America and is that just the future for the

wild turkey in many in many situations are quotas if you will as you're and if you pay attention

if you're traveling turkey hunter this is already popping up right you know states are are limiting

non-resident access and opportunity as they should because of declining populations and so

is that just the future for me as a turkey hunter where there's going to be this consistent kind of

this decline and opportunity because there's so much demand for a reduced supply and that that's

where that's where my head goes when I when I'm asked that type of question is is that the reality

that I'm going to be looking at and and avoiding that reality is part of what gets me up in the morning

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duty the groundbreaking comedy series is back for season two featuring an all new cast this

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visit bahamara.com today so with that in mind Mike I guess I want to maybe I dove into the deep

end too quickly because I do want to get kind of a broad sense of of the reality of the situation

right now maybe over the last five years or so I feel like this whole realization that maybe

turkeys aren't doing as well as we once thought that's that's becoming top of mind for a lot of

people but I'm not sure that we have a clear sense of the severity of that I think maybe most

people they know oh there's there's some places the turkeys are kind of not like they used to be

but do you have a sense or could you give us a sense of if this is like a I guess on a scale of

one to ten ten being this is a five alarm fire the most dire crisis possible a one being things

are amazing they couldn't be better where on that scale would you rate your sense of concern right

now about the state of turkeys across America I think yet that completely depends on where you are

so like if and even within regions there's such complexity so for instance if if I'm in South Carolina

for instance or populations have continued to lag and the state agency has tried regulatory

changes in the population continues to to seemingly decline I'm concerned if I then go to other

places where populations like for instance in Louisiana populations seem to have gotten as low

as they were going to get and have responded to to changes over the last eight years ish and then I

go to places you know in the upper Midwest for instance where populations in some areas appear to

be doing quite well you go into areas out west and and turkeys are thriving in many places

almost to the point of over abundance in some situations and I think it just speaks to how

complex the the turkey world is if you will and really you know I kind of when I'm asked this at

a kind of a broad scale I'll talk to people that in a in a particular state that are like what are

you talking about turkey problem like I got turkeys running out of my ears you know and and I'll

be like yeah and counter blessings because I can take you right down the street here and and drive

you through a county that 10 years ago you could you saw turkeys all the time and you don't see

birds anymore they're just not there and if you look at you know many places in North America

that is a common refrain that's a common thing you hear or what I hear a lot is you know

I had a bunch of turkeys but around 2005 and man I still see turkeys but not like I used to

that's the common theme that I hear and so the severity of that equation just differs from one

point to the next yeah did I see I believe the number I saw was that the turkey harvest

in Georgia has declined by something like 75% over I can't remember what the time has been was but

does that trend sound accurate for some of those south the southeastern states yeah many

southeastern states have seen well over a 50 percent decline in harvest some 60 plus percent

and that you know if you think about it this way 20 years ago I could go turkey hunting

on public ground and rarely I could go an entire day and never bump into another hunter

I could go to a least property that I was a part of and there were no other members there

all you know and now it's a challenge to to go find a public ground that that is not being hunted

and competition for for least property is keen and and so there's so much interest around turkeys as

there should be they're an incredible species to hunt and and what's not to love but if you kind

of think about the world of harvest and you think what's changed in the last 20 years for harvest

to be declining speaks volumes about kind of where things stand because you know some will argue

will harvest is just an indicator of hunter activity and that's largely in some ways true but

if you have increasing interest and increasing participation and decreasing harvest the math

doesn't add up right that suggests a supply and demand issue and that's kind of what I was saying

earlier I that's what kind of gets me up in the morning is like okay I don't want to see a world

where we are dealing with these constant like quota caps you know limits that that that type of

thing because that that's a that's a that's a world where the opportunity to to chase this this

passion and you know is is going to be reduced I've heard you explain my area you answer my next

question let me let me raise this the natural question after hearing all this is is why why is

this happening right you've been asked that question a thousand times and it is a complex answer

I recognize and I've heard you once explain it with the analogy of a football team kind of being

representative of the interconnected variables that impact turkey health and populations could you

could you answer that question for me could you help us understand why these things are happening

and and maybe use that football analogy because I found that so helpful that's the that's the way

I I can think about it that makes sense to me is like every year in every spot the turkey

population is like a football game where your local population is influenced all the positions

that are on the field can influence the outcome but every single year in every single location

there are certain positions that influence every outcome habitat predation harvest you know etc.

But then in one particular area you may have a position on the field that disproportionately impacts

the game this year that doesn't impact the game in a subsequent year severe drought

very very wet two week period when hands are starting to hatch bolts and you you see this decline

in productivity those types of things that you can't really predict you can anticipate

and then the the kind of sinister positions you know if you think about a football game you know

offensive line always impacts the outcome of every game right quarterback played you know the

super important positions well those would be your habitat in your predator communities and

and those two are kind of intertwined everywhere you go

um so that's the way I think about it and then when I think about okay so why is this happening

I mean I don't think any informed person would ever argue that habitat is not the driving force

that's impacting turkey populations above everything else I don't think any logical person would

argue that that in most places habitat has changed quite a bit in the last few decades now of course

you and I we can go to places that damn near don't look anything different but 20 years ago they

look just like they look now but if you go east of the Mississippi in particular and you look at

the landscape now compared to what it looked like before you are going to see dramatic losses

of hardwood forest which are particularly important for turkeys one because they provide

hardmast in the winter but two they're also important for brooding um brood hens

if you think about it if you go in and take hardwood forest and you replace them with something else

and you undermine that that food resource it's not just well they they have to go eat something else

that's a fundamental problem because acorns build fat and fat makes hens more productive in the spring

and so in the bird world being big and fat is good and so if you take turkeys if you think about it

if you take hundreds of thousands of acres of hardwoods and you remove them and replace them with

something else that's a problem at the same time if you look at much of the United States now

compared to a few decades ago you're going to see that it's fragmented right we cut the landscape

up in the little pieces and those little pieces are easier for predators that eat turkeys and

their nests to hunt and so habitat and predation to me they're the same like they're interacting

with one another to influence turkeys and then you you tack in you know disease issues which we

don't see situations with turkeys dying in mass right like you see with waterfowl but we know

that turkeys have diseases and some of those diseases kill birds and then you you tack in you know

go out well out in the Midwest and look at agricultural practices and how they've changed in the

last few decades and how the availability of waste green is going to be much less now because of how

efficient harvesting practices are and and how mechanized agriculture is and and I guess my

point is if you just start if you sit back and start in your area start kind of picking apart

what's different now it doesn't have to be something that's so different than it smacks you in

the face it could be something that just slowly erodes the landscape and that's kind of consistent

with what we've seen with with these declines is they were not very rapid they were very very slow

it took us 20 years to get where we are and in a lot of ways it happened right under our noses

yeah well it's that that idea of shifting baseline syndrome right we we become used to

a new normal yeah and then that becomes our baseline and we forget about what that old baseline

used to be 20 years ago or 40 years ago hundred and many of us many of us never knew what it was

like 40 years ago so we have nothing else to compare it against um but but yeah if you were to

take a snapshot of our world today and compare it to what that landscape looked like 20 years ago

it's unbelievable it's unbelievable yeah and I talk with young or turkey hunters a lot about

this is you know if you're in your 20s or your 30s I mean I'm 54 I've been I started hunting

turkeys as a teenager and and I saw literally population restoration right before my eyes I mean

that when I started turkey hunting if you went and killed a bird in the spring you were you were

doing something and then I went through a period where there were so many turkeys on places I

went even public ground that you were paralyzed you didn't know which direction the head at you

know a half hour before sunrise in every direction it's like this is unbelievable and and now I've

seen those declines and and I've seen the landscape change in my lifetime and to your point those

changes in a lot of cases they reset your kind of your normal right and and now I go to places

that I hunted when I was say 25 and I don't even recognize those places and that happened right

in front of me and at the time it didn't seem that big of a deal right it's like the the 10 years

it took for that to happen or the 30 years it took that for that to happen didn't smack me in

the face like it does now now I see it and that's just kind of the way human humans function you know yeah

so it is it's hard sometimes to recognize what you were just sharing there which is like the slow

accumulation of habitat change and loss and fragmentation but it's really easy for us to point

a finger at competition right it's it it makes common sense that if that raccoon or that coyote

is eating eggs or eating my turkeys and I'm gonna have fewer turkeys to kill right why is it that you

say that predators in their impact are directly tied to habitat that that connection seems

possibly a little bit harder to to make could you help us understand that yeah what I'm saying

there is is in a lot of ways we have created situations that that benefit a predator versus a

turkey so if you if you if you take up you know take some of the big egg eaters rat snakes raccoons

you know species that even coyotes that are good agraters they you know if you're a raccoon or

coyote you're you're hunting with your nose and you're using a combination of cues your eyesight

you're hearing your nose to bounce around through the environment and if you can get on something

that's linear like a road or right of way or something that allows you to efficiently traverse your

range you can be more successful you can hunt bigger ground you can and particularly we see this

with raccoons is they are so intensive and how they they function as a predator they just

coerced over and over and over through places and so they are going to find a nest if it's

that right if it's there if it's in the core of their their activity areas they're going to find it

and and so if you kind of think about that and you say okay I'm going to take these big chunks of

habitat split them up into ten smaller chunks that may not seem like a big deal to us because

we're just looking at it it's green vegetation it's forest it's but every time you split it

into sections where a predator can more effectively course it they are going to be more effective

in general and that's so that's what I'm saying is in a lot of ways the habitat issues that we're

that we're seeing are kind of predisposing turkeys to dealing with with predation rates and

and the other thing I would say is on the flip side there's a large body of research showing that

you can mitigate predation through wise habitat management you know a prime example in my area would

be my own research showing that when you conduct prescribed burns you fundamentally change how

coyotes and raccoons use areas that are prescribed burn because you're essentially creating a

vegetative community that's not as conducive to their foraging efficiency so by burning these

these stands you're causing predators to have to shift their their centers of activity

and in so doing you can correspondally increase turkey success because you're changing how predators

are distributed so someone listening to this right now might be thinking all right I want to

try to improve the situation for turkeys in my area and I only have so much time and so money

resources and I'm thinking about how best to use my time if you had if you were forced to choose

and if you were forced to pick between investing time and energy and resources into

directly addressing predation by way of trapping and hunting or by investing your time

energy and resources into improving habitat I think I know the answer but which would you choose?

I mean ideally I choose both I always answer this the same way it really depends on

what you can control or what you can influence on at scale right and so if you're if you're

thinking about a while turkey you have to understand that their home ranges are quite large right

if you're in the eastern United States or even up and into the upper Midwest where you are I mean

you're talking birds that use thousands of acres in their annual cycle and and then if you go out

West and you look at you know subspecies like mariums they may move 10-15-20 miles between

their winter range and their spring breeding range so you've got an area that you got an animal

uses a lot of area right and so that's kind of how I approached the answer to this question

okay if you're impacting turkeys at scale at a fairly large scale then I'm always going to start

with habitat if I can as you scale down you just have to understand that your expectation needs

to be kind of predicated on the fact that you're influencing you know if you're managing 10 acres

or 20 acres or 50 acres you're influencing a small part of that annual animals home range so you

just have to be you know your expectations have to be couched in that the same goes with predators

exact same scenario if you're if you're capable of influencing predator abundance and distribution

and activity at a larger spatial scale then you would expect to have more impact on your local

population than if you were trapping a 10 acre you know woodlot in the back 40 if you will

and the other thing that's important to understand with with predators is that there are a lot of

predators that influence turkeys and some of those predators can't you can't legally manage right

and so that's just that's an important reason for me I'm trying to do both if I can if if I can

influence habitat and predators I'm going to do that if I can't touch habitat right I have no

ability to do anything with the habitat on the property that I'm that I have access to if you're

interested in managing predators I encourage people to do it I mean try it if you if you've ever

trapped you realize that is that's an incredibly rewarding activity it causes you attention to detail

and it puts you out in the woods at a time when otherwise you may not be out there and and all of

that's good just be realistic in your expectations that's the way I answer that

you've heard about T-Mobile 5G home internet mostly for how easy it is to set up and then the

value that you get well there's some more big news you should know about they now have the fastest

5G home internet speeds that's right T-Mobile now has the fastest 5G home internet according to

the experts at ukula speed test that makes backing up photos from your latest hunt streaming a new

documentary or pulling up a wild game recipe super quick and yeah it's a great value backed by a

solid five year price guarantee and setting it up is still as easy as it gets you just plug it in

so if you want the fastest 5G home internet with a simple setup at a great price with savings

that stick around get T-Mobile 5G home internet head over to t-mobile dot com slash home internet

to check availability price guarantee exclusions like taxes and fees apply fastest based on

ukula speed test intelligence data over the second half of 2025 all rights reserved attention fans

of jury duty the groundbreaking comedy series is back for season two featuring an all new cast

this installment takes the comedy out of the courthouse and into the mountains above malibu for

an annual company retreat the catch everyone but the new guys in actor oh yeah and the company's

gets to know all the employees of rock and grandma's hot sauce a family business with everything

on the line season two arrives with bigger laughs higher stakes and the same heart that made the

first season a cultural phenomenon and here's the fun part you'll be able to try all four flavors

of rock and grandma's hot sauce on amazon jury duty presents company retreat is now streaming on

prime video don't miss the feel good comedy everyone's going to be talking about

discover a spectacular island destination with crystal blue seas endless sunshine and the cool

Bahamian breeze baham are located in nasa bahamas offers your choice of three luxury hotels

over 45 fine dining in nightlife venues john batiste's all new jazz club the Caribbean's

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today on the habitat side i feel like this is one where there's a lot of tailwinds at least for

those people that own or lease land already for hunting because there's there's been so much

energy and education in managing habitat within the white tail world and improving habitat on these

lands and I'm curious if there is any conflict between the typical practices that are

discussed and recommended for white tail habitat management versus what's best for turkeys so

with the typical guy who's been trying to make his property better for deer hunting is that guy

helping turkeys to or do we need to consider some alternatives or adjusting our approach if we

really want to address the turkey issues too yeah in a lot of ways they're compatible you know

managing for deer and turkeys are compatible in in a lot of ways but not all and one fundamental

difference that that I think hunters need to understand is that you know white tails when they're

threatened they want to run a short distance and stop and hide and and so when as a deer hunter

we're thinking betting cover security cover juxtapose to foraging areas right we're we're thinking

okay I'm going I can catch this this buck coming from his betting area to the where he's going to

feed or we're thinking you know transitions between vegetative communities and so we're kind

of thinking like you know a deer but in the turkey world you have to understand

they need to see and then be able to run right and their last escape mechanism is flight

they don't really want to fly and the reason is very simple and we don't have to go into it but

turkeys are a big bird and they have a high amount of wing loading which means their wings are not

very proportionate to do body so they're not designed to fly they're designed to sail

um and so turkeys need to be able to see so if you're thinking about you know a forged plot

for instance and I I'm thinking as deer hunter but I want it thick right up to the edge right

because that Joker's going to pop out there and I'm he's right on me he's dead for a turkey

I want that bird to stand in that plot and be able to see up into the surrounding forest

and so what I encourage landowners that I interact with if you want both there are ways to do both

you just have to be very surgical and how you plant it so for instance if I'm looking at a

food plot that I've planted or a foraging area where I'm trying to attract deer and I want turkeys

to also kind of be attracted to it I'm managing at least one part of that for surrounding that

plot to be open right so birds can see and I'm trying to to get intel if you will on how are birds

accessing this plot where are they coming from where are they when they leave where do they go

and then I'm trying to set up a very surgical management scenario for literally every part

of that property so that I can optimize the attractiveness for white tails but also give my birds

the ability to see so so you mentioned this open hardwoods kind of habitat which which to your point

is is sometimes something that deer hunters don't want it looks nice but white tails don't always

love to spend a lot of time in it but what about nesting and pulsing habitat that's something that

you know seems like it's very important for turkey productivity as well can you help me understand

what that looks like and why that's important and how somebody might build crate that yeah I mean

nesting habitat is you know it's is variable and I'm not going to say it depends but it really does

I mean turkey's nest and all kinds of stuff right so if I took you to the 2000 nest that we've

you know that we've looked at over the last however many years from GPS mark birds you would kind of

as as a hunter outdoorsman you would at some point you go okay I see a little bit of commonality

from one spot to the next but not a lot and it's because hens are highly variable and how they

how they choose to put a nest at a particular spot and so some nester really thick and dense like you

would think white tail bedding cover but many nester in places that are wide open and and the common

theme seems to only be she thinks she's hidden when she's sitting right here that that's the common

theme and so my point is turkeys will nest in a in a wide array of different vegetative communities

but be thinking about it needs to be dense enough at ground level say knee and below that she can

hide in it right and and not be seen and it also needs to provide some overhead cover

so that aerial predators can't can't see her as well and that's kind of what we see most nest

are up against something a shrub a bush a log a stump something and there's some type of cover

around her that she feels she can hide in but when you get to brewed habitat it completely flip flops

the first couple of weeks there a few inches tall and they're hatching right they're tiny

they need bare ground they need overhead cover so if you think about places where you would walk

where you're kind of you're kind of pushing things at knee height out of your way

yet you're not tripping up on vegetation it's not a mat of grass on the ground you're walking freely

but you're just having to kind of brush some things aside that's kind of an early brewed cover

I'll tell I give people this analogy just lay down on your stomach and if you can see out in front

of you then they can't do right and then if you're if you hop up on a knee and you look around

if you can see then the hand can see as well so that that's early brewed cover looks completely

different than nesting cover like they're completely different but then what you start seeing is

when breads get older about the time you and I start seeing them right they're chicken size

they're out in fields the reason they're out in those fields and pastures and more open

grassland type areas is because they can fly and so once they get to that stage that's when

we start seeing them in open fields and and areas like that and at that point their survival is

much higher and and so my point is you literally go from I need to hide in plain sight to I need to see

right and then as I get two three weeks old now I can I can use a lot of different things

and so I'll go out in the open where I'm visible because I can use those vegetative communities

and escape risk because I can fly so there's there's all these different ways that we can

on an individual basis try to create this kind of habitat and the landscapes that we own or lease

or manage whatever might be is there anything broader more scalable like at a state level or

federal policy level or anything like that that could help us with this habitat side of the

challenge you know I don't know is there something in the farm bill that we if we could just get

this across the line or or anything else that at a broader scale could help with these habitat

challenges we have across Turkey habitat yeah I think you know from a and some of this this is

ongoing with other you know related to other species and or landscape types but you know farm

bill programs that provide financial incentives for landowners cost share type programs things

that are going to allow us to be able to implement changes and not have to cover all the cost

to be honest with you Mark I see a lot of a lot of the landowners that I interact with don't even

know that such things exist right and and so you'll go to some states and talk to local

whether it's natural resources conservation service or or other agencies you'll talk to their

staff and theirs in some cases very little interest in using cost share programs from landowners

in that area and of course you go to some areas and that's it's the reverse but I think continuing to

explore options that incentivize us to manage our properties wisely and to implement practices

that are going to ensure early successful vegetation communities early succession that you know

Turkey's their ability to see means that there's early successful habitat there and so

anything that's going to incentivize us to to manage our properties in ways that that sustain

early successful vegetation I think are are going to be critical to the future of this bird and

many many other species that thrive in those same those same habitat types yeah I want to kind of

take that and then circle back to somewhere towards the beginning where we started habitat in many

ways regulates the potential productivity for a population of animals right and I've heard you

make comments somewhat to the effect of the fact that in some places it's sometimes we might be

hunting with a either set of regulations or with an effectiveness because of our technology or

whatever might be that might be above and beyond what habitat can support today is that is that an

accurate representation of how you feel and your concerns about this kind of third leg of the stool

if habitat and predation are these two big ones I think you mentioned harvest being that third major

leg can you expand on that a little bit yeah I would just say you know the relative impact that

harvest would have on a population obviously is going to vary from spot to spot county to county

state state etc um I think as in the turkey world you have to recognize that turkeys are very unique

in that we hunt them during their breeding season in the game bird world that is not the the norm

so if you would think about it let's say as a waterfowl hunter if I told you to go to the prairies and

hunt mallards in May right that that would be the analogy you wouldn't even consider doing that so

you just have to understand that we are hunting wild turkeys in the spring while they're breeding

and in many cases early in their breeding period and throughout their entire breeding period depending

on the the state that you're in and some states you can start hunting in early breeding and hunt

the entire breeding season you know so the season encompasses the entire breeding season and because

of that you know we've known for many decades that harvest for this bird matters right the timing

and rate of harvest matters at a very low rate like you're killing a really small percentage of your

males made probably doesn't matter when you kill the bird but if you're going into a population

and taking out a significant percentage of your males every year and you're doing that early in

the breeding period then logically at some point as populations decline it doesn't to me doesn't

seem logical to think that you can continue to do that if you're producing fewer birds then you're

going to have to take fewer birds and and that's like we were talking about earlier with the harvest

in many states declining the way it has that you know that that shows me that we have you know

we have an issue when our harvest is declining by 50 plus percent and something you and I talked

about before we started is you know okay what do we what do we look like 10 years from now 20

years from now 50 years from now and and I when I look at North America and I see

the world through my lens which is a turkey hunter and a scientist and I'm trying to think about

what what the future looks like for me we just can't produce the number of turkeys that we use

to produce and we're never going to produce the number of birds that we did 20 years ago and the

reason for that irrespective of harvest or any seasons or bag limits or anything the landscape

in North America in many areas just can't it can't produce that many birds um and the reason is

like all these things we've talked about I mean all the the changes to habitat and and everything

that's ongoing competing land uses in North America are incredible and if you're traveling turkey

hunter and you go places like for instance Florida go to Florida and look at what is happening in

the state of Florida literally that state is imploding on itself it from from coast to coast

towards the center um it's imploding on itself and if you're a while turkey living in in Florida

a local population you're not going to be able to function the same as you did 20 years ago that's

I mean that should be to me as common sense that if you've got a shrinking land base

then turkey populations are not going to be able to sustain themselves at the levels that they

did and so is that going to require us to change the way we behave as hunters I think logically the

answers yes over the last five years or so give or take there has been a tremendous amount of

conversation around that question of how does how does our behavior as hunters need to change

how should regulations possibly change or season timing or length change or uh you know practices

like reaping or using certain kinds of loads or whatever it might be there's there's all sorts of

kind of internal discussion around this within the turkey hunting community what of all of these

possible changes that have been debated and discussed it you know in bars and on message boards

and everywhere what actually could make a difference in which of these things are just you know

verbal sparring that really maybe aren't actually impactful yeah I mean if you if you kind of

look at this from the standpoint of of the state agencies and I'm not speaking on their behalf I'm

simply explaining to the listener how regulations work agencies are going to be very reticent to

try to you know trying to change the ammunition we shoot or those types of things that's just that

that's not going to sell right you you have some states that have that have prohibited you know

certain practices like fanning or reaping or the use of decoys or whatever the case may be

at the end of the day none of that matters unless it impacts the timing and rate of harvest

okay and what I mean by that is if you change something and it doesn't change the percentage of

males that are removed and when they're removed then why who cares right that's what agencies are

trying to influence they're trying to influence when birds are shot and what percentage are shot

under the recognition that they're trying to minimize in some state trying to minimize

extensive intensive early harvest okay and the reason they're trying to do that is just this

recognition which we know most turkeys are going to die the first couple weeks of the season

um in many states regardless of when the season opens and that's because right we're engaging with birds

they're not educated as well we harvest whatever we're going to harvest and then as the season

progresses harvest you know declines dramatically and then by the time it gets warm in some places or

your kids start playing ball or you start fishing or whatever it is we don't pay attention anymore

and so what agencies are trying to control is when the bird is dying and what percentages die

what they're going to change to do that is they're going to try to regulate bag limits they're

going to try to regulate the timing of the season and they're going to limit opportunity right they're

going to they're trying to change our opportunity to be out there because opportunity kills if you

give turkey hunters more opportunity they're going to be successful and so whether you like it or

love it uh and i don't think any of us like being told we can't we can't do something the way that

we're used to doing it but whether you like it or not that's what they're trying to do they're

trying they're trying to change the one thing they can control at a at a state level they're trying

to change that in hopes that it will mitigate some of these issues that that have been observed in

some states and so that's that's why you see that the changes to regulations and maybe not some

of the other things that are at practice so to the turkey hunter who sees their state possibly

change those season dates or bag limits or something and they're ticked off about it

what do you what do you say to that guy or girl um whether it be about the value of making that

change or the efficacy of that change um well how would you respond when when bill or or

batty says this is bulk shit i'm not doing this or this is ridiculous yeah

the first thing i say is i i want a thousand percent get it like i understand i mean regulations

changes are contentious um again i i don't want you to tell me that the last ten years i've been

doing this thing that that i live to do all year and now all suddenly i have to do it differently

and i don't want you to tell me that you know i'm used to starting this thing that i cherish on

this date and now suddenly i have to stop doing i have to do it a week later or two weeks later

whatever it is i don't like it i so i get that the the other thing that i think creates real challenges

for us hunters is that states make these changes and you have to understand that there are

that these changes in many ways end up being politically driven and not framed around biology

and i'll give you an example a hypothetical that you can apply to many states the state wildlife

the biological staff will make a recommendation to the commission for instance in a particular state

and say we recommend based on the science that the season open here that the bag limits be this

to et cetera okay they then they make that change but they don't they can't enact that change that

the the regulation that ends up being put into place is then going to be tweaked in the political

process and so what comes out the other end in many cases is not what was recommended specifically

by the biological staff it's some derivation of that right and so my point there to the listener is

just because a change was made should not cause you to think that that change is going to have

an effect at a population level okay so for example a state delays their season opener for a

week i'm just creating i'm just giving you a scenario by week and they reduce a bag limit by one

bird okay the hunter in us goes well see nothing's happened that shit didn't work let's go back to

where we were but what you have to understand is the season may have opened three weeks before

peaks and breeding activity right so the the one week delay was just window dressing and

85% of hunters in that state i'm just again just hypothetical number don't kill the full bag limit

okay so reducing the bag by one let's just say saved 500 birds in a state

and the one week delay shifted the harvest from three weeks before peaks and breeding to two weeks

before peaks and breeding but like i've already said which i the data show this clearly in most

states but most of your times that are going to die are still dead in that scenario before

you reach peaks and breeding so would you expect that to matter and and to me the answers

no i wouldn't expect it to matter and and that you know that creates real challenges for us as

hunters and as academics because it's like you know the hunter and us was well what did it help

did that matter and if the answers well not really then well then let's go back to the way we were

but you if you put your state agency glasses on and they go well wait a minute we're charged legally

with ensuring sustainability of these populations we're we're we're trying to do something that's

going to mitigate these ongoing declines and so it it puts us as hunters in kind of a conflict with

the agencies because they're making a change we expect something to happen it doesn't happen

and now we're even more skeptical of of any management action really and so to your original question

when that when Bill brings that up the first thing i say is i totally understand a thousand percent

understand but you would also or would you also ask him to have a little bit of understanding for

what they're trying to do and hoping they can achieve is that kind of follow yeah and also think

and this is this is me speaking as Mike the turkey hunter and Mike the person that that interacts with

state agency administrators commissioners and biological staff i think we as hunters are going to

have to give state agencies enough social license to make changes and be patient to see if those

changes have any influence on the population because that is what agencies are going to try to

control harvest that's the lever they're going to pull whether we like it or not because we can

we can scream in a state agency all day long do something about the habitat do something about

the predators the scale at which state agencies are thinking about turkeys is not in on your farm

they're thinking about it at a statewide level and so they're trying to enact things that are going

to have potential to influence at that scale okay and so i understand the frustration is saying

well do something about habitat but you have to understand that state agencies don't control

most habitat in any state so at the end of the day something we talked about earlier is

private landowners and our our willingness to consider ways that we can implement practices that

can benefit the wild turkey that's going to be key to the future of the bird because agencies are

going through time are going to continue to make changes for i mean if populations respond

you'll see seasons liberalized again but in the face of ongoing declines what you're seeing is

agencies controlling what they what they can at that at that scale

you've heard about t-mobile 5g home internet mostly for how easy it is to set up and then the value

that you get well there's some more big news you should know about they now have the fastest

5g home internet speeds that's right t-mobile now has the fastest 5g home internet according to

the experts at ukula speed test that makes backing up photos from your latest hunt streaming a new

documentary or pulling up a wild game recipe super quick and yeah it's a great value back by a

solid five year price guarantee and setting it up is still as easy as it gets you just plug it in

and go so if you want the fastest 5g home internet with a simple setup at a great price with savings

that stick around get t-mobile 5g home internet head over to t-mobile dot com slash home internet

to check availability price guarantee exclusions like taxes and fees apply fastest based on ukula speed

test intelligence data over the second half of 2025 all rights reserved attention fans of jury

the groundbreaking comedy series is back for season two featuring an all new cast this

installment takes the comedy out of the courthouse and into the mountains above Malibu for an annual

company retreat the catch everyone but the new guys in actor oh yeah and the company's fake

gets to know all the employees of rock and grandma's hot sauce a family business with everything

on the line season two arrives with bigger laughs higher stakes and the same heart that made the

first season a cultural phenomenon and here's the fun part you'll be able to try all four

flavors of rock and grandma's hot sauce on Amazon jury duty presents company retreat is now streaming

on prime video don't miss the feel good comedy everyone's going to be talking about

discover a spectacular island destination with crystal blue seas endless sunshine and the cool

bohemian breeze bahan mar located in nasa bahanas offers your choice of three luxury hotels

over 45 fine dining and nightlife venues john batiste all new jazz club the Caribbean's most

luxurious casino and one of the kind experiences for the entire family like our 15 acre tropical

water park wildlife sanctuary world-class golf course and so much more visit bahanmar dot com

today a little thought exercise here imagine that you stumble into an amazing windfall of power

and you all the sudden control the management of turkeys across the entire of the United States

and you have full rain to adjust regulations season length bag limit season timing anything like

that and I let I guess it's narrow down level we'll say we'll pick a state in any one given state

you have the ability to adjust that regulatory framework in any way you possibly would like to

I would like to know number one what how would you change hypothetical structure of these regulations

if we're in one of those these states where declines are underway so I'd like to understand

what's the ideal as best as you can think of and then number two as an individual

what would you do to reflect to these changes to best you know account for the fact that these

declines are happening so what would you say as an individual you would do to adjust your hunting

practices or strategies or approaches or or personal limits you might place on yourself given

those realities yes so for the first question I would just I would just rely on the science and

that there have been multiple documents scientific documents written about this topic offering

recommendations some of those authored by state agency biologists themselves noting that

the most conservative season framework for wild turkeys would be to open the season

timed around peaks and nest incubation meaning a large percentage of your hands are sitting on nest

and at that point are not receptive to breeding anymore so there's some percentage of

tombs that could be removed right a less conservative but also biologically appropriate season

would be to open at peaks and laying activity and the reason for that would be a lot of your hands

are starting to lay clutches and so they are well along in the breeding process

why is that less conservative well there's a lot of breeding that also occurs during the laying period

so hands are continuing to copulate with tombs during while they're laying eggs and there's a lot

of competition at that time which is why you see gobbling activity often peaks when you have the

peak in laying activity because there's a lot of competition right then tombs recognize if you

think about it from their perspective the hands are leaving them every day for some period of time

going to a nest laying an egg so they're they're not available all the time and tombs are sensing

that they're sensing that hands are starting to break up they're leaving she's not always around me

and so there's a lot of competition okay so if I were if I were in the position you

gave me in the first question I would time the season around one of those two periods depending on

when exactly that occurs in a given area and what harvest would look like in general so in other

words if you have if I had data available to me and I knew what harvest rates look like if you

were in a situation where hunting activity is not very it's not super high in a particular state

then you could probably support a little bit earlier harvest say peaks in laying but if I were

in a state where my population has declined by 50 percent plus and it is continuing to decline

then I would try to frame the season in a way where a lot of the breeding activity has already

occurred by the time I start removing birds and I in the other thing I would do which this is

but you're giving me a scenario that would be cool you know unfortunately the way our regulations

work and I say all right I don't I don't set regulations so but I'm telling you the reality it's

it takes years so right an agency recommends a change it's it can take years for that change to occur

and then it can't like that it's not an iterative type adaptive process in a lot of situation so it's

not like let's see what nesting season looks like this year and let's make an immediate change to

the season next train right that doesn't happen so we are making changes that are going to occur

down the road and then we're continuing to collect information it may be another set of years before

another change is implemented although the discussion surrounding that change started years

earlier and I'll give you an example regulations changes made in and I won't name the state but

a southeastern state there were regular there were changes being discussed in an agency

a full 11 years before they were implemented and so it's very common for agencies to have these

conversations and then it take years to to make the change the the second question what

this is just me I mean as an individual hunter I'm trying to assess what the population looks like

on you know in the areas that I'm hunting and and I'm just I'm using my my intel and my own

observations to dictate how I behave if that if that requires me to take fewer birds off of a particular

property then I do it if it involves me not taking any birds off of a property I have a property

right near my house and I went 14 years from when I you know till I shot a bird last year and it

was because I just could not justify killing a bird on that property given the abundance in

the local area but through years of management not just on this property but the surrounding

neighborhood our population now has has come back and and looks decent you know and so I felt

comfortable shooting a bird there last year so as a as an individual hunter I'm just kind of I'm

trying to think through each year in the places I go you know if I have history there then I I

kind of know what the population is trending and I'm going to adjust my behavior accordingly and

and if that involves taking fewer birds in certain places then that's what that's what I'll do

in the last five years or so where there's been and tell me if you think I'm wrong on this kind of

broad strokes assessment here but but give or take the last five years or so this has become a

little bit more of a popularly discussed topic have we made any progress has anything positive

happened in the last five years or so since this conversations become more public and turkey

hunters seem to be realizing that oh the the golden days maybe are are not here anymore we're

entering a new era has has anything turned around have we seen any changes in either

hunter activities or regulations anywhere or or habitat or anything that makes you think like oh

we sounded the alarm on some of this stuff and we're actually seeing some positive shifts occurring

a lot yeah 100% yeah I think in the last six years since covid that's when it that's when it started

to shift in my my opinion is that spring first of all we were stuck second we were told like in

many like in my case I had to cancel multiple trips to go out of state we couldn't interact with

each other we had nothing to do we were we were concerned with what was going on and we started

communicating with each other through social media and I think a lot of people in in the turkey

hunting world started listening to podcasts and having conversations and they started

one potentially seeing that a problem existed somewhere and they weren't aware of it or

they started hearing other people say the same thing they were seeing and they were like oh

shit okay that not just me and and they started having more conversations and they started

becoming educated about what other people were experiencing they started sharing perspectives

sometimes heatedly right and that's okay and I think you started seeing this upswell of

of kind of attention focused around turkeys and ongoing declines which you know I we had been

talking about since 2015 that was when we first published some of the work showing regional declines

in the south and and fast forward six years and yeah I think there's been a tremendous change

in I think a lot of people are having these conversations like we're having right now where

wherein there's recognition that that we may need to change things we're doing whether it's

its management whether it'd be our own behavior I think a lot of turkey hunters now

understand that they can be part of the solution in many cases and they can be part of the

the future and they want they see true value in that and that's awesome and so I think

if I look now at the conversations that I have they are comparatively way different than they

were in 2019 way different and I think that's good and that that tells me the future of the bird

there's a future there because turkey hunters are going to be I mean we we are the ones

that are going to be the future right our willingness and our passion to buy hunting licenses

to to purchase the things that we we're talking about to spend our money and our time focused

on hunting this bird and supporting conservation of the bird we are the future of this bird

period and so like our earlier discussions about students and you know who populates our agencies

and how do we incentivize landowners to to manage how to have for turkeys and how do we ensure

cost share programs and farm bills that are going to target management turkey hunters are going

to be front and center of that because turkey hunters are the ones that value most value the wild turkey

and most want to see this bird on our landscapes in the future so the future of the turkey starts

with us so with that being the case paint for me two pictures this will be this will be the last

thing I ask of you and it's a doozy but paint me a picture of a world 20 years from now I want

to imagine my youngest son will be 26 my oldest son will be 28 adults on their own hopefully

avid turkey hunters maybe they're starting their own young families at that point possibly

in that world that I'm hoping for and imagining for my kids

paint for a picture of first a worst case scenario what that would look like and what would have

to happen for that to come to be and then a best case scenario 20 years from now what the best

case could possibly be for turkeys and turkey hunting and what would have had to happen for that

to come to life damn that is a doozy oh I almost don't even want to ponder the worst case scenarios

you know honestly and I'm not trying to skirt your answer but um I think I'm going to stick

those two scenarios into what I think is going to be the future great um I think what you're going

to be looking at is a world where there there is a lot of demand for a shrinking supply

and basic math and laws of economics are going to tell you that your opportunity to to be part of

consuming this bird right through through harvest is going to change as the future progresses

and so the world that I think we're going to live in a few decades from now I think you're going

to see a continued use of quota systems by state agencies I think you're going to see

situations where harvest is going to be increasingly more limited on public lands because that's

the the properties that agencies can control I think you're going to continue to see at least for

the foreseeable future situations where states are going to try to regulate non-resident access

because non-resident hunters kill a lot of turkeys and I'm part of that problem myself you know

my calendar is full of go every spring because I love to do that and so I see that and so I see

your kids hunting in a world where activity and opportunity is going to in some cases be limited

because of the availability of the resource um I also think you're you're going to continue to

see situations where competing land use essentially causes turkeys to to disappear from parts of

the landscape and so our collective populations inevitably are going to have to decline

particularly in local areas and in some places I think you you may actually see the reverse you

may see populations respond like we talked about very early on and and and start to do much better

but across the birds range I think you're going to be looking at situations where

pockets of turkeys that are existing now will not exist in 20 years and and so what that's going

to cause is a shrinking land base right that contains turkeys and that's going to put more

attention on the dwindling supply of turkeys which again is going to prompt agencies to to change how

we're able to to pursue the bird and that's just the that's the reality answer if you know whether

you like it or not I think that's that's where we're headed with not just turkeys many many

game species as you know if you go out west you know I mean the big game world you know

preference points rules the world you know in many states and that could we be in a situation

where we're applying for preference points to hunt turkeys I don't I don't think that's far fetched

all right tools doesn't mean my last question but I'm going to ask one more now

give me one reason for hope on this front what's one thing that encourages you that hey you know what

while all those things are possible and and maybe even likely there there's some silver lining

there's some avenues for for moving things in a more positive direction because I do think that one

thing about the hunting conservation community that has always almost always been true has that

it has been that while we have faced serious challenges in the past very often unique within

the broader environmental or conservation community we've always been a very much let's pull

on the gloves and get to work you know we we haven't been the group that just moans and bitches

about how things are all going to help but instead we've actually been quite hands on and say all

right well I'm gonna do something about it that's something the hunters and anglers have always

done a pretty darn good job of the last hundred and twenty some years so yeah so with that in mind

give me something to be hopeful about that's an easy one to answer turkey hunters interacting

with turkey hunters I see you know it doesn't matter if you you can get on social media and find

somebody that that hates on this or hates on that or that it doesn't matter because every turkey

hunter at their core wants the same thing we want to be able to hunt turkeys in the future

and we want our kids and our grandkids to be able to hunt turkeys we all at our heart want

the same so that's what tells me there's hope because there there's a turkey hunting community that

is fanatical about this bird turkey hunters I'll say this I've said it hundreds of times are

just different they're just different people they are cerebral and they have a passion that is

borders fanatical right and so you have people that are that vested in this bird that they that

it consumes their year it consumes how they behave it consumes who they are as a person it's their

fabric that is what gives me hope because like you've said we've done this before we've faced

existential crisis which we're not there with turkeys now but we've faced situations where

we didn't have turkeys and we put our innovative caps on and we figured out a way to make it happen

and now we've gotten a little behind and and our populations have declined and now we have to

figure out how to reverse the ship understanding that like we talked about there's all these challenges

and faced things we're going to have to face and hoops we're going to have to jump through okay let's

just jump through them let's figure it out let's let's put our innovative caps back on be willing

to give a little bit and figure out what the future for this bird looks like and then be part of it

and that's that that gives me hope and that starts with turkey hunters yeah yeah I 100% believe

that's possible and I have to I have to thank you and give you give you credit for helping a lot of

people start that journey the work you've done the research the broader communication effort

that you've led over the last half you know however many years you've been you know really been

in the public eye it's been tremendous and it's making a difference so first thank you and secondly if

there's people out there listening who want to dive deeper into this who want to start engaging more

in understanding what's going on with turkeys and and and all the many many different things that you

share could you tell folks about the wild turkey lab and and other platforms or places where they

can connect with you or or the information that you're sharing with the world yeah sure yeah so I

have a website wildturkeylab.com that is kind of a clearinghouse for the the the work I've done all

of the the research articles that that we've published are there posted with a summary of what what

we did what we found and why you should care you know if you don't feel like reading the entire

paper all of the social media post I've ever done or archive there a bunch of the podcasts that

I've done or archive there so you can find all of that material if you're on social media if you're

on Facebook if you just type my name and you'll you'll see my account I post on Facebook Instagram

and x every week if you're on Instagram or x it's wild turkey doc wild turkey d.o.c one word

pretty much the same content within reason on on all of those platforms although I tend to post

more on Instagram than I do on the others because I share some personal stuff there but

and lastly if you're interested in we launched a huge nationwide genetics project last spring

called wild turkey d and a and that's a project that's really starting to expand this spring and

we're we're super excited about it if you go to wildturkey d and a.com you can see that that stuff

there and and we also have socials wild turkey d and a is on all three of those platforms that

I mentioned previously so yeah if you're interested in any of that stuff check it out and

and thank you for for being interested enough to go to those pages and take a look yeah it's great

stuff you've been a wealth of information for so many people and I'm appreciative of that and

I really appreciate taking the time today to talk turkey while some of this you know is a little

bit a little bit discouraging when you dive into it there's also a whole lot to be excited about

turkey season kicking off in a lot of parts of the country and like you said turkey hunting

is is a is a thing to celebrate and it's a thing to get us off our tails and work for these birds too

and so I think you know let's get out there let's have an amazing season let's enjoy it and let's

let that kind of refill our reservoir with energy to go and do some of these good things to keep

it around for many many generations to come right I completely agree get out there and spend some

time in the woods in the presence of this bird and let it recharge your engines and then

get to work you know when the summer when the summer gets here don't stop thinking about

turkeys and slow down take a breath man and spring goes by really quick and it it ends so quickly

for me every year and then I have to live all year to to get back slow down and soak it in

so true all right thank you Mike yeah man

all right and that's gonna do it for us today thanks for joining me thanks to tuning in

this one good luck on your future turkey hunts and until next time stay wired to hunt

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