Ep. 1175: Solo Adventures for Women with Lisa Michelle

You're listening to the Adventure Sports Podcast. We talk with adventures from around

the globe to give you the inspiration you need to get started in the outdoors or keep

moving if you're already there. Now here's your host, Kurt Lindville.

Nature inspires. It can provide us with the space we need to process to discover, to

feel. That's a lot of what this episode is about. In addition to the idea of women solo

adventuring, it has a lot to do with discovery, discovery that nature allows. And it was a

joy to talk with Lisa about her books and her experiences in nature and all that. But

I think that perhaps the takeaway from this one really is that nature inspires, nature

heals. And on some level, I think we're made for it. It's our home. It's where we came

from. Thanks Lisa for sharing your heart and for sharing amazing stories about the impacts

that nature can have. Hi friends, welcome to the Adventure Sports Podcast today. I'm excited

about this interview because Lisa Michelle is an adventurer. But she uses nature and experiences

that she has in nature and lessons learned from nature to inform her writing. And she's

written both fiction and nonfiction. She's a best selling psychological thriller author,

which is fantastic. But she's also written a book called True Nature, Hidden in the High

Sierra. But she is a snowboarder. She likes fly fishing, long solo hikes. And here's something

interesting that we're going to dive into. She wants to talk about the value of women doing solo

adventure and that that holds some special magic. And I want to know what that is. So Lisa,

welcome to the Adventure Sports Podcast. Hi Kurt. Thank you for having me in. I look forward

to our conversation. Before we hit record here, we got started and we should have hit record

way before we did because we're having so much fun. And that's what's so fun about Adventure,

I think, is that we already have things in common. From the get go, I also wrote a book,

my sister is an author, you're an author. I love interviewing authors because you guys know how

to talk. That is really a great thing. So anyway, let's get the backstory. Where are you now?

I am at my little office slash guest bedroom in just below Kirkwood, California, outside of Tahoe.

Okay, outside of Tahoe. He's southeast. Exactly the opposite. Yes, of truck. Just the opposite from

trucky. Yes. Well, what an amazing place. Yeah, it's usually pretty good this time of year,

but we're still waiting for snow. It's been pretty slow here. We've we've got nothing. In fact,

I haven't even been snowboarding yet this year. And Facebook keeps reminding me through the

memories. How much snow we've had in the previous years. And it was just amazing. And yeah, you

would take it for granted anymore. Well, Tahoe is known for some of the biggest snowfalls and

snow seasons of any resort. I mean, that's amazing. I've not been up yet. I've not been

to press a but is our local mountain. And I've not been up yet. They're open. And you know,

they have several runs open and that kind of stuff. But right now it's a lot of machine snow.

And there's some natural snow too. But it's early in the season. I get a little spoiled Lisa

to be honest. I I think of ski season in this February. It's becoming that for me too. I just get

so anxious. You know, you get all my stuff out. And this year, I bought a new board with some

book money. So I just. So I'm dying to get it out. But then again, I don't want to get it out

too early and hit all the rocks and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I'm I'm ready. I am so ready.

I may come to Colorado if it doesn't happen soon. Yes. Well, I think Colorado is kind of off to

an average start this year. We've had we've had better early season years. We've had worse early

season years. So it's game on. People are enjoying themselves already. So I see I see all the fun

stuff going on over there and the avalanches to you guys were getting. Oh man, avalanches are

crazy in our valley. But they haven't been this season yet. But it does happen. You use what you

learn from nature to inform your books. I want to dive in right there. How has adventure and connecting

with nature helped you as an author. So many ways. Just getting from the most minute detail.

And using senses, you're an author, you understand the senses, the feeling that you get in being in

nature. And it also my thrillers always have some sort of outdoor adventure type of situation,

whether it's intended or not, they end up there somehow. So I think that might be a subconscious

thing. But you know, I started out years ago, freelancing in Round Tahoe writing all the outdoor

adventure stuff. And we weren't allowed to, you know, they just wanted the facts only. Yeah.

So do this. It's fun. Here's where it's at. And so it was really great to revisit some of those

hidden gems and be able to figure out by the writing process how much each of those places in nature

changed my life overall. So many ways from the simplest thing like confidence being becoming

confident. It's the process. It doesn't just happen or it doesn't. It's an absolute intended

process. And that informs everything. That informs your writing. That helped with having enough

confidence to go try something completely different. Nothing to do with being outdoors or in nature

or adventure. But being brave enough to do just simplest everyday things or the most difficult

everyday type of things that you don't want to do. But you're like, oh, well, I did this other

thing and I can do this. You know, I've heard that many times I couldn't agree more. That's what

challenging ourselves is about. Despite it's a lot of finding out what we are capable of doing.

And that enlarges our lives. Yeah. And I think for women, I obviously cannot speak for all women,

myself, quite a few of my friends and some of my family. Just pushing yourself, you know,

it's all relative. If you're the type of person that hasn't been outdoors a lot,

but you feel somehow that pull that you want to try something, whether it be go for a bike ride,

a hike, go fly fishing, go skiing, take a lesson, to the more extreme type of adventures.

It's all subjective and it all builds confidence. You know, even in the failure listening to your

epic bill podcast, even in the failures, man, I think the failures even make it better when you

finally do accomplish what it is you've set out. It makes it that much sweeter.

You know, what I loved about epic bill is that he would call, I didn't finish the 265 mile race.

So I failed. I'm like, no, you didn't. You stopped at a mile 200 or something. You know,

it's like, wow. I mean, how did you not crawl or something? You so, you had so much strength,

inner strength, you know, and mental fortitude just come on. Well, but I think everybody finds

a little bit more of that fortitude when they go out and try things. And you never know what you're

capable of doing. No. And sometimes that's when you're pushed to your limits. That is when you

when you find out what you are capable of doing nothing to do with any of the adventures in the book.

But I did the Inca Trail years ago in Peru and the night before I left, I got the bad stomach. Well,

you can imagine how terrible hiking, you know, you're I cannot remember all the elevation

game, but it's it's quite difficult. And you're carrying your own stuff with the bad stomach. And I

thought, you have a choice before you start to either. Yeah, or go because once you're in, you're

in, you know, and my friend was like, if you want to go home, you, I understand it's okay. And I

had spent all my money. I took everything out of my savings to do this trip. And I thought if I

die on this trail, I die on this trail because I am not wasting. I think it was back then. It was

probably close to $4,000, which that was a lot of money for me back then, especially. And I remember

just thinking, there's no way I can do this, but one step at a time, one step at a time and one

bathroom break at a time. I mean, you got to understand. It was the best of times. It was the worst

of times. But once I was done, I thought, Oh, my God, I just hiked the ink of trail with the bad

stomach. It's hard enough with the good stomach. Right, right. And to be able to do that, I look back

and I mean, I guarantee you, I felt like I could do anything. Oh, that's that's amazing. Let's dive

into the subject of women's solo adventures. And I think that piggybacks off of this a little bit.

Why solo? You know, I've thought about this a lot because I've done a lot of solo and I've

done a lot of hiking or adventure type stuff, travel with a friend or friends. I tend to lean

more towards solo. The psychological aspect of going with friends of being more sociable is

probably everyone's first choice. But sometimes it just comes down to logistics. You can't get

someone to go with you. They can't take time off work or whatever reason. You end up saying,

OK, I'm just going to go. And then for me, I get so much more out of it. I don't know if it's more

your when you're alone, you're so in tune with what's going on around you, be it nature, be it

interaction with just a random person that you meet on the trail. When you're with think of your

hiking adventures or any sort of adventure, you run into someone when you're both alone.

You tend to gravitate towards each other. And I mean, who hasn't on the ski lift made those five

minute best friends? Like you start spewing things you would you would never tell it's stranger,

but you start telling these people things that you're going, oh my god, why did I just say that?

But I think it just opens you up. You feel more vulnerable. And I think people sense that I know I've

done some surf travel alone, which at times can be really scary, especially when you're out there

at a surf break by yourself. You can feel either like, oh, this is so amazing. I'm out here in the

ocean by myself. Or there's times my mind has switched to, oh my god, I'm in the ocean out here

by myself. Right. And I don't know. This doesn't feel good for whatever reason. I think I'm going to

paddle in. I don't, some things making me really uncomfortable. But that being said, it's how you

approach it. And I think it just gives women or men, even whoever, so much more self worth

that they are capable of taking care of themself, being able to just pick up and go somewhere not

have to wait for everyone else's schedule feels freeing. And there's time for you to your brain,

I think, to just, it's almost like a form of meditation. If anybody's done some long distance

hikes, they know exactly, they know exactly because you're not that, you're not having that back

in fourth conversation. Or you're not trying to think of something to say to fill the awkward

silence. Or, you know, if you've read the book, is my friend really pissed at me right now?

Because you just, you're in your own head or you're out of your own head. Just it's just, to me,

it's very spiritual. You know, that's kind of crazy. Let's stick with a solo for just a second.

I have a, I want to talk about being a female adventurer solo as well. But I'm an extrovert. And

solo adventure has been actually a big part of my life. But never by choice. For me, it was always

well. There's no one else that'll go. So I'm just going right because I don't, I don't seek

the alone time. And I have friends who do seek the alone time. They, they feed on it. They thrive

with it. They love it. And for me, when I'm out there and something amazing happens, I'm like,

oh, there's no one to share it with because that's just the way my mind works. I spend all my time

thinking about my kids at home or my wife at home and say, oh, man, I wish they were here. Oh,

I do that too. I mean, don't get me wrong. There is that, I do think that exact thing, for sure.

And that's when I'm like filming everything or taking pictures of everything. And,

and I worked as a freelance writer for a lot of years about outdoor adventure travel. And so

I'm very used to taking notes as I'm filming. What I'm seeing, what I'm smelling, what I'm hearing,

you know, just all that you don't remember to include. But you get my narration along with the

filming. But I do. I understand, you know, there's both sides of it. There's pros and cons.

You know, Lisa, what I started doing, I actually made a YouTube channel. I call it gunny moto.

And the reason is, because I'm writing my motorcycle around Gunnison County in the in the

Colorado Rockies here. And we have over 3,000 miles of off-road riding. So it's crazy. If you

strung together all of the twin track, you know, off-road twin track in Gunnison County, it would go

coast to coast across America. I mean, you think about that. It's mind blowing. A few people

know that. But I thought, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go explore it. I want to see all that. So

I started just taking a GoPro with me so that I could share it if people were interested.

No intention of turning it into anything, you know. But here's the reason I bring it up.

If I take the GoPro, I feel like all my friends are with me. And I ramble on and people probably

hate listening to me because I'm just talking about this, talking about that. Ooh, look at this,

you know, or there's this geology or there's this history or there's, you know, this philosophical.

But I feel like I've taken everyone with me on the ride. And when I leave the GoPro at home,

I feel completely alone. And I'm alone in both cases. Right, right. There is that aspect of it,

for sure, because I can see, you know, I can't wait to get home and show this to my grandson.

I mean, you know, I want to hike 15 miles. Gary Shorty founds on his back.

Well, it's, it's very interesting to me. And now, here's something that I'm just going to say

it out loud and on purpose. Okay. People when we talk about women and adventure, especially

solo adventure, we always kind of dance around the subject because you don't want to say,

well, women alone, that's something. And I try hard never to say that because I believe in

the empowerment of telling everybody, irregardless of their gender, whatever, that they can do it.

They can go. They can enjoy it. They can. And so I never want to be the person who says,

oh, women shouldn't travel alone, for instance. I think that's a ridiculous mindset.

But I'm going to throw it out there. So it's on the table. Some women say that.

Oh, absolutely. Well, it's a fact. I mean, let's not down-surrounded. It is an absolute fact.

Can I be blunt? Men don't have to worry about, typically, men don't have to worry about being

assaulted, raped. You know, it's a real concern. I have been in one situation. I think

that should not be enough of a reason for you to not go. Unless you're dealing with some

former abuse or something where you might need a little more security, you should go with a

friend. You shouldn't go alone, especially, you know, for a while. Or minus the national parks.

I did one hike. I think it was only two nights. Have you heard of the lost coast in California?

It's up in Northern California, Hong Kong County. It's a very beautiful place, but it's a very

sketchy place, which I didn't realize until I had gotten up there and started hearing the horror

stories. But I did. I took a gun with me, a very small little gun. And now that will start the

pot, you know, people don't like that. I think that's more controversial than women going alone,

whether and I'll tell you what, I had a very uncomfortable situation with three gentlemen.

And I was grateful to have that gun. You know, you can't predict the future. But you can at least

be somewhat prepared, whether it be bear spray, pepper spray, can no longer take bear spray in

you somebody, which I find absolutely incredibly ridiculous. Because that was more of my go-to,

not for the bears. I have lots of bear experience, but never been a problem other than

a few face-licking bears and a very tight trail situation. But it's just typically, I think,

most of the time for myself and people that I have taken out and that end up doing solo stuff,

women, especially. It is absolutely a process and it is to be expected to be scared. But

you know, it shouldn't be enough to stop you. I think you're, you know, if you do the statistics,

it's like you're probably safer out there alone in the wilderness than you are walking across

the parking lot at Walmart or heck nowadays, even just, you know, going watch the news. It's

terrible. Well, the crazy thing is, I'm glad you brought up the news. Everyone knows this,

but the news focuses on if it bleeds, it reads, you know, they just want to scare people and the world's

not like that. If you're only windowed to the world is what the nightly news is giving you,

then you need a new window. I'm just going to be blunt. It's all lies. I mean, bad things do

happen, but they're rare and it doesn't mean it's going to happen to you. And I have interviewed Lisa

so many solo backpackers who are women, motorcycle travelers who've been around the world as women.

One of our very first interviews 10 years ago was Yolanda Rust who did a solo trip around Africa.

And I just find it so inspiring and empowering. And I want everyone to know just exactly what you said.

Caution is warranted, but don't let us stop you. Absolutely. I just rambled a little bit about it,

but yes, that's the bottom line. Absolutely. Well, I think it's such a wonderful thing when

people get past the stereotypes and they follow their heart. Yeah. And if you're a dude and you

see a woman out there out there solar, how you just say, Hey, how's it going? Please don't tell her,

what are you doing out here all by yourself? Don't be that guy. I don't be that guy.

Well, good on you for doing it. And you already mentioned that by going solo, you become more aware

of your environment on some level, less distracted, maybe, right? Yeah. How is that? I've already asked

this question a little bit, but how did that inform your books? I mean, you write psychological

thrillers and you said they always end up in the woods somehow. But how do you use that in your writing?

Well, experience is everything, right? I mean, you come across more like an authority in your writing

and as a narrator in your own work, when readers are following along, it just adds like the little,

you know, all the little details, you know, you know, the smell of the sage and you are able to

describe that smell on a warming spring day, you know, whatever it is, that's in a mini wonderful

scent of sage. You don't have to look it up. You can speak from experience. And I think that

those details add so much to the bigger picture and authenticity. You know, it makes it that much

more real for the reader as an experience. I want to flip it. How much do you think writing about it

has improved the experience that you have in nature? Oh, that's a great question. I have never

been asked that, but it's a wonderful question because I haven't thought about it and you're

absolutely right. It makes me, I'm writing in my head of some time. I'm thinking, I will,

I will use my phone. I have a voice app on my phone and I will start talking when something,

you know, grabs my attention that I think is worthy, that I'll want to use later in my work.

I will talk it through, like, you know, this smells like this or this is what I'm seeing,

but this is how it's making me feel right now. I take more note, you know, and I'm not afraid to

slow down now. That's took me a lot of years is I don't worry so much about hurrying up and getting

there. The end goal, you know, whether it be a hike or whatever it is, a paddle. If, if that

looks like a great spot to fish, I, you know, I'm going to sit there for an hour or two,

tie my fly on and take a few swings at it. See what happens and it makes me think

I was in Yusemite this summer and got quite a waste from camp. I was camping and hiked down into

a canyon about four or five miles. It's mostly all down and I was coming back up and it opened up

hailing, storming like I've never seen. Huge granite. So you've got water just rushing.

There's no obvious trail. I'm by myself and I'm getting a little freaked out. This is, you know,

process. This is one mistake after the next is how bad things end up happening. It usually doesn't

just happen randomly. It's a series of misfortune events, right? Right. And I start thinking about

this. Like this is going to make, hopefully this makes an interesting story later on at some point.

So I take a lot of mental notes and see, you know, how's it feel to be scared? I hope when I get back

to camp, if I get back to camp, my tent hasn't washed away. My sleeping bag may be completely soaked.

It's getting late. I kind of sort of start writing the story in my head. This scenario,

just kind of scary sometimes. You know, I interviewed Roy Ginsburg several weeks back and we had

such a fun time talking about it, but it came up that we journal when we travel and he just really

did a great eloquent job of explaining how valuable that is because it helps to catalog the memories,

store them a little bit, help you to remember them. I like to collect, yeah, I like to collect

memories like treasures. And we forget so much. So I think that thinking about it in terms of

what would I write about this? Yeah, for sure. And I think to like, with those journals, like you're

talking, I used to journal all the time. Now I do more of just talking into my phone. I do usually

have some sort of journal or take notes on my phone, but I have stacks of half-filled journals,

mostly little tiny ones that can go in your backpack with you somewhere. But I always, like you

said, you can go back and revisit. For me, I did this before I wrote true nature. I started revisiting

some of those old journals. And I mean, there was people that I met that I had forgotten all about

in their names and just they had me at their home, cooked dinner for me, took me to places in

Kauai that, you know, you're not supposed to take anyone other than the locals, you know, and

yeah, I think, I think, and I think journaling now, looking back, is so beneficial. Can be

absolutely therapeutic. Have you ever gone through all the hassles of getting on the plane,

security, luggage, long waits at the airport, all that kind of stuff? And then when you finally

arrive at your destination, not only are you worn out, but you also might feel a little bit

disconnected. I know that I do when I hop scotch around the planet on a plane. That's one of the

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time offer that's outdoorsy.com promo code ASP. So I want to talk a little bit about true nature,

but just to kind of put the full story around this, you wrote the Cala Veris. Do you

trail the R when you say it? No. So you say Cala Veris. Cala Veris, yes. So the Cala Veris,

it's based on a county name. And it's a series of books that are psychological thrillers.

But they're all, I mean, listen to these titles. Blue Mountain, Forest Creek, Lonesome Dark,

these are outside titles. Yeah. And it was funny because that was so unintentional, so unintentional.

So my publisher just did the audio versions, just came out. I think it started a little over a

month ago. They started releasing one every month. And I got to revisit Blue Mountain, which I haven't

read in years, about four years it's been out. And I couldn't believe I, how often they ended up,

when things were just at their worst, I put them in nature. I put them on some sort of

adventurous course, you know. And it wasn't intentional. And Forest Creek, you know, I had had,

that was originally written somewhat as a screenplay. And so I had that story in my mind for years

because I actually had a situation where something similar happened to me while I was out hiking

on a fall day. And I accidentally ran across a marijuana grower on his way out. And it scared me.

I scared him. And it really scared my dog. And so as an author, you know, I, well, this was

why I hadn't even written any fiction yet. It was mostly all just freelance type of work.

All the way back to the car like five or six miles, I was like, that guy could, he, I know he had

a gun. He could have shot me. I could be dead right now just because I went in the wrong place

at the wrong time. And so I had this whole idea. And I wrote this screenplay. It actually won some

awards, never got made. But so it was easy, you know, you just write from experience, you know,

the old cliche, write what you know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's fun that nature has played a big

part. But then you went nonfiction and you wrote true nature, hidden in the high Sierra. And

that was a big change for you. But what inspired that book? Obviously, it's nature. It's the mountains.

But tell us about it. AI had just become pretty big. And it was all the talk of the town sort of

speak. Yeah. AI is going to end all authors careers. You know, and I had just become a grandmother

for the second time. I won a big award that allowed me to independently publish and cover all the

costs of whatever book I chose to write. And it just felt 100%. Right. People had been asking,

you know, why don't you write nonfiction? I just, I always read books. I feel like, it's like,

so what? You know, I, you, as a reader, you're always asking, so what? So I thought, well, so what?

I don't really have an extreme adventurous background. I haven't, you know, climbed Everest or

surfed the biggest waves or done, you know, something incredible. I think what I've done is very

basic, but also inspiring in a way that it shows you someone, you know, a little bit older,

a woman alone, you can do these things. You don't have to be extreme to get just as much benefit

out of these adventures. So it started out as a hidden gem guidebook. And then I, the more I wrote,

the more I started discovering that each of these hidden gems in the high Sierra really

affected my life. Like, they were milestones. Each one of them in, in my life, in my 30 years

in the back country, these places absolutely changed me. Wow. And once you got into the story

and into, into each place, it was easy to stitch it all together.

You said that each of these places changed. Do you, can you give us an example?

Oh, for example, there's a great hidden gem, one of the first stories in the book. I was delivering

firewood back in the day. It's kind of a follow, you know, side hustle. I would cut firewood and

deliver it up around Kirkwood ski resort in California. And I was delivering a load of firewood to

an older woman who kept asking me the same question over and over if I wanted some lemonade.

And I just thought, you know, it happens, right? Right. She asked me if I like to hike. And I said,

yeah, I love to hike. I had mostly only day hiked at that time. And she said, there is this great

post pile up here. I said, do you mean devil's post pile? Because that, there is a devil's post pile

down by mammoth, California, mammoth lakes. And pretty well known place. Kind of a, you know,

amazing geographic wonder type of place that a lot of people will visit. And she told me, no, it's

not that. I'm not going to give away the name of the place. But it's, it says, it's the name of

the place. She kept repeating it. And I've never heard of it. And I asked her if it was on maps. And

she said, nope, it's not on any map. And there's no trail to it. And you'll probably never find it.

Okay. Of course, that very day, she gave me a general idea of how, whereabouts it was. So I took off,

tried to find it, spent about four hours hiking, saw nothing, started making phone calls to people

that I knew that knew that area. They'd never heard of it. So I'm thinking this lady is just confused.

And she's still worried about the lemonade. She's still worried about the lemonade. Exactly.

Then I was up there again, delivering for not to hurt somebody else. So I tried, I said, well,

yeah, I really, really, really want to see this place. And I was rodeoing at the time. I was a

professional rodeo cow girl. I was training barrel racing horses and competing and doing pretty well.

And long story short, I tried three, four more times and failed to find this thing, four times. So,

so, you know, you're done. You're like, okay, I'm done. It doesn't exist. Or it does. And I can't

find it. And I accept my failure and time to move on. So I'm delivering a load of firewood to the

restaurant. It's called Kirkwood Inn. It's an old stage stop. Great place. A bunch of my friends

work there. I asked them if they'd heard of it. Nope, never heard of it. I am sitting at the bar

after unloading a quarter firewood, drinking a beer and eating a burger and these two older women

walk in and sit down behind me at a table. And I hear mushrooms post pile. There's the name.

And I swung around like the girl in the exorcist. And I said, what did you just say?

As she goes, yeah, I said, is this place for real? This was post pile. And she said, yes, I used to go

there when I was a girl and I have a map in a book at my cabin if you want to come and get it.

So, really? I did. I went to go get the map and she found the book but not the map. So,

yeah, another, another like up and down, up and down. But she pointed me in a different direction.

And I that day after about two hours, she was very specific on what to look for. And I believed her

that it existed. So, now I was like, I'm fighting this place. I don't care what it takes. How many

days I have to come back? I'm fighting this place. And I found it that day later that day. And

I was just amazed by it. It was absolutely this incredible, you know, millions of years old

post pile and you could climb up to the top and there's these giant, maw of colored lava bubbles

like they'd been petrified and frozen, you know, when they were hot and about to burst. And I just

sat up there. There's a rock that I swear is made to lay on. So, I got on this rock and I'm,

you know, just looking up at the sky and thinking, I was so filled with gratitude. And I thought,

I don't get this with the horses or the rodeo or winning. I could win the biggest railways. I

didn't feel fulfilled as I did that day, finding that post pile. And I thought, I am done. I'm

selling my horses. My rodeo careers over. And that was a huge aha moment. And that's how it changed

my course of my life that day. That's amazing. It absolutely was amazing. And that, you know,

I hadn't thought about it till I started writing the story. And I was like, I remember that day

as Claire Zabell, I remember the decision. And I just had never really revisited it. I had written

about this post pile where it was. I got some hate mail, which is understandable that it's not

an easy place to find. So, you're not typically going to get the people that leave, you know,

garbage and, and, you know, spray paint on rocks. It's, it's very difficult place to find.

Wow. Well, I think that going to nature, it can, I'm not sure this psychological effect,

you're the psychological thriller writer. So maybe we can dive into that a little bit, but it

takes people. It takes me somewhere that I don't go otherwise in my mind. It wakes up things. I,

I don't even know how to describe it. You can see I'm stumbling over my words just trying to come

up with it. But you go somewhere and you sit down, you're having a new experience and all of a

sudden life starts making more sense somehow. I did not expect that twist at the end. I gave up

rodeo. Yeah, I didn't expect it either that day. I wasn't planning. I hadn't even thought about it.

It was just this, you know, this is how old I am, an Oprah aha moment. I hadn't even been thinking

about it. You know, I hadn't really, you know, I just wasn't enjoying it as much and, you know,

that was my whole world, my family, my friends. That's like walking away and everybody absolutely

thought she has lost her mind, you know, she's there's got to be something wrong. Why would she quit?

I mean, I was winning. It's not like if you're not doing well and you're struggling and it's too hard

and you just feel it's not worth it. That's a different thing. But I was winning. I was selling

horses for a lot of money. Now I'm thinking maybe I should go back to that. There's some good money

of those horses, especially these days. But yeah, I hadn't even thought about it. And so that's what I'm

saying. I've realized how grateful I was and what that, that thing, right? That nature thing.

Being up there, just alone and hearing just, you know, just silence other than slight breeze.

And you're, it's, I've never done psychedelics, but I swear I'm from what I've read. It feels

like it might be very similar, you know, into being in tune with nature and being able to actually

feel the world around you. And that's what it did for me that day. And along with holy crap,

I did it. I did it. I found this place that they said didn't exist except for the old lady with

the lemonade. You know, I totally understand that part. When you try for something and it doesn't work

and you try again and you try again, you try and it kind of becomes even if it's not like it's

going to change my life, which in this case, it did. But when you finally get there, it makes it

all the more worthwhile because of the energy you put into it, the focus you put into it. I don't

know. It's part of why I love climbing mountains. Well, I would have found it the first day on the

first try after a few hours. I'd have been on this place is cool. Pretty awesome. Okay. And a story.

Go on with your life. So describe a post pile. Is it like the, the basalt stacks that you see

in some places or what? It is basalt. It is basalt. This has more of a red tinge to it.

Succited columns. Hexagonal. Yeah. Yeah. And millions of them. These ones are vertical.

Yeah. That's cool. And they're big ones. And what's cool is that you can climb to the top.

You're not climbing on the columns. There's a trail that goes, I mean, it's not a real trail,

but it's like a nature trail that kind of goes right along it. And you can work your way up

from the backside and get up there and just walk around on top of this post pile,

which you're, you're walking on top of the columns, but they don't look like flat columns.

It looks like giant. Oh gosh. I don't know. Three, four foot bubbles that were, you know,

you're thinking volcanic molten. And it's about to, that's how I looked at it. That's the writer,

right, assessing as you're going along. How would I describe this?

It's incredible. And what it did, because I could say it's not easy. There's no obvious trail

to it. And I didn't have GPS. Now it's on a map. And in fact, there's a fun little side note.

I got an email from a reader. Gosh. This just almost made the whole process of putting myself

out there and writing this book worth it. She sent me the longest email, but so heartfelt about.

She was going through a divorce, two little kids feeling very vulnerable, very desperate.

And she got a hold of my book somehow. And she said, it gave me hope. This book gave me hope.

She goes, I don't know. I'm not an outdoorsy person. She said, but I feel absolutely inspired to

try. And would you ever consider taking me on a hike? Wow. On a hike, I could take you on a

hike. Like, how hard is that? Like, let's meet up somewhere. So I told her a place to meet up

and after a few weeks, we did it. And I took her to Ms. Postpile. We got lost because I said,

no GPS. We're not doing that. And it had been years since I had been there. And we got, I got,

it wasn't her. It was me turned around. Kind of went in a circle for about 40 minutes and

gave up. I could have downloaded the map before, but I figured I do where I was going. But this

was the fun part of failure. Was that when we, I, we backtracked, got back to where we possibly

made the mistake. And I said, now it's up to you. It's getting a little bit late. We've been

hiking for about four hours when it doesn't take but about two or three to get there.

Do you want to go back and we can try it again another day? I was kind of hoping she'd say,

let's just go back and try another day because my knee was hurting. And she said, I do not want to

go back. I want to at least try. And I said, okay, let's do this. And boom, we're there another hour

later. We're there. And she just felt so I think it really hit her, you know, this was the place I

had read about. I wanted to go. And here I am. I did it. I'm here. She was so thankful. And I don't

know, you know, if that made any difference whatsoever. But it sure felt like it did. And

for her to put herself out there and email me and ask me to take her hiking. Like just to make her

feel better. It, that was an absolute privilege on my part, an absolute privilege. It was a great

day in so many ways. That's fun. And in memory, I love the way that you're retelling the story

of this, but I can see the excitement. I can see you reflecting on it. And that's why I collect

memories. I just really think they're so valuable, you know, and you made a great memory that day.

And the fun thing too is that you got lost going back to the place you had found. I love that

because that's part of what nature is about. It's, you know, it's always mysterious. It's

surprising. It'll take you places you didn't expect. And that's why we should go. That's the

adventure of it, you know. Well, we were laughing about it. I mean, you know, type two fun, right?

It was a lot more fun when we got back afterwards getting lost because I felt like just so ignorant.

I was so mad at myself for not downloading the map, but overconfident that I could find the

place because that I had written about. Yeah, but it, it, it was a good reminder too, you know,

be prepared. I just assumed I knew how to get there and thought my memory would come back as I

went, but there was a lot more down trees in my defense. There, there was so many town trees.

Things do change. This fall, late, it was after the first snow, but it had kind of melted off

in the most part. I decided to go to a place I just called a beaver pond. I don't know that it

has a name. I don't know the name of the stream that it's on. I don't know anything about it except

it's this beaver pond. And I hadn't been there for a couple of years, but I thought I need a hike

today and I should go try to see if I can get in there before the snow closes it down for the season.

When I got there, I did find it. But when I got there, I almost didn't recognize it. And here's

what nature taught me from, you know, from this hike. The beavers had nearly cleared a forest of

Aspen. Yep. And the beaver dam was about the same size that it had ever been, but this is a big

beaver dam. It's probably 10 feet tall. Oh, wow. And there were new beaver ponds that weren't there

before, you know, used to it. There was one, maybe two, now they're six, but it was still beautiful.

And as I said, they're looking at how much work these little critters had done. I was just blown

away, but what it made me think of Lisa was like writing my book. If you do something consistently,

look how much progress you make over time. What you can achieve by doing a little at a time and

just sticking with it. And that's what the beavers did. And I thought, wow, I couldn't imagine the

amount of work, just the amount of physical work involved. You know, they have transformed the

landscape. And it's beautiful now. You know, it's beaver pond beaver pond beaver pond. It's a

habitat for for trout. It's a habitat for it's really cool salamanders. Yeah. They're amazing

salamanders in these beaver ponds. And I guess the point is I never expected to learn that lesson

from going on a hike that day, but it was a really amazing reminder. If we have a dream and you do

something to achieve the dream, you just chip away at it a little bit every day. You can move

mountains that way. Well, absolutely. I mean, what were the odds of me trying to find this

post pile failing over and over and sitting at a bar having a beer and a burger and these two

old women coming in and talking about this post pile, I had been trying to find for weeks. Now,

come on. What is that? That's that's something beyond, you know, to coincidence. It found you.

Yes. I think, you know, the universe said this poor chick. She let's cut her some slack, huh?

Well, that's another point in the story, I think, is whenever you have an intention towards

something, maybe it just builds our awareness. It's kind of like when you buy a car and you've

never seen a car like it before and you're so happy to have a unique car. And then the next week,

you see 12 others just like it. You know, because you start to notice, but it's more than that when

it comes to these sorts of experiences, when you focus your attention and intention on something,

then the doors start to open. It leads to the end result, whatever it's going to be.

And I think that's important. You bring up a really, really great point is that I don't think by

trying to tell someone you should go high or you should go do this or nature there, be that.

I think just get out there and be open to whatever happens. Don't expect an epiphany.

You know, because the universe's going to do what's going to do or nature's going to do what

she's going to do, you just have to be open and let it come as it will.

I've heard this was something that I heard about raising children. You can't,

okay, so the quality time is what we're looking for. That big experience, but you can't plan

for that. You can't make it happen. It's the quantity of time that creates those experiences and

those memories. Because if you spend enough time in nature, you will see magical things,

right? Mysteries and beauty and you'll have experiences and things will happen. You'll be like,

wow. Well, and that was an interesting thing too. In the book, one of the first editors,

when it was just kind of a big mess of stories, and I wasn't sure where exactly I was going with

that, just all these experiences, these adventures in nature, in the Sierra. And one of his comments

to me was, wow, you sure have had like a lot of crazy things have happened to you. And I said,

you know what? Not if you took the overall picture. This is 30 years being in the back country.

Most of the time, nothing spectacular happens. Or, you know, I don't, my significant other isn't

always licked in the face by a bear. Or, you know, don't always fall in the river and almost drown.

You know, these are the stories based off the hidden gems. But sometimes just being, like you say,

the the quantity of times that I have spent in the back country in the Sierra, you're going to have

inevitably have these adventures, these events that kind of stand out, you know, highlights.

Look worthy. Yeah.

So what was the intention behind writing the book? Again, the name of the book is true nature,

hidden in the high Sierra. So we heard the one story, post-pile, devil's post-pile. What was that?

Anyway, was it just to kind of archive these experiences? Or does the book have another purpose?

I have to be honest, the main purpose, the convincing number one factor was probably becoming a

grandmother again for the second time and thinking, I'm getting old. I've had so many close calls.

And if I die, this is the book I want my grandchildren to read, not how, you know,

psychologically twisted my thrillers are.

So I would say that that was kind of the the kicker for sure was, and that's who I dedicated the

book to is is my grandchildren. But in the end, just to get people to maybe be inspired, that these

aren't these crazy, you know, super extreme adventures. It's all perspective. I call it personal

stoke. And I talk about that in the book too. That was a story I had written for, can we say REI

back in the day about as we age and finding that will to still get out there and adventure

because it's so much easier to sit on the couch, you know, when your back is hurting, your knees

are hurting and you've got all these reasons to stay home and you keep thinking I'll go tomorrow.

And I think each story adds not only a way to a realistic way to get out and do something.

It adds the reason why you should. Like I talked about how it changed me. I think if you're

open and spend some quality and quantity time out in nature. And I think there is something to

being alone out there. And maybe that sounds really scary and you shouldn't do that at first.

If it's just absolutely terrifying, you should probably start out with a simple little day hike or

go with somebody more experienced than you that you have confidence in. But that's what it's turned

out to be. But the original inspiration for the story was surely for my grandchildren. And now

it's turned into I'm getting these emails or I'm getting these, you know, comments on social media.

I read your book. I did this. Will you take me to this place? I'll pay you.

It's been very positive. It's been really positive. And what's really cool for me is getting

responses. I don't want to sound like I'm talking about the book too much. But I, this is

a cool thing that the non-outdoorsy people have no interest in going and doing something adventurous,

can still relate and say how much they appreciated the stories, you know, the heart and the emotion

of the stories. So that was also a huge thing. Because it's scary. I don't like nonfiction. I don't

like putting myself out there. I didn't, I did not like it at all. And I can't wait to get back to

like murder and mayhem. It's much easier. That's funny. I wanted to share something with you

and get your opinion or something for you to reflect on. Because I think it could be related to

what happened with your book a little bit. So it's been two or three years for some reason. My mind

drifted into the thought that we experience life through filters. We interpret things based on

our preconceived ideas or understanding of the world around us or, you know, all sorts of things.

But we actually get to choose how we want to encounter an experience. So when I go into nature,

it's real easy to be scientific. I can look at things and I can think about physics or botany

or biology and start explaining everything in those terms. Or I can stop and look at it and see

the wonder of it all without the explanation without saying, well, I know why that happened. That's

because of this, this, this, and this. I can just go, wow, that happened. Yeah. But here's a quick

little anecdote. I went solo back backing in the dark. I after work, off trail, of course,

above tree line. And as I'm going, I didn't take a flashlight because I don't like flashlights

much. And so you can imagine what this is turning into. I'm stumbling around on the dark. There's

no moon. I mean, it was really dark pitch black. And I hiked up on a bull elk. It was during the

rut. And so he was scraping the felt off his horns on some willow bushes, but I couldn't see him.

But I heard him and he was very close and I just froze. I was very, very still. And he caught my

scent or something. And so he froze. I could hear him breathing. You know, he's trying to figure out

what's going on. And I'm thinking, man, what is the best thing to do in this situation? I, it was,

it was so dark he couldn't see the hand in front of your face. And I finally just said, I'm going to

let him know. I'm here. So I just said, hello, you know, Mr. elk, whatever. And so he bolted.

But what surprised me? Maybe he could see better or he knew the trail or whatever, but he ran

toward me instead of away from me. And he ended up passing right by me on the trail. And I never saw

but the ground shook the thunder of his hooves. And I thought, I don't know how close he was,

but I could have reached out and touched him. Never saw him. And how do you want to interpret

that life experience? And over the years, as I reflect on it, I've had, it, it has impacted

me in different ways. Right? You could say, well, you're an idiot. You're hiking in the dark

off trail without a flashlight and you could have been gourd by an elk. That would be one interpretation.

Another interpretation is what a gift. You'll never forget that. I bet you can easily go back

there in your mind any moment and hear it. And just because of also not being able to see and

being in the dark, your audio, right, is heightened. Your sense of smell is heightened. Your nerves are

firing. Your adrenaline's rushing through your time probably slowed down a little bit. You'll

never forget that experience. And how many other people can say that? Are you kidding? That's amazing.

Well, what's been interesting to me is the different ways that's impacted me. And this is just

one example. And I think what you're writing about in your book provides those sorts of opportunities

too. It's, it's like, well, it meant one thing to me then. But I've even more recently said,

big, dangerous things in the dark, the unknown, the unseen, stuff that we fear, but isn't there to

hurt us. You know, that sort of generalization that actually is like, yeah, I've had that experience

and life is often like that. And that's okay. You know, yeah. I mean, it makes me think I've done

accidentally some hiking in the dark. I didn't like it. It was on a trail. I had a headlamp. I was still

expected by it. It was on a Tahoe rim trail. And I, I was clapping and singing. And I realized,

I do not know the words completely to one entire song. Like I also had a close encounter with a

big humpback whale paddle boarding near Caiuchus. That sucker was under my paddleboard. It was coming up.

Now there's that line, right? Like your elk to where it's such a fine line. Like if he jumps

and takes me down, I'm trying to outthink this. I'm playing this scenario through my mind as when

this thing comes up, because he, he had come up a few times. And what he's going to do is, you know,

backflip thing. And, and I'm going under. There's no point in fighting. Just hand it over to nature,

right? Because take a deep breath and just see what happens. And that was one of the most amazing

experiences of my life. Yeah. I could have, I could say I could have been killed easily. Just like

your elk. I mean, one inch probably the other way. You'd have a little different story, right? Sure.

Yeah, but I mean, that's what makes life worth living. Those experiences, especially when we get

old and, you know, won't be able to get out of bed. That's all we're going to have.

Oh, it's fun to, to build those memories and they can feed us and inform us for decades.

They really can. Hopefully others. Hopefully others. Well, I love the sound of your book, true nature,

hidden in the high Sierra. I would like to talk to you for another couple of hours, but I think

we're out of time. I can't believe it's already been an hour. I know it has so fast. So fun. And that

was a beautiful place to wrap this up to the way that nature impacts us. Not not every hike is

going to inform the rest of your life, but some will, right? Yes. And so that's that's what you

were writing about in your book. I think that's really, really cool. Well, thank you so much,

Lisa, for coming on the program. And, you know, at the end of the each show, I always say, get

out there and have some fun somehow. And I never know quite the right way to say it for that show.

But this time, I think it might be just get out there. Yeah. Because something amazing is going to

happen. If you can't get out there, if you're snowed in, like happens to us a lot and the powers

out, you can read a book, get your head lamp out and read a book. Doesn't have to be mine.

Pick up a book and read it. Read about other people's adventures. That's inspiring. And,

and you might find a new event you like to do. And I love it. I love it. Well, everyone out there

get out there and have an experience. There you go. Thank you, Kurt.