Ep. - 1555 - REAL HOUSEWIVES OF BEVERLY HILLS LADIES OF LONDON: THE NEW REIGN

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Welcome back for another episode of reality life with KKC.

I hope that you have had a great weekend and I have such a great episode for you today.

Now this week's episodes are jam packed.

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The bonus podcast episodes go check out my last one about the Alexander brothers lawsuit.

So today's episode Louis Staples is back with me.

He is a cultural writer based in London.

Now last week I had Christian Vesper who's Brian Moilin's husband on the show.

He is a film executive and he and Brian have lived in London for the last six years.

So asked him a lot about social dynamics and the differences between America and London.

So monarchy versus aristocracy versus socialites and more.

So today Louis and I are going to talk about the show but in terms of each cast member and

what their story is and I think that the new cast is fascinating because it blends actual

aristocracy with modern influencer culture which in London is a lot more delicate in terms

of the ecosystem than it is in the US.

At the top of the social hierarchy is Lady Emma.

She's the Marchiness of Bath.

Now she's the real deal because she's part of British aristocracy.

She and her husband live in one of the most famous stately homes in England.

She's a former model and luxury brand ambassador.

She looks a little bit like Tandy Newton.

Extremely beautiful.

And I think it's interesting to kind of get a window into the expectations that come

with being part of one of Britain's most visible noble families.

You have Martha Sitwell.

She's known as Lady Sitwell.

Her life story feels a little bit cinematic.

She was once married to someone pretty important.

But her life has also included childhood trauma, periods of homelessness as a teenager.

She was modeling for Vivian Westwood and then there was a financial collapse after her

divorce.

So she's rebuilding and she also has a bird that lives in her house.

She feels very great gardens.

You've Mark Francis, who is the show's resident socialite and the only male cast member.

Now you may recognize him from the British reality show Made in Chelsea.

He's the son of a Russian princess.

And a reputation is one of London's most flamboyant society figures.

He's really known for his razor sharp wit and sort of unapologetic snobbery.

Then you have a Swedish born model who some viewers may recognize from the real housewives

of Chesher.

So Missy's story includes a marriage and a divorce and then she was in a terrible relationship

with another guy.

And she's probably one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen on screen.

Kimmy Murdoch brings another layer of global wealth to the group.

She is a shipping aress and an antique dealer.

She's based in London.

She's lived there, I think, like 30 years.

Stylish and sharp, balancing single motherhood with a high society social life.

And often offers a little bit more of an international perspective on the dynamics within the group.

You have Micah, she's an American and believe it or not, she's one of the world's most famous

etiquette experts.

And her company teaches everything for royal etiquette to professional conduct.

Now one of those conflicts in the show is Micah's friendship with Dara.

Now Dara is an American architect and a designer.

She briefly appears on the show and you'll see it kind of unfold in the first two episodes.

She shares a child with Princess Beatrice's husband.

And early in the season, she's caught on a hot Micah criticizing Micah, who by the way

thinks they're really great friends.

She calls her tacky, which becomes one of the first major conflicts of the series.

Margot is an American model and actress who once starred in the controversial film Nine

Songs.

And then there's Lottie Cain.

She represents a younger generation of London's fashion-forward social elite.

So you've got this spinning group of friends.

So if you love the original ladies of London, I think you're going to like this.

And maybe even more, a lot of interesting personalities and the style and the landscape,

it's all great.

Then we go a little bit into Real Housewives of Beverly Hills we talk about.

A manor's personality, we talk about the divorce war through the lens of Rachel Zoes

divorce and Dereets and then of course, Kyle and Maurizio.

So we talk about all of the things that are probably top of your mind on Real Housewives

of Beverly Hills as well.

So sit back and enjoy this episode.

And as always, make sure that you are subscribed and share these episodes with the people in

your life.

Here's my interview with Louie.

Louie's back.

Welcome back.

Thanks for having me.

London Calling.

London Calling, I'm so excited to talk to you because, of course, ladies of London the

new reign I'm thrilled about.

Because it's a new show.

Lord knows I like new shows, new people, new information, new stories, but also takes

me to another part of the world.

And I've long been fascinated by social dynamics in London.

So I feel like you're the perfect person to talk about the first two episodes of the

show.

Are you excited with the news that this new reboot would be coming out so soon?

I was very excited.

And especially because just to give the listeners some background, there's been like London

on London show sort of beef because the Real Housewives of London was launched last year

by Hey You, which is kind of like RP-Cock services everywhere outside America.

So it's kind of like the reality TV Netflix, if you will, we get all the uncensored versions

of everything the next day.

It's fabulous.

But they launched their own Real Housewives of London, which was their first show that

they've ever made.

So it was an original.

And then hot off the heels of that announcement a few months later, it was the bravo

we're doing, ladies of London.

So it was a bit like that's a little weird because you and bravo are both owned by NBC

Universal.

So they're owned by the same pairing company.

So it seemed a little strange to me that they were doing their own show in the same city,

which ladies of London is a very similar concept to the Real Housewives.

So I wasn't sure how it was going to go.

I thought this is a little bit odd.

But actually, having watched both of them, it's remarkable how different they are.

They're very different shows.

They follow a different group of women.

And obviously in ladies' London, there is a gay man as well.

So yes, they follow a totally different type of vibe, which I was very fascinated by.

Well, first tell us what would you say is the difference between Real Housewives of London

versus this show?

OK, so hard to say this diplomatically.

The Real Housewives of London, it's a lot more new money.

OK.

Women who are very wealthy, like dogging around, there's money.

But they are not women, I don't think, who have generational wealth.

The ladies of the London is one of the things that's really impressed me with it is actually

how many people they've managed to get involved in it that have a genuine part of the aristocracy,

which is really, I was very surprised by.

And I think actually shows you the power of, like, how much reality TV is now literally

part of the mainstream for cultural furniture, right?

10 years ago, I think you would have so struggled to get people like the cast of ladies of

London on a reality show.

So now it really shows us just how uncontroversial that is.

Even the notoriously snooty elites, our aristocracy of the UK are embracing this kind of

formally very low art considered platform.

So the ladies' London mostly have pre-existing relationships.

And I think I really got the sense from their opening to episodes that most of

them are used to being in rooms together.

They've got history, even in the opening episode, there was sort of tensions between

two of the American women, and that because they've known each other since college.

So there was definitely backstory there.

There were existing relationships on Real House, I was the London, but they weren't.

I didn't get the impression they were as deep and quite a few of the cast members were

meeting each other for the first time in the first sort of opening event.

So I didn't get the sense that was happening as much on this show.

And I think you can really tell.

And thirdly, I think another thing I love about the Real Housewives is, no, the ladies'

London, sorry, is that it captures a specific type of eccentricity, a certain kooky-ness

that exists in the upper class that I don't think Real Housewives of London captures quite

so well.

It captures a different side of the wealth in London, but someone like Martha, Lady Martha

sit well, for example, who's this kind of, how to describe her?

She's a quirky sort of, slightly eclectic.

She can tell she's lived a life.

I think her life story is that she was essentially estranged from her family as a teenager.

Then she got discovered by Vivian Westwood and became a fashion model in the 90s.

I think she had quite a, put it mildly, a debauchery time in the 90s.

I've read some other interviews she's done, and yes, I think she's had, yes, done some,

you know, substances in her time.

And she's married twice, got lots of money, lost lots of money.

So she's, I think she's in her maybe 40s, I'm not, I'm not actually sure how old she's,

but she's, I get the sense she's lived a lot of lives, which is, I think, I know that

you'll be with me on this cake.

That's one of the great things about these shows, isn't it, where they find women lived

a life.

Yeah.

The Real Housewives of London, would any of them, would any of their lives cross over

with the cast of ladies of London, the new reign?

I think so.

I think it's not like these people inhabit completely different worlds.

I think honestly, like, I would love like a girl's trip with the cast together, and

it would not surprise me if they, there are cast members that know each other, or if

there were cast members that were approached for both projects, because if you think, London

is not, it's not the sort of, a leap of London is not a huge pool.

So I think the fact that there were two shows casting for essentially a similar demographic,

I would be shocked if there weren't some of them that had auditioned for both shows.

And as we know, Julia Angus is from the original ladies' London.

So there's already a kind of roster.

I also, another thing to flag is that two of the cast members on Ladies of London are

from other shows already.

So in the UK, we have Real Housewives of Cheshire, which is, Cheshire is a place in the

north of England that's kind of a mixture of new money and old money, and it's a place

where a lot of the soccer players who, thanks for being here, and just united in things

that Liverpool, a lot of them have these huge mansions in Cheshire.

Doesn't Colleen Rooney, did she live there too?

Yeah, exactly.

That precise type, the precise type of person that lives there.

So it was kind of following a lot of the footballers, the soccer players, sorry wives, and Miss

A, who is in Ladies of London, she was married to a Swedish footballer who was playing in

the UK.

So she, I first met her years ago on that show, and she had like, it just had a baby

with him, and then she ended up really suddenly getting divorced from him on that show.

And then I think she said in her sort of interest, she then had this whirlwind romance with

this other guy.

I think he was a bit of a kind of one of those bad boys that you've become very obsessed

with very quickly.

I all went into them pretty sure she had a restraining order against him at some point.

It was like a big tabloid thing here, and now she seems to settle back in London and

is entering a new era.

So I already knew her.

Mark Francis, who is the gay man on Ladies of London, who I think is playing a really interesting

role because he's almost like the Greek chorus in a way, and he's kind of like the narrator

because he's not above in terms of stature, but above them in terms of the fact that he's

not getting so involved in the dramas.

He's more commentating and being a facilitator for conversations.

He is from another show called Made in Chelsea, which to describe that, it's sort of like

the R version of the Hills.

Yeah.

Chelsea is a very affluent neighborhood in London, in West London, full of, you know, full

of all money, and Made in Chelsea was our sort of structured reality show that followed

young people living in that area, and it was kind of similarly to the Hills.

It was part dramatized, part, you know, it had actually had to disclaimer beforehand,

saying some scenes had been created for entertainment values.

So Mark's role on that show was very much like, I would say he was like the Jennifer

Tilly, someone who says kooky, kind of ridiculous, rich person things a lot, like things about

like, oh no, darling, you would never store your furniture at room temperature when you're

going to the dark like, yeah, he just sort of existed as a quote generator for kind

of ridiculous buzz quotes, which I'm actually really interested to see him on this show

because he's already getting a little bit more of a personal storyline, like I had, I've

watched him for years on Made in Chelsea, and I had no idea that he had a father that

he wasn't so close, like I have no idea about any of that stuff that he's sort of already

teased on ladies of London.

So it looks like we're already going to get to see a bit more of a personal side to him,

which I'm actually really interested by because it's interesting with reality TV, isn't it?

Sometimes those characters that we don't get to know, they're there for the, you know,

adding a bit of flavor, adding a bit of humor, but we don't get to know them on a deeper

level.

So I'm interested to see whether that's the side of him we see on this show.

I love how, to your point, the best is a life while lived in each of them is so seemingly

so unique in a way that it almost feels like it can only exist in London.

You know, if you took those characters and they lived in Beverly Hills, I don't know if

they would be chosen for a show.

I think there's also this thing that is, I don't know, some Americans have this miss miss

apprehension that because someone has lady as their title or whatever that they're really

rich, when actually something to know about the aristocracy is that a lot of these people

are not cash rich, like a lot of them may be living a big house that's been passed

down for generations that they can't even really afford to run.

I think it was Emma was saying about she's the, so longly, by the way, Emma is the sort

of, I think March and S of longly, I'm not exactly sure what her title is, but she has

a such an interesting story.

She's one of the first, I think the first woman of color in the aristocracy and longly

is really famous.

Like when I saw her, I was like, okay, like this is, they've got some serious money because

longly is really famous.

They've done quite a lot of really interesting things that family, I think they mentioned

on the show that they opened up their estate to the public, they were the first people

to do that.

And on longly, there's this really famous Safari Park, so it's kind of like the central

Park Zoo.

It's like, it's just sort of like a thing that a lot of people have been to.

It's a great day out, but they also did this reality show when I was a teenager about

the sort of, the goings on at the Safari Park, like how they, you know, behind the scenes

of the Safari Park.

So they've got this history of really opening up the estate either to the public physically

or opening up the cameras already.

So that her being on this show obviously feels like it feels almost like the next stage

of that and introducing her more as the face of their brand.

But yeah, so she's got a very interesting story and she kind of spoke a little bit about

how they opened up the estate to essentially make money because they couldn't really afford

to keep that house running because it was, it's like a bazillion, $150 million house

for something, it's ridiculous.

So obviously they're not poor by like any normal person standards, but there's a

specific British aristocracy thing of having a title and having maybe assets, but not necessarily

having lots of money to spare, just to spend.

So yeah, it creates all, I mean, in our wider society, it creates quite a lot of problems

because we often see like aristocratic people being embroiled in, you know, like scams

and things like that because they have a lot of connections and a lot of influence,

but not often a lot of money.

So there are people that are like ripe for, you know, I don't want to say the E word,

the Epstein's of the world, people like that, they're ripe for exploitation and grooming

for people like that because they have, yeah, a lot of elite connections, but not a lot

of money.

How much would it cost to be a woman in London who is invited to all of these parties

and expected to be in pictures and magazines?

Oh, I can't even imagine.

Yeah, it would be extremely expensive.

I would say that it's probably not dissimilar to like the New York, like I mean, I'm

probably not hugely dissimilar to that, but I mean, I would say that's still a phenomenal

amount of money that it would cost to be going to like three or four gala's a week.

Definitely huge amounts of money, but also there's quite a lot, these people do have

connections for things, you know, connections for dresses, can it?

The aristocracy basically runs on who knows who, it's an elite club that wants to remember

of it.

You do have people that can do things for you, which I think is part of the appeal of

being a member.

I thought it was so interesting how at the end of episode two, this completely sums up

the cultural difference between Americans and British people, right?

So at the end of episode two, Dara, RIP, the cast member who we have sadly lost, which

I'm by the way devastated by, I really wanted to see that all playing out, although we can

talk about that in a second, respect to her for just knowing that it wasn't her thing.

Part of the cast member who lost gets up at this dinner party, she's hosting and she

says something like, we're all self-made people here, we've made something from nothing,

which totally sums up, like that is the American story.

Absolutely, we would celebrate that.

We have more respect for somebody who's self-made.

That is the American story, the American dream of making something and passing it down

and being the person that does that, that's the story that everyone aspires to and celebrates

in America.

And it's so funny because in that specific circle that she's navigating, that is not an

aspirational thing.

They would almost find that a little bit insulting to...

Absolutely.

That's that they have made something from nothing.

Not that I agree with that, of course, but I thought it was very funny the way they edited

it around, like Mark's mother was a Russian princess and all these other people that have

definitely not...

That was very funny the way they did that.

Very funny, Mark's face was like, woo, almost like he just horrified.

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In America, there's a lot of disdain for what we consider nepot Babies, right?

So like, Gwyneth Paltrow's daughter, if she gets an opportunity, it's like, well, just

because your mom got it for you, there's a lack of respect for it.

So what would the Brits think about the discussion of nepot Babies?

Well, I've got to say, British society practically runs on nepotism.

So I think if anyone had anything to say about it, I mean, we literally have a hereditary

monarchy.

I think that's the original nepotabay, right?

That's the original nepotabay.

I think so.

Yeah, basically, the UK is, let me try and, so basically, the elite of our society tend

to be in politics, business, media, right?

And then also then the more sort of creative ones are in like the arts.

So you might have people that are like, high up in the theatre or the ballet or the opera

or whatever.

It's probably not so dissimilar to maybe Harby on the East Coast, I think, in more or

what my British stereotype would be about that sort of.

Yes, absolutely.

Got it.

Yeah.

So yeah, like, for example, Martha said, well, the Lord said well, who she divorced

to, she said, all I have is my title.

His brother is a very famous journalist in the UK.

So all these people are sort of like spread around.

And his brother is best friends with like one of the very powerful conservative politicians.

And they're all sort of spread.

They all know each other.

They're all best my each other's weddings.

It's very incestuous.

I have a funny story about him actually.

So William St. Wells, who's the brother of Martha's ex-husband, he's his little brother.

He, yes, he was a journalist.

I believe he was a food journalist at this point.

He used to be a restaurant critic.

And someone, if he was embroiled in this controversy a few years ago, where someone emailed him,

I think it was a vegan recipes to feature in the publication or like vegan recipes

or something like that.

Something to do with vegans.

And he responded to her saying, I've got something like, I've got an idea.

Why don't we kill all vegans?

In that kind of very, you know, how there's like a vaguely right-wing panic about like vegan.

So he said it was a joke, like I'm obviously I'm sure he wasn't being serious, but I ended

up causing this big thing and he ended up getting fired.

So I hired for that?

Yeah.

It's my word.

He had to resign.

It was like one of the two.

So it was like, you know, one of those micro controversies that last for like, it was like

that.

And it was about 10 years ago.

And I was like, I knew I recognized the name St. Wells from somewhere.

She's a little bit gray gardens now.

She is.

I mean, the whole Magpie thing, like I love to watch on TV, but like disgusts me, like

the thought of input a bird, like not just a bird, but a bird that doesn't have a cage.

Like.

Yeah.

That way it's like everywhere.

Picked at all of her.

Nope.

I just found it.

She's in a place.

Can you imagine?

If I was her landlord, no, that would never be the case, but if I was, I'd be like, can

you not?

I mean, it's Magpie like pooping all over my.

But she sort of like flits and flees through life.

Like someone will pick up my mask.

It'll all be okay.

But you know, exactly.

She has the ease of someone who has fallen down multiple times, but then has always been

able, like because of her surroundings, being able to pick herself back up.

Like she knows that she's actually never going to end up like properly on the streets.

Like she's going to be fine.

Um, that's so true.

And also, yeah, that, that thing about how she's very trusting of people.

That's also like, very trusting of people because she knows she's never going to have

like everything taken from her like it's because she's gone.

She's going to be fine.

Um, I think that she does have something that I do love, though, which is increasingly

rare in today's world, which is someone who I'm like, why are you on the show?

Like you know what I mean?

Like on housewives on like, it's normally like within the first five minutes, it's like,

oh, they're promoting that business.

Oh, they're doing that.

Like, oh, they're doing that.

But why quite like about ladies of London is that there's actually several of them that

I'm like, why are they doing this show?

That's a question mark still.

Maybe it'll reveal itself over the next few episodes is plenty of time.

But I like that.

I like, I like it.

Maybe she just has all schools.

It sounds maybe they just want to be kind of low key famous.

Like is that, is that the goal?

Because American reality stars are, they will be selling you something 20 minutes into

the show.

Even on the show, how much have we already seen that?

We've got the etiquette for which, by the way, I mean, the other one.

That's okay.

Wow.

We've got the etiquette.

We have the architect who obviously sadly is no more a margo, the actress, margo, the

actress came is the only one that there's a slight question mark off.

And I will say, I'm going to say she's an honorary brick came because she has been there

for like, I think, 30 years and she doesn't speak with, she speaks like season seven to

read.

Like she's got genuine transatlantic accent.

And she's sort of is, I think, imbued with a certain London woman quality to her, was

I think my only criticism of the casting on this show is that it's a shame that they couldn't,

I mean, maybe this is a very tough ask, but it's a shame that the Americans they picked

seem to be women who have very recently moved to London.

It would be nice if they had more Americans because I understand it's an American show.

Also American women are fascinating too, but and it's kind of interesting to see those

cultural differences.

But I kind of wish that they were women that had more of a connection to the place because

I do think, well, I actually think we're going to see a lot on this show as a cultural

divide between the British and the Americans.

I think even in the like coming up next week, there was some stuff that I was like, oh,

that's, it's going to be spicy, like different attitudes towards sharing and vulnerability.

Like the upper classes are extremely emotionally, like, I mean, if you've ever worked with

a crown, you'll know, like, extremely not, not down with sharing.

Well, you know what's interesting is like, even though my relatives are Irish and English,

and the way that it trickles down, even though I'm an American and my mom's an American,

so much of that still exists within families, if somebody shared something like that with

my mom, she would have the same reaction, like you're embarrassing, why are you telling

me that?

Okay, quick question for you.

When Martha says that she has always sort of fell into wealthy men, this is a cultural

difference I wondered about, because she's obviously getting older.

Now I think if the same woman lived in America, there would be this realization, okay,

well, I'm almost like stale bread, and I'm at a point now where the men are skewing younger.

So does that happen in London?

Would you see a lot of, like, in Southern California, for example, you would see a guy

who's 60 in a convertible with a girl that's 20 and people would be like, yeah, that sounds

about right, because the men here believe they should be with someone younger.

Does that exist in London too?

Oh, absolutely, unfortunately, that exists.

I think that's a male trait that transcends international development.

Everywhere in the world.

Yes, I will say, the opera classes, I think we saw some, some inklings of this on the

show already, actually, I think it was, was it Margo that said that she went for a shooting

weekend with Martha. There was kind of, I'd say, like, rituals of socializing.

Again, maybe this is quite East Coast, like Polo, Point to Point.

That's like the top 1%. It's a very small micro group.

So the opera classes in England will do, you know, yes, shooting weekends in Scotland,

Polo, Point to Point, things like that, which I think encouraged, goes back to what I was

saying earlier, that's sort of goldfish bowl. I think, I think, I can't exactly, this is a

generalisation, but I think to some of the men in that goldfish bowl, someone like Martha would

be desirable, because she's in the bowl, whereas, like, thinking someone who's the young and

beautiful, maybe those girls you day or sleep with, but not ones you marry, because they're not

the sort of, quote, unquote, caliber. I think that I expect that there's, like, women that they

want to go to bed with, but they're women who they would want to take on, like, the shooting

weekend or whatever, or to Santa Pay or whatever with their friends. So I think that there's kind of,

perhaps, a distinction there. Would women there be okay with that? Like, would a 50-year-old woman

be okay with it? I'm in a new relationship with Matthew, but Matthew is a man who's 60, but has

desires. So I have to make peace with the fact that he'll also be sleeping with a 25-year-old,

but I will be able to go fuzz and hunting. Oh, absolutely. I would say this ton, I would,

I don't have any proof of this, but I would say there's loads of relationships that are probably

like that. Side point, one thing that I've always noticed from Housewives is that there's a lot more

of a cheating taboo in American culture than there is in, which is called really. I think it's

perhaps something to do with the church. I'm not sure exactly, but I even on shows like Vanderbilt

Rules and stuff like this, like, I mean, well, to give you the answer, one of our, we've had about

Brazilian Prime Ministers in the last 10 years, but Boris Johnson, one of our, I mean, he's literally

married to his mistress now and they've had, well, former mistress and they've had loads of kids.

Everyone knew that. It really wasn't a big deal. If you read the tabloids, you can see certain things

of our Prince William that may, you know, are in the public domain. Charles and Camila,

like, it's just very much. Do people there believe think that Prince William cheated or

they just accept it? Yeah. Oh, it's just everyone definitely. I mean, and did they think Rose

Handbury was the mistress and they're just like, oh, okay, that's it, but it is what it is.

Yeah, I basically think that it's kind of just known that it's, I wouldn't say it's just,

yeah, pretty much known, but I wouldn't say it necessarily, interestingly, I wouldn't

necessarily say it invalidates his marriage. I'd say that people would have that decision generally.

But you're right. In America, it would be like, he cheated what an asshole like she should leave

him. But you know, the Church of England was, of course, created because he wanted to divorce.

And I say that as somebody who's in the Church of England. Yes. And generally speaking, I would say,

I would say it feels like it's something to do with, yeah, the fact that Christianity tends to have

a sort of bigger part of American discourse. And just in every, you know, how people speak,

then it doesn't. And that probably again goes back to that thing you're saying about nobody wants

to hear about your problems. But like, like, British people would never like sort of broadcast their

beliefs in that way, like, publicly, like, our politicians. I feel like that too, yes. Yeah.

So it goes back to, I think, those types of cultural traits, which are obviously very interesting.

But yes, in general, obviously, obviously, I'm massively generalising here that it is definitely

to do. And it's certainly like not applauded or like, you know, people aren't like go-year, adultery,

fabulous. But I would say in general, I've noticed that it's less of a taboo than I've seen depicted

in American sort of TV shows, films, etc. And that's just quite interesting. Yep. So to go to

question, yes, and through there are lots of aristocratic marriages where they have a fabulous

time going to, you know, Polo and shooting weekends and on yachts with all their friends. And then

it's kind of known that he, you know, does does his business, perhaps in the Ritz with somebody else.

Man, that's a reality show. I want to see the older couple and then the mistress that's on the side.

I love, I love the real house. The ladies of London is like women who have, and actually,

I would say this, but real house was London also. Both of those casts are women who've like lived

a life, have several iterations of life who've had, you know, divorces and things that have

knocked them down. And I think like not to kick this show too badly. But like one of the things that

didn't quite work about the Rony reboot is that there weren't enough of those, I mean, there were

those stories on the show. Well, there, there were just promotion, promotion, branding, branding,

branding. There was no part to let anyone who showed up with a clear sort of five point marketing

plan about what they wanted to get out of the show. That's not all of them. But like in general,

that was the vibe I got. It left me cold. Whereas I think when you've got women that have lived

so many lives, they're just generally going to approach things in a slightly different way. And

I think that they've, in general, I actually think perhaps there's a slight till in that I'm,

maybe this is Rose tinted, but I'm hoping that there's a till in towards that again in housewives,

to segue to Beverly Hills. Rachel Zo is a great example of someone who could hardly be more,

how old school reality TV is she? Like she is someone who has been on reality TV before social media.

So she's like, this is how you do it. It reminds me of what reality shows used to be like

like before I was like, it's lovely. She is just made for this, made for, I mean, I could watch

you professionals all day. Like she is just has that delivery. And also so side note to the listeners,

I spent the day with Rachel Zo at Bravocon before the show. So she was announced before the show aired.

So she was at Bravocon. So I basically was like riding around with her in a little buggy

at Bravocon. Speak interviewing her before her sort of big return. Which was really interesting

because the last time that she was on TV, as I just said, there was no, there was certainly no Bravocon,

no Instagram, you know, she was very much like pre all of that. So she was re-entering the

row of us as it as a completely different beast. And it's refreshing to me that so far she's

approaching it in much the same way as she was before. And she's someone who's lived a life,

you know, she's traveled the world. She's worked with celebrity. She's worked with designers.

She's now divorced. She's got things to share in a way that I think, I mean, I don't want to

sound ages about it, but not all of the younger women have that in the same way or at least want

to share it in a way that it feels more layered. And I think that's what makes a great housewife

in part is just like having lived a life. Yes. To your point about Americans and sort of the

constant shilling of products and a persona, I think Amanda sort of exemplifies that.

But I think you're so conscious of her identity construction that she has to,

she can right thing it. Yes, she has to talk to you about her status all the time. And I think

she does that because she thinks all of the stories that, you know, sort of a masculator partner

about how she's bought a home and, you know, with her money and kind of discounting anything that

he has offered financially, it's all part of validating the transformation of her life.

And that reinforces her personal brand. And then she's, she's almost trying to prove to you

that the system in which she's set up will work for you. So everything she says goes back to her

brand. Whereas with Rachel, you feel like she's allowing you to live. She's sort of like placing

you in the middle of her life. So when she's in the kitchen with her kids and she's talking about

the divorce while I'll be it that's sort of uncomfortable. I think a lot of people are like,

I'm grateful that you're sharing this with us. But should you be having this discussion with

your sons on TV that's neither here nor there. But she's placing us in the middle of her life

whereas Amanda, we, we just feel like she's, it's like an infomercial in every moment that she's

on screen. I think that's such a good way of putting it. And I really wanted to speak on this

podcast about the Hamptons trip because I just felt like it was so old school housewives to me

in the best way as in like taking to the cast that you're actually with, right? That you're like,

these are people that I would invite. Like, I'm not just in everyone because production told me to.

So first of all, just having the confidence to do just a small trip. Secondly, like going to the

Hamptons and like staying in a, in a place that your friend, you know, it's her friend's house,

I think, right? So yeah, not a hotel, but someone's home. Yeah, someone's house in a place

that she would actually stay if she was going there, right? And then like doing all the things that

she would do, like going to the restaurant she goes to, like with her sister and just like friends

of hers, like around, like, I think that they've lost the actually sometimes that provides us with

the texture of a person and of a world like to me that felt more, we talk about aspirational on

Housewives. To me, that was way more aspirational than a trip that's clearly been planned to the

nth degree by production and that there's eight of them all around the table. With a concert at a hotel,

yeah. To me, Rachel's trip was like way more aspirational because it's like, that's her actual,

that's what she, that's her life. Like, these are, she's staying in this place because it's got the

space, but it's also someone she knows. Her parents go to the Hamptons all the time. Oh, look,

there's her parents. There's her sister. Like, they're going to a restaurant that she goes,

oh, look, there's Donna Karen. It was like, okay, this is the texture of Rachel's O. And I think

Dari and Kyla, she both said that in different ways. Like, I feel like this is Rachel's world or

something like that. And that's what Housewives is supposed to be. It's supposed to take us into

Beverly Hills, Potomac, these women's worlds. And it made me realize how the sort of the, I guess,

production behind, which absolutely needs to happen on these shows, like to organize things

and everything. Sometimes, it sucks some of that not only organically, but actual aspiration out of

it because it feels so coordinated by production as opposed to like something they'd actually be doing.

Like, you know, do you see what I mean? Does that make sense? I also think if you have a housewife

and they don't give you access to the people in their life, their friends or their family,

it's because they're working over time to cultivate a narrative of who they want you to believe

them to be. But when you have a housewife like Rachel who opens their entire life, like these are

my parents, this is my sister, these are my friends, you feel like that's a more authentic version of

themselves. Oh, completely. And I think, yes, to your point about the boys, like, I definitely,

what you said is exactly true. Like, I had to, like, a devil in an angel on my shoulder where I was

okay, this is very compelling television, like, objectively. But it's also a bit of that, like,

oh, like, I hope this doesn't. I don't want those boys to feel sad that, you know, they're like

20-year-olds in the future. And they have to see that replay. And they're constantly reminded of

this weird moment in their life where their parents were splitting up. And then people ask

them about it all the time because that will happen. What was that like when you were 10 and you were

in the kitchen, and your mom was talking to you about your parents splitting? I will say side note

to this is like, my parents got divorced at almost the exact same age. And I also have one

brother. So the whole dynamic, I was like, oh, this is like really, really familiar. I know,

like, not to go into this, but like, there's other details in the story that are familiar. And,

yeah, it was definitely like, oh, God, this is a little bit triggering to watch this.

It's clear there are elements of indiscretions that were found on a phone. And she doesn't totally go

there. And you see that she's walking this delicate, she has this delicate dance where

she's going to go through like some sort of court situation. She's going to have to go through

lawyers and a judge with respect to a divorce and custody. And you don't want any of those things

that you have set on television to hinder negotiations. Speaking of which, so I'm going to

defend Amanda for one second, right? I will too. She was totally set up with that whole thing,

like justice for Amanda with that one thing. So she was totally set up and she also was right. And

Kyle was also right. I basically think that Doree is behaving like ridiculously with this whole

divorce thing. And I mean, Kyle said it herself. Doree once, yes, people aren't her who are going

to agree with everything she says to which I say, maybe a reality show is not the best forum for

you at this precisely. Ultimately, you can't expect everyone to agree with you on a reality show

that's about essentially litigating your personal lives. And also like, what I really didn't like

was this notion of like, Kyle's given PK more ammunition against me or whatever. I'm like,

you can't go on a show and then be like, everything you say about me is potential ammunition

format, like use that as a shield from from criticism. Like, like anything anyone says about her,

like, is out there in the public domain. And also, let's be real like PK is not going to be

like referencing something, Kyle, which should set about Doree on Beverly Hills in their

divorce life this week. Yeah, also don't put that on me. That's something nice. And a TV show

is irreparably going to damage the relationship that your children have with their father.

Exactly. And what I do think is interesting, though, is how differently.

So one thing that kind of keeps driving me a little bit crazy is like Doree's eldest child,

Jagger, is like the same age as Rachel's youngest child. But like, he's not, he's like 11. I think

Rachel's youngest child is 12. Like, they're very similar age, right? And she keeps going on

about like her, her children are like, really young. And I'm like, girl, I know that your children

always seem young to you. But like, he's not that young. Like, he's going to be able to do

like, and I mean, you could argue that Rachel's being too transparent. Like, I sort of think

that there's like downsides to both really like, well, which is by the way, the best thing,

because we can all kind of use that as a template, you know, in discussions with other people

that are going through a split. Like, he got me this way or that way. Like, I mean, I don't agree

with Doree. Like, essentially, totally shielding the kids for trying to, I don't think that's

possible. But like, trying to shield them from basically everything, I think is like that

must feel good in the moment. But my instinct is that that will come back to buy you equally

Rachel's like all like full transparency, like, or what looks like quite full transparency.

I think opens you up to other things down the road as well. I don't think there's like a full

suit. Like, there's no perfect way to get divorced. Like, I think that it's probably somewhere

in the middle is probably the best choice. But I think that, yeah, like Doree, like, I mean,

honestly, this just goes to show how much Doree and I are not the same person. Like, she,

you know, all the stuff she was saying about like, how she tells the kids all this stuff about PK

that's like, she creates a version of him and stuff. Again, like, I can totally see on a human

level how like you must just want to do that to save your child any type of pain. But I also,

I worry about that in the long run. Like, you don't want to create this version of him that's like

perfect because he's not like, you know, he's not at some stage. They're going to have to

realize they're going to work that out. You know, and it's going to become, it's going to be

difficult. So I think, yeah, it's interesting to see them both going through like a divorce at

the same time and see how they're handling it. But also, can I just say, how are funny? Like Kyle

Richards, Kyle, it's so like she's got such a superhero or she complex, right? She's

spiritually the middle because she's like, I think she gets an immense amount of gratification

from being the sort of the good one, the one that's like dependable and the one that isn't like

the other two. And I think that she's, she's like that with her divorce. She's like, I'm going

to have the best divorce anyone's ever had. My divorce is going to be squeaky clean.

Well, I think it's, I think it's actually people pleasing. I think she's had to be a people

pleaser her whole life. Completely. So she's people pleasing her way through this divorce. But it's

like I think what Doree is partly reacting against not to defend or read too much. But I do think

there is a sense there's a slight, there is just a slight judgeyness about like my divorce is

going fine. Like I just don't understand. Like I think that Kyle does have this superiority

with it a little bit. And also it's like apples and oranges. Like Kyle is not dealing with custody

disputes. Like she's got, you know, one daughter who's underage. And I think she's 16 or 17,

like they do whatever they want on that age anyway. And they've not started the real thing is

they've not started dividing the money, which is when that tends to be in my experience,

when divorces get very messy. So. Well, I'm sure they are having a lot of discussions offline

that are very tenduous, but she certainly does a very good job of dissuading anybody from asking

any of those probing questions. I feel like we're in the same camp here where I believe that

I don't believe they're going to get back together, but I believe that Kyle wants to get back

together with him. And basically my whole theory on the divorce is that Kyle wanted him to

like fight for her and wanted him to be like, oh, fuck, my wife's like almost walking out on me.

Like I'm going to go like, you know, move heaven and earth. Like,

the common new park like give her whatever she wants. Well, in the end, what happened was he was

like, okay, and then went off and ran away to ask him for at least 20 year olds and he's

living his best life. And now, you know, both of them have had their fun. And now I think Kyle's like,

oh, I could maybe get my together and she's waiting for him to have that moment, but he's just

totally checked out. So I think the I also think she just wants the family unit back. I think that's

more important to her than anything, but I think it's hard because I think once a man starts

dating 20, 25 year olds, I don't know, can they ever go back to dating a woman who's older again?

I saw some funny podcast thing the other day. And it was like, when I went to see an order in

an apparel spritz and they were saying like, that's a 25 year old. Yeah, that's when he that's

when he orders when he goes out with younger girls. Yeah, I was like a DJ now because a lot of

older men choose younger women because they think it makes them look younger. That's why they

grow out their hair too. That's all of a sudden they want to like get a sports car. It's either

clinging to any like minuscule memory of their youth. Do you think though that like

Mauricio, obviously, one thing that's been interesting about this whole separation is seeing how

quite clearly he loves the cameras. Like I never really, I mean, I never really clocked that

before in such a like now it's that she like people are making jokes like, where's Mauricio

and the real housewives of Long Island? Like he's everywhere. Yeah, I feel like Kyle didn't see

that either. And then when he was on dancing with the stars, that was like a boner killer for her.

She was like, wait, what? I think it gives her the egg. Yeah. Which to me, I think, right?

The correct, I hate to police people's feelings, but the correct response if you're

separating from a real housewife is thank fuck. I never have to be on that show again. Like,

oh my god, washing my hands of it. Thank goodness. Like, you know, people like, there's people

like they're like Eddie judge, for example, like who would just be like, oh my god. Yeah, he's fine

to go in the in the in the sidelines. He's okay with that. But again, Eddie's in a marriage,

but Mauricio is dating her women. So of course, now that's another like the extension of youth.

Like I'm on dancing with the stars. Maybe I can be on love Island. He he's trying to reverse

a his age. Yeah, pardon me, one is whether it's the Netflix show go canceled.

He's still got it in his Instagram bio, which I just said, um, so maybe there's a part of him

that likes the, you know, the exposure, the perhaps the publicity for the business. Like there's

probably, I mean, rumor has it. Their door or one of their doors is on the next chat LA that's

upcoming. So I'm sure that he's going to wheezing his way in there wherever he can. Honestly,

maybe that's a neat segue to like, yeah, like to me, housewives is really about. I think there's

something so comforting to me about the fact that I was really thinking about this the other day

because it's actually the 20th anniversary of housewives in on the 22nd of March with the first

episode, the OC aired. And yeah, like this idea of like Vicky, Vicky Gumbelson, for example,

she was 14, 9 or 50 when, or like in her late, maybe 47, like late 40s when she started filming.

And she, yeah, like going back to what I was saying, she, you know, she lived a life. She'd

been in the Midwest. She divorced someone. She built her whole business. She, you know, she,

she changed her whole life. She'd been married again. Her kids were now about to go off to college

and she was starting this whole new phase of life. To me, there's something really comforting

about that being modeled for you on a television show that actually you, you know, we might not all

have the same lifestyles as the real housewives, but you can change your life in different ways.

That doesn't have to mean financially. It can mean lots of different ways of changing your life

reinventing yourself. Even like Bethany, like, you know, not finding Skinny Girl until she was like

38 and not really knowing, not really finding her exact thing that she was her kind of good idea.

Having tried many, many things and just never just being good at things, but it never quite

taking off. Like there's lots of optimism in those phases of life for me. And I think that's

partly what keeps me coming back to the franchise. Yeah, I think like life transitions are always

endlessly fascinating to me. Exactly. And by the way, I've been listening to Lisa Renaissance

book. I don't know if you've read it or listened to it. Well, I don't feel like I need to because

there's so many clips about it. So you do need to, and I agree with you, I thought the exact same.

I was like, oh, this has been aggregate. I will, all of this has been aggregate in on Instagram.

I actually, so I'm only three chapters in, but it's really kind of a lot of it is about her mother

and her life. It's actually not, I know that there is a lot of high-spice stuff in the book to come,

but it's, it's more, it's kind of like a more of a memoir than than I expected it to be.

A lot of a lot of it is her talking about her mother and like different stages of life that

her mother was at and that she's been at and like sort of seeing, seeing her. So I think it, honestly,

to me, it's very much like someone who's grieving and it has. So like a love letter to our mother.

And even using the, using the book as to say things that they perhaps weren't able to say

or didn't think of at the time. But again, brought me back to housewives as like, oh, this is the,

this in some ways, was the perfect medium for this person because

there's clearly an understanding there of different eras of life and being able to change

yourself. I mean, she was going to call the book Renaissance, but she just went against the title,

she said in the book, but being able to renovate yourself, it's kind of like her thing. One of her

brands is renovation. But I think that housewives does like, whether it's, whether it's whether we're

entering a new phase of life or entering a new season, like there is always a season, not just

of life, but a season of housewives, there's always a chance to change yourself. Perhaps in one of

the things that housewives shows us is that like friendship, it gives us these really weird like rhythms,

doesn't it? We're like friendship. Yeah. Friendships reset from year to year on housewives,

which is like so not what happens in the real world. But like we love that because the reunions

provide that kind of like almost line that's drawn before and after. Yes, friendships reset,

but then also these women reset. And I actually think that must be in some ways very nerve-wracking

because if you've had a fabulous season, oh my god, are they going to come for me?

But in some ways, if you've not had a good season, it must be kind of a relief because I mean,

a year in terms of life is actually not that long. Is it like to then be able to get a chance to

burn? Like that must actually be quite nice. Like if you're a time or a judge, you get a yearly chance

to redeem yourself and then fumble the attempt every year. I do think it's enormously stressful for

them though. I think that it becomes so stressful. They're in their head all the time. And that's

why I think some people seem like out of it when they're filming. They're too in their head.

I think one must be very stressful. And this is actually something that I've been thinking about

with Amanda is I would love to see the housewives like employed on like two-year contracts or like

multiple years. Oh, please. I wish that never will never happen. It'll never happen.

But I believe that like a lot of the anxiety comes from like employment and anxiety, right?

Like simply, you can make anxiety. Like in this constant state of

precarity when it comes to your main job, like that must be, I would say is a big reason why a lot

of them must seem so stressed all the time because they're like messing up their chance,

you know, fumbling the season or whatever. But yes, it will never happen. But I would love that,

especially for new wives, because Amanda, like you say, she's got this like almost like,

like it feels like she's above me with like a pillow, like putting over my face and like

telling me about her manifestation course is like home run over again. Like I feel like it's like

she's like force feeding me her brand. Yeah, like a guru, like just one of the tapes and by the

yeah, by the pamphlets. She knew she had two seasons. I'm a bit like would she, I mean, maybe I'm

as bad example, because I think that that's just she would be just as insufferable, right? But like

maybe somebody else would be less frantic about the way that she's

if she knew that she had like more time to land the plane, you know, right now it's like she's

going to get kicked 12 any seconds. So she's like, and the brand again, and the brand, the

manifestation, the man, I bought this, I bought that, I'm paying. Yeah. And to your point earlier,

like for the ladies of London, the reboot, some of them have generational wealth. So it doesn't matter

if they don't come back for another season of a show. So they're less panicked. Whereas the

Americans, it makes you start to wonder, why were you then cast in the first place? If you

say that you have this incredible lifestyle and you're so wealthy, why do you seem so panicked

about not having the opportunity to come back for another season? Oh, no, absolutely. I think

that part of it is like part of his financial part of it's just like honestly not wanting to be

out of the fame probably, like not wanting to be forgotten about. I think if you're in the bravo

sphere, like imagine one minute bring a bravo con on that, you know, the blue carpet or on the

stage and everyone's screaming for you. And then the next you're watching other people do that,

like it must be, it must give a very twisted sense of self-worth in your brain.

That level of, especially because the housewives, like they occupy with the interesting spot

in the culture, especially now where there are like literal like a list celebrities to some people,

like like if I saw, you know, the grandaume walking down the street, I'd be like, oh my god,

like, but like most other people in the street would have any idea. She was like, but then to people

like, yeah, like Rihanna, she's famous, but like to like, you know, my mother would have no idea

who she is. So that's a very intense thing because you're like everything to some people,

like everything to some people, but then not to others. So you get a real that I would imagine

that. In some ways, more intoxicating to like go through life as like everything to some people.

Yeah. Well, tell everybody what you're working on right now.

So right now, right this week, I'm working on a housewives anniversary essay for the car,

which should be our next week, which I'm very excited about. It's a kind of retrospective on

the housewife archetype, how the real housewives has upended that and revolutionized that in some

ways for good and bad. So that's something I've been a lot of the things we've been speaking about

in this conversation has been very near the top of my mind. So I've been doing that. And yeah,

it's just that's the main thing I'm working on this week, but I've got some TBC projects that I

cannot announce yet. Very mysterious that I will be back to talk about more in the future.

Sure. I think you'll have. And then tell everybody where they can follow you and read all of your

stuff too. So I'm on Instagram and X at Louis Staples L.O.I.S. for the Americans. L.O.I.S.

STAP LES. So that's where you can catch me. That's where you can find most of my stuff.

That's where I post most of my articles and occasionally opinions about the housewives and memes

and all the rest of it. I mean, it is a perfect writer need. It's good. So you know what? My mom

in the hospital, she wrote, she was writing names down because she was like, oh, I want to see

what they look like written down. So now my pro tip to anyone that I know that has a child is like

write down because every time she sees my name written down, she's smug about it because she's like,

oh, I knew that was going to look good written down. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you was always.

Thank you for having me.

I want to thank my great guest, Louie, and remind you to make sure that you click subscribe.

Please leave a five star review. Join the Facebook group reality life with Kate Casey.

Bonus episodes are on Apple and on Patreon. You can also get my What to Watch list at

kkc.substac.com. And follow me on social media. I'm on Instagram at at kkcca TikTok. It's KKC.

And Twitter threads in blue sky at at kkc. Check back tomorrow for an all new episode with

Whitner from Southern Charm.

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