Ep#349: Through the Winds Mighty Blow - An Interview with Mars Triumph

Music

Monsters, madness, and magic.

Alright folks, welcome to the Monsters, madness, and magic podcast. I'm your host Justin,

here with a quick word before we dive in. Now in this episode, I chat with

the musician and artist, Mars Triumph, about heavy metal, Italian horror, mythology,

man-a-war, graveyards, and more. As always, thank you all for listening out there,

and without further ado, here you go.

First of all, man, thank you for giving me some of your time. I really appreciate it.

Big fan of you. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you. Just to get started, man,

a question I like to ask everyone at the beginning is, just take us back in time.

You're a little kid. Now when you're a little kid, would you consider yourself a

book reader, a fort builder, troublemaker, or all of the above?

Problem major. Definitely. And the big one. What kind of trouble?

Any kind. I always be in trouble, always be defensive. Back in the days, no internet,

no mobile phones, only looking for troubles and maybe doing many, many, many bizarre things.

What year were you born? I'm 14 years old now. Okay, okay. So when you think back to your

childhood, where you grew up in Greece, was it more of a, was it in the city?

No, were you in the countryside? I was something in the middle. I was at the summertime,

we were at our village. We have a village near Athens, and we spend our vacations,

let's say, in the near of the sea. And on the wintertime, you know, with school and stuff like

that, we were in Athens. The sheet happens always in the city. The main, the main, the main

problems. So when you're growing up, is there either of your parents or maybe someone in your

family, are they musicians or artists or anything like that? No, no, no. I'm not from that kind of

family. Outside of music, man, I know you do a lot of painting yourself. What kind of came first

for you? Were you doing paintings in art first or was it music? Do they kind of come together?

No, I was, I'm a musician since I remember myself. And I studied some years, classic guitar,

classical guitar and the electric guitar. Then I go to a piano, some vocals and stuff like that. But

then I live the music studies and I started to make bands and write my own music. And then

painting came inside the, inside the quarantine because I needed to express myself more often.

So I have to find something to, you know, to express myself. And that's why I started painting a

lot. Mainly, mainly I'm a musician, not a painter, mainly. But you're very fucking good at it,

though. Thank you. Thank you. I like painting a lot. Are there any painters that,

like, who are some of your personal favorites? Do you have any inspirations that you draw from

or anything like that? Yeah, of course. Of course. Sea grapes, Paolo Girardi, from the, from the

guys who are in the metal scene. I like also Elirán Cantor. It's a fantastic painter. I really like

style. And, and also Frazet, I, you know, get a jelly, stuff like that, more old students.

Yeah, yeah. That dealer, Conan. Classics. Classics stuff, yeah.

What was your, what was your exposure to Frazetta? Was it, you know, code and stuff back in the day?

Yeah. It's a first, first I see his Conan work. And I was too young. And I was fucking amazed.

I was fucking amazed. He's so good. He was so good. So good.

Yeah. So when you're painting yourself, do you have an idea of, I guess, is the picture fully

formed in your mind? And then that's what comes out on the canvas. Are you changing as you go?

Yeah, that's why I'm painting with oil colors because I'm not a bit more chaotic, more abstract.

Okay, sometimes I build more, I build forms and more even more, how can I say it, but overall,

I'm more into abstract because I don't know, I have, I haven't got the patience to, you know,

to shape things properly and all that kind of stuff. And I like more of that mix of colors and

faces like, you know, has any of triumphers music been inspired by artwork? No. No. It's a, usually, I have

the music, for example, on storming the walls. I have first the music and then I take the canvas

and build the art called cover. So just going back to your childhood again, man, like,

when you think about movies, when you think about movies that you grew up on, what some movies come

to mind? Robocopes, that fucking terminator destroyers. You know, I watch again and again,

I remember myself, watch again and again, the first scene from terminator who goes back to

the future, who goes to the future. And there is a tank, a robot, a tank of grassy scales and

never but exciting. And I was repeating again and again and again and again and again and again.

Back and forth, back and forth, long day.

A lot of the rings after, came after the trilogy. I am a big fan of the series.

Not the latest one from Amazon. Yeah, nobody is.

And also, I like horror movies like, you know, from classics to exorcist or Dario Antendos,

you know, all the other films, all the kind of classic stuff, you know, tombs of the blinded.

Great. I'm a big fan of horror movies. In general, I like what I'm watching movies a lot.

A lot. Yeah, Argentos horror movies have some of the best soundtracks.

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty great. Did you, uh, was going into the cinema, a big deal for you when

you were a kid? Or just going to the theaters to watch a movie? Are you watching from home?

Um, I both, both. When I have the chance, always, I'm going into the cinema, especially when, now,

now, when I, when they play the movie, I really, I mean, really interested in, I'm going to the

cinema. Just on the subject of horror movies, what's the last great horror movie that you saw,

like a recent one? A recent one. Now I can't remember. I'm watching a lot, and now I'm

can remember, especially with Netflix, we have the counting. But if it comes to a great one,

no, I don't think the latest movies are don't even get close to what, for example, the Italian horror scene.

Yeah, I keep the days. They are all the scenarios of something like recycling, you know,

the family or students go take a house and something bad happens. And

yeah, always the same. Maybe that's people, maybe that's what people ask to see.

Yeah, yeah, they make money. That's why they make them. Yeah, it's more like, like that. Yeah.

Have you, uh, are you a fan of Robert Eggers you ever seen in his movies?

Yeah, no, no. Yeah, I think he has the witch. He has, uh, notes for our two, the most, the most

recent one. Yeah. I think he's probably the best. The witch, the witch is, the witch is a great one.

Yeah. Yeah. I said, maybe it's one of, yeah, but not now I remember, yeah, maybe it's one of the

greatest of the greatest movies of all kind of, in the recent years. I think it's, uh,

2019 or 18, the witch. Yeah, it wasn't too long ago. It was pretty recent. I can't remember what

year it came out, but I'm a fan of his, like when it comes to modern horror, I think he does the

best work because he actually, he used to be, before he was a director, he was a production designer.

So the, all the sets and like all the locations that he does, there's like, uh, it just,

there's a, there's an atmosphere to his movies is the way I see it. You know, you can feel it.

Yeah, man, and that, that, what makes me so, so, uh, impressed with the witch and, uh, it's,

that you don't need many things or you know, CGI or special effects or you just need a fucking gold.

That's all it takes.

In that same vein, you know, I like to ask everyone of what scared you when you were a kid.

It doesn't have to be a movie. It can be a movie, but just what scared you?

Graviets. Hmm. Yeah.

They're back in my village where, you know, when we are, the, the times we work together, the

guys we work together and having fun, you know, and tell the web stories. We always told stories

about Graviets and someone rise from the dead, some old guy or old lady, you know, and they're

roaming in the streets of the village and blah, blah. And I, my, my, my house where we're living in

the village was just 50 meters from the graveyard. Oh, shit. When I, when you are in toilets, for

example, and the window sees in the graveyard and at the night time, you just see only the candles

and imagine that if you're a young man and young child. Wow. And it's, it's even more creepy.

Well, at least to me, thinking about it is more creepy because, sorry, compared to Greece,

America's fairly young. So we could have a graveyard that's like, you may be from the late 1800s.

And that's super old to us, but that's, that's nothing compared to probably some of the stuff

that you guys have out there. Right. That's why I get so stuck with King Diamond because of,

you know, all that kind of weird stories with, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I like to, I usually wait

to the end to ask this, but we're on the subject of, have you ever had an experience, a supernatural

experience or anything like that in your life? I think so, but I don't know if I want to talk it.

It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. I understand. It's a, because you know, maybe someone will say,

oh, you're, I can't raise you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got you, man. No, no, no, no, don't worry about

it. So, for sure, I think the world is not just what we see. Right. So you would not, not talking

about that experience, but you would consider yourself spiritual. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

a deeply spiritual person, yeah, and religious. Okay. Cool, cool. Just so growing up, what record

you're spending for you? What are you listening to? As early as a kid, as a kid. As a kid.

My first album, my first rock, here in metal album, it was in rock from Deep Purple.

Yeah, and I have a cassette, you know, a tape, yeah, from a cozy, cozy of mine. And in that

tape, it was like a compilation of heavy metal. And I remember the compilation calls,

uh, Prase Wall. And it's a mix of annihilator, uh, kingdom, uh, motorhead,

Sodom, paradox, uh, obituary, death, uh, Halloween. It was, you know,

it's really kind of, it's really good. Hey, it meets, you know, it meets compilation. And

that's why I think I have so much love for many metal sounds in it. Yeah.

I learned to listen to all kinds of stuff, all kinds of heavy metal sounds, not to stuck in just one.

Yeah, I could, you can kind of hear that in triumph for you. You know, you guys aren't just

strictly one there. There this, there's a lot of flow in it. That's not something that happened

in one day, or in a few years. It's my mindset since I'm started listen music. I start listen to

hear metal music with this compilation and this compilation was mixed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So what about, what was your first, the first time you heard Man of War?

Wow. Yeah. It's, uh, I have the, the second, uh, tape I have with compilation.

The first one was the power of the shot. Mm-hmm. And I was, uh, 13 years old. And when I first

listened to Man of War to that song, I didn't, I didn't have to hear anything from Man of War.

It was the first song I ever had of them. And believe me, I was going back and back and back

for more than a month. I didn't listen anything else. It was a fucking shock for me. I don't know why,

maybe the production of Triumph of Steel, I don't know, but I was like, this is, this is through

hearing metal. I don't remember exactly what I was thinking, but I repeated the song constantly

all the time. Yeah, man. And that's what I wanted to ask you, because your vocal style is very

similar to Eric Adams. Was, was that a, did you try to, to mimic him early on and then find

your own voice, or did you just happen to sound like that? Okay, I think it's, it's, uh, that

my voice came out naturally. I'm not trying to, you know, I have also one of my favorites

favorite singers. It's also, but this is not. Yeah. Or, uh, the Angela, I always have these guys in

my mind, because I grew up with their music. They have, uh, said my view of, uh, how to sing.

And that's why it came to me naturally to sing like that. Yeah. It's so deeply connected with

my brain cells, you know, but their voices that I'm always on their path, but I'm listening myself

again and again and again and again from record to record. I'm trying to elevate my, my stop, my,

you know, my personal taste. Yeah. And just to tell you, man, while I'm while we're talking,

you're like, you're one of the best people doing it right now. Like, you're fucking great.

Thank you, man. Thank you. Going back in time a little bit, what was the first concert that you

went to? We would play it back in the days with my band from school. In Athens, in the small

club, we played like a death in a death thrust band. And in a death thrust festival. And I think,

I, if I remember right, uh, the headliners who were also guys from school in that festival,

I was then no congregation. If you know them, I'm not familiar. No.

Okay. It's a death metal band from Greece. It's quite popular in the, okay. Yes. And I think

that that's the first experience with 20 people at the end. You got to start somewhere.

It just seems to me that some of the best heavy metal coming out recently is coming from Greece.

What, what is it with Greece and the heavy metal scene? Like, why is it so, why is it so prominent

there? Why do you think? I don't think I'm so, uh, I, I'm not fully agree with you. But, uh, Greece has

indeed a really great scene in many, in, in all metal genres, especially in the extreme.

Mm-hmm. The Greek extreme metal is so strong, so strong. But when we come to heavy metal,

yeah, I said, I said heavy metal, but you know, I've met more like just metal in general.

Metal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I agree with you. Yeah. No, it's okay. It's okay.

Why do you think so many great musicians in the metal genre? Is there something about Greece that

just breeds that sort of music? Or is it, there's a lot of creative people? Or what do you think?

Well, I think there are many people that want to do something to, to make a step through, you know,

what it is through music and because we are somehow in the back, you know, we are not in the capital of

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the capital of the capital of heavy metal, who is

Jeremiah or central Europe, we are trying, we are double, we are double the trying to achieve things.

Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of Greek bands, you've, you've done some artwork for one of my personal favorite

Greek metal bands riding Christ. Yeah. Did they approach you to do that? How did that work out?

Oh, Sykes is a very good friend of mine. Wow. Wow. That's cool. Yeah.

Ha. It's back in the corona. We have a common friend. Uh-huh. And we meet each other. We are going for coffee and stuff like that.

Start to talk about many in the metal scene, you know,

Sykes also have listened to the triumphant album before anything came out. Wow. Shit.

He's one of the, one of the first people who weathered here, the storming, the wars before it's released.

And, uh, yeah, we have a great conversation about how to, he always give me the greatest advice

of what to do, you know, and not to get hurt, the band, and myself, you know, to avoid

bad things and try to, I fully respect Sykes. I was going to say it's a great person to learn from.

Yeah. Yeah. When you're performing live, is, is a stage fry ever an issue for you?

Not at all. Not at all. It's, uh, one of the moments I'm waiting, uh, the most. I really like

beyond stage. Uh, I feel like I feel free when I'm on stage. I feel that I can give, uh, what,

exactly what I have in my mind for trying for when I am on stage because I really like the

connection between me and the audience. Yeah. Yeah. And this is irreplaceable.

It's kind of like, uh, because I speak with a lot of actors on the show and a lot of actors start

on doing theater plays. And so, so even if someone transitions to doing film and television,

a lot of them will say, you know, but if it wasn't for the money, I would prefer to stay in the theater

because there's, there's something you can't replace with a live audience because there's almost

an energy like the, you're just feet off of it. There's a, yeah, there's that connection between theater

and, uh, I mean, because, you know, performing music is almost like theater if you're putting on a

performance. Yeah, it's almost like theater. You see the audience live. Yeah. You see their,

their expressions. If they are happy or they are not. If they are excited. If they are sad. If

you know, you see everything. Mm-hmm. When you play on a movie or you go to a record to write

an album, you show only a microphone or a camera or stuff like that. You don't feel what the other

feel. I have never understood the kind of person that could, uh, if you're getting paid to videotape

show, that's one thing. But if you're just in the crowd trying to experience it as a fan, just

live in the moment. You're right. You're right. I totally agree with that. I wanted to ask you

because this is a mutual friend of ours and I was just talking to him on yesterday. Uh, Jordan,

Wright City. Yeah. Yeah. He's a little crazy, too.

I will. I will. Uh, another fucking great band. By the way, Wright City, they just,

they're balls in the wall. Yeah. That's a great way to put it.

Yeah. Yeah. So just think how does triumph or come together as a band in the first place?

Like, do you got where you guys friends? Try for a lineup. It's, uh, two years. It's about two

years. The latest lineup. And, uh, we build that lineup to make triumph or a tour band. When we started,

the people who played in the, the first album, uh, can't follow the band into tour or

into many live dates and stuff like that. So we had to split ways, you know, and I had to find

other members. So I found that members and now we are full and we are friends. But we weren't

friends before. We met for a lot. We met for trying for and by the passion of two, three years, we,

now we are friends. So would you say that initially when the band first began, this is more

your, your vision, your artistic vision. And you would just, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay,

gotcha. Gotcha. Guys have released three albums in four years. Is that right? Yeah. Three

albums in four years. That's pretty, that's an insane output. Like, do you start writing immediately

after an album is done? Or do you already, did you already have a lot in the, in the bank, I guess?

Yeah, I have some ideas in the bank, but, uh, I always started from the, from,

to, to compose new tracks. And then if I have some ideas stored, I get used these ideas to enrich

the new songs. If a part is missing, you know, I'm searching from my bank or from my storage

from my music. Mainly, mainly, I focused on new material. The new mood, the new material,

the new mood and the new material. That's the most important. Yeah. Yeah. This for four years,

we are definitely on fire. Yeah. So composed and stuff like that. Yeah.

I mean, for me, man, uh, the most recent album, good look, anybody else trying to top that shit

this year. That's, that's number one, that's the number one album. I already told, already told

Jordan I was like, man, you guys, you guys are going to have to bring it. I read a really great

interview. And I wanted to tell you that I, uh, I read your crystal logic interview from the

web. Yeah, with Andreas. Yeah, great. And shout out to him. That's a great interview.

You speak a lot about the sacred locations in Greece and the interview. You know, it's full

of energy and spirit. And how does that affect your music? Because I know it's, it's a lot more

than just lyrics to you, right? If I speak, they wouldn't get full of tourists and they

wouldn't be no secret anymore. So you have, you have to come to Greece. And, and I will,

you know, we will go together. There you go. I like that. Black blind eye.

You got to keep them out of that. I can talk, I can talk about that. I can talk about that.

It was mountain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry. Yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's a, it's a very, very, very,

weird place. When I mean weird, I mean that you, when you finally arrive and you are up in the mountain,

you feeling, uh, you're rapidly feeling, you get the feeling of something happens here.

Yeah. Yeah. It's mountain that, uh, it grows all the time. So much mist.

And the mist moves out and gets in, moves out and gets in, and you feel the energy in the place.

Is so, the energy is so raw, so ancient, so primordial. Is the statue, also is the statue in

Sparta, the statue of Leonidas. It's, for me, it's amazing. I feel, I feel so, so strong,

when I visit that places, so deeply connected with my ancestors in that kind of places.

Yeah, that's, that's what I was getting at. And that, that feeling that those places make you

feel, do you try to, to put some of that in the music, if you can? Is that your goal? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And also, if you, if one day you will visit Olivia, the ancient Olivia, you will find out that

it's more, it's, it's more than just a touristy location. Mm-hmm. You will feel the energy

in the place. They build temples in that place because there is a reason. There are plenty of

energies around that place. Mm-hmm. When you visit that place, for example, we can have a talk again.

Got you, bro. I'll do that. That's my, my wife, I love that. And that's always so interesting to

me as a fan because I, I don't want to, you know, but I look for, I look for that in music

because I'm not from Greece, but I can feel something, I can feel something of it from you and

what you're doing. And so that is, that's very cool. Yeah, okay, but you are living in a part of

the Western civilization, the people who build the United States, the people who stand for the

United States, for example, Washington. Mm-hmm. Washington. He was a great Greek lover and

ancient Greek so deeply. He has a statue dressed like a ancient Greek. I think it's, I think that's

between us, the Western civilization for me is one. Okay, there is a womb, but

we are all children of the same mother. That's what I see in the Greece and the Western civilization

and that's the Greece is the womb, it's the mommy. Yeah, and we are all equally important because

everybody serves the same milk, let's say. Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to put it. You mentioned

how Homer's work specifically aligns with some of the songs. Could you just talk about like

which songs and how you sort of infuse some of Homer's works in there? Yeah, it's in the song

Ithaca and it's in the song Norsapitalia, the last song, the long one. Ithaca is a song about

all this is going back home and reaches his land, smell the flowers, you know, the aura,

the Jasmine and stuff like that and also have some personal touches, you know, back meanings because

I feel like I found also my place in life and that place called Music and Triumphur and has a

symbolic, you know, it's symbolic lyrics about my situation and our situations in life.

So, if you combine that, that's the meaning of Ithaca for Triumphur. Norsapitalia is from one of the

late, the last parts of Odyssey, when Odyssey finds the island of Ephesians, Ephesians were great

sailors, very wise people, they didn't get involved in wars and stuff like that, they lived alone

and they have very, very complex notical technology and now Zapitalia, it's called the ship,

it means the ship without captain, the ship without a machine, no rose, nothing, it's just the captain's

sleeping and the ship takes orders from captain's mind and moving the ship, that's the great gift

that Ephesians give to Odysseus, so he can back to Ithaca because, you know, he was, he has the

cares of Poseidon, so somehow the ship manages to escape the storms, you know, and something like a new

AI navigator. Just curious, I really like the way that you write lyrics man, have you ever

considered writing short stories or a book or anything like that? Fiction? Yeah, we are preparing,

that's a good, that's a good question, we are preparing a book that will be released in the next

two or three weeks. Wow, yeah, I'm not sure, I read, I write about the triangle universe,

but we find a proper, you know, a guy who is his job to write poems and, that's really cool,

man, and soon you will, you will see the book, I'll be purchasing it, you're doing the artwork,

right? Yeah, okay, we got the new kind of a solution. Yeah, wanted to ask you this, you know,

when we were talking about movies earlier, what would you say is the best movie that accurately

depicts Greek history? Let's say Troy. Troy does? It does a good job? Okay, nobody does, but

it does the best. Okay, okay, I like Troy too. Yeah, I think, because in that same interview, you've

mentioned the upcoming Odyssey movie, Christopher Nolan, and how, you know, it kind of looks.

They asked me, yeah, they asked me about what is my opinion on Nolan's movie, but firstly, I didn't,

we haven't seen the movie yet. Right. And secondly, that what I have so so far was a parody. Yeah,

yeah, absolutely part of this. Nolan has put Batman inside, he has put zombies inside,

he has put, it looks like a fantasy movie, if you know what I mean, you know what I'm saying? Yeah,

yeah, just speaking on performing live and triumphant for you, what's the most difficult song to

perform live, like vocally? Spirit Invictus, all are difficult. Yeah, what is the song? Of course,

it's me always the most problems. And no, just the spirit Invictus, all the others I have,

I have my way to man up them, but spirit has some, I was so excited in the studio when we arrived

in the song, but and I didn't thought about how this song will be live. And I was like screaming by

screaming devices of smarter soul to the heavens and to the gates of the original. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is a nice scream. And then the high scream ends and I was in and I forced another one,

double scream, which is dead. All links to you.

Well, as fans, we can't tell, so you do it, you hide it well if it's a problem for you.

Okay, I do something different, you know, you don't have to replicate the songs exactly.

Right, right. And I always do some other tricks to cover the, to get, you know, to cover the song,

to just curious, when did you discover that you had the singing voice? You know, was it by just

trying to sing along to songs when you were young or was it that kind of deal? Yeah, I think in

heavy metal, let's say in heavy metal because I was a screamer or doing growlings in other bands.

Yeah, but I'm not counting that shit. I'm talking about heavy metal singing and

lyrically, you know, and the clean voice, clean vocals. I think I found that I found my talent in my car.

That's a good place. Yeah, and that's the place I practice my talent a lot.

Yeah, there's no critics in the car. Yeah, I always put the more difficult songs to sing about.

By the time passing, I realized that I have more control, more power, more notes. I hit

notes more easily. Weird things. Yeah, dude. You're just speaking about Ithaca. That's a

fucking great song. I was, before we started recording, I had to go to the store and I just blasted

that shit on the way to the store. How do you decide what's going to be a single? Like, what

goes into that? You, you have the whole album and you're just like, you know what? This will be a

great single. How do you determine that? It was, it was a choice of, because I wanted to

present to use something different. Okay. The classic two, the two fast-paced songs, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I want to present to you something really different. And that's why I always choose black blood

because in the other albums, it was thunder. It was a arrival of the Avenger. It was songs,

speech songs. Yeah. Blood is more into black metal. It's more into buttery. And you know, if you leave,

if you, if you delete the vocals and you leave only the music structure is not so fancy.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's more pumping. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In both songs and again, black blood in Nisaka,

we wanted to present to you as a first example, something different that what we use.

Yeah, and it's a great single. And it is different. It makes your ears perk up. So,

what would you say is the best musical advice that you've been given and who gave it to you?

I don't think I have. Hey, sometimes that's the best advice. Figure it out. Yeah.

But maybe that what Joy Demire told me that you have to remain focused. And if you fail,

you have to try again. Mm-hmm. And if you fail, you have to try again and again until you make,

you make it. Yeah. I like that attitude. I like that advice. Yeah. I'm going to say definitely listen to that guy.

Stars will say no, but I say yes. I say yes, too.

Uh, Mars just to put a wrap up here. What's on the horizon for you in the band? You guys got

any more tours coming up? I know you just mentioned the book coming up soon. We are now in the

middle of booking the second leg of the albuk tour. Mm-hmm. We are trying to make another one

tour possible this year for piercing the heart of the world. And we're already planning the tour

of 2027. And we are already composing new albuk. Man, here we go. I was going to say,

knowing you guys, you'll probably have another album by next year. If you judge by the race.

Yeah. It's a good chance. Yeah. Well, thank you for giving me some of your time, man. I

appreciate it. Had a good time chatting with you. Thank you. It was a great interview. And I

really like that we took me back to my childhood to talk about great movies. That's a great,

great interview. Thank you. Thank you, Mars. You have a good day, man. You too. You too. Bye-bye.

All right, folks. That's a wrap. I hope you enjoyed that chat with Mars. As always,

thanks for listening. And we'll see you back next time.