Ep 371:  Mica Francis: How to Manage a Coercive Controller with Attorney Regina Ward Part 1

0:00Hey everybody, I just wanted to share the song that came to my head the other day and see if it encourages you. I hope it does. When she sang, she had such a way of you feeling close to God. Now, one, watch your mercy. That's what my family did to where to find me. Mika was 16 when she made church her life. She loved the church. She loved the people. Mika and John Paul met at Solid Rock. They looked like the ultimate couple. This is what I want my marriage to the client. Mika was influenced by John Paul because he was 15 years older than her. She just listened to his voice, a voice of a pastor, a voice of a mentor, and then a voice of a husband. She showed me that John Paul's signature was tattooed on her side permanently, like ownership. It kind of spiraled from there. I'll fight through the nail to get what I want, what I want is the only thing that matters. I don't care what you have to say.

1:00I think that he used the Bible over her. Your husband once said, God does not send an angel from heaven to take care of that. He physically took her out of her car and took her to the hospital. My voice is struggling. My hair is falling out of gain and weight. There's incredible danger in unmet need. She was speaking out about the abuse. Sexual, physical, psychological abuse. She needed a restraining order. Is it going to shutting down? Is it going to make him worse? Is it going to ramp it up? Walk away. Do you want to go to jail? Mika was being stalked 24-7. For her to drive an hour and a half into the middle of nowhere makes absolute zero sense. I think justice for Mika at this point just looks like the truth.

2:06Hey lovely listeners and welcome back to Crime Analyst and the Intelligence Cell. Today I'm joined by a very special guest who I have spoken to before but not on the microphone. So I'm very happy Regina that we are talking today on Crime Analyst. Please introduce yourself for my lovely listeners. Thank you so much for inviting me. I am thrilled to be here. I'm a big fan of yours so it means a lot to me to be on your show. And for those who don't know me, I am attorney Regina Wardam licensed in the state of South Carolina. And I've had a general practice for a little over 20 years now. And I primarily focused on family court types of cases but also have done criminal cases as well as personal injury. Civil litigation, I love civil litigation. Those were the practice areas for me. And many people will have seen you Regina in the number one Netflix show, the death of the pastor's wife, which is about Mika Francis. I call her Mika Francis because I know in court documents she wanted to be known as Mika Francis.

3:06Although she was still married to John Paul Miller but of course she wanted to separate and divorce and leave that relationship. And you were in the Netflix show and you represented Mika. And I have to say you were just incredible in the documentary. And the way that you responded to John Paul Miller's phone calls. I mean, there was one recorded call that we see you listening to. And you were just utterly brilliant in terms of how you handled him. And he effectively was saying, I think you know, or he said something like, I'm John Paul Miller. I think Mika hired you and you immediately put him in his place and say, well, you know that she hired me because you received the lawsuit two days before she died. So let's start with the facts. And it was just such a brilliant boundary for his type of character who doesn't really accept boundaries and wants to control the narrative.

4:14And I was just cheering you on. I mean, I have a sense of who you are, but just in that moment where you were very clearly still advocating for Mika. And he was trying to control the narrative and he was trying to manipulate you and his voice went so high. Like the key was unbelievable. And I genuinely don't know. I know it's such a serious case and it's had a profound impact on so many, but I don't know how you kept a straight face listening to him effectively go around the parent control wheel and have that pitch and try and manipulate you. And I just would not let him and you were fierce in your representation. And I'm glad that Mika found her way to you and that you're still speaking out on her behalf and you take it very, very seriously. So I know so many people have watched the documentary. You were one of my favorite parts of it, but I have to say her family and her friends did such a fantastic job of advocating for Mika on her behalf.

5:15And I was like, tell me how was it for you recording it, but also watching it. Did it do the things that you wanted it to do? Yeah, so you know, people, though you did a great job at my responses. I was just myself, you know, and when he, I guess I can't remember if he started calling like the day before or there. It was sometime before my office opened on that Monday. And of course, I know this type of behavior. I've recognized this 100 miles away, what he is. And also I've been working with Mika and, you know, of course, I had all these facts and background from her about the types of things that he was doing. So I just paid him on who he was. He thought that he's been used to doing and manipulating spin of the narrative for everybody in the world. And he's pretty proud of himself that he was able to do that with an entire congregation, you know, multiple over and over and over again. So whenever I got in that morning, sort of the backstory to that conversation or that telephone call to that recorded conversation is that when they got in that one in my receptionist, just like Mr. Miller's called a couple of times and left messages on the voicemail.

6:25And I was like, okay, I said just put him in the system. I said, I don't plan on returning his call, but let me know if he, you know, he calls back again. So of course, as soon as the clock ticked tonight, the phone, there he is calling. And so she's telling me she gets his own line and I go, mm-hmm. And I had already decided that it and when I talked to him, two things were going to happen. It was going to be when I told him that he could talk to me, got me answer in the phone. And when I was ready to hit that record button, because I was already obviously not going all of the facts of her case and all of the abuse and just treacherous hell that she had put her through. And I really had answers to what really went on. And I thought to myself, this no telling what he'll say. And I wasn't recording the call, you know, for me or anything. I was recording it because I've got maybe he'll trip up and say something that I can give to the FBI.

7:27I can give to somebody who worked, you know, because you never know. And people are talking, talking, talking, especially like him. You don't know what they're going to say. So I was like, I'm going to record it just in case. And I want to catch that because I don't want to Regina Ward said he said, no, I want you to hear what he said is those two of the things that happened there to just, oh, Regina, my poor casual friends. And I had a, the, the reminds me of another thing. I, you know, represented a lot of people associated with him. And one of them, which is public knowledge is Sam Rickman, he had sued Sam Rickman, you know, some ridiculous lawsuit. And so I was like, I'm just not going to stand for it. So when I was representing him, of course, the counter sued back against John Paul. And of course, he would not do the right thing and just dismiss it and let us roll on. He wanted to take it all the way to try because he wanted his day in court. He thought he was going to convince the jury. You know, that he deserved to get a verdict in his favor way got woke up to that that didn't happen for him. The verdict was in Sam's favor. But I was telling you that to say this that he, he called me Regina and court. And I just, I slammed him immediately.

8:38verbally, obviously. And I said, you will not refer to me as Regina. You will call me attorney ward. That's it. And I could hear the whole court wrong. You know, and so he, he had felt that I mean, he remembered that from book four. But that was the one thing I kind of looked back at. It's like, I wish I would have went ahead and popped him with that one right off the gate. Because it pissed me off that he called me Regina. I'm not your friend. And it was kind of upset and I felt like that I wasn't going to get to really go after him as much as I wanted to at that point. But anyway, he continued to call and call and call and call and call. And then my receptions just found us just like, are you going to talk to the guy today? And I was like, all right, next time he calls. I'm ready to put it through and I have my paralegal come in and sit with me. She was taking notes and you know, listen as well. So I have another another witness to the conversation. And so that was the thing. As soon as he started out, I was like, he's going to start immediately trying to do. Oh, I think that my wife hired you. And I'm like, you know, guy, you don't, this he was so casual.

9:47And it just pissed me off because I have beautiful Micah that had been through all this hell and back kind of a thing. And now that I've been informed that, you know, she's passed away. And and this guy's called him like it's just another day. I just I just wanted to go to the phone. I was so disgusted with him. But it was a lot of, I mean, course of control abusers or narcissistic ego centered type of personalities. I love them. They're so predictable. They're a playbook. They think they're unique. They're not. They all did exact same thing. It just comes in a different package. But they all did exact same thing. You know, repeat over and over and over again. I've dealt with a lot of them throughout my career too. And I've always said they're like my little cat toys. Because they're just so easy. I already know what they are going to do before their little p-brain figures it out for themselves because they're so predictable on what they do do. So it makes it an easy target for me. Yeah, well, you were certainly equipped and you boundaries him and you said him, what do you want? And I loved the tone of just making him realize that he is an irritation and you have his number.

10:58And I could just see him keep shifting his gears because he was trying to manipulate you in each time he used a tactic. As we know they go around that wheel and it didn't work. He would then switch a gear again and it literally is performative just like that, isn't it? But he couldn't manipulate you. And what was he asking for and how many times do you think he called? Oh gosh, I can't remember. I didn't need to get back and look at that. It was it was a lot to probably at least a dozen, I would say. One of the things I was going to say also about that column. He he kept, if he knows he kept shifting his tone to it's like, oh, that didn't work. Let me try something different. You know, and I was like, it's not you're not going to get around me. Go this just not going to happen within the smoke screen of everything else. Obviously he was trying to control the narrative. But what was he requesting from you? Because you know, they never cease to amaze me. You know, as you say, they're very predictable in terms of the way that they behave and they insert themselves in every relationship. They know the victim has.

11:58But calling Mike is attorney where you are fighting for her. You are paid to fight for her. I mean, that would shock quite a lot of people, I think that he had the gumption, you know, where he thought that he could and the confidence to even pick up the phone and bleed and the belief that he could manipulate you. And so yeah, well, wouldn't that be the ultimate, you know, feather in the cat for him is to get Mike as lawyer. He was coming after him to flip a script and have some kind of sympathy for him or buy his narrative or see his side. That would be a, you know, that would just be the ice and on the cake for him. And so his pretense of calling it one of them was probably real, but the pretense was that he was calling to like I didn't know that she passed away him. But the other thing was now that she's passed away and you know, obviously she doesn't need my services anymore. Is there any money left over that she paid in, you know, and I said, what?

13:01What? Why are you asking this question? And he goes, well, you know, he goes, I'm not really worried about it. It's just that her family is coming in and any would lower his voice to like he was almost like he was petting a kid and there's nothing, you know. Well, her family is wanting to come in, you know, they live far away and the church is one more I want we wear the church or we are and I was like, well, which one is it we you church, what is it. I want to pay for them their flight out and then he proceeded to tell me that they already paid $5,000 for flights and all it. And I was like, I'm hearing you get you know, this is not what you're talking about. Making up an excuse to be able to talk to me because the only thing he wanted to do really. And you know, people go, oh, he wanted that money. I go, no, he wanted to pretend he wanted that money. So that he would have a reason to come you don't call up your spouse's divorce attorney and go, hey, how you doing, you know, that just doesn't work. So he was using that is a fake reason to call me. And then he was trying to use it to make himself appear to be, you know, generous and giving and caring about her family, which is, you know, he's the one that drove him not drove them away, but he's the one that interfered with Mike is really.

14:23With Mike's relationship with all members of her family, you know, so it's like don't sit there and talk to me and pretend like you're in trying to convince me that you're trying to do something nice for Mike as surviving relatives. Are you kidding me. That's just ridiculous. But anyway, he was just using that so he could talk to me because I think he also really wanted to see obviously if he could convince me to get to his side of the story. And as the conversation progress. I'd lightened a little bit with him and kind of just sort of kept really an am because I wanted him to keep talking because the purpose of that recording was, hopefully he would trip up and say something I could go. Gotcha. You know, and it was so interesting. He was saying that they had a wonderful marriage when he's talking to the divorce attorney and just these things where you can see he's not particularly bright in how he constructs his narrative. But for so many people, he would just charm them with, you know, the good old Southern charm. They won't really be paying attention to the detail, but you put him straight on that too.

15:31And you had a lot of information and I suspect he was trying to find out exactly what you knew as he was with other people and trying to circle the wagons and clean up, you know, the cleanup exercise and control the narrative with everybody that he could physically talk with reach. And even that, you know, I call it the post defense behavior of somebody. And of course, with Mike as death, we don't know 100% who pulled the trigger. I say that because initially I did believe that he had something to do with it. As soon as I heard that sermon, which was on the 28th of April, the day after Mike as body was found and he's telling his congregation as a post script, it was almost a PS, my wife died. And it was so important that George is going to have a picnic this weekend, like for you, I've come by and Santa, but the back, you know, exactly it was so casual when his choice of words self induced it was a very peculiar set of words that he used.

16:34And giving them instructions not to talk about it and that he had just been playing the piano in a crazy way, you know, just before almost like he was in a celebratory mood. And then he switches mood and then he talks about her mental health. And now when I see those things, you know, talking about women's mental health and she's meant to the ill and she's, he's saying this, not even a full day after she was found dead. When I know from the police side having worked at New Scotland, you are for 10 years, there was no time for an autopsy. There was no time for a proper examination and assessment for the police to even understand what actually went on and there he is presenting it as a fate of complete. This is what happened and those red flags that I still can't shake and hearing and seeing more about his behavior, certainly the way he talked to you, how he talked to Michael's counselor, just all the things that he was doing when we get a much fuller picture. It talks to somebody who had much more of a hand than, you know, coercively controlling and stalking her to death, which is what I thought that it was and I always say they don't have to pull the trigger.

17:40They can make your life so miserable and hopeless and helpless, but the more I hear about her state of mind of her future planning and the things that I heard you say, but also her family say it makes me question everything about that particular day and the gaps in time that are unaccounted for in terms of what happened to Michael on that timeline. I think you said that it was two days before Michael died that he was served with the lawsuit and that two day timeline for me with finality and his biggest fear that becomes much more significant. I wonder whether you feel concerned about the micro timeline of Michael, but also the big picture timeline of him being served with the papers and that sermon and the post, you know, Michael dying behavior. What are your thoughts about it because you probably spoke to my car. I don't know in that timeline where it was, but I don't know what you felt about her state of mind, whether she felt that there was hope that she was getting away from him and this was the next step or whether she was feeling just so hopeless and helpless that things were going backwards, you know, what was your sense from her.

18:55Yeah, well, like I said, I've been practicing, you know, law for over 20 years and in my experience, when people come to see me, they're usually at one of three stages, one is just the let me just see what if I were to make this decision, you know, what would my obligations be, what would I be entitled to, they're just information seeking and I can always tell those, you know, and usually ask people right up front, you know, those types of things. And if they're not there just getting information, then they've either been threatened with a divorce and they want to, usually the threat is I'm going to throw you out, you'll have nothing and you'll, you know, live in the ditch forever, that's a common one. And so they want to come in and go, is this true? And I'm like, heck no, and my favorite one is always when they come in and go, he told me he was going to take a children, I'll never see them again. Of course, it's not Mike, it's case I'm talking about, it's talking about in general. And so that one always gets me to because I'm like, I just want to get to the top of a mountain screen of somebody. If you're the primary parent who gets up in at 3 a.m. to clean up the vomit off of the sheets and you're the one that misses work and you're the one cooling the theater and you're the one doing all of these things and you're the primary caretaker.

20:05And that's the parent that usually gets custody, you know, and it destroys me crazy, but it's a classic, you know, it is. It's a tool. It's a weapon to do those things. And then the other one is the one who is ready to move forward and Mike was 100% in that last category because this had been going on for a while. She had filed once before and then he talked her into dropping it and then when she dropped hers and what did he do? He ran out and had filed one against turns and it was like, wait a minute. You asked me to drop mine, but then you turn around and thought yours, you know, it's the weaponization of the legal system. And she was just at this point just ready to be done with him and all of the chaos. And of course, you know, until you totally get this entangled from them, that's not going to happen, but she had already taken a lot of the steps in the right direction. She, you know, obviously was out of the home and live on with Miss Diana. And so that meant that he didn't have any right to enter there without, you know, permission, he didn't have a key.

21:08So there was safety in that. She felt good about that. One of the things that he did is a lot of things that it and make it into the documentary. Obviously, it's a long story, a lot to the story. But what are the things that he did is the car that she normally drove during the marriage. He of course had control of the insurance and the payments and all that comes to say, then it was, I'm not making the payment. If you want to keep the car, you better make the payment. If you don't, they're going to repossess it. So there was a sphere of that. I think it was one of his kids, adult children of some or a sister, I can't remember of which one, but he added somebody to the insurance policy that covered her car. So it would drive up the premium on it because you know, you have to pay the insurance to Mike and she's like, why did they go up the $400 a month, you know. And it was he was doing those kind of maneuvering types of tactics just to keep jerking around.

22:08So actually, Miss Diana, I have said this, you know, he took the car and wouldn't give it back to her. At some point now it was being used as a token to come on back. If you want to car, come on back home or or you go do these things for me and then I'll give you a car back. So Miss Diana said, just go get another one. So she went with Mike and helped her secure another car. Now the problem with that is the payment was higher is still continued to be a struggle, but she was fine with that because now he had no control over her residents had no control over her vehicle. You have any rights to it's what I mean. And then the other thing is, you know, she used to work for the church and of course the underpader is she didn't get cool wages there. Most of her work was volunteer, but she was reliant upon her paycheck from the church. And so at that point she'd gotten a job. So now he didn't have control of that. So little by little, she's separate removing these control devices. And of course that's when they really wake out, they'll go, you know, so slippery fish to them at that point.

23:12She had also gotten back in touch with her friends and her and her family. She was going to launch launches with them. You know, there's that beautiful picture of her and it is but still some of her and her sisters on the beach, you know, that just that feeling of relief and wow, this feature that's coming and how how wonderful life is going to be. So she had taken all of those things and she felt good about those. And then she also had a plan for the future. And I know if anybody's heard me talking to always heard me say I remember, David Lee, her in my conference room, you know, just beaming because she and she was talking about her plans for the mission. And she, you know, what she wanted to accomplish there. She told me that she she always knew that the calling was, was to be in the house of the Lord. That was that was where she was going to be. But now she had this uncontrollable almost excited state of mind and that she was making plans about how she was going to accomplish, you know, building a school in Africa and in all of those kinds of things.

24:20So she was working on that. And then we got the paperwork put together, you know, we went through everything methodically. She did not want to go forward with the divorce on thought grounds. See in South Carolina, you cannot get a divorce unless you have fought grounds, meaning usually alcohol or drug abuse, adultery, physical cruelty. Or what we call abandonment, which is just completely useless thing. It's not emotional abandonment. Like most people think it's a physical abandonment. But anyway, she certainly had adultery. She had some proof of that. And I was like, gosh, just let me open that door up. But we also discussed it and to go that route. She said, if we go that route, he's got all the money. This is all the money I have for that I can do this on. We have to accomplish this in this amount. And I was like, I'll tell you to get that, you know, not a problem. And it was a strategy. It was like, I would like to throw a nuclear bomb over there at the guy, right.

25:26And she was like, she wanted to be, she wanted to protect the church as much as she could. She said, I just want to be done with town. I just want to keep my car and you know, she had already gotten all the personal items that she wanted. And I think there was this thing called the ice bath, which, which is in the documentary where Michael sinks in that little tub. Things called ice bath. It's very frigid water that helps when anxiety. I think in things like that. I'm not quite sure the science behind that. But it was something that meant a lot to her. So she wanted that. And it's like, well, you know, these are simple things. We're just filed a file the action. And I said, but I go, what about all of these things that, you know, she didn't want me to put. If you read the pleading, I don't have these details in there. Where the details were going to be was in her affidavit that we had already started. And I said, you have to tell you have the judge just needs to know, you know. And then she was like, yeah, she and she came to the consent conclusion. She's like, yeah, she is, but will the will it be out in public. And I was like, no, the way it works in South Carolina is that that first hearing is called a temporary hearing.

26:34It's because it's an order that's only as an effect for a temporary period of time. And I said, is the judge read it? There's no live testimony. It's affidavit. It's paper driven only, you know, we would submit our packet to the judge. He and his lawyer would submit their packet to the judge and the judge would would also sit down silence. And while the judge read all the paperwork, then at the end, the judge would make a decision from that. And so it was like she was happy to know that the judge would get to read those things and to know about it, but it would not have been in for someone to see that they would have to literally go to the courthouse and go in and ask for it, go back and pull the file. So she she liked the idea that she could tell her story and it wouldn't be, you know, something we have what we call public index and South Carolina, not sure what they call it in other states, but that's where copies of the documents are uploaded that's been filed with the court. No, we don't do that in family court. But anyway, she had the perception that it could be made public and it's like, no, somebody actually just went to go in there looking for it.

27:41So anyway, saying all that to say we had a plan. She was literally happy. As an attorney, we are required to evaluate our clients to see if they're even competent to be in there to even hire an attorney. I've had situation at least once that I can remember throughout my career work. A client of mine became incompetent during representation. And as the attorney, I had a duty to seek out a guardian, I'd like them to be appointed for my client. You know, and so when someone's in the office, we always have to test the the mental capacity. But anyway, you would have to make sure that someone is competent to make decisions for themselves and especially legal decisions, you know, you can't tell. Yeah, she was definitely competent for that. The other thing is that I come with personal experience, you know, I have a family relative that that is bipolar that has been appropriately diagnosed by the appropriate people, you know, that do that. I'm a professional, the psychiatrist and I kind of know what that looks like, you know, but I also know that I was in a professional capacity with Micah, but at the same time, I mean, as everybody saw when they watched the documentary, you just fall in love with her. I mean, she's just a likable person.

28:58She's someone you won't around and I saw a comment and I had a live the other night and I was like, I just have to read this comment and I'll have to think about how it was said exactly, but oh, it was basically someone had posted on something that I have that said, I didn't know Micah, but I wish I would have. I think that just that says it right there to me because now we always that we had her, you know, back and we and we have got to know her. Hey, lovely, if you enjoy crime analyst and you want expert and in depth insights about vitimology, criminal behavior, crime scene assessment, risk assessment, profiling perpetrators and their psychology with a focus on prevention, join the crime analyst squad on Patreon. For August, exclusive episode, I was joined by former detective Lindsay Wade. Lindsay has solved many cold cases throughout her career, working sexual offenses and homicide. I interviewed her and we talked about safety advice for women and children and I also share my knowledge from working cases. Here's a sneak peek.

30:06We're always looking for those as a criminal behavioural analyst, you're always looking for those near misses and they're so important to understand that pattern. You know, I previously said things like indecent exposure, they're gateway offenses, but actually a lot of serial killers, it's intermittent when they do it. It's not even a gateway, they might kill and then they indecently expose. It's not even at the start of their career as I've seen and I see you nodding as well. It can be flashed in amongst all the other things that I'm using the word flashing, but that indecent exposure appearing at a bedroom or breaking into someone's home and stealing underwear or masturbating on the pillow or whatever it is where a woman thinks, well, I'm not going to please aren't even dealing with rape cases. I'm not going to bother to call it in, but for you and I, it's so important to have those cases and to be able to link them and understand that patterned behaviour and it could take us to the offender. That could be the one break that we get that takes us to him.

31:09Absolutely. Yes. Yes, I don't ever feel like you're bothering the police or it's not important. Report it, please. 100%. This conversation could save yours or your child's life. When you join the crime analyst squad, you'll unlock more than 1,551 exclusive posts including my masterclass on coercive control and stalking. 185 my two cents on cases, 96 posts about psychopaths and serial killers, 308 on coercive control, 433 posts behind the headlines, 40 on stalking, 53 on hidden homicides, 110 about serial perpetrators and the need for a national register, and 8 on the Hampshire serial gang rape case. There are 9 on Lindsay Clancy, 14 posts about micro-francies, 20 about Andrew and Tristan Tate, 87 on the Menendez murders, 52 on Virginia Roberts-Jaffrey, Jeffrey Epstein and Galei Maxwell, 46 on the Murdoch murders, and 39 on Gabby Petito, including my interviews with her mums, and my analysis of part-range and Melissa Holzer's body-1 camera footage, and my crime scene visit in May of this year.

32:25And there are many more posts and episodes because you can also catch up on all 35 exclusive episodes and 35 ring-leader and life-alive events. Join the crime analyst squad and become part of a dynamic true crime community that centers and supports victims and challenges the status quo, because we believe in the facts and the evidence and ethical storytelling that moves the needle. My special gift to you for my birthday month is 50% off all annual memberships when you join between September the 14th and September 28th, 2026. Go to patreon.com for slash crime analyst and use promo code for a D E F. I'll see you in the squad lovely. Just to the point that we get a sense of who my career is through the documentary of being such a bright light. I mean, that she seems so warm and such a bright light. He just seemed to suck all of her brightness out of her and use her up.

33:29And that's what I see of these guys with their psychopathology. They literally drain you of your joy to leave and leave you in this lifeless state. The lights are on but no one's home. That's what I saw and I I think that you know when you see her doing the wedding vows I found her vows very interesting. Yeah, I did too. I'm convinced he wrote them everyone. He liked that little punchline, you know, let me see if they're going to do that. He planned all that stuff. No doubt my mind. I will give everything to you 100% and make your dreams come true. Everything. And he says, well, I can't beat that. And the beating, it's like a competition. Right. That's how these guys see things. But the fact that she said, I will, I will basically be everything that you want 100% and make your dreams come true. And she had that breast augmentation. And there was a big age gap. I saw nothing good in that at all. And the elements of sexual coercion coming out in the documentary, you know, I just feel that he used her as a sex slave.

34:36And that's what she was to him and his support of he called her a helpmate when she was really doing so much more than that. But making her have sex four times a day and injecting her testosterone hearing those things. And how he tortured her not allowing her to sleep. I mean, those sorts of behaviors can bring out psychosis in anybody, you know, drug induced psychosis, sleep deprivation and even she had the reaction with the rest augmentation to some of the sedatives. Well, that can happen, but it it need only be short lift. And so I just wonder how much it was just that. And he talked about her being a burden and then goes ahead with the marriage, but it was that constant thing that he could press that button at any point and get her sectioned. And that's just such a dangerous dangerous thing for any woman, but in South Carolina, I think it's even more dangerous where women don't have any rights. And I'm going to put it plainly because if you don't have a coercive control or if you don't have a stalking law or post separation.

35:44That level of abuse is completely ignored because everyone's looking for physical abuse, right. And if somebody's not talking about the physical and it's all the coercive control, the stalking, the threats threatening to put her photos, her videos online, you know, just cast it and terrifying, you know, and I think that part you talking about her narrative, she wanted it private while he's threatening to post all these pictures of her and videos. I mean, for me, it seemed to be that was her biggest fear that, you know, she was a Christian woman, she was a woman of God. And there he is making her do these sex acts and I'm filming it and then threatening to release it. That must have put the fear of God into her. I mean, terrifying. I'm sure that it I'm sure that it did, but you know, that that's part of the thing to get to go back and, you know, kind of remember or look at it starting at the point where he learned that Micah's calling at a young age was to be in ministry.

36:49You know, it was to be a part of the church. That was her dream and she she truly wanted to be as perfect of a Christian, you know, that she could be in and follow all the rules in the Bible. And I mean all of them. And that meant a lot to her. He took that knowledge and immediately went to work on doing everything that he could get her into that would be un-Christian like for a Christian woman so that he could push that back and say, oh, you think you're a Christian woman, you're not a Christian woman, you're not a good Christian woman because you didn't do this or you did that. Just like I think that he started it specifically where he committed adultery on his first wife, you know, people like I've heard some comments with Micah having an affair with him while he was married like she was this, you know, sinister, ministerous. Yeah, and I'm like, you know, your stopper just a minute think about the age very young and I know and I know and I know and she also told me some of the things that happened that led up to some of the stuff.

37:54And I know that he was just on or all the time his mission was to get her to sleep with him so that he could use that to say, you're not a good Christian woman, you know. And to just go ahead and put that, you know, under her and then just constantly everything, you know, everything that was absolutely glorious and beautiful about Micah which she was in my opinion, the whole package deal. Any man that were to land her when you know, surely should be deserving of it, but he he just didn't deserve not even to be in the same room with her, but you know the testosterone thing and that was presented like it was part of the sex drop thing which. It may have been a little bit, but my opinion is that he knew it would destroy her voice that was the last thing that she had left them, you know, she did gain some weight and like she's even talked about that again way to last way to hair is falling out, you know, all this kind of stuff and it was he just took so much joy, I feel like.

38:56I'm just watching her be deconstructed of every single thing that brought her you know joy or made people look at her and love her so much you know and and i'm with you have said that same thing a hundred times she was a bright beam of light just a bright light and she's brought a bright shining light to this insidious form of abuse and you are absolutely correct in the state of saturday. We have a huge problem there women are not at the top of the list and people are going, well men go through this too while I know that there's a very small percentage we're not forgetting about them but let's talk about the majority which is women and they need to be protected and starting with just the definition of abuse and the state of South Carolina is only physical or the threat of physical that has to be like imminent harm you know to get any help and so the great thing about that is that we have a lot of people. The great thing about this documentary is I feel like the the viewer gets to put their you know slide into the shoes of the victim and walk in those shoes and don't forget this they walked in it for 40 to 45 minutes three times so those three episodes that about everyone i've come in contact with that i've talked to or talked with me or left comments i'll walk away themselves being traumatized by this message.

40:25I've got a lot of knowledge and can't undo these things in their head and just those three episodes to lead that kind of scar on the viewer can you imagine. I've been living in that day in and day out non-stop and cessant never see never get one second one minutes of peace ever whatsoever from him and do that for your entire 20s all of it. I'm not abusive enough that we can get the the law change now I mean I would got enough now I'll keep saying over and over then in South Carolina you got to be beat to death or you know before you actually get you know like an emergency restraining order and I think that. People who are in a course of control environment or have an abuser of course a control they need emergency restraining orders because they work differently a lot of people hear that and they say oh that just means you get it real fast it's a restraining order no all restraining orders are not created equal there's different kinds our emergency restraining orders in the state of South Carolina.

41:32Some people refer to them as orders of protection or emergency restraining orders in the only way you qualify for that of course is you have to present with you know broken bones black eyes or whatever it is and then you can get into court within 24 hours and get a what's called an X part a restraining order where there's the judge just signs the order and. And then you obviously have to come back another time to get to get the get to come back a second time to have the abuse or sitting over there and have a hearing but anyway. What I really want to say is that emergency restraining order is really needed a lot for those who are abusive course of control and be some situations because usually when a person presents with physical abuse. There's some place for them to go I'll be it in or county South Carolina we still don't have a. Women's or domestic violence shelter I mean it's being built now but it was never priority and took private citizens to put that together so our battered dictums would have to go to another county to get resources or they got some money to get a hotel room nothing you know it's just.

42:48makes me so mad but anyway if you have if you present with physical usually you're going to get some kind of resource you can get place somewhere to keep you safe if you are on the if you're a victim of course of control abuse that there's there's no there's no building there's no door there's nothing that's going to that they can take you and hide your way they're going to continue to come after you. And then everybody knows that's familiar with this kind of stuff is after they get you get away from them that they ramp it up I mean it goes in the high outtank mode at that point because they're realizing oh my goodness you might be winning and getting away from them but the reason that I think the emergency restraining orders are truly necessary and this type of abuse is because. And South care well first of all the federal government says when those are issued that it's an immediate disarming you have the abuser has to turn over their firearms and ammunition that's turned it over and they also take their you know their identification and put them in a database as having one of these restraints against them their issue for a minimum usually of six months and can be extended up to a year whatever the circumstances are.

44:01But the thing that South Carolina does get right here is that in the emergency restraining order or the order of protection is that if a person violates the terms of that order it's considered criminal and not civil and nature and that's a big distinction because when a crime is committed one of two things happen either a it's a crime and commission that a police officer season can arrest because they solved the crime and progress. Or you take the information to a magistrate and the magistrate judge issues of war based on probable calls now all those are slowing things down you know we need immediate action and so the the order of protection what happens is the victim if they see the user drive back as you know they're going to drive by or they start blowing up your phone or they have their mama call you a hundred times or the sister or their best friend or whatever they have. Whatever that happens the victim can show that order protection to a police officer and tell and here's my phone call me 16 times or whatever it is and the officer has the legal power to make a determination whether he thinks that they or she the officer can determine whether the user has.

45:15Violated that the conditions of that restraining order and can go lock them up on site and that's what I say lock them up lock them up soon as they cut and you get that restraining order and as soon as they do one day gone thing you call the police you show them the order and they go arrest them and put them in jail put them in jail put them in jail put them in jail you know and you can't do that with a regular family court restraining order ordinary family court restraining order and those are issued usually at every. Family court matter this standard restraining order and I know nobody is supposed to harass each other and that sort of a thing and and usually those those usually work for normal thinking people right if I violate this I could get in trouble. Disations for a violation on civil side is up to a year in jail and or combination of community service and the fines things like that so. And of course for a straining or a stop people like this they they're deterrent obviously for normal thinking people but you got to have that lock up on site aspect of it to to really you know and you got to be you got to be willing to call the police and tell on them you know get them like that.

46:28Hey lovely a quick 30 seconds of your time please firstly thank you for tuning in and listening to the show week after week it means the absolute world to me and secondly it feels like I'm only just getting started and if you enjoy what I do here please join the small percentage of people who listen regularly and follow crime analyst on this app. My commitment to you is that I'm going to do everything I can to make this show as good as I can for you are covered the cases you want me to and share expert insight and knowledge and do all the things you love about the show thank you so much. And Micah did want to have an order of protection but unfortunately she couldn't get one for the reasons that you explained and I think that's very important to yes to talk about because the law must catch up our research and our data analysis shows that the importance of control correlates significantly with suicide, femicide and familiar side where the whole family are wiped out and it's not physical abuse that is the correlator and so that's what we know we've known it for over a decade now so South Carolina is operating on very archaic information and as you say Regina the key thing is if you get an order it's

47:52that's what we see far too often but post separation abuse I mean what Micah was suffering from at the hands of JP Miller in she talked about in every sphere of her life and I bring her voice and just her words into it because she did write in her journal. I was 13 years old when I met JP Miller as my pastor so immediately you've got a power imbalance immediately we've got the ages as you said he's somebody she looked up to but she she wrote since the day we became husband and wife I've been abused in every way I can think of emotionally sexually spiritually financially and physically and I I would add in there that you know she mentioned financially I mean it was really important to me to be honest with you. I was an economic abuse where he's closing down every part of her life and economic abuse is the number one obstacle to women's safety so you adding coercive control too and he I do believe he was medically abusing her and the sexual abuse you know we often see that when someone's being sexually abused to that level and he was paying homeless people to do things I mean he was really devaluing her.

49:13It's just unfair and it is a man of God doing this. I think a lot of it was to do with as you said making her ungodly and making her hate herself for doing those things and so diabolical the way that he behaved and I think that point about testosterone you know if you administer testosterone you have to look at the levels of all your hormones to balance it out otherwise it does have irreversible effects. Which is your voice your hair you know I know all of this because I've researched it myself for every impact that that will have and her voice being her her vessel of communication and her spirit and she joined the choir when as soon as she could in churches because that was her absolute passion and so I think that you are right that level of being so diabolical he's literally targeting every aspect of her personhood which is what we see of coercive control.

50:13And it just makes me so angry hearing all the new things that were revealed but of course even in the documentary it didn't talk about everything and you know that there was far more as do I and I'm sure there were reasons and probably it's just the time of you've got three parts and you can't get everything in there but even the things around insurance right putting the insurance up taking her dog putting her dog outside when she's gotten you job and it means that she's got a lot of things. leave her workplace. Not leaving her good to them. Just all these things that make your life a living hell and sending her flowers, but that one that we saw on the documentary, which was a so-called apology, but it's send new to us. Which is a shame. How he devalued her in life in every way, which is why I take exception to the fact he calls you up and tells you we had a wonderful marriage. And he also tried to say that on news nation that they had a wonderful marriage. But it was wonderful, but she was delusional.

51:15And she was fine when she was with me, but it was her family. And so pointing the blame at everybody else, that's also what we see of coercive controllers. Swap and making them happen to victim or martyr or doing something that's totally not to. It's just a big bundle of nothing but lies, deception, manipulation, nothing good there. But as far as what was put in Micah's documentary, and that's what I call it, Micah's documentary, is that I think that they did a fabulous job of getting it across in terms of how damaging this form of abuse truly is. Yes, to say that there's a lot more there is. I mean, you saw that I wrote Micah's list. Micah's list came directly from... Yeah, it came directly from the things that she had given to me or shared with me or put in her journal or gave me some kind of proof of it, whether it was her own testimony or something

52:18that corroborated that. And that by itself was what five or six pages long, and it was mostly single spaced, but it's exhausting. It's just simply exhausting. But I think they did a great job of doing a mix of showing how this... Let's say it before I ever knew the word, coerce of control, and of course I'm a victim of coerce, a survivor of coerce of control myself. And what happens is you go, how the heck did I end up in this? This is ridiculous. And I used to call it invisible stuff. I was like, I can't even explain to my friends. I was like, he sent me flowers and they go, oh, I'm like, no, but it's not. It's not an all. It's a... You know, that government, plus I wanted to say about that, the court where he sent the flowers and send me a nude. It wasn't just send me a nude. It was to remind you of the nude that I already have. You don't need to send me any because I got a lot of them.

53:20It's just disgusting. Anything is still... Oh, I can hardly take it. I just hope that everybody is... And it seems like that everybody is getting fired up. They really understand and insidiousness of this form of abuse. And that we really need to do something about it. And I almost feel like it's a burning of the bra moment. We're like, dammit, we're not taking it anymore. And get out there and do something about it. Because if you don't, we are going to go crazy. You know, I am. I mean, I'm with you. And, you know, we're recording today on the day that we had news at Gloria Steinem passed away. And, you know, all the feminists who have fought for rights for women that we see that rights are being, in some cases, taken away. But still in some areas where there were no rights in the first place and knowing that South Carolina is in the top 10 for being one of the most dangerous states for women in America.

54:21It has been for decades, I think. It's time to change. It really is time for change. And we're talking about the coercive control law. Because, you know, when I read Mike as list, I thought that this was just a stroke of genius actually on your behalf. So I just want to... I have talked about you on the microphone before. You may not have heard me throwing props your way to say that this is a very smart thing to do. To look at the behaviors, look at her journals, look at what she told you and start to map it out of the behaviors. Because, yes, coercive control is a constellation of behaviors to ensure entrapment and domination and erosion of your free will, erosion of autonomy and agency. And on the face of it, a behavior as you describe could look, oh, that's nice, he sent flowers. Oh, but look at what the message says. And you're right, the news is a reminder. And I just feel that that was her biggest fear, whereas his biggest fear was the separation because of the church

55:24and losing the congregation because that is money to him. That's money, that's influence, that power, and that's wealth. So you've got two people with two big fears and hers is about what he's doing to her, the constellation of behaviors. And I felt it was so compelling what you did. When we first spoke, I felt that the law would come in because it was so compelling when you, and I've done it many times, where I've talked about cases, I've shown and talked about the case, I've talked about Michael and exactly what happened and then gone through the gaps in the law. And this is why we need the law. And when we did it in England and Wales, we also surveyed victims. And in fact, 98% of them said we needed to criminalize coercive control, 98%. And it was the same for professionals. They felt that that was the gap that we needed to modernize law, to reflect women's and children's lived experience. And here you've got Michael's experience. But what I learned from you reading out the list was that actually

56:26there had been a coercive control bill on the books multiple times. And in fact, now it's four times and each bill has died. And so I wonder if you can talk to that Regina because, you know, for me to see, I've certainly never witnessed this before. The not just one time was it on the books, but four times. And the first time was February 2020, then January 2021. And then it reached the Senate in December 2021. But and the recent bill has died again. What's going on with that? And how do we change it in Michael's name? Hey, lovely. I'm jumping in here to wrap part one of my fascinating and illuminating interview with a Tony Regina Ward. You can tell how fired up Regina is. And I love her for that. She was one of my favorite parts of the documentary. And we need more of her. She's not going to let this rest. And neither will I. In part two, you're here why Michael's law has not passed.

57:28And you're going to be angry. You'll also hear what the next steps are because we, yes, all of us have to create change in Michael's name. And for all women who've been coercively controlled and in particular, for those who lost their voices forever. Justice for Michael. Until next time, be curious, ask questions, and always trust your instincts. Here's my final thought and ask before the episode wraps. I really appreciate you listening to Cry Manelist. And if you like what I do, please take two minutes to leave a five star review wherever you listen to me. It really helps others find me and my work. And it helps with the ratings too. Cry Manelist has written, produced, and hosted by me, Laura Richards.

58:32Sound engineering by Ray Maraudriga's. A music by Kill Root. You know that feeling. Too many updates, too many meetings, too many things falling through the cracks. Monday.com was built for that gap. The AI work platform designed from the ground up for people and agents to work side by side and deliver more together. Drafting the brief, flagging risks, running a competitive scan, your agent can do it all. And the best part, anyone can build one. Even you, try it. Create your first Monday agent today at Monday.com.