Ep. 401 Kendall Mariah - The Anchoring Tether in the Midst of Soul Friction

The best way that we can become better humans,

better followed by Christ,

is to listen to each other's stories.

And when we understand and listen to other people's stories,

I think we can be better stewards of love and compassion.

Hello and welcome to the Shifting Culture Podcast,

in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make.

We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus.

I'm your host, Joshua Johnson.

What do you do when your faith doesn't fit as neatly as it used to?

When the formulas stop working,

when the church culture you inherited feels misaligned with the Jesus you're trying to follow.

When anger, grief, infertility, racial awakening, and disillusionment all collide,

and you're told, just don't worry.

In this conversation with Kindle Moriah, we talk about what she calls soul friction.

That holy discomfort that shows up when something isn't right, it's not rebellion,

it's not weakness, it's a sacred signal worth paying attention to.

So we explore how faith is forged in the fire.

We explore why certainty isn't the goal, but courage is how anger can either burn the house down

or light the way, and what it actually means to pray on earth as it is in heaven.

So if you felt attention but didn't have language for it, this conversation should give you some.

So let's step into the friction.

Here is my conversation with Kindle Moriah.

Kindle, welcome to shifting culture, so excited to have you on.

Thanks for joining me.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm excited to be here and to hang out with you today.

Well, you should be, because this is an exciting place to be.

And we're going to have a good conversation.

And I want to start into a place where you call soul friction in your book.

And the friction of a thinking something may not be right.

There may be some disillusionments, but this may not be a bad thing.

Where did you first sense that soul friction wasn't just a bad thing,

but it may be actually a sacred thing?

I've always lived with it.

There was kind of that acknowledgement phase, and then there's the naming of phase with anything

that you experienced.

And I have lived with it as long as I have lived with God.

And just as I've always believed and just had this innermost being since the God exist,

I've also had this propensity to be like, I don't know if that's quite right.

Or I want to poke a hole in that or ask a question like that is just my nature in anything.

And thankfully, I was raised by parents that were willing to answer all thousand of my questions.

And that I was in a church home that fostered questions in my little neurodivergent brain

that was not satisfied with.

That's just the way it is.

Or that's what the Bible says.

I wanted, well, why did they say it?

Who wrote it?

You know, how do we know that's exactly what they said?

Were you there?

You know, I was the kid constantly trying to poke holes in it.

And so the friction started there with just natural questions as a child,

but it never pushed me away from faith.

It always pulled me closer because again, I had that innate sense that yes, God does exist.

And I think that was the anchoring tether because I could just,

just in the same way, I could feel that tingly negative feeling.

There was a tingly positive end of like, I'm not alone.

God is real.

The rest is figure outable.

The rest is conversation.

And so that was my whole childhood existence, my whole teenage existence.

But it wasn't until post-college when I was outside of my small town.

I was three thousand miles away in Washington state.

I was, you know, out of the South and out of my routine,

that I really realized that not everyone approached faith in the same way.

And that where I had been fostered in a community that was okay with questions.

And even if they kind of just nodded it off with, well, that's just kindle.

But they at least entertained me and never made me feel silly for it.

I realized that that was not only not the norm,

but friction could come not just from questions,

but from experiences of like, oh, this is not what I was told I would experience.

Or I was told if I do a plus b, then see what happened.

And then it didn't.

And then it didn't again.

And I'm like, okay, God, I did the formula.

I take down the boxes.

Things are still not working out.

Fill in the friction of that.

Then also seeing Christians in real time as an adult with my front for court takes

developed not at like Christ.

And I'm like, y'all, what is going on?

You know, and having to learn things like the many of cognitive dissonance.

And understanding that even though I wasn't raised with a real law,

you know, fundamental mentality about scripture, a lot of people were.

And that's going to change their experience with Christ.

And so friction can come in different forms in different seasons.

But I put a word and a name to it out of that season in 2017 of just a pattern recognition of,

okay, these are all moments that I've seen other parts of faith or people or friends walk

away from, you know, dealing with things like suicide of a close loved one, mental health crises,

going through, you know, purity culture coming out on the other side and how that affected them.

And, you know, all the way through my infertility journey,

gosh, different things.

All the way up to 2020 and adopted and transracially.

When I could have walked away and when I noticed that people were deconstructing,

that tether still was a child of no, who had got it just.

But everything else I've got to figure out for myself.

And not just because some older, excuse my language, but white man said it behind a pool pit

when I was a child. And, and even those are trusted voices and I'm still grateful for them today,

I needed to make sure I believed it. And I knew it was true for myself and based on,

based on the character of God that I had seen in the Bible and their Jesus' teachings.

Seems like you went through a phase where any good story goes through, which is out in the wild,

in the wilderness, in the, the desperation, trying to say, I don't really have everything

that I need right now. And I'm trying to figure out what tools do I need, what wisdom can I take.

Yeah. So I could take it with me and move and grow. I think this is, this happens to a lot of

people where this is the thing that, you know, their life and their faith can be forged in this

fire of, of friction. Some people like get their fire forged in the midst of that. And they could

tend to it. And some people say, Hey, my fire has gone. Like, I don't have it anymore.

What the darkness dampens my fire so much that it's now out. And I'm just retreating back,

not being changed and moved deeper into my faith. How do you think that season helped you tend to

your fire to actually grow deeper in who you are in your faith, your relationship with Jesus,

and your family? You know, have you ever been in a season, maybe it's mental health or just health

in general or life? I don't know. But like, issues hit the fan. Like, everything that could go wrong,

will go wrong. Like, my mental health was taint about physical health was taint. I wasn't in your

family. Like, I was in the fetal position in my, you know, 400 square foot bedroom, when I were

crying. And all I could say was Jesus, hold me. I couldn't think of one Bible verse. I couldn't

think of one anything. And in that moment, I would find just tiny moments of peace when in the rest

of my mind was anxiety and chaos. And it was just little tiny moments of the didn't last forever

that weren't. I didn't just get covered with this blanket and everything was perfect and fine

after that. But it was just enough peace that I could make a phone call to my mom who could talk me

down and say, you know, if things could be fine, she could help ground me. And then it would be

just enough courage or just enough strength to get out the house and go for a walk, get some

vitamin D. And it was finding God and faith in those tiny moments. And just the tiniest moment,

sometimes I'm telling you, fleeting like a flicker and letting that build. Like, I think sometimes

we want this like road to a maze experience or we want a lot more moment where just all of a sudden

it makes sense. Or God reveals to us why these things had to happen. But I think we, as we do with

a lot of things overcomplicated or we try to go too deep too fast. And so I kind of had to think

about it in a way that my mom treated me when I was once I'm going to help this like treat me like a

small child. Make sure I was eating, make sure I was sleeping good, get me outside so I have some

fresh air and some light. Okay, how do we take that back to a faith of a child? How do I take that

back? How would I treat my child if she needed her? What would I say to her? What would I point her to?

And it's not the complexities of faith. I'm not sitting there trying to figure out, you know,

secondary, intershary things that we want to argue all day long. It was just the, do I have hope

and the fact that there is a greater being out there orchestrating things and that he is gracious

enough to acknowledge I exist. Okay, can I hold that? Can I accept that? Can I believe in that? If

birds can get food, then I can maintain for today. You know, like those little moments. And I think

that's where you start to build confidence in yourself and your relationship with God to go

deeper and to realize that I think the big part missing is faith is meant to be intimate. A

walk with Christ is meant to be an intimate thing. I think that social media and you know, even

evangelical culture of the last kind of 50 years has in a lot of ways perverted that and I hate

to use that word, but we see a display of faith as watch me read my Bible or look at this really

cool shot of me worshiping or follow me to see how to be a better Christian. When in actuality,

you know, how weird would it be if I posted, at least it would be for myself, the intimate moments

of my relationship with my husband. But intimate means closeness, it means vulnerability and you

build that into seeing vulnerability through one proximity, but two is time and duration of time

and just the two of you. And so I think just finding those tiny moments that you can build some trust

in that relationship and believe that it's worth believing in and starting there. And you know,

for me was, you know, then you start to notice the little godwings. I mean, and it's when you're

in deep down in that far out and your flicker so light, sometimes the godwink would be like,

oh my gosh, I have my six months all in the back seat and I got the parking spot beside the return

cart thing at Target. And that sounds so silly. And that is the least theological thing you may

ever hear me say, but I would literally be like, thank you Lord for, you know, this little flicker of

hope that I have today that you see me. Okay. And letting that build and the repetition of that.

And it's amazing. I'm sure you've talked to other people that talk about, you know, how even the

neurons in your brain rewire as you rework those those thought patterns and how effective it is,

which again, helped my mental health, it helped my spiritual health at all with hand in hand. But

really, I think my thing for a lot of people is taking it back to the basics. Like if if you want to

relate it to how would I help my child in this situation, you know, if they're just in the corner

having a tantrum as I was, how would I help bring them down, give them peace and hope? Or, you know,

go in the other direction of, okay, if my relationship with my spouse was fractured in some way or

something happened, how do I reframe this and build some intimacy back? Is it through time,

interest and scripture? Is it through prayer? What does that look like? And not feel like a

public display of affection or worship is going to be the answer to that because I think that has

really messed things up for us. I think that's what it looks like to be a good Christian.

Wouldn't that could all be smoke and mirrors? I think that smoke and mirrors part. I think

some people take something like Jesus saying do not worry. And he says do not worry a lot. And he

means it literally and seriously and deeply. But I think some of it people take it into hey I just

need some smoke mirrors. I'm going to like live a facade of my life and forget about like the

the real tangible gritty stuff that's actually happening in life. And I'm just going to not think

about it. I'm not I'm just going to let it over there. And so then I don't have to worry right

about these things. What do you think that Jesus really is trying to get at when he says do not

worry? That holds both our grief and our gratitude and our hope and our peace all of it together.

First of all, I mean that is so good because we're seeing so much of that right now where people

just are wanting to check out because it is so much to hold. There is so much like on your personal

level in your community, you know, and on the national world stage, there's a lot to try to

process right now. And the tendency is to want to check out. But again, I think it goes back to

intimacy and I'm someone that is an overthinker. I need to know a plan. But when I hear my husband say

don't worry, I've got to figure it out. It's not because it eliminates the problem that I'm stressed

out about or anything. But it's because I trust that he's handling the details. We can't be

acknowledgment with sometimes worrying or stressing. Like you can admit that you're stressed or

that you're overwhelmed or that you're overthinking. Like worrying encapsulates a lot of emotions,

a lot of feelings, a lot of things. I think God wants us to turn what face that emotion, get to

the bottom of it, where does it come from. But you know, as I mentioned before, as the birds

do not have to worry, we don't have to worry. It's not because that's not a real problem. You might

be facing a very real problem. But it's a it's a belief that while I'm doing the best I can,

he's worried working out the details. Because I don't know about you. But when has it ever not caught

up with you when you've ignored something? Like whether that's an emotion, whether that's a person,

whether that's a situation. So there's only so long that we can throw theology at ourselves or at

people that says, don't worry. Or I lived in my husband one day last week, John. And I said,

I so bad wish I could be when those Christians that was a let go and let God person. Like just

that just lived in this euphoric mentality of like, I don't have to worry and just like go and

like God. And it was just completely like almost checked out. And I was like, I'm jealous. I am

jealous that that is not my makeup. But the way that he built me as I'm hyper aware of way too

many things simultaneously. And so for me, my do not worry. And the way that I interpret it is

when he is with me. He is with me in the worry just as my husband is, you know, or, you know,

my mother is, she's a mother of safe person. But it's also like he's in the details. So even

that I might be feeling these feelings, I don't have to feel the feelings and figure out the details.

And how much easier is it to let an emotion pass when you're also not having to think about

logistics, when you're also not having to worry about the big picture. Because I think

one of the reasons that I talked to some friends that have been disenfranchised with

they their church is because their feelings were dismissed for so long. You know, they felt

crazy. Or are you saying that I'm not depressed? Are you saying like this is not a real problem or

pray it away? So there's no acknowledgement. When I think Jesus acknowledged people's emotions,

they didn't he acknowledged their fears. And he said, even though you feel this way,

let me be a part of it. It was a not even two weeks. Sometimes we just want to give it to him and

run away in the other directions. But I think of it more. And I talk about it in the book is like

the Jewish practice of sitting Shapa, you know, someone just coming alongside you, come one,

someone coming to help bear the burden. It doesn't mean it alleviates it. So you don't have

anything to worry about. It just means that you're not alone in it. And he above all God are

orchestrating all the details that we're probably losing sleepover and don't need to.

I mean, in your book, you talk around shame in the body,

culture, a whole bunch of types of like there's shame around the body. But you just mentioned people

feeling shame around the dismissal of their emotions or their feelings. How can we trust our body

of what we're feeling? Because so many people say ignore that and just go here. But I was thinking,

I don't know, maybe the I think this morning, I was talking to my wife and we were talking about

making sure that her body feels like this is the right thing to do, like to move in this direction.

And it actually comes from your body. You could say, you just picture yourself going in this direction

or another direction, which feels better in your body. Like where can you feel peace? And I think

because we have the Holy Spirit with us in our body, we could trust our bodies. How did you start

to move into a place where you could start to feel and trust some of your instincts, your body,

maybe the Holy Spirit speaking through you.

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body of Christ look more like Jesus. I wish I could say that I think it's a choice or that I

had to make a choice and then went on a journey because I do think it's a practice just as other

spiritual practices are learning to listen. But I want to separate that in two things I believe

because I think there's learning to discern the Holy Spirit and then there's learning to trust

your body and I do think they worked together but for me and growing up in purity culture,

they were separated for a really long time, right? You know, in a lot of ways, especially as a woman,

I was told or perceived that my body was bad or that my body was solely meant for temptation

purposes or be careful or I would call somebody else to sin and that was even worse than sin

myself just about. You know, like I have was very disconnected from my body in a lot of ways

or it was felt like a problem to solve. You know, you have purity culture going onto the church

world at the same time when a size six and women's clothes is considered plus size and so my body

was constantly under attack and so I just I didn't feel like I had any autonomy or agency over my

body. Meanwhile, I was a woo-woo kid who believed in the Holy Spirit. Like I was the weird kid in

like middle school that took the spiritual gift survey during the adults class because while I was

that in there, I don't know other than I refused to probably go to youth group and I wanted to take

the survey and as like a sixth grader got discernment. So I think you can be somebody who's woo-woo

and spiritual and connected to the Holy Spirit and also be disconnected to your body. Unfortunately,

I think one of the biggest reasons I began to listen to my body was going through some health

issues. I had to have emergency surgery in my senior year of college and I had a large cyst that

had been growing in in my stomach for what they didn't possibly have been years. It was so massive

they thought based on X-rays I was either a trimester pregnant or something was severely wrong

with my uterus and I knew it had to be the latter. Unfortunately and I had no concept of that.

Like what do you mean? How do you mean something that could be going on inside of me that I'm not

aware of? I was told you know I may never have to have kids and you know again I'm being told

something about my body. I don't know myself that I can't control and because of that I knew that

I was ever going to have a healthy relationship with my body after years of more issues. I had to

make the choice you to probably seven, eight years back. We started the adoption process that

how can I ever teach a child to love their body if I don't love and listen to mom and and I had

to reframe it as sturdying my body. I had to reframe it as my body is good. God made me this way

for a reason. God built me this way whether that is my mind when my neurodivergence you know

talk a little bit in the book whether it is you know not being someone who's naturally stick

the on all all of these things and the fact that I'm a woman and I can't do the one thing woman's

supposed to do. You know those are a lot of things to have to get over as hurdles all the while I have

never doubted my discernment in God. And so I think whether you're like well I feel good about my

body. I have I feel attached to my body. I can feel a cold coming on. I you know you feel

in tune and you can make those versions but you're like I can't hear from God or I don't feel like

I have discernment or the Holy Spirit. I think sometimes we have to make a choice that this is

something I want to develop. This is a skill. I think sometimes we look at spiritual practices

is something that we just innately have like you just have the gift of prayer or you have the gift

of meditation or interpretation or discernment but sometimes there are skills that I think we are

called to ask Christians as practitioners of followers of Christ that we have to practice.

I mean there's a reason why the words called practice. So I hope people don't have to go through

a traumatic situation in order to get there but for me that tends to be God needs me to sometimes

run into the sun and get face planted but before I'll ever see it because I'm that stuck

hard-headed sometimes. He's good at that though. He knows he knows who he's working with.

I mean he knows how he built me so like I don't have to whack her over the head with this one.

I mean you went through a long process, really difficult process of infercility. Not being able

to have kids right. You just talked about that. You went through an adoption process

becoming an adoptive mom and in that process and what shifted and changed in you? How did that

open yourself up? Sure, Lord. I mean it is without a doubt the single most sanctifying process

I've been through and I do not say that lightly and I say that as someone who went into it

blindly in the sense that I had no idea just how much. I mean I believe that God will use every

situation every season to sanctify us but there's just some things in our life we can point to

they're like this is where he really blew the top off for me and that was it. My husband and I

took a lot of time to work through our feelings about infertility, about the reasons why

how do we feel about not having biological children. Thankfully we had some of those conversations

even before it got married. I was never a little girl that imagined myself pregnant and I think

that was a seed God planted again in my heart as you know a little in tune little girl

and this sounds like a joke but it's not my husband has a phobia of pregnant women and I jokingly

say that it's because he watched too many Alien vs Predator movies growing up it just freaks him

out a little bit but there's these tiny little seeds that we can laugh about that are like God

preparing our hearts in our minds maybe down the road when we don't know and we end up finding

out where both infertility issues is not just my body that can't do what it's supposed to do

and so we went to the process thinking that was going to be the greatest hurdle

because that's what they warned me about you know it's getting doing the work to make sure you're not

going into the process of adopting a child to replace a child you're not going to have otherwise.

You know it is not this child's job to heal my infertility was or to replace something that I

wouldn't have otherwise that is an unfair job to put on a small human being. What I had no idea

was how it would reveal to me the fact that because of the circumstances I was born into and the

zip code that I was born into made all the difference to whether I was on the receiving island

or I was on the end of having to make a very difficult decision and so when I talk to friends

and people now they're like wow I always wanted to offer I want to adopt and I have to ask them

do they feel caught adopt because they want to add to their family they want to go their family

or do they see adoption as a lifetime ministry and do they see themselves as part of the adoption

tried as the lowest person on the totem pole where your mat your feelings your priorities matter

least even behind the person that is you know gifting you with their child like your your matters

are last because that is what we have learned and you know they can't look at me crazy but three

years ago my three years ago we went through the adoption process round for the second time our

first time with our daughters at Ian took 90 days it was insane start to finish everybody told us two

years but again I had a feeling my husband had a dream and he is not a dreamer 90 days later

exactly what he dreamed everything clockwork I mean it was like God gave us a prescription and

we filled it out it was that simple but three years later we started the process again

and we had three situations that none worked out and we were close to $30,000 into the process

that we would never receive back and you know you have people like well don't you want a petition

to get that money back or the mom should pay you back the money that you gave them to help them

through that season or pay for medical care but I'm like what picture of Christ is that give them

and if I'm the only per if our family is the only example of Christ or ministry that they ever

receive what does it say about what I believe about faith or Jesus to walk with them on a journey

but say you're only worthy of my love and attention and affection and trust if you give me something

that is the most precious thing in your life in return it is a very transactional thing and again if

if you have transactional theology it is going to be reflected in that but if you believe that we

are called to ministry and if you have a mindset that God is going to return back to you all that

you sow and that maybe you won't see it but somebody else will see it it changes the way you do it

so are you willing to risk your life savings first no one you don't know and to give them the

flexibility and the confidence to make the right decision if not you're not called to adopt now

the second question is if you're called to transactional adopt or if you are open to that are you

willing to move are you willing to move so that your child is not the only child of color in the

classroom or represented in your community and because of that I'd never had to consider a lot

through the lens of like person or like woman and in the book I talk about this the real time

experience of now as the mother to a black child watching the omit ovary case go down and I'm

you know going through my neighborhood at the time that was and very diverse and and I'm

pushing my little girl and never wants having to think do I have to be worried if she goes for a run

like something so simple that like my husband runs all the time you know his army is military

like he's all the time exercise I don't think about it you know not for racial reasons that he

should be concerned but now this is something I have to consider you know there was a guy a young

guy playing basketball aside is his mom worried you know like all these things and I'm just crying

walking through the neighborhood and then I feel not guilty I mean but that's the best way to explain

that like we're on my bike friends growing up experiencing things that I just was completely

oblivious to an answer was yes and so you know I read some really good books that really again

blew my top off one was called white fragility this when I hurt your feelings a lot but it really

has allowed me to understand and prioritize my daughter in a way that I don't think I would have had

the capacity to afford just because you don't know what you don't know and there's another one

called why do all the black kids sit together at the cafeteria I may be missing the order of those

words but it's another way to just how would you understand the psychology of how systemic issues

still exist even though it's not as blatant but they still exist and and I want to be

the best moms that it can have I owe that much not just to her but to Mama J. Janae her biological mom

that I'd be willing to put myself in an uncomfortable situation and I think that's the friction

that is the that is one of the fires like I think the litmus test for how bad do you want to have

bold and bright faith is how willing are you to sit uncomfortably are you someone that runs from

uncomfortable situations and everything has to stay on the service level because you're not

willing to sit in that feeling or do you want to go deeper and have a faith or relationship or

intimacy that can last but you don't have to really work through some things in order to get

you're not supposed to be able to punch a card to the next level and be like oh I finished reading

the Bible this year I'm a new level of Christian like that's not how it works unfortunately

but it feels that way again that's transactional if I do this then I get that but we don't see that

with Jesus in the Bible he did a lot it doesn't get anything returned ever ever I'm thinking

everybody ever gave him a birthday cake like you know and yet we want something in return and

and that's that's not a practice of Jesus that we see anywhere

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so as you walk through walk through the fire and you started to say I'm going I'm going deep I'm

I now have have empathy in places I didn't have before I could actually see and sense

people's experiences and you are somebody as you've known from an early age that you have

Holy Spirit discernment you could sense and you could feel and you could see some things that are

right and wrong and it could would probably frustrate you I'm sure there's a lot of frustrations

that have come up because of of all of those things that are happening in you and in the world

right now that we live in how do you walk with people whose veil is still over their eyes and

hasn't been lifted up yet they haven't gone through the the really work to get them to the other side

what does it look like to be in a world with people's veils over their eyes how do you not just

be angry all the time and and there that is well I have to take my flesh like the un Jesus

version of me and I tell this to my husband only time the only reason I am a good which I know

is a debatable word a good person is because of Jesus not because I wouldn't choose the right thing

but because when I see injustice the way that I'm wired I want to go and take you by the shoulders

and be like what are you doing are you kidding me this is crazy like my six-year-old could tell you

that that was a bad idea you know like and he could be in any number of things I want to yell out

quick funny story like the reason I didn't go to seminary straight out of college even though I

went to a college that had a seminary is one of my friends who he was currently in the program

sat me down for like a practice interview and the question he asked me was all right kindle now

keep in mind this is over 10 years ago you know closer to 15 and he says all right kindle which part

of Jesus's ministry do you most relate to or do you feel caught to without hesitation without

blinking I said oh the part where he flips the table over 15 years ago that was not a great dancer

you know now people use those quotes and everything everywhere it's just like the fact that 15

years ago you wanted to have admitted to having a mental health problem you also would not have

admitted to being the angry version of Jesus but in the book I walk you through a situation where

I'm asking questions about money and a church meeting as an elementary student because I'm like

the math is not mathing and I'm sitting there with my little spreadsheet my pants are mortified

and but I've always been that person I've always been that kid but it's because I believe that

Jesus's way is the right way that I know I that can't always be my approach and I said it the

other day on tiktok in response to something else but we all can't be flipping over the table

table like we're called to do different things somebody's got to set the table somebody's

God to build the table somebody's got to extend the table somebody's got to be willing to sit at

the table with their enemies I mean that's scripture too and so you say what do what do I do I

mean I'm thankful I've grown up in a church to still attend the same church where there's people

on both sides though I grew up as a little girl knowing that there were deacons that one served in

the house and one served in the center of our state and they were on other sides of the political

aisle because things that now that we call political or we think are political we're just we're

human nature humanity things like they could agree on those things but not necessarily agree on

tax policy and I'm addicted now at my church today and I serve with people again that don't all

but the same or have the exact same issues on everything and so God constantly is wanting me to sit

in that tension of wanting to shake people's shoulders sometimes but I have to realize and think

back to all the little things that I've had to experience all the things God has allowed me to

witness that he has allowed me to live through and not everyone has those things not everyone has

those experiences not everyone is privy to that information and I truly believe you cannot

know better or do better until you know better like you some people are just walking around with

mud on their eyes having no ideas there and if we can't go around pointing our fingers like

bullies on a playground and saying you look stupid well that mud on your eyes wipe it off so you

can see the truth like who is that going to convince to do anything you know you're not going to be

anywhere with that versus trying to have some dialogue with people of saying why I'm just really

interested with how you got to that belief or would you be willing to sit with me and let me explain

why I changed my mind and I really think that's the most heroic thing people could do right now

is in their lives intimately sit down the table with friends that they can care about but see

sharing posts or liking posts on Facebook and you're like I know you're a good person like I saw

you donate to the food pantry last week I saw you fill up the blessing box without asking for

anything or turn without telling a single soul and yet you're liking that thing on Facebook that is

evil but we have to care enough about our brothers and sisters in Christ to be willing to have

conversation with the Bible tells us that to go one on one and say hey like and not accusatory and

not with defense and just say well brought to there and let me share my story of how I got here

because I didn't always believe this way but I also think we've got to get back to understanding

why things like sanctification are part of our spiritual process we don't get baptized or you know

I'm baptized I like I didn't get dipped and then suddenly come up with disarmament revelation and

immediate knowledge of the whole Bible that doesn't work that way like I know I know you also do not

get a passport to heaven that is you know like that's it you know you're now in the book I believe

that's part of it but that that shouldn't be the stop some people treat it like okay I've got my ticket

let me never refer back to this moment again when I believe that we have to

reflect that's part of why we do things like communal we have to refer back to our baptism say wow

look how far I've come look how far I still have to go look what how God is working in my life

look at how Jesus is still refining me how the fire is still working on some rough edges

how it's lining up some things I need to pay attention to but if we don't the fire of anger like

that fire is figured that some of us have is going to cause us to lotter houses on fire it is going

to call us to blow up our lives or burn bridges you know fire is a good thing and it can be a bad

thing it depends on how we choose to use it or wield it and again I think we have to remember

that we have autonomy we have choice and sometimes the choice has to be to go deeper the choice

has to be to be willing to sit in control with people when we want to just yell and scream and shout

you know there's time and place for that and like I say to my husband that I wish I was one

of his people we could just let go and let God but I'm not that's not the way he built me but I

take one thing that's really conveyed to me over the last couple of years is you know we say

the Lord's Prayer all the time and you know I we grew up saying it before basketball games in

my small town you know in public school but the fact that we say on earth as it is in heaven

has been a commissioning statement to me over the last two years is that it's not my job to wait

till I get to heaven to experience the goodness of God it's my job as a conduit of Christ to bring

heaven here so that it is so tempting and hopeful and that light is so bright people are like man I

want a piece of that and not only do I want a piece of it I want to experience that forever

and so I want to reach up to heaven bring that here so that people want to and not take that

passive stance you're kind of saying I'm like well God God's going to figure out that we were told

things were going to get bad let me just watch it be bad how do we be the light in those situations

I was talking to into right yesterday and it is this quote which is what you just talked about

says the church is meant to be neither more nor less than the community that displays God's

homecoming to the world that displays heaven on earth that's what we're supposed to be we're

supposed to be that conduit what you just said like hey your kingdom come you're will be done

on earth as it is in heaven and he's using us the body of Christ through his Holy Spirit to say hey

people I'm here this is what it looks like what does that look like when you're angry so

as you then say okay I know that I have to have a relationship with this people I can't burn

everything down but you could take your anger to God and you could be angry and prayer first

and I don't think a lot of people have permission to say be angry at God it's okay to be angry at

God how does that help to give it to God your anger and then let his spirit move in you to know

what is the right discernments and wisdom to live out in the world yeah and they're always

amazing as me when people are like you can't question God you can't be angry God like you can't

take quote unquote negative connotative emotions to God Jesus literally said Lord will you take

this cut for me like that is a question and that is a frustrated statement and Jesus was frustrated

in that moment the whole garden situations one of my favorite scenes in the whole Bible because it

to me is where humanity and divinity meet and I I think when God can handle our anger we would not

be given anger just as this tool to remind us of our humanity there there is such thing as righteous

anger I mean in some part of that sometimes me going to prayer and being like God why in the world

would you make me surrounded by people they don't have this revelation and they don't believe my

like like me just getting hyped up and saying like can you not just pour some of that for them

like why am I surrounded by all these people who just don't want to get it you know like he can

handle that like I don't know why we got this God that feels like he can only handle these

pristine quiet liturgical like they're beautiful and have their place but

can't handle the wide range of measures I hate that we feel that way because I believe he can handle

all and he wants to see it all it's much better for you to take it to God than take it to the streets

I mean let's be honest but also to me channel that anger like use that anger as action

you know I believe that action concur anxiety I learned that with anxiety like I just need to get

up and I need to move but I also think that action can make our anger not only feel justified is

not the correct word but it but it's like I'm doing something with it so whether that is you

need to make some phone calls to senators or I need to like when we were worried about some of our

local community losing benefits and hunger and our school systems title one here like I was angry

about that because you know these are the kids my daughters in class with and so I'm angry it's like

really like there's so many other things we can be doing like I worry about children and so

channeling that anger into okay well what can I do what resources do I have and I'm like well I'm

really good at placing a Walmart order and so I can I've got this little extra money I can spend

how far can I get go like channeling that anger into action you know once you've gave it to God

and I think you would be surprised that when we take our anger or we take these bubbling over

feelings and we take it to God and we just release it how that gives us to capacity for creativity

to come in for us to come in and then have these new revelation of oh this is what I can do

this is how I can take action but when we let that anger faster it's taking up so much capacity in

our spirit it becomes noise because we're just testering there's no capacity for creativity

or disarmament or revelation because all we feel is that far that we need to release somewhere

I think a lot of people feel like you know you we have that fire we have that anger but a lot of

people within the faith community feel like certainty is the goal like we want to have we just

want to know the right answer and then everything will be okay and we then feel like we have the

right answer so we get to tell everybody else this is the right answer and we don't have to change

but you talk about the goal doesn't just certainty but it's courage what does courageous faith look

like I think it's sometimes saying the thing that needs to be said when it's not necessarily a popular

opinion and I think there's a way to say it I think there's a way to say it with kindness

with compassion I think a lot of times it comes with narrative with the exploitation of how I got

there but saying the thing needs to be said or standing up when everyone else is sitting down

and and that can go for a lot of things you know I think when we think of courage we think of

like the line or we think of David versus Glaf like these very huge monumental moments when sometimes

I think those moments of courage are easier because it's very black and white somebody's got to do

it I'm the person I'm the person standing here with a slingshot is my turn you know when

I see courage right now and was revealed to me in 2020 was standing up when I have every reason

to sit down when no one's going to be upset with me for sitting down when no one's expecting me

to stand up I can take the passive choice because it's more comfortable because it's easier

because it keeps me safe but I don't think you can have self-preservation and courage at the same

time self-preservation is kind of the opposite of courage and what is self-preservation

based on is pride ego like I'm worried that I have to control things or have control of things

because if not it won't work out but it goes back to that worry that that do we truly trust that

God is going to show up for us do we truly trust that God is working out the details

and so I think right now courage looks like being that one person on your Facebook timeline

that says I don't have all the answers but this is what is bothering me or this is where

it hurts me to see Christians show up in this way or whatever the thing is that's been in the back

of your mind keeping you up at night and you can't sleep or maybe it's a conversation I don't think

it has to be these martyr moments you know John of Archer these moments were like coming in guns blazons

I actually think the way that Christ was courageous was the moment that he just simply made the

choice he didn't have to make like when he stepped in for the woman of the well when he you know

when the woman was going to be stoned he didn't have to do that he could have kept walking like

literally no one was looking for him to do that no one was looking for a hero

but he saw an opportunity to step in the gap and I think as Christians next kind of part of

conversation to me is is how do we become Gapodena Vires how do we see life there are lens of situations

where we can give glimpses of Christ instead of the first part of just wanting to be on the

receiving end of seeing God how do we then become from going from defense to office of okay the

balls in my court now how do I exemplify Christ to other people when a lot of times that is counter

cultural and even culture as a Christian culture which is really hard you know but but looking back

that's what it was with like pretty culture like that was Christian culture so standing up and

saying like hey intention is good here methodology not so great or it's causing the same kind of

harm you're trying to prevent so let's rework this and I think that's the hardest part right now

is saying I'm willing to stand up and identify the friction and say hey we need to pay attention

to this and the part of that is sitting in that version but I think the most encouraging thing to

me is beyond through this book through these conversations I've been having with people over time

is I do think there is a rising group of people that are filling these friction things they're

trying to put a name on it they're like I do believe in God I believe Christ is the way that I

want to live my life and follow but man it feels like we have missed the plot you know like and what

do we do with that and and I want to say whoa well they're come over here sit down with me these

are the cars that I want to have because I'm feeling the same way and have been my whole life but

I've finally got verbiage around it and everyone seems to be feeling in that same way and so I think

don't look for a moment that you've got to go win a war by yourself but look for the tiny moments

that maybe the most uncomfortable moment that you have to be that one person at the dinner table

Christmas or a family get together and says hey actually that's not true about that group of people

it's not okay to say that that takes a lot of courage especially when it's people you know and love

but if we truly love those people when we want them to know the whole truth and to see people

and the world through the through the lens of Christ and just pointing them back to that I think

that's true love. A couple quick questions I have here at the end one if you could go back to your

21 year old self what advice would you give? I mean I have silly like things I would say like do not

dye your hair back that color like it is going to ruin it you know like little moments of that

but it is so hard to say 21 year old self don't do this or don't do that I think I would reinforce

trust your gut and the work of the Holy Spirit in your life and the feelings you're feeling

right now the friction about shame the friction about believing that God has called you to be

in ministry but in a non-traditional way as crazy as people want to make you feel right now

when you sit out loud you were listening to the right voice you're not crazy and so I I was

think at 21 we're all doing the best we can with what we have but I really think I could have used

to more affirmation and so if I could look back as a big sister and just say you're doing it

it's not popular what you're doing and choosing you know and I know it's lonely sometimes

so to be left out and to be not invited and you know to be misunderstood but I think I could

I really wish I could go back and hug my 21 year old self and I think if you know a 21 year old

one year old just give him a hug and just I think acknowledge that you're doing the best you can

with what you have and and that's all we can ask anyone without a pre-developed frontal cortex

great that's good anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend

oh my gosh okay this is going to be the nerd part of me okay yeah and again I'm

butchered the name of it and I might have to get it created send it to you but it's called

like an American takes on the estates or the aristocracy and I don't know I said that word

bro in Europe but you're like going into like the by counts house in Ireland or the dukes house

and my husband are both big history nerds we live in an old home and I am just always interested

in the context like if I could go back to school right now for anything it would be the hermeneutics

of the Bible because I think understanding history adds a much color to everything and so watching

you show that tells me about why they had this certain color ceiling and the certain color rooms

to make this the effect I'm like I'm all in I'm sitting there with popcorn like yes please tell me

more you know and so that is on paramount plus for any other history or architectural

nerds that enjoy things like that well this little fire of mine will be out and available anywhere

books are sold so people can go and get that is there anywhere people can connect with you where

would you like to point them to how can you they get more information about the book too yeah

I'm everywhere at Kindle Mariah that's Instagram Facebook TikTok all the same name and like

you said my book is everywhere and it is audible version two and yes I'm the one reading it

I know why everybody thinks that is such an unusual thing maybe because sometimes on TikTok

the hateful comments say I need constant subtitles but yeah I think even if you are beyond the point

of deconstructing and you stayed and you're like already been there done that I hope that

if nothing else this book will give you perspective because a lot of people make assumptions

about people who would like me talk like me dress like me and that we have a very

particular view of the world or experience of the world and I think the best way that we can

become better humans better followed a Christ is to listen to each other's stories and when we

understand and listen to other people's stories I think we can be better stewards of love and

compassion and so I'm constantly telling stories on Instagram and all those places I'd love to

meet y'all there and most active but thank you so much for having me this has been such a fun

conversation and I just appreciate you allow me to go all the way on on all these things

well thank you for going all the way and it's made it for a great conversation I really enjoyed

love talking to you so thank you Kendall for walking us through what it looks like really to live

in the disappointment delusionment live in the friction actually have God work it out take our

anger to God to actually be heaven on earth and be the conduit of who Jesus is what he's doing and

it's how he can actually be working in the world and saying hey if there's something that's not

right we could say here's a story to say let's look at it from a different way different perspective

and see what God's heart is for these people here on earth so thank you it was fantastic I really

loved it thank you so much for having me

thanks for listening to this episode of shifting culture this show was edited and produced by me

Joshua Johnson at shifting culture productions if you're enjoying the conversations consider supporting

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