Ep. 435 | Western Tag Draw Strategies with Huntin’ Fool

0:00Welcome to the Vortex Nation Podcast brought to you by lovers of hunting, shooting, public lands, the Second Amendment, and good food. What is up everybody? Mark on the mic here at the Conservation Expo in Salt Lake City joined by my very good friend, Mr. Austin Atkinson from Hunt and Fool. If you guys aren't familiar with Hunt and Fool and Austin can explain this a lot better than I can, but you guys specialize in really a lot of things Western big game, but one of those things being Western big game tags, draw odds, hunts, things of that nature. And I think the primary focus of our conversation today is going to be a little bit of a state of the Western tag draw odds union, which is, I mean, that's a big topic, but I think to simplify it, boil it down a little bit, and maybe a little bit of strategy, strategy

1:02stuff as well. Practice my words. We're on day four of the show here in Austin. I think I tired of talking to people. I might be out of words right now. I don't know. It's been great. It's awesome. Crew of folks. I mean, this is the last of the show. The booth is still pretty jammed up right now early in the day. It's cool. It's always one of my favorites and it's always great to see you. Yeah. It's been awesome. It's been really busy and just like everything else. It's not getting any cheaper. And guys are trying to plan, trying to find hunts, find gear, use their money and their time wisely. Yeah. Boy, I mean, you nailed it on the cost too, like it just, it really is going up. There's a lot of hunts that, you know, you're like, oh, maybe that's a little too rich for my blood right now, but in like, in two years, I'll go. But then you're just kind of like, you're always chasing it there. You know, point creep, you know, we can talk a little bit about that. But you think, oh, next year, and you're kind of, you know, you chased that a little bit too. Yeah. What's going on? I mean, what are you seeing out there? I mean, it's so easy to get discouraged right now. That's what we're really trying to do is keep people encouraged.

2:05There's still opportunities, but you can't do it all. There's no shotgun approach anymore. Everybody's got finite finances and we just have to say, this is what I want to do. This is my budget. This is my time. And you should probably do it. There's no sit-around and waiting. What are you saving for? That's what I asked everybody. Not this year, because everybody wants to say it. In a couple of years, I'm going to do this hunt or draw this tag. It's like, why not just do it now? Yeah. Let's get it on the books, get it scheduled. So. Well, and do you have any tips for doing it now? Because some of the stuff, it can be hard to plan because it's a little bit up in the air, different states. You know, their apps are doing it different times. The results come out at different times. Do you tell a person who is trying to plan, but you kind of have to contend with those things as well? Sure. If you're just planning your fall season this next fall, that's probably too late. You really need to look at a five or a 10-year type strategy and say, OK, I really want

3:08to hunt Montana elk. OK, do you want to hunt it twice in the next 10 years, three times? Let's schedule that and then work in Wyoming elk. Do you want to hunt that twice in the next 10 years on a general tag? We can do that. But you can't just say I'm going to apply for everything and decide in June what I'm doing this fall. It doesn't really work that way. Yes, on some of the random draw states like New Mexico or Idaho, that could happen. You could get lucky. You could draw a tag. But those are filler states. Fill those in on the years that you don't have something scheduled. But just waiting to decide your fall, it's too late. In most cases, you need a pointer too. You've got to jump through some hoops by some preference points the year before. So we need some more planning. So get a multi-year calendar and it's crazy. The people that still don't have a calendar planned out with their spouse, like sit down and plan something. You know, our parents aren't getting any younger. If you want to hunt with your dad someday, you probably need to plan that because they're

4:10getting older times flying by. Oh, man. I mean, you said it. I'm noticing that more every single day and next year, next year, next year, oftentimes turns into never. Totally. Especially with hunts like Alaska, right? Oh, yeah. I've been wanting to do a caregiver and most hunt. If you don't have a plan, you're probably not going to do it. Yeah. It's going to get more expensive. It's going to get more complicated. Things just happen in life. So I'm kind of a believer now in this schedule. You're happiness. I don't schedule time to be happy, schedule time to be with your family, schedule time to be in the field. Even over a multi-year calendar, you're not going to do it. Yeah. There's too much noise. I mean, it's like, I mean, most of us, you know, have jobs. We work. And I know for me, like, if it's not in my calendar, it's not real. That's right. So I mean, I just talk and applies for that applies for some of these applications as well. It does. It really does.

5:11We're honest in all of our consultations. There's no do-it-all approach for anybody. It's too expensive. It doesn't make sense. I'll never tell a guy, just applying every Western state for alcohol. Well, it's a waste of money in some states. So depending on what your budget is and what tolerance you have for drugs, Utah might be a state. I tell you, don't apply as an on-residence. It's too expensive. The odds are too slim. Let's just not do it. And so the mentality has changed since, you know, 20 years ago where just do everything and you'll get some great hunts, doesn't make sense for most people. What's your age? What's your physical abilities? What are your goals? And it's not the same for two people. It's always different. It isn't. And, you know, that do-it-now philosophy or as soon as you can makes a lot of sense. There's some hunts that I have done a couple times that I kind of took for granted because there would just be like a leftover tag or something like that. Like, you could use it as a fill in hunt. Like, I didn't do this and this and this. So, oh, boom. I'm going to pick up this leftover tag.

6:13And now those hunts are taking, you know, two, three, four points. Right? Yeah, it's changed. So, everything's getting more expensive. As we know, states are trying to keep up with inflation, trying to, you know, gouge this non-residence, but they're also the demand keeps rising. So, a huge bump in COVID. And that COVID bump has simmered out a little bit, but it's still way higher than it was pre-COVID. A lot of people want to get outside. I mean, we can feel it here at the conservation expo that everybody is here. They want to go, they want to talk about it, and the sad reality is most of them don't plan well enough to actually do it. There's a lot of people in here that will not hunt this year. It's just too hard to get tags. You can't hunt in your home state. If you don't have opportunities there, out of state's expensive and it takes some planning. Well, and that's what you guys specialize in, right, you know, a person can call you. And maybe they have some, you know, some rough ideas of what they want to do.

7:15But I mean, that's where you guys can really shine and nail down a plan that's going to work for them and be, you know, customized to, you know, maybe where they're at. And, you know, some of these states as far as, you know, points and things of that nature, maybe they don't have any. Like you said, it's going to be different for everybody. Yeah. And, you know, a person with a pile of points in the state, they're going to have a different opportunity than the person who doesn't. Sure. And there's always that luck, that random chance. And you still have to, you know, try for that. We still have to throw our name in, where it makes sense and it's not super expensive. Like my younger sister, she's in her early 30s, she's kind of a hunter. She hunted when she was younger, shot an elk with me, shot a deer with my dad. But I always keep him playing her. Well, and she draws a desert big horn sheep tag last year in Arizona with 10 points. Like, we didn't plan for that. No. But it's worth doing $15 application as an on-resident.

8:15That was one I said, we're going to put your name in. She may have gone her entire life and never drawn. And that's okay. Not everybody gets to hunt sheep, but she drew. And it made a fabulous hunt for me and my family to go with her and experience something that you just can't experience. I mean, that is incredible. I mean, and it's one of those classic stories of, it does happen, it does happen. And it happens to somebody and it definitely could be you. It hasn't been me yet. Yeah. But, but it does. I mean, every year here, I know somebody that draws a premiere tag and, you know, it might as well be you or could be you. Gosh, dare to dream. That's where I'm at, just, oh, there's hope, there's hope. You know, we get accused sometimes at hunt and full. This is our full-time job. Well, you guys just know how to find the best hunts or you're just extra lucky. It's like, things just happen. You know, sometimes we critique those that hunt a lot. It's like, well, their name's in the hat and way more than you.

9:17They're out there planning and scheduling these hunts. So yeah, they do hunt more than you. Don't get jealous. Don't get upset. Just do what they're doing. Yeah. The part of that planning too is, you know, a lot of these apps, you know, this is at press time or in February, you know, they start pretty early, you know, I mean, I think the last time we podcasted together was here at the show. So February, December, you know, the Alaska apps are doing December. So if there was something special that you wanted to do in Alaska, you're waiting, you know, and I really like to, I really like to bear hunt. If you missed that bear app, that's almost like waiting for two years. That's right. Yeah. You're, you're way early. So the, the first big deadline for me when you're in the fall is your point only deadlines. And so that's going to be organ the end of September and Wyoming in the end of October. That's where you say, I got a plan for next year, am I buying my points? So you buy your points for the next year.

10:19And then like you said, December 15th is Alaska and Idaho general draw. That's right. And on the same day, and that's your first big draws where if you miss them, you're out. You know, you miss that whole year, like you said, that's early. December, a lot of people are still finishing up their whitetail seasons or waterfowl. They're not thinking about next year yet, but the states keep moving these deadlines earlier and earlier. It's a money grab at a state level. They want to get your money before you spend it in another state. That's why Wyoming ends their elk in January, trying to grab everybody's money before they go to other places. Right. It's a race. I'd say the only positive of that though is like we're talking about planning. It does give you a little bit more cushion to get situated, maybe do some scouting or things like that or at least plan, you know, you know earlier, I guess is what I'm saying. Sure. Yeah. And don't get discouraged. So many guys, they're overwhelmed by drugs. I don't have time to look at all of this. I don't know what I'm even looking at.

11:20That's where we just try to help with our personal consultations and it's fun to help someone plan like, why are you not doing anilope in Wyoming every four or five years? You like anilope? Let's plan it. Yeah. Let's split points with your kids. Why are you not applying your kids every day here at the show? I talked to people that are, they're not selfish. They're just worried about their own hunting goals and they forget about their kids, like put your kids in. So as they're nine years old, they need to be taken under safety, online or in person and start doing something to have some points. Well, and that's something you've mentioned before and it's not only building points, but there's some special opportunities there as well. So much cheaper, so much cheaper for kids. I mean, they can go deer hunting Arizona for $30 as a non-resident, right? They can go to Colorado, just over $100 for an elk or deer license. Way cheaper than what we pay, I mean, exponentially cheaper, so it's dumb to not take your kids. I'll use that as a two-prong excuse. I get to be with my kids outside and it's a heck of a lot cheaper for me to go experience

12:25a unit or a state that I haven't hunted in. Take your kids first. It's lower stress. You're not looking for trophy, you're not entitled to anything. Go deer hunt with them. All these states, it's cheaper. Yeah. For a person who is maybe just getting into this, you know, pretty daunting, right? Like we've talked about, like every state does a little bit different. There's a lot to learn. It can be a little bit convoluted. There's so much information out there. We've also never had better tools or better people to talk to to get this information. But what, I mean, we get that question a lot of more text. I want to go on my first Western hunt. What species should I chase? Where should I, you know, what state should I go in? But like, what would be an overall general strategy for that person to go? And then, I guess my follow-up question to that is, you know, a lot of these states, premier tags, it takes, you know, X amount of years to draw, but that seems to be changing every day. So, if you're just getting into it, like, what should be your strategy or your realistic

13:27expectation of how it should work for you? Hmm. Good question. And it's a complicated answer a little bit. Just if someone can come to me and say, I'm interested in elk, archery, I have two expectations. Like, that's enough information to start building a plan. And if you can't answer which species, how much time you have on what weapon you are, there's not a real good answer for that person. So, I'd like to give guys a list. There's 29 North American big game species. What's at the top of the list? Do you really want to hunt elk? Do you want to hunt them during the rut? Do you want to hunt meal deer? Those seem to be the two most popular species for coming out west. Okay, if we start with elk, I'm going to put Wyoming, Montana, Colorado, those top of your list. I want you to have points in Montana to get the general license, points in Wyoming for a five or six year rotation to get a general tag there in Colorado, plenty of elk hunting opportunities. Those are kind of my three primary states for that.

14:30Then we can start saying, okay, now let's potentially add Idaho, potentially add the New Mexico random draw, but states like Arizona, Nevada, Utah, they have giant trophy bowls. I'm not even going to recommend those until maybe third tier to that person, just it's expensive. Yeah, there's big bowls, but the cost of applying, buying the license versus the drugs and how long you got to realistically wait, it's not worth it. So those states cut way early for me in the plan. If you go meal deer, it's pretty similar. Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, as long as you're a rifle hunter, those are the states. I want you to have a point or two and all of those and start planning when you can go. There's no like, let's just wait 10 years and maybe get lucky. No, those are must apply states for easy to draw tags, be realistic, plan a hunt and you can do it. Our tree or rifle. But all the states you hear the most about, Utah, Nevada, you know, all these giants, those

15:33probably aren't the states. I'm going to tell someone out east to come to the west and hunt right away, it's just not realistic. What's your recommendation for like, like if a person, they've just never done it, you know, maybe they've done some white tail hunting and they want, they're like, I want to have my first western hunt, is there something that you put, point them towards? Um, it depends that a hunt I really enjoy is honestly here in Utah and that would be an archery elk hunt over the counter, right? So all the trophy units in Utah are in a draw. You must apply by the end of April, super difficult draw ads, but you can still buy an over the counter archery license to hunt almost statewide. The only difference is some units where there's lots of elk you have to shoot a spike or a cow and other units you can shoot any bull or cow that you find. Well, that's a great opportunity to come to Utah. There's lots of public land. You can hunt where there's a lot of elk, they're bugling, they're fighting, you're hunting.

16:33You know, in August, first two weeks of September, with a bow, you're in a good spot, you can only shoot the spike or the cow elk, but that's a killer western experience in my mind where if you want to practice calling out, getting close to elk and a great experience, it's fun. And there's not a lot of hunters doing it. Hmm, that's interesting. That's not one that I would have thought of, but like you said, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, you're hunting, you're going to get to see, hopefully, some big bulls, you're going to get to see some running activity. And you're not going to necessarily have that crazy pressure of like, oh, I'm trying to get the big bull because I got, you know, 24 points and this, whatever, you know, you get to hopefully get some opportunities, maybe multiple opportunities because sometimes it takes a few to get an elk, a couple, I know it does for me. And hopefully you come home with some meat and you get to pack an animal off the mountain, you get to use your backpack and see how, you know, you're using all the tools that you're going to need while you're out here and get some reps in. Yeah, it's the experience.

17:34And so I, I've been focusing more on the experience of the hunt, more so than just notch in the tag or finding something big. Yes, could you do what we just talked about in a different state and go to Idaho, archery, hunting or go to Colorado? Yes, you could. Could you find a bigger bull? Yeah, you might be able to, but the experience might not be the same. You have a lot of resident hunters. If you're starting a ground zero and you've never hunted elk, it might be a lot of a buckkicker. You know, it might be tough to find what you're looking for, but come to Utah, take advantage of our over the counter unlimited archery tag setup and get some reps under your belt. And then you can start looking at, okay, when I do go to Wyoming in two years or I do go to Idaho on a general tag, I've got some elk experience now and I know what I'm looking for because it's overwhelming. It's intimidating and it's not meant to be just doing an experience. Blackbird hunting is a great excuse to come to a state that you might elk or deer hunt someday, but buying over the counter blackbird tag, come out, see what it's like and find

18:38a lot of guys on the East Coast that have never been out west. And it's so overwhelming when they get out here, they're like, I don't know where to start. I don't even have the right gear. I don't know how to hike in these mountains. I don't know where to scout. So make an excuse, bring your family out, do a spring blackbird hunt or come out in the summer, just do something and instead of just talking about it. Yeah. And like you said, I mean, those are oftentimes good opportunity hunts. There's several states that have over the counter tags for black bears. Not, they're not the most popular. So sometimes you get the woods to yourself. Sometimes you can use, you know, you're getting to use a rifle early in the season when it would be, you know, generally for deer elk or things like that, you'd be limited to like a bow oftentimes during maybe a similar time frame and at least in some of the states that I black bear hunted. Yeah, I think that's a great idea and you're talking about gear. I mean, do you guys can help with that too? We sell a lot of gear to people that are coming out west and it's fun to have a gear consultation when someone's trying to make sure they're comfortable and they're prepared

19:39to come out. But I don't ever want gear to overshadow experience. Yeah. Sometimes, especially here at the Hunxbo, you see all these trinkets, all these gadgets and you're like, I can buy my way to success. You know, many times I've bought like a workout plan or protein or weight loss. We think we can buy our way to health, right? Like it just doesn't work. You have to do the work of what it takes and hunting is the same way. I can buy a billion tripods and backpacks. It's not going to make me kill elk unless I'm actually out there doing it year after year. So take a lot of your budget and put it towards hunts and gas and hotels and not just spend it on gear. Yeah. I mean, that's a really good tip and it seems simple and you wouldn't think that it's the hardest part, but actually committing and going and not saying next year, that really can be the hardest part. It can.

20:40I don't know if it's just decision fatigue or what it is, but life is so busy. There's so many different directions you can get pulled and people need your time and work demands a lot. We're always connected. So schedule some time to be happy and have an experience and that's the biggest thing for me. Like we just released our video that we did with Eric and Cooper up there in Alaska, right? A black bear hunting with my wife and as I reflect back watching that film, it's awesome to remember why I went. It wasn't kill a black bear. I don't like to meet that much. I don't need another black bear hide. I don't even need to pull the trigger on anything. I needed to spend time with family and friends. That's really what I needed and the knowledge I gained, the experience I gained, I went trade for anything. Yeah. Well, we talked a little bit about some of these draws that are in the rear view mirror. What do we have kind of on the horizon here in this time frame? Yeah.

21:40Big one is New Mexico, which is March 18th. So we've got totally random draw. No points. You have to front the license fee. It gets expensive. But if you've got room on a credit card, you can apply for any species in New Mexico. Just a total random state. So no points, no waiting periods, nothing. If you get the tag, great. That's a big one. Coming into April 1st, we've got Montana, Deer and Elk. That's a general tag and the limited tag drawing. So if you were trying to get a general season license for Montana, April 1st is your deadline there. As you get into April in May, you've got all sorts of deadlines, Utah, the end of April, sheet moose goat, bison, a couple of states will end Wyoming and Montana. There's all sorts of deadlines still coming up. They trickle through. You almost have to set a reminder in your phone, say maybe every Sunday night, I'm going to look at this week's deadlines and do a little research to see if I'm applying. If you don't like keeping up with all that, that's part of our business. We apply people on their behalf and we do it in 22 states.

22:45So set it and forget it and we'll make sure you never miss a deadline. Pretty handy tool that I should probably leverage because as much as I pay attention and like I feel like I'm pretty dialed with when it comes to this stuff, man, every now and again I'll hit a year and I'll miss a year in a key state that I'm super interested in. Generally, it's actually the exact day after it closes and I go, oof, that's when you remember. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. We're all busy. We're all running around. Some states you can apply on your phone, but do you have all your data? Do you have all the information in front of you? It's a hassle. And so what it points me in years is basic terms. So like I said, when you miss one, you can't just buy two next year. These states, it's a waiting period. It reflects how many years you've applied and I have over 30 points in some states, which is ridiculous. I don't feel that old, but I do.

23:46And that means I've waited 30 years of no experiences for that species. So don't plan too long of a strategy. Don't get discouraged. Look at the two to five year or five point hunts and that's where I want most new hunters to sit. Yeah. Yeah. It's so much better to go than not go. For sure. Even if it's not successful, like how do you define success, right? How do you define a good time? So many people, I feel bad for them because I feel this huge urgency in my life to take my kids and take them now. And it's not easy to drag kids out on a hunt. No. My two oldest and my wife had deer tags in Arizona last year and we drug all the kids. Winter clothes, extra snacks, goldfish, you know, everything to get them out there and be on the mountain while we were shooting while we were hunting. That's not easy. No. Some people said that's stupid. Why did you take your kids? Leave them at home, get a babysitter, but they can't have those experiences at home.

24:52And so I will sacrifice time, energy, money, sanity, whatever to drag them out there and let them fall and get hurt in the woods. So that's what my dad did to me and I think it's the right thing to do. No, those are all good experiences that they'll remember for the rest of their lives. So and it is important to remember because that is hard, right? And that it's a whole extra layer of stuff and it makes it harder and you can't go as far as maybe you want to go. I mean, it can be limiting and you're on this hunt and, you know, you have the skull or you know, you really want to get one, but yeah, no, it's important to do that other stuff as well. It's just on some people are in the limiting out phase and they just want to kill, kill, kill and fill all their tags and that's fine. Hunt for whatever reason you need to. I'm transitioning into I want experiences with my kids and it really matters who I'm with more than just killing or killing the biggest. Yeah, I'd love a big meal there just like the next guy and I'll try my best, but I just

25:52want time out there and that's why this conservation expo is fun to talk here stories and see what people are doing because you can't do it all. Yeah. Yeah. Any other things a person should be thinking about with the upcoming draws or anything that we didn't cover at hunting full that a person might want to know about. Yeah, I think it's just be careful where you're getting your information. That's always my warning, I guess. So easy to start an Instagram channel or YouTube channel and sell film and say you're an expert at draws and hunting and you might be pretty knowledgeable, but watch where you're getting your information. There's so much noise out there on forums, there's so much noise on websites and professed experts, everybody's trying to get a little piece of the pie and suck money out of you where they can. But just be careful who you're listening to. We've all got hunting buddies that have told us about a hunt or a state or something we should do and just take it with a grain of salt, check it and make a plan that fits

26:57you because you may have totally different goals than the next guy. And so don't let someone tell you all this state's great, they have big bucks or big bulls and think you should throw $200 at it for every year, like it's probably not worth it for you. So check it, use our resources or unbiased, we don't get paid by any states or anybody to get you to apply there, we just want to spend your money wisely. Well, for sure. And speaking of spending money and sometimes it can fast track your way into a hunt and not be going with an outfitter. For sure. And you guys have some recommendations there as well. Yeah, and you know, used to be able to book outfitted hunts in the spring, you know, for that same year in the fall, but you have to plan early now. Even an outcome, a deer hunt, you want to look at two, three years out, get on the list, even in a state where you have to draw, these outfitters know who's going to draw based on a preference draw. So plan earlier than you think, it's not getting cheaper, some will allow you to do payment plans, some will, you know, allow you to work your way into a deposit, whatever

28:02it may be, but get on the books. If you just wait like we used to to tell draws come out and then think you can book an outfitter, that might not be an option. But we've had all our outfitters, the best we can get reviews and reports from each of our hunters. And we provide guided hunts all over the world for those looking for it. So we act as a full service booking agency for. How do anything you want to hunt? What's next for you? What do you want to hunt? We'll get you booked. I'm ready. I've been talking to you guys a little bit about some things, but yeah, I mean, well, and then is there do some outfitters, you know, have access to land on her takes too though? They do. Yep. And a lot of the states, you still have to jump through, say, the hoops of a draw like Montana, lots of deer and elk consider pretty reasonably priced, guided, private land, but they still have to get you a general license through the draw. So they're going to want to talk to you in December. Make sure you buy your preference point, apply you in the draw.

29:02So you got to plan a little bit. Some states do have true landowner tags like Colorado, New Mexico, but they're expensive. Right. So generally the the draw route in some of those states is still quite a bit cheaper. Mexico landowner tags for all species are way overpriced in my opinion. Colorado can still be reasonable, but you're going to spend a few extra thousand dollars to get a landowner tag in those states. So that's where it does make sense to have some preference points built up and plan early so you know how to avoid that. Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, I mean, there's no question about it. We're in the heart of app season right now, but like you said, even if you're, you know, you're applying in the state, building a point, buying a point this year, you know, a lot of the stuff that we're thinking about really isn't even for this upcoming fall. Right. Right. It really isn't. You need to plan early and you need to not just look at all the data and all the tools

30:08out there, but talk to somebody, right? That's we've tried to stay as personal as a company as we can. We're have a bunch of people on our staff that are willing to talk and help and trying to keep it as personal as possible. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Well, hey, man, I appreciate it. It is always great chatting with you folks out there if you're interested in going on a Western Han or building points or, you know, defining your strategy. These are the guys to call. They can, they can really help you out with it. They're experts. They eat, sleep, breathe it every single day. And boy, build your points and mark your calendars, mark your multi-year calendar. Yeah. If you don't have a, I call it my bucket list, I feel a little young to be working on my bucket list, but there is a bucket list. These are the species and experiences I'd like to have. And let's plan it. I don't care if it's 10 or 20 years from now. Let's set some goals, some goal posts. Yeah. And let's kill that moves or kill that elk that you've always been talking about. I love it, man. Get it in the calendar.

31:09Make it real. And maybe we'll see you guys out in the field on your Western hunt. That's right. We'll find the sea customers and happy clients. Awesome. Awesome. All right. Well, happy hunting and shooting everybody. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you on the next one. Bye. All right. That'll wrap it up for this episode of the Vortex Nation podcast. Thanks, everybody, for listening. If you like what you hear, hit that subscribe button. Give us a review or leave a comment. We want to hear what you have to say. If you have a question or topic suggestion, let us know that as well via the Vortex Nation podcast, YouTube page, or any of Vortex's social platforms. It helps us cover exactly what you want to hear so we can provide the best information to help you with your hunting, shooting, and related activities, and ultimately enjoy them to their fullest potential. Thanks again for listening. We'll catch you on the next one.