Ep1088 - Going Deeper with Keenyah Hill

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Thank you.

We're very excited to have you. We're very excited to have this conversation,

and just to be with you. I always, I'm just kind of curious, obviously,

the America's Next Top Model documentary and Netflix dropped a couple of weeks ago.

Everyone's been talking about it. Everyone's been watching it. There's been so many

opinions and feelings and people that are doing press, but I imagine for you and a lot of the other

models who have been in part of the show, that experience might have been a little different than,

say, the average viewer who was just watching it as a fan, and I'm just curious, what was that

like watching it back, and how did you go about watching it? Watching the documentary itself.

I had a little watch party. I had some friends over my system. Yeah, a little support system.

My mom came with me. It's really interesting, just TV, land, and general. I understand that

documentaries all have their sense of storytelling, and you go and you answer a bunch of questions,

and I really wanted to have a really balanced approach because I appreciated being on the show,

but it's really nerve-wracking, not knowing exactly what the angle is going to be.

Yeah. Was there almost a little bit of even filming the documentary itself, almost a little

away triggering, almost brought you back to when you were filming the actual TV show,

because having that uncertainty of, I'm doing this, but I don't know how it's going to come across.

Yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting, especially because the show was so long ago,

but they were asking a lot of the same questions that I've been answering for the last

20 years, so it's not like it was tough, but definitely watching clips back because I haven't

watched the show. I was 19. I was a child, and I've just grown so much since then, so it's just

like kind of cringed to watch, really, and so seeing those clips come back up, it's definitely

like a little triggering and stuff, but I had a blast on the show. I just have to say,

I had a really good time on the show. I'm really proud to have been on America's next top model,

and so it's not like this sad scar of my life. It's really led to what I'm doing now.

Well, it's so interesting. I grew up watching the show, and it's what made me want to be a model,

and it's so weird watching it back today, because you're just like, I remember this stuff happening,

but I was just, it all just looked so fun. They were on writing elephants and doing all

these crazy things, and it was like, this is so cool, and so it was now watching it back with

an adult perspective. You're like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have been watching that at such a young

impressionable age. Now I do realize maybe some things were wrong, and things shouldn't have

been said. Did you watch your season back before you did the documentary?

I did not watch the season back only because I lived it, and I kind of already had a sense of

the things that happened on the show, but something that is really important for me to say is that

I am so grateful to Tyra for choosing me to be a part of the show. It was such a huge dream of mine

to be on that show and be in the modeling industry, and there were certain things going into it.

I knew this was going to be a TV show. There was not like, I think that it's unfair for us to

really use this lens of today on a show at that time, only because it really was a different time.

I know that a lot of people have really been happy with hearing that, oh, it was a different time,

but it really was. It really was a different time. It was like, the beginning of reality TV,

it was on the same time, it was like, fear factor, and like the swan, and all of these other

— We're all at that crazy show. — The crazy show, you know, and so it's unfair for us, I feel,

to really say it was just Tyra, and kind of attack just her. I just know, personally, for myself,

she changed my life, so I'm really grateful to her for that.

I think that's a really interesting perspective, and you're right. You see a lot of comments about

people being like, stop saying it was a different time, and I get why people are sensitive

that, because sometimes it feels like people are trying to make an excuse for how the show was made,

and things like that. But to your point, I think it's important to remember that even as fans and

viewers, like Nellie was saying, when we were watching it back, at the time when we were watching

it, at least when it first came out, no one was like, what's going on? We weren't questioning

out loud some of these very controversial things that we didn't have to hear the behind the scenes

to know that, like, maybe this is not okay, maybe this isn't okay. And we were all enjoying it

and laughing about it, and talking about it. So we were just culturally, we were all kind of

complicit in accepting the different times that we were in, and I think it's very easy for us

as fans to sit back and wag the finger and point the finger in critique.

Well, I mean, if the show was really all that bad, I don't think that there would have been

so many people going to sign up for the show. I don't know. That's kind of hard to say,

because some people will do anything no matter what they think they have to go through.

But at least for me, I watched the first few cycles. I was a big fan of the show before going

on it. And if anything, those previous episodes or seasons or cycles gave me a little entail as

to like, okay, when the makeover happens, don't lose your shit. It was like a key to like

staying on the show. But I was also like a fan of it beforehand. It was all the rage.

No, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, I've said this a few times. I was like your friend Suzy

on the bachelor a long time ago. But like, I've never heard the reality TV star come on

like an interview or whatever and say, you know that thing that I said that you all love or

that thing that I did that you all love? That actually wasn't my idea. That was a producer's idea.

They should get credit for how good I look in this moment. I've never heard that. I have heard

many reality TV stars say, oh, I was told to say that when the thing they say doesn't land or

it doesn't look good or blame their edit. And it's not to say that like a lot of people who go

on reality TV in general have, you know, are put in these kind of very complicated situations

that are just unnatural. And it's not to say that we can't critique it, but it can be refreshing

to hear you be able to strike that balance between yes, I have there's some situations that we

can talk about that, you know, weren't my, you know, that were difficult to deal with. This affected

me in a negative way. Like we can talk about that. But like yourself, I have a lot of moments from

my experience in the show that we're hard to get over that I deal with. But I'm sitting here

with you today. I wouldn't have any of this if it weren't for that franchise and to go on that

franchise and the opportunities they gave me for all the good. And there was plenty of bad. And

there was definitely some dark moments, whatever it was. But I can still be appreciative of where it

what it gave me. And it's refreshing to hear someone in your position to recognize that.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, to be completely honest with you, when I watched back the Netflix

doc, I felt as much as I want to say this in the same breath, I definitely feel for Shandy and

a couple of the other girls who were really traumatized from the show. But I went into this thinking,

this was going to be a like, let's talk about top model. And maybe where the girls are now. And

let's just like revisit this show. I really didn't think it was we're looking for accountability

from Tyra. We are going, you know, we are talking about, I've got to be fully transparent here.

I thought it was going to be maybe like 10, 12 girls to see that it was only like a very small

handful in the girls who've had like the worst experiences. It's kind of like, oh, I really did

not think, I mean, I was so, I truly have a balanced, like a true appreciation for Tyra. And so

much of this modeling industry, especially at the time when it came to our bodies, like it really

was in the middle of heroin chic era. And I was aware of that, you know, I think that the show could

have handled it with a little bit more care, considering the viewer, because there were so many

young women. And, you know, I think I may have mentioned this in the documentary, but like hundreds of

women have, you know, either messaged me or commented on a video from some, an interview or

something that I've done. And they say that they've gone into a, an eating, had an eating disorder

developed some kind of like a really poor, like self-image from that. So that I think

was damaging to more than just me, but everyone, you know, but at the same time, I'm not,

I'm not, I'm so appreciative. It's totally led to where I am now, which I love what I'm doing now.

So that's, yeah, that's kind of a fascinating thing. I mean, Nigel said, you know, when he was

interviewed, and we had a chance to speak with him too, and it's, you know, listening to you trying

to find the right words, and I know he did too, because like, it's such, especially now in 2026,

you know, we're in the, you know, accountability. And you know, you can't, everyone is,

from their side, they're the righteous person, and you know, it's easy to point to finger, but

to your point, there is a level of, we have all heard stories about the modeling industry,

and I mean, it is the modeling industry. So it is about appearances and how people look and their

bodies, and so it's even him trying to find the words of trying to explain, well,

I'm not making it okay, but like, like, this is the industry as a whole, and how do you

strike that balance to have a conversation that's productive around you? For sure, but you know

what I will say, and this is something that I think viewers don't understand, that at least with

America's next top model, they are trying to satisfy every person in America at that point.

If you line up all of the winners of the show, it covers every demographic that you could think of.

It's like, the first two winners were white, and then it was like, okay, black America's like,

where's our black girl? Then we got the third winner, who's black, and then fourth is,

it was my cycle, she's interracial, and then we go to like petite, then we get our red head,

and then we have our curve girl, so it's like, at the end of the day, the winners already

chosen, and it's a storyline, and there are things that they have to find while we're filming

to give a person a reason to go home, you know? There's like politics involved in like the show,

and so I've always understood that just behind the scenes, just understanding, they're just trying

to keep the show running, and keep everybody happy to keep watching.

How did you have that perspective at 19, like being on this show, like being able to separate

the two? Separate the two, meaning of like watching the previous cycles, and being like, okay,

this is, I get, they're making a TV show here, I'll say. You don't see a lot of that from

reality TV people, it's like a lot of it is, you know, they're the main character in their story,

and this is their moment, and especially nowadays, a lot of people go and just like, you know,

you see the success other people have, but you forget about all the people who, it didn't work out

for them, and they come in with these expectations, this is going to happen for me, this is going

to happen for me, and then when it doesn't happen for them, you know, it's easy to start pointing

fingers and things like that, but to Natalie's point, you had, you seem like even at such a young age,

a really healthy outlook on what this opportunity was and what it wasn't.

Oh, well, I appreciate you guys saying that, that's pretty cool. For one, I was obsessed with the

modeling industry before getting into it. I know a lot of the other girls who, or maybe not like,

who did not go into, a lot of the girls stopped completely after doing the show. I was like, no,

I have to move to New York now, I have to like pursue this for real now, and so I just had a different

respect for the modeling industry in general. I just view that as like my, my golden ticket in,

and plus I'm a very competitive person. So I was watching the show, I used to get just chills and

goosebumps when I used to come on. I just felt like I need to get on this show. I can do this.

So that's really where that came from, but like at the same time, not expecting to be like,

baby, I knew that it was TV, like I don't know, I just like a part of me like knew that understood it.

It was just really fun to be on it and not knowing what you're going to do for the day. You're with

all of these other women. It felt like a summer camp. It was so much fun. Were there moments during

filming where you like had to remind yourself or remind the other women like, this is a TV show.

Don't take it too serious. It's going to be okay. No, because to be honest, when, when girls get

all freaked out, like there is a degree, I guess this is maybe just my competitive nature, but like,

there's a degree where you're like, well, like you do your thing. And you know, hey, that's you.

And then also when girls go home, I think this was actually something that contributed to

Tyra's outburst was that one of the producers or editors told us that for our season,

they selected very friendly girls who was going to have would have a different like overall narrative.

And so many of the girls would feel so bad when other girls would get eliminated.

And I would see this and it would be like, that just made you one step closer to winning.

Like, I don't understand why you guys are sad about this, but I don't know. I just think I have

a very competitive nature. I get what you're saying. I mean, again, not to, but like, most reality

TV shows have some kind of elimination and not, yeah, it's kind of like, see, you know, like,

sorry. Yeah. You know, because it's, it's, it is nerve wracking. It is very much so because you feel like,

you know, at that time, I did not realize that it was not going to be the most helpful thing for

my career. Once I moved to New York, because reality TV was not like revered how it is now,

agencies reviewing us as reality stars. So I moved to New York. I lost a bunch of weight,

because I was like, well, you guys are not about that. I was like, I now got to be ready for

the real modeling industry. Yeah. It's just they, so this is how it is when the modeling industry.

Okay. In order to get signed to a modeling agency, you either need to be a completely fresh face

or you need to be experienced and have traveled and have been published in magazines and your

portfolio was built out. We were neither. We were household names. So we weren't this fresh face.

And we had zero real experience. I couldn't use my actual portfolio from top model because the

images were like crazy. Oh, then on alligator, you know, crazy heavy makeup. It was just not

indicative of the real modeling industry at all. There were a couple of things where you could

see where maybe tire was like, oh, the modeling industry is like this. You know, but it was such a

shocker to get to to New York and see that, yeah, this is not. And to use the photos from the show

in your portfolio, was it the photos that they chose? Because obviously that's been like they've

decided sometimes they choose like not the best photos that they could have something to talk

about. And then it's like, were you forced to use that photo at like was that the only one they

gave you access to? Those were the only photos we ever saw period from the whole thing. I'm even

surprised. One of the crew sent me my portfolio. He was like, hey, look, like I'm going to send this

to you. I think you did a really great job. And he sent me prints, which I still have. But every

girl did not, they didn't say like, here are your images guys. They just like left us out in the

way with it. Yeah, figure it out. But even still, yeah, those were the only images. And yeah,

absolutely. Those were not the best image because we have so many of us after after elimination,

we would be like, is that was that really my best shot? And I think, you know, it was discussing

the documentary a little bit. But yeah, it's that's part of the TV, you know, was there any moment

watching the documentary back where, you know, especially hearing your perspective, you had this

with this seem very aware healthy kind of understanding of what you signed up for to a certain

degree, I imagine. But was there anything you watch back listening to Tyra or listening to Ken

or any of the judges where you were like, that's how you guys did it? Or were you did nothing

kind of surprise you? What was kind of surprising was how much Tyra said she was not involved in

things. And also Jay making seem like he wasn't involved in things. He was a creative director for

our shoot. So for example, when we had to we were in Africa and we had the different animals.

And I got the elephant. I'm pretty sure Jay had some level of creativity in that, like, you know

what I mean. And so yeah, just seeing like, I guess I wasn't looking for accountability though

when I was watching it back. I really truly wasn't. But just seeing that thing that being shuffled

around and tossed around to other people was interesting. But nothing really, nothing really

surprised me much. Tyra's kind of response to you. Oh, well, you know, yeah, I will say that

I was surprised that she apologized and I'm appreciative that she apologized. Did it feel genuine?

Um, I'm just I'm appreciative that the word just that the word out, you know, I the thing about

it is that we were we were so young, especially for me to be like a fully grown woman now. We were so

young and I would be so careful about saying damaging things if you're coming on as like a mentor

guide to people. And so now I'm a post coach and a mentor to so many models I've been doing this

for 11 years now. And I have to be very realistic with them because a lot of people want to

go do Victoria's Secret and be in vogue and do all of this high fashion editorial stuff. But

there are such strict requirements for that. And I have to be very careful with breaking the

reality to somebody that maybe that's not the market for you, you know, because when we try to

get into the modeling industry, we can't make the industry conceit to what like you can't come in and

say, I'm going to be the first five four model to walk for Gucci. You can't you can't claim that

yourself like you have to be chosen in their standards and requirements. And I have to be careful

and and that's my part of my responsibility as like a mentor and a guide to these young models.

And then show them, hey, you can actually make a lot more money over here. But there's a way to do

it, you know what I mean. But I think that because of the time period of the show, it just wasn't even

on their minds. Yeah. Who's watching how we're affected. It just wasn't even because I do feel like

they used the like this is what the real modeling industry is like. So we're going to treat you the

same way as like they're, you know, it's like Tyro would kind of always fall back and be like,

this is what it's like in the real world. This is what it's like. I'm giving you. Yeah. Right,

which is honestly that part really did prepare me, which is why I went and lost I wait before

even going to New York. But I want people to understand like I'm five foot 11. And at the time,

I was about 130 pounds, which is really, really slim, like very, very slim. I was maybe between,

I was probably like a size four between a two and a four. And so which I'm not too far from now.

And it's like, I don't know, they did kind of prep us. But again, it all comes back to the show

and TV. So what was your relationship like with your body before you went on America's next

up model? That's really interesting actually. So I grew up here in LA and honestly, I was made fun

of pretty badly for not being curvy and thick and for being really slim. I didn't really have,

I mean, I had glasses braces like most models kind of start off kind of awkward. And I

was always made fun of for being too skinny. So by the time I went on to the show, I was like,

well, this is where I belong. This is perfect. And then to now all of a sudden like, you know, hey,

you are, you are not, you are not skinny is like, okay. So it was a shock and it was, it was

confusing. But yeah, it was just something that you, do you feel like their commentary about

your body or your appearance was they just decided that you were going to play that role? Or was it

at least from the modeling perspective? Did you eventually take it as like harsh but constructive

feedback? Or was it just like, no, I got typecasted as as this body type for purposes of TV?

I think it was maybe a little bit of both, but I was definitely, I was, I was so, so skinny.

I mean, if I have 11130. I was really, really, really skinny. And I think I think it did have to,

like, someone had, I went into the show thinking I was going to be the first black winner. And when

I went in it, when, when we were, while we were filming, the third season that had already had

its first black winner had one. She had one and we had no idea because it was airing while we

were filming. So I, the whole time was thinking, I'm going to be the first black winner. I'm going

to be the first black winner. And so to like, in hindsight now, it's like, I don't know if they

would have had like another black winner right in the row once you look at their lineup of winners.

So I do a part of me feels like, oh yeah, well, they just had to find something and stretch

that thing out, yeah, in a major way. And you know, there's another documentary that is coming out

on E and that one has Janice on it, which will be really interesting to hear Janice's point of

you. But I know Janice was brutal, but you know, believe it or not, when we had the, when they

talked to me about the weight, Janice was the only one who came up to me after the set and

or after, you know, actual filming and gave me like, advice and pointers and was very real. Like,

I think that she had a persona to be, I guess, the Simon Cowell of, of top model, but she was actually

very, she was more human when the cameras were off for sure, for sure. She's like, hey, you know,

sorry, you know, but like, you're some real good, yeah, absolutely. That's interesting. How did,

I mean, I'm curious, how did you, you talked about like, this was a dream, you were a fan,

how did you end up on America's next top model? What was the process for you? Oh my gosh, I actually

auditioned twice. I was in my freshman year of college and I sent in a videotape for the first

time in actual totally aging myself. But there was a, like a VHS thing, like recorder that I had

to rent from my campus to, to film my runway walk in my dorm and send in some pictures of myself

and didn't hear anything back. That was for cycle three. And then for cycle four, I was watching

Ricky Lake. Are you guys all the mess you remember, Ricky Lake? I'm 45. No. Okay. Hey. I got you.

Yeah. I was watching the commercials and Tyra was like, if you think you've got what it takes,

you know, in LA, you can come in person and audition for America's next top model. And that's the one

I went to and made it all the way through. Do you remember your first time meeting Tyra?

Yeah, for sure. I thought I was going to pass out and die. I was so excited to see her. I was

so young. I hadn't really ever seen anyone who had really been on TV or somebody that I really

admired. And they like to surprise us with Tyra. They like to just let it be a curve ball. And so

every time it was just really shocking, but it was, it was nice. Was she at that audition in person?

No. No, she's the producers or casting directors. Yeah. Watching the documentary back, you said

you watched it with your support system. You had your mom there. What was that like to kind of

sit by your mom and have her watch this with you? Oh, it was amazing having her watch it with me

because she's she's just always been like my biggest like supporter and has always believed in me.

Even for me moving to New York at 19, just bright-eyed and bushy tailed and broke and like not knowing

how I was going to make it at all. She's just always been there for me. She's just amazing. So

it was really nice. It was nice. Was it when she when the show aired and she watched it,

was there a little bit of like mama bear energy where she was kind of like wait a minute or

was she also kind of just I guess this is what TV is. I don't know. Well, we we watched America's

next hot model and we had watch parties every week because this is when this before streaming.

All these conversations I have now just aged the hell out of me. It's crazy. So we had to actually

wait for the you know stuff to come out and I would just have a bunch of friends over and we'd

watch it collectively and it was awesome and she already knew when I came home because she asked

me when I came home from filming like did you win what happened and I you know I of course

told her I didn't win and so it wasn't like it was a surprise and they felt for me but they also

kind of like understood like yeah but we also saw a live for the first time how much editing does

you know even in the clip of me posing as as the elephant that's what's really interesting about

now that we're in 2026 we all edit and we know what technology and AI and all this stuff looks like

and so even when you watch the show back now if you were to watch it you can tell where they're

cutting and splicing sentences you can tell when you visually look at it it's like my stomach didn't

really do that they did something and made it like they edited that it's just so bizarre to see

like now yeah you're right back then we just had no idea we took it all for granted we just took

it all you know there's like a voiceover you know exactly they're making TV they're interviewing

you exactly you're just talking and then they will you know show a scene they hear you hear a voice

you know I'm speaking but yeah those two like have no actual correlation yet at all reality but

they use it together and it's so easy to I mean to hear that and to change context in the meaning

and things like that you're right now everyone's a bit of an editor yeah everyone understands like

everything's like that so yeah you're a little bit more hyper aware even after filming and

after living the experience of doing America's next top model and then watching how they edited it

I could not watch the other seasons so I really don't know many of the other girls from other

cycles after mine because I can tell just from a girl you can just just by the music that they're

choosing if they have a girl come on and all of a sudden the music is okay she's going home

she's going home this week or that's a voiceover that was done after I could just tell all of that

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putting it like on a loop and you're like that was the same bag it was it was a bagel a bagel yes

yeah and that was I mean it was it was crazy yeah if you show me eating it's so funny even having

this conversation now but if you show me eating the middle of a bagel and then the end of the bagel

and then after that you show me eating the beginning of the bagel and I'm in the same car it looks like

man she brought three bagels out the house and whoo she was hungry you know it's that I remember

watching that back and that like pissing me off so badly so badly that that led to you know I

definitely had issues with like eating in public after that like in New York I didn't want anybody

to think you know she's eating lunch she yeah she is another human being over there she's really

enjoying that bag yeah yeah yeah she's chewing and swallowing stuff guys so but also like the industry

was just horrible you know there was a couple I had some connections with people was to have

interviews with some of the modeling agencies and even after me losing a bunch of like water

to just be as stick thin as I possibly could the agencies one of the agencies which I won't name

but I will I'll never refer my models there now because of that but I remember that one of the

agents was just like yeah so if we can get you to just come down like a little bit more

so I probably was maybe 120 125 at that point and she was like so maybe we can just eat like

Caesar salad no croutons dressing on the side breakfast lunch and dinner and then come back to us

in a month those were her literal that was her advice sir she told you salad for a month salad

but yeah but yeah she basically told me yes like have like chicken but like dressing on the side

like maybe put his dressing on the side me if you can't eat not putting it on like not getting

all of that's full serving of dressing you know you get two dips yeah two dips max but at the same

time I mean on top of that I was doing I was doing there's this drink but it's something that

gives you like really good energy to like burn calories and I would be on the treadmill just cardio

cardio cardio and it just gets to a point where it's just not good for you you know I mean well

after you know you you go on the show you're this very thin 19 year old very tall person you go

on the show you get casted as the elephant gluttony yeah gluttony you're seeing like you're eating

all the bagels I'm like zooming in on your stomach oh god I remember and then you go into the

modeling agency and realize that yeah they're not fuck around at what point did you kind of have

like an epiphany just be like what what am I this is I'm not this is not how I should be and

this isn't healthy and this is not I don't I don't want to keep doing this it took years honestly

because I was living in New York and I just I started working I started working I went to Paris

and did Paris Fashion Week Milan London Fashion Week LA Fashion Week Miami swim week like when

you start booking the work it's like okay well I just need to keep this going but then I also

realized I can make money in other areas like doing commercial print where it's not that big of a

deal and so you know all of the things that I've learned on that journey of like really being in

New York and like really feet hit in the pavement trying to get signed I now understand

everything if they want to see you know so that's again like led so much to how I'm helping

aspiring models now I'm curious you kind of alluded to it you know when we started having this

conversation and I was it was refreshing to hear you say that but before we had a chance to

dial with you I was talking to the team and and yes it definitely seems like Tyra wasn't perfect

and certainly I'm sure a lot of fans wanted some accountability and we had the pleasure of

speaking with Nigel and Jay it seemed like a lot of their press that they have done with for this

documentary was centered around Tyra and and they certainly seemed like they had their stories

and their frustrations you know some of them didn't hear from Tyra you know when when Jay was

fired and there's a story there but do you feel like in any way Tyra has been a little scapegoated

by some of the other people involved in making this show in a way that like they could have maybe

done more in some of these instances that the models have spoken up about about some of these

unfortunate moments that we all could have done better so to speak and do you feel like was it

did you want to hear more from some of the judges or some like or can that's a good question

I definitely feel like first of all I love Nigel Nigel has been like I've seen him we've run

into each other he's been he's been pretty awesome towards me about everything Miss Jay who I feel

so I'm so happy to see that he's doing better now but even after I got eliminated when we were in

Africa Miss Jay walked straight up to me and and and said how much he wanted me to win and that

meant so much to me because I was invisible at that point to Tyra she had like walked right

right past me after one of the the fashion shows this is why we were still on the show like we were

still filming because the last two so the top five girls made it to South Africa and

for continuity purposes or to keep the winner to keep it I guess a secret to the people in Africa

they had us all walk in the finale fashion show so that no one would know who's been eliminated

and after that final show Tyra walked right past me as if I just didn't exist and right after

she walked past Jay walked up and said that you know he was he was rooting for me and

and that meant so much and that stuck with me for so long and then in the same breath

after the situation of I mean it's a little heavy to say sexual assault but the situation with

Bertini the dancer model guy that situation happened and Mr. Jay like rolled his eyes at the time

and I think I've seen him mention in a few interviews that he wishes that he wishes that he

would have had a stronger backbone to be able to stand up to Tyra but you know at that time on

set Tyra wasn't there and his reaction was so dismissive of the entire thing that I know

personally for me watching all of these things play out and everyone's making Tyra the villain

is like well Jay you at that photo shoot Tyra wasn't there it was it was you and so it it

does suck you are expecting someone to stand up to him well well I mean I was the one who stood up

for myself but I mean in that time he was the one authority there to either acknowledge what I

was saying or not by the time it made it to Tyra the photo shoots already done right so it's like

well what made it to Tyra and how did you feel about what I was saying about this male model you know

so it's just very interesting but yeah that's an interesting yeah remark given that she wasn't there

yeah Tyra Tyra wasn't there so let's just say like Tyra makes her her statement but at the same time

it's it's interesting because Tyra says that she didn't know but you have footage you guys are

all looking at this footage and editing the footage together so you you did know exactly what

happened because it was recorded but you know it's it's more so about just Jay was the one who was

there on set you know well because it almost if that is your that's how you remember it that's

how it how it was yeah then it almost would make sense not to defend Tyra but if they're all

editing it and they're in the editing bay and she's watching it I imagine one of the people she

went to for like well what what what did you think about it it was probably Jay and so she heard

exactly exactly exactly you remember his perspective to be dismissive initially the initial

response live in the flesh of hey I feel very uncomfortable um was was really dismissed it wasn't like

the hold on let me talk to producers let me see how I respond exactly exactly and so and I think

another part of it that I think was completely just if I'm being honest that was just like

dismiss there was that this male model was so inappropriately hitting on me saying he was going to come

and find me in America he wanted to date me so badly it was like it was like an immediate obsession

type like I've been hit on before but it was like heavy right and that by the time we got to the

set that's what made it seem like it would feel like it was so uncomfortable is because he hit on

me so heavily beforehand and it was on camera and he's mic'd up and there's someone listening to

his audio exactly people filming and like knowing that this is going on and this is happening yeah

I think that's where the frustration that's where it comes in it's like there were so many people who

right could have said something and that situation you were put in was that something that was

fairly common back then you know because now now in today's culture you know filmmaking you have

an intimacy coordinator so like now when you have models or actors in this kind of vulnerable

position they're making sure that it remains a very professional environment was that a problem

in that industry back then I don't think so we had a previous photo shoot before we went to Africa

like very very beginning of the season where we had to have a pillow fight with fight with these

firefighter men I don't know if you remember this and so I was like straddling this guy

there was no issue there because he was like professional I don't know if there was an intimacy

coordinator which sounds so nice but I don't know if they had I don't know if that was a norm

back then I don't know if that was a norm but I mean at the end of the day you know our voices

our voices need to be heard and respected I think and I mean again I struggle with finding

the right words because I understand I just like I have a level of understanding I don't want

this to all come back on to Tyra you know what I'm saying like there's a level of understanding

that I have but I think for sure like if a woman is saying that she's uncomfortable and the model

is like knowingly cross the professional boundary already somebody needs to pull them aside and

have a conversation with him or replace him or whatever are that dance photo shoot was supposed

to be them dancing that was not supposed to be a groping touching grind and bump and grind

and then to the point that you pointed on the documentary like if you chose the photo of him grabbing

me like yeah do you feel like I mean you were so strong in that moment to even speak up you know I

think a lot of women myself included would have been like just eat it just get through this don't do

it don't say anything don't interrupt it and you were so strong in that moment to be like wait a

second I'm not comfortable to then be immediately shot down to then have Tyra be like you need to

deal with this type of thing in a fun way did that not necessarily that situation or that

did you ever get put in that position again but like did that change your mentality going forward

in this modeling industry of like if I'm in that situation again I guess this is how I have to

handle it absolutely not it made me I still knew I think also just because of like just how my

mom raised me but let me paint the picture to you in one of the first episodes there was a

there was a challenge where we all had to we went into bankable productions or some office

space and we they made us all sign these contracts and the contracts were bogus okay like

completely bogus and so Tyra they made a whole challenge out of it or like a learning moment

out of it for us to know our rights stand up for ourselves read the paperwork and you know you

ought to like be on the your business woman and do all of that so I promise you the one thought that

did go through my head at that photo shoot was what would Tyra do in this moment Tyra would say hey

I'm uncomfortable yeah and this needs to stop or or whatever case maybe like in whatever way

that she she would be um appropriate and so it was just confusing for me for just that moment

but not at all did I think oh I can't speak up for myself if a man is making me feel uncomfortable

thank god moving forward yeah thank god thank god was Tiffany on your cycle she was so I can't believe

that was my cycle still to this day were you there when that whole situation went down yes yes

how do you remember it exactly hasn't played out on TV it was incredibly okay you got to

understand panel was the time that we all dreaded okay and panel was held like in the house we

it seems like panel was this place that you drive to and we get judged and whatnot but it was

like on the other side of the kitchen and so just the energy of like going into that room

and be at panel is just so heavy because you just you might be going home and it's quiet it's

dead quiet it's like how the fans you hear the music oh my god silence oh it's the worst it's the

worst and and that's where like the competition gets real it's like okay we've been having fun all

week and you know whatever but it gets super real here and so that energy was I still like to

this day I had never seen Tyra lose it I had never seen her raise her voice she had been coming in

as like Tyra you know she'd been coming in as like our mentor and like our savior so it never

it just I was this completely shocked and surprised but a part of me understood where she was coming

from only because I had a huge respect for the modeling industry at that point I wouldn't you know

I cried I boo who cried when I left I felt that like oh you know and so a person who's who may not

feel anything I think that Tyra just found it like like disrespectful in a sense like how do you

not care that you're getting booted from this did you see Tiffany's response she's

like commented on her or said something along the lines of like this was way worse yeah like you

bullied me about like me and my son throughout the whole thing you were never nice to me I think

that there may be some other words but again I this was over 20 years ago and so I really don't

remember word for word but at the watching it back the energy we felt you felt oh for sure

I was petrified and what was the energy like after that oh my gosh it was the worst it was so

quiet it was so awkward in the house we all felt like this is not a joke yeah this is not a game

anymore she's not doing a scene yeah yeah this is not and you know it's hilarious is that we knew

that it wasn't scripted because underneath the panel like an underneath the kitchen in the house

was like an editing room and the editors like all night kept replaying it over and over and over

and I guess they were all in shock too yeah we got so y'all can hear them editing the show yeah just

that but we had never heard them edit anything else or replay anything ever it was yeah we could

hear full blast them playing it over and over and over they were celebrating probably yeah that's

crazy it did Tara address you guys as a group afterwards or did it from or did she just kind of act

yes did she know she addressed us as a group after Rebecca passed out there was another girl who

passed out because she had this condition that like I guess we caused her to just lock up and

and black out and she walked up and asked and told us about how scary that was but I don't believe

she spoke to us after that she just let that marinate and like riffle through our DNA yeah wow

what is one of your fondest memories looking back on your cycle being able to go to South Africa

honestly um you know I've always at that point I had always envisioned myself going to Africa

but thought maybe I can go much later after I've made a lot of money and I'm able to travel

internationally I haven't traveled internationally I don't think I but until that point and so

it was um that was a highlight for sure being able to go on there winning challenges was really fun

but the overall experience was amazing it was so much fun yeah watching the documentary a big

part of the narrative was and you referenced it before is how this show didn't fulfill its promise

on on setting up these models for success outside of the show into the modeling industry and through my

experience um in reality TV I've always said that being on reality TV gave me incredible access

in zero credibility um and that has been really helpful for me to remember when I get in certain

rooms and and people are just kind of like you know like we're asking you all these questions what

was it like you know giving me some like tea the behind the scenes you know they're just fans of

the show and I just want to hear that stuff but it did get me in rooms and so when I was watching

that part of the show back I was kind of like you kind of was just like you know I see what you're

saying and that's definitely it's a it's I feel bad for anyone who came in with a dream and left

feeling disappointed but hearing how you left that show and how you approached the experience

and you had a similar experience which is to quickly realize that yeah I mean this has opened up

a lot of doors for me but this has made this part of the gig that much harder I have to prove myself

I have to get this credibility that I clearly don't have with these agencies I it's a really

respect how you went about that and clearly like and I think it's I speak to like why you've been

able to have the success that you have I mean did you realize that in the moment that you were

kind of taking that kind of objective approach rather than and again every model's experience is

different and obviously some that's some very difficult experiences but I imagine a lot of them

who you know went on the show and didn't have to deal with maybe some of these more traumatic

experiences some of the models did and it didn't work out kind of will blame the show as to why

their modeling career didn't work out as opposed to you kind of took your career by the horn so to

speak and and took charge and and and where and you were it sounds like you look back you were still

able to use America's next top model as a reason for your success even though in some areas it hurt

you a little bit but you were able to overcome that yeah absolutely that's a really good connection

and because it was it we're talking about the modeling industry here I seeing that you know there

were some hurdles and it wasn't as much credibility with the actual modeling it agencies it's still

because of my drive and like I'm not going to quit I've been through so much I've moved to the

other side of the country I have to keep going and there were so many other models at the time that

whether it's top model was a part of the equation or not like if they're just like regular models

coming in right they also had a degree of like well I got to keep going that that is absolutely true

I got nose just like all all the other models but my nose had something to do with like type

the top model but I had to still just like keep pushing and keep going and learning okay well where

can I where where do I fit where do I belong um because yeah I mean it was a true

passion for me it was not to be a reality star I didn't even believe I remember the moment that

kin like when we got accepted onto the show and we were in some room and kin turned around and

was like you guys know you're gonna be famous right we were all like yeah right we didn't realize

how big the show was at all um but I didn't go on to the show for that reason it was

truly because I wanted to compete and be you know the winner of of this show and I respected it

yeah well I mean so just such a mind-fuck these these experiences people have because

you know I think when we're kids and on some level whether it's modeling or not there's there's

always a fantasy of like becoming a celebrity or some kind of public figure right and then you

and maybe you have a talent or not right and then when you get brought on these shows you have to

get this kind of this weird acceptance of like why people know who you are type of saying

and I imagine for a lot of the the models who left America's next-time model

they were very much banking on America's next-time model being the reason that they would have

success for sure and then when they didn't have it I'm I imagine that being very defeating

you know to be like oh well fuck you guys told me this would work yeah and you were like oh okay

well fine this won't help me yeah but it does help me you know like I said imagine I got you

indoors and got you in conversations and I'm sure a lot of people are fascinated with meeting you

and and talking to your stories and then when you're in those conversations you got to be like

I'm going to show you the real me absolutely I mean it opened up so many doors I've met so

many and plus like moving to New York in general was like people are hustlers and go getters

and I just was thrown into a world where you don't give up and I believed in myself to the degree of

like okay I'm not I can't turn back now I cannot turn back now um but you know developed amazing

relationships and connections with people but the biggest thing that I'm grateful for is that I

was able to through to through the rejection was able to learn the do's and don'ts of this whole

thing like how to build your portfolio working with really good photographers especially for models

of color there's only like three hairstyles that we can even really wear that are considered

marketable in the modeling industry and a lot of people you know even black women don't even realize

this sometimes when we're looking at advertising and so there's so many things that I've learned

about the modeling industry that now I get to put in a pretty little package for aspiring models

and like show them the way like that is the most fulfilling thing about this whole thing you know

yeah and so yeah as a mentor I'm curious because again like a lot of the industry and the show

a lot of any building excuses is like well you know it's the money industry and like you know

we judge people by their look and their bodies or whatever but you've been able to find a way

to work with these young models and mentor them and show that you can deliver this direct feedback

and and steer them in the direct direction and you and you don't have to be cruel or mean about it

and and maybe like I also imagine a lot of models who became talent agents and

run agencies yeah yeah it's like I imagine every bully was bully type of thing right and it's

almost like you're kind of taking it out of the next generation and and justifying is like well I

had to go through this you know and now you do too but you've been able to do it in a much more

I would think it's in a healthier way yeah I don't know if you're gonna I don't know if you

were gonna use those words but I think it's in a healthier way that's less damaging and even

when I do that in a healthier way for some girls I can tell this is a really tough pill for you

to swallow right now and it's not just like weight and size sometimes it's height like height

is a big thing and that one is really tough because you can't do anything about your height

and so it's it's like tough I know exactly how these girls feel but definitely now that there's

body positivity and way more inclusivity and so many more modeling markets when areas for people

to make money in the modeling industry it might not be the runway maybe it's for macy's maybe it's

for you know something that's just like more commercial and so at the end of the day for me I try

to show them that there's a light at the end of the tunnel so my company is called Find Your Light

I help them find it within and on set I've known to have mastered the art of posing so now I show

you know these models and some celebrities as well like how to pose and how to kill it in front

of the camera really excited it's it's been it's been amazing it's been amazing to be able to still

stay in the craft of it all because I I was just really passionate about it didn't want to give

up on it and to give back in such a positive way to like stay in the industry but like for sure

well I mean it's better it's better to for a model to know hey I've given it my best shot I've

I have a really great portfolio because I have a full service where I can build their portfolio

shoot their digitals teach them how to pose build their book whatever like it's a one-stop shop

but it's much better for them to say okay I've tried it I've done I've submitted to agencies I

had really good materials and it and it doesn't work that way as opposed to people having no

idea where to start and then it just stays this kind of delusional fantasy of a career that you

want to get into that you can't really say you've even tried it's also so helpful because when

I was going through I mean I remember them being like you need to build your book and I'd be like

what the fuck goes in a book like what what do you want to see in there I don't know I have to

schedule my own photoshoots but like what are you what am I supposed to be doing in the right

issues how different what's the range you want to see like the fact that you offer all of that is

just I'm sure so helpful for all of these people going in being like there is so much unknown yeah

yeah and where you you were assigned to an agency I'm assuming I was yeah it took a while and it

took a lot of time I was definitely called fat a lot then I was really and I was very skinny and

very small even when you're with an agency that is not the end of the road now you still need to

add more stuff to your portfolio you need to just like stay active and your agents won't come on and

tell you do this outfit do these kind of moods and expressions they do not jump in there with you

to like make it happen on another casting until you get more in your book yeah it's like oh how do

I do that yeah for sure so that's that's why it's it's really fulfilling for me because imagine

I mean wanting to model I think is just as valid as somebody wanting to be a doctor or whatever

the case may be it's a passion it's a passion of yours is something that you really want to do

but there's no one who shows you how so I'm really happy to show you now do you do you think your

approach is becoming more common or do you feel like inside the bigger talent agencies even today

there's still some of this very toxic way of communicating about these models I think it's

absolutely still very toxic I think that my business is probably the plushiest cushioniest

cushioniest I'm making words up at this point but it's like the softest place where you can come and

learn those things with like nurturing care and love you know there's nowhere these agencies

they don't give you any information or feedback first of all but once you get signed to an agency

there's a ton of other girls who are already working like they can't make money from you

they're not coming over to you coddling you saying hey baby you need some more pictures in your

book you're not doing that at all I mean just kind of silently get shelves so that's what's

kind of toxic about the industry is that there's really no nurturing there's no union for models there's

at least a union for actors but there is no union for for models that's true yeah there is no

nothing to make sure that we don't get touched on said or whatever's happening making sure we get paid

from our agencies this is wild that was there still there's so many actually there's tons of

companies that run alongside the modeling industry that are not real that scam people and

charge them thousands and thousands of dollars promise them I'm sure you're familiar with some of

these things that we have heard about it right and there's really no protection for for these people

yeah they still notoriously bad at paying their models now it just depends on the agency you know

if you're with the legitimate agency they're good with their with the paying but you don't get paid

you don't get paid in a couple in a week or two like you get paid you know I think L.A.

just changed it to like net 30 but I think in other areas you still have to wait like 60 to 90 days

but that's just like the industry what is your favorite part about helping these young models

seeing their confidence boost yeah and seeing someone have clarity clarity is one of the

the one of the best feelings that you can have related to a lot of areas of our life right clarity

on where you're going clarity on plan B if this doesn't work clarity on is this something that I

can do yeah clarity on okay this looks this pose looks good this looks bad that clarity is gives you

a sense of relief you know so that's that feels nice because I knew for so long like literally no

one helped me Tyra nobody from the show other models that I knew in New York they also couldn't

help me especially if they weren't black because they have a completely different experience like

they can't come and tell me hey like you shouldn't be wearing a weave you know that was you know that

was that was tough so like I know how it how it feels to feel like I have no idea what I'm doing

what I'm putting in my book I'm just going to do a bunch of free photo shoots that actually

don't look good I but this is like the only thing that I know that I can do so providing that

that confidence boost for them to have like a thick skin and clarity those are those beautiful

turning say parents listening to this episode who have daughters you know 17 18 years old who are

like I want to be a model I want to this is my dream what advice would you give to them or what

are some things they need to be mindful of if they want to support their with son or daughter in

this industry I would for sure that's such a good question I would absolutely say make sure that

this is something that your son or daughter really genuinely wants to do but also like make sure

that they are not using the modeling industry to validate them because we have to so much of it

is out of our control and we have to deal with rejection and not hearing back from anybody

and just because you don't get a modeling job like that doesn't mean that you're you weren't pretty

enough for skinny enough or whatever the case may be it doesn't mean that all the time but that's

how it feels when you don't get the job or you don't get signed and as long as your kids know

they're worth beforehand that's like that's gold just knowing your worth also making sure that they

have a a sense of identity and personality that have like nothing to do with modeling you know like

because it can really affect a person's ego as well like I've worked with models as well whose

egos were just like through the roof and it's like I have to remind them which is why their

business side of it was like lacking it's like you it's not just looks you know it's

relatability and being memorable and like being confident being yourself are you able to be

authentic in a space are you able to just show up and just like talk to casting directors and not

like put these people on a pedestals just to like secure some job or or do other like odd things

that people do to to like elevator grow in the industry you know I'm sure there's probably a

couple of other things as well but it's just like make sure they know who they are make sure

they your kids know who they are before getting into this but I would also for sure say figure

out as soon as you can if this is 100% something that they want to do figure it out either yes or

no because if if you're kind of wanting to do it but you realize that maybe you're super sensitive

or it's really surface reasons why you want to model you're not going to make it through

the hurdles and the rejection and the maybe you're in a bad city you know maybe you're in a city

where it's not going to really become much you know in order for you to move and do all these things

you gotta think it's like oh New York isn't your market but Miami's your mark right yeah like

look at the different yeah there's so much to it and if you don't want it that bad you're not

going to move there if you move there you're not going to like keep it keep it going right so

well that I mean just the validation part I think is so great is because I imagine I imagine so

many people whether it's models it's anything an entertainment a lot of people do it for that

validation only to find out the last thing they get is validation and they get it's I mean I'll

never forget my first time going on TV and I thought I was like you know all right looking guy

from Wisconsin and people are on there it's just like my I'm the ugliest person in the world like

you know what my mouth is fucked up you know when people are just like picking you apart and it's

like validation yeah it's the last thing you'll receive but if you really have a passion for

and you're willing to do the work and you and you enjoy the process of of getting to wherever you

want to go yeah for sure enjoying the journey and not I'm not making that the end all be all

people don't realize that modeling is not really unless you really make it to like the top top

this is not going to be your main career even in high fashion and stuff it's there's no

longevity in it it's only for a few years really at the end of the documentary tire a teased

that there might be another season is there a world let's say they knock you picked up you got

a call and they're like can you we'd love you to be a judge or just have any type of role whatever

it would be would would that be something you would be I would come on as a judge yeah I would

come on as a judge I think that at this point considering that Tyra and everyone has heard

everyone's opinions and in all of these things that I think they would be a lot more careful

moving into a 25th cycle so as long as it's not any fuckery going on I wouldn't I wouldn't mind

coming on do you think that it'll actually happen or do you think that was Tyra trying to manifest

something I don't know it could have been a tester it could have been to put feelers out to see

like what people would say but I think at the end of the day no matter how dark some of these things

are traumas that we went through I think that there's always going to be people who would sign up

for sure oh yeah like so it doesn't even matter you know like it's I think that'd be pretty

bold to come on and say that at the end of a documentary where everyone is is wanting to hear

your opinion and then it not really be happy I don't I you know it's just hearing your perspective

is interesting like you know I'm gonna you know you got asked to be a protest documentary not knowing

what it would be you asked answered some questions I'm really curious what her expectations were

and what she thought it would look like well yeah I mean I you guys have to understand when you go

into do a documentary you have no idea what their storytelling or their narrative is going to be

and so yeah because a lot of people were like I'm surprised she did yeah you know um and so it's

I think said I don't I mean if she had I think it would have been worse if she hadn't done it yeah well

what how different were do you are part of the Netflix one and the one that's coming out on E how

different were your two experiences it's the same same it's I'm always truthful like you know in

these things like I'm telling my story if anything that one might be a little bit more real of

I don't I really don't know I still have no clue yeah because I don't know

on that but though these were these were real experiences I definitely have a little bit more

emotion on some of the things because because it was my first time really watching some of those

clips back so I was definitely like it may be a little bit more emotional I don't know gonna see

gonna watch it back with everybody yeah and it is the emotion more nostalgia or a mix of

happy and sad times I'm just feeling so bad for my my younger self you know who just wanted that

so bad you know and like you know all of our younger selves I think we have like a soft spot

for our younger selves if you could tell Kenya 19 years old going into cycle four the

Americans desktop model anything for you are today what would you tell her I don't know if

I've ever been asked that specifically like if like what I would tell my younger self going

into the show for the first time kill it yeah you're gonna go really far all of this is going to

make sense it's all going to make sense no matter what you go through it's it's all going to

make complete sense later on for sure I'm just I'm a I'm a really big believer my grandmother told

my my mother this and she's passed it along to me that you know every single thing that you go

through in your life is literally to prepare you for the next thing so you know it's like I mean

I'm a big believer in that you know it's all led to where I am now it's crazy that I've been doing

this for 11 years now of of coaching and mentoring girls I've got about six models right now that

have beauty campaigns in Sephora which is awesome I've I discovered a model in at my gym in Miami who

has gone on to get signed to nine modeling agencies he's done New York Fashion Week he's done

all the fashion weeks he got signed in Paris as well he's killing it like I just I'm I'm really

proud to have been like a part of these models journeys how do people find your program my my website

find your light today dot com and then also my Instagram where you'll see success stories and

might be posing it down and you know I do these big retreat workshops so I like to curate um

photo shoot experiences for these models it's kind of like my own little baby top model I guess

but again because so many models don't know how to really build strong portfolios I will like

rent out these really amazing spaces and do these big photo shoots so I just did one at the

invisible house in Joshua Tree I'm not sure if you guys heard of the invisible house it's like all

the mirrors right like a glass house basically um so I had like a whole slumber party like situation

working with two amazing photographers stylists and showing them how to pose like people don't

realize america's next top model didn't really teach us teaches this kind of like let's get

all of these young people and ask them and and let's let's make them compete to see who makes it

out on top as opposed to we're going to show you the ropes like really show you the ropes and then

see who prevails from there so you know that's what that make that's what makes my whole situation

different that's great final question and I really appreciate you you being here and having

this conversation and I just appreciate your fairness on on this conversation what do you want

the takeaway as we now have watched it back there was the 2020 kind of recent re renaissance of

people rewatching this and feeling a certain different way now the documentary has been out what

do you want the legacy of america's next top model to be oh man this was a show that

gave a lot of us a taste of the modeling industry and gave us a glimpse of that um accomplishing

that dream and I honestly am still just eternally grateful for the experience and

and I had a blast with it I'm so glad that I was a part of it and I I want the legacy of it to

be positive I don't want it to be this negative dark thing you know I really feel for a lot of the

other girls and that you know we all had our different experiences but I think Tyra was a pioneer

in the sense that she really did allow a lot of other women who maybe would not have been a

scene or appreciate in the modeling industry to have a chance you know she really did give us a chance

so I think there were good intentions there so I want can I appreciate your time yeah thank you

for everything yeah even so vulnerable and open about obviously some of the tougher parts in

your life and as someone who was in the dark side of the modeling industry you having find your

light in this mentorship is it's so inspiring and it's just so beautiful to see and I can't

think of a better person to like lead the charge on this and so I know all of those models are in

such great hands and oh thank you I hope everyone listening I mean if you're listening you're

interested I will put the your website in the show yes sign up I do consultations we'll talk about

your goals see whatever it is um you know what your weaknesses are strengthen your weaknesses and

get you going yeah it's like you know you always hear these stories about the industry and just

it's the Wild West and you really are alone yeah just a lot of pitfalls about actors so it's

it's great to you know there's guidance there's guidance here let me lead the way for you

well thank you guys for listening and thank you again Kenyan we appreciate you thank you

for having me we'll see you guys tomorrow