EP127 – Loneliness is the tax you pay for autonomy

Hello, and welcome back to It's a Numbers Game.

Today's episode is going to be a little bit different from our usual format.

Normally we have a guest joining us to explore a particular topic, but today it's just

down to myself, having a conversation.

Most discussions in our industry focus on strategy, technology, or growth or sales or operations,

but there's another side to business ownership that's often overlooked or simply ignored.

Because talking about it means admitting struggles, vulnerability, and sometimes even weakness.

So okay, the truth is running a business can be incredibly rewarding, but it can also

be lonely.

And as owners we carry responsibilities for decisions, for people's livelihoods, for

financial risk, at often for the overall direction of the company, and that responsibility

can create a kind of isolation that isn't always obvious from the outside.

So today Dad and I wanted to have an open conversation about that reality.

What it feels like, how we experienced it, when we're running our own SPs, and some

of the ways owners can think about managing that pressure.

I'm going to kick things off by reading a short essay that hopefully catches the idea

that loneliness is the tax you pay for autonomy.

Hello Daniel, welcome to the podcast.

Great to be with you today, haven't you?

So look, this is going to be an interesting one, isn't it?

We're not really sure how this is going to work out, but we got into a conversation,

didn't we, a couple of weeks ago, about it being tough at the top, about loneliness,

about things that maybe we could have done differently in our MSPs.

And in particular, this is something down that you were thinking about around some content

from a video perspective.

So we're going to talk about that today, right?

And hopefully it resonates with some of our listeners who are currently toiling away

in their businesses.

So we thought maybe to begin with, I'm going to just read out a fact of your short essay,

which tries to encapsulate the components of what we're talking about here.

And then we can just dig into a little bit and hopefully bring some value to our audience.

So look, this essay is called Loneliness is the tax you pay for autonomy.

Autonomy is seductive.

It promises freedom of choice, control over direction, the ability to say yes and know

in your own terms.

For entrepreneurs especially, autonomy is often the primary motivator, not money, not

status, but the desire to decide, to build, to shape reality rather than to react to it.

But autonomy has a cost and that cost is often loneliness.

When you choose autonomy, you also choose responsibility, the two are inseparable.

The more control you have, the fewer people you can blame, the fewer people you can defer

to, the fewer people who truly sit alongside you in the weight of decision making.

In organizations, authority changes relational dynamics.

When you own the business, employ the team, sign the guarantees and carry the existential

risk you occupy a structurally different position.

People treat you differently, not because they dislike you, but because hierarchy alters

psychology, employees filter what they say, they manage impressions, they self-protect,

and so gradually there's social symmetry narrows.

You cannot fully offload your anxieties downward without destabilizing those who rely on you.

You cannot share the doubt without potentially eroding confidence.

Leadership requires containment of uncertainty, of fear, of complexity, and containment by

definition is often internal.

This is where loneliness emerges.

It is rarely the loneliness of physical isolation, which is a loneliness or unshared, cognitive

load, the loneliness of holding vision that others do not yet see.

The loneliness of rehearsing worst case scenarios at 3 a.m., whilst the rest of the company sleeps

piece of it.

For certain personalities, particularly conscientious, high-agency, totally driven individuals, this

effect is magnified, conscientiously, as we play decisions.

They anticipate consequences, they feel deep responsibility, or outcomes affecting

employers, mortgages, and thamaries.

They're overthinked, not because they're weak, but because they care, autonomy amplifies

that care.

There is also a paradox embedded within it, many founders pursue autonomy to escape constraint,

corporate hierarchies, political environments, bureaucratic limits, yet in escaping those structures

they remove shared accountability.

There is no one above them to absorb uncertainty, no one else to sign off the final call, the

freedom is real, so is the isolation.

This does not mean autonomy is a mistake, it means autonomy is adult, it removes protected

layers, it demands emotional regulation, asks you to build your own structures of support

rather than inheriting them.

The keen side is this, loneliness at the top is not a flaw in character, it is a byproduct

of responsibility.

The solution, therefore, is not to eliminate autonomy, but to distribute processing.

Big groups, mentors, partners, therapists, these are not signs of weakness, they have structural

counterbalances, and they allow cognitive and emotional load to get out without just stabilising

the system you lead.

There is also a reframing available, loneliness can be interpreted not as abandonment, but

as quiet.

Autonomy creates space, fewer voices, fewer constraints, fewer imposed narratives.

In that space, you confront your own thinking more directly, for some, that feels isolated

for others it becomes clarity.

Attach you pay a solitude with your own mind, like any tax, it funds something, in this

case it funds freedom, it funds ability to build according to your values, to take risks

others would not sanction, to shape culture strategy direction in alignment with your vision.

It is never free, it demands a resilience, emotional containment and self-awareness, it demands

you, that you accept, that not everyone will fully understand your internal world.

But for those who value self-direction, the trade remains worthwhile, loneliness then

is not the price of failure, it is the price of ownership.

And breathe, right, so that was a whole world salad there, and some interesting sort of

perspective, sort of, look down, kick things off, tell me about loneliness in your business

or what you made of it at the time, and how you reflect on it now.

I'm going to use one of my regular sayings, which is from a pretty well known film, but

you had me at Hello, and so much of what path at peace touched on, absolutely resonated

with me and I'm sure it will for lots of our listeners.

And I think back to my own experience and very much feel that one of my regrets from

my original business was that I at the time hadn't fully understood all of this, so I was

living in it, so I wasn't aware of what, of why I was lonely, and I wasn't able to properly

process the pressures that being a business owner bring, and again, lots of points you

highlighted there in particular, the fact that you care, if you don't care, then that

significantly reduces this pressure and that pleading of loneliness in a strange way,

the more suited you are to leadership, the less immediately prepared you will be, and

and reflecting back on some of the things that I've learned in the last 12 years since

my original exit. One of the things is of course EOS, the traction book, which is very popular

within the MSP world, and I think because a lot of MSP owners are naturally they are in

that category of they do care, they do take their responsibilities seriously, in a lot

of cases they are running small immature businesses and the people around them are generally

not of a people disposition, so they're perhaps less inclined to communicate and be more

open as then the owners are, so yeah, I think that further again amplifies that loneliness

aspect, I think it's a really interesting piece and maybe we'll get you to do Jack and

Ori a little bit more regularly.

So, the thing I was thinking of straight away was, and I think this is partly why we're

talking about it, is because no one really does talk about it, or if they do talk about

it, it's a fairly rare beast, right? No one says, yeah, actually, I know you get you

want the agency and the autonomy and you want your own business and you want control

than all these good things, but there is a cost to it, and the cost to it is worry,

see just nights, no one to talk to, your spouse has bored of you quite frankly now coming

home every night, just bleeding on, I'll cut, talk to her anymore about all this other

stuff, and then who else you talk to, and then you realize, I've talked to my, my, my,

my guys who work for me, you can't do that, because that's not the way it works, because

you're in control of their salary, you're in control of their life to that extent.

The relationship is asymmetric, that's that sort of less sense, so there's this sort

of realisation that it's a thing, and I think that's the starting point, isn't it?

It's normal, in fact, it shows you care, it's good, it's good in that sense, it means

you're running your business responsibly, as you've got this feeling possibly.

Agreed, but the specific mention of EOS and all of the thinking around that would be

that actually you don't have to be fully introverted, there isn't, in reality, this,

them and us, we're encouraged to share our vision, again, one of the points you raise there,

you're carrying the whole vision, actually, you don't have to, you can and you should

communicate that with your other team members, and you should be having regular communication

with them, and engaging them in a different type of relationship. Yes, it will always be different,

there will always be some level of inequality, ownership, engagement, infusionism or whatever

measure you might have, but it doesn't have to be this extreme of, you're the boss.

You're saying, absolutely, ultimately, of course, the buck always lies with you and there's

always going to be that asymmetry and therefore some level of loneliness, but you can

building some improved structures within the company to help lubricate that shared responsibility,

but shared vision, clarity of vision, shared alignment, values, behaviors, things like that,

which aren't going to fix everything, but they're going to,

what are they doing? Are they making it easier for everybody else to communicate at the level

you need them to communicate at? Because of the structure, it's making it easier to put things

into boxes so they happen in some way rather than just getting assumed.

If we're talking about the initial, the initial title of this, which is that there's a tax to pay,

I'm already thinking of what are the allowances that can offset allowance number one would be

to employ some of the, some of the principal's concepts at least of something like EOS,

if not 100%, and then some of the other allowances would be to perhaps find and communicate with

people in a similar position to use. Again, particularly in MSP lands, the peer group

is a very real, very prevalent thing. You, of course, are a result of the E-Nation Evolved

program, and had I known more about that at the time, I'd have definitely, it would have changed,

I believe, positively, my destiny had I been aware it was a thing and could have engaged.

Again, it may not have been, I may have been the wrong mindset to get the most out of it,

but not knowing about it was the thing that sticks in my mind, and it's now.

And not knowing, and not knowing again about the different networking groups or business groups

that are in your local communities as well, and not just seeing them purely as referral groups,

I think that's a mistake I made, probably for years, just seeing them as referral groups,

and why am I not getting more business, and why do I have to get up at 6.30 the morning,

and all this kind of stuff, and week in, week out, and making the mistake of making it very

transactual, rather than actually, it can be more supportive in nature, and holistic in nature,

and yeah, we are big supporters of peer groups, support groups in general.

I would just put one thought out there, though, around them, and that is the camp back five,

I'm careful. Again, in my experience, and it could just be the way I see it, but you can,

there's always egos knocking around, right? It's natural for people, so they can become very

competitive, and it can be my P&L's bigger than your P&L, so to what extent are they

willy-wagging competitions or support groups? So there's some interesting dynamics that play,

I think ultimately these things, it's, you know what, you've just got to find people,

you get on with, you build those strengths, debts of relationships, there'll be some kind of

structure within it, and then you've got to work within that structure to find the necessary

support you think you need. And it could be, of course, certainly in support.

Here's a question for you, Dan, you had a business partner. I didn't, how do you think that

changed things for you? I think in reality, we were probably both isolated in our own way.

I had a business partner that was equitable in terms of, we really call shares in the business,

so there was no media deciding votes, and so I think it, again, thinking back to

how well aware and prepared I was to run a business. I was exactly that first person,

I really wanted to, to be in control of my own destiny, and I wanted autonomy,

and yeah, I was, I didn't start the business, we've probably the right grounding,

and when you go through, you go through all of the trials and tribulations of starting and

growing a business, that does bear down on the relationship we have with a co-founder,

shareholder, and it does, yeah, it could have been far more productive having a business partner.

Similar sort of level as you first business together.

Both first business is correct, yeah, the blind leading the blind.

Blinding the blind, and there's always, you don't know what you don't know.

So, you don't stop and go, we don't know much, actually, so maybe we should probably

just agree on that and reflect on that for a start, or anything.

Yeah, because I often wondered whether it would be easier if I had a business partner,

and RR is a problem shared, a problem hard, or is there some other stress there?

This conversation has been recorded, Adam, but I feel we are both

having been through a business cycle, individually and separately, and now coming together,

I would say having a business partner is more productive because,

though I and you are better prepared and trained, and we are, I would say we're more effective

working together, and I would reflect back on some of the conversations I had with my

original business partner. They would be nowhere near as productive and open and progressive as

the conversations you and I have. Our business, like any business, has opportunities, frets,

there are good days, there are not so good days at hand, and yeah, I would say today,

I appreciate having a business partner, and I hope my business partner does too.

It could be awkward, couldn't it, then?

Yeah, definitely. Anyway, that was a really interesting one, isn't it, because again,

I should say when I was on my own, it was like, God, this is just hard, she's just hard, and I was

fortunate to have some good people in the business, and that helps, but it didn't, it really helped,

didn't fix it, because it's back to that complete autonomous piece, and ultimately, I was

paying everyone's salary. But I've seen it with business partners where Nester is the absolute

openness, trust, relationship, desire to work together, if there's misalignment or values,

those sorts of things, I don't know, I think that could become a bigger problem, you've now got,

you've got new problems, and again, if you don't, I guess it's like it, a marriage, right? It's

about marriage. You could be lonely with a partner, you're seeing every day that you don't like,

right? Because you can't share what you're thinking with them, so some people report that

that's lonely than being on your own. So maybe, maybe like all these things, it's complicated and

nuanced, and it depends who your business partners are, and how well you prepare to work at them,

like you are supposed to work in a marriage. It's not just get mad on doing everything's great,

it's not the way it works, is it? And did you leave me hanging there, or?

So, we've talked, we've read, we understand there's an issue, we understand the part, the

starting point of this is being aware, first of all, understanding that you could put some

enterprise, some operating business operating system frameworks in place, like U.S., there are

others that help to provide a structure around the value set, the goals, the meeting rhythms,

the level and type of communications, and that helps from a general perspective.

We also said we should need to immerse yourself in communities, whether it's pure MSP,

communities, local ones, or both, and obviously we're saying mentors, obviously we'd say that,

again, a regret of mine, I didn't openly know this was a thing necessarily, I'd come across

business coaches all the time, I saw them on the networking circuit, I found them average,

at best, generally not really ever having owned a business and being generic in their approach,

what was I supposed to say? Neds, I've come across neds, I didn't really understand the value,

they brought, maybe they were for bigger business than me, maybe they weren't right to me,

so I didn't have that kind of signposting piece to nowhere to turn on that one, and again,

sort of insular, insturant thinking, I did have some, I did pay for some external,

I'm not sure if it's coaching or counselling or both, but this was now less entrepreneurial based,

more human psychology based to see if there were things I could work on. But yeah, so I think,

certainly for me, again, just around what we do today, down around the mentoring piece,

there's a huge part for me that just do some of that validation piece, helping other people

that maybe were a bit like I was, that then didn't know what I didn't know, so that's, again,

something I put out there, but yeah, your thoughts on that? Yeah, 100%, and I was lucky, fortunate

in the last couple of years of my business to have what today we would call a mentor under

our service, it was, it was an individual who had run a business, had sold a business,

a larger business within the technology space, had lots of relevant and insightful opinion,

and in particular for my business partner and I provided that the third leg of the stall that

was required for stability and a more rounded decision making, and at the time I referred to him

as renter boss, and, comically, I of course then used that phrase again in my early mentoring days,

which, which, in truth, and quite by accident, I would never have imagined 12 years ago that I would

describe myself to people not from the industry as I'm a business coach for high tea services

company, but I'd never afford that's what I would describe my role as, but in going to

community events, in talking to people, in understanding that I could interpret the situation

they were in and make recommendations and help them make decisions, that was really

empowering for me and for those early victims in my mentor in career, and yet in truth,

I would now absolutely recommend having a mentor and seeking out he doesn't have to be of a

commercial nature, it could be an informal irregular, but having someone that you can talk to and

and it's beneficial sometimes, often both ways as well, a mentor, a mentor, a mentor, a mentor,

do gain from that relationship, so yeah, 100% agree a mentor is probably the third element that

in terms of in terms of annoyance that you can put against the loneliness tax of engaging more

with your own team, having some level of vulnerability, but still remaining that that confident leader

and it's a balance, engaging with the wider community and mentoring.

Yeah, and just I guess we need to wind things up, but two things I just wanted to pick up on

the vulnerability piece, that kind of blew me away towards the latter half of my MSP life where I

took on this concept of hang on a minute, what just be who you are, what kind of you're staff,

really? What if they don't like me? Yeah, and so that was difficult for me to take that on board,

I think I did get a bit better at it over time, but authenticity I think was important, try and

be who I could be, but with a leadership hat off, ultimately I thought you still had to do that

bit honestly, but not having all the answers, when somebody comes to you, it's okay to say actually

I don't know, I'm fed a conflict we can work it out, something like that, saying you've got

something wrong, but actually being okay with it, not berating yourself for it, you just got

something wrong, and just these normal human emotions, I think that helped, I think that helped

ultimately in my leadership style, I think it made me, I think it made it easier for me to have

more open questions with my team, and I think they performed better probably because of that,

actually. The other thing I was just going to reflect on, and it's often something with our

mentor class, we talk about live plans, we talk about the balance in life and where your business

fits in and it's not in isolation, it's just a part of our life and what you want to do and what

you want to stand for, and back to your, what's the word you used against the cost of loneliness?

An allowance. No allowance. So all allowance? Yeah, back to the allowance, I think there needs to be

some as well done, some thank yous, some presents, something for that as an allowance, so treat

yourself to a weekend away or a nice holiday or a new car or whatever you don't care, it doesn't

matter, it's just balancing the cost effectively, yeah, I think there's something else that's

important. Agreed, and we are talking again to complete the taxable analogy, we are talking about

its attacks, but there is a huge upside to this, being a business owner, developing a business

regardless of its eventual trajectory and objective, whether it's to have an asset that

provides an income or whether it's to have sold it and gone by an island somewhere, it is, it is

it's an honour and a privilege and it should be an enjoyable process, not always easy and

probably never easy, but it should be, it should be an enjoyable process and it is a big part

of your life, so you've got to, got to lean into it and seek the enjoyment of whether that

rewards or even just satisfaction from yeah, we handled that client situation really well or we

helped develop that young talent into first, these are all things that you can take satisfaction from.

Yeah, a hundred percent agree with that and I think that's sort of my kind of

bending remarks here on this really, is yeah, stop and smell the roses, it's not about the

destination, it's about the journey, taking me bloody decades to work that out, but apparently

that is what it is, because guess what, Sujiya to the destination, it was another destination,

straight away, straight off for it. So in real life, by the way, there's a whole,

there's a whole counselling and therapy groups of gold medal winners, did you know this?

Okay, no medal winner, I've had a ride, because it was as soon as you were in your Olympic gold medal

now, but there's a whole thing that your life into perspective, something that I've been working

for years, you've got it now, well, you know, how can that, so the whole sort of

whole purpose of life just appears in front of you and you have to unravel all that. So yeah,

it's, so in amongst all this loneliness, there are some good things, reflect on them, see them,

acknowledge them, appreciate them, as you go through, as much as you can, and find people who

remind you of that, if you're not doing it enough, I guess that's why I saw the closing remarks.

Any final remarks for yourself, Dan? Really, really enjoyed the conversation, I think it's

an important topic and yeah, hope, I hope anyone listened to this, so it's been useful when

we'll continue to be, and as always, very, very happy and enjoy talking to people in the space,

if there's anything there that's stuck out, that you want to, want to question or debate, feel free

to get in touch with both on LinkedIn and hopefully you can carry on the conversation.