Episode 156: Pat Lambie on Springbok Memories, Heyneke Meyer and Life After Rugby

This is the Lecker Rugby Pod, only on megaphone rugby.

Welcome to the Lecker Rugby Pod.

We are having a succession of fantastic guests.

Mike, I guess today is someone who gave me an absolute thrill in 2014.

My parents at Newlands took the whole tribe, had wonderful seats, and for a while it seemed

like a drag.

To play in the wallabies and the box were languishing, it was a 5-10 deficit at half-time

oranges.

Then it was still 8-10 when player number 22 came on, probably was 24 years at the age

of the time.

He notched a drop goal to get us into the lead and then a weaving try where he handed

off just but everyone.

It was Rhinach, Tanya Kani, Rhinach again, and then to this player 22 who then fended

and dommied and swerved and did the swivel hip to run to the line and then stretched just

enough to score.

You know him, you love him, he is the man from Durban who played seven seasons as a

buck.

Still has some of the greatest moments we can remember, Hainika Meyer exulting in the 55-meter

match winner.

But for me, it's that try that put me out of my seats and I was punching people around

me.

I'm Pat Lamy.

How's it, Pat?

Hello, Harry.

Thank you very much for the introduction and for your bringing up some very happy memories

there.

So, do you remember that while it was happening?

Was it one of those things you have to watch later and actually see what you did?

Because you went through seven guys.

I love how the story gets exaggerated.

But yes, that was one of my best, well, personally, I hold that little cameo, I don't know how

long it was 15 or 20 minutes off the bench as some of the better moments I had in a spring

block jersey.

Yeah, no, definitely.

You went from your left foot to the right, I think it was 20 minutes, come on for

Pollard.

But I was attracted to the team sheet.

I looked at it and I said, Cuba's right now.

I mean, it's fantastic, you know, I just spent some time with him in PE with the stormers

and he's still going strong.

Is there a part of you that still, and I know everyone knows the story of what came,

you know, what ended the career?

You kind of go, geez, I could be out there still.

Absolutely, especially seeing my teammates like Cuba still going, it's still going so strong

from strength to strength and, you know, making that number nine spring block jersey his.

So yeah, I guess when I started playing, I thought I was going to play in, so I was mid 30s.

That's where I am right now.

But everyone has the cards that are adults to them and that wasn't the plan for me.

And I've come to terms with it as much as I still would love to be out on the field.

I've entered into a new career and you chapter.

Yeah, and I want to talk about that.

Maybe that's the right play.

Just jump into it.

What in your rugby career sort of helps you when you're now doing property development,

big time property development with Collins?

There are many things that professional sport can prepare you for in the working world.

For starters, you have to deal with a lot of pressure.

You have to deal with teammates, their egos, their expectations of coaches.

You have to follow a game plan and strategy.

You have to plan and prepare to execute a game plan and a strategy.

And so yeah, there were many disciplines that professional sports and professional rugby

in my case, etched into me, which stood me in good state, I think, when I entered the

working world.

Yeah, for me too.

So I grew up in locker rooms and for most of my life was doing that kind of thing and

the accountability.

I think this is what prepares you.

I think in sport you put your hand up and you say you did something and your teammates

pick you up.

I find in the corporate world sometimes there's a lack of that.

So in a way, do you feel like you're bringing some of those values into the corporate workplace?

Absolutely, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

I think in the working world, sometimes what's lacking when you've come from an environment

where there's such a big focus and big energy spent on team and cohesion and rallying

together, sometimes in the working world that is missing.

It's something that I don't know if you can ever replace from a sports in world, that

change room banter and that real kind of mindset of prepared for something going toward

together and come out alive on the other side.

I don't know if it can be replicated in the working world, but certainly there's something

that is a great value for any professional, ex-professional sportsman to add into the working

world and to try and bring their team cohesion together.

So we had Aynika Maier on not too long ago and he was talking about how he picked people.

And I never forget that celebration, whereas literally his veins are popping out of his neck

when you nail that kick and when he talks about guys he can believe in, he can trust and

the players he formed relationships with, talk us through a bit about Maier, what kind

of coach was he, how did he motivate, how did he give you confidence to take that kind

of kick?

Yeah, Aynika, he picked me a lot, thankfully, but he picked me a lot on the bench as well,

which was straight to the bar at times, but Aynika was very, very prepared and straight

up and down the line kind of coach.

He had a very specific way that he wanted to play, game plan, he was particular about

our training schedule, our routine, our pre-match time slots and he left no stone unturned.

So he took a lot of pressure on players in that regard.

You knew that he had thought of everything, considered everything, had analysed our position

thoroughly with the help of his assistant coaches and truly believed in the game plan

that he was wanting us to try and execute on a weekend.

I think he was quite a superstitious coach as well and so sometimes that energy is not

necessarily all that positive in the team environment for the players at least, but we learnt that

it was all coming from a good place and him having to tell three short stories in our team

meeting just before we got on the bus, before we went to the stadium every test match.

We knew that it was for his own piece of mind, he felt like there was a tradition if you

like or a superstition, if you like that he needed to see to before we got on the bus.

He didn't cut us here between wins, so didn't watch us blazer between wins, didn't want

to change anything if we were on a winning streak.

Yeah, he had all these funny habits that as we matured as a playing group and spend more

time around him and as for you to know, we all started to enjoy it actually behind the scenes,

but he was very particular and thorough in his preparations and very good at helping the entire

squad understand the reason why we were doing things and the reason behind our tactics and our

game plan and the decision makers on the field, that the core group, the captain, the hooker,

eighth man's, come offline, fall back those guys who are making the calls out there on the field

or all part of strategy workshops and it was very thorough.

Yeah, and you played, I mean obviously when you call off the bench, you don't know where you're

going to slot in, but you played obviously at 10, 12, 15, most famously, 2015.

Final guns to all Blacks, we were coming in at a 15.

So for you, you had to learn more parts of the game plan, I suppose?

Yeah, anyway, luckily enough, I mean, yeah, I think in set phases, the first two or three phases,

on attack, you need to understand your role where you need to be, whether it's carrying the ball,

passing the ball, running a dummy line, keening a rack, switching direction.

But I think as a fly off, you pretty much have to understand everyone on the field's roles

and responsibilities. So to then have to slot in and execute at 12 or at 15, kind of were aware

of where those players should be at any given time. So it certainly kept things interesting for

me. It meant that I got to swap in a lot of training in all the different positions,

I'm a bit of an understanding of those different positions and our game plan, I guess.

And it also meant that I was able to be picked in the 23 in order to cover more than just one

position, which I think made me a few more tests than I might have had if that wasn't the case.

I mean, probably under Rossi and Kerr, you'd be more valuable, you know, they've been

envelopes of type, they can slot anywhere with the 62 bench or even a 71. So I'm interested

about Meyer, though, I've always wondered about this and no one's be able to confirm it. But I was

wondered if he scenario painted almost everything. Like if you find yourself in this part of the field

and this is happening, then you must do this or even scripting, you know, six phases instead of

just one or two, was it to that degree, almost like an NFL playbook where you have, you know,

red quadrant five, four, like they come a thing. Not quite to the degree of NFL, but certainly the

most structured and scripted coast that I ever played under. He definitely tried to replicate

different scenarios during the week in our training sessions and in our video sessions and

tactical meetings. So yellow card for a loose forward, yellow card for a lock, yellow card for a

hooker, yellow card for a fullback. Well, you know, basically if we were down to 14 men, how do we

approach things? If we've got a minute on the clock and we three points behind what is our plan?

If we minute left on the clock and we three points ahead, what is our plan? In terms of,

you know, six in planning for six phases, I don't think we ever really went more than three or four

phases. But then in terms of the game plan and a blueprint, if you broke down the 100 meters from

trial line to trial line, we had very sick lands within each 20 meter area of the pitch. So we knew

exactly what we could and could not do and what the coaches wanted us to do and not to do within

each of those zones. So I wouldn't say it was as scripted as as in FL. But it certainly was a lot of

structure, a lot of preparation and a lot of particular players within each zone of the field.

Is there a particular test that you kind of go over in your mind? I mean, the one that you're

associated with that I was at was a trick in the semi-final goes to Oblex. And there's parts of

that game that even I was sitting in the stands, I still replay my mind. Do you do any of that still

and what would be the test that you kind of go back and kind of replay in your head?

It's really hard for me not to replay the 2011 Rugby World Cup quarterfinal against Australia

in Wellington over and over again. That was the bulk of that squad was the 2007 World Cup winning team

and they were trying to go back to back. And I was a wide-eyed,

21 years old. Yeah. It had my 21st birthday during the World Cup. I thought I was just an

extra squad member. I didn't think I was going to get any game time and a few injuries after the

first pool game. I suddenly started a pool back for every other pool game including the first

day off match the quarterfinal and it felt like we were on to such a good thing. There was

such belief within that group and we just it just was not our day. A few calls went against us,

you know, it tries this allowed. It was a try. It was a try, man. So my son and I were sitting

square. We were right there. You just didn't sell it enough. Like if you had, you know, cricket

quarter something. I don't know. It was that forward. Yeah. In this day, in this day and age,

it would definitely be awarded as a try in my view, even with all the video reviews and assistant

reps and things. And so had that driving in love, that would have been my first ever test try.

We would have won the match. We would have gone on to play in the semi-final and I think everyone

in our group genuinely believed that we were going to win that World Cup because all of the pressure

heaped on Yuzid and there's the home nation and all the expectation on them. We felt like

there would be the team to beat and it was very, very possible. So that game would play over and

I'll play over in my head over and over the wardiffs. Do you tend to do that as a sportsman? Obviously,

you also a really good cricket third Michael House. Do you or you're someone who analyzes things

post? Maybe even in corporate world, are you sort of a person who deconstructs something later

and sees how the deal went differently? The game went differently.

Yes, I am. I found myself doing that with my golf game nowadays. I replay all the shots that I

hit or missed out there. So it was no different when I was a player. It was very hard to sleep the

night after a game or the night of the game. You replay a reaction over in your head and try to

think how you could have done things better or differently with the bounce of the ball gone the

other way. Sometimes the plays in times are when you replay the good moments. You think,

oh, my word, that could not have gone any better for me. Those if you're involved between.

Yeah, I mean, just replay that weaving run where you hand off Adam Ashley Cooper hand in the face

down to the ground. Thank you, son. Keep moving. Now, for me, it's opposite. I always actually

replay the things where I stuffed up. That's what I kind of tried to redo in my mind.

And I think that would be sort of probably not a good thing. Did you have sports psychologists

associated with the box with the sharks back in the day? Or was that sort of something more recent?

We had a sports psychologist dip in and out at the sharks over my eight to nine years there.

And then we had a period with Hanukkah Mayor where the sports psychologist bought on board

for about 18 months, I think. If I could start my career all over again, the first thing I would do

is find a sports psychologist and get them on a retainer, have a monthly appointment or a bar

monthly appointment and not necessarily to deal with anything more than recovering from injuries

and getting back out onto the field. I think I had a few injuries and then towards the end,

it was the concussion injuries that were the most taxing. But if I had had a sports psychologist,

I'll be deal with the anxiety of returning to play again after being hurt after an injury,

as well as dealing with the pressures of media and selection and expectation that you place

on yourself and expectation that fans place on you, that coaches place on you, etc. I think I

may have tapped into an extra few percentages of performance along the way.

Yeah, it's such a mental game. In the end, obviously, physical, beyond belief physical,

but also this mental edge. I just spent some time recently in PE with Kuba's lineup.

And he was telling me about how to play far away from home and the idea of being in front.

You were rising, I think, for a while. So the idea of playing around the world, rugby is a global

game. Yeah, it's interesting. I think maybe that's the final 5% for teams. Do you think that,

you know, that's what takes them over the top. The box right now looks like the French are building

something. The old black seem to lack a bit of belief. And I mean, you played the old black so

many times, 11 times, I think in your career, they always came in with that swagger. And, you know,

isn't that really the key there at the top level of any performance sport?

Correct. The margins are so small. And that psychological edge can be the one or two points

at the in the 80th minute that's the deciding factor. And you mentioned it in my career, it felt like

the old blacks had that psychological edge over us. They'll tell us, well, the table is turned,

now the tide is turned, now it's definitely feels like the spring box has a psychological edge over

for all blacks and every other team in the world at the moment. And that is really

the one the best of the best of playing each other on the top and the sport is playing each other.

It's the psychological edge. I believe that makes the difference.

Who's the better golfer you are, Corbus?

Hands down me. I don't think Corbus can play most golf.

Well, he couldn't he couldn't when he was at the sharks when he was much younger. Maybe his time

overseas in England and France, maybe he's picked up a few golf lessons and a few tips.

They all get obsessed by golf in the end. So who was the best golfer in the box?

Set up that you know when you were around it.

When I was around it, I think for me to pre had the lowest handicap.

Scott Berger and Butch J and his were hot on his heels.

It was always a very competitive match when they were in a football.

Scott Berger, I would imagine him spraying some drives some really far over too,

no?

He's got a beautiful smooth left handed golf swing. And yeah, he just keeps it quite simple

and he can hit a long ball.

So speaking of the sharks, it also was something that's a team sheet from 2014.

And there's JP Peterson and now he's a coach. He talked to JP anything recently.

I do see JP fairly regularly actually. He's got kids sort of the same age as mine.

They've been in the odd class together at school and his wife and my wife are friendly.

So we bump into them often. We see them socially and it's been wonderful to see his

rise to the top of the sharks and his coaching career has gone from strength to strength in

such a short period of time. So he's such a good guy. He without a doubt will bring the best

art and his playing squad. He's honest, he's hardworking and I hope that he gets the support

that he needs from his assistant coaches and from management so that he can have a successful

round as they head coach at the sharks. JP was such a physical player and I almost think he

would thrive in today's, you know, where there's no guards, no shepherds, no escorts. So the aerial

game is now a fair chase for the contestant. You know, just I could see him challenging there.

You know, it's an interesting thing. How do you see that playing out? Do you think that the sharks

have a sort of a three year type plan building here or do you think it can turn around, you know,

in one season? I think the things that they have, they can turn around, turn around the drop of the

hat. The quality of players in the group is really, really exceptional. I think it's about getting

every little bit out of those, those players as individuals. I don't think that the game plan is

flawed. Perhaps side offense needs to tighten up a little bit, but, you know, where it was

sport-wise, we've got game-breakers, we've got a lot of players that we need. I would think that

JP has probably made sure that he's got some time on the seat without having to immediately turn

things around. I think we might see a few changes in personnel through us to the playing spot.

Perhaps we've been a bit top-heavy, maybe gets a younger, hungrier spring box involved in the

setup, and maybe not as many spring box, so that the disruption of them leaving for international

duty and then returning again doesn't completely throw everyone. I think that's been quite a hard

thing to navigate in the last couple of months. Is that what you mean by top-heavy age and caps?

Correct. I mean, I don't know what the number is. Is 13 or 14 spring box in the shark squad?

I mean, it's almost the whole team of spring box players, so when they are called for duty,

I mean, they're obviously earning the big backs. I've been paid the most by the sharks, and so

perhaps the gap between them and the rest of the playing squad is too big.

And so maybe we only need five or six of the best spring box in our squad.

And the rest should all be aspiring to play for the spring box, you know, young and hungry,

and weekend and weekends, wearing their hearts and their sleeves, putting their best foot forward,

learning from the spring box around them, and going for it.

And it makes sense, you know, it's exhausting. You know, like, look at the

the players who play for the Lions, and they're now they're playing, you know, in the Six Nations,

and some of them look just dead.

Speak to that. I mean, what was it like playing in the World Cup?

And I go, at the end, were you just wiped? Were you almost like a zombie after those?

Yes, those big tournaments, so Lions to Six Nations, a rugby championship,

and in particular, a World Cup. Those are the pinnacles. So you are gearing up, you're working

towards it, you're wanting to be fixed and strong and healthy, and firing in all cylinders when

those occasions come around. And then at the end, there's this massive come back down to earth,

come back to reality where you've got to be able to lift yourself up again physically and emotionally,

having spent so much time and energy and emotion on that event, or on that occasion. So,

yeah, I mean, I remember coming home from both the World Cups that I played in,

and obviously, we, we came third in 2015, we came home, the quarter finals in 2011,

so both occasions coming home disappointed, having not met your expectations, having not

fulfilled the dream, and basically going straight back into some club rugby for the sharks,

which was very hard to then suck yourself up for and feel energized for body sore, body's tired,

mentally, not a sharp, and so it's not easy. I would really hope to see a global rugby calendar,

or at least rugby in both hemispheres being more aligned, so that in South Africa,

we can accommodate a proper carry cap competition. We can still have our URC fixtures going on,

and we can still have our spring box playing in the spring boxers, you without anything

overlapping or advancing from one to the other, and without our base players,

literally having an 11 or 12 month season without a race without a preseason.

Yeah, no doubt. It's, it's, we all agree on it. We agree vehemently on it in rugby,

and then we don't do it. It's literally frustrating to me. The shape of the game we talked about in

London recently, and I know we as South Africans all up in arms about the deep power in the scrum and

all this, and I think we successfully defended the honor and the virtue of the scrum. I'm more

interested in the other shape of the game issue, which is it's aerial, and that's literally,

I don't want to get into the concussion story so much, I'm sure it's been told, and you probably

sick of it. But literally, you know, the event that happened that that precipitated the

end of your career was an aerial battle. See, just on there. And, you know, and so it should rugby

become more aerial, is we want people leaving their feet as much as they are now, or do we want to go

back to more of a ground game? I'm not sure I have the answer, but I do like that the player off

ground is being protected, and I do like that if you are competing for the ball, you have to be

realistically, you have to have a chance to catch the ball, you can't pretend to be trying to

catch the ball and take someone's legs out from underneath them. So in that regard, it's certainly

much safer for the player who's receiving a high ball, and in the same breath, more and more,

safer for the player who's chasing the high ball trying to catch it. It is, yeah, it is a big

part of our game at the moment. There's, you know, a box kicking from the scrum halves with

wings chasing it. It is the simplest way to gain territory and to create an unstructured turn-over

position situation where you go from kicking the ball away to suddenly getting it right back with

some field position and an unstructured defense to run out, which I do like about it. And I think

more for me, the more frustrating thing at the moment with our game is that when there's an arc on

and we have to scrum, we lose three minutes on the clock before that scrum has been executed

and the ball's out. I love that the scrum is such an important part of the game and dominating a

scrum and the art and the technique behind it is, I'm not, you know, I'm not laughing at all for

all. My frustration is around the time it takes for players to get set, to bend over and just start

pushing against each other and the number of resets we see in the scrum as well throughout the game.

So I would love to see more ball in playtime. I think we're lucky if we get 25 to 30 minutes of

ball in playtime over an 80 minute period in a professional game. I'd love to see far more ball

in playtime and then, you know, the aerial battle, I think, becomes a little bit relevant. I think

you're going to find that players will get more tired, there'll be more opportunities from deep

inside we're on half, not having to kick it away and compete for it in the high ball and we won't

have to spend so much time staring at 16 players preparing themselves to scrum ball.

Yeah, I mean, you could have a scrum clock pretty easy, you know, once the ref determines that

the, that's been formed properly, then the clock looks back on. That's fascinating. You know,

part of this is just a search for space and so the kick space, the chip space, you exploited very

well. You were always a multi-skilled type footballer, sort of in the George Ford, you know,

sort of the Johnny Wilkinson type, you know, we like, you know, you played the full court game.

Now it seems like there's more, the tens are really different from each other. You know,

Sam Prindergauss versus Jack Crowley. Maybe you have prototypes. When you're thinking about it now,

sort of you, if you could go back in time, you know, would you do anything different in terms of,

you know, your skill sets? Was there things that you wanted to try that guys like Anika Mayasid know?

I think the best playoffs for me that have played the game and at any given time are the fly harps

who can do it all. They can catch past, step, fin, tackle, kick the ball into space, pass the ball

into space, they can offload, they can use their feet, they can identify space, they have time on

the ball. So I always tried to work on all of my skills so that I was trying to become the most

complete player that I possibly could. Early on in my career, my kicking game was probably lacking

and Anika Mayas made me aware of that. And so I'd certainly spent a lot more time and energy on my

kicking game sort of in my kicking out of hand like the tactical kicking or tactical kicking and

then initially some goal kicking as well. So if I could go back again, I would spend as much time

on the kicking aspect, but I wouldn't want it to be at the detriment of free-flowing, you know,

expansive play, having a go, taking a player on, taking the ball to the line, offloading,

playing from deep inside your own half. Basically just taking the space wherever it presents itself

no matter where you are in the field. So I don't know of all of your things too differently,

that's probably maybe one thing I'd do. You know, just my whole rugby life was as a loose forward.

So you kind of, you know, your tunnel vision, you know, just trying to find the 10 to more

human. But you know, if you have the bull in hand, you just trying to find a gutter run over.

Just imagining life as a 10 first receiver, how do you see it all? I mean, it just seems on the

few occasions that I played that role, you know, whatever I thought I could see, then I looked at

the film later and it was so different and I go, why didn't I see that? You know, how did you train

your eyes to see? It's a very small space and you've got one, two, one, two seconds,

boom, boom, boom, boom, you know, how do you do that? Yeah, it takes a bit of getting used to.

There are a few different things that you can do to help. So one little technique,

it helped. Obviously, you mentioned tunnel vision, it's no good if you're having to

try and assess what's going on all over the field and identify the where the spaces which

which might be straight in front of you, it also might be up wide, it might be in behind.

There's just a glance up at each corner flag or glance up at the crossfire, just that little

moment up you, you kind of pick up where bodies are on the field. And it was also,

his good training was to not worry so much about the ball at that point in time and when someone

is being tackled and you know, you had one or two seconds for the rack to take place and for

the scrum off to pick the ball up and pass it to you. It's at that moment where you actually look

up and see what bodies are in front of you, what players you have around you. Obviously,

makes a huge difference if it's quick ball or fast ball or slow ball if you're inside your

half or inside their half whether your mindset is attacked or defend. But just keeping your eyes

up as the playmaker helps you be able to see where the space is or where there are opportunities

to try and attack. Used to get better at identifying not just whether there were bodies in front of you

or whether those bodies were numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 or whether those bodies were centres and

lose forwards in which case, maybe not such a good idea to run at them and take them on with some

footwork. But 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, you might be able to play with a little bit or run a dummy line or

chip over the top of them because they're turning circles are not so quick and a little bit

larger. So those are all things, I think, for this players. They take their liking too and they

are able to identify better than others. That's fascinating. It's almost like your eyes were a

muscle, you know, to your training just like, you know, biceps and a gym. I went to a speed reading

course when I was a kid and it changed my life because being able to read quickly and retain

it is massive. And what you just described is almost like reading a book, each game is a little

book, you have to read it and it's different. Were you doing most of the calls, you know, just

recently put aside for the stormers versus Laura Schell, I was amazed at how much communication

was going on from, you know, from outside centre, back in to 10 and then sometimes it's the

nine getting calls from two different people at the same time. You know, I got how did you organize

all that and it's pretty loud. It's not like you can just whisper to each other.

Yeah, in terms of the noise factor, it's amazing how there is a lot of white noise in a stadium,

but you get used to hearing your teammates voices and that's what your ears tune into.

So even though there's some chaos around you, you know, you're listening for your teammates voices.

The teams I played in mostly, I was the one as the fly off calling the play. So same way,

change the direction, scrum off past the forwards, scrum off, I want the ball now. Let's kick it now.

But then, you know, there's a lot of information that gets passed on from the outside

backs because they're not in amongst it, you know, like a fly off is and they've got a little bit

more time to actually look up and see what's in front of them and relay that information in. So

so oftentimes the scrum off may get a call and then in the next breath, it's a it's a completely

different call because the pictures changed in front of us or someone has seen an opportunity

outside. But Jesus, you had some talkers besides you in the box. So I mean, you had Valy,

at the back, you had JP, you had Obama, you had John DeValleas. I mean, how did you get a word in?

Look, everyone knows their place and knows their role. And so at the end of the day,

the 10 is the one who dictates the play and based on information that he sees and information

that gets passed on to him. I mean, yeah, Brian and JP, they're one of the ball paths to them,

every single play, Valy wants the ball and every single play wants to have a go. And that's

actually what you want as a playmaker. You want guys around you calling for the ball,

identifying opportunities wanting to have a go when it's quiet and you don't feel like anyone

wants the ball, you almost feel like you've got no one to take any pressure off you or no one who's

willing to, you know, take the grip between their teeth and get on with things. So,

yeah, it's good. You would appreciate the talking that goes on if you attend a captain's practice

or a training session inside a stadium where there are no fans. It's just like

flock of hardy guys yapping and being at each other trying to just pass the nation on and talk

to each other. That's brilliant. Back to the beginning, I wanted to get, you know,

sort of the origin story too. Your grandfather Nick Labuskachni was an England hooker in the 50s

and a dentist, which I think is a perfect occupation for a front rower because you're going to

lose those teeth. You know, did you always know you were going to be rugby player or did you sort of

dabble in your mind with maybe I'm a cricketer, maybe my golfer, maybe whatever, a tennis player?

I definitely didn't always know I could be a rugby player. I might have always wanted to be a

rugby player. I was far better at cricket as a youngster than I was at rugby. It did help that

my grandfather had some history in rugby and I sort of sort of knew that there was a gene there

maybe that would kick in and likewise for my dad. He was to play a few games for Natal. So,

I guess on both sides of the family there was a rugby gene. But it was only when I was 17

that I really started finding my feet on the rugby field and where, you know, I made a few

representatives of teams that suddenly made me think, okay, maybe there's a chance I could be a

additional rugby player. Why did you pick rugby over cricket?

Rugby's always been my passion and I played at a higher level in rugby at school than I did at

cricket. So, I had the opportunity to show in the Sharks Academy, I shared off to school and

I gave it a full goal. Were you a batsman, Bowler? Well, Rounder?

I was definitely more of a batsman and number three batsman and I used to bowl a little bit of

seam but more of a batsman than a bowler. So, the eye hand coordination was there early,

eye feet, eye hand. Are you one of those annoying guys when you went out to play golf, you immediately

were shooting in the 80s, high 70s? No, I wish I was a really good golfer but I'm very average.

Talk to me about this big rivalry to our coming up with all Blacks. I'll pump to you about that

and do you think that's the right way to go? To reestablish one-on-one tours, not so much

of the rugby championship, always dominating. Yeah, I love that it's an old school tour where we get

to see our pop-up test series against the two best rugby nations in the world and I think

sprinkled in every now and then to the rugby calendar, these sorts of tours are

extremely exciting. I think for a player as well, so not just for fans. So having sat on both sides

of the equation, I think this is a good thing and I think we're going to see full stadiums and

you're going to see it really well-supported and I think the rest of the rugby world is going to be

envious of the rivalry and the tour that lies ahead. Knowing what you know now, all things considered

your kids, if they wanted to play rugby, are you totally fine and good with it? Absolutely.

I still love the sports. I always will, even though I had some injuries and I had to start playing

early. My boys, I'm going to encourage them to play every sport they can and if rugby is one

that they want to play and it looks like that's what they do want to play already, then I'll stand

in full support of it and I'll try and help them make sure they get their heads on the

outside of the tackle. That's it. Brilliant, man. Pat, it's been wonderful to catch up with you.

It's fantastic to see you also in such great health and doing so well. All the best. So do you

want to tell us a little bit about what you're doing, particularly right now in business or

what's the actual thing you're doing right now? Thanks, Harry. I work for a property development

company on the North Coast of Cozillian-Ital here in South Africa and we have mostly been developing

residential lifestyle estates. So we acquire previously agricultural land and rezone it to

residential and put on all the roads and services so that people can then design and build their

dream homes within a safe, secure state with wonderful facilities and we're now sinking our teeth

into schools and shopping centers and hospitals and other commercial opportunities all around

these estates here in the Greater Belito area. So my role is on the development team so I'm in

project coordination some sales and some marketing. You're actually finding those, so you're finding

those potential things or you're closing on them. So I have been involved in finding potential

opportunities and then putting together these projects where from start to finish you've got to

include quantities of theirs, architects, town planners, environment, consultants, engineers.

It's all got to be priced. You've got to bring it to market with a good campaign and obviously

to sell what you're offering and then deliver on it, actually follow through and construct what

you have promised. So the whole development cycle. Like a stuff man. Hey Pat, thanks so much for coming

to the Lecker Rugby. What do we love having you on? We'd love to have you back anytime. We're

talking about a specific test or a thing that just happened but brilliant to catch up with you. Thanks.

Thank you so much for having me. How are you? This is the Lecker Rugby Pod only on megaphone rugby.