Episode 199: Carter Bays and Craig Thomas Interview Part Two

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This is the after show for Gimme 5

Featuring part two of my interview with Carter Bayes and Craig Thomas

Creators of how I met your mother

Hopefully you've listened to Gimme 5

What an amazing pilot, so rude, so wrong, so funny

And I think so moving

We talk a lot about the real-life story behind it

About how this was written just as much out of nostalgia for a time gone by

As how I met your mother was

We talk about the writers room experiences that shape the script

We talk about that writers room culture that was passed on generation to generation

And is in danger of dying out

I talked to Carter and Craig for the two hours it could have been gone on for much longer

Such a treat

If you like conversations like this, you're here, you're listening to this

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But here we go with part two of my conversation with Carter Bayes and Craig Thomas

Let's skip ahead to New York

So I don't know when New York mythological, after how I met your mother

Which pilot was this, what number pilot after how I met your mother was?

Oh boy

So during how I met your mother, we were still under an overall deal at 20th

So we were writing pilots

We did several that didn't go anywhere

One that briefly seemed to be going somewhere with Chris Harris

So I think you know what I've had on the show Andrew

Yeah

And so we had written other pilots that we really liked or co-written them that didn't go anywhere

So we had already had a bunch of failures, quote failures

And obviously I got to reprogram my mind

Other things we liked that didn't go forth

We got to figure out a catcher right to say that

By the time we were done with how much from mother

But after how much from mother we signed a deal at Sony for like a three-year deal to develop stuff with them

And it was in that deal that we wrote both of the pilots that you did

That we did table reads with you here on dead pilot society, New York mythological and kidney five

And those were two of our favorite ones we wrote in that flurry of writing pilots for Sony for a couple of years

And it was disappointing that neither one got shot or table read or really got anywhere at all

And we loved them both

We worked really hard on them and we loved them both

We already had that sense of you know it wasn't like we knew that it wasn't all going to be how I met your mother

So I guess this is what I'm trying to say by this point

Right I mean it's got to be tough that you know it is that that thing of coming off of you know a hit show

And just something that's just a phenomenon like that it's just like you kind of do know it as it's ending like

Because you've had enough to see it before like oh it's you know that's why I was so I remember when friends ended

It was just a sort of terrifying thing because it was like like we'll never be the same like what I see this

And you know you're hot but that's not like enough it only gets you so far it gets you maybe

Yeah, I let's sell it doesn't necessarily get them shot and it certainly doesn't nothing you know no one's so hot that there shows automatically get on the air

Like it's just that's for sure

Um yeah

Do you remember what the what the sort of spark for New York mythological was?

I think it was we loved Buffy so much we love it

Buffy the main person was a big influence I think

How can we do a half hour how can we do a half hour Buffy we had moved back to New York

We had moved from LA back to New York at the minute how I met your mother ended

We wanted to make a show in New York we were in we were these frauds making a pretend show about New York for a decade in Los Angeles

We never shot one frame of footage in New York. We really begged the studio

Can we go just for one episode to shoot one sequence in New York did not convince them to do it even when the show was ahead

Yeah, because it was expensive and we never we said we've got to write something that is a love letter to New York that can only be shot in New York single camera

And so that was New York mythological was sort of born of that feeling of one of the New York love letter to the city and really do it there

And it felt like a way to do a show that that we could we could write a lot of stories but also sort of

It tickled a different part of our brains than then how my mother did I mean it really you know as you say like you come off of that experience and you're at this crossroads of like I could spend the rest of my career chasing this and just try and do it again and again and again

Yeah or or try to do something a little different and this felt like I think Craig and I were always fans of sci-fi and fans of like things like the twilight zone

We love the idea of like these refillable you know like I mean Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a great template for it because it was you know the same characters it was you know and going back I think like Sherlock Holmes or like the ex files yeah

It's we love the idea of like the same characters each week exploring a different bizarre thing that happens and having to get to the bottom of it

We I think some of the some of our favorite shows to write on how my mother were mysteries like we would like every now and then there would be a mystery episode like there's the one where you know Ted gets drunk and wakes up next to a pineapple and doesn't remember what happened

And like the whole episode is them sort of figuring out what happened and so I think New York mythological felt like a way to just do a mystery every week which we which we really liked

And what's interesting too is that you did you know in view it with this sort of how I met your mother start sort of dating

Yeah the pilots about dating the pilots about it's the pilot is it's hard to date in New York City except on this show as opposed to how much mother we could have a guy get turned into a frog by a woman he had he had scoring turned out to be literally a witch

And he you know it we just love the idea of getting a little urban legendness in there like the myth of this or the myth of the legend of that because cities have that right like every city has these sort of magical

What's the magic hiding in the city what's the diagonally of it all what's what and New York has that feeling and so we thought if he can capture some of that feeling and also still kind of do a show about dating

It kind of lets us flex our him flex our him you muscles a little bit but it's just a totally different way to get to it

Um and we yeah we were we we loved that idea we love the idea of the magic of it all but it was still romantic comedy

It was a half hour romantic comedy single camera in New York with yeah with supernatural elements like the specifically the formula of getting to explore like this

Fantasical phenomena as as metaphor for some real phenomena in in the world of dating you know like like the idea of like this guy you know in the pilot of people

And what people will people be watching this though they've already seen it or they will have already listed

They've already listened to it yeah and members will have gotten to watch it

So that's the reason to go to Max and the fun dot org slash join dead pilots and become a member so you can there you go

Yeah, well done sign up in this part will make sense because of the way he created Andrew no one even noticed that that was an ad

Like the idea of like you know this this guy who you know sleeps around and and it the the

Just sort of like the hyperbolic logical progression of like not only does he have a rep a little bit of a reputation

Every single woman in Manhattan hates his guts like like and then the fact that's the product of a of a curse like it just felt it felt fun

It felt like a fun way to tell those kind of stories right it's great because it's just like yeah you're taking the thing that is the advantage of being in a city

Like New York which is you could probably get away with this you know because there's just so many people and like oh but what if you couldn't

What if your curse that you can't you can't get away with it like and you know I guess even this many years past when you did it

It's even now a little bit harder to get away with that because of like social media and being you know being called apps and whatever but still

It's just like it's it's just such a smart integration of these two these two elements where do you remember were there other how

Well do you remember how you pitch so pitching other story ideas it was fun to come up with ideas for that

We had so many ideas for it and that's that's the part that was the most heartbreaking and makes me feel like like I just I was going back and looking at some of the some of the work

We because we really like art for both of these we like really like arched out a season and like had like the we knew what it was

Yeah, it wasn't like that teacher show where we didn't know what the hell else the stories are going to do we really had a lot of really fun stuff a lot of fun

Surprises and like reveals about like each of the characters has some secret that you don't know about in the first episode but you'll find it out

Of the course of the season and yeah, it was it was a that that's the part that that makes pilots heartbreaking when they don't go because

Carter any other day I had this idea forgive me I have to say one of the we were out in my was that was my wife and kids and

Somebody one of us had to pee really badly and I remember we were just walking on New York City and it was like we couldn't be nowhere a bathroom was

This one idea that was just going to be a detail in that show that there was this mythological bathroom that would appear to the worthy

Yeah

It's clean it's like a little detail that was making it like a serious runner like if you really if you are a person who was noble and worthy of it

It would appear to you in your hour of need

It was just like I wanted we wanted to show her like stuff like that could happen

I know yeah, we yeah, we we really like we did the work of world building and really filled out this university was so much fun

It was fun to do and again it goes back to what we were talking about like you have to just enjoy the fun of it because I'm sorry that people don't

Won't find out like Nessie's backstory and what happens to her and who the big bad of the whole season was but like it was fun to do and it was fun to come up with and you know for Craig and I also like being

It's like and I'm sure you've dealt with this too like when you're writing a pilot you're constantly like writing the break like don't get so like

Don't don't don't fall too much in love don't don't come up with too much stuff because it'll go away in a second and yeah

Yeah, I think at this point I just assume so strongly I believe so strong that these things won't go anywhere that I'm

I'm sort of able to just like commit to it despite that just commit to it just for yeah

There's a freedom in that there's a freedom in just like well I actually have to like this thing

I actually just have to like what I'm doing in this moment. It's like trying to like washing the dishes or whatever

Like I've got to wash these dishes that I can I is her way I can somehow enjoy this there's like a Zen there's like a kind of meditation to it that maybe

Is good in a way because I think we're way too attached to results were way the fuck to attach to results and actual most of the experience is not results

Most of the experience is making the thing even when you're making a TV show you're just constantly making it right even in success

You're not you're not really thinking about the results that much and it's funny. It's so easy to forget that but if you can meditate on that

It's really valuable. Yeah, I mean I can see that you know it's rare to have what you had with this which is not only like you like the putt

But you're so excited about the future episodes you're so excited about you know

Well, you know it's got an engine that can just keep you know producing

Episode yeah, it's not one of those like I know we've got a great pilot and this is really fun

We'll figure out what the show is we're bringing a writers room and we'll all figure it out together. Yeah, we knew we knew what it was

We knew what the tone was and the problem is we were we were to mention less moonbus again. He didn't like that. He didn't like magic

He wasn't churned by that at all. He was not a coffee fan. He didn't think it was cool to have a comedy that felt like the twilight zone or like

Yeah, we get it all we can't get a note like can the magic not be real can it be like not real magic right just like why are we doing this?

Oh why are we did that like just leave the audience?

Never one lesson for anyone watching this anyone developing if you get even a hint of the

The studio or network or streamer that you're making this for not wanting it to be the thing you want it to be like

Run for the hells. What do you now that you brought that up?

So what do you do?

Because what you're right you what you know at that point is this thing's not going to it's yeah it's not going to go it's not going to work because

But do you then just stick to your guns and be recalcitrant so it's hard and I'll I mean the the

You know we we actually ran the live experiment on that one because Craig and I we

A show that we developed with Chris Harris called the Goodwin Games which which which got picked up and ran for a season that was an example of

We had this we wanted to make the Westing game as a as a as a sort of sibling grown sibling comedy

Where it's you know that this this this this father has is like this puzzle master and he's issued

And he passes away and and and tells his kids in the will like you know the winner of these games the person who

Solve all these puzzles and mysteries will inherit the fortune you know which was such a fun

Concept for us and especially for Chris Harris who's like a huge like crossword puzzle games guy

But they and and Fox I think bought it on you know we was on the good will of we were the how make your mother guys and we you know this was our first

New show after how make your mother and what we didn't realize and this was the like the thing that we loved about it which was these games these puzzles this like sense of like there's a mystery to solve and we have the audience can solve the mystery together.

They wanted none of that they just wanted something to pair with new girl and you know new girl is great and they just wanted three siblings living in a house together three adult siblings living in a house that's like uncomplicated and fun.

Now what we did was we fought we fought them on that and we we pushed back and we were like please you know let us do this the way we want to do it.

In hindsight and Craig we've never talked about this and I there is a tiny part of me that feels like what if we had just given in.

We're going to get rid of the whole game thing it's just like they live in the house that they all inherited because the truth is I love new girl new girl is a great show and like these shows are great and there's like once you do relieve yourself pull that you know what you think is the linchpin out like maybe there is something that I don't know in hindsight so you answer your question and we like I don't know the answer in our in our case we fought and the show didn't make it past a season didn't even make it past.

Half a season I think I think we got we got pulled halfway through.

I don't know I don't know what the counterpoint there is when we were pitching how I met your mother we were so convinced to be good at NBC Andrew and if it had maybe three would have gotten on the air too.

But what happened was we pitched it to NBC and literally in the pitch meeting they go the future narration ideas confusing.

That's that don't do that take that out it should just be young people dating and we're like isn't that friends isn't that literally like what's going off the air as we speak right now on your network and the answer was yes we want to like do another.

We're like outrage but but that would be friends like yeah yeah listen you understand the request we're making you and we we were like fuck that you were just so lucky you had another place.

We want to we yes see to their credit CBS and again so low or level like less moon best the president now we had nothing to do with it need a tasker no one had.

But like Wendy Trilling Julie Pernmouth eating Mendoza they were all these executives that were there and they were wonderful and smart and cool people and they believed in the charm and quirkiness and the storytelling experimentalness of how much mother of what we were literally pitching them and they actually listen to what we wanted to do and said that's cool.

We're looking for something a little younger and a little different we really really want this and we're like wait a second this is the one place we thought it was never going to go the oldest the oldest skewing network yeah it was going to go to NBC but we've already had that shitty pitch at NBC where they were like we might buy this if you promise to take out everything you like.

And so we did actually with our agents help and stuff like we did make a good early decision there like no don't convince yourself ahead of time listen to what people are saying to you what will the process actually be like you didn't think it was going to be at CBS but they're saying the right things you thought it was going to be an NBC they're saying the absolute wrong things and thank God we that was a moment where we did make the pivot at the exact moment like we saw the exit ramp and we sort of took it.

With the good when games we were given ample warning signs or that that literally like they're like we don't like the games part very early like well that's one of the three words in the title like I'm not counting it's a.

Yeah we don't know that yeah Sean Parking come in take away the good we like like literally like this is not a good like that was good yeah deep cut deep cut deep cut I'm with you the literally and I don't want to I don't want to like it's all love for everyone involved in the story all love all love but literally the decision maker of the network was there for the first half of our pitch and had to leave halfway through and literally the first half.

Of the pitch was three siblings and they're living in a house that they that they inherited because their dad died and they they're all very different haven't lived under the same roof in a long time and they're making a work.

Uh he says like oh you know what I have another meaning I got to go but I love this basically basically signals like buy this is a true story and he leaves after he leaves were like but here's the twist there's a mystery that you have to solve and there's all these puzzles and games and he's got this will that's got this like labyrinthine like.

You know and and we were so excited about that part and he literally didn't hear any of that and so executives were like yeah well he's going to love that part too.

Yeah if you love it so we love that too and then they bought it and forgot about it until suddenly we're making it.

And I think there actually was the moment of like we handed in the first draft and and I think that was I don't want to I don't want to assume but I think that was maybe the first time that this decision maker actually saw the good win games part of it.

Yeah.

Oh wait no no no no no.

I think we heard for the grapevine the line.

What's with all this game shit.

Oh geez.

And it was a pilot where the cover page said the good win.

Again I just want to point out you to everyone was warned.

Yeah I mean the thing about less was at least like he had such strong it's like he was so clear it was just like no guys with beards you know there's.

Oh yeah right yeah right you just like so he was just he was decisive and you know you so you kind of at least knew.

Guffa just knew where you stood which I think is less and less true a lot of the time now but anyway so did you so you were Sony when you were selling New York

Mythological so you probably took it out everywhere right.

Yeah we did and I think CBS matched it up just because we they liked they liked working with us they like time at your mother in retrospect that time around I think there were signs that they didn't.

Embrace the fundamental concept right they have a time at your mother we probably should have run screaming at that point but I maybe they were the only one that bit on it Carter I can't even remember anymore.

I think they might have been yeah they were wary of the magic they're like it was a lot of like I bet we could get less to understand what this is maybe.

Yeah and it was a lot of like convincing years once you hear that convincing them self tone you should probably run for the hell's.

It felt like we were you know I think we were coming off of having a mother and so we were really felt like well if you're going to like take a flyer and do the thing that sounds like a little daring this is the time to do it and that is and I think a hindsight it probably.

Seen kind of expensive I think I mean it's also 11 years ago Carter I bet now we would have gone like 10 episodes at netflix you know we probably get it to a couple of streamers this is a while ago though and it wasn't the same it's changed so much yeah I think it would have a much better shot now and you were not saying you have to resurrect it and get.

You set up now but if you if you this can happen we know and listeners approach already will have heard me and we just you know we have our first resurrected dead pilot right.

Hey hey very nice certainly yours Joe port and Joe wiseman that is our first show to have gone from a dead pilot society reading to now we will it's going to be on the air.

That's awesome and you know which is well deserved and it's so cool and you know like we've done you know well however many pilots and you know I love you know pretty let's say I love them all but not all of them some of them just like I love this pilot I totally get why it didn't get on the air and I can't get getting on the air but it's just so great as a pilot or you know a lot of times it's just it's so weird or this is one of the ones and just like not blow and smoker anything I'm just honest.

This is one of the pilots who done where I'm like someone should be smart enough to you're very kind to pick the show like this show just feels like it has you know it's it's so well conceived it has such an engine it just seems really fun it has it's combines elements that people like in it yeah yeah well what was happy with about hearing it again after all these years hearing it ever hearing it for the first time all these years but reading it to you.

But reading it because you were kind of to do it and we read it again and reading it I had this feeling of like oh this wasn't as compromised as I thought because I think Carter and I were felt a little bit like how we rained in some of the magic and we were saving some of the some of the fun for like if we got to series we wouldn't scare the folks at CBS who didn't love the magic stuff keep my this is 11 years ago this is before ghosts was a hit and all the Joe is right those are the guys Joe Joe is and congrats to them for the resurrected pilot with you.

That's a really cool achievement for all of you guys I'm really proud of all of you for achieving it's the impossible Lazarus like real awakening that's why this show see go to go spend go spend the money five dollars a month this is the moment to advertise it again go Andrew no but this you know it's it's uh I have someone turned into a frog that's not that's not down that I know well that's what I mean I was pleasantly surprised it didn't seem as sanded down as perhaps my like my memory had it and it felt like it really did know what it was and that was so nice to say

I don't want to I don't want to spoil this month but I will say like because when when you reach out to us and you said like and I don't know which version you got to hold up when you first read it but like you said like you know say you had us send a draft of and like I specifically the one that that I the first one I read was this one and it was this this draft specifically was it was dated you know whatever 2000 December 2015 for CBS it was like this was the

this is this is the New York mythological as the as the doors of the landing craft open and and the the beach at Normandy is there in the distance

and it really was like this is the freshest most like like just just Craig and Carter just like spilling our you know just

just doing whatever we want and I'm sure I haven't looked at further drafts but I'm sure further drafts

are just a a a sad Kafka-esque story of us just it's probably a little less weird and special it's probably a little less

weird and special but it was put through the blender and that's right it's put through the blender so what I guess you

Carter what you're saying is what we read was a version of what we read was our our magic the my man I think it was our

favorite version of it and then which is what we always want to do which is what was it getting worse and worse

with the draft but it'll get on the air and then if it's when it's on the air we can like like the most

insidious words in like the development world that writers use all the time that like stop yourself if

you ever find yourself using this is Trojan horse oh yeah that's like everyone uses that metaphor

it's like well just Trojan horse this stuff it like like the pilot won't be very good but but you know

there's all these ideas that'll come out in the second episode it's like no no it's yeah yeah yeah

there's no trojan horse having children together we'll fix this marriage

but again these are decisions that can only seem wrong in hindsight you can in the moment you

your job like when you're right is to get it on the air you yeah you're like I gotta remember it takes

to get it on the air and there is it's not absolutely insane to be like you know what once they

picked then we're casting and then we're shooting and then we can like do things that's not a

crazy thing to believe but it's just there's you know it's degrees right it's how much

you how far do you get like I said like keep a post it somewhere that is the kernel of what you

were intending to do just because you can forget it right you can like you know you have to see like oh

because you can wake up and go like oh fuck I totally forgot like yeah yeah

the series of logical steps that took you to it on your body like fucking

memento yeah one sentence why am I doing this why do I love this thing is yeah because you need

that especially if you get to series and it yeah I think a big theme of this whole conversation is

like when you can hold on to that thing it's better yeah when you can hold on to that thing it's

better yeah yeah but um but I do really think that whatever get you know could got read by

less and you know into whatever it sounds like you were just in a bad spot where you're trying to

sell someone on something that he just instinctively thinks is like nerdy and for the and for the

dorks and that's so not yeah he doesn't he's not watching Ghostbusters all he's not like yeah that's

just not his yeah every character had a beard too that was we we should probably should have we

should have just like the wind didn't need beer really yeah no it was you know it was there was

it's true you want you want it you want to believe you're at a place you want the sense you're

somewhere that wants the thing you're essentially doing it's it's like right it's like it's like it's

like it's like marry the person who really seems to like you right yeah you're not changing for too

much absolutely it's it's all those metaphors but I do think this this is one where I'm glad we will

be getting it out there because it's just you know just by the you know sometimes when you just

hear the pilot read by the end of it you're just like oh I feel like I know who all these people are

and I like them and I'm like excited to see more of them and I I you know it was able to like

have some feelings which is hard to get you know all the way there yeah yeah and it's so fun yeah

that's like you helped us put together a great cast yeah the cast brought in so many great young

people that we didn't necessarily know all of them and it was such a gift to hear that and at the end

of it they all felt they all seemed in that read so like alive and excited and into it and at the end

but I don't know if this will be I don't know if people would hear that in the way you're editing it

but at the end of it all of them said like why didn't this one go this was so fun they're like

these like they're especially the young actors you look like they have their 20s and they're like

wait this is good yeah well yeah in their minds like they were in call your congressman they were

in junior high when the show got passed on and now their adults and their 20s acting and they're

like this is a good one it's like fuck yeah and they still think it's like some sort of meritocracy

right they don't understand this is a completely random lottery that yeah I was honored by how

angry everyone was at the end and rightly so because it's just like it's just it's just like in the

pocket right it's just like sometimes it's just like okay this is like this is this is just

solid it all the pieces are there it could run for for years it's just like so I think it's like

thank you I'm hoping you know now that at least I feel like there's this sort of proof of concept

like this can happen right we've got this one shout out there and it's not and I always say it's not

why you know what we we talked earlier about like why I did it which was just sort of out of

a personal need for like some kind of closure it's not like you know Ben Blackron I don't do this

because we're like we're gonna get these back yeah we we're not doing it for that reason right

yeah it's the question when I tell people about it that I do this show their first question is

always have any of them been like see that's because we're all too addicted to outcomes and

they don't understand that's doing something that's outside of that idea yeah the exact opposite

of that idea it's the exact opposite of that yeah yeah yeah that there is a result it's kind of

cool like yeah I mean that is fucking cool I also think it's it's well deserved like that you

know that pilot that the Joe's wrote is another one I'm like it's just in the pocket it's a great

idea you get it right off the bat just from the you know it's like you know a vampire turns a mortal

into a vampire because they're so in love and now 500 years later they're so fucking sick of each other

and it's just like you're already it's just like that's very funny see and they did what we

couldn't which was get a supernatural comedy on CBS so they did one and now they have another one

I don't know whether where what who's who is it's been on that new one or who it's CBS it's CBS

see those guys carved their own path and then they're going into God bless them there's a different

head of CBS right there there's a different era but but it's that's well done all right Andrew

cutting in here to talk to you about membership I'm trying to think of what else I can say to convince

you you know I think the main reason to join I think it's just to be part of dead pilot society we

celebrate the uncelebrated if you've ever felt like the underdog felt that your work is

unappreciated we're here to strike a blow for you we're the only podcast that's about the real

experience of being a television writer because that experience isn't about having hit after hit

or getting show after show on the air if you're only listening to people in show business

who have something to promote that's on your TV and your movie theater you're not getting the full

story so I mean I think that's the main reason but there's also there's the hours and hours of

bonus content there's all the video of our table reads and there's the rewards there's the

enamel keychain and the and the dop kit do you play the trees to get dop kit whatever you say there's

one of those it goes all the way up to the cassette player max fund mix tape and you know there's

the satisfaction in knowing that you're not sending your money to some big corporation but to a

worker owned cooperative um we love doing the show we we love to know that you the audience value

it enough to become a member for as little as five dollars a month okay so please let's do this

let's go to maximum fund org slash join dead pilots all right back to my conversation with Carter

and Craig so now okay we gotta like um try to turn to another great pilot let's let's shift gears

and let's talk about gimme five um which I also just is so completely different and I just also just

love we love this one we really love this one this was this was combining a couple huge themes in

our lives one was being writers making a TV show it's about this is behind the scene show of an

80s sitcom the big the sort of big community conceit of it is like it's the feel good family sitcom

and everyone that's making that feel good fit families sitcom feels really fucking bad about life

in themselves it has lots of problems and it's just it was that day a little bit born of that quintuplets

experience that we had but but also just wanting to tell stories about something that we've been living

for you know a couple decades almost by that point and then there's this big element that was

there was in part drawn from my life of what is it like to be a comedy writer running and making

a comedy show that's supposed to make people laugh and have something really heavy and intense going

on in your life which I talked about a little bit the day we did the table read and then maybe

people heard that but my my son was born between year two and three of how much your mother

and he was born unbeknownst to us a complete shock didn't know till he was born that he had a

rare genetic syndrome he needed open heart surgery at two weeks old um he was you know when he

was pronounced as he's going to have lifelong health and developmental disabilities he's now 18

and doing great um but it was really hard um to be going in to write a comedy while living this

like dark medical drama I was in the nick you at children's hospital of Los Angeles and season three

was about to start of how I met your mother and I was just commuting between these two different

lives these two different tv shows and one of which was really dark and was the one I was actually

living in was not a tv show and uh it that with that always struck hard when I was a really interesting

like I would chill up to how I met your mother in season three and I was the shell of a person I

you know we were in this life or death struggle to keep our son alive and I would go in and

and it would go sit down in our office and we'd look at each other and we'd go now go be funny

and that's the title of the pilot that of can be five now go be funny because in the pilot

are give me five something like that not exactly that happens to the creator showrunner of the

cheesy 80 sitcom called give me five the show's gonna show and it was really great and he again

healing to use that word when it was healing just to write that so there was I was aware there

would be value to writing that one for me at least right even if it didn't go anywhere which

it very much did not it didn't even get we didn't sell the script we didn't get a bite we didn't

get a nibble we didn't get an offer we got one half-hearted meeting with Amazon as I recall

Carter and nothing else yeah it was this weird period piece 80s like dark dramedy and it's about

the end of the industry which they know which people also say it's like it's yeah right everyone

likes to say no one likes inside baseball industry shows until one works and goes right now it's

all the amies and now the studio was every Emmy yeah from Dick Van Dyke to 30 rock to the studio it's

like I can we stop saying this bullshit thing that inside baseball doesn't work when inside

baseball is done well it works fucking great yeah it's one of the most consistently success it's

crazy that people still say that but yeah it was it was really great for me and I flash way

forward I just recently published my debut novel that when I look back at it give me five really

was the beginning of me trying to write a little bit about Hollywood mixed with special needs

parenthood and then many many years later I've written something completely different but that is

working with those two worlds in the tug of war between Hollywood and special needs parented that

is very much what my novel is too although completely different so it's just these are things right

we write what we're working on we write what we're living we write what we're trying to work out

and that is of course the inherent value whether or not it sells or goes anywhere like we're trying

to make sense of the world by writing that's who we are and that is that's why it's not a failure

but I was fucking I was pretty fucking sad this one I didn't get it's definitely not a failure it's

and and and I correct I think Craig said it beautifully and that that is like the I'll just add like

the one other element of this that that that I really that that I really enjoyed was that

and and this kind of speaks to sort of what's been going on with the industry the way

production is contracted and and and writers rooms have contracted and like the the existence of

the very existence of a writer's room became like a point of contention in the strike and like

I one of the things I I missed so much about being in a writer's room after we left

was the camaraderie and the the sense of being this link in a chain that has been past that like we

had on how many your mother we we had people writers on our staff who had worked for work on

Frazier which was created by guys who had worked on cheers which created by guys who had worked on

taxi you know going back to you know the Dick Van Dyke show or your show shows and it was such a

and and and I'm sure you've got 20 stories that sort of line up with this like there was such a joy

in like those nights when things would be going terribly and someone would tell some story about

something that happened on the set of family matters you know because like there's just this

institutional memory of just these legends this lore and like you know at this point everyone

knows about Mr. Belvedere sitting on his nuts I think I actually feel like 10 years ago maybe that

wasn't as as out there in in in the world but like there's so many little stories like that and what

what I would have loved for this show to be would be this sort of a way to like sort of gather them

all up and put them in a world show yeah all these great like you know the like can the floor be wet

can the floor be wet I mean I mean the file cards

is that the writer with the file card so they're stuck in me

I love it you know can the floor be wet you would say that all the time and how much mother

writer's room to fill people on who might I know it's this idea right this hacky journeyman

kind of willy loam in writer it comes into a room it just has a box of jokes and he's

a box of jokes a joke so he just has jokes he's trying to fit into any show what he says can the

floor be wet you know he's going to pitch a joke in his little box about someone taking a

fat fall and we that sort of thing we wanted to capture the kind of like the Arthur Miller willy

loam in he kind of asked that guy I know the journeyman just to gather all this up in like a

like a little museum of like here's all the funny things like the crazy shit that has happened in

writers rooms over the past and because these stairs spread from room to room because everyone

moves around and everyone's you know has heard it from and yeah yeah worked on a show called

Mr. Rhodes with a guy who had written on welcome back codder yeah yeah and and when I

I'm off the first show I wrote on was the showrunner caneston was a taxi writer and the other

guys had written on like pink lady and Jeff and like I will say um the other and the other thing

that that camaraderie like the other thing that is we're trying to capture in this pilot is that

place you can go where people else speak that language right Andrew where you can go and

tell stories like that and just be completely transported into a different zone and I think there's

all that this is the why workplace comedies work right you the creating that feeling of community

that can specifically only exist in certain workplaces and that's what this was is maybe a workplace

comedy about uh behind scenes of a TV show but what really got me in the table read I just

wanted to say this before I forgot is again to thank you Andrew because I was so moved by this

table read I really was near tears at the end of when we did this I thought Taryn playing that

the showrunner character and some ways was really you know kind of very much like me right it was

this guy that was going between a hot spot and everything you were going through by the way Taryn

who is married to Kobe Smolders so Taryn very much knew what I had gone through and was able to

really bring that I think it was performance in this table read and and and Kobe had gone through

helped challenges and scares during how much your mother and like we were all going through some

shit while making this fun TV show and trying to be all fun about it and and there's that that

notion of this world you get to escape into even the broken world of gimme five the writers

room the director the creators the crazy cast of that fake TV show in our pilot there's salvation

in the end because the showrunner guy Cliff gets to leave the hospital and come back to try to save

a rewrite that is completely floundering of a show that needs to shoot mere hours from now

and he gets and I was so reminded of that was why that was the thing we would have tattooed maybe

or I would have tattooed about that pilot of gimme five for me and I won't even speak for Carter

for me what it was was the heart of it was the the place you can escape to that's not a real world

but you can escape if your life is too real guess what you get to go into gimme five world and it's

the stupidest fucking show in the world it's a show about a rich guy that adopts five kids

various ethnicities literally goes to orphanage it says gimme five it's the stupidest fucking

thing in the world but god damn what would this guy cliff do if he couldn't leave the the

Nick you to go into the writers room to debate the fun at least a halfway funny joke and this

fucking saying that's how he's a human being that's how his human being and that's what how I

met your mother was to me at that time it was like I could leave life and death stakes and come

into a sitcom room and feel like it was life and death stakes to get a good blow for act two because

that's what we do that's what our brains do and that's a place you can go when you have nowhere

else to go and I that that in in this table read so I felt it so much in this table read that I

was really near tears watching that that ending it was it's moving which is crazy because it's

such a raunchy really takes you by surprise yeah just really have you you like I was very moved

too and part of you know it's like it's a well constructed in that way and then yeah that cast

was just like oh my god this whole I mean we got to work with so many people that we've

worked with in the past that we like Scott Foley star of the Goodwin games who was like such a

comedy sharpshooter like throughout that whole like I it made me it makes me like I he should be

doing nothing but comedy as far as I'm concerned and also playing bad guys because he's playing

so yeah exactly yeah anything right but he's god now kind of ends up having to be like oh I'm the

romantic guy in Tuscany winning over the you know like yeah which is great at but this you're like

oh my god this guy I know like he's so good yeah he's so dialed in on that yeah so fucking funny

as this unhinged characters absolutely malevolent Iago like character like I just wants to sabotage

everything and and he's so he's a fan christian entopolis oh my god christian entopolis like this it's

sort of like like just I want to see those three yeah in a show together yeah the friendship between

those two the character of the Dave the director and and Cliff just reminding you so much

Dave is not Carter and I'm not exactly Cliff certainly Carter's not Dave driving

to the floor we know I wish but the role the role that Dave plays in that story the what he does

for Cliff just being the guy who actually does go to the hospital yeah like there's this moment where

he says I never you know I have a whole conversation about everything that's been going on and he

says to Cliff Dave says to Cliff I never even asked his name the baby the baby boy Cliff says Oliver

and I I really almost started to cry I even even talking about right now I forgot about that

moment yeah and and it was just like having like that you know Carter was you were so there for me

Carter through all of that stuff and just be being like we had so many problems this of it so much

stupid shit to talk about but every once in a while like that you just get that moment and you

realize that Cliff and Dave's relationship is actually gonna Dave is an absurd human being an absurd

character he drives a Ferrari where the license plate says syndicate with an eight at the end

he's so fucking stupid he plays saxophone on his roof because to have a dramatic 80s moment he's

absurd human being god damn it he is there for Cliff in some way the cliff really needs and I was

reminded that that's what that show is yeah to Craig's point I feel like so much of that feeling

of like these damaged broken people who you know are are are 90% awful but 10% just so there for

each other I mean that's that's right out of Larry Sanders and that's I think that's what Peter

brought to it and that's why I wish that I mean I yeah I this the other like tragedy of the show

not going is that I wish we could have kept working with Peter because he's such a hilarious guy

and how did that just to take a little seat he had a deal he had a deal at Sony too and so you know

Sony just like they were kind of matchmaking that's a little bit like well you know I think or

maybe we asked works we knew he had done Larry Sanders we loved it I think we said they could

we ever kind of co-do this with him a little bit so we kind of brought brought him into it and he

he was just like very yes and he was like I love this yeah I'm not going to try to change anything

I'll just pitch you funny things you can take him or leave him and he was just a delight and I

I like Carter said I felt I feel robbed of the part where we got to see how his brain worked a

little more we only got to know him a little bit kind of working a little bit on that script but uh

he would have I wanted to hear all the Larry Sanders stories because that certainly was our target

Larry's incredible yeah the most incredible stories I'm working on him to get one of his dead pilots

because you know probably oh that'd be great and I just want to talk to him like Larry's and now

was like yeah I mean that show I remember Ted and I tried to write a spec and we just couldn't do it

it was just like it was too good like I we just weren't at that point and I don't know

if even now like I just didn't have the skill to write something as good as that yeah well those

characters are like Shakespearean they were so like they were they were so multi-dimensional like

they came every episode there's a new like angle on Hank but you that you didn't see and I know

it's just amazing and I'm sure like yeah I'm sure he brought great writers room stories

oh yeah it's just like so that you know it's I mean in all honesty I can understand more why

give me five doesn't get like on on the yeah it's like yeah well that's then too especially right

it would it would probably again stand a better chance now yeah there there just be more there's

more of a sense like you can make weird stuff and find some kind of audience and that might be

enough people now right because there aren't huge hits and maybe in this new Nisha Fied world

it would have a life I'd love for this one to come back right I know I know it's just like 10 years

ago it was not happening in the nostalgia now now that these writers rooms you know show like 30

rock or whatever where like these rooms just don't exist in the same way I mean I guess they do

on SNL but like which is more what 30 rock is doing but but you're right that as this becomes more

of a thing of of the past it's even yeah like it is it's more it's a mad man ask it's more yeah I

honestly like the thing that I was looking forward to if the show had gone and and I Craig I think

we talked about this like I wanted to just like put together first of all like get a get a get a

staff of guys in their 70s like I would have like how like get get like a different strokes writer

on the show I was literally staff them and and like just just try and just reach out to these people

and say like look let's go get a table at Langer's and sit around and have lunch and just tell me

every ridiculous story because you know that those stories are you know there's stuff we haven't

heard and like I don't know you just we would have like such a wonderful thing to dive into we would

have searched the globe over to find somebody who'd really been there and Mr. Belvedere sat on his

nose we will just talk to the paramedic yeah I need to check my dates because I kind of feel like

and maybe this isn't possible like I feel like when I was writing on that first show that Mr.

Belvedere was like shooting at another stage on Sunset Gower like I feel like maybe like I try

but just like just long enough to overlap with you yeah yeah and I first heard that story I feel

like I heard it as like this head just happened now I could be wrong it may not be everyone likes

to say they were there yeah it doesn't mean you really weren't but that show that first show which

was like that was the filthiest room probably I was ever in because it's the same thing you're

you're writing the most saccharine like family family thing and and you know so everyone just has

to let off steam we're just so sickened by what we're writing that it was just like it what you

portrayed in that was exactly what that room is you've got little kids on the show and so we're

pitching like you know whatever I don't like the taste of chloroform it makes my

whole funny and like all right they're just like they're just horrible it's horrible and it's

what a nip but it's what enables you to write absolute like drape like that like you like you write

it's just it's a room full of people it's like a psychological experiment yeah you're you're

witnessing the mental breakdown that happens when you're forced to write something that is

definitely not who you are and they know they're constructing this absolute false thing but

so they have to somehow make it a little bit funny right they want it to be like just a little

bit funny but nothing that actually makes them laugh is a thing they could put in the script it's

just yeah yeah you need something that has the rhythm of a joke but doesn't actually confuse the

like you know the results that a joke yes yes and just how you guys went for it that release at

the end where this you know this terrible thing he's going through yeah just to to come into that room

and just pitch out the most offensive it's the aristocrats yeah a redeemable thing and yet that's

what's that's what he needs and it's yeah it's healing it's it's watching someone heal it's

watching someone come back to live I think that's in the action line too it's like we're in the

scene we're watching this guy come back to life this guy who walks in a action but blood returns

to him and as he pitches the most disgusting fucked up pretend to pitch it's never going to go in

there's never going to go in and that if if read into like the record in a courtroom would just

hit me in jail yeah yeah right so you you can't explain why this might ever be appropriate

yeah but it's it's the jokes we make with our best friends and you know the best friends know

you're not evil so you feel safe to say it and sometimes you just need especially at hard moments

you need to be able to say this stupid shit on the world yeah yeah I got I got divorced over

the course of you know friends there's a terribly dark time and it was but it was so helpful

that I had to show up at work every day and that now go be funny and it just it gets you like

past it quicker because yes you have to you can just sit there moping in the room and also people

are saying really hilarious shit and yes are laughing out loud with it's something to live for

is that you're around all these funny people and that's the thing it's like that's what a writer's

room is that it's best right you're around all of these people and you feel it's not always that way

it's often not but at its best it's this place where you're like you know is this is this heaven

ray no it's Iowa you know it's like field of dreams you're just there are moments where you're like

fuck I am fucking lucky that I get to do this I it it just just talking about this makes me so

glad that we wrote this pilot like I feel like because you know Craig and I have not really worked

in a writer's room in 10 years now yeah it's in a while and like I I don't know I feel like

for better words this is a document of it really feels like what it's like like I honestly like

it really does more than almost anything I've ever I mean I think I said this to you before but it's

just like you know what you know I love 30 rock and I recognized you know Robert Karlock was on

friends and then he went and created 30 rock and he brought so many stories from the friends writers

room onto that show so I would watch it always doing the thing where we

and and that you know captured it pretty well but not quite to the same extent as this like

this was like wow this is actually really what it's like the person who's explaining why the

joke is funny yeah see I'm ready related to that because this is something that's hard to explain

to people but it's a very specific character that I think we've all encountered which is the

crash comedy the comedy writer who's not funny at all right but but we'll scientifically explain

you why something's funny and is just trying to conjure it logic their way into something that

that is comedy like but not quite comedy we've and and some of those people have really some

long successful careers yes it's reliable to hit a single you know we'll always hit a single

we'll get on baby something that will probably work and and also the and the floor be wet it's not

yeah yeah and the bright and the showrunner you know or you know the person who's who's put in charge

of the room where the whole room goes oh no oh no like everyone worked for that guy that's

certain years oh yes like people know who I'm who I'm thinking of it my personal like we're

just like oh god oh god I don't we know this is gonna this is gonna be fun the morning now

yeah this morning let's find out who it is I think you might know but yeah so all of that is

just like I just love that you you didn't you didn't dumb it down or whatever you'd call it like

you just really laid it out exactly this is how it is and it's just it's such a service kind of

and I think people would be interested because people are interested in how this works and yeah

no it's not like the dick band like you know portrayal it yeah the the other thing I I really

enjoy and especially like now with some distance and looking back and and you know there's the

central irony of like there's an actual life and death situation going on outside of the writer's room

and yet you know the the guy from the writer's room calls because like this is really important that

we that we you know we come up with a scene we're in emergency but it's just like like so much

so much of like like the notes you get it's always about the stakes what are the stakes and it's

just so funny because like my memory of writing writing for TV for every show it's just the

stakes are just so they feel so through the roof on this thing it's just like we're pointing on a

show we're just doing it it's just we're just doing a dumb sitcom we're just making some people laugh

but like it is so like the the intensity of how like this bombs we're dead you know like and it's

it's insane but also I don't know if you can make good work without it you know to believe it's

that important like that emergency thing it came directly from my life as you remember because I

remember Carter I would call up Rebecca my wife sometimes in season three or four of how much

mother but she was like home with our with our child who is you know had all it was recuperating

from his chest having been cut open and having you know these four different heart defects life

threatening fixed and I would call up and be like I'm going to be late we got a real emergency

happening here at on the screen my wife after really that's the word can we can we retire that word

can we not frame it as a fucking emergency yeah that's fair that's fair that's fair you're

probably you sort of need to believe at the same time I think you do kind of need to view it that

way and maybe I needed to view it that way because this was an emergency I could solve I could

probably make at three better by by the time we shot but I couldn't you know like magically make

my son not have this rare syndrome and you know it it maybe you need to think of it that way I don't

do think you do I think the shows that are good have the staffs that think of it that way you know

that it's just like if this if we don't have a great blow to this scene like everything the world

terrible like yeah yeah the amount of time we would spend on like a blow to a scene because it

just felt like going out on a tepid laugh was just like the worst thing especially in an audience

show like friends like I mean I I can feel you guys working really hard on when I watch a show to

make sure it's great and it is it's friends as a fucking great show you did great work on that

show and I can hear the two in the morning like you wait you I can hear that it took to

you answer because we had that that feeling there's enough of us there that you know everyone in

the room there certainly over the years people in the room they're just like can we just go home

is this like no the people really like yeah like no we can't like no you know you need to be a little

insane yeah but I also when you're talking about your wife I do love that moment when she does

you know say like you have to go to work because yeah and it's not a cost too much money

perfect life but she's just so practical and it's yeah yeah we need a lot of money to make this

kid have a you know have any kind of you're the one who can provide that so it was just felt

really real like moving but just actually felt real no good I'm so glad yeah I mean that

definitely is also a little bit from real life for my wife and there was this strange division

of labor that had to happen it was just like you've got to keep the show ahead it's really

expensive to have a kid with lifelong medical problems and intellectual disability and again my

son is doing great and he's doing things I never could have dreamed he's this amazing drummer he's

that he's just doing all these cool shit but at the time and but he will be need a lot of money

a lot of lifelong support he will be all of these things are true at the same time and when you

have a newborn baby it's just such a mystery and just I love that starting point for a series of

just like you you to be all car was just talking about stakes that was the stakes of let that

show is going to be it's like you need it costs a lot of money to have a child with a disability

it just does yeah and you got to go write jokes to make that money yeah this thing that was fun

is now like really you got to go down there and really got to make it work and I definitely felt

some of that at that time and it's also such an amazing way like how could you ever get a show

how could you ever do a show about the realities of having a kid with those kind of special needs

through the process other than having that the rest of the show is this incredibly balls out like

you know filthy filthy writer's room comment so filthy and it's so hard to label you to tell the

real stories which yeah it's own if that was just what the show is about it's about a couple

and they have this thing and they're working for yeah you can't the no one wants to watch that show

it sounds like such a bummer yeah it's really dark and hard and we really we want it to be funny

we want it to be funny and it felt like a unique way to be able to talk about disability and it

really mattered to me to try to write about that because I never got to on how much a mother we

never figured out a way to really write about that this huge part of my life that was happening

concurrent to how much a mother the characters based on me and my wife and her mother had a baby

who was just this healthy easy baby and it was fun healthy easy baby stories and I was kind of

I always felt like oh yeah that's not actually the real part of it it all felt real till now

and so this was going to be a way to do that and again not a failure because it felt very healing

into right at the time and hearing it again hearing these wonderful actors and hear Scott Foley and

Christiane and topless and you know this amazing cast that did this table read everyone in that

cup just James Erbaniac doing James Erbaniac as what I mean a spot comedy writer a lot and that

was like fancy camera like I we've been fans of it like Henry fool there's like one of my favorite

movies like three years ago like it was so cool and Terran I just like I told Terran after this

table read that I was just like you so have drama chops too do you know what I mean he really

had to carry this emotional through line in that table read and I felt like I was watching a TV show

I felt like that's him he let's cast let's make this TV show Terran is fucking nailing this I

obviously no Terran's great and he's my friend but I I was just so wowed and I thought I felt that

he brought such caring like a tenderness to it because he knew me when I went through and he

told me he was like I was really honored to do it because I knew what you you know is there and

and it's just it was very healing to see wonderful actors bring that to life so thank you again

Andrew and where can we donate again work yeah that would be max or slash joint dead pilots

probably good place to to sort of wind things down you know so fun yeah man guys for yeah

for so long and I know you know you sifted through a bunch of choices before you

I mean I New York mythological I've been pursuing you guys for six years to do to do yeah I don't

know what took us so long I was wrong with that so I wish I know what were you waiting for I think

we had some idea that no that'll make it feel like it's really dead and maybe look at my life

I know I know I'm hoping that now this eternally yours thing like makes people realize like this

is not some official stamp that means it can like yes yes no the opposite it means the opposite

it's the opposite because otherwise what's what's happening with it it's very hard to like

you know get momentum back for something um but you know there's only so much you people

can get from seeing something on a page like you know hearing it is like it's not the final product

yeah even a radio play you're doing a radio play and by the way I love a good radio play

you're doing a radio play and that is more like what it was supposed to be and so you're you're

bringing it more into what it was meant to be so thank you for that yeah well this was just I'm

glad I I didn't give up and I'm glad we were I'm stupid enough to say no again yes it was so great

both of these are amazing so happy to have them out there and uh and you know thanks for

for for taking time and chat thank you thank you it's a delay it's fantastic we're really grateful

keep doing it yeah uh we will if with your support by going to maximumfund.org slash joint

there it is there it is one time well done all right I hope you enjoyed listening to that as

much as I enjoyed talking to those guys this is our second to last fun drive episode all that's left

is the reveal of the number one funniest opening in dead pilot society history hopefully you've

been enjoying that countdown hopefully you've enjoyed uh New York mythological and give me five

and these conversations with Carter and Craig and hopefully you've enjoyed many many episodes

previously of this show um you know I I'm running out of uh of ways to ask this but like I said

things have been a bit slow they've been a bit slow but here at the end I think we could pull this out

so please before you go on with your day go to maximumfund.org slash joint dead pilots if you value

the service we provide for less than a California gown of gas look you can pay up front for a year

or you can pay monthly whatever you want to do but please go to maximumfund.org slash joint

or slash joint dead pilots dead pilot society is produced by me and my co-producer Ben Blacker

and our associate producer Britt Robo Show on behalf of the three of us this small but mighty crew

I ask once again that you please become a member by going to you can say it with me right I've

said enough times you can say it with me by going to maximumfund.org slash joint dead pilots

all right you'll hear from me tomorrow with our number one pilot opening until then I'm Andrew

thanks for listening