Episode 342

0:00Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised Shit happened it shouldn't happen and anyway, um, I just wanted to be known that I didn't kill John Welcome to season 13 episode 342 of Sword and Scale Show that reveals that the worst monsters are real Let's talk about something most people don't think about until it's too late If you drink even occasionally, you already know how unpredictable the next morning can be

1:05Sometimes you're fine Sometimes you're not That's where Lecure comes in Lecure makes gummies designed to help prevent hangovers by supporting your body while it processes alcohol The formula is built around DHM, a compound derived from the Hovenia Dolchis tree That helps break down acetaldehyde The toxic byproduct responsible for a lot of hangover symptoms They also include milk thistle and prickly pear for liver support B vitamins and electrolytes to help with dehydration and energy loss And ginger root to reduce nausea It's not about masking symptoms It's about helping your body recover faster They're easy to take portable and practical Whether you're out for the night or having drinks at home

2:06One customer summed it up perfectly I woke up feeling like I hadn't drank the night before I've arranged the highest discount they offer 20% off Go to Lecure.com That's l-i-q-u-r-e.com And use promo code s-w-o-r-d at checkout In the early hours of May 18th, 2017, in Parma Heights, Ohio A working class suburb 20 miles south of Cleveland Which sounds like a lovely place I might add Like the rest of the state Pearl Road cuts through the town and a long stretch of strip plazas and small storefronts

3:06Haresalons, nail studios, pizza shops You know the kind of useless strip ball that inhabits pretty much every city in America While those shops are usually owned by locals in these businesses Open early close late and know their regulars by name The strip is dark and small shops are locked up for the night The early morning is calm except for one thing A burglar is ready to do his thing He grabs a landscaping stone, hauls it up and hurls it at the front door of classic hair studio The glass explodes, the stone breaking apart in the chucks across the floor He doesn't hesitate, he ducks inside head straight for the counter And he yanks the entire cash register loose The drawer jerks free Cords snapping And he's out in seconds Inside the cash register, he finds almost $300 in cash

4:09And the machine itself is probably worth a couple hundred more Where's your emergency? Hi, it's in Parma Heights, I'm not going to say it's an emergency But I was driving to work and I noticed that the door on a beauty shop is totally smashed On pro road The address is 6412 It's called classic studio And their front doors is totally smashed I mean anybody can go inside at this point Okay And I noticed it and I turned around and went back thinking Did I really see that and sure enough I did so Okay, we thought I'd report it A few doors down, he does it again Another front door smashed this time at the nail studio Instead of taking the whole register, he opens the drawer This one has $50 inside But it doesn't matter Any amount of money is worth it He's desperate The glass crunches under his boots as he walks away

5:12Leaving two shops and ruins behind him And I'm the store manager here at Discount Truck Mark Right next to us, there is a, it's $64.88 Your code There's the spot in the old place right next to the drug mark here You know, I'm in charge of There's the glass is broken out on the front door here At the nail and spa place Right, I believe we just cleared there Oh, okay, I'm sorry I just, I didn't know if anyone was out or anything $64.12, I believe the address is Um, must have $64.88 on the door here Okay, then that's a different one Oh, okay It's called spa in nails By sunrise, both storefronts are cordoned off with yellow tape Patrol officers sweep glass into piles while the owners pull up the surveillance video A white male Short with a bald spot and tattoos on his arms The time stamp on the camera is wrong but they already know the crimes happened overnight

6:17The owners are terrified and one vows to shut down the business She wonders how this could happen in such a family friendly town Parma Heights has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation At least that's what the statistics say Whoever the perpetrator is he probably should have worn a mask His face is front and center on the surveillance camera Not only that the outside cameras catch him speeding off in a white Jeep It doesn't take long to bring in Thomas Nuff For questioning Okay, all right, get me to deal with Parma Heights is here to speak with you No Well, I had a couple breakings in my city at a spa nails and then another Classic hair studios, you know anything about them No Nothing at all. All right. Why I got surveillance video of the vehicle and the person breaking into their business Okay, so let me pull this stuff up here recognize that person Looks like it could be me

7:17All right, so let's do this Recognize them tattoos Ha Yeah, do you remember doing this or no Tom seem like your average guy next door He just didn't have that typical criminal look about him If they're even is such a thing He looked more like a dad sitting on the bleachers of his son's football game And Thomas didn't have a son A good kid who unfortunately had to be raised by Tom's sister during the last 15 years He was in prison for aggravated robbery So looks can be deceiving That's what they say anyway You're running if you take the cash register from the one place is the cash from the second place, okay? Um, and then you're in a white Jeep that looks like a blowing to your your son, but registered to your sister maybe okay this Okay, but I'm more more recent photo of the Of you this

8:17What the hell happened to it Yeah Smash the window. Did you do that or Yeah, okay, what happened. I mean Just went off road It was the truth branch. Did you mean to go off road? It was a kind of yeah, okay try to hurt yourself or what no just Just uh Went off with Off road in a spot where we used to go off road. Okay, so we're just gonna go out there and like my heart what? No, no I mean, I appreciate you being honest Tom tried to be a good dad Well, maybe not But he really did love his son And old habits die hard That included going on benders robbing businesses and off roading This time it just happened to be that he had no vehicle. So He took his son's Jeep And damaged it how messed up for you during this time I don't know sir. Okay, all right

9:18By what there's you know what unfortunately you don't do to this and the video and stuff like I have you and then uh How it got to you is we actually uh The news kind of hold it because I put some on our Facebook page And then your sister did actually want to call and said hey listen That's my brother in my car you know me so kind of let us see you But I had some previous things to let you look like you had a history of bronzewick Bronzewick immediately called me says hey listen. I know that guy You might you might want to give me call everything he did is what he used to do and uh thanks to deal with you a lot, huh? So um what happened with you were you were in jail for a little bit you get out and what happened? I just I don't know man. I just Got out of them Things weren't like it. I thought it was gonna be you know. I had nowhere to go. Okay. No family was helping here or what? My mom passed you know like a lot had changed in the 15 years. He was on the inside Y'all seen Shasha, right? Think about how smartphones didn't even exist in 2002

10:18Everybody was still using a flip phone There was no social media at least not like today Facebook launched in 2004 YouTube in 2005 and Twitter in 2006 Instagram came around in 2010 and uh, I won't even mention TikTok In 2002 when he went into prison People were still using aol instant messenger and my space wasn't even a thing yet If you wanted to go somewhere you couldn't just tap on your phone and have directions show up or even read out to you You had to Print something out from a site called mapquest. I shit you not on your ink jet printer and hope that the directions We're accurate Kids nowadays can't even figure out what gender they are. Could you imagine if you took GPS away from them If Tom repeated as little heist today, he'd be lucky to find one dollar in the cash register People don't even use cash anymore

11:19Just their clarina debit cards which they have no intention of ever paying back Another big difference since 2002 is that we weren't all spying on each other No one was lurking nearby to film you on their phone Waiting to post it somewhere for the world to see Security cameras existed, but we're reserved for big businesses No wonder Tom didn't wear a mask Not only was he too shit-faced to even think about a security camera But he just wasn't expecting these tiny businesses to own one In 2002 voicemail was still a thing and people actually checked it Tom felt like he'd been swallowed up by time, but it wasn't just the tech that had left him behind While he was on the inside his world fell apart His mom died. She was the family anchor There were some rough years between him and a stepdad, but His mom was always there for the kids Probably almost too much

12:20My mom struggled for the last That three or four years before she passed Trying to keep the house afloat and still help my sister with bills and with her kids And as soon as my mom dies You know, I told my sister we'll here take my money And Paid a bank note off on look bar one money guessing keep the house Over the corner husband they allowed it to go into such disrepair that she didn't want to talk with it And so she let the bank have it and uh Yeah, I told her I said you know, I feel like you you know, sit on their graves You know, I mean you should have let him you should have let the bank have it four years ago And instead of looking them out and roll the stress she then trying to She was the only one that ever had a solid career and I'm working a steady work You know, I mean with good money, so you know, she's paying like everybody's cell phone bill everybody's bill Baby said a certain 80's since you and you since you got a good relationship or no His sister took over the money and according to Tom, she

13:21mismanaged it She also failed to get the car Tom had wrecked from the impound because it was too much trouble Tom was pissed because the car belonged to his son Tommy and still had some of his personal belongings in it According to Tom his sister helped raise Tommy and had been a good influence, but Ever since their mother passed she was all about herself His sister of course had a different story There was a time when they partied together as teens and acted more like friends than siblings, but Then Tom got a girl pregnant when he was 19 And things changed This sister had lost a baby boy and now she found herself stepping in to parent Tom's son Tom continued to party and went to rehab at least once It was like usually every time he went to rehab this stuff would come out missy gets everything Well missy has a job missy went to school. I paid for it He always I guess felt like

14:23I got everything but in reality My grandparents were draining their bank account for him And our whole life revolved around And then what was going on But he always and he still will And recently when my mom died he wrote Tommy letters the same old stuff like missy got this and His sister missy remembered that their mother practically enabled him I chose always our farm. No And even if he stole from her could still come home I don't remember backward. I think I told you when I found out when she died that she had all these Check cashing was and stuff and I found all the receipts Commissary and adventure and to people like Latasha, McLeishan And so my brothers grow out you know and agron and youngstown and you know wherever

15:24And it was always well he needs Hygiene products. It's like he doesn't need three hundred dollars We've all experienced someone in the family like this, right It always seems like the one who gets in trouble the most or as the least productive gets all the attention Doesn't it? Yeah, fuck the productive one who pays his bills and Minds his own business Let's focus all of our baby bird attention on this idiot over here that can't get their shit together Tom was about 25 when he went to prison and now he was 42 With no home to go back to no mommy to run to and a son who was almost an adult now Ready to live his own life He had a lot to figure out and even more to make up for And yet Here he was back at the police station Since he got out he'd been looking for a place to stay, but his parole had restrictions No guns no drugs on and on

16:25His anxiety was increasing in the previous night's drunken binge was going to land him in jail again Things we're about to get worse. I don't see your son wanted to be bashful against you at all You know, I mean, I think you just want to stay it around You know, I mean, unfortunately like I said, I mean this mom was letting me stay there And until I got a place and that didn't work out for a girl and Then she kind of wanted to start a relationship again and then when I didn't because I had a girlfriend She kind of flipped on me. Okay, and then like I said my sister, you know, she and her just we said girlfriend a girl We were looking for that was missing Oh, I don't know. You don't remember anywhere. Do you know where she's at by any chance? Just a old friend of mine. Okay, I've still never heard any contact if anything works you could be I don't know she was like when I was writing her from jail. Okay We lost contact was she stayed in touch with my mom. Okay, so when my mom died

17:27She kind of come back in a picture than her mom died Then she took off the taxi and came back and her and her friend actually picked me up from jail. Okay But who was it who was her friend that came with you a whole small guy John John man Yeah, in that clip they were talking about the mother of Tom's son When he got out of prison. He was hoping to stay at her house, but That didn't work out because she wanted to rekindle the relationship And he had long since moved on with two different women 49-year-old Regina Capo Bianco was one of them About 15 years earlier she had signed up for a prison penpal program Where she met Tom Yeah, she was one of those weirdos They constantly rode each other and promised they would meet up once he was out The problem for Tom at least was that he was looking for stability And before he even got out he started to see that She had issues. I wonder how he found out

18:28Could it have been maybe the fact she was writing inmates Maybe that was it their Tom Maybe that was the whole problem Anyway, Regina had been living at home with her mother But at some point in their friendship her mother also tied leaving her without a home Her life took a downward turn into alcoholism This was the last thing Tom needed and besides He had already started seeing someone else These inmates can really pull some pus if you know what I mean When Tom was released Regina was living with a partner An older man named John Mann This was a quid pro quo situation if you know what that means A friends with benefits sort of relationship Where she would help take care of him in his house and exchange for you know a place to stay She was a house whore basically Regina and John had generously offered to let Tom stay there too Until he got on his feet

19:29But Tom could already see the writing on the wall and New this would be the worst environment possible for him It was true that he accepted Regina and John's offer to pick him up from prison upon his release But he told him he planned to find his own lodging The last he'd heard of Regina She was about to celebrate her 50th birthday I'm one one what's the address of the emergency So we have a neighbor across the street and they just got home And there's a lady that's like on the ground and can't get up and they're like hovering over her So in the front yard in the front yard. Yeah. She's an older lady in her 50s with dark go brown hair Wait, you know, they're picking her up and carrying her into the room into her white female Wife female She can barely stand up so they're walking her and carrying her Now it's one thing to get a little carried away or your 50th birthday But when was the last time your neighbors called 911 on you Because you were passed out in your yard

20:31And I hope you weren't in your 50s Tom remembered warning Regina to get up that day But when she wasn't able to he and John literally had to drag her into the house All right, if you get birthday she got trashed and was puking up her fake teeth and I'm like come on Regina I'm like And all lady and saw that and I told her to I'm like, please get up You know, you're laying in your puke. I'm like it's a nice area. So I was gonna call the police No sooner than I said the coming couple are there pops and yeah, so And it looked crazy like you got a older guy and you got this guy That's who's dragging this girl in the house. I mean, especially with after all that shit that happened in Cleveland With them girls being born for all that years. You don't know She's always been like that. She's a good heart good girl. Mm-hmm through writing like for as much as we wrote in prison

21:37Regina may have had a good heart, but she was a wild card Though he did stay at Regina and John's a couple of times since he got out He mostly bounced around hotels with his current girlfriend He was right to steer clear of Regina as much as possible The last thing he needed was to get roped into another bad situation But Tom the guy just trying to keep his head down and reconnect with his son Was about to be pulled into something A lot bigger than a stolen cash register and erect jeep Something that would change his life Forever You

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25:03A Cleveland suburb with a reputation for safety Not violent crime In the last few weeks, police responded to a string of late-night burglaries The suspect Thomas Nuff was quickly caught He admitted to everything saying he was broke and desperate Hotels were getting expensive Thomas just been released from prison after serving 15 years Since then he bounced between hotels, old girlfriends and temporary stays with people willing to help Including a penpal named Regina Capobianco She and her boyfriend even gave him a ride from prison He stayed at her place a couple of nights, but mostly kept his distance She had a good heart, but she was a little Unpredictable Then Regina stopped answering her phone Her sister worried I miss her every day I miss sending her pictures of the girls of my grandkids and calling her

26:07That was all taken from me and for if we can't do that anymore I call Regina Reggie Reggie had a contagious laugh If you would ask anybody what they remember about Reggie, it will be her laugh The police had been to her house already, but they didn't execute a full search Neighbors had seen stickers on the door about a potential foreclosure and just assumed John was evicted Now weeks had passed, they go back And what they find inside is worse than anything anyone's imagined What they walk into is a hoarder's nightmare Trashbags boxes rotting food The air is thick and sour The kind of stench you think is garbage until you realize It's not Specialized agents are called in along with cadaver dogs But even the dogs refuse to go inside

27:10But the odor of decomposition is Overwhelming They stubbornly sit outside like No way man, I ain't going in there We ain't touching this That's kind of what I imagine dogs sound like You can get another head Yo bro, we ain't going in there That's all I'm saying dog The search stops here I think it's kind of cute Imagine a doberman talking like that Anyway Fortunately agents Come prepared with full protective masks and oxygen tanks This is a full hazmat situation we got going on They enter through the back door of the ranch home past the shattered window Dead flies carpet the floor The second bedroom is by far the worst Fly swarm in the air The stench pools in the room maggots wriggle in a disgusting puddle at the foot of the bed A puddle they trace to a mound of trash and blankets

28:13When they start to move it They see skin Then bone Then What looks like a leg Then a skull The hallway carpet has been cut away and blood stains Stretch from the kitchen into the living room Where the carpet has also been removed Under trash and clothing in the second bedroom They find John Mann's body A mire of decomposed rotting flesh Unrecognizable And behind him Up against the wall they find a second figure wrapped in a wet Harley Davidson blanket The blanket is form fitting They can see the outline of Regina's head before it's even pulled back She's face up Sweater rolled up above her eyes One foot exposed and the rest of her body hidden beneath layers of filth A purple condom wrapper is found near her head

29:15At first Tom wasn't the obvious suspect Even though he had a criminal background His crimes didn't involve violence against anyone And he had a son he desperately wanted to reconnect with Why would he risk throwing that all away He already messed up by getting stupid drunken breaking into the salons Stupid and sloppy but Not murder But because he was one of the only people who had a connection with both Regina and John They started to dig Where else had Tom been staying since he got out Who else was helping him And that's what his current girlfriend came up Alicia Stoner She wasn't just his girlfriend She was a social worker at the prison Imagine that

30:23Information today most of it Alicia was working at the same prison that Tom was serving time in Tom was attractive to her for some reason Probably for the same reason why some women Write to inmates Some particular crazy bitches take that extra step and get a job at the prison It's one hell of a world we're living it I'll tell you Maybe it was the bad boy prisoner thing maybe it was his Charming gift of gab who knows who cares Whatever the case he was writing to multiple women including Regina and they were all Falling for it With Alicia He had the added pleasure of interacting personally That is until she quit due to an obvious conflict of interest She chose Tom over her job And they continued the relationship Imagine choosing a criminal over your job

31:25These two lovebirds wrote poems to each other Long handwritten love letters They were soul mates When adictives interview to Alicia for the first time She didn't want to say much But after she realized that she could be implicated And ultimately serve time That's when she started to talk I just want to clarify some things that I wasn't direct with Okay, okay But maybe this dream of minimizing some of this so that it's Oh I did It was her issue I avoided I minimized I rationalized I did all the defense mechanism I know It just comes down to telling us the truth On paper Alicia didn't look like the kind of woman who'd ever Be connected to a double homicide She was a mental health worker And she was married But somehow she was charmed by this asshole After his release in April 2017 Alicia became more than just his girlfriend

32:26She was his driver His banker and his safety net When parole rules barged Tom from living with her She paid for his motel rooms When he needed money she wired it And when he called her in the middle of the night She came On May 12th 2017 Alicia drove to pick him up After he made a desperate phone call She remembered his left index finger was badly cut A fresh wound he couldn't easily explain When we discuss about initially me getting the phone call from Thomas And he called me and he did say to me Just by every meet you with health And I know he gave me This is where I'm going to tell you just Okay, I know he gave me directions At some point And here's what I see when I'm driving And I'm crossing over me under I'm on the phone with him And he tells me Regina and John are dead Okay, that helps far some

33:26memory of the conversation Then help him telling you when you got there Was there anything more than There's more Okay So it's accurate with him with the hood coming out And he gets in my car where I tell you And we park where I tell you And Just let me say this The story I was supposed to tell Was that he got into a bar fight for the finger Because he says to me all you all you know is that I got into a bar fight for the finger Okay, so that's what I want to do Tom's version started with his relationship with John He felt sorry for John because Regina was taking advantage of him What started as a partnership had turned into a one-way street that ended with Regina being the only happy partner She came and went as she pleased She took John's money and dead little in exchange She even started seeing other guys and bringing them back to the house So When I met John, you know He might've been dirtbagging a lot of things but I just took him as an old hippie nice guy

34:27He was gonna get kicked out of the house soon But he needed some of the motorgrass and First of all, you know, I want everybody to know that you know I've never had any such relationships with Regina We met in 2005 as pen pals and for about a year and a half we kind of were writing a lot and had Ideas of getting out me and together Of course, then I felt a lot different than I do now about what I wanted in life and a woman and She's always been super wild told me a lot of crazy stories. I never Realized of course. She's probably progressed and got worse. You know what I mean? So I never realized you know Like until her 50th birthday How she was drinking if he wasn't convinced at her 50th birthday party that she was an out of control Party or An incident that happened at a gas station Confirmed it She'd been drinking He says she came out of the restroom with toilet paper hanging out of her pants

35:28When he politely brought it to her attention. She says watch this And she pulls it out and plasters it on the chest of a little old lady who's walking to pie gross So We didn't talk for a while, you know a few weeks and I ended up on When I needed a place to stay and I knew that you know, they were still entertaining that idea when I was in jail So I called her up and she said well, you know, she was mad at me, but I said hey, you know, what are you mad for? You know, I mean the way you were at then and I can't have that Well, so I've met John a few times and he had confided in me That he kind of wanted her out But she told them like why get mailed here. So you got to pick me And then he was kind of like well, I've known her for a while. I kind of love her But at the same time he's like, you know, she don't suck my dip no more. She don't do this And for her, you know, she I'd seen her drunk like, you know, you can't get it hard right real nasty You know, it means I'm like I feel bad for him, you know

36:30He felt bad for John. So he started coaching him on how he could get rid of Regina by a victinger It would be a bonus that he'd get to live there with John In effect, he planned a replace Regina Tom said he didn't have much, but he would help him in any way he could Just not sexually John wasn't getting that anyway I ended up, you know, taking some of my stuff there because You know, she didn't know at the time, but John was gonna try to so after the 15th birthday, he took some stuff there Mm-hmm. Okay. Sorry So I took my blue bed and they had my clothes in it. Okay, and I had it like a duffel bag They had like my little homemade tattoo sheet and it moved brown tan back And you know, I wasn't like move trying to like Move in or nothing yet. So I didn't know what the status was gonna be as far as John getting her out of the house I kind of was like I'm not gonna Light you I said, you know, I can get you good bud I'll keep you smoking. I'll give you 50 bucks a week, but I can't live here with her

37:30And another reason why I really blame myself is just for entertaining the idea and telling him that about the stuff about being elderly and being able to Victor that that's why I guess why she bugged the fuck out, you know what I mean? And You know, I hear them outside yelling and arguing and the dogs are barking and the little you know, they're loud And I'm like I could hear it outside So the day this all went down John had confronted Regina She laughed it off and said she was gonna go out and meet a guy at a bar And they might come back to the house While she was out John had fallen asleep. So she texted Tom asking him to put the dogs away because She was bringing this guy back Tom didn't want to be around for that. So he says he left Well, I just chose to leave, you know, I took a walk in the neighborhood We decided to want to be there listening to him as sets whatever was going on well I had come home and whoever the guy she had there was gone in her job and we're partying and she's drunk

38:32I mean probably didn't take her much to get drunk anyway. She's such a little person, you know, I mean And they're fighting and I'm outside in the backyard dogs are going crazy. I'm surprised nobody called it police, you know And something just changed in the tone And I come in, you know, I mean, I died. I didn't come in. I really thought I didn't want to interrupt No, I didn't know what was said and I came in and Regina was attacking him with a knife And I stopped her um, I actually got pictures It took me it believe me as little she is she was pretty strong, you know, I mean hand I had a little mark here where I had a little comic night out bunch of cuts on my hands trying to pull the blade from And that's actually how I ended up cutting my finger so bad This is when the lies started Every person he saw got a different explanation for why he got this cut on his finger From his own son to his ex at the house with his son To his girlfriend Alicia And finally to the police who interviewed him the night of the burglaries

39:36By that point his finger was barely hanging on after he tried to superglue it Gross But he knew it was bad because it was turning green and starting to smell funny You know what I mean? I know Shit happened. It shouldn't happen and anyway um I just want to be known that I didn't kill John The one part of the story that always stayed consistent was that he didn't kill John He freely admitted he killed Regina Just like he freely admitted several weeks later that he robbed the salons But he was adamant He didn't kill John And none of this shit was planned or premeditated or anything, but I ended up ripping the knife from Regina and I threw a pint of chair and she took off and I went night check John And he was still making sounds and on the floor And She ends up coming back with another knife and I don't know the regular steak knife Whatever from the kitchen and that's when she ended up, you know, stabbing at me and cut my finger real bad

40:41Again, I'm tussling with her and uh I get it to the ground and I'm trying to hold her down and you know, or other and she's clawing at my face and my eyes And I've had no given knife and using time, you know what I mean and I don't I'm having nightmares about it. You know, I mean so much the fucking live with you know and I wish I would have ran out of the house, you know, I mean because I got livid if she was a friend, you know, I mean and I mean, I'd be stupid to even tell my pro officer I'm about to stay here at this house Tom maintained he never met for any of this to happen He just wanted to get out of prison and start over be a good dad continue his relationship with Alicia Except she was still married And get back to what he loved to do tattoos of course But he also loved drinking and talking Those two traits somehow led to him committing crimes and Then involved the very people he loved most in the aftermath of those crimes

41:44Even his young son Tom's son thought he was helping his father But every time Tom took more The next morning, Tommy's phone is jeep And even his trust were gone When he did move there, he cut his finger open And he said it was from the hedgehog with my mom and my ampoule said it was too clean of a cut to be not a hedgehog But like hedge clippers and my mom and my ampoule said it was too clean of a cut They think it was from a knife or glass or something. What do you think? I'd like to believe him, but I don't know. I haven't seen a cut like that before. It was cut pretty bad Yeah, it was like hanging off and stuff Yeah, he said he was going to try to glue it back together But when he was in the hospital, they just took it off for him Tommy Jr would later learn the truth

42:45If he didn't already suspect it The story was shady So was his story about why he needed Tommy to buy him duct tape and garbage bags for the finger Poor Tommy Since his dad got out of prison, he was Invading all aspects of his life And Tommy let him because he loved him Yeah, since he's been out my it's my life's been so stressful Like I've been afraid at my house Why do I need you afraid? I don't know if like he got dropped off by someone and he owes them money And they're gonna like come inside or something. I don't know Okay, I just don't know like I thought I knew him a little bit, but I guess I didn't Okay Tommy had a right to be afraid His dad was a criminal murderer The only thing the police didn't know Was exactly why he murdered We think you know more time Someone's telling us that in that conversation things were brought up about what your dad did that were pretty serious And if he told you what he did then we need to know time

43:47He did tell me he heard two people Didn't say he would kill anybody he said he heard him now tell us what he told you He said that he heard him and He said he cut his finger on the hedge clippers and that he was trying to find him back and I was dead he told me that He took Regina They got her a hotel and then two black people came and we're beating them up and that he was trying to defend themselves Say that again when was this didn't give you any time frame on one this happened you said it happened late at night Late at night, they're sitting he was in the he said he was in the basement cleaning And uh, he heard John yelling and he went upstairs and he started like Trying to fight him with him and then they left and that's what a black males. He said to black man He didn't he didn't use those words to use the bit like The racist chance for them. Okay, and then he was fighting with these black males You said that's how he had a scratch on his head. He said that's how he got a scratch on his head was from them

44:47This was just one more version of Tom's lies And when he couldn't cover his tracks with his lies, he simply told Tommy not to look Like the time he asked Tommy to pick him up at John man's house This time it was to get rid of the dogs inside Went back to the house. He went and grabbed the dogs. I didn't see the dogs He told me not to look and we drove out there He had me pull around the side of the street and he shoest them out Yeah, he just told me they were John's dogs and that he didn't want him anymore That John was gonna hurt. I really Kill him and get rid of him So he was gonna give him a chance at life and just let him go The detectives didn't want to have to press Tommy They knew he was a good kid In fact one officer had also been Tommy's rugby coach and had nothing but great things to say about him Somebody did something right, but it sure wasn't his dad And the last thing I want to see is is anything and this isn't trying not trying to pit you against your dad But you're in this position sadly he put you in this position

45:50He did and it's sad and we feel for you. You know I do you know what I think of you And it's wrong But I just want the truth 100% and you walk out of here and you know you're conscious is clear If I tell you guys now tell us now and you're not in any trouble. He said he killed him Kilvigina job just Regina He said he was in the basement cleaning and he heard John upstairs screaming saw Regina stabbing him Tried to get in the knife away from him and then he said he took the knife and stabbed her Tommy's story matched the version his father gave police That Regina had attacked John That Tom wrestled the knife away and stabbed her There were no other people at the house that day Black white or otherwise If they could just get Tom to admit to killing both Regina and John It was their gut feeling and the coroner's reports backed it up

46:52John man's body was pierced with multiple sharp force injuries including To the neck ribs collarbone and defensive wounds on his hands and arms Regina stood under five feet tall and didn't way much Besides Tom's version was that he intervened after only one or two stavings Then there was the elaborate cover-up including commissioning a guy named Delugo to burn the house down after he'd removed the dogs and the carpeting He used Alicia for contact because he was already in jail Delugo said no, he wouldn't do it And the defensive wounds on Tom indicated a serious altercation where Tom lost control of the blade Not to mention the lies The overwhelming number of lies So detectives had one more card to play with Tom the polygraph And when the subject turned to John man

47:53Tom's story started to crack So It was May of 2017 and a suburb of good old Cleveland, Ohio, the home of the Browse, and a whole lot of killers, and even worse, Ohioans. Thomas Knuff had been out of prison for just a few weeks. He was drifting between motels, borrowing from his sons, and leaning on his girlfriend, Alicia Stoner, who drove him, gave him money, and even picked him up. The morning after he killed at least one person inside the

48:58house, Unnelwood Road. So yeah, you know, Tom was just living his best life. John Mann lived in that house with his partner Regina Capobianco. By then, Regina had long since given up her part of the bargain for living there, and was dating other men. She had also been writing to Tom while he was in prison. In fact, it was Regina and John who picked him up on the day he was released. Regina may have expected to carry on a relationship with Tom, but he already had Alicia, and he also realized that Regina's drinking and other bizarre behaviors could land him right back in prison on a parole violation. John was fed up with her too. He wanted her gone, and Tom was all too happy to help. If Regina were out of the picture, it meant Tom could move in and finally have a stable place to reconnect with his son and have a girlfriend. On the night of May 11, 2017, something violent happened inside that house. John and Regina were both killed.

50:04Their bodies hid in the way. Police wouldn't discover their decomposed remains until June. In the meantime, Tom was getting rid of evidence and roping his loved ones into helping him cover his tracks. He actually ended up doing were two vastly different things. By May 17, his life was spiraling. He was walking around with a finger that was barely hanging on, and his freedom was also barely hanging on. In the weeks that followed, Tom didn't lie low. He went right back to his old

51:05ways. He broke into two salons, leaving a trail that would put him back on police radar. At the same time, he told everyone a different story. He told his son, he told Alicia, he told the police, a story about a drug dealer, a fight. Regina stabbing John and Tom stabbing Regina in self-defense. But there was one part he never changed. He swore he didn't kill John Man. You know how you've heard that polygraphs are unreliable? Well, police departments across the country insist they yield a success rate of 86 to 100%. And Brunswick police were counting on its reliability.

52:07The people we found in the house. Okay. I told him the black people, and then when I ended up telling him the truth after the truck incident, I told him what it was, and I told him I was just embarrassed, because I had killed a girl, and that's when I told him the truth of the matter. No, I want to bring this thing back up in this machine, okay? It says you're being your failed. I'd say a day you'd stick up, all right? So I want to talk about some similarities in some stuff in the injuries of those. We'll talk about that later. Right. Um, let me talk about that. This is going to be exactly what I was told. Okay. All right? Yep. Okay. Regina stabbing in the back. Two stab wounds to the right side of the neck. Crushed Adam's apple. Right carotid artery was cut. Her left hand, your index finger, the webbing was cut. Caused it down through two defensive limbs. I know. I caused a sharp force injury in the Crushed Adam's apple, neck compression,

53:09strangulation. All of these injuries included or were in addition to the stabbings, and the polygraph had confirmation. Didn't you mention that, uh, you know, you know, several times that John was over there making her going was like getting stuff like that. Okay. This machine says that you had stabbed John. Yeah. Okay. Let me ask you something. John hit one stab on right here. Did you help him stop everything by doing that? Is it the one? Did you do one stab on in the John to help him out to put him on a measure? If you did, it's, you put him on a stab. Detectives kept giving Tom an out. They told him maybe it was an accident, an act of mercy, self-defense, and maybe things got out of control. Any of those versions could have given him a softer landing, even a shot at claiming self-defense. But Tom wouldn't take it. He stuck to his one line over and over.

54:10I didn't kill John. You've got to help yourself out of this. You've got to tell us what the hell happened in that house? You know, he, he brings up a good point. I'm going to let you explain and have to do about it. We think something happened in the argument. I'm going to let him go ahead with that. You know, brings up a good point as we talked. You don't like when they get beat up to you? Yeah. Tell me a little bit about your, your, your stepfather. Right? Right? Your mom? Yeah. Be used to relationship? Yeah. Something about that happened quite frequently? Well, when we were younger, you know. Where's your feelings on that? I just loved my mom and I hated him at the time. You know, even though there were times where he was a good guy and I liked him, you know, for certain things. He would drink and use drugs and you know, he took all his aggression on her and you know, she's just such always a good person and being a kid, you know, I really heard, you know, and to see her go back to him, you know.

55:14I don't think you feel it hurt me, you know, to make you angry. Well, sure. I mean, who wouldn't be angry? You know, I was angry that, you know, she put up with it, but I mean, obviously she felt that, you know, she loved them and worked through it, you know, and it separated for like a year and we got back together and what do you think should happen to somebody that beats their, their wife or their girlfriend? I mean, I don't feel like they should, you know, I mean, I could understand why some women do that, you know, because they feel like there's no other way out. Did you trip? Yeah, you know, I feel like, you know, women even deserve that to when a man does that, you know what I mean? They should be able to. So, so what was John doing in Virginia? What was John doing in Virginia? He wanted her out. What really happened? He wanted her out. He wanted her out. Was he here in there?

56:15I don't know. Was he here in Birmingham? I don't know. Did you see him? I've never seen him, but did she tell you he was here? No, she told me many stories about punching on the boyfriend, you know what I mean? She never said John heard her, you know, she said he was dirty and never changed his clothes and I think you know that he heard. I think she could fight any of you. And you're trying to protect her. And then she'd get angry with you for old as going on with your job. Is that what happened? Listen man, I get it. This was their best hypothesis. It was the only time they'd seen Tom get this emotional, other than when he was talking about a son. They had tapped into his past to find a trigger. John was abusing Regina. And Tom was going to stop him. But Regina was used to the chaos and abuse, so she tried to stop Tom.

57:30You're going to give a press conference Monday morning before your rainman or telling everybody you're here, you're being a rain. The news is going to be there. How's it going to be? I mean, did you sit in this chair with us? Did you talk to the tankers and you tell us everything that happened 100% to the team, which right now I don't believe. And your son is going to watch his news conference. You know what I mean? Your son is going to watch his news conference. Pretty soon, he may be watching it with you somewhere else because the trouble he's in. And the list shit as well. They're both in trouble right now with this. Too much is going on because you put them in this position. The only way for you to help them and not paint yourself as a monster. I mean, come on. I know that you love your kid and your kid does love you. Okay, he does. But he's going to get to live with this cloud of the media painted my father as a monster. People know that you're his father. Would you rather just have them him be known as it might might might might have been a mistake. He confessed up to it. He did

58:31he did. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. He did. Who he is. I still talk to my dad and jail. Do you want that? Or do you want everybody going? Look, your kids are monster. If Tom had accepted their version of what happened, what do you have gotten away with it? I mean, there was no way he wasn't going back to prison. He robbed two salons and killed a woman. These were indisputable facts. But was it chivalry gone way wrong? Or was it a premeditated attempt to secure a place of his own? It's possible no one will ever know, but the jury would seal his fate. No matter what, Tom would probably spend the rest of his life in jail. But Ohio also has the death penalty, which is a good thing, but they should use it a lot more. The relationship Tom wanted with his son was never going to happen, at least not outside of prison walls. Thomas E. Nuff Jr. was convicted of two counts of aggravated murder for killing John Man and Regina

59:36Capobiaco. Along with multiple other charges, aggravated burglary, gross abuse of a corpse, kidnapping, conspiracy, tampering with evidence, and theft related offenses. There was, of course, a jury recommendation that the sentence of death be imposed. The court finds, by proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the aggravating circumstances the offender was found guilty of committing outweigh the mitigating factors. Therefore, on count two, the sentence of death will be imposed upon the offender. This meant Tom's son lost a father.

1:00:41Because of Tom's actions, he would never get the chance to go to one of his kids' games and walk him out onto the field. But his son wasn't the only one who suffered. Two lives were lost. Regina may have been a bit of a wild card, but she mattered to her family, to her friends. She was a person. And no matter what her life choices, she didn't deserve what happened to her. This monster took my sister from me. My heart is broken. I don't know if I will ever repair. I miss her every day. She would not get to see her sons get married. She would not get call grandma. And it is all because of trying to help somebody that I told her that I thought

1:01:44she should stay away from. I have horrible visions that I hope someday will get out of my head of the murder. And no one should ever have to have these visions of a family member. I am glad he has the death penalty. I think he deserves the death penalty. He's had a chance to plead for his life. And I'm sure my sister pleaded for her life that he chose to ignore. John, man, son and sister both gave incredible heartfelt statements. And John's son spoke for more than 10 minutes. My dad was a goofy, bright and sensitive man. He loved the Cleveland Browns, watching mash reruns and doing community theater. He had a full scholarship offer from Heidelberg University of Astrophysics. He ended up floating into electrical contracting

1:02:45for his interest in solar power. He loved the idea of cheap renewable energy. He even studied to be an architect because he thought it would help him develop solar power cells. Later in life, he became a computer programmer. He truly had a gifted mind and could do just about whatever he wanted to with properly motivated. People tended to like my dad. He had a gregarious and colorful personality with an oddball sense of humor. You took my dad from me. You robbed him of the golden years of his life and the time we had together. I miss him terribly. He proceeded to lay out how Tom had failed as a man, as a human being, and as a father. He sympathized with Tom's son and thanked him for his bravery and enduring the trial and doing the right thing by testifying against his own father, whom he loved. But then he surprised everyone. You do not deserve to live. You do not deserve a human death. You butcher

1:03:47two people for reasons I cannot begin to comprehend. I have wanted you to die, yet I am faced with a reality that it will not and cannot be enough. In order to heal, I must accept this and find a way to reconcile it against my own feelings. I will continue to beg for his life to be spared, however, or possible. I want you all to hear it from a man that wanted him dead. As a son to a man whose life was I did. His father, I will beg to anyone who will listen to spare his life. I don't think we should do it for me or him. I think we should do it because it's the right thing to do for our society. Of course, Tom is appealing and the legal fight will go on for years. But what lingers isn't just the courtroom drama and appeals. It's the contradiction. Tom wanted to be a good father. He wanted to prove he could do right by his son. He stayed in touch,

1:04:48leaned on him, even dreamed of settling down in a house where they could reconnect. But instead, he fell back into every pattern he swore he'd left behind. The lies, the violence, the selfishness that burned through everything in his path. And maybe the hardest part to make sense of is the question of whether Tom could have been telling the truth about John Mann. Maybe John was abusing Regina, like the detectives had suggested. And it triggered a traumatic reaction from Tom. Or maybe what happened is exactly as Tom described. John tried to evict Regina and she went at him, so Tom intervened. Even if parts of his story are true and noble, all of his following actions say the most. Tom's choices after that night spoke the loudest. He hid the bodies, tried to hire someone to burn the place down,

1:05:50dumped the dogs in the someone else's neighborhood, manipulated and lied to those he loved, dragged them into something horrible, and most importantly, never called police. Whatever happened in that house might have started with good intentions. But what followed were really, really, really bad choices and only a complete fucking idiot would make. Then again, this is Ohio. At the end of the day, we all have to be accountable for our choices. We all have to be responsible for what we decide to do. Otherwise, what the fuck are we doing here? Today, Tom's enough son is grown. He's built a life that has nothing to do with parma heights or with the crimes his father committed there. He's well-adjusted, stable, and in 2023 he got married. Whatever cycle Tom was trapped in, his son has escaped it. Good for him.

1:06:54And maybe that's the real ending here. Not the death sentence, not the deaths, not the appeals, but the fact that even if something so violent and tragic, like a phoenix rising from the ashes, a different kind of life is actually possible. That's going to do it for another one. Thanks for joining us. If you'd like to show head

1:08:05on over to swordenscale.com, get the app, get plus. We'll see you next week's day, say.