Episode 394: Life, Joy, and Meaning in Uncertain Times with Marisa Renee Lee

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2:05to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Sheffrier. And I'm Elise Hugh and we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums. And today we have a return guest on the show, Marissa Renee Lee. She is so lovely and so interesting. And she's out with a new book. And she's out with a great new book. Her new book is about uncertainty, which I feel like in these times is like very salient. Unprecedented now-precedented times. Everything's unprecedented until it becomes unprecedented. Yes, exactly. Now we just live in chaos. It's so true. So true. Speaking of living in chaos, how is your decluttering project going? Okay, I have a big update. Okay. Let me set this up for you. So on Sunday, I took Henry to Kid Space, which is a children's museum here in LA. And Matt didn't come with us.

3:07And he was like, what am I going to do while you guys are gone? I was like, well, you could get started on a hallway closet. And he was like, yeah, okay, I'll do that. The hall, let me just like the hallway closet is one of those like sliding door, like region closets. And it had literally just become a repository of randomness and like stacks of things. Like you could barely even, also the doors were off the track. So like you could barely even get into it. And then outside the closet was all this other stuff that should have been in the closet. Like our Costco snacks, you know, you didn't dare slide the door open for fear that the door wouldn't close again. Yeah, there was like nowhere to put this stuff. It was so bad. So I got home and Matt had made a big dent. Like I had filled, I started feeling a huge garbage bag.

4:07And like it looked really good. And he was like, and he like investigated, he'd done research on bins that we should get to put in there to organize stuff. And I was like, this is great. I'm getting these from Target right now. So then I got to work on it. And it's now done. Well, pretty much the vast majority of it done. And everything is out of the hallway. Holy cow, that's big, that's big. Yeah, you're almost ready to just show your house. You should have have an open house. I mean, that's huge. Who are you? Thank you. I have a hallway closet like that. And it's, I sort of like that it's just like the junk closet. Because when, when in doubt, I'll just throw stuff in there. But now you have so much more space in yours. Well, you know, this was also the function of this closet. But it was not, it was, it was non-functional. It was overflowing.

5:07It was overflowing. So I said to Matt, I have this one friend who loves like before and after decluttering pictures or like before. So I was like, you have to take, and we always forget to take before pictures. So I was like, you have to take some before pictures. So he took some before pictures. And now we have some after pictures. So maybe I'll share those on the Patreon. I don't think I'm ready to have those be like for wide public consumption. But I feel like the Patreon is very intimate. Yes, it's like how Charlene Kay was talking about ASMR triggers. And some people really like the nails on the container. And she really likes a soft voice telling you everything's going to be okay. Your friend likes before and after photos of decluttering. We like what we like. Exactly. That's right. That's right. I'm not going to yuck anyone's yum. Right. That's rule number four of the Hugh Styles family. Don't yuck my yum. Don't yuck your yum. So yeah, if you quizzed all the girls, they'd be like, oh yes. And rule number four, don't yuck anyone's yum.

6:10I mean, I think that's like a good, a good policy in general. Yes, except when I get called out on it. Well, also sometimes it's like, well, you know what? I am going to yuck your yum because what you are describing is disgusting. You know what I mean? My son likes to pick his nose and eat it. I am going to yuck that yum. Like, you know, I get it. As one should. As one should indeed. What's going on with you? I have some travel coming up. So I will be in St. Louis, the city of my birth. Though, as I have mentioned, I probably won't see it because I'll be in a volleyball gym. And what else? I had this recent conversation with Amy Chang, who is a beauty influencer. Since we do talk about serums, she's very glowy. She's very glowy and dewy. And I know this because I just saw the video of the interview, a video clip of the interview. And we have this great conversation about a lot of Asian beauty standards and we go into

7:13the double eyelid surgery, which she got when she was young, I think. And now she said that once she became a mom and she looked into the eyes of her daughter. She was like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have changed my face because it's like she could see her original face, you know, in her daughter. And she was like, oh, it was it was a lovely face the way it was. You know, I shouldn't have messed with my container. And so anyway, that's how she kind of learned where she wanted to draw the line on some of the cosmetic fixes that we can avail ourselves of these days. And but we do get into the history of double eyelid surgery and how a lot of folks thought it was that Asians were seeking it in order to look more white when, you know, flawless and the research for flawless really complicates that because it turns out a Japanese surgeon had actually invented it in 1897, like 60 years before this American marine surgeon claims he did it. And because he was operating on sex workers in Korea during the Korean War who were servicing

8:15American GIs. And so he's like, I came up with this so I could quote unquote open the eyes of some of these sex workers. And it turns out, no, actually a Japanese doctor had come up with it. Wait, it's so interesting. And he did it to make Japanese people look more like other Japanese people. They weren't chasing any sort of Western standard. They were chasing the standard that half of all Asian people are born with, which are double eyelids. So it's like, wait, why are you trying to look? Why wouldn't you want to just be looking like your, you know, Aunt May or whoever, who are double eyelids? And so we get into that, which was fun and interesting. Some of y'all probably follow Amy anyway because I think she's pretty big. She's been, she started as a beauty blogger back in the days of blogs in the early arts and then has continued to ride that content creator train into now social video, which is kind of the, the mode of influencing. What else is going on? Oh, and we went to an Oscar party and Oscar watch party.

9:17Oh, fun. Over the weekend. And there were two separate viewing areas. There's like kind of the front house TV and then a back house TV. And so, and I just never parked in the right place because I'm always standing by the food. That's where you'll always find me at a party. I like to, I like, if I'm going to park anywhere, it's going to be by the charcootery and I'll just be standing there and you can come and see me instead of me going to you. That's a hot tip. That's, that's where I'll be. And, um, but then Rob found his seat in kind of the back guest house area. And I went up to him at some point and he's just like all teary-eyed because apparently the in-memorium segment was very moving because they had like a special tribute to Rob Reiner, Rachel McAdams did one for Diane Keaton, but the one I'm thinking of it, oh, Argyll, Catherine O'Hara, too, is the one that, yeah, that one really apparently broke him. And so, anyway, there were just like a lot of people to memorialize at last week's ceremony.

10:21And so, I missed that segment because I think I was eating cheese crisps. But they're having a good cheese crisps. Yeah, so I got, I've got that going on for me. I've got that going, which is nice. Yeah, so, you know, holding it down here, I'm going to update the Forever 35 newsletter soon because our project manager, Sammy, has done a bit of a data analysis around up of all Y'all's favorite things that we have mentioned on the show or recommended in our gift guides. And so, that is in a forthcoming newsletter. Stay tuned, amazing. Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back. You know, Elise, I feel like our listeners know that we both love a good hunt.

11:23Like, yes, you know, there's something just so satisfying about sifting through all these like website pages until you find the perfect thing, whether it's like a skincare hack or clothing item. And I will say, deep hop never lets us down. It's such a great place to go to find hard to find items. This branded segment is brought to you by deep hop, where we have both found some of our favorite closet additions lately from rare vintage to the one that got away after it sold out. We've also been loving the discovery aspect. I know, Dore, you said that you like, we're exploring deep hop and could find really specific items. Yes. But then also you'd be looking for one thing and then discover something completely different. Yes, I would look for specific things and then it would tell me about other things that I might like. And I was like, oh, I actually do like these other things. I feel like I have a deep hop find of the month.

12:24Okay, do share. I'm wearing them right now. They are pants from Nilly, Loton and they're amazing. And also the seller's shop. So you can like click through to the person's shop of whatever you're looking at and see what else they're selling. And I was like, oh, this shop is like closet goals. You know, like all of her pieces were so unique. I loved all the brands she was selling. And just like, I loved her vibe. Like I was like, this, this chick has cool style and her stuff is in my size, which was amazing. And then you can follow them also. Yeah, I, you know, I've talked about deep hop on the show and I've been yaps because I've been a deep hop seller for a bit. My daughter Ava is a deep hop seller. But it's only more recently where I've been shopping for deep hop items myself. Yeah. And something that I'm super into because we are kind of each sharing a fine of the month is that vintage coach, which is said to be made in a higher quality than like more new era modern

13:27coach. Vintage coach is very big again. And I really love the quality of their older leather bags from like us and the 90s. And there's a lot of those options on deep hop. So I just recently found a vintage coach clutch that's in pink. Yeah. I think I sent you a photo with super cute. And yeah. And then I can wear it with like a jumpsuit or I can dress it down to it's, it's been an awesome little handbag to carry, especially like recently. I was just in the desert. And had kind of just a white dress on it. I needed a pop of color. It was perfect for that. Yeah. I love that you got an accessory too because I know I have become really picky about what I actually like let take up space in my closet. Because it's kind of like, am I going to wear this consistently or is it just more stuff that is taking up space? Yeah. No, exactly. And these pants,

14:30I mean, I've worn them multiple times a week since I got them. They're literally the perfect pants. I also got this great sweatshirt. I was wearing it the other day and you were like, oh, that's a cute sweatshirt. And it was, I, yeah, it was the sweatshirt. One of the sweatshirts I got on deep hop. It was this cute Farm Rio Adidas collab that I just kind of missed when it came out. And like now you can't, you know, you can't buy it new. So I was so excited to find it on deep hop and at least you're not the only one who has complimented it. It's like this great pop of color. So I was so excited to find it. Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. And then on the flip side, I know this isn't the only point of deep hop, but I also love being a seller on there. Yes. Because getting rid of stuff feels sort of cathartic, but it's not just like I'm putting things into trash bags. I'm actually taking items that I have really loved, pre-loved or had sentimental value to me, but I have either outgrown or I don't have space for that particular item

15:32anymore or piece of clothing. And then I know that when I sell on deep hop too, that it's going to somebody who really loves it. Yeah. Because often like we go through a negotiation also, you know, you put up your item at a certain price and then you can offer it at a discount or people can offer, make an offer to you. And so you know that like somebody who's looking for whatever you have is also going to like take good care of it or totally very intentionally seeking it out. Yes. And so I've gotten to really a enjoy that somebody else is going to find a second life, you know, with a product of mine, but also it's lovely to connect with people while re-homing some of these older pieces of mine. Yeah, you know, it's going to like live on. The other thing that I heard about deep hop and maybe you can confirm this, but that there are no seller fees. That's right. There's no seller fees. The payouts come very quickly. Once I've done the harder work of the closet clean out, I just head to deep hop and I can list everything. I can list everything

16:36pretty easily and quickly just on my phone with the app. The process is simple and it's always so rewarding to see someone buy a piece that I loved and lately, or I'm actually surprised. I've talked about this with Rob's clothing. Like he has these vintage teas that I didn't know had value on deep hop, but actually have a lot of value. And so that's okay. I just think it's rewarding, you know, that somebody can find a piece and then I know that it's going to somebody who's going to value it as much as either I did or somebody my family did. Totally. So you can download the deep hop app and list your first item in seconds. It's so easy and a great way to make money with no selling fees. Thank you, deep hop, for making this branded segment possible. Well, should we introduce our guest? Yes, let's not delay. Mercer Renee Lee is the award-winning and best-selling author of grief is love and her new book is waiting for Don. And it reflects

17:40on her experiences with chronic illness and grief, offering solace to folks living with all kinds of uncertainty. She describes herself as a longtime rabble rouser of social healing and equity. And she was previously a deputy director in the Obama White House. And she is now CEO of Beacon Advisors, a social impact consulting firm. And she lives with her husband and son in New York. And her book is out on April 7th. So pre-order it now, head to your local bookstore and tell them you want to read it. And yeah, it's really good. It's really thoughtful and a great book. So all right. And before we get to Marissa, just a reminder that you can visit our website forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are also on Instagram at forever35podcast. You can join our Patreon at patreon.com slash forever 35. Shop our favorite products at shopmy.us slash forever 35. And you can call or text us at 7-815-910-390.

18:45And email us at forever35podcast at gmail.com. And we will be right back. If you're ready to make home cooking, look easy. Try Hello Fresh. Turn on some good music. I like to cook to Leon Bridges and get cooking. Before the food even arrives though, you get to choose from more than 35 high protein recipes each week, including new Mediterranean and GLP one-friendly options. Hello fresh. Doesn't just make the cooking look easy. It makes it easy to feel great with wholesome ingredients like sustainably sour seafood and 100% antibiotic and hormone-free chicken. There's now three times the seafood for no upcharge. Impress guests or treat yourself with new grass-fed steak rib eyes. Also, you can make meals with seasonal produce like pears, apples, and asparagus. I recently made the Hello Fresh One Pan sticky miso ginger salmon. So delicious. So fast. Crucially, it was very easy. I need stuff to be easy. Because when dinner tastes

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20:52Marissa Renee Lee, welcome back to forever 35. Thank you for having me. This is great. Yeah, it's great to have you back. Well, as you know, because you have been on the show before, I always start by asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have. So is there something you are doing right now that you would consider self-care? Yes. This is self-care and like a little bit long COVID recovery. I've gotten deep into breathwork. Like I have just gone like way into the deep end on all things breathing exercises. It ended up healing my asthma that I got as a part of the long go. Yeah, within about six months, I'm in this program. It's an app called MIO Health. And they are heavily focused on anyone who has any condition that impacts the nervous system. And they create like all of these different breathing techniques and you know, length of time that you breathe for as a part of recovery. And it's been a game changer. So I highly

21:56recommend, you know, even if you only have five minutes to yourself, just doing some basic diaphragmatic breathing, you feel better and a little bit more human. This is such a synchronicity that you brought this up. Yes. I have been suffering from asthma all week. It related to some sort of viral respiratory infection, but I have allergy related asthma anyway. So I have kind of asthma as an underlying condition that can crop up every once in a while. But I went to the doctor and she was like, take a deep breath. And I thought I did. And she's like, no, take a deep breath. Yeah. Yeah. That like that's what happened to me. I went to the doctor's once and she said the air is not circulating properly in your lungs. Like they are so tight. I was like, I don't even know what that means. I don't know what that means. It doesn't sound good. And she said I was so tight. Yeah. She's like, you're so tight. You're so I'm like, what does that mean? I just I can't breathe. Can you help me? Oh, but yeah, it takes time. But I swear it works. I will send the information when we're done recording this episode because it has helped a ton. Amazing. Well, my next question

23:01was going to be how are you doing and how are you feeling these days because those who have read the book, which is about to come out will know that you've really been through it with not only prolonged illness, but tragedy in your family. Yeah. It's been it's been an interesting couple of years. More challenging than I think I ever could have imagined. I got COVID for the first time in April of 2024. And I'll be honest, ladies, I genuinely thought I was one of those people that was just never going to get COVID. You know, we all know somebody who's in that right. I thought I was in that bucket. You know, I went on book tour for my first book. I had a kid in school, both he and my husband had had COVID multiple times and, you know, he's my baby. So, of course, I was taking care of him and I was fine throughout. And then it hit me and it hasn't fully left. I'm doing much better now. But, you know, in the beginning, it was everything from, you know,

24:02not being able to breathe like at one point in addition to the asthma and like my lungs being just completely blocked and not functioning properly. My larynx was blocked over 70%. So, like, I really was not breathing properly at all. I had like horrible chest pain, like unlike anything I had ever experienced, you know, like I would be driving my kid to school. And it would feel like that, like crazy heart pounding anxiety at the top of roller coaster. And this is just, you know, the 10-minute ride to daycare. Being on my feet was awful because a part of my long COVID is dysautonomia. And so, I just have really poor circulation. You'll see me drinking throughout this episode. It's electrolytes all day long. I couldn't like stand long enough to take a shower someday. It's like it was that extreme. So the fact that, you know, now I'm in a place where I can have this conversation with you all and enjoy it and not have it feel like this awful labor intensive thing is just,

25:06I mean, it's an enormous blessing. What would you advise people who think that they may have long COVID? Because I feel like this is a very like misunderstood. Yes. Illness. It's also a very politicized illness. You know, like there are people who still think that, you know, COVID was some sort of fabricated thing. And so long COVID couldn't possibly be real. Like it couldn't possibly exist. Wow. And I wish that were the case. But like, it's real, unfortunately. And so, you know, my, my number one piece of advice, if someone is listening, and they think that they have long COVID, you know, I want them to listen to their instincts. Because we, especially women, you know, we are so good at ignoring and downplaying our instincts and listening to other people instead of listening to our bodies. And I, I don't, I don't want you to do that. Like I want you to believe yourself and do whatever you have to do to find doctors who believe you and support you. Because there are a lot of really good doctors out there.

26:10There's a lot of really good research that's continuing to emerge. And I just, I don't want people to just stay stuck in a horrible like suffering place because they don't believe themselves or because other people don't believe them. Well, we are here to talk about your new book, which is called Waiting for Dawn, Living with Uncertainty. And kind of similar to Elise in the sense of like, this is a, this was an interesting moment for you to be talking about, you know, respiratory illnesses for her. An interesting moment for me to be talking about uncertainty because I do feel like uncertainty is something that I really struggle with. What was the origin of this book? Why did you want to write it? And what do you kind of hope people take away from it? Yeah. So this is not the book that I thought I was going to write a couple of years ago. I'm told that happens to writers all the time. I thought I was going to write a book about,

27:10you know, showing up when something challenging happens to someone you love. And it started out as my husband's mother, my mother-in-law, she was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer right before grief is love. My first book came out and my mom died from stage four breast cancer. So there was both the, you know, wanting to show up for him and like be a source of support from my extended family. And then also the like sort of trauma craziness of, oh my gosh, like, you know, he's going through the worst thing that ever happened to me. Like this is a little bit too much. And as we were going through that, my cousin, younger, much younger cousin, she went missing and it turned out she had been murdered by an abusive partner. And so that was like this whole other layer of unimaginable tragedy trauma violence, you know, all these things that I've never experienced before. And then a couple months later I get COVID and it turns into a lot of COVID. And suddenly it's like, okay, like, what is the book that I'm writing? Am I even going to be strong

28:15enough to write a book? You know, what is happening to my life right now? And my editor said, I want you to sit down and write about what you're feeling and what you're experiencing. Like, what is it like to be sick all the time every day? Wake up and pain. And so I started writing and, you know, within a couple of days had 10,000 words and quickly realized, oh, these are chapters. And what I'm writing about isn't what it's like to be sick. It's what it's like to be stuck in some sort of painful place with, you know, no clear ending. And how do you live well in the middle of that? You know, even though I was sick and weak and in pain, I was still going to go to like my fun friend's birthday party. You know, I was still going to find a way to write this book. I was still going to find a way to like be the best mom to my four year old son Bennett. I was definitely still going to go to the Beyonce concert. You know, like there were just things that I refused to let go of. And so it became like, you know, what does it look like to live a fall and at times

29:21even joyful and meaningful life while dealing with an ongoing hardship? And, you know, I think it can be job loss, divorce, infertility, obviously serious illness. Like it can be so many different things. It could also be living in a world where every time you turn around, there is some new fresh horror, like welcome to 2026 in America. And so I want people to take away like some guidance for how to do it. And it's not just, here's my story and like step by step how I think you should do it. It's more of a compass that is informed by both my story and research around uncertainty and, you know, dealing with hardship and trauma and grief. I want to get to the lessons and the takeaways for folks. But before that, you write about a concept called gray grief. Tell us what that is and how you learn to cope with it. Yes. So in my first book, grief is love. I was like, I need

30:28to redefine grief. I don't think we're thinking about it correctly. And so I redefined it as the repeated experience of learning to live in the midst of a significant loss. And with gray grief and, you know, there's period of uncertainty that I was living through, it was like, oh, what happens when like the loss is the life that you knew? You know, like what does that look like? How do we define that? And I realized that gray grief is the term for, you know, and seemingly unending period of uncertainty. You know, I thought about not only myself, but friends who are acting as caregivers for elder relatives. I thought about my friend Brian and his wife Sandra. When Brian was 38 or 39, they had just had their second child and he was diagnosed with ALS. And they are like figuring out how to live in the middle of that. And so I think of uncertainty as the persistent feeling of stress or overwhelm related to the unknown. And you're not in charge. Like you don't

31:33get to decide when this thing is over. You don't get to decide when it ends. The only thing that you have agency over is how you move through it. So yeah, it's not necessarily fun, but I promise if you read the book, you will at least laugh. For you, what does this look like on a day-to-day basis? Does this go back to the, you know, the breathing exercises that you were talking about in the beginning of our chat? Or, you know, what does this look like? No, that's a great question. So the breathing exercises are part of it because I find that, you know, that kind of like meditative work helps me to figure out what do I need today to live well. You know, like I had a moment last week where I was like, I just feel like I haven't had a lot of joy recently, you know, between the grind of the book promotion. And oh my god, in the Northeast, our kids have been out of school so much this winter, making my head explode a little bit. And then, you know,

32:35everyone in our house was sick at Christmas with the flu. And then I have an infection on top of the long COVID. And I was just like, I need to do something fun that's just for me. And so I committed to sitting down and watching a couple of episodes of Bridgerton. And then another day, I got into, oh my gosh, it was so good. And the month before that, it was obviously heated rivalry because I wasn't going to play this big whole throw moment. It's like, you know, I'm that like a couple weeks before that, I've gotten into watercolors. And I have no actual skill as an artist to be clear. But it's just so peaceful to like play with paints and water and color and, you know, just do fun little things. So it's like, those kinds of small indulgences that I can still handle in a sick body. Just taking a little bit of time out for them, it really does make a difference when you're dealing with something hard. You just like unlocked a memory

33:38for me, which is that during COVID, you know, when we, like in the very beginning, like the real early days of lockdown, I started doing paint by number kits. Oh nice. Yeah. And it was so relaxing. It was so satisfying to finish my number. And when you said, I mean, I think it sounds like what you're doing with watercolors is a little bit more creative, but I am not like an artistic person. So, so the just, you know, paint by numbers was sort of what I could handle. On a creative artistic level, but it was so satisfying. And I love that idea of, you know, doing something like that that is sort of meditative in and of itself. Yeah. You know, I'm like, oh, I should, I should go back to that. So thank you. Seriously. As adults in a period of uncertainty. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And like as adults, we don't take out enough time for play.

34:42Like almost everything that we do is tied to some specific outcome, whether it's caregiving for children or, you know, work milestones or whatever, but just having, you know, taking a half an hour an hour a week to do something that's just like fun and cool. The other one that I started doing and this was when the long COVID was worse and I was really having a hard time with screens, but was also having a hard time putting my phone down. I spend 30 bucks on this pod holder making kit. It's like a weaving loom. And the pod holders work really well. You know, it takes me, I don't know, 25, 30 minutes to make a pod holder that I can then actually use in my kitchen or like or give it as a gift. Yeah. Exactly. I love how you make gift so fun. So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back. Starting something new like a business is scary. So much can go wrong and there are so many things you don't even know, you don't know,

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36:48today at shopify.com slash forever 35. Go to shopify.com slash forever 35. That's shopify.com slash forever 35. Hey, this was Paige de Sorbo from Giggly Squad and today I want to talk to you about boost mobile. Quick question, why are we letting our phone bills bully us? Here's a money tip. Stop paying a carrier tax. When you bring your own phone and switch to boost mobile's $25 unlimited forever plan, you can unlock up to $600 in savings. That's real life money, not money trapped in a pricey phone bill. $600 is a trip, a shopping spree, or paying something off. Your money belongs in your life. You get unlimited data, talk, and tax for $25 a month with no contracts and no minimum line requirement. Your phone, your rules, had to boostmobile.com to switch today and unlock the savings you actually deserve. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience lower speed. Customers pay $25 per month while active on boost mobile unlimited plan. Savings claim based on a January 2026 boost mobile survey comparing average annual payments

37:49of major carrier customers to 12 months on the boost mobile unlimited plan. Visit boostmobile.com for details. It strikes me that this relates to a list that you made in your phone that you write about in your book called the 100. So, describe that for us and what you feel like you got out of it. Yeah. Okay, first of all, I have to confess, I think I might still be in the 90s. I don't know. I'm like, full disclosure, I always tell them myself. The 100 came out of a realization that like I am not good at putting myself first. I was a caregiver as a child. My mom first got sick when I was 13. I helped take care of her until she me died when I was 25. And then, you know, a couple of years later, I learned of my infertility and then spend a lot of

38:51time caring for my body, but like solely with the goal of having a baby, you know, not really caring for my body. And so, I just, I never really learned how to prioritize Marissa without like, lengthy explanations behind it. And so, I was like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to give myself a list because I'm also a controlling and like list loving person. I was like, I'm going to put, you know, in the notes section of my iPhone, I'm going to call it the 100 and I'm going to make myself get to 100 things that I do that are just for me. And it can be things that I say no to as well. You know, like it doesn't just have to be like, oh, I'm going to do the potholders or the painting. It can be like, no, I really don't want to do like whatever that thing is. Like, I know that that's going to be pushing myself too hard. And not in the way that like, you know, I pushed my body hard when I went to the cowboy carnival concert, but I didn't regret it. Like, it was amazing. So that's, that is what it is. Like, and when you are in these, these periods of

39:53uncertainty that forced you to learn how to live differently. Yeah. Having some sort of accountability around it. Like, I just found it very helpful to know that, oh, there's this thing on my phone and like, I have to get better. And I feel like part of why I haven't finished it is because it's become more of a natural habit. I just listened to myself more. Yeah. And then I like how you count things that you say no to as items on the list as well. Hell yeah. Again, especially as women, like, you're not good at that. And there's nothing to apologize for. Like, you're allowed to just say no. It's okay. You're allowed to just say no. No is a complete sentence. Exactly. Exactly. You can say no. Thank you. I think. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, you're allowed. Before we started recording, you mentioned that you're trying a new treatment for your long COVID. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about how that's going. Yeah. If you could just just share. Happy to share.

40:56Okay. So just to start for the last year and a half or so, maybe a little bit longer. I have been on the sort of original long COVID treatment called low dose, no track zone that has been hugely helpful. And I just want people to know that as, you know, if they're thinking that they might have long COVID, and somebody mentions it, like, it has absolutely helped me. But I felt like these last few months, I was just kind of hitting a wall. I had some infections in November, then I had the flu in December, then I get sick again in February. And it's just, it's hard being a sick person and also having a small child who plans germs for me coughs in your mouth. You know, like it's disgusting. Um, it's so the last time I saw my doctor a couple of weeks ago, she mentioned that there is a new treatment that she is having tremendous success with with her patients. Like she is as optimistic about this treatment as she is about the now track zone.

42:00It's called tern zapatine. It was what she said to me. And I was like, I don't know what that is, or how to spell it. And then she said, it's that bound. You know, it is one of the newer GLP ones. And it's administered in a modified like much lower dose. And because of the way long COVID works and how generally speaking, it causes a lot of inflammation in the body, the anti-inflammatory properties of the GLP ones work to reduce that inflammation. And people are just feeling much better. And she was like, you know, I get stuck. I understand. Yeah, she's like, I agree with you. If you want to try it, I was like, if I want to try it, I was like, you know, I want to try. Come on, you know me by now, doc, like sign me up. Like, what do I need to do? The only thing for me personally, I, I knew I couldn't give myself a shot. Like, I just, I'm not great with the needle stuff. Thankfully, I live with a man who is also a public health professor and like, teaches people how to drop blood and give shots. And so my husband,

43:05once a week, for it's only been two weeks, he, I get my third dose today. Actually, he gives me the shot while our four-year-old watches in horror. And it's totally fine. Like, in my case, the only, the only noticeable side effect, if you can even call it that, is right after it's injected, it feels a little bit like a bee sting. And I just put some ice on it. Ten minutes later, it's fine. And I just keep it moving. So I am incredibly grateful. So far, it's been like an amazing experience. And I felt a difference, honestly, within like 48 hours. Like, which I was like, is this possible? I see my trip to myself. And she was like, no, like, if it is going to work, generally speaking, you feel the effects pretty quickly. So we had to find some sort of solution because I know you would be grappling with that for the last few years. I want to ask you because you've been reflecting on this. And we are in such a time of uncertainty.

44:10Lord, what does comfort mean to you? That's a good question. I don't think, the first thing that came up for me is this, like, I don't think comfort means completely ignoring all of these external stressors and sources of uncertainty in our world. Yeah. Like a week and a half ago, we woke up and we're in a war. And then, you know, today, before I have time, I saw something about like a mass shooting in Detroit. I had a temple. You know, it's just like, it is, it is a non-stop barrage. And so I think comfort is about acknowledging those things, giving yourself space to feel empathy and compassion for the people who are most directly impacted, and then also holding some empathy and compassion for yourself. So while I don't think we should completely ignore and shut out, these various, you know,

45:13the multitude of horrors that are taking place in the world, we can't be doom scrolling 24-7 because that doesn't actually solve or help anything or anyone. And so figuring out what your boundaries are and how to take care of yourself in these moments of collective grief and uncertainty, I think is really important. And so what that looks like for me, I actually recently, for my birthday in January, I bought myself this thing called the brick. Have you heard about this? Yes. For your phone? Yes. Yes. And so for folks who don't know, it's like, I mean, it's like a little square magnet that sits on my fridge. And I have it set up so that numerous apps are just not allowed to be accessed on my phone when my phone is in brick mode. You know, you hold your phone up, scan it, it goes into brick mode, and it becomes more of like just a phone versus like this endless stream of information. And that has been really helpful because it's like, you know, figure out what's happening in the world, how you feel about it, how you can maybe help. And then

46:17you kind of just have to put it down, especially when there are other people that you're caring for in your house and your family when, you know, you're someone like me who's having to care for yourself extra. Yeah. And then once I've bricked, like I can hold space for the breathing exercises, for, you know, taking a bath, for taking a nap, like doing those comforting things because something that I think is important for people to recognize is stress accumulates. And the things that are happening in the world, they will add to whatever stress you are already feeling or experiencing in your personal life. And so making sure you figure out what boundaries look like, need to look like for you and what comfort looks like for you, I just, I think it's really important. When you take bath, do you have any like, yes, go to products that you love? Yes. I get it from Amazon. So I actually shifted from Epson salts to magnesium flakes because magnesium has a lot of,

47:18a lot of good like anti-inflammatory property. I mean, I'm obsessed with anti-inflammation. You go, I'll go, Ben. And when you dump them into the tub, like you feel more like you're floating, like it's like when you're, I don't know if you've ever been to like the Dead Sea and like it's so salinated, like the magnesium has that effect much faster than like bath salts do I found. So I buy these, like, ancient magnesium flakes off of Amazon. And that's been super helpful. Okay. I wanted to bring up one chapter of your book that again, like really resonated with me. And it's the one about asking for help. Yeah. I'd love to talk a little bit about that. Let's do it. Let's do it. How, how is asking for help connected with all of this stuff about uncertainty? And why is it important? We live in a culture that prizes individualism, individual effort, you know, pull yourself up by

48:23your bootstraps. Like I did this hard thing so you can do it to like, blah, every man, when one, when one throws themselves like all that kind of nonsense. And like it's just ridiculous. Like it's not real. Human beings evolved in community for a reason. Like this is how we are meant to be. This is how we are meant to live. It's what's best for us. It's what's best for our kids. It reduces stress, reduces isolation. You know, there's just so many things about it. And so I hate that we think that when life is hard or uncertain in some way, that we're meant to just figure it out for ourselves. Like you, you can't do that well. Like you literally can't agree. And so whether that help is free or paid, like you need help when these things happen. You know, I think about someone I'm really close with went through a very, very messy divorce at the start of the pandemic. And I think about if she didn't ask for help from family, you know, from the therapist,

49:25from people, you know, who were connected to our kids, like just how much harder it would have been. And I think about when my husband and I were navigating the uncertainty of all of the fertility stuff, like if we didn't have help through that, like it would have been so much more miserable, especially the losses. Like it would have been devastating. And then, you know, in our case, we ended up at the end pursuing adoption. And even having support in that process was really helpful because, you know, it's just a long drawn out thing. You get this checklist that's got like 30 impossible things on it, like FBI background checks, like, and you're like, oh my god, and this is crazy. And so I just have people, even that you can just complain to in the midst of that, is really helpful. So yeah, I am, I am very anti-going it alone because I just don't think it

50:25works. Like a recent example, I decided in the fall of 2024 that I was going to be open about the fact that I had long COVID. You know, I knew people were weird about it. And I was like, that's dumb. Like, this is real, I didn't sucks. And so I shared about it on Instagram and in my newsletter. And within about two hours, I had an email from this woman who was following me on Instagram because of my writing on grief. And that was helpful to her in her experience with long COVID. Oh no. And she got COVID in 2020. Yeah. And was like basically at the tail end of her, like, healing and recovery process. And she was like, you know, if I can be of help to you, you know, this is the name of my doctor, like, blah, blah. And I was like, I'm going to be seeing this doctor within the next two weeks. And that woman became my doctor. Like, and that's like, and we're now but good friends. And so I just, I don't want people to go to loan. And I think some of it is usually connected to shame. And like feeling like, you know, what's going on with me is like,

51:30weird or people are going to judge me about it or whatever. And it's just like just ignore those people. Yeah. They don't matter that much. Absolutely. And I feel like all of my relationships and my friendships and whatnot are so deepened by reaching out and asking for help, you know, exactly. All right. So we promised we were going to get to this. What do you feel like you learned? What are the big takeaways after writing this book and this exercise in living with uncertainty? Okay. So one of the big ones. And this is, this is still a tough pill to swallow, because I wish it wasn't the case. But there are some things that just have to be endured. Like, like, not everything has a quick or immediate fix to it. And that sucks. But that's just the truth. And so figuring out how to endure when you like faced with one of those types of

52:33problems is it's hard. But I think that's the only way through it. Another one and this one's more of a work in progress because I don't think anybody will ever describe me as a patient person. I am definitely a more patient person than I was a couple of years ago. I've also learned a lot and I was surprised by how much learning I had to do in this space, surprised and honestly a little bit embarrassed by how deeply committed I was to ableism and how much I didn't understand about disability and like the experiences of people who are disabled. And I'm like, you know, a little bit embarrassed by it still because, you know, my mom was disabled from the time I was 13. And so I thought, you know, I thought I was good. Like, I thought I had a really deep understanding, but until it's your body that doesn't work,

53:38it just, it's a completely different experience. And I will say, you know, the last one, and this is the last chapter in the book is probably just around hope. And that, you know, hope isn't this light, airy, nebulous thing that's similar to optimism. Like, hope is a very real thing that can drive us forward to lasting change if we remain committed to it. And so, figuring out what hope looks like for you and how to define that when you're dealing with a period of uncertainty is very important. Absolutely. I love that notion of hope as a verb, like as an action, you know, yes, yes. Marissa, this is fantastic. Where can folks find you? You mentioned your substack. Yes. Substack is called holding both. It's all about grief, joy, and everything in between. Online, I am Marissa and A. Lee everywhere. And waiting for Don is

54:42available everywhere. Books are sold. Thank you so much. It was great to see you and get to chat with you again. Thank you. This was so fun. Well, it was great to get to talk to Marissa again. She was so lovely. At least last week, you were going to do some healing because you were sick and you seem better. I am on the mend. I'm thankfully on the mend and I can tell because I'm sleeping better. Last week, I really felt like I was in a weeklong hangover. And it's true that they, oh, true what they say about the longitudinal studies that they've done on truckers who've had cumulative sleep loss. It's basically the same as a hangover, like just having alcohol in your system. And so I was really having a hard time last week and very cranky. And now I feel like me again, not more like me again. And so that's wonderful. And this week, because I have some soreness, probably because I was just laying down so much and coughing, I would like to get a massage or

55:48another massage. I recently got one, but I got a gift certificate. I got two spa gift certificates from different friends from my birthday in February. And so I'm going to try and use those. Hopefully in the next week, when I get back and I will report back, unless you know. Sounds great. Yeah, what about you? What was your intention and what are you going to intend? So my intention last week was to continue the office decluttering. And we did do a little office decluttering, but as I mentioned at the top of the show, the big decluttering this week was the hallway closet, which I'm so happy about. And then this week, I have, I'm playing in a tennis match on Saturday that is is a playoff match for the team. I'm on that it's like a level above where I like where I'm rated. There are just like not enough people available to play. So this other woman and I are playing in this playoff match. So like the best people of a level above.

56:54Oh, okay. So that feels like it might be tricky, right? I think it's going to be tricky. And my intention is to just like go in and have fun and not worry about. Yeah, you got to elicit a little bit. Just be like, I live for struggle. I love struggle. Exactly. So that is, you know, I get so caught up in like, oh, I got a win. And I have to like, I don't want to let my partner down and, you know, all these things. And I just want to go in with just like a chill attitude about it. So that is my intention for this week. And I will report back on how it went. Great. Awesome. Okay. Thanks, everyone. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dorisha Freer, and Elise Hugh. And produced and edited by Sam Hunio, Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partners, a cast. Thanks, everyone. Talk to you next time. Bye. You do it all. So why not get all the electrolytes?

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